Stop Looking for Shortcuts and Make Progress with Your Money

Summary

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The Ramsey Show – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Stop Looking for Shortcuts and Make Progress with Your Money
Date: June 8, 2026
Hosts: John Deloney & George Kamel, Ramsey Network

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Episode Overview

This episode revolves around the recurring theme of rejecting financial shortcuts and embracing steady, deliberate progress on the journey to wealth. John Deloney and George Kamel field listener calls covering a wide spectrum of money issues—credit card debt, student loans, supporting children in college, home purchases, anxiety about financial security, and more. The hosts emphasize the importance of behavioral wins, honesty with loved ones, and making tough, sometimes counter-intuitive choices in the face of inflation and life’s curveballs. Consistent with Ramsey principles, the hosts advocate for the debt snowball, building emergency funds, budgeting, clear family communication, and strict avoidance of debt consolidation traps.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Rejecting Shortcuts: Debt Consolidation and the Psychology of Paying Down Debt

[00:39] Caller: Rhonda (York, PA) | [03:14]
Rhonda, deeply stressed and juggling caretaking, work, and $19,000 in credit card debt, asks about consolidating her debts for "peace of mind." The hosts urge her to avoid debt consolidation, as it can feel good “on paper” but undermines important behavioral wins.

• Key Insights:
  • Debt consolidation offers only the illusion of progress—“it makes you feel like you've solved the problem when you’ve just moved it around” (George, 06:28).
  • The “debt snowball” works because “the psychology of a whole bunch of little wins... give you a tailwind over time” (John, 11:10).
  • Take care of yourself first: if you don’t “fill your own pitcher,” you’ll have nothing left to give.
  • Seek out every support program possible as the current situation is “noble… but unsustainable” (John, 08:33).

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2. Family & Financial Boundaries: Helping Adult Children

[23:40] Caller: Amy (Gulfport, MS) | [25:27]
Amy and her husband disagree about ongoing support for their college-age daughter’s increasing “living expenses.” The hosts identify this as a marriage problem rather than a financial one.

• Key Insights:
  • Vague promises (“we’ll help”) lead to blurred boundaries and resentment.
  • Over-rescuing a child strips them of the ability to become resilient (“Struggle connected to love is one of the greatest gifts we can give our kids” — John, 26:50).
  • The solution: Agree as parents, establish clear boundaries, communicate calmly and with love, and let your child face natural consequences.

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3. Negotiating Raises & Employee Value

[15:22] Caller: Christina (Anchorage, AK) | [17:27]
Christina, debt-free and nearing retirement, is offered a $30k retention bonus after mentioning dissatisfaction with raises.

• Key Insights:
  • If your boss offers a big bonus out of the blue, you’re almost certainly undervalued.
  • Retention bonuses often function as “golden handcuffs”—demand clarity on any contract or claw-back provision (George, 19:27).
  • Counteroffer: Propose a direct raise instead of locked-in bonuses, keeping flexibility as plans may change before the bonus fully vests.

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4. Home, Land, and Emotional Decisions

[32:48] Caller: Marie (Greensboro, NC) | [34:47]
Marie considers buying land next to her home to “control” what gets developed.

• Key Insights:
  • If you can pay cash (using brokerage funds, not retirement), and it’s a small portion of your net worth, then “green light.”
  • The hosts nudge her to consider all options, including selling and downsizing, especially as she ages and maintenance becomes a challenge.

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5. Gen Z Financial Anxiety & Over-Optimization

[45:04] Caller: Avery (Portsmouth, NH) | [47:49]
Avery, a 24-year-old “single Pringle,” is obsessed with budgeting, fearful of her financial future, and ruminating on worst-case scenarios from her upbringing.

• Key Insights:
  • Anxiety signals real lived experience and deserves compassion, not shame.
  • “Rumination is a complete and utter waste of time…you can practice over time to take back control” (John, 47:49).
  • Build community, commit to regular exercise, and learn to trust yourself—sometimes, stop budgeting for a month to realize you’re not going off the rails (advice for someone already highly disciplined).
  • Quotes:
    • “I want you to be in your apartment only to sleep—get out and see the world!” (John, 49:57)
    • “I think Avery doesn’t trust herself. I’m gonna prove to you that you are trustworthy.” (George, 52:06)

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6. The Realities of Home Ownership: Double Wide & Value

[108:44] Caller: Greg (Charlottesville, VA)
Greg considers buying the manufactured (double-wide) home he's been renting, questioning if it will appreciate.

• Key Insights:
  • The land appreciates; the manufactured home generally does not.
  • Don’t let the urgency of a landlord’s ultimatum drive a long-term decision.
  • “Rent is temporary and this home is a long-term decision” (George, 114:14).
  • Always get a full home inspection and consult an expert on legal/titling issues.

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7. Student Loan Forgiveness Fantasies & Hard Truths

[70:49] Caller: Kathleen (Indianapolis, IN) | [73:48]
Kathleen hopes her $90,000 student loan will be “forgiven in four years” but isn’t clear on program requirements.

• Key Insights:
  • Forgiveness programs can change or evaporate entirely; don’t pin your future on them.
  • “I would way, way more trust the woman in the mirror than…what the federal government’s going to do in four years” — (John, 74:42).

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8. Emotional Decisions: Should I Sell My Home?

[85:40] Caller: Stephanie (Manhattan, KS) | [90:39]
Stephanie is emotionally attached to a former primary home now used as a rental. Facing infertility, they could sell and use the equity for treatments and stability.

• Key Insights:
  • Don’t let nostalgia block needed progress—sometimes selling is “way more life changing than keeping it” (George, 91:55).
  • The “baby steps” offer peace and flexibility for life’s messes.
  • Profound moment: “Imagine 24-year-old you fixing up this house so that 35-year-old you, about to be a mom, can have a paid for home and peace.” (John, 90:39)

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9. Best Practices for Inheritance, Teaching Kids, and Giving

[95:14] Caller: Aubrey (Charleston, SC) | [97:20]
Aubrey’s 11-year-old son gets $1,100 from selling a rare Pokemon card. The son wants to split the money among giving, saving, spending, and gifting.

• Key Insights:
  • Use windfalls as teaching moments for generosity, balance, and long-term goals.
  • Guide but don’t override; “let them make mistakes with $1,000 at age 11 rather than $100,000 at 31.”
  • Encourage well-roundedness: “Teaching someone to be well-rounded and balanced is one of the most difficult things you can do” (George, 104:21).

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10. Facing a Terminal Diagnosis & Providing for a Young Family

[116:58] Caller: James (Boston, MA) | [118:26]
James, 20, with a terminal illness, asks whether to buy a home now or wait for better financial readiness to best care for his fiancée and child.

• Key Insights:
  • Time, not property, is your most precious resource—prioritize presence, family, and her education/career.
  • “The last thing I would do is chain myself to a payment. Leave her with flexibility, not a mortgage.” (John, 119:50)
  • Build up savings, keep expenses low, don’t rush into homeownership.
  • Confirmed: life insurance would not be attainable post-diagnosis, but consider guaranteed-issue or other fallback options.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Sometimes the greatest gift we can give other people is to say no.” — John Deloney, [02:39]
• “What’s overwhelming you is a math problem, but it feels emotional.” — George Kamel, [04:41]
• “The debt snowball…has been studied. Even Harvard Business Review said, Dave Ramsey’s right.” — George, [12:28]
• “Struggle connected to love is the greatest gift we can give our kids. What’s cruel is leaving them weak and alone.” — John, [26:50]
• “Your body’s alarm system is going off because it’s working perfectly… you’re not crazy.” — John, [46:17]
• “No one’s coming to save you.” — George, [79:11]
• “Margin and psychological wins are way more important than arbitrage and leverage.” — John, [93:20]

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Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Caller / Topic | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------| | 03:14 | Rhonda: Caregiver stress, debt consolidation | | 23:40 | Amy: College expenses, boundary-setting | | 15:22 | Christina: Retention bonus, salary negotiation | | 32:48 | Marie: Should I buy land next door? | | 45:04 | Avery: Gen Z anxiety, over-budgeting | | 70:49 | Kathleen: Student loan forgiveness hopes | | 85:40 | Stephanie: Sell or keep past home, infertility | | 95:14 | Aubrey: Teaching a child with windfall money | | 108:44 | Greg: Manufactured home purchase | | 116:58 | James: Young parent, terminal diagnosis, stability |

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Final Thoughts

The overarching message: there are no shortcuts to financial peace or wealth. Each caller’s story illustrates that sustainable progress happens through clarity, community, discipline, and tough but honest conversations—with yourself, your partner, your kids. The Ramsey approach never wavers: focus on behavior over math perfection; cut up the credit cards; build a budget; communicate openly; and embrace the “hard, boring thing”—this is how you win with money and life.

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Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

This is an ad for BetterHelp. Stress from money problems doesn't just stay in your bank account. It shows up everywhere in your life. Talking to someone can help you sort it out. Go to betterhelp.com Ramsey to get 10% off. Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today.

[John Deloney]

What's up, America? America Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. John Deloney joined by the one and only gangster George Camel squad to York, Pennsylvania and talk to Rhonda. Help me, Rhonda. Help. Help me, Rhonda. What's up?

[Caller]

I hope you can help me. How are you doing, George and John?

[John Deloney]

We're doing great. We're doing great. What's up?

[Caller]

I'm really struggling and I was wondering if it would benefit me to get a loan to pay off all my debt except for the house in order to give me a little breathing room.

[John Deloney]

You sound terrified. Are you okay?

[Caller]

Just have a lot going on in my life.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, you sound like it. Take a, take a deep breath for me.

[Caller]

I'm trying to help my brother take care of my mom, trying to work a full time job. I get up at 3 o' clock in the morning so that I can be a mom's by four, that my brother can leave for work. And then I get my mama and take her to daycare and then I go to work and I don't get off till 5, 6 o' clock in the evening and I travel over 65 miles a day to do all this.

[John Deloney]

So, and let me interrupt you here, okay. Whatever path you're on, doing this is noble and pretty amazing and it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Kamel]

How long has this been going on?

[Caller]

Until just over a year.

[John Deloney]

Okay. I always want you to push pause on. I have to, I want you to really dig into that. Let's get into your money challenges right now, what you're facing financially. And if we have time, we can loop back before the radio break, we can loop back and talk through this idea of I have to.

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

If you, if you don't. My George and I have great friend named Will Guidera and he's, he told me this. He's a, he's a famous restaurateer and he said if, if his staff doesn't spend time to go fill up their pitcher before their shift starts, they have nothing to serve their customers with. And if you're not taking care of yourself and you end up in the hospital, you end up collapsing, you end up in a wreck at 3:30 in the morning because you're exhausted, then you're unable to help yourself, you're unable to help your brother, you're unable to help your mom. Okay, so sometimes the greatest gift we can give other people is to say no. Okay, let's. Let's circle back to your money challenges.

[George Kamel]

So how much debt do you have?

[Caller]

19,000. What kind of debt?

[George Kamel]

Break it down for me. What are the types and what are the balances?

[Caller]

It's. It's all credit card debt.

[George Kamel]

So 19,000 is across a couple of credit cards?

[Caller]

Yes. And then I have a house. That's 26,362.

[George Kamel]

Well, the mortgage will leave alone. For now, let's focus on the consumer debt by itself. How much are you bringing home every month?

[Caller]

Month. If do I need to. Do I want to count overtime? Because I don't. I don't always have overtime. I've been blessed that I've been able to get a little bit in.

[George Kamel]

You don't have to count it.

[Caller]

My brain.

[George Kamel]

We'll go without that for now.

[Caller]

Would be 2800.

[George Kamel]

How much of that is the mortgage? What does that cost you?

[Caller]

Mortgage is 1126.

[George Kamel]

So we're approaching half your income just immediately out the door from that paycheck to the mortgage. And then you've got the credit card bills. What are the minimum payments across all of those?

[Caller]

I think that is 632. Wow.

[George Kamel]

So then you got 1,000 bucks left to do everything else. Utility bills, food, groceries, insurance, you name it.

[Caller]

Correct.

[George Kamel]

So that's part of it. Part of the reason you can't breathe right now is a mathematical equation. There's not enough income coming in to cover the bills and knock out the debt, which is probably why you turn to the credit cards. Right. There was a deficit. And the credit card company says, here, rhonda, here's a $10,000 line of credit. Have at it. We'll help you.

[Caller]

Yeah, it's a. It's about six different cards.

[George Kamel]

Okay. Are you still using those cards every month or can you make your bills work with your. With your income?

[Caller]

Right now it'd be seven different cards. And now I haven't been using my cards. I've been good. I've been trying to make it on. On just what I have.

[George Kamel]

That's amazing progress. That's a huge start. Because part of the issue of getting out of debt is most people are still going into it while trying to get out. So back to your original question. Should I take a loan out to pay off this other loan, this, these credit card debts? I wouldn't do that because it makes you feel like you've solved the problem when you've just moved it around and potentially made it worse. Because now you've got a debt consolidation loan of just one payment and now you go to attack this $19,000 mountain instead of debt snowballing it with the smallest balance. So what's your next smallest balance? Credit card debt? The smallest card balance, is it 500 bucks?

[Caller]

I was just thinking it would give me a little piece that I only had to write one bill out or pay one bill.

[George Kamel]

Yeah, yeah. It's overwhelming to keep up with seven different bills. But debt consolidation, it, it could make the problem worse in a lot of other ways. So I'd rather you have these on

[Caller]

auto, get a personal loan, but I wouldn't have to do like that consolidation and I could get a better rate. But my lo. My next lowest, I just got to pay it off. My next list is 1300.

[George Kamel]

1300. Okay, great. And that's what I think we need right now is a little bit of progress. Because you've probably felt hopeless for a while now, probably for the last year as you've been just clawing through all of this.

[Caller]

Before all this happened, I was making really good progress and I had a second job and then all this happened.

[John Deloney]

Is there a possibility that you can go to making this drive three days a week and your brother can pick up the other two?

[Caller]

I can't because I'm there so he can leave for work. That's the only reason I have to be there at 4 o' clock in the morning is he's a truck driver and in order to get his loads and runs in for the day, he has to leave at 4.

[George Kamel]

What's the long term plan to take care of her?

[Caller]

Well, we're on a program where we're supposed to be able to get assistant like to come into the home, but we only because of the 4 o' clock in the morning thing, nobody wants to take it.

[John Deloney]

Is it possible that you can move her into your home for a while, for a season?

[Caller]

I'd still have to run to New Oxford to take her to daycare. I don't know that she would be. She has dementia and I don't know that that would be good for her, you know, being in her element.

[John Deloney]

I want you to pursue not just one support program, but I want you to pursue every possible support program, SSI benefits, Social Security benefits. I want you to knock on every door because you're doing is so good and so noble and it's unsustainable. These crazy, insane, maddening, rising gas prices are crushing you. That right, the cost of groceries is crushing you on top of just the schedule you're keeping. Got to take care of yourself so you can take care of those you love.

[George Kamel]

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[John Deloney]

Hey George, the last caller we just took. I want to dig in on two things real quick because I think one of her core questions she asked was I have to make seven different credit card payments every month. My life would be easier if I just went and got it. Sound like her credit was good enough to do this. I just want to run down to a credit union and get one loan, cover all this stuff. And I just want to make one payment a month. And I can even make a case mathematically for that to work. She might get a lower interest rate at a credit union than all these different credit cards. It's been my experience that what looks good on paper doesn't always play out in the real world. And what I mean by that is psychologically you can get exhausted. I got so many nickel and dime things to do and it's, it's every month it's a beating getting out my checkbook or getting online and trying to figure out what's the payment here. And what's this one? I just want to make one payment a month. And I get that, especially if I can make a mathematical case for it. But it's been my experience. And tell me if you're. If I'm wrong, psychologically speaking, what we miss is a whole bunch of little wins that give you a tailwind over time. And so what we're asking people to do often is not. People can beat me up all day for the math. What I'm trying to do is give you a psychological win so you can get through this thing quicker. Because what I've seen in my own life, in person after person, is they consolidate everything, get one giant mountain. They take 10 steps up that mountain, and they just say, ah, forget it. It's too high now. Right. It feel. It feels insurmountable. Or they pay for five months and that mountain is still pretty dang big. And they just are like, ah, I'm out. And so there's something about the psychology of a whole bunch of little wins.

[Caller]

Right?

[George Kamel]

Yeah. I mean, the debt snowball has been studied. I mean, even Harvard Business Review came out and said, dave Ramsey's right. The debt snowball method is the best way to pay off debt. Because we know it's 80% behavior, it's 20% head knowledge. We all know maybe we shouldn't go into debt at 23% APR with Capital One. And yet millions of Americans do it.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

And then we get desperate and so we turn to what? More debt. We don't look in the mirror and say, oh, that's the solution. That person, that person's ability to create an income, to get on a budget, to cut the expenses, to. To sacrifice. That's the solution. Not moving the pile over and then going, I feel better now.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Kamel]

And then next month, the payment still comes due and you still can't afford the payment. And that was the problem that Rhonda was experiencing. She barely could afford her bills. And so it feels like that's one piece that could help, and it might help a tiny bit, but it's not going to solve the underlying issue.

[John Deloney]

And I also want to call out. She's a perfect example of.

[Caller]

Of

[John Deloney]

how the cost of living, this increase in gas prices, this increase in inflation that just keeps sticking around, the increase in cost of groceries for somebody like her, it's easy for me to get kind of callous and to say, well, you should have planned better. Whatever. Here's a woman trying to take care of her mom. Her and her brother are switching night shift to Day shift. He's working his butt off, too. These are noble people. And she's trying to keep her mom okay. Until somebody will show up as a part of some government program to help out with a mom who's got dementia. And then everything goes up 20 bucks a week, which turns into 80 bucks a month, which turns into, we don't have that kind of money. Right. And so, man, this inflation's real. And the pain people are feeling at home with their groceries, with their. Like, I went. I went home shopping with a family member recently to. To make their first home purchase. What was going for? 355. 345. 345, 000. Just a few years ago, I wouldn't have paid 200 for. I would have walked out. And so things have shifted very, very fast. And there's a very real weight to this. And so if you're listening to this and you're feeling like you're going crazy, you're not. You're not. These are real expenses. These are real challenges. And at the same time, we need to get involved. Right.

[George Kamel]

And as Dave says, you don't get a pass on math. Like, your income is still your income. And the bills went up. We have a problem here.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

And sometimes it's more income is the solution. Sometimes it's cutting some expenses. Sometimes it's drastic sacrifices.

[John Deloney]

Right.

[George Kamel]

Moving your entire family, selling the home, whatever it may be. But it's the reality. If you want to get to where you're going in today's America, you might need to be more drastic than you would have five years.

[John Deloney]

And you don't want to. But we got a math problem, and it's a painful, ugly. Just a gnarly math problem affecting everybody. Let's go out to Anchorage, Alaska, and talk to Christina. Hey, Christina. What's going on?

[Caller]

Hello. How are you guys?

[John Deloney]

Awesome. Running a scam called a podcast. It's the best.

[Caller]

I. I'm like, a little bit of a fan girl. I listen all the time, and husband and I are on baby step number four, so thank you, guys.

[John Deloney]

I'm a fan girl of George, too, so I feel it. I feel. So what's up? What's your question?

[Caller]

Yep, let me pop. Let me just. So it's kind of a weird one. We're doing well financially. We don't have any debt. We truly live by the baby steps. We just never carry debt. The only thing we have debt for is our house. So that's great. We're working towards retirement. My job, I Have a job. That's an awesome job. I work from home most of the time. I sometimes will go in a few days a week. If they need me. I've got an opportunity to perhaps take a promotion, which would be in the office there. We're still working on that. But anyway, I had mentioned when I was in the office the other day, like, hey, how come we never get annual raises? Like, we almost have to threaten to go somewhere else before they'll give us a raise. And then next thing I know, my boss was calling and saying, hey, I heard you're being recruited. I'd like to give you a $30,000.

[George Kamel]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

How many?

[Caller]

She said, I'd like to give you a $30,000 retention bonus for three years. And I.

[George Kamel]

Per year. Or is that 10k a year for three years?

[Caller]

10k? Yeah, 10k a year for three years, all at once upfront. So probably some pretty high taxes. And I guess my thought process is, well, we don't plan on being in Alaska in three years. We plan on retiring. My husband's going to retire in about two and a half years, and I don't know if there's a contract that's going to go with this. It hasn't. It was just a phone call that came to me two days ago. So I guess my question is, do I. Should I counter and go, hey, why don't you just give me a raise? Like, why are we doing. I mean, I'm not going any. I wasn't going anywhere. I just kind of mentioned that in passing, that because they don't. They don't do annual reviews, you know.

[John Deloney]

Well, I've got. Man, I've got so many questions. Question number one is, if this is such a wonderful job in a wonderful company, have you picked your head up a little bit just to look around and see what your market value is? I don't know. Hardly any boss that will just pick up a phone and call an employee and say, like, hey, you want 30,000 bucks? I know that's almost unheard of. That tells me you're worth substantially more than you're being paid.

[Caller]

Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. I. I believe that I am, actually. I know that I am. I, you know, I've been in the business for a long time. I've got knowledge, I've got, you know, and I know that they. They would like to keep me.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

For all of those reasons.

[John Deloney]

Do you.

[Caller]

Would.

[John Deloney]

Would. Is there a number that you would leave for or. You're this close to retiring. You're just Going to write it out no matter what.

[Caller]

You know, I hadn't really thought. That's a great question. I should have thought of. I don't know if there's a number that would cause me to. There actually was. I did do an interview with the competition about a year and a half ago. I gave them a number. They were like, oh yeah, that's probably more than we'd like to pay. And we kind of left it there. But they continuously like reach out and go, hey, want to go do coffee? And so yeah, I do have a number, but it's kind of a high number. They didn't want to do it. Guys just, I guess heard that somebody was courting me, if you will, and then made a call and offered me 30k.

[George Kamel]

So what are you making now?

[Caller]

About 80.

[George Kamel]

Okay.

[Caller]

I work from home and I, I mean I took a huge pay cut,

[George Kamel]

like half you guys plan on moving. So like, you know, this isn't going to work if you do this for three years. So it's not worth the golden handcuffs. So I think you now have some negotiating power to say, listen, I will do a raise. I don't, not comfortable with the three year agreement, but if you're willing to do a $10,000 raise or we'll do

[John Deloney]

it once, we'll do it annualized. So let's split it up over three years.

[Caller]

Yeah, I think that that's a way better deal too. I mean, I just, I don't want

[George Kamel]

you to pay this back if you leave early. And so I'd be reading the fine print, making sure that this is leaning in your favor instead of theirs because they need you more than you need them. That's the key.

[Caller]

I almost think that they're not going to give me a contract. I almost think they're just going to throw $30,000 in the bank account and

[John Deloney]

say, okay, great, don't become somebody you don't want to be true. Like always retain your integrity. And so if you, even if it's a handshake, if you say you're going to do a thing, then do that thing. And so, yeah, I love the idea of you saying, I appreciate the offer. Let's, let's break this up over three years and we'll do it in installments and we'll, we'll renegotiate this every year.

[George Kamel]

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[John Deloney]

Man. Buying or selling your home is high st stakes because one bad deal could cost you tens of thousands of dollars or more. You don't want to overpay for your next house or sell your current home for less than it's worth. Like I said in a previous break, I just went home shopping with a family member of mine in another state

[George Kamel]

and it's dismal and abysmal.

[John Deloney]

It's really, really tough.

[George Kamel]

Like, what you can get for your dollar is not great.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. And, and, and, and dude, I just bought a house not that long ago. Like several years ago. And it's changed so fast. And I know that intellectually I read the data. It's something else to walk inside these homes and to just look at here's much money we have and here's what we're gonna have to give up. Here's what we can't get. This isn't gonna work.

[George Kamel]

Here's the compromises.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, it's tough. And listen, this is why Ramsey trusted connects you with vetted real estate agents who have the experience to guide you step by step to make smart decisions. One thing that's awesome is my family member had an amazing real estate agent and was not afraid to say, we're walking out the door, not doing this.

[George Kamel]

Who actually cares about your budget instead of going, well, you know that outside of your budget.

[John Deloney]

But there, the real estate agent cared more about my family member than the sale. And it, it was evident. It was awesome walking into a house and be like, nope, we're leaving. I'm not even letting you look at this house because they didn't tell the truth on the ad or whatever. It was amazing, right? Listen, you want a good real estate agent in your corner? Connecting is easy. I want you to compare agent profiles using Ramsey trusted and interview your top choices and pick the right agent for you. Find a local Ramsey trusted agent who has your best interest at heart for [e-mail] agent or click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or podcast. Let's roll out to Gulfport, Mississippi and talk to Amy. What's up, Amy?

[Caller]

Hey, how are you?

[John Deloney]

We're doing great.

[Caller]

How are you doing?

Good. Thanks for taking my question.

[John Deloney]

You bet. How can we help?

[Caller]

Well, my husband and I are having a disagreement about what costs we're covering for our youngest daughter and she's in college. So we have three kids. Our oldest is completely on her own and employed, and our middle and youngest are both in college. Our youngest chose to go the farthest away to State University, but it's one of the more expensive ones in the area. And her tuition is mostly covered with scholarships and we don't really have to worry about that much. But since her second year of school, we've been covering her living expenses, so her apartment and utilities, that sort of thing.

[John Deloney]

So what's the fight between you and your husband about?

[Caller]

So from the beginning with all of our kids, we told them that they need to start planning from a young age how they're going to pay for school. Whether they are in the military or get scholarships or play a sport, whatever it is, they will be responsible for their school. And we would help them, but we wouldn't. They're all fairly close in age, so in theory, all of them could have been in college at the same time. So we said, don't plan on mom and dad paying because we probably won't be able to. So the first two, we're good to go. And the youngest one, it seems like she just keeps having more expenses. More expenses. And she calls daddy and says, daddy, I can't pay for it. And he always pays for it. And you know why?

[John Deloney]

Her expenses. You know why? Her expenses keep going up. Sorry to cut you off. You know why?

[Caller]

Why?

[John Deloney]

Because they can.

[George Kamel]

Her line of credit keeps increasing. Yeah, because the bank says, yeah, I got more money.

[John Deloney]

And. And.

[Caller]

Exactly.

[John Deloney]

And y' all used very vague language with underdeveloped frontal lobes. That was my nerdy way of saying

[George Kamel]

your kids living expenses. The most vague term of all time

[John Deloney]

or so is we'll help. We won't pay for all of it, but we'll help. Right?

[George Kamel]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And probably you're in a different financial situation with the youngest one than you were with the oldest one. Is that fair?

[Caller]

The. The two youngest, it's pretty much the same.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

Because they're only a year apart.

[John Deloney]

You and your husband got page. And then you all have to be radically, crystal clear with your daughter. That's it.

[Caller]

And I have been, I think his, his challenge. We both, neither of us, when we were their age had much and we paid, you know, worked like crazy and made our way through college. And he eventually joined the military because he wasn't able to. To pay for his expenses. So now he doesn't want to see them struggle, and that's why he keeps giving in. So every time we talked about it, I end up being like the, the worst mom in the world and being fair.

[John Deloney]

Let me give, let me give you a picture. Okay. I think struggle connected to love is one of the greatest gifts we can give our kids. Kids can struggle through a ton of stuff. They just, it doesn't do them good long term to struggle alone. Okay, so here's the picture. I want you to sit down with your husband. The. The world is a weight room, and you're, you and your husband had to walk into this weight room of life alone and figure out how to lift those weights. And the world kept adding plates on there and making it heavier, and y' all had to figure out how to get stronger. What your daughter is experiencing is she walks in there and says, hey, this is really heavy. And your husband's running in there and pushing her off the bench and he's lifting it. That's, that's, that's, that's nice. It is protecting her from harm. It is making sure she's going to walk out into the world with no strength.

[Caller]

Right?

[John Deloney]

So it's a long term disservice to continue to bottomless, bottomless pit, bail her out. And it's a disservice for. For y' all two to not be aligned and not be clear.

[Caller]

Right?

[George Kamel]

So that's. Step one is both of you need to be aligned, because right now she's going, well, dad's gonna definitely just call dad, which then makes you the, the bad guy, right? That's not fun for either of you. And it's going to cause resentment between you and your husband. So here's what I would do. It's also cruel to say we're cutting you off today. This is, this can't go on anymore.

[John Deloney]

You got to land the plane for land the plane.

[George Kamel]

So say, hey, starting this fall, we're going to change things up. I'm sorry we weren't clear.

[John Deloney]

Or starting at Christmas, probably.

[George Kamel]

Here's what we're going to do. We're going to cover your rent, utilities and meal plan directly. We will not be sending you money. We will pay for those directly. Anything beyond that, you're going to work part time if you want to afford it. That's not cruel.

[John Deloney]

And here's what has to happen. She 100% will blow through that, that budget. Why? Because she always has. And you have always bailed her out. You have to look across the table and say, we will not bail you out. And then when she calls and says, I need money for, you're gonna have to say, sorry, honey, you have to go get a job. You're gonna have to work more hours. You're gonna have to cut back. You're gonna have to hold the line. Otherwise your boundaries are a waste of breath. Give her whatever she wants. But George and I can't decide what your, you and your husband's values are. Pay for everything if you want. Just be honest about it. Or just pay for rent or just pay for groceries or just pay for car insurance or just pay for the cell phone bill. Every family's different. Every parents have different values. But man, you and your husband got a line here on that deal, right?

[Caller]

And that's, that's really our main problem. And he doesn't want to pay for everything. When we discuss it, he doesn't want to pay for everything. But he also doesn't want to tell her that he's not going to because he doesn't want what? Just doesn't want her to struggle.

[John Deloney]

I get that. I get that.

[George Kamel]

That's his own, his own guilt and shame.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. I'm the dad of a daughter too. I, I don't. When she comes in in this morning, she's. My wife's out of town, she said, hey, dad, can we have ice cream for breakfast? And I said, yes. Why? Because I'm a weak coward. I wimped out this morning. And my daughter and I had an ice cream cone for breakfast, mainly because I wanted one. And she was a good avenue for that. But, but here's the thing. I, I, I don't want her to struggle. And if I take her struggle from her, I'm robbing her. I'm robbing her of her dignity. I'm robbing her of her ability to get strong, and I'm robbing her of adversity, which she's gonna need in a world that has spun out of control. Right.

[George Kamel]

She's not in crisis. She's not about to be on the street. We're not being cruel here. It's just this is a part of the journey. Everyone in college should have to struggle.

[John Deloney]

Just some skin in the game.

[George Kamel]

It's an awkward, frustrating time. And I worked part time while I was in college. I survived it. And it gave me a work ethic that I have carried to this day.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Kamel]

So this is first. This is a marriage problem more than anything.

[John Deloney]

Way more.

[George Kamel]

I don't blame your daughter for any of this.

[Dave Ramsey]

No.

[George Kamel]

But it's going to be. It might be a rude awakening at first. And later on she's going, you know what? I'm really glad mom and dad did that. You wouldn't be where I am today.

[John Deloney]

You and your husband come up with a plan for when your daughter calls and says, but, Dad. Y'. All. Y' all already agree. We're gonna go out and get ice cream.

[George Kamel]

You're on speaker phone together from now on.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, exact.

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[George Kamel]

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[John Deloney]

All right, let's roll to Greensboro, North Carolina and talk to Dear Marie. What's up, Marie?

[Caller]

Hi there.

[John Deloney]

How are you doing?

[Caller]

I'm good. I hope you guys are.

[John Deloney]

We're doing great. You staying out of trouble?

[Caller]

Good. Trying to.

[John Deloney]

Good. So what's up?

[Caller]

Hi, I am calling because we have lived in our house for about 34 years. We own the house. It's the house and one acre lot. We own the 1.2 acres on the other side of us. We have for 30 years. And just now the lot on the other side of us went up for sale. So we have been looking at that lot or hoping to buy it for years. It was in a will. It was. The woman who owned it died and she. And so the heirs own it and they've just decided to put it up for sale. So we're wondering. I'm wondering, is this something that I could get a. That I could. I'm wondering how to finance it and if I should even buy it. I guess that's my question.

[George Kamel]

Where are you guys at financially? You have any debt? Do you have emergency savings?

[Caller]

I have no debt. I have about $12,000 in savings. I've got a $90,000 401k. I've got about $155,000 in a brokerage account. Okay, so.

[George Kamel]

And what's your real estate worth?

[Caller]

Probably 400,000.

[George Kamel]

And it's all paid for. No mortgages.

[John Deloney]

Does your husband have his own retirement plan or is that.

[Caller]

No, I'm a widow. My husband died about four years ago.

[John Deloney]

Okay. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

How much is this land?

[Caller]

They are asking 50. Well, they're actually asking 60,000.

[John Deloney]

Oh.

[Caller]

But we know we could get it for about 50.

[George Kamel]

And you've got that money in your brokerage account?

[Caller]

I do, because I see here the

[George Kamel]

word finance is on the board and it always gives me a little, you know, spidey sense tingling.

[Caller]

Yeah, it gives me pause. I haven't had a mortgage for so long that it just. I'm really. Oh, I don't want to borrow money ever.

[George Kamel]

Well, you don't have to. Why don't you just pay cash?

[Caller]

Well, that's what I wondered. Is that a smart thing to use that money for?

[John Deloney]

I would do that today if I was in your exact situation. I would do that.

[George Kamel]

It's not a huge portion of your world. How old are you?

[Caller]

I'm 62. And that's kind of part of the problem.

[George Kamel]

How do you plan on retiring? What's the game plan?

[Caller]

Well, I'm going to work for probably several more years just because I want to.

[George Kamel]

Okay.

[Caller]

And then security, I make about 56,000, so I take home about 3,600amonth.

[George Kamel]

Okay, and what are your expenses every month?

[Caller]

Anywhere between 17 and at the very most, 2,000.

[George Kamel]

Great. So you got plenty of margin in the budget. And have you done the research on what the property is going to cost you long term.

[Caller]

Yes. And property tax wise, my all. My full property tax right now are about $1950 a year. A year.

[George Kamel]

People are mad at you.

[John Deloney]

Across America right now, Texans just got their swords out.

[George Kamel]

I know. And to me, it's one month for a Texan. Okay.

[John Deloney]

The one month.

[Caller]

Well, let me tell you, it just went up $800. So we had a reassessment. And so, you know, 1900 to me is like, what?

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

What are you going to do with the lot?

[Caller]

Nothing.

[John Deloney]

Not have. Neighbors.

[George Kamel]

Just not have. Yes. What's the end goal here?

[Caller]

The end goal. Well, and the really, really important part of reason for getting the property is because this area is being developed. It's a road that everybody would love to have and have it be commercial eventually, someday. But there's also 57 acres behind me that somebody could buy that property and turn it into a road so they could get access to that property. There's also. I know that the last thing the people that are selling it talked about doing with it was putting a couple trailers on it. I mean, either way, it affects me dramatically, I think.

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

I think at this price point, the fact that you can pay cash, it's not a huge part of your world. Obviously, we got to catch up on the retirement side, but if you plan on working for the foreseeable future and chunking that margin away into retirement accounts, then I'll give you the green light on this one.

[John Deloney]

And.

[Caller]

Wow.

[John Deloney]

Anytime I find myself in a situation like this, I always want to throw a couple more variables just. Just to make sure I'm doing the right thing. So can I throw one or two at you?

[Caller]

Absolutely.

[John Deloney]

Sell everything and go buy a condo closer to town.

[Caller]

That's what my sons would say.

[John Deloney]

For 300,000. A nice one. And no, don't have any more yard work ever again. Own your place. You'll. You'll probably put what you'd put. Two plus fifty. You'd put 300, 000 bucks a quarter million dollars in your cash reserves for your retirement.

[Caller]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And you walk away from this whole mess, let them do whatever they want to with it.

[Caller]

Oh, gosh, that's. That's so sad to think about. Just because I've been here, raised my kids here.

[John Deloney]

I get that.

[Caller]

I get that You're.

[George Kamel]

Are you alone out there now? How close is family?

[Caller]

Oh, oh, Everybody's about, you know, within five miles, maybe 20 miles at the most. So, I mean, I have everybody right

[John Deloney]

here, so memories are a Big thing. Having a place for the kids to go run a play is a big thing.

[George Kamel]

And.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Thinking about future you.

[Caller]

Yeah, I know.

[John Deloney]

Thinking about lawn care and mowers and.

[Caller]

Right.

[John Deloney]

Somebody behind you. I just had somebody buy a whole bunch of raw land right behind my place and I'm not super excited about it.

[Caller]

I bet not. I mean, I could easily see a, a neighborhood back there someday.

[John Deloney]

That's right. And so if the opportunity is, let's just sell it and walk away from the whole thing. And there's developers out there that will overpay for it right now and they'll be able to, they might be able to buy the whole chunk. They can buy that 60 lot. They can buy your other lot.

[Caller]

And plus your house, man, somebody would love it. Yeah. My neighbors would hate me.

[John Deloney]

Well, yeah, it sounds like a problem for your neighbors. Make a muffins or something. I don't know. I. I want you just to have a conversation. You can write her a letter. You can just have a quiet conversation with 75 year old you.

[Caller]

Yep. That's a good, that's a good conversation too.

[John Deloney]

Because nobody can take the memories from you that you've had in that house. Nobody can take the love your husband and you shared in that house. Nobody can take the adventures your kids had in that house. And 75 year old you gets to own her. To have a voice in what happens next too.

[Caller]

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good thought. It's a great plan B.

[John Deloney]

So I'm not, I'm not trying to tell you to do that. I just want to make it uncomfortable for you so you at least think about, hey, I'm not stuck either buying this or not buying this. There's other things I can do too.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Kamel]

There just wasn't a whole lot of like, vision and intentionality. It was just like, well, it's available now and I've been wanting it and it'll avoid some potential future problems.

[John Deloney]

Right?

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah. I just don't want to want any, you know. You know, I don't want anything to change. I don't want anything, you know, it's changed.

[George Kamel]

It's already changed.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. The one constant in your life, the one constant is things are going to change.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And so as much. As much as you can be in the driver's seat of that change, the better.

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

Because it's going to happen in and around you. If you can get yourself in a great position, that'd be awesome.

[Caller]

Yes. Okay. I hope my boys aren't listening. To this call because they're going to be like, see, we told you.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. Listen, one of the greatest gifts we all have are people who love us and see our blind spots.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And if you have two young boys or they're not young boys, they're young men.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

If they're saying, hey, mom, we love you and we think this is best for you long term, at least. At least give them an audience. At least give them an audience. I know that can be humbling to do for aging parents, but unless they're trying to, like, I don't know, George, Trying to connive.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

Yeah. And John, you love dirt more than most people I know. So the fact that you're telling her to.

[John Deloney]

I'm just throwing it out.

[George Kamel]

Go to the big city.

[John Deloney]

My. I had neighbors on one side. They. They had like 25 acres. I tried to get it. I hadn't sold that many books. And I'm. I'm actively trying to buy a lot next to me now. So, like, I get that impul. And if I can have some sort of control about who's going to be around me, I'm all in on that. But I'm also not 62. I'm also not completely alone out in the woods. I know what the maintenance and upkeep of being out in the woods is. It's never ending.

[George Kamel]

Well, there's a reason your wife also wanted a place in society, right?

[John Deloney]

Yeah. She wants a cell signal and running water all the time.

[George Kamel]

So needy.

[John Deloney]

I know. I married such a modern woman, but.

[George Kamel]

Yeah, she keeps you alive.

[John Deloney]

That's right.

[George Kamel]

You'd be out in the woods somewhere like a feral animal if it wasn't for her.

[John Deloney]

Not be here if it wasn't for her. We'll be back. Love you guys.

[Caller]

Foreign.

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[John Deloney]

Welcome back to the Ramsey studio in the Fairwinds Credit Union. In studio, I'm John Deloney, joined by George, and we are getting high on our own supply. Let's go out to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and talk to Avery. What's up, Avery?

[Caller]

Hi, John. Hi, George from Boston. Great.

[George Kamel]

Hello. I apologize for John. It's Portsmouth. He knew that, but he was just being funny.

[John Deloney]

Wait, what is it?

[George Kamel]

Portsmouth.

[Caller]

Portsmouth, yes.

[George Kamel]

Yeah, here's the thing.

[Caller]

Between New Hampshire and Massachusetts, it gets all funky with the sound.

[George Kamel]

Imagine Ben Affleck saying he's going, I'm from Portsmouth, Smith.

[John Deloney]

Okay, but listen, in Texas, we say all the words. So we say, like, if there's a town in Texas, it would be called Louisville. And when I said the word Louisville up here in Tennessee, you would have thought, like, it's wolf.

[George Kamel]

It's one syllable, Louisville.

[John Deloney]

And so when I see Portsmouth, I would name my town Portsmouth, but I didn't know it's called. What's it called?

[George Kamel]

Portsmouth.

[John Deloney]

Portsmouth.

[George Kamel]

Just Smith instead of smouth. That's all. Neither here nor there. We're here to help Avery.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, what's up, Avery? Because we're not going to solve this spelling dilemma.

[George Kamel]

It's my ocd.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, you know me. What's up? All right, rip it, Avery.

[Caller]

My question is, how do I stop letting fear about my financial future consume me as a single Pringle Gen Z person? Here is more of my backstory. I'm 24, debt free, never had debt. I'm on baby step 3B, saving for a home down payment. I'm an accountant making $63,000 a year. I'll have my CPA license by June 2028. And in, I am the finance nerd to the point where every single day I feel like all I'm doing is working and obsessing over finances. I feel like I just am in my thoughts a lot. Very much spiraling. I wonder, how am I going to get by the rest of my life continuing to go down this good financial path as a single person? Because I grew up in a single parent household, and so I saw a lot of those struggles in our own household. The other day I was wondering, how am I ever going to get by if I don't even know how to ask for raises at work and continue to advocate for myself? So it's a lot of spiraling and anxiety around that, and I just don't know how to, how to solve that. And I'd love to get your counsel.

[John Deloney]

Let me jump in here. So I want you to flip this entire script. Okay?

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

What if, and I think this is probably true to a large extent, what if your body's right? What if your body has a very real lived experience of growing up in a single parent home where sometimes the lights might get cut off or get really close, where your mom was always scratching and clawing to keep you all fed. And now you're a young adult out into a world in a great profession that, by the way, everybody on planet Earth is saying AI is going to take it away. What if your body's alarm system was going off because it was working perfectly? What if you're not crazy is what I'm trying to say. Then what we have to do is we have to get beneath the spiraling, because the spirals don't help. Rumination is a complete and utter waste of time. And contrary to popular belief and Instagram therapists, you can practice over time to take back control of your thoughts. Okay? And I know this because I've done it. I was a spiraling mess. They used to call me the spiral because, dude, I'd get going and, man, I could unwind any conversation and everyone walk away being like, oh, it's all coming down. Now you just have to decide what I want to focus my attention on.

[Caller]

On.

[John Deloney]

And you have to ask your body, what are you trying to protect me from? Your body's got a real, like, it's got a lived experience. And let me tell you this, you're doing the right things at 24. Some of them. Okay, here's what they are. You're really getting control of your finances. You don't owe anybody any money. That's good. You are working towards credentials so you can help other people. Knuckleheads like me and George, we use the same tax guy. You know why? We don't know how to do it. You're going to be there for guys like us. That's awesome. Okay. And not only are you there for guys like us, you're there for our families. That's amazing. Okay, so you're doing the right things there. Let me ask you other questions. Who, what, what friends do you hang out with regularly?

[Caller]

So I have a lot of Christian Catholic friends up here. I'm part of a really good young adults group. Otherwise I feel like I keep my distance. I. I tend to Notice I isolate myself a lot unless there's something that happens to happen.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

Okay, fine.

I'll go.

[John Deloney]

Let me say this. Your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night knowing you don't have a gang because you're all you got. And so what? Instead of usually people call on the show and we're telling them how to get out of debt for you. I want you to make a commitment to yourself not to get out of debt. You've already done that hard work. I want you to make a commitment that once a week, twice a week, I'm gonna put something on the calendar where I go put myself in the company of other people and I'm gonna go practice not wearing a mask. You know why? Because I'm worth being friends with. Because I'm quirky and weird and I'm a numbers nerd. But you know what? There's other folks out there like me. You get what I'm saying?

[Caller]

I do.

[John Deloney]

And. And if you're interested in a romantic relationship, which I'm pretty high on them because I'd be a worthless loser without mine, then start saying yes to things. Put yourself out with other people. I tell people under the age of 30 I want you in your apartment or in your home only to sleep.

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

Get out and see the world and experience the world. Because all of your ruminating can't do anything about macroeconomic policy, can it? All of your ruminating won't do one thing on some foreign country's crypto policy, will it? All of your anger and rage won't change the gas prices at the pump right now, will it?

[Caller]

No.

[John Deloney]

And so let's go. Let's go do the things that we can do. What's the state of your health?

[Caller]

I'm in good health. I'm not very active. And I'd like to be better at it.

[John Deloney]

There you go.

[Caller]

Like, I don't have a lot of discipline.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

So my life.

[John Deloney]

So your body would be failing you if it knows we're not on a good trajectory when it comes to movement. So we're not moving our bodies. We're going to move internally. So make a commitment to me and George. I don't know. And a couple million other people listening in. I'm gonna go to the gym three. Three days a week. I'm gonna go for a walk in the morning. Three days a week.

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

You get what I'm saying? And so I'm gonna send you a copy of Building a Non Anxious Life. It's. It's A book I wrote a few years ago about this exact thing. And here's how I know this so intimately. Not only have I sat with a jillion people who experience exactly what you're experiencing, I've been there. It's a nightmare, okay? When you feel betrayed by your own body, your own mind, and I want to tell you, on the other side of this thing, can you imagine this with me? It takes me about two minutes. I think that's my sleep latency, which is nerd talk, for two minutes or less for my head to hit the pillow and I'm out. Can you imagine that? I promise it. I know, I know. I promise. I used to take medicine to go to sleep, medicine to wake up. I promise that's there for you, okay? But you got to do that kind of work. And congrats on your finances.

[George Kamel]

You're crushing it, Avery. Are you. Are you doing a written budget? I imagine a spreadsheet every month.

[Caller]

I'm doing a budgeting app. Unfortunately, not every dollar I have, you need a budget.

[George Kamel]

That's why you have anxiety.

[John Deloney]

But no.

[George Kamel]

Here's my challeng. Regardless of what app you're using, don't look at it for 30 days. Yes, try that out. I'm telling you not to budget for 30 days.

[John Deloney]

Don't open Excel for 30 days.

[George Kamel]

I think Avery doesn't trust herself. And I'm gonna prove to you that you are trustworthy when it comes to your finances and your future. You're doing so good.

[John Deloney]

Hang on the line. We're gonna get you hooked up with that.

[Dave Ramsey]

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[John Deloney]

All right, let's go out to not Christopher Columbus, Ohio, and talk to Brian. What's up, Brian?

[Caller]

Hi.

[John Deloney]

How are we doing, brother?

[Caller]

Good, good. I had a question. Should I lower my 401k contributions to pay off some debt?

[George Kamel]

Yes. Next question.

[John Deloney]

Not lower it. Stop it.

[George Kamel]

Yeah, stop completely. How much credit card debt do you have?

[Caller]

8,000 right now.

[George Kamel]

Eight grand. Okay. And how much are you contributing to retirement every month?

[Caller]

I just, I just raised it to 20%, but it used to be 10%.

[George Kamel]

So you're basically willing to borrow against your investments at 22%?

[Caller]

Pretty much.

[George Kamel]

Because, I mean, if you wouldn't be in credit card debt, that if you had taken that investment contribution and moved it to covering whatever bills needed to be covered, right?

[Caller]

Yeah, I guess.

[George Kamel]

What happened? Like, how did you end up going into debt?

[Caller]

I bought a condo at 21 and I've never rented before and my expenses got high and I wanted to redo the bathroom. So one of it's like an installment loan for the bathroom for five grand.

[George Kamel]

How much do you have in savings right now?

[Caller]

I have 10,000 in my 401k, 15,000 in stocks, and like a couple hundred bucks in a savings account.

[George Kamel]

What app are you using to do the stock trading?

[Caller]

It's through Raymond James.

[George Kamel]

Okay. But it's not a retirement account. It's just like a brokerage account that you're investing in single stocks.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

Okay, so you could cash that out and cover the credit card debt today.

[John Deloney]

Do it today. Do it today.

[George Kamel]

That's exactly what I.

[John Deloney]

Do it today.

[George Kamel]

You're 21. You have all the time in the world to let compound growth take over to invest. We don't have time to be messing around with 22% interest rate credit cards.

[John Deloney]

And statistically speaking, you're going to lose all that money anyway because day traders lose their butt cheeks, both of them. So, yeah, cash it out now and at least pay off your debts.

[Caller]

I just feel bad because I got that money from my grandma that passed away.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Five years ago. So I don't wanna. Well, I guess it's at 18,000 now. I. I don't look at it ever.

[George Kamel]

Why did she give you the money?

[Caller]

She passed away.

[George Kamel]

So it's just an inheritance from grandma and she left part of it to you? That's sweet.

[Caller]

Exactly that.

[George Kamel]

Do you want to do the same

[Caller]

for your grandkids account? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[George Kamel]

I like that plan. I'm guessing grandma probably didn't have debt, right? That was a principle she lived by. Yeah, that's a pretty cool way to honor her. By getting rid of your debt forever and cutting up the cards and saying, never again am I gonna let this affect my ability to build wealth. The fact that I owe other people money.

[Caller]

Okay, so you have a learning experience and just pay it all off and

[John Deloney]

yeah, we lovingly call it a stupid tax when you do something dumb. Dude, you're 21. I made those mistakes all the way into my 30s. And so. So you're way ahead of the curve, brother.

[George Kamel]

So. And here's where this is all coming from, Brian. We have a framework around here called the baby steps. So baby step one is $1,000 starter emergency fund. Do you have a thousand bucks to your name in cash, checking, or savings?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Kamel]

Great. So baby step two, we pay off all the consumer debt. That's everything but the mortgage. Using the debt snowball method. Do you have any debt outside of the 8K?

[Caller]

No.

[George Kamel]

Great.

[John Deloney]

No car loan, nothing?

[Caller]

No, my car is paid off.

[John Deloney]

Student loans?

[Caller]

No, I didn't go to school.

[John Deloney]

Homie, you're winning, dude. Congratulations.

[George Kamel]

If you crush this, and I'm telling you, like, literally cut up the cards. I have not owned a credit card in 13 years, and my life has only been better for it. And I can't go into debt if I tried because I don't have the ability to. I don't have a vehicle to do that. And that's given me the ability to build wealth instead because I use my own money and I feel the pain at purchase. So if I. If I don't have eight grand to do the renovation, I just have to wait and save up like a grown adult. And that's. That ability is the same muscle that's going to allow you to build wealth for the rest of your life. And I love that you're investing 20. I think that alone tells me you're going to be just fine. On the wealth building side, you go use our investment calculator. From 21 to 61, 40 years of investing just 15 of your current income. If you never get a raise, you will be a multimillionaire. And I don't even know your income, but I know that for a fact.

[Caller]

Thank you.

I like, are you sure it's not even worth it? Because I. I mean, my credit Card only has 1,000 on it. And then when I bought this condo, I bought a TV for two. I. And I've never missed a credit card payment. And I get 2% cash back.

[George Kamel]

Well, in that case, go into as much debt as possible for 2% cash back. You said you have 8 grand total as part of that. What's the other 7 grand?

[John Deloney]

Wait one second. Do you think, like, just think about this for a second. Do you think the credit card companies give you 1 or 2% back because they're your friend? Or do you think that they have used these incredible, extraordinary AI systems to know exactly how much to give you? So you keep using their products and they're going to make so much money off of you?

[Caller]

No, I think you're right, because I remember in high school, I heard the Apple credit card had 2%, and I. That was like my dream. I just, like, my only goal is to get that credit card.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, they're not your friend. They're running a business. And if they're like, hey, we'll give you some money back, wink, wink.

[George Kamel]

What do you make a year, Brian?

[Caller]

I make 70,000, but with overtime. Well, 71,000 both. Overtime, I'll make 80.

[George Kamel]

That is amazing. So here's the deal. 2% of that is 1400. Now, you're obviously not spending 70 grand on a credit card. That would be insane. But I'm telling you, you could make 3%, 4% just by saving that amount of your income every month. It's a better equation.

[Caller]

So, you guys, I use the Acorns app and it, like, rounds up. Does that something, like, rounds up my change? Is that something good?

[John Deloney]

Stop playing games, homie.

[George Kamel]

I would delete it. It's like going into the, like, pond at your mall and trying to build wealth by collecting the change in there and thinking that you're building wealth. I met a girl yesterday who said. I was like. I was like, you're investing? She said, yeah, I use the Acorns app. I said, how much you have invested? $300.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

By the time you retire, that's going to get you an ice cream cone.

[Caller]

So put that into my stock thing because I'll make more than just delete it.

[John Deloney]

Just, just.

[George Kamel]

I'm going to give you the playbook.

[John Deloney]

Simplify your life, homie.

[George Kamel]

So in my book, Breaking Free from Broke, I want you to read two chapters. Number is the credit card chapter. I go through all the different personality archetypes. You're probably at least three of them. The perfect spender, the rewards redeemer, all of that. And Then read the wealth is Patience chapter and I will give you the playbook about where to invest, what to invest in to give you confidence so you're not just floundering because you're a really smart guy. You're doing a lot of things, but you just need a little bit of focus and put the blinders on to not fall for all the traps that 21 year olds just like you are falling for all over the country.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, here's another way to think of it. It you're going to the gym every day and you're seeing all of these different weights, all these different like machines and you're running through and doing one rep on all of them.

[George Kamel]

It's like me at the gym basically,

[John Deloney]

except George has never walked into a gym in his life. But you're running. You pick up one dumbbell and you lift one over your head once and then you run to the one machine and you do one leg and then you run to another machine. You're never going to get in shape that way. You might get tired, you might be really annoying to all the people around you, but you're never gonna build the muscle and the strength and the aesthetic you want unless you just do the boring thing over and over again, now and forever.

[Caller]

Focus on one thing. Pay off the debt.

[John Deloney]

And by the way, get rid of

[Caller]

these all acorns and credit cards and

[George Kamel]

just the last thing you need is another app. What you need right now is just a game plan, a budget savings in the bank. Invest into your employer retirement plan. We did the largest study of millionaires ever done, over 10,000 and nobody was like, dude, 2% cash back is what got me there, bro.

[John Deloney]

I acorned my way to millions.

[George Kamel]

They all said I just put money into my 401k every year. And these were not smart. The smartest people, they were average investors at best. But they said, my wealth is in my paid for home and my 401k, my employer retirement plan. That's all you need to be.

[John Deloney]

Are you dating anyone?

[Caller]

Yeah, my girlfriend lives with me.

[John Deloney]

Okay. Spend your energy being a good boyfriend. Not scrolling acorn porn.

[Caller]

You're right. You're right.

[John Deloney]

Take her on walks, y'. All. Go to a museum or something. Go fishing. I don't care what you do. I don't even know if there's water in Columbus, Ohio. Go do fun stuff. Get off these abs. Like, dude, I've never in my life heard a young woman, an older woman be like, oh, I love him. He's got so many financial hack apps on his phone and he just scrolls them when we're together. I've never heard that ever, ever.

[George Kamel]

Hang on the line. Brian, we're going to send you a copy of Breaking Free from Broke. We'll send you the audiobook. If you're more of a listener, that's fine too. That's my speed.

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[Caller]

Foreign.

[John Deloney]

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[George Kamel]

Today's question comes from Veronica in Florida. I'm almost $13,000 in debt between credit cards and a car loan. My Gym membership is 50 bucks and I have a personal trainer that charges $120 a week. I understand that I should cancel if I'm not using the gym, but I go four times a week. Why should I cancel when it benefits my physical health?

[John Deloney]

So. Here's the thing.

[George Kamel]

What say you John, as the person who works out?

[John Deloney]

I'm saying that 14 years ago I got on Craigslist and got a few kettlebells and started in my garage. And I also had a gym membership at the time. And then a couple months later I Got a few dumbbells and a couple months later I bought a squat rack. And over the years I've just continued adding I still of the very first gear I got 10 years ago. And now I have a really nice extensive home gym. It's awesome. And I have close personal friends that are very successful personal trainers. And it's awesome. And there's been seasons when I hire trainers for particular purposes.

[Caller]

Right.

[John Deloney]

But this idea that I'm broke, I'm going to spend it looks like about 680 bucks.

[George Kamel]

Yeah. 550 probably a month.

[Caller]

Right?

[John Deloney]

Okay. Okay. Well, 120 a week times four is what? 480 plus the. Plus 50. There you go. Yeah. So 500 plus bucks a month plus all the supplements. Right?

[George Kamel]

So many supplements.

[John Deloney]

Right. Here's the thing, Veronica. You're broke and you've, you've, you've given yourself a strawman here. I have to spend $500 a month or I can't be physically healthy. That's just nonsense. You can get online and you can go check out my buddies at Mind Pump dude and get one workout program that you do from home for 60 days. 90 days. 120 days while I get your. While you get your financial mess cleaned up. A personal trainer is something you buy that I love and I actually believe in. When you can afford it and you can't afford it, you're broke.

[George Kamel]

It's a luxury.

[John Deloney]

It's. It, it is some. Yeah, it's. It's a thing you get when you have specific goals and you can afford it. Same as buying a Lexus. You know what a Lexus is? An awesome car.

[Caller]

Car.

[John Deloney]

A car that will last you till the end of time. And it's a luxury. It's expensive and it should be because it's really nice. And so when you have the money and you can afford it, buy it.

[Caller]

Right.

[John Deloney]

Like any number of things here. But this idea that I have to have this and I have to have this, I have to have this or it's going to be detriment to my physical health. That's a choice you're making. And so yes, as someone who cares about you and your physical health, I would tell you pause the personal trainer. Cancel your gym membership if you can. Some of these gym memberships, you're probably locked in this until 2040, but cancel your gym membership.

[George Kamel]

You have to write a letter with a feather pen. Carrier pigeon deliver.

[John Deloney]

No, you have to have an owl from Hogwarts deliver in.

[George Kamel]

But signing up you can do with a text Exactly.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just so make direct eye contact and you're signed up to get out of the contract. And then when you're. As soon as you can afford it and you budget for it, then get a great personal trainer. I'm all in on that. But you can't afford it right now. And there's over six grand a year

[George Kamel]

that could be going to crush this debt. And so, yes, you're gonna have to make peace with. I'm gonna pay interest a whole lot longer. I'm gonna stay in debt longer, make these payments longer, and it's going to be harder to get out because we want the debt free journey to be short. Yes, like pain, but for as little amount of time as possible.

[John Deloney]

And let's get on Facebook marketplace and get a couple of dumbbells and a kettlebell and let's work out in our

[George Kamel]

garage, do some YouTube workouts.

[John Deloney]

That's right.

[George Kamel]

Six months. And just knock the debt out and use this as your why. Like, here's why. I want to get out of debt. Never again do I want to have to downgrade what I'm doing with my physical health.

[John Deloney]

And it may happen. What happened to me is when we started paying off debt, I canceled a lot of stuff. I realized, oh, man, the 15 minutes it takes me to drive to the gym and the 15 minutes it takes me to drive home to the gym, plus all the walking around and saying hi to everybody, I mean, that's half my workout, if not more, every morning. And so I built it out of my garage, and now I love being there. And now my kids work out with me, so there may be some benefits there. And I'm not running down gyms. I love them. I'm not. I love personal trainers. Veronica, you can't afford it. And here's my promise to you. Debt over time will impact your emotional health and your physical health. It will bury you. So put a pin in it and get this financial mess cleared up and then get on with focus on your

[George Kamel]

financial health right now. Boom.

[John Deloney]

Eric, you should be like a. Like a rapper or something.

[George Kamel]

I think that's off the table for me at this point.

[John Deloney]

I absolutely, for the first time, I agree with you, George. Let's go out to Indianapolis and talk to Kathleen. What up, Kathleen?

[Caller]

Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.

[John Deloney]

Oh, I'm John. I'm just kidding. What's up?

[Caller]

Hi, doctor. How are you?

[John Deloney]

I mean, I could not be doing better. How are you?

[Caller]

Blessed.

[John Deloney]

Awesome.

[Caller]

We have two debts left. Two. Two. I'm so Excited?

[John Deloney]

How close are you? How much are these debts?

[Caller]

Oh, well, one is the mortgage and the other one is my student loans.

[John Deloney]

How much are the student loans loans?

[Caller]

90,000.

[John Deloney]

Dang, Gina, those are expensive student loans.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

What do you guys make a year?

[Caller]

I 7. We bring home 75.

[George Kamel]

Total household income?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Kamel]

What was your degree in?

[Caller]

Communications.

[George Kamel]

What are you doing with it? Like, what's your current role?

[John Deloney]

You better be communicating a lot.

[Caller]

I was at one of the new stations for 13 years and then I couldn't take it anymore and I quit. And now I'm a blue collar factory worker.

[John Deloney]

Wow. I had a girl. All right, so how can we help?

[Caller]

So I graduated 16 years ago. I have been hustling to pay off the student loan debt. It's not getting me anywhere.

[George Kamel]

What was the original balance?

[Caller]

40.

[George Kamel]

So it's grown by 50.

[Caller]

Yeah, well, I fell into default because I couldn't find a job for three years.

[John Deloney]

You couldn't find a job for three years?

[Caller]

It was 2010 in recession.

[John Deloney]

Okay, all right, we won't go back there. I don't want to get distracted. All right, so what's your question?

[Caller]

Am I really gonna keep hustling to get it paid off? It's going to be forgiven in four years.

[George Kamel]

By who? Is it the forgiveness people?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Kamel]

What program are you in that you think it's going to be forgiven in four years?

[Caller]

Well, it's the one that Biden, so as long as it's not touched.

[George Kamel]

Are you talking about pslf? The Public Student Loan Forgiveness Program?

[Caller]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

You're a factory worker, sister. You don't, I mean, you're not in that program. Program?

[Caller]

Oh yeah.

[George Kamel]

You have to like enroll and make like 120 consecutive payments and stay in the public sector.

[Caller]

I, I, I, I did.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

120.

[John Deloney]

And did you apply for it after your 120th?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

What'd they tell you?

[Caller]

Four more years.

[George Kamel]

Why would it take four more years if you've made the amount of payments you need?

[Caller]

Because it's not 20 years. That's what they told me.

[George Kamel]

I would be not taking the gamble on this because that loan's going to be $120,000 by then and you're not going to get approved. That's my fear. I hope it's not true.

[John Deloney]

It's already doubled on you.

[George Kamel]

I don't want it to triple. And now you're left holding the bag, extra frustrated, extra hopeless, and you want

[John Deloney]

to play a terrible, very unfun yet fun for me game. Go back in time with me to 2016. Now, you know, let's go back to 2010. 2010. Could anyone on the planet have predicted we'd be living the world we're living right this second?

[Caller]

Oh, no. Absolutely not.

[John Deloney]

No, no. Sci fi writers are like, y' all are doing what? Right, Right? And so you have way more faith in what's going to happen in four years than I do. That's at least a presidential election away. I. I would way, way more trust the woman in the mirror than I would hang on to anything I think the federal government's going to do in four years.

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

You get what I'm saying? And another know, that's what I do.

[Caller]

Keep trying to pay it off.

[George Kamel]

I would get both of your incomes up and start attacking those with a crazy, aggressive.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, with a vengeance is the right words.

[Caller]

All right.

[John Deloney]

I hate to tell you that, but I don't trust that program to be there in four years.

[George Kamel]

We are absolute joy killers. She started off so excited.

[John Deloney]

I know, I know.

[George Kamel]

Left crawling. But it's the truth. That's all we can do.

[John Deloney]

One of our favorite things is when people share their stories about how they're winning in their first financial lives. And we just got this awesome fan review for our Every Dollar budgeting app. It says every dollar is excellent. It really helped me get to get my personal finances in order. Now that I'm married, my wife and I use it together out of our joint checking account. It really helps us maintain a common vision and a set of goals. It's awesome to hear really good things happen when you're intentional with your money. Take control of your money, change your family church tree, and then live like no one else. Start every dollar for free today in the Apple Store or Google Play. Hey, let's roll back that last call real quick, George. I don't know how this works, and so I'm asking your wisdom here. If you took out $40,000 in loans and then in a federal student loan, and then it doubles over time, can you go back and try to settle that? That. Or is that the new balance? And that's going to be the way it is forever and ever. Amen.

[George Kamel]

No, you sign those dotted lines, you're

[John Deloney]

in debt to the federal government.

[George Kamel]

The interest is interest legally. And when you, you know, go into ferment or forbearance, I mean, the interest can still accrue. And so I talked to some people when we did the Borrowed Future podcast, and I talked to these people, and they had their loans for 20 years, and they're like, I don't understand. I only took out 40. They're telling me the balance is now 80. Did I get scammed? And I go, no, you just never learned how the interest works and what deferment really is. And so it's heartbreaking to see the numbers go up after you've even made your minimum payments. And the way it works is the interest is higher than your minimum payment, ergo the balance goes up instead of down. And to her. So I was confused. I've never heard. So I think she was on the Income Driven Repayment Program.

[John Deloney]

That's what I think.

[George Kamel]

So which is different? That has a 20 year track. The PSLF, the Public Student Loan Forgiveness Program is a 120 qualifying payments. That is the finish line. So I don't even think she knows what she's in and I don't think she's in a forgiveness program.

[John Deloney]

Gotcha.

[George Kamel]

So I'm very scared for her. And the truth is, even if she played the game perfectly, there's still a high chance she would not get approved.

[John Deloney]

Well, here's what's going to happen and it's going to be pal, have to be palatable to the common voter or it's going to have to just be forced on us by a politician, which is either these things are gonna have to get just dismissed and you're going to have millions of people who paid their, their loans off enraged or they're going to turn into very similar like IRS debt like y' all owe us. We're going to start garnishing your wages and we're gonna, we're gonna tag you because you owe the federal government money. I don't see another path. Right? Yeah, it's going to be one or

[George Kamel]

the other and then with every administration

[John Deloney]

the rules will change the changes and it changes.

[George Kamel]

Nope, we got rid of that every four years. It's just going to restart.

[John Deloney]

And listen, if any politician tells you we're going to get these student loans are so evil, they're so bad. They're the worst things ever. They're so bad we're gonna, we're gonna dismiss them. They're only telling you the truth if they also say in that same sentence or in the next sentence, and next semester we're not going to make another loan because they're so bad for you. It's like saying, hey, the food you're eating is so poisonous. We're going to give you medicine and then we're just going to sell it right to you tomorrow. Right. And so if student loans are so Bad. Then come up with a long term plan to stop.

[George Kamel]

The government needs to not be involved.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. Stop making it.

[George Kamel]

They're backing them. So the student loan company is like, great, if they don't pay, the government's going to pay, which is the taxpayer, by the way, because the government doesn't make any money. So that's a problem. And then the private student loans, they can be even scummier.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Kamel]

They can do what they want. And so there's no good way to take out student loans. The best way is just to avoid student loan debt altogether. And if you have it aggressively pay it off aggressively. No one's coming to save you.

[John Deloney]

All right, let's go out to Des Moines. To Des Moines, Iowa and talk to Claire. Hey, Claire, what's up?

[Caller]

Hi. How are you?

[John Deloney]

Good. What's up?

[Caller]

So I'm considering two options. One, I can stay out here in Iowa, I've got a boyfriend here, he farms and I can stay at my job which pays me pretty well. Or I'm looking at returning to Texas and taking over the family business for a pretty significant pay raise and it's really hard to decide which one is the right choice. I know that a W2 employee does not have the same kind of long term earning potential as a business owner,

[John Deloney]

but they don't have the same long term risk in some cases too.

[Caller]

Right?

That is true. That is true.

[John Deloney]

But take all that off the table for a second. I've just finished a two year project digging into the answering the question, is being married still worth it? Is it still worth it in the modern era? And if so, how in the world are we supposed to do it?

[Caller]

Right?

[John Deloney]

And one of the data points that I found that surprised me the most was the net financial benefit to a good or great marriage over the long haul. It rois in a really extraordinary way because you got two people who can pick up the slack for each other. Sometimes you both are co earners. Sometimes one person's able to carry the weight at home other person's car, but it just has a net benefit over time. So a, tell me about this knucklehead farmer boy that you're in love with. Is he awesome?

[Caller]

He is pretty awesome. He is pretty awesome. My dad wishes it hadn't been a farmer because he wouldn't be so landlocked. But he is pretty great. He owns his own business. He's also got a family operation that he's working with and he understands if I, I leave, he'd understand why.

[John Deloney]

Okay, so let me ask You a second question. Not one time did you say, I really am invested in this family business. I love this business, I want to be a part of it. You mentioned some money.

[Caller]

Yeah. So I've never been involved in the family business on my side in Texas it's accounting and finance, which is not what I currently work in, but it's also software. So that is sort of what I work in today. I am passionate about the mission. It does work with, not for profits, but just like the farmer boyfriend. Agriculture has been what I've been chasing since I was 18 years old.

[George Kamel]

Okay, so is that your love, your passion? You're like, I don't want to leave agriculture or do you find to leave that life, potentially end this relationship to make some great money and work in the family business?

[Caller]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I think stability is the most important thing to me and I certainly want to do my family proud. And if this legacy is something that they want to pass on, this would actually be a second generation family business, then you don't want to let those people down. Right.

[George Kamel]

Well, but that's a lot of pressure now.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, but you're in the driver's seat of your life. How old are you?

[Caller]

Yes, I should be. I'm 26.

[John Deloney]

Okay. At some point there's going to come a day when your dad won't be driving your the car that is your life and you get to decide when that is.

[Caller]

That is really fair.

Right.

[John Deloney]

And if that means I'm going to give up my passion I've had since I was 18, I'm going to give up a really stable relationship with a really great guy who has an, who's also a part of a legacy family business. And I'm going to go literally opposite. I'm going to go halfway across the United States to do so, then so be it. But go because you want to go. And you work in software, you work in technology. Ask yourself what is the words I'm hearing the most on the AI disruption is in finance.

[Caller]

Yeah, absolutely. And we are trying to. Well, the family business in Texas is trying to account for that and be ahead of it a little bit.

[John Deloney]

Account. I see what you did there. That was a good joke. Okay, so. So I guess I can't help you, George. I don't know if you can.

[George Kamel]

I'm just wondering, does this have to happen now? What's the urgency?

[Caller]

So I have been given a deadline

[George Kamel]

of about a month and if you don't take it, who does?

[Caller]

They will hire somebody to do the job. In Texas.

[George Kamel]

Okay. Are you okay with that?

[Caller]

You know, after this call, I think I might be.

[George Kamel]

I'm just like, I don't want you to feel this pressure, like, you're the savior of this whole thing, and if you don't take it, the family name is sullied. It just feels like we're creating too much drama around it when the truth is they're willing to go hire a stranger off the street to do this. You've never been involved in it. You've never raised your hand and said, I want to go work in this business. And so if it's just for a pay raise, I think you're gonna do astoundingly well in the current career field you're in if you just keep going.

[John Deloney]

And let's flip this other side of this. When Dave started talking to his kids about taking over ownership of Ramsey and working here, he didn't make them. In fact, they had to go through the paces to say, no, no, no, no. I really want this. The Daniel who's our current president, he got to start as a teenager painting stairwells and working in shipping and had to work his way up through sales. Like, right. He had to prove to Dave, I want to take this thing on, not, you better do it, or I'm going to go hire somebody else to do. You get what I'm saying?

[Caller]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a. I think that's a really good point. And that is how I see my boyfriend's family business operations.

Great.

[John Deloney]

Okay, so I. You've got to. You've got to own the final decision. Decision here. So I don't want you to be like, well, these two random B level podcasters told us I should. Like, I want you to own this and make a firm decision, but I want you to imagine yourself in the driver's seat of the car that is your life. Where do you want to go?

[George Kamel]

Plus, this feels like a Hallmark movie, and I want to see the. The happy ending here.

[John Deloney]

I do, too. Marry the farmer Mar the farmer Marry the farmer, farmer. Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Let's go out to Manhattan, Kansas, and talk to Stephanie. What's up, Stephanie?

[Caller]

Hi. How are you guys?

[John Deloney]

We're doing great. How are you?

[Caller]

I'm doing great. Thanks for taking my call.

[John Deloney]

You got it. What's up?

[Caller]

Yeah, so my husband and I, we have a rental house. It was my primary house before we got married, and so we're just kind of at a crossroad. We don't know if we want to sell it and kind of cash it out, because the equity in it is quite a bit and move on with our lives, or if we want to hold on to it, pay off debt in a couple years and then have this asset.

[John Deloney]

Do you like being landlords?

[Caller]

Well, unfortunately, the first time we were landlords was a family situation, so it left a bad taste in our mouth. But we definitely learned what not to do, if that makes sense.

[John Deloney]

Okay, but that was a great, great way to evade my question. Do you like being a landlord? Yes or no? Yes or no? Yes or no?

[Caller]

I'm a no.

[John Deloney]

Okay, cool. Just let that be. Just let that be. And so.

[George Kamel]

Okay, what is it worth?

[Caller]

So it is worth between 150 to 200. And I owe about 12,000 on it.

[George Kamel]

Oh, nice. That's almost paid off. That's fantastic.

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Kamel]

Okay, so let's flip the script here. If you didn't own this thing, you have your life, you have now, would you sink the money to go buy this thing as a rental property?

[Caller]

No.

[George Kamel]

So why are we hanging on to it?

[John Deloney]

Because it was your house before you got married.

[Caller]

Yeah, it was my baby and I. I had a house fire in it. So I kind of built it up from bottom up, kind of. And definitely attached to it. But also I've gotten advice where it's like, oh, no, don't sell, don't sell. I'm like, we weren't ready to sell it. And I were like, wait, is that stupid? Is it worth a hundred thousand more next year? So, yeah, we're just really, like, not sure what to do. We do want to move on with our life. We're going through infertility, and this would kind of help us go through that process a lot more smoother.

[George Kamel]

Yeah, that's a pretty big why. Yeah, it's a great why to have to get out of debt, get some financial footing. How much debt do you guys have?

[Caller]

Including that house and our current house, we're about 64,000.

[George Kamel]

But no consumer debt. It's just mortgages.

[Caller]

We do have about 6,000 in credit card. That's me. And then 8,000 in a car.

[George Kamel]

Okay, so we have really 14,000 in consumer debt and the rest is mortgages.

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Kamel]

What's the household income?

[Caller]

He brings about $4,500 a month. And I was full time. I cut back to, like, super, super part time when I realized we're going through infertility. So I bring about 800amonth.

[George Kamel]

Okay. So total currently is 5300amonth.

[Caller]

Month. About that, yeah.

[George Kamel]

How much margin do you have at the end of each month? How much is left over that you can use to tackle debt?

[Caller]

We just this year we've really buckled on the budget and we realized we could have between one month we had like 1000 and then last month we had like 200 because some stuff came up.

[George Kamel]

Okay. So at this rate, best case scenario, it would still take you over a year just to get rid of the, the consumer debt, the 14,000. That's a long time while you're trying to also deal with the infertility.

[Caller]

Right, right.

And we do have about 11 grand in savings which we've been holding off on if we need to do repairs to the house to sell it or if we do need to put it into fertility. So we haven't quite snowball affected it and put it towards all the debt yet because we're not sure. Like I had two surgeries last year, things like that. It's been really interesting.

[John Deloney]

What if we flip the script again? How old were you when you bought this house?

[Caller]

I was 23.

[John Deloney]

Okay, how long did you own it before there was the fire and you rebuilt it?

[Caller]

A year.

[John Deloney]

Okay, go back and have an imaginary conversation with 24 year old you and imagine her looking at you. How old are you now?

[Caller]

Now? 30. Almost 35.

[John Deloney]

Almost 35. Imagine 24 year old you looking at 35 year old you and 24 year old you saying the following. I'm going to buy this house and I'm going to fix it up when it burns down. I'm going to do a ton of hard work, a lot of sweat equity. Cuz one day we want to be a mom. And one day this is going to be worth a whole lot of money. Money. And it's going to get you and some new knuckleheaded husband that you haven't even met yet. It's going to clear all the debts for y', all, it's going to pay off the house y' all live in, it's going to put some cash in the, in the bank so that y' all can go through this, the harrowing process that is infertility. I want us to have a baby. So I'm gonna do all this work at 24 so that I can hand you this over when you're 35 and you'll be set up. That changes the whole thing. Huh?

[Caller]

That's beautiful. Yeah.

[George Kamel]

So here's the math on that. You net 130 from the sale of this place, you pay off your $14,000 in consumer debt, you pay off the other mortgage. Well, now you have 60 grand laying

[John Deloney]

around on top of the 11 you have laying around.

[George Kamel]

So now you have a full emergency fund and money to do these fertility treatments without going into debt ever again with no stress, all peace.

[John Deloney]

And by the way, you're 35 in a new marriage and you have a paid for house house.

[Caller]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

Right. And so is there a possibility this house goes up in value next year, five years from now, 10 years from now? Yep. But do you want to be having a conversation with 45 year old you saying, you know what, we decided to keep borrowing money. We decided to go 100 grand in debt with infertility treatments that may or may not have worked and we really wanted to have some equity in a home I owned when I was 24. For aren't you proud of us? Or would you rather talk to 45 year old you who may be holding a 5 year old and a 3 year old or a 5 year old and a 2 year old or whatever and say we don't owe anybody anything and we decided we wanted to have the life that we wanted to have.

[Caller]

I love that.

[John Deloney]

You know what I'm saying?

[George Kamel]

I think selling it would be way more life changing than keeping it.

[John Deloney]

Agreed.

[George Kamel]

That's the simplest way to put it. And so if I'm in your shoes, based on what you told us, I

[John Deloney]

would sell it today.

[George Kamel]

I'm offloading. I'll do the minimal repairs needed to make it palatable for the market to sell to get top dollar for it. And if you need a real estate pro, you can jump on ramseysolutions.com agent and they'll get you the best deal they can. But I would move forward with this because I think your, your why is too strong to be hanging on to this default landlord life.

[Caller]

I agree. Definitely talking it out helped a lot and put it in perspective for sure.

[John Deloney]

Will you do us a huge favor when baby number one is born? Will you call back into the show and let me and George cheer you on?

[George Kamel]

People love the where are they now? That's one of the best where are they now? As I can think of is you calling back and we hear a baby squealing in the background.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. It's one of my favorite things in the world and I've been there. It's a harrowing long walk and it's lonely and yeah, we want to celebrate with you when it, when it, when it happens. Okay.

[Caller]

Okay, thank you. I will do that for sure.

[John Deloney]

We'll be Looking forward to it. That'll be fantastic.

[George Kamel]

John. That call is such a great reminder that the baby steps are not meant to be optimal. The baby steps are meant because life isn't optimal. Yeah, that's the craziest part to me is the reason you do it is to have flexibility, options and margin when life goes sideways.

[John Deloney]

Right.

[George Kamel]

When on paper it didn't, it's gonna go sideways.

[John Deloney]

And I think the grief you and I take, you take it way more than me. But the grief we take take from Internet pot shotters and social media pot shotters and other influencers are. Yeah, but look at this. Look how much money you're leaving on the table. Look how much money you're just holding on to. You're paying this out of order. There's a reason, and it's because none of these formulas in a spreadsheet account for life happens. And when you talk to thousands of people going through cancer treatment, infertility, job loss, then you realize margin and psychological wins are way more important than arbitrage leverage. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hey, guys, Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now, you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help.

[Caller]

Help.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to ramseysolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's ramseysolutions.com.

[John Deloney]

Charles, South Carolina. Let's talk to Aubrey. What's up, Aubrey?

[Caller]

Hi.

How's it going?

[John Deloney]

Excellent. How are you, brother?

[Caller]

Doing good. It's weird. I can't believe I'm talking to you guys. Listen to you guys for a long time.

[John Deloney]

We were just talking. We can't believe we're talking to you, man. That's awesome. What's up?

[Caller]

Very cool. Yeah. Well, my son Henley, he's 11 years old, and he opened up a Pokemon pack the other day. It's impossible to get him, but his grandmother bought him a Pokemon pack and he happened to get a. A very valuable card in the pack.

[George Kamel]

Let's go grand.

[John Deloney]

How valuable?

[Caller]

It was about a thousand. Well, probably about fourteen hundred dollars. But we sold it to a local card shop, so got about $11,000.

[John Deloney]

Wow. $1,000.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

What kind of card was it? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Caller]

It was the.

The Mega Gengar Ex, the. The most current release. That's like the Chase card that everybody's after.

[John Deloney]

George has that tattooed on his lower back.

[George Kamel]

Actually, that's the card.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, right above the Aztec sun. He has, he got that one tattooed there.

[George Kamel]

How old is your son? He's 11. Okay.

[John Deloney]

Wow.

[George Kamel]

And did I give him the money?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah. He's got. We're letting him decide how he wants to do it. So he's a very, very responsible 11 year old. You're gonna laugh, but I want to let you guys know. He's, he's listened, he's read the Total money makeover and then he listened on audible to entree leadership and smart money, smart kids. So he's like, good.

[George Kamel]

So no Legos for this guy.

[John Deloney]

You need to get him a bunch of toilet paper and teach him how to wrap houses or something. You're. You're in danger of, of creating a nerd bigger than even us. That's awesome, man.

[George Kamel]

Way to go.

[Caller]

He's a good kid.

[John Deloney]

All right, so what's your question, man?

[Caller]

Yeah, so he's wondering what he should do with it. He has a plan so far. So I don't know if you want to share what he's thinking so far with you guys.

[John Deloney]

Sure.

[Caller]

Yeah, we basically if you know from the smart money, smart kids, he said there's three things you can do with money. You can save it, it, you can spend it, and you can give it. So he wants to give $300 to the church. He wants to save $300. He wants to spend $200 and then have the other 200 for like gifts for family and friends and kind of buying other people's stuff.

[George Kamel]

How do we clone this kid? This is crazy. I literally thought you were going to say he wants to buy $1,000 worth of Pokemon packs to redo this. I'm like, you created a generic gambler at this point.

[John Deloney]

That's right.

[George Kamel]

Let's do it again. Again. I love it.

[Caller]

You think so? Yeah, he's, he's just super generous and we're almost, almost found myself trying to discourage his generosity. I'm like, I don't think that's quite the right move here. So he wanted to get your guys thoughts on, on that plan and yeah,

[John Deloney]

my only concern would be with what what you just told me is amazing and that that's a direct reflection of the parenting he's receiving. So kudos to you, man. Like as the father of a 10 year old, like will the done. That's awesome. We need more young people out in the world like him. My only concern would be that there's no sort of. This isn't the right word, but it's close enough. Survivor's guilt. I got this money. My grandma bought me something. I end up with a th000 bucks. And so I kind of owe 200 bucks to the side to buy other people's stuff. Right. And I would sit down with my, with my son or my daughter at that age and make sure like I, I do believe I have an obligation I owe if as a tither I, I have a responsibility to pay back to my local church because I know where that money's going. It's going out in the local community.

[Caller]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And to, to help the least of these in our community. Like I, that's a, that's a responsibility I have. But if I'm gonna buy gifts for friends, family, I want that to come from a place in his heart of like, because I want to, not because I feel like I kind of feel bad because I got this thing. So I kind of owe everybody. You get what I'm saying? And it's just a mom him about emotions and about the spirit of things and obligation which it's. That's a tough. Those are tough concepts for adults to wrap their head around, much less 11 year olds. But it could just open up some great conversations with you guys.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's good. And probably be sure to have that conversation and then make sure if he's wanting to give that much that that's not coming from a place of guilt.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. And it may just be he saw grandma's eyes light up and he loves giving stuff away. I. I remember. I, I mean I've talked about this a lot on the show, but my son years went to breakfast once a week at a local waffle house. And that was a way I taught him. Here's what generosity, like looks like. Right? Let's like, let's be ridiculous and tip these waiters. And their response was so extraordinary. We, we developed relationships with the Wade staff because we went there all the time for years that I had to teach him, hey, you can't tip all of your money away because you got to pay bill. Like you're going to have to like have a light bill one day. Right. Because. Because it was so overwhelming. The reward was so big and so, so I, I never imagined I'd have to teach a, a seventh grader that lesson. Like, well, you got to hold on to some of your money. You can't just give it all away. But man, I'd much rather be teaching from that place than the other.

[Caller]

Right?

[John Deloney]

Good for you, man.

[George Kamel]

So yeah, the ratios might be slightly off. You guys might decide, hey, let's do 100 to the church. We're going to do 100. That's spontaneous. So for Al and we have a great server. You can hand them that $100 bill. We're going to put a couple hundred bucks in a high yield savings account for short term goals. I mean the kid's going to be driving in five years. Years. And we know how expensive cars are and maybe put some in a long term plan like a 529 plan for college just to show him and get him understanding compound growth.

[John Deloney]

You want to get. You want to get. Use this as an opportunity to really develop yalls relationship. Teach him about how much you tithe and what percentage you use and here's why. And so Instead of tithing 30 maybe you say hey, me and your mom because of this scripture, because of this teaching, because of whatever. Here's how much we taught tithe. It's your money.

[Caller]

You.

[John Deloney]

You're free to do with what you what, what you want. But here's what we do and here's why. And you begin to teach him the why underneath some of these exercises. And I think that can be a really powerful like intimacy. And I like, it's. It's a way to connect with him at a deeper level.

[Caller]

Right.

Yeah. Well, and, and with that like, I mean we. I don't know your guys thoughts. We weren't planning to like override his decision on it. I mean we were thinking too. You, you know, really it's A thousand dollars is going to come and go. Right. Like this is more of a teaching opportunity for him to even experience handling what's a lot of money for someone his age. I mean, would you guys agree with that? To not kind of override? I guess, unless he was doing something crazy. I think crazy's on here.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, I get, I get that question a lot. I. When someone's like, hey, my kid just got 50 bucks for a rake in the neighbor's yard. He wants to blow it on a lego kit and he's 10, I say let him blow it because they're gonna. That's how they're gonna learn. I'd much rather do that than get their first raise at 22 like I did and go buy a stupid truck you can't afford.

[George Kamel]

You want the reg to happen when they're 11 with $1,000 and not 31 with $100,000.

[John Deloney]

That's right.

[George Kamel]

So It's a great lesson to learn because nothing's on fire and there's nothing fatal here. But I would let him have the final say. And you, as sort of a guide can just offer some recommendations and go, what do you think, bud?

[John Deloney]

A great, a great sentence starter with an 11 year old is all right. Teach me about why you want to do this. Teach me about where you came up with the number 300 for. And teach me about wanting to put 200 aside. What, like you want to give away 50%, half of this money? That's amazing. Yeah, tell me about that. And have him just like let him know at, at the age of 11 that he can talk to his dad about stuff, that he can talk to his mom about stuff. Because now you're planting seeds that are going to pay off 10, 20, 30 years from now, which are amazing.

[Caller]

Yeah, absolutely.

[George Kamel]

Does grandma got a commission from the, the winnings.

[John Deloney]

She bet

[George Kamel]

grandma a nice gift. I feel like if grandma bought me a lottery ticket and I hit, I feel like I should get grandma a

[John Deloney]

little something, some flowers. Yeah.

[Caller]

Good idea.

[George Kamel]

Oh, that's awesome. You guys are so great all around. This is a great, great question.

[Caller]

Quick, short follow up with that. Any. We kind of debating on what is he saving for right now and if that should be in a high yield or if that should be in an investment. My thought was the cars probably the next thing you save him for. But any, any input from you guys on that?

[John Deloney]

Put an I owed savings account.

[George Kamel]

Yeah. I mean, car is probably the big one and then college is not too far beyond that. And so I like, I like showing him how short term savings works for goals and then how long term investing works. And I like the mix of both because he'll get a handle on both of these things are important. There's not really a priority here. It just depends on when the goal is going to happen.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Kamel]

So I like us all around. Teach them a little giving, a little short term saving, long term investing, and of course, spending. Spending.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

Let him enjoy himself. He's 11.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. And you may have to look at him and say, hey, you know this Dave Ramsey guy you love? He spends a lot of time in Cabo. Like, you learn to spend your money too. Right. Dave's insanely generous. And Dave has a good time also. Right. So you might have to push him a little bit. Like, hey, we're gonna go spend some of this money. We're gonna have some fun.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Because we want him to enjoy his life.

[George Kamel]

Teaching someone to be well rounded and Balanced. That's one of the most difficult things

[John Deloney]

you can do cuz people tend to fall on one side of the teeter totter or the other.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

All right, we'll be back soon.

[George Kamel]

Hey guys, George Camel here. You ever feel like you make good money and still have nothing to show for it? You run into Target for one thing and Somehow walk out $87 later with toothpaste and emotional support candles. Just me. Okay. Well, that's the problem. Most people don't pay attention to how they spend their money. So it does whatever it wants. And that's why we created EveryDollar. It's a budgeting app that helps you create a simple plan for your money. Everydollar is simple, it's clear and it helps track where your money's actually going. Plus you get daily lessons to DOs and reminders along the way. It's like having a money coach in your pocket. Your money's been freelancing long enough. It's time to give EveryDollar a full time job. Go download EveryDollar for free on the App Store or Google Play

[Caller]

foreign.

[John Deloney]

Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool. It's built and trained on proven Ramsey principles. Today we're going to break down the most asked questions from this past week on Ask Ramsey.

[George Kamel]

Yeah, we got some questions around budgeting, how to pay off debt, building wealth. But the the number one question was around retirement. And this is the age old question. How can I determine if I have enough savings to retire?

[John Deloney]

Age old. I see what you did there.

[George Kamel]

Age old. See like that retirement. This comes down to one core idea. You want to sa you have enough saved so that you can live off the growth without depleting the principal. So without getting it down to zero while you're still alive. That's not fun. So your annual retirement expenses, you can divide that by 0.1. That's your retirement nest egg goal if you're looking at 10% rate of return annually. So if you need 60 grand a year to live on, you need at least $600,000 invested in good gross stock mutual funds averaging 10% annually. So that 60k comes from growth alone. Your principal stayed intact. That's 600 grand if that happens. So to get your number, ask yourself, where do you want to live in retirement? What does your ideal lifestyle look like? Will you have any other income streams like pension, Social Security, part time work? That all gets factored in here. And a few important reminders. If you're young especially, I would not fully count on that Social Security number especially as your primary income, I would

[John Deloney]

absolutely have it be a bonus that may come. I love plan for it to not exist.

[George Kamel]

It's gravy on top. And be completely debt free before you retire. If you follow the Ramsey plan, you don't have a mortgage payment, you don't owe anyone money, you got plenty of money in the bank. You've been investing for several decades. And then health care costs, that's a big, big one. Nobody truly knows what healthcare costs are going to be when you retire. Unless you're retiring this year, then you have a pretty good picture. So that's another piece to factor in. And ask Ramsey can help you get started planning for retirement and it can connect you to a Smartvestor pro. So there's the big caveat when it comes to a decision this big with this much writing on it, I'm not just going to go to AI to figure it out. No, it's a good starting point. But getting connected with an actual registered investment professional who has the heart of a teacher, that's the key. And we've been connecting listeners to them for over 20 years. SmartVestor Pros can help you create and reach those goals, help you make informed investing decisions. So you can find [e-mail] smartvestor and if you want to check out Ask Ramsey, our free AI tool, just jump on a Ramsey solutions dot com.

[John Deloney]

All right, let's roll out to Toronto, Ontario or as Texans call it, Northern Oklahoma and talk to Alex. What's up? Alex? Alex,

[George Kamel]

did we lose him?

[John Deloney]

Alex, you there?

[George Kamel]

It's that Canadian phone line stuff. We just can't figure it out. All right, we'll try. We'll try Alex later on.

[John Deloney]

Let's go to Greg in Charlottesville, Virginia. What's up, Greg?

[Caller]

Hey, John and George, honored to speak with y'. All, huge fans of both your shows.

[John Deloney]

Thank you, brother. Appreciate you, man. Welcome.

[Caller]

What's up? Hey. So my wife and I are having the opportunity to buy the house that we are renting. We've been renting it for five years. We love the property. It's a two and a half acre property, single family home. The reason we have some pause because I've heard Dave talk a lot about manufactured homes and the way they go down in value. This is a double wide that is on a permanent foundation. You know, it's got block foundation the whole way around. The title has also been relinquished to the county. So it's a permanent dwelling. Is does the rule quote that manufactured homes go down in value still apply? To this situation versus one that's parked on a rented piece of land with wheels on it. I've not heard Dave talk about that.

[George Kamel]

I don't know, I just go, if you weren't renting this place, would you guys be on the market going, that's the one.

[Caller]

Probably because of the market in this area.

[George Kamel]

What's it cost for a single family home in your area?

[John Deloney]

$17 million.

[Caller]

So the comp store had like a three bedroom, two bath, 1600 square foot house on two and a half acres is probably 450 around here.

[George Kamel]

Okay.

[Caller]

And we have, we have the opportunity to buy this one for 300.

[George Kamel]

That feels like a lot of money for a house of that type.

[Caller]

Okay. So the landlord, we have a great relationship with him, he's owned it for 15 years and he, we bought it for 90 and it's now appraised right. At 3, 300.

[John Deloney]

Is the home appraising for that or is the land appraising for that?

[Caller]

The whole thing, yeah. The land itself is almost 200.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. I would imagine the land is what's appreciated around this, especially in Toronto, getting 200.

[George Kamel]

The real estate, two and a half

[John Deloney]

acres is the dirt. Yeah.

[George Kamel]

What's your financial situation?

[Caller]

Situation?

It's fine. We have no doubt we're ready to buy.

[George Kamel]

How much do you have in saving?

[Caller]

We love about 50,000.

[George Kamel]

So you'd be taking on a $250,000 mortgage?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

Have you crunched the numbers on a 15 year fixed rate to see what that payment would end up being?

[Caller]

Yeah, it all works fine. We'd be fine. We would actually love to buy it. I was just curious if there was any insights on them. A double wide outside, it looks like a ranch house. It has. No, no, you couldn't tell it's a double wide from the outside. Inside it still has the paneling on the walls. We've lived here for five years, we love it. I was just wanted to, really wanted to get an opinion on that and

[George Kamel]

that's, I mean obviously it's appreciated but I think that's because of the dirt, not because of the house. So I don't want to, I don't want you to be misled thinking that well, this house is going to be worth 500,000. It may one day, but that's going to be largely due to the dir. That house will be scrapped and they'll put something else on there.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, give, given the way, how they've surrendered the title, etc. Etc. I, I can't give you an answer. I Don't know.

[George Kamel]

We'd be lying if we were like, it absolutely will do this or this. I would just, personally, if, if you're not ready to buy a traditional single family home, then I would just pause and keep renting and wait to get that $400,000 house a year or two

[John Deloney]

from now or at the very, very least, brother, I know you've lived there for five years. I would still go through the entire rigamaru and get a full home inspection on it and talk to an inspector. Even though you've lived there and said, no, we know, we know everything about this house. We, we've lived there for five years. I don't want someone to come through. I, that'd be worth the money for me to make sure I knew what I was getting into and what it's worth. And you may want to check with a, with a mortgage professional in your area and check and see if there's lending law differences on mobile homes versus traditional homes. I, I just don't have enough, I don't, I don't know enough. Dave might know that off top of his head.

[Caller]

I talked with, I talked with Churchill and they, they, we've started the process.

[John Deloney]

Okay. Okay. And I trust, I trust them. I mean I've trusted them multiple times.

[George Kamel]

And so what do you guys make

[Caller]

about 80?

[George Kamel]

Okay. I'm just trying to think how long would it take you guys to save up another 50 grand or 70 grand? Would that be two, three years at least?

[Caller]

Because so right now we have, we've been married for the five years that we've lived here and we've saved the 50 and 5, but we've been only paying 1,000 in rent. If we move out, which the landlord has said, we're either moving out or we're buying anything else in the area is 1800-2500 in rent. We're renting from my employer actually. So we've been getting a great deal with that. So if we, you know, if we move out, that's kind of one of the other motivations for just buying it because of what rent is going to be if we, if we just move out.

[George Kamel]

Yeah, but rent is temporary and this home is a long term decision. So that's the piece I'm thinking through is 10 years from now, are you going to be really glad you bought this thing? Thing, or are you going to go, man? It probably wasn't the smartest decision at the time. We were kind of strong armed into it with this ultimatum of either go rent for 1800 or buy it. And so that's the part that I don't like doing this from a place of sort of urgency.

[John Deloney]

I have to. I got to keep my boss happy. I've got to keep my. Yeah, yeah.

[George Kamel]

But it sounds like you guys, what if we. You've made the decision just like, was this. Should we be go continue down this path?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Kamel]

What if you. What.

[Caller]

What if we bought it thinking we would sell it in five to seven years?

[John Deloney]

That's what I can't give you an answer on. If it was a traditional mobile home, I would say it's going to go down in value because it's by itself on two and a half acres. There's a possibility in Toronto that the dirt appreciates pretty significantly.

[George Kamel]

That's what you're hoping for in that scenario. And that's just.

[John Deloney]

There's a Campbell that I can't see a world where the home appreciates, but maybe the dirt will appreciate. But nobody can look in a crystal ball like that.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, let's cut to the chase. It's easy to get discouraged about crazy house prices and interest rates. But when you have the right real estate agent to help you buy and sell the right way, you'll have confidence to make smart decisions. Ramsey trusted agents aren't just experts who guide you through buying or selling. They're people you can trust to have your back from the first call to closing day. Find a Ramsey trusted agent near [e-mail] agent. That's ramseysolutions.com.

[John Deloney]

Today's scripture of the day is 1st Peter 5:8. Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy, the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Jordan Peterson says, don't be a slave to stupid rules. Like your clothes have to match all the time.

[George Kamel]

George, How'd you know?

[John Deloney]

Well, I can just see your clothes match.

[George Kamel]

Fashion has rules.

[John Deloney]

Mine don't always. They may be stupid rules.

[George Kamel]

Jordan Peterson famously wears matching suits.

[John Deloney]

His suits are pretty fancy. Yeah. Let's go out to James in Boston. Hey, James. What's up, man?

[Caller]

Hey. How's it going?

[John Deloney]

Doing all right, brother. How are you, man?

[Caller]

Hey. Doing pretty good. So me and my fiance, we're both 20. We have one kid together right now. And did you say you're 20? Yes.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

We both moved out when I was 16. She moved out when she was 17. Neither of us have parents behind us at this point. And we recently found out that I'm terminally ill and I have like 10 to 12 years that's the kind of estimate.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

And so what's the diagnosis, man? I mean, I would like to keep it private, but it's more having to do with brain function.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

And so yeah, so I make like about 30 an hour right now. She makes about 25 an hour. And so I guess my question is we both are going to school right now. I'm going to school to be electrician, she's going to school to be a registered nurse. And with like 10 to 12 years left, I was wondering if it would be better for us to go out and take a loan out to get a house. Now that's something that she has for when I'm gone or wait a couple years until we're both settled in our jobs. And I don't think the size of that house would change much. But you know, we can do a lot of the work ourselves for fixing it up up. But yeah, I guess that would be my question.

[John Deloney]

So first off, man, you're pretty sober minded for a 20 year old with a, with a young child and a fiance. And it's like to just tell you man, I hate that you're in this position. I hate it for you, man.

[Caller]

Yeah, me too.

[John Deloney]

Well, yeah, especially how long you been wrestling with this diagnosis?

[Caller]

For the past year now. A year now. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

So it's, it's set in, this is happening, right?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.

[John Deloney]

This isn't going to be any help at all. But can I just say this, I have close friends who work in pretty advanced medicine right now, especially with this influx of wild new technology. And, and for whatever it's worth, it may be worth keeping a light on the, the story I'm being told. There's, there's going to be some earth shattering transformations in health technology over the next five to six years and I'll be praying for you, man. And I hope that some of these discoveries and some of these new interventions may be able to support you and, and change your life. Life, man.

[Caller]

Yeah, no, definitely. I mean I try and live my life like there's going to be a cure and try and live each day to its fullest, you know, Love it.

[John Deloney]

The last thing on earth I would do is sign up for a chain myself to any sort of payment that I'm going to have to make because with, with a 10 to 12 year window they, I'm sure they told you that might be six years to too. Might be five years also, right?

[Caller]

No, it's at least 10 years, but yeah, no more than 15. But like, yeah, at least 10 years.

[John Deloney]

I, I, I wouldn't recommend that. I, I love the idea of your wife going to get a, or your fiance about to be your wife. I love the idea of her getting a certification like this that's going to give her a career. After you've passed you entering into being an electrician right now. I mean that's a seven year process, isn't it? Before you're fully elected, licensed.

[Caller]

Yeah, I have some, some scholarships to get some money off of that and also do a kind of fast paced course.

[John Deloney]

How quickly could you get out into the field?

[Caller]

I think four years. But I have a friend that's going to be able to help me get, he had electrical company and he's going to help me get in there early and do work for him.

[John Deloney]

So here's what I want you to keep in, in mind. Mind the single most precious resource you have right now is time, right? And so if I'm looking at a three year old who's about to be a four year old and I'm looking at one to two to three more years of having to work five million hours a week to try to get my journeyman's license to do this, and I'm making 30 bucks an hour right now in my current job and my wife's about to be a registered nurse and maybe we could invest in her so that she can go get her nurse practitioner degree or she can get her, her bachelor's in nursing. Like that would be where I begin to look at what's the best thing I can do to provide. Is, is it also going to school just because I have some scholarship opportunities or am I going to be the greatest foundation and anchor so that she can go build an amazing life? So in the event I'm not here, she is so set up to go do whatever she wants to do, right?

[Caller]

Yeah, but time, no, that's really what I want to do for her.

[John Deloney]

Time is the thing. Thing. And so if time means you're going to be at home and you're going to be an anchored presence, you're making 30 bucks an hour, which is a great hourly wage, man. You're, you're, you're not going to, you know, you're not going to go buy a 17,000ft house with 30 bucks an hour, but man, that's a good wage. Especially if you can support her. She can go get a nursing degree debt free. You can spend precious, precious time with this baby that's coming. That's where my head goes, George. What do you Think.

[George Kamel]

Yeah. Are you, do you guys have any debt currently?

[Caller]

Currently, no, no debt.

[George Kamel]

Do you have savings in the bank?

[Caller]

Yeah, about 10 grand.

[George Kamel]

Awesome. Well, I definitely would not go out and buy a house right now. It's not going to give you the stability you think because that payment's going to stay that payment. And if something were to happen to you, well, now she's on the hook for that payment, otherwise she needs to sell this house. And so I would wait until you guys are financially ready to buy this house as if you didn't have this diagnosis and just save up a strong down payment. I mean, I'm from the Boston area. I, I don't think you can get a house at 20 within a 30 mile radius of the city without.

[Caller]

So I don't live in Boston, but it's in a rural area. So it's.

[George Kamel]

What is a house going to cost?

[Caller]

You can get some for 225 to 300 grand.

[George Kamel]

Okay, so it's still even making out with rates right now. You might still be looking at, you know, almost a six figure down payment to do this the right way, where it's 25% of your, your monthly take home pay. And then I would work to pay this thing off the next 10 to 15 years.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Kamel]

And so putting a huge down payment, buying a reasonable home, that's going to help you knock out the mortgage fast. That's the best thing you can do for her, is leave her with no mortgage payment, no debt, a bunch of money in the bank. In the meantime, invest for the future, invest for that child for college in a 529 plan. Invest in your own retirement that she will then inherit one day and so that you leave her in the best position possible to where she's not scrambling.

[Caller]

So what if in a couple of years she's going to be a registered nurse and she's making close to 50 an hour. Could I, in these next few years be saving both of us saving up a bunch of cash to put down like whatever, 50 grand or something like that?

[John Deloney]

Absolutely, yeah.

[George Kamel]

That would be my next goal for you guys is every dollar is focused on that down payment fund and we're just putting in a high yield savings account for the, the next, let's say two years. How much money could you guys sock away in two years doing this?

[Caller]

That's hard to say. I would say 25 or maybe 30. I would say 30 would be so

[George Kamel]

15 grand a year, a little over a thousand bucks a month is what you guys could do right now.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, probably and also cash flow. Her nursing school.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah.

[George Kamel]

I mean, that's the plan. And if it takes another year or two after that to get the down payment, once her income's up, up, then I would do that. Because you're probably going to need at least 50, 60, 70 down on a $230,000 home in order to keep it at that 25% of take home pay. So that's the, that's the math equation you're trying to solve for here. And so the baby steps still apply. The math is the math. I would have a will in place. I'm assuming you don't have term life insurance at the time of the diagnosis. Okay.

[John Deloney]

And I'll tell you this, having sat with.

[Caller]

I have a question.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, go, go real, real fast.

[Caller]

I got test, I got tested. Without my legal name, can I still get life insurance?

[George Kamel]

I doubt it. With the diagnosis, they're going to look up every single medical record you've ever had. Regardless.

[Caller]

There, there would be no medical record.

[John Deloney]

Well, I mean, but you're going to have to, I mean, you're going to have to purge yourself.

[George Kamel]

Yeah. It would be fraud at that point.

[John Deloney]

So they're going to ask you if you have any diagnosis, whatever, you can

[George Kamel]

still contact them to see what your options are. There might be like a guaranteed issue policy. It's expensive, it helps cover like part of the mortgage, but it's not going to be what you usually could get.

[John Deloney]

We'll be thinking about you, brother James. Thanks for the call, my man. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace and that's to walk daily with a prince of peace. Christ Jesus.