The Hard Road Is The One That Moves You Forward

Summary

The Ramsey Show – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Ramsey Show
Episode Title: The Hard Road Is The One That Moves You Forward
Date: December 1, 2025
Host: Dave Ramsey
Co-Host: Rachel Cruze

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Episode Overview

In this Thanksgiving eve episode, Dave Ramsey and Rachel Cruze reflect on gratitude and the importance of faith and resilience during difficult times. The discussion weaves together historical perspective, real-life money management questions, and advice-hardened wisdom on matters ranging from career change and blended families to buying a house or car, handling adult children, and legacy planning. As always, callers must start by sharing what they’re thankful for—a theme that grounds the episode in gratitude even as financial challenges are tackled head-on.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Power of Gratitude and Historical Context

• 00:05-09:00
  • Dave opens with Abraham Lincoln’s 1863 Thanksgiving proclamation, highlighting faith and gratitude in the midst of hardship (the Civil War).
  • Notable quote:

    "The President of the United States issues a proclamation to say thank you to God for his blessings. And if you didn't hear that in there, you weren't listening." —Dave Ramsey [08:01]

  • Reflects on how far public discourse has moved from such explicit gratitude and faith.

2. Insurance and Protecting Your Family

• 09:04-10:33
  • Dave and Rachel stress the importance of term life and long-term disability insurance.
  • Clear advice: Take whatever insurance your employer offers; otherwise, use a recommended provider.

3. When to Make a Career Leap

• 10:33-16:25
  • Caller: Bradley from Oregon
    • Wants to leave a stable job (which he dislikes) to become a full-time farrier.
    • Dave’s advice: Don’t quit until your side hustle consistently brings in income close to your current salary. Prove the market, crank up hustle, and avoid relying on savings that's quickly depleted.
    • Memorable quote:

      "I would prescribe that you take your side hustle and make it highly uncomfortable for a year… walking out on the other thing is very easy." —Dave Ramsey [14:34]

4. Should We Buy a Car or a Home While in Debt?

• 17:14-20:05
  • Caller: Abby from Virginia Beach
    • $50k in student loans, $17k saved, cramped cars, considering new car & house.
    • Dave & Rachel: Pay off debt first; make do with current cars and don’t buy a house until debt-free.
    • "Buckle the kids in the tight little car for a year and get yourself clear, girl." —Dave Ramsey [20:05]

5. Life Insurance, Wills & Blended Families

• 22:15-31:51
  • Caller: Brian from Oregon
    • Blending families, debate over leaving life insurance for adult children versus new spouse.
    • Dave: Life insurance is to replace lost income—not to leave an estate for adult children.
    • Estate planning is more complex with blended families; communication and clear wills are a must.
    • "Everyone needs a will. And if you're gonna piss somebody off with a will, do it while you're alive." —Dave Ramsey [29:47]
  • Rachel shares recent event experience: Many couples delay even basic will creation.

6. Trusting Your Instincts with Financial Products & Family Offers

• 54:19–63:34
  • Caller: Thomas from Austin, Texas
    • Feels uneasy about a family member offering investment advice.
    • Dave: Trust your gut. Most new insurance/investment brokers “work their natural market” and quickly leave the business; you shouldn’t mix family and money if it feels off.

    • "No is a complete sentence."

    • "Trust the smell." —Dave Ramsey [62:54]

7. Communicating About Money in Marriage

• 34:50–43:34
  • Caller: Jake from North Dakota
    • Merging finances, getting spouse on board with "gazelle intensity" to pay off $116k debt (mainly cars & second mortgage).
    • Rachel: Lead by example, dream together about being debt-free, map out scenarios to make the goal concrete.

8. Parental Boundaries and Adult Children’s Expectations

• 44:55–53:51
  • Caller: Mike from Tampa
    • Daughter wants a Spanish destination wedding after already eloping; expects parents to pay.
    • Dave: No obligation to fund an adult child’s wedding, especially after the fact. Prepare for possible fallout, set boundaries.
    • Rachel: Keep explanations simple and kind, and avoid conditions that feel accusatory.
    • Notable quote:

      "This request is not entitlement, it's a guilt trip." —Dave Ramsey [48:00]

9. Retirement, Spending, and Giving

• 75:53–84:16
  • Caller: Sylvia, a 66-year-old nurse
    • Recently lost her sister; struggles to shift from lifelong saving to spending/giving as she enters retirement ($1.5M net worth).
    • Dave explains: Your “giving” and “spending” muscles need exercise; don’t worry about overspending—you’re more at risk of under-enjoying your resources.

10. Paying Off the House Early

• 66:36–70:53
  • Caller: John from Los Angeles
    • $200k windfall, ponders paying off the mortgage with a low interest rate.
    • Dave: Do it. Data shows almost no millionaires keep a mortgage for “the spread.” None regret being debt-free.

11. Young Couples: Renting vs. Buying

• 71:02–74:53
  • Caller: Tyler from Atlanta
    • Debates whether to buy immediately, rent, or live with parents.
    • Dave: Rent a cheap place for at least six months to a year first, establish marriage, pile up cash, and then buy.

12. Ambitious Saving & The Home-Buying Horizon

• 89:54–95:38
  • Caller: Saul from Boston, MA
    • Young couple aiming to save $500k and buy a home with cash.
    • Dave: Use index funds for 3+ year goals, but expect incomes and life stages to change, possibly accelerating savings. Stay focused, and don’t fall into the myth of borrowing just because prices may rise.

13. Business Ethics: Offering Customer Financing

• 95:38-101:57
  • Caller: Vince from North Dakota
    • New HVAC business owner, doesn’t want to push debt/financing like his former employer.
    • Dave: Don’t become a “financier” if you’re not in the banking business. Refer customers elsewhere if needed; providing financing is not the path to business success.

14. Tough Calls: Divorce Fallout, Single Parenting & College Choices

• 106:26–114:49
  • Caller: Jenny from Savannah
    • Deeply in debt from legal/credit card/car loans after a tough divorce.
    • Dilemma: Move in with elderly father to save money, which inconveniences kids’ school commute; daughter wants expensive out-of-state college.
    • Dave and Rachel: Sacrifice for now; insist on in-state, affordable education for kids.
    • Notable quote:

      "Please remember the car deal when you couldn't look at her and say no. This time you've got to say no. You're gonna bankrupt your kid." —Dave Ramsey [112:10]

  • Expanded Discussion: Parents must set hard boundaries, saying no to unaffordable college choices overrides guilt or a wish to make kids happy in the short-term.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On mixing faith and finance:

  "Thank God, it is God that the watchful providence of Almighty God and the almighty hand." —Dave Ramsey [08:19]

• On career pivots:

  "Make it highly uncomfortable for a year... proving to yourself and your wife you can make a living." —Dave Ramsey [14:34]

• On wills and family drama:

  "If you're gonna piss somebody off with a will, do it while you are alive. Don't leave it to the people left behind." —Dave Ramsey [29:47]

• On trusting your instincts:

  "No is a complete sentence." —Rachel Cruze [57:07]
  "Trust the smell." —Dave Ramsey [62:54]

• On parenting and boundaries:

  "I will not help you wreck your life. And I will do everything I can to talk you out of it and to stand in your way." —Dave Ramsey [124:09]

• On the myth of expensive colleges leading to success:

  "There’s zero credible research that says where you went to school causes your success. Zero." —Dave Ramsey [120:42]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening/Thanksgiving Proclamation & Reflections: 00:05–09:00
• Insurance 101: 09:04–10:33
• Side Hustle to Career Change (Bradley): 10:33–16:25
• Debt vs. Car/Home Purchase (Abby): 17:14–20:05
• Life Insurance & Blended Families: 22:15–31:51
• Merging Finances & Marriage (Jake): 34:50–43:34
• Parental Giving & Boundaries (Mike): 44:55–53:51
• Family Selling Financial Products (Thomas): 54:19–63:34
• Retirement, Spending, & Giving (Sylvia): 75:53–84:16
• Mortgage Payoff Debate (John): 66:36–70:53
• Rent vs. Buy for Newlyweds (Tyler): 71:02–74:53
• Aggressive House Saving Strategy (Saul): 89:54–95:38
• Business Owning & Financing Ethics (Vince): 95:38–101:57
• Single Mom/College Choice Crisis (Jenny): 106:26–114:49
• The Parenting Crisis in Higher Ed: 117:13–125:44

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

Throughout this episode, the tough-love Ramsey formula is ever-present: face reality, pursue the hard road for long-term gain, set clear boundaries, and never mix emotion with money decisions. Whether you're wrestling with career changes, family drama, or the pressures of parenthood and legacy, the recurring advice is to take the hard road—the road of discipline, open communication, and heartfelt gratitude.

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For listeners: This rich, generous episode is stuffed with practical examples, actionable advice, and reminders that "the hard road is the one that moves you forward." If you missed it, let this summary serve as your how-to guide until you can catch the full episode—especially as you reflect, count blessings, and make bold decisions this holiday season.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Rachel Cruze, number one best selling author, Ramsey personality and my daughter is my co host on this Thanksgiving eve. If you don't know William Henry Seward. William Seward was Abraham Lincoln's Secretary of State. He was also the brains behind that presidency in a lot of ways, including he wrote a lot of Abraham Lincoln's speeches that became world renowned and famous, including this proclamation that was issued October 3, 1863, right in the middle of the Civil War. The Civil War would end about 18 months after this proclamation was issued by the President of the United States of America. Here's Lincoln. The year that is drawing towards its close has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come. Others have been added which are of so extraordinary a nature that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity which has sometimes seemed to foreign states to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations. Order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere, except in the theater of military conflict. While that theater has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defense have not arrested the plow, the shuttle or the ship. The axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements. And the mines as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased. Notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battlefield, and the country rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the most high God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged and fervently implore the interposition of the almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the divine purposes, to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility and union. In testimony whereof I have heretofore set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed, done at the city of Washington this third day of October, the year of our Lord 1863. President Abraham Lincoln. Wow. I've read that every year that I've been on the air for 30 something years and I never get over it. Some of you people think I'm a cornball, but it's my show, so shut up. I'm just signing up for head cornball. That's me. But I mean, the President of the United States issues a proclamation to say thank you to God for his blessings. And if you didn't hear that in there, you weren't listening. That's exactly what this says. And it's so far afield from the way people think today, and especially people in Washington, D.C. think today. But man, what a great reminder of the greatness of these men and that their source was their faith.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, well, and the acknowledgement of where they were at, you know, they were not naive to what was going on. And even the line with the. I don't know if I've ever. I mean, you said you've read this for every.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I read it. Read it every Thanksgiving eve.

[Rachel Cruze]

Done the show with you on this show.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's part of the other part of the cornball experience. The other part of the cornball experience is, as you call in today, you have to tell us what you're thankful for. That's your ticket to own the show.

[Rachel Cruze]

There you go. One thing I love It. But no, it was the part with those who are mourning and those who are orphaned and widowed. You know what I mean? Like, it's the reality of the world. And so I like that they don't shy, that he doesn't shy away from it. And yet rising above to the greatest message of what can be and what we're all. You know what I mean? It rises you up out of it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, it's a different and even. I mean, Seward is Secretary of State, so he goes ahead and sends a message to, to the other countries that think they might come in while we're weakened and let them know, Right, we're at peace with you and you probably want to keep it that way. He just sent a. He just sent a little stupid question out over the bow there.

[Rachel Cruze]

This is it. This is what caused Thanksgiving. Like, this is Thanksgiving, the official.

[Dave Ramsey]

This is the formation. Now, George. George Washington did a proclamation that actually, I don't know whether AI's got this wrong because it's picking it up out of Reddit because nothing you read on Reddit's true. But somebody posted a thing the other day that sounded similar to this from Washington. So I, I don't know if that's a mess up or if Seward stole some of Washington's proclamation, but George Washington did do a Thanksgiving. But this is the time that the actual made it a national holiday holiday. The third Thursday of November, and it was in the middle of the Civil War. And it is so poetic. And people don't say beneficent anymore. I've never said beneficent in my life except when I've read this. So. Yeah, that's just. I mean, it's amazing though, when you just say the hand of the Almighty. I mean, this is vernacular that we don't use and we probably should. Hello. We probably ought to step back and go, who is really in charge here? Guess what? It's not a Republican or a Democrat. Get. Thank God, you know, I mean. Cause they can mess up Christmas and Thanksgiving and so, I mean, my gosh, but thank God, you know, thank God. It is God that the watchful providence of Almighty God and the almighty hand.

[Rachel Cruze]

To heal the wounds of a nation and to restore it.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's beautiful. Yep, beautiful. Very poetic.

[Rachel Cruze]

Happy Thanksgiving, y'.

[Dave Ramsey]

All. Happy Thanksgiving. Amen. Open phones here at 888-8255. Dave. We got a lot of calls on this show where life happens.

[Caller]

One day someone's healthy, they're working, providing.

[Dave Ramsey]

For their family, and then a curveball hits. You Know, we hear it all the time. A car accident, a cancer diagnosis, a heart attack, and suddenly everything changes. Yeah. And that's why you've always said that having term life insurance from Zander is essential because it protects your family if the worst happens. Yeah, that's right. You need 10 to 12 times your income in coverage. No gimmicks, no whole life junk, just straightforward term life protection. But there's another piece that people often overlook and that's long term disability insurance. Yeah, it's important to understand the difference between them.

[Caller]

Life insurance steps in which when you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Die, disability insurance steps in while you're alive but can't work. So it replaces a large part of your income so the bills still get paid while you get back on your feet. Now, if your employer gives you free disability insurance, great, take it. If it's discounted there at a better price, take it. But if not, Zander can help you find the right plan. Whether you're single or married. It's not optional. If you're going to be out of work for a while, then you need to make sure the money's still showing up. And that's why Zander is our go to. They make it super simple to get the right coverage at the best price. No pressure, no upselling. I've trusted Jeff, Zander and Zander insurance for over 25 years and so has my family. So don't wait. It's fast, it's easy, and it could make all the difference.

[Caller]

Go to zander.com or call 800-356-4282.

[Dave Ramsey]

Protect yourself, protect your income, protect your family. Bradley is with us in Oregon. Happy Thanksgiving. Bradley, what are you thankful for?

[Caller]

I am thankful to live in America.

[Dave Ramsey]

Amen.

[Caller]

A lot of countries in the world, like you know what, for all the problems in America, I'd rather take here. I'm thankful that almighty God put me here.

[Dave Ramsey]

Amen. Amen. Thank you. Sir, how can we help you?

[Caller]

Yeah, quick question. This might be one of the shorter calls on the Ramsey show. My question is, where in the baby steps is a person financially secure enough to quit a job that they don't like and start doing what they do want to do? My current job is paying decently well, but otherwise I don't like it. As soon as I get to the point where I know that I can quit, I will hand in my resignation notice.

[Dave Ramsey]

What would you go do? What would you go do?

[Caller]

Training and training horses and trimming your hooves. I can make pretty good money underneath a horse. The only problem is that I need to get the clientele built up and so there'd be a couple months time lag there that I need to have something.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is it called a fair, a furry or ferrier? What's it called?

[Caller]

A farrier?

[Dave Ramsey]

Ferrier, yeah.

[Caller]

Horseshoeing, trimming, that kind of thing.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And so why can't you start that as a side hustle?

[Caller]

I do that on Saturdays and holidays and evenings and stuff like that. As I do my current job, I'm working up to 60 hours a week, so there's not always a whole lot of time in the evenings and stuff like that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Can you dial back the hours on the job you hate?

[Caller]

Unfortunately, no.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Because what I'd love to do is it's not a baby steps thing and it's not really how much money you have in the bank thing. It's a. Can you. When you can get your income on the farrier side, hustle up close to your current income, then it make, you know, you can make as much doing that, then go do something you like instead of something you hate. Right. So what are you making as a farrier? What was your income last year?

[Caller]

Well, I don't have. Not a full time. It's just.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know. Did you not pay taxes on it? No. Okay, so what did you make? Give me an idea.

[Caller]

It's about $100 an hour when I do it. So a Saturday could be 300, $400 without any problem at all.

[Dave Ramsey]

So let's say you're making a couple grand a month on a good month.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you make at your day job?

[Caller]

About 5,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

A month.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right. So how close do you want to get the 2000 to the 5000 before you walk out, is the question. Pretty close. I want to step into the boat. I don't want to leap to the boat.

[Caller]

Right, exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I'm going to figure out some way to dial up the side hustle and get that moving. And the only other thing you could do is just pile up a huge pile of cash to cover you to and make the transition. But honestly, I've had people that screws them up because then they live out of that cash instead of making their business work. And I want you to make this new business work and know that it's going to work and know there's enough horses in your area, enough business in your area for you to make five, six thousand dollars a month.

[Rachel Cruze]

And do you feel like, realistically, Bradley, that that's. That's possible?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's definitely possible. There's quite a bit of money in this area and a lot of horses. Pasture ordinance kind of thing.

[Rachel Cruze]

For your.

[Dave Ramsey]

Who's your competition?

[Caller]

Not very many people, unfortunately. Farriers have a reputation for not returning calls and stuff like that. So anybody that returns calls.

[Dave Ramsey]

So if you're price reasonable, your price reasonable, return the call and show up, business is going to be all over.

[Rachel Cruze]

You probably Bradley, for a month. How much does it take to operate your household where you're not stressed but you're like you're comfortable?

[Caller]

4,000 is pretty tight.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Does your wife work?

[Caller]

She's a full time stay at home mom. She works more than I do.

[Dave Ramsey]

I didn't mean that. I mean I should have said does she earn an income? I'm sorry. Okay. No is the answer. So she does not earn an income. He. Yeah. I just want you to get close to where you're not just, you know, jumping off and praying there's water in the pool. Right. And the only way to do that is some. I would prescribe and I've done this, that's why I can say it. I would prescribe that you take your side hustle and make it highly uncomfortable for a year because you're working like an absolute maniac to prove to yourself and your wife that you can make a living doing that by getting your income up to three, four or five thousand dollars a month on the side hustle and push back on your existing job. Try to get as much time as you can away from them legally without hurting them in any way and that kind of thing. But 60 hours is pretty much a stretch. If you can get dialed back towards 40, you could really use that extra hours to crank up and that means you're not going to see a television or a sporting event. You're going to be doing horses hooves for a year, dude, like all the time. Because if you prove to yourself that you can do this, walking out on the other thing is very easy.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Let me give you an example. Let's pretend and this can't happen, but let's pretend that you could make $7,000 a month with a side hustle. You could quit your job in about 30 seconds. Right. That's what I'm trying to get you toward. You're not going to get to seven, but if I can get you close to the five, then it's easy to make this decision.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, and I assume too if there's people around, if you're making 2 to 3,000 on just Saturdays and nights, you can easily pick up Another thousand. So to me, it feels. Feels doable.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. I think what I'm telling you is crank up the intensity about six notches on the side. Hustle to prove to yourself that it's okay to quit and make it your full time gig. That's the prescription. It's not a baby step thing and it's not a, you gotta have $10,000 in the bank. It's not any of that. Because if you had $40,000 in the bank and you burn $4,000 a month in 10 months, cause you suck at doing this business on the side and it doesn't pan out, all you did is quit your job and go broke. And that's not what I want you to do. And sometimes people do that stuff. So doing it this way makes you prove to yourself that the market is there, that you can make a living doing this. And you build it and grow it from there. And that's exactly the direction I would go. Abby's with us in Virginia Beach. Hey, Abby, what are you thankful for?

[Caller]

Hi. I'm thankful for family. I have a husband and two little babies right now.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yay. Busy at your house. How can we help today?

[Caller]

I have a question about debt and then buying a car and then renting versus buying. But anyway, my husband and I are on baby step number two. We have about $50,000 left in our debt, and we have 202 right now. And we're thinking about purchasing a new car just because the two little kids. Our cars are cramped right now. And then also we're renting currently. My husband's in the military, but we were thinking about buying a house. So just curious what your perspective on those would be.

[Rachel Cruze]

Are the cars, are they running okay? Abby?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, they're both 2015. My car, I mean, they're. They're both, you know, 10 years right now. So they are starting to have little things. Like I just replaced my AC a couple months ago. My husband just had to get something done on his car. I can't remember, but they're both kind of like having small hiccups currently.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. And do you guys have any money saved?

[Caller]

We do. We have about $17,000 in like our savings emergency fund.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And how much debt do you have? 50.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, so I would.

[Caller]

About 50. Yeah, it's student loan debt. My husband went to law school, so we've paid about 25,000 of it. Or. No, I'm sorry, about 30,000 of it. But we have 50 to go.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Well, yeah, So I would. Honestly, Abby, I would Throw that money at the debt. And I would, I would be driving the cars until you guys are out of baby step too. So, no, you don't need to buy a house. And I really wouldn't even buy a new car. I mean, I would, I would push myself. And it is. I know there's probably so much stuff, but with two kids, what's your household income?

[Caller]

He makes about 100,000 a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

So if you put 16 of the 17 on the debt and had $1,000, which is the true baby, then you would actually be on baby step two right now. You're not. Okay. Then you would have $33,000 left, and you make $100,000 a year. And you live on beans and rice. Rice and beans. And you attack this debt with a vengeance. Aren't you out of debt in a year?

[Caller]

Yeah, I would hope so.

[Dave Ramsey]

I would hope so too. And so one year from now, you move up in cars and then you start saving towards your emergency fund, and then you start saving towards the house.

[Caller]

Okay, I guess to not hold you guys up. But also with the, like, attacking the debt, is it, I guess, how do I say this? I don't work. I'm a stay at home mom. So like, sometimes trying to attack debt is hard because I don't work.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, it's not hard. You make 100. Your husband makes $100,000 a year. You need 33. That leaves 67. If you want to do some side stuff, that's fine. But you have two littles. You being at home, we're not going to shame you for if that's what you're asking. But buckle the kids in the tight little car for a year and get yourself clear, girl. And then you can go live a good life. This is Dave Ramsey. We all want to know that the money we give to charity is doing something that matters, that it's making a real change, giving someone lasting hope. And here's one way to make sure of that. Give to preborn. They're the real deal. Proven transparent and changing lives every day. I trust preborn, and you can too. They're on the front lines of the battle for life, partnering with clinics to offer free ultrasounds to mothers in crisis. Because when a mom sees her baby on that screen, something changes. It's not just a decision anymore. It's a person. And 80% of the time, when a mom sees that ultrasound, she chooses life. Your $28 gift provides one of those ultrasounds, just 28 bucks, to be the reason someone chooses life. And at every Clinic. The gospel is shared. Giving moms the chance to choose life and find real hope in Christ. $28. One ultrasound, one heartbeat. One mom who realizes she's not alone. That's the kind of life changing impact your giving makes through preborn. Go now to Preborn.com Ramsey or call 855-601-2229. That's Preborn.com Ramsey. Brian is in Oregon. Brian, what are you thankful for on this Thanksgiving eve?

[Caller]

Family for sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

Amen. How can we help today?

[Caller]

So thanks for taking my call. My fiance and I are having a debate we want your help with. So May 8th of 26, we will be blending families. And we have five children. 30, 29, 28, 27, and 23. I have two life insurance policy, one that she is the sole beneficiary of and then one that my children would be the sole beneficiaries of. So she thinks that I should leave both policies to her and let her distribute that equally and. Which I'm not in disagreement with. I just. We're just kind of looking for some direction that way.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. The purpose of life insurance is not to leave an estate. The purpose of life insurance is to support the people you leave behind that are counting on your income to eat. None of those grown people should be counting on your income to eat.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so I would not keep a life insurance in order to distribute to them, whether directly or indirectly through her. That's not a reason to keep life insurance. I wouldn't go to the expense. I would use my money, bill, wealth and let that be distributed to either her or them in the will. And you can decide that then you make.

[Caller]

A year. Well, that's. That's a great question. Barely graduated from high school. Almost flunked out of college, but withdrew before they kicked me out. And I make probably about 180 a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, sounds like you've overachieved. Well done. Good for you, buddy. What do you do, man? That's awesome.

[Caller]

Well, I'm blessed. I have a dream job. I'm an electrical inspector. And then I have a side hustle.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you. And what does your fiance do?

[Caller]

She's a teacher.

[Dave Ramsey]

Ah, okay. So she makes what?

[Caller]

She makes maybe 60 to 70 a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, cool. All right. So what I would do is put your new household together in such a way that if something happened to you, that she's in good shape. That's what insurance is for. And the same thing vice versa. If you're dependent upon her 70 a year to eat, then we Would want to replace that income by having a lump sum to invest. And that's what life insurance is for. But to leave it to a 31 year old child? No, not in a chance. I'm not keeping that. I'll put that money in my pocket.

[Caller]

Until I want you to know that. She's probably smiling very. She said that very same thing.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, wow.

[Rachel Cruze]

So I do wonder though, it's always hard with blended families. When you get married later and you have adult children and a new spouse enters when you are redoing your will.

[Dave Ramsey]

Your estate, it's very difficult to figure out what to do.

[Rachel Cruze]

So that would be more of a question, Brian, I think for your kids, of what's left to them of yours.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, let's say you had a million dollars in your 401ks, right? You're saying instead of life insurance, we're changing the discussion to keep the. But to keep the spirit of the question alive for a second. Yeah. What would we do with that? How do you distribute that to a blended family? Well, the first thing I would do, I don't know. Okay, so. Or like if you came into this marriage with some money as an example that kind of in your mind is allocated to your kids upon your death more than your spouse. But you obviously love this person and want to take care of them with some of the money you're bringing into the marriage. So that's something that's the same sticky wicket as they say, that you've got to have that same exact discussion but with a different product. Not life insurance, but a pile of wealth. If you don't have a pile of wealth today, you don't have to figure that out. But it does spread. It is a good thing. It's a healthy discussion to have, especially in the fiance stage.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, that's. I was wondering with your fiance where the spirit was. Don't leave them anything, they're fine. Or was it, oh no, it's life insurance. They don't need life insurance. Do you know what I mean? I'm sure that's what I was trying to gauge of.

[Caller]

Yeah, no, I think it's. I think it's more of what you said, that they're 30 year olds, they don't need any kind of large lump sum of money to. And it's not that she wouldn't distribute it equally, it's just that I just had a notion that I just wanted to do it that way.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I mean, so what, what I would tell you guys to work through a similar question so the question is, she wins on the life insurance thing. Okay, you don't need life insurance to do that, so let's don't do that. But now let's have a similar discussion that says, as we build wealth, if I die before you or you die before me, how much of it's going to be left to the remaining spouse? And how much of it's going to be left to the kiddos? And if you guys are starting without much wealth right now, you're starting your new marriage without a big net worth, it probably would just be it all goes to spouse, and the spouse figures it out. But oftentimes, when you got blended, one of you is coming into the like, I own a house and I got $400,000 worth of equity in that. Okay. And the fiance's. How does that go to the fiance's kids?

[Rachel Cruze]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, that doesn't make sense. Kind of, you know, and you kind of gotta go, ugh, I don't gotta talk through that. And these are good, healthy discussions because it makes you work through.

[Rachel Cruze]

Cause what.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know. Cause people assume things.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you don't wanna assume things.

[Rachel Cruze]

And what he just said a little bit of like. Well, she just said they don't need a big pile of money. Okay, well, they don't need a big pile of money from a life insurance policy because that's not the reason for life. But do they need a big pile of money from their dad who worked hard and has some. And then you just get, you know what I mean? Like, that's a different pile of money. And I don't know how to. I don't know. But that's a decision and discussions you guys have to have when it comes to your will and your estate and your assets.

[Dave Ramsey]

But that is hard.

[Rachel Cruze]

That's hard.

[Dave Ramsey]

But the reason it's important is if you can come into alignment on those kinds of things when there are no emotions or limited emotions, because we're not in the middle of grief, or we're not in the middle of a cancer diagnosis, or we're not in the middle of an argument after death with the ones left behind. Daddy always said he's going to give it to me, and now look at that gold digger. She took it all that kind of crap. Right? And that's exactly how it sounds 99% of the time if you don't work this stuff out ahead of time. So you need to work it out ahead of time because you guys coming into agreement on that is more important for your marriage and your relationship. Than it is actually about the distribution of the money.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. And the health of the family after.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, and everybody. And then everybody knows.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

She and I decided. You get nut and honey. That's what. Just like the cereal, you get nut and honey. That's the deal.

[Rachel Cruze]

What's that?

[Dave Ramsey]

It's a cereal. Cheerios, Honey.

[Rachel Cruze]

Nut.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cheerios, yeah. Nut and honey. Yeah. It's a thing.

[Rachel Cruze]

Probably in the early 80s.

[Dave Ramsey]

It might have been the 70s, I don't know. I have flashbacks these days. It's my age, so flashbacks from commercials from the 60s, but oh, my gosh. Anyway, that's what you get, Nut and honey. I mean, you tell them up front, everyone needs a will. And if you're gonna piss somebody off with a will, do it while you're alive. Don't leave it to the people left behind to do all the getting everybody getting pissed off thing. Go ahead and deal with it and do that. Have the backbone to implement it. Have a reading of the will while you're alive. It's highly uncomfortable. I call it the Monty Python meeting. Because I sit there and listen to what's going to happen when I die that I have planned out. And I'm going, it's just a flesh wound. I'm feeling much better. You know, I'm really not sick.

[Rachel Cruze]

And so, you know, when Dave dies meeting, that's like basically what's on our.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's what we call it when Dave dies meeting, you know, once a year. And everybody knows. That way there's no freaking confusion. And it's really healthy for everyone involved, but particularly the husband and the wife.

[Rachel Cruze]

Which means to do a will. We had our money and marriage event, Dr. John DeLoney and I, a few weeks ago, and we were walking through a financial checklist in one of the sessions. Talking through. I mean, it was kind of boring. I was like, free spirits. You got to stay with me. Because it's kind of the boring adult stuff. Um, but we talked about a will for a good bit of just what that looks like, what to do. And then afterwards, at the end of the whole weekend, we had people write what they're going to do with their marriage when they leave, you know, certain things they're going to implement. And we, you know, I was thinking, like, communication, you know, our thoughts about intimacy. Like all these big discussions we talk about. There were so many that said, we're making a will, which means they don't have one. So it's a reminder to all of you out there, make a will, Mama Bear. Legal forms is a great sign to.

[Dave Ramsey]

Get mama Bear to throw that in in the package when they come all the way over.

[Rachel Cruze]

I'm not kidding. The amount of people that were like, well, we're going to do a will.

[Dave Ramsey]

Do a will while you're sitting here.

[Rachel Cruze]

Like, you have to have a little workshop. So do a state specific. If your state's not complicated, you can do an online one. You can save the fees for all the attorneys and everything. If your net worth's over a million dollars, you need to do, you know, a more detailed one. But I'm telling you, do a will.

[Dave Ramsey]

When'd you do your will? At a marriage conference? Hey, guys. You know those too good to pass up holiday promos? Well, they can be great. But with every spin of the digital wheel, the newsletter sign up the coupon code, you're giving away your data. You think that info just stays with the store? I doubt it. It goes into the corners of cyberspace, where data brokers grab it, repackage it, and sell it to spammers, scammers, and generally bad people. The FTC just reported consumers lost over $12.5 billion to fraud last year.

[Caller]

And that's not just a number.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's your money, your time, and your privacy. And that's why I recommend Deleteme, your digital cleanup crew. The Deleteme privacy pros dig through hundreds of these data broker sites. They scrub your info, and they keep it gone. Which means fewer weird robocalls, fewer spam texts. And it's the gift that keeps on giving because it's an annual subscription. And Ramsey listeners can get 20% off those annual plans. @joindeleteme.com Ramsey with code Ramsey. And at checkout, do it today. That's joindeleteme.com Ramsey. Code Ramsey. Do you ever feel like you're doing everything right with your money, but you're still not getting anywhere? Well, you're not alone. Maybe you've made changes and had a few wins, but something still feels off. Not because you failed, but because money isn't just math. It's emotional. And that emotional fight can quietly sabotage your progress. That's exactly what Jade Washo's new book, what no one tells you about Money, is all about. It puts you in the driver's seat for your life. And the problem with money is people think it's just math, and it's not. It's all about the person in your mirror. And that includes emotions. It's a spiritual walk, an emotional walk, a relational walk. Jay deals with every bit of that and shows you how to win with it. It's the first Ramsey book that takes an honest, in depth look at the emotions, the emotional side of money. It gives you practical tools to finally make progress for good. We're gonna show you how to do that. Pre order right now for 24.99 and get over $100 in free bonus items including the enhanced audiobook it' early access to the ebook, instant access to an exclusive video, your financial checkup with Jade Warshaw and you can book exclusive three week online book club and live Q and a with Jade about the book as well. So pre order [e-mail] store or if you're watching on YouTube or podcast, click the link in the description. Jake is in North Dakota. Jake, what are you thankful for?

[Caller]

I'm thankful Christ died for my sins, Dave.

[Dave Ramsey]

Amen and amen.

[Caller]

Better gift than that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Never gets old. Never gets old. The greatest story ever told. How can we help today?

[Caller]

Amen. Well, I recently read your book Total Money Makeover. My wife and I have been kind of paying attention to your show for about a year now, and we've been able to merge our finances. We used to have separate accounts, but we've merged everything together. We've been paying down on our debt, but I would like to be more intense about it. And I, I don't know how to get her on board with that. I don't want to be forceful. It's not my will to be forceful about it with her, but I would like us to be more intense and get out of debt.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, so what does that, what does that mean practically? Do you feel like you could be. I mean, how much more money do you feel like you could be throwing at the debt per month that you guys are just spending quite a bit?

[Caller]

We've got, we've got two car payments that I would love to get rid of. I'd like to sell both vehicles. She's not on board with that. At least at this time. That wise, we have just under 300,000 in debt. Counting your mortgage, that's everything.

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. How much is that? Your mortgage? How much of that's your mortgage?

[Caller]

About 184.

[Dave Ramsey]

In a mortgage, you have $16,000 in debt? No, no, no, no, no. 116,000. Okay. I missed it. Okay. Yeah. 116.

[Caller]

Okay, that sounds about right. Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right.

[Caller]

And is that what, what is that the second mortgage?

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's your household, what's your household income?

[Caller]

About 160, 170 a year without Overtime.

[Dave Ramsey]

How long y' all been married?

[Caller]

Boy, since 2012. I got to think for a minute. 13 years.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, when did you guys just start this? You said you just read the book and you're starting this process. How long has it been?

[Caller]

We started this at about the end of March of this year.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's when you combine the finances.

[Caller]

Yes, sir. We've been talking about doing it for a number of years, but we just never pulled the trigger.

[Dave Ramsey]

What does she do?

[Caller]

She. She works for, kind of trying to find the words for it. She, they, they deal with like selling health insurance benefits to businesses. She's like a consultant doing that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, and what's her hesitation when she, when you said, I want to sell the cars and she doesn't. What's her reasoning behind that?

[Caller]

She just doesn't want to. She likes the car. And I don't, I don't blame her there. I mean, we bought both of them brand new in 2021. Yeah, but you know, she, she doesn't want to sell that and get into something unreliable. We live in the north where it's winters are harsh and we either one of us wants to be in something unreliable driving our kids around.

[Rachel Cruze]

But yeah, yeah. Out of the 116, how much are the cars? What are the car pay with the car loans?

[Caller]

The 25,000 owed on hers and 23 on mine.

[Dave Ramsey]

So half of its cars.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah. The other half, well, almost. And again, 49 is the second mortgage. We have about 18,000 in credit card debt, which is. We've been hemorrhaging money and paying down a lot of credit card debt.

[Dave Ramsey]

Have you cut up. Have you cut up your credit cards?

[Caller]

I have not cut that one up, but it is not.

[Dave Ramsey]

How often do you go out to eat?

[Caller]

We don't. We cook at home. We, we. I hunt and fish. So we provide as much of our food the natural way that we can.

[Rachel Cruze]

That's nice.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, you got a good place to do that.

[Rachel Cruze]

So ba. So do you. So again, this not selling cars would not be gazelle. Intense. I understand that. And then per month, how much could you. Where else could you be saving money? What else would you cut out that you would. If. If it was up to you? Where are you guys spending that you want to cut?

[Caller]

I guess we, we budget. We budget a little bit extra in the. Each month for just, you know, things. Pursuing our own interests, I guess.

[Dave Ramsey]

So this mainly comes down to the question of intensity or gazelle intensity mainly comes down to the car discussion. Is that what you're saying?

[Caller]

100%.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right, that's fair. All right, so here's what I would do. I would just sit and keep having the discussion.

[Rachel Cruze]

Sell your car, Jake.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. You can lead by selling yours and not hers.

[Caller]

And I'm looking into that right now.

[Dave Ramsey]

But tell her. But we are making this decision, not you. Okay? I'm willing to get rid of mine so that we can advance. And here's the thing. The reason that people don't cut up a credit card, the reason that people continue to go out to eat, the reason that people go on vacation is they don't think they're gonna win. If you think you're gonna win, you'll sacrifice to win. But if you sacrifice and don't win, no one wants to do that. That's psychotic. Okay, so selling your cars and then being broke for the next five years is not a good plan. That's weird. We're not asking you to do that. You're not asking to do that. But right now you're talking about selling the car instead of talking about the dream of what it's going to be like when we don't have a stinking payment except our mortgage and we can actually build some wealth and pay cash for whatever kind of car we want. We're going to live like no one else so that we can live and give like no one else. Talk about the second part. The two of you dream together in high definition of what life is going to look like when we finally get all this crap away from us and we're not normal anymore. Because normal sucks.

[Rachel Cruze]

And Jake, as much as you can. I think it's sometimes helpful because it sounds like she's probably more of the free spirit in the relationship. You're probably more of the. Of the nerd, would you say? That's right.

[Caller]

Very much.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, so use your, your nerd advantage and honestly make some, make some scenarios. I feel like that's always helpful. When people feel like that there's just like, this is the only thing. And like. And exactly what Dave was just saying, like, sell the cars. And then it's like, okay, well what's after that? Like, what, what, what are we doing? There's something about having a scenario. Scenario 1. Jake sells his car. We find an extra $800 a month in the budget, like whatever it is, like boom, boom, boom, boom. We're out of debt in X amount of time. Then we're gonna be able to save X amount per month to upgrade the car. And here's the reality, right? And then scenario Number two, if we both sell the car. Scenario three, if we don't sell either car and we just pay it off, here's how long we'll be in debt. Like, actually have some reality to it, because sometimes just the idea can just feel a little bit, like, nebulous or something. So if you can get some details down and you guys look at a couple of different options and different plans of how to get there, how to get to this goal of being debt free, it feels more realistic.

[Dave Ramsey]

Let me give you an example of what Rachel's saying. Let's pretend you didn't have a car. And you're calling me and saying, I want to take out a car payment. And I say, well, the Average car payment's 500. It's not anymore. It's a lot higher than 700. But if you. Okay. Somewhere in. Okay, so for 10 months, I want you to save $750. What is that? $7,500? Buy a $7,500 car for cash 10 months from now. 10 months later, you'll have $7,500. And a $7,500 car doesn't go down much in value. So you can sell it for $7,500. Put that with the new $7,500, you've got a $15,000 car. A scenario is that 20 months from now, you are driving a $15,000 paid for car instead of being saddled with a stupid butt car payment of $750. That's a scenario that shows you a way out. It's taking instead of, like, drive a hooptie that doesn't take me anywhere. I need something more than that. So where are we going with this thing? That's what Rachel's saying, and that's the way to handle it. Jake. And you're a good man. She's a good woman. This is gonna work out for you guys. It's gonna be o.

[Rachel Cruze]

Hey, y'. All. You know I'm all about keeping your budget in check, especially during the holidays. And that's why I always start my grocery shopping during the holidays at Aldi. From fresh produce to holiday favorites and charcuterie boards for parties, Aldi has it all. And at prices that will help your family save big. Up to $4,000 a year for a family of four. So do what I do for my family. Shop at Aldi first to save on groceries without sacrificing quality or holiday joy, find a store near you at Aldi US That's a l D. I dot.

[Dave Ramsey]

US Savings based On regional analysis of.

[Caller]

Aldi versus select competitors.

[Dave Ramsey]

Prices may vary by location, product availability and the market. Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds Credit Union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Happy Thanksgiving to you. Rachel Cruze, number one best selling author, host of the Rachel Cruze show, Ramsey personality. My daughter is my co host. Thanksgiving around Ramsay. We're pretty much a cheese factory around here. We like celebrating this stuff and we like Christmas and we like anything that makes the kiddos smile, which makes papa Dave smile and makes the mom and daddy smile and that's what turkey does. So we are a thankful family. We believe in gratitude, we believe in generosity. These are things that bring you great happiness. So when you call in today, your ticket of entry is going to be what you are thankful for. The phone number is 88882. Mike is with us in Tampa, Florida. Mike, what are you thankful for?

[Caller]

I'm thankful for my wife and the life we have here in Florida.

[Dave Ramsey]

Awesome. How can we help?

[Caller]

Yeah, Dave, my wife and I have been using every dollar for the last 10 years. We went to Financial Peace University and we've been debt free for five years. I'm at retirement age now and we have, we're a blended family with four adult kids and one of my adult children, a daughter eloped with her now husband to Florida, to Hawaii last year and just sent me a text and said that they're going to have a wedding, a destination wedding in Spain this summer. And traditionally it's the parents family's responsibilities to pay for that wedding or to contribute. And my wife and I discussed it. We don't agree with that. They will have been married over two years by the time this event takes place and we don't feel obligated to support, support that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

And just wanted to get your advice.

[Dave Ramsey]

I like it. Yeah, I mean it's your money. So where did this entitlement that she's entitled for this come from?

[Caller]

I think she was raised that way by my ex.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, was there discussion?

[Caller]

There's some of that attitude.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, was there any discussion, Mike, a year ago before they eloped that you guys were gonna plan a wedding and you were gonna help with it and then they were like, you know what, we don't, we just want to elope, you know, I mean like was there ever discussions, any expectations that was set at any point that you were gonna help or is this just like, okay, so that, that was never even talked about.

[Dave Ramsey]

Has another daughter gotten married and you paid for it and you said, well whatever we did for her. Will do for everyone.

[Caller]

Nope, nope. I didn't. I didn't. My other. My oldest daughter got married. Didn't ask for anything. We went to the wedding.

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, wow.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Caller]

But this is our. They. They waited a month to call us and even tell us they were married. And we went up as soon as we heard. We bought airline tickets, went to where they live. We went up for the weekend to celebrate their wedding, took them out to dinner, spent the weekend with them, and we felt like that that was the right thing to do.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, totally.

[Dave Ramsey]

And now she's.

[Rachel Cruze]

And in Spain.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wait a minute, Wait a minute. So, like, how long have you been divorced from her mom?

[Caller]

20 years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And she's how old?

[Caller]

33.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so she was 13.

[Caller]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And so a lot of times in that scenario, you end up rebuilding a relationship a decade after the divorce. Does that sound right? Huh?

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah. We had a call last Sunday and she pretty much unloaded that kind of stuff on me that goes back to when I remarried. So. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the reason I bring that up is the way you described. She didn't tell you she's married, so we're going to go visit. That kind of felt like olive branch stuff from someone you're not real close to.

[Caller]

Yeah, I'm not. Frankly, not close with any of my daughters.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

For. For pretty much the same reason.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Yeah. Because divorce is nasty. Yeah. And.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Okay, so then this request is not entitlement, it's a guilt trip.

[Caller]

Partially and partially. I think it is. And I think she does have what I call the princess complex.

[Dave Ramsey]

She.

[Caller]

She feels like she comes for money and I mean, she'd have to go.

[Dave Ramsey]

Find that source because you're apparently not it. Maybe you have. That doesn't mean it's hers. Yeah, yeah. I'm. You know. So here's the thing. Pick up a book by Dr. Henry Cloud called Boundaries, and you and your current wife read that because you need to be prepared. She does not respect boundaries. And when you set boundaries with a boundaryless person, they seldom react positively. In other words, there's not any version of no. She's going to be okay with. Right. And so I just want you to be prepared for that because there's some heartbreak that goes with that. So, I mean, you've been trying to reach out. You've been trying to reengage as her dad, as an adult dad, a dad of an adult daughter, and now she's coming in with this wild thing, and it's going to harm Whatever positive moves you've made, but that is also the proper, still the proper thing to do. But I just want you to know this is not going to be easy for you. It's going to hurt, right, because she's going to throw a fit and say, I'm never going to speak to you again, or something like that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, she's going to turn into the victim.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You've never been there for me and you're not there for me now, you know, and this kind of bull crap, right?

[Caller]

Yes, sir, exactly. That's exact conversation we had last week.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. So you've already told her. You already told her?

[Caller]

No, yes, I, she, she basically pushed it. So I called her to ask her, you know, why. Why this place? Why they felt like they needed to have another event after they were already married. It didn't make sense to me. And they, they both went and got master MBAs. And I don't think financially that they should be spending money on a destination. I think they've probably got some student debt. I don't know. I don't know their finances, but I would assume, I would assume that. And so, yeah, I just don't think they're making wise decisions. And I actually shared that. I thought maybe they could have made a different decision. She didn't like my answer.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

There's no form of no. But piling onto their financial decisions, it probably didn't help at all. But the. Anyway, I think I would just keep it very clean and very simple and just say, listen, my love for you and my desire to have a relationship with you guys going forward has nothing to do with money and it has nothing to do with how you handle your money and it has nothing to do with Spain. But I don't feel at this stage, the way our relationship is today, the way your life is built today, we don't feel good about this and so we're not willing to pay for this. I'm so sorry. I know you probably don't understand that and I'm prepared for you to not understand that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. And I almost would be. I would caution putting it on a condition on her. I wonder if it's a. Hey, we've talked and we've decided we're choosing not to spend this money.

[Dave Ramsey]

We're looking at the situation.

[Rachel Cruze]

My hope is that Mike, you know, that there is some reconciliation in the relationship, but again, this is going make it be a barrier to that, which is so sad. You know what?

[Dave Ramsey]

It was going, it was going so well until she started demanding that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Right, right.

[Caller]

So we, we like, we like the husband. We, we offered to come and support the event. We just don't. And we told her that, you know, we had put in our budget for all the travel and all to go, but that we just couldn't afford to also contribute.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm not gonna pay for it. I don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're wrong at all. I just want you to be prepared for the backlash. I'm sorry.

[Rachel Cruze]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Y', all.

[Rachel Cruze]

Open enrollment has a lot of people scrambling right now, but CHM lets you join anytime. So go to chministries.orgbudget to check them out. That's chministries.orgbudget.

[Dave Ramsey]

Countdown to Christmas is on. Do you believe it? Ton of great deals for Black Friday and Cyber Monday. Right now with us, special one day sales. And we're talking hardcover books, audiobooks, assessments, all stuff as low as $3.99. What? Yeah, check it out. Go to ramseysolutions.com store. Click the link in the description if you want. That might be the easiest way to get there. Thomas is with us in Austin, Texas. Thomas, what are you thankful for?

[Caller]

Hi, my wife and kids.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cool. How can we help?

[Caller]

Hey, so I'm on babysat three. I've been doing great falling off plan and recently I got approached by a family member about some financial advising. So we did a couple sessions but now they're trying to tell me that my term life policy is not great and I should be getting disability insurance and term 80 and it just all feels like more of a self ditch than financial advising and not as a family member. I don't know how to think about it. Am I crazy? And I just don't know how to approach that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so what you're telling me is, is that you smell stink?

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, then. In the conversation.

[Caller]

Absolutely. The sessions were great, but I don't.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't care what they're selling. Even if what they're selling is good. You always end the conversation around money when you smell stink. Because your smeller is better than anything out there. Trust your instincts is what I'm saying. Okay. I don't know what this product is. You haven't described it. I don't even know what the family member does. I don't know if they know what they were doing. Maybe they were changing oil at Jiffy Lube three weeks ago. Now they're a financial planner. That happens fairly often. Okay, I don't know any of that. But you smell stink, Thomas. And I trust your smell. Just end it based on that. Just say, listen, thank you for the help so far. We love you. We're just going to remain good family members and we're not going to move forward with any financial products with a family member at this time.

[Rachel Cruze]

Have you already put your money with them, Thomas?

[Caller]

No, not yet.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Don't.

[Caller]

Yeah, okay. Okay. So just stay with what I got. Stay the course.

[Dave Ramsey]

Don't argue about the products. Don't argue about family. Don't argue. No is a complete sentence. This is a very quick, calm, kind sentence. We've talked about it, my wife and I, and we've decided not to move forward with any financial problems at this time.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. And we just want to keep our money and our family members separate. And it just feels cleaner that way.

[Dave Ramsey]

And thank you.

[Rachel Cruze]

Thank you for what you've done, for offering all this. We appreciate it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Have a good night. Bye. Bye. It's like a. It's like a 15 or a 22nd thing here. We're not getting into a day long debate about this.

[Caller]

Okay?

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So what I want to do is give you. Give the power back to you.

[Rachel Cruze]

How close is the family member, Thomas? Is it a sibling? Is it a aunt or uncle?

[Caller]

It's a cousin.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's a cousin. Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cousin Eddie. Yeah. It's got stink on it. So listen, here's the thing. How long is this. How long's cousin been in the business? Financial business?

[Caller]

A couple months. They just graduated college this year.

And.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, I think you're good.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So you're smelling the right smell. Let me tell about the business, okay. From the outside in, just to give you some more power. I don't want you to share any of this with cousin. I just want you to have the knowledge base, okay? Because it will give you some strength. 80% of the people that start selling life insurance are out of the business in 12 months. Yeah. Here's what the life insurance business is based on. They hire your cousin so he can work what's called his natural market. That's what they call it. His natural market are people that he has influence with, not because of his financial ability, but because of his relationships. And so he calls his old friends from high school, his fraternity brothers from college, he calls his wife's friend on the soccer field, he calls all of his cousins, and he sits down. And once he's run through that list, he's out of prospects and he goes out of business because they don't furnish him any new leads. They use people to get to their relationships. That's their marketing model. It's called working the natural market. And that's why 80% of them, once they run through their natural list, they're out of the business. And that doesn't mean they're bad people. But your cousin is, quite frankly, being taken advantage of. You see what I'm saying? So if you put your money with them, you're not going to be working with him in a year. He won't be there anymore. 80% of the time. So he couldn't get a better job. This is the one he took, bless his heart.

[Rachel Cruze]

Or he fell for a sales pitch of how much money he can make.

[Dave Ramsey]

And, yeah, all the things and all that bull crap. So please walk away.

[Rachel Cruze]

And, and especially, I mean, and let me just give you this. Like, he just graduated college a few months. I'm like, he's just a kid. So, like, genuinely, if he was like, had been in the business for 30 years and he had a reputation, do.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know what I mean, though?

[Rachel Cruze]

And, like, I think it would be kind of a harder kind of slap in the face of like, dude, this is my job. I've been doing this for 30 years. And you know what I mean? If it's your old uncle and he's good at it, it'd be kind of like, oh, sorry, that's awkward. But he's like a 21 year old who just started this. So I'm like, yeah, you're good.

[Dave Ramsey]

He's selling knives next week and we don't want to buy the knives either. Thank you. Cutco.

[Rachel Cruze]

No, Cutco is great knives.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. But guess who sells them. Same exact model, which is great. Same, exact Model, you go sell your grandma, you go sell your aunt some knives, and then you're out of the business. And that's where you work, your natural markets, the exact same pots and pans thing. So it's an old marketing district distribution method. It's not wrong.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's not a, and it's not a.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, if you don't think the person's going to succeed once they finish working their list and you're only hiring them to access their list, that is wrong. Yes, that's ethically wrong. I, I, that's fair.

[Rachel Cruze]

That's fair.

[Dave Ramsey]

So, yeah, but the girl Scouts, you.

[Rachel Cruze]

Know, they go to the neighbors, they, I don't know.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, the girl Scouts are not making a career off of your money.

[Rachel Cruze]

That's fair. Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's, they're just making you fat with the thin men. We love the girl Scouts. We love you. And so, yeah, well, that's it, that's how the thing works now. So there's a good rule of thumb. What I'm trying to get you to do, everybody out here is trust your instincts, okay? I just love the proverb that says the simple sees danger and moves forward and is harmed for it. The wise senses danger and seeks refuge and becomes safe. And so when we go against this smell test, every one of us have that moment. We're in the middle of doing something stupid with money, and you have the opportunity to not do it. And you go, I knew better. I knew better. How many of you have done something dumb and you look back and you go right in the middle of it. I knew it, but I just was caught up in the moment. I was caught up and it was a family member and I just felt guilty and I felt trapped and bad. And you knew, though, that it was bad. And Thomas, I'm just telling you, man, trust the smell. And it doesn't mean your cousin's a bad dude. I'm not saying that. I'm not even sure these products are bad. I think they probably are. I think it's probably whole life bullcrap. But, but I'm not sure. I don't know who, what it is or what he's selling. Doesn't matter. The point is, you don't need to be doing business with him. And because the hair stood up on the back of your neck, rattlesnake in the bush, that's what happens. Your body has a physical reaction when you sense danger. And it's the lizard brain prompting you and going, don't do it. Smells bad. Skunk in the bush. Don't get over there. It's a simple thing, but we get all. All of us get all intellectual and sophisticated and rationalize our way past and.

[Rachel Cruze]

Want to be nice. That's another thing.

[Dave Ramsey]

And we want to be nice. And we just walk right past the stink right into the skunk.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yep. Yep. There's a book, the Gift of Fear. And it's a guy who was. Who used to do security, but he wrote this whole book, and mostly towards women, about. I mean, physical safety. But how many stories? It's like, oh, I got a bad feeling, but I still let him help me unload my groceries to my door. You know what I mean? Like, bad things happen. And it's like that whole. I mean, that's like his number one thing. And don't. Don't be afraid that, like, you know, you want to be a kind person, but sometimes it's like you don't. To be nice. It's okay. Like, it's real.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're better not nice than dead.

[Rachel Cruze]

The gut. The gut reaction is true. So, Thomas, whether it's this or something else, trust. Trust your instincts.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's God's spirit in you speaking up. It's saying, don't do it. Don't do it. And trauma's out. You notice how quickly I took you there, Thomas? I didn't even know what was going on. I was depending on that smell test.

[Caller]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. The holidays are full of traditions. Some of these traditions we love, some we just survive. And in addition to the traditions, let's be honest, this time of year can also be a time of noise and pressure and loneliness. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to ask yourself what really matters to you this year. And therapy can give you a space to do just that. To think, to breathe. To ask yourself, what do you want this year? And to make room for peace. That's why I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp has over 30,000 licensed therapists that have helped over 5 million people worldwide, with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 stars. BetterHelp is online, so it fits around your schedule even during the chaotic holiday times. You get online and just answer a few questions, and they'll match you with someone who fits your needs. And if your therapist is not the right fit, you can switch anytime for no extra cost.

[Rachel Cruze]

This month, start a new tradition by.

[Caller]

Taking care of you. Visit betterhelp.com Ramsey to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com Ramsey.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, tis the season. It's that time of year. In a few weeks we're going to be doing a special giving edition of the Ramsey Show. We want to hear stories from you about how generosity has impacted you. Maybe you've been the giver or the receiver. Maybe you've been in a had an incredible story that will inspire others to give by something that happened to you or through you. We want to hear about it. Go to ramseysolutions.com ask and put giving in the subject line. We do this every year at Christmas time and it is one of our most popular shows. It's going to be December 18th, so start sending in your stories now. Ramseysolutions.com/PUT giving in the storyline in the subject line and tell us a little bit about the story and we'll get in touch with you and make you part of our annual giving show. It's very inspiring. John is in Los Angeles. Hey John, how are you?

[Caller]

I'm doing well, Dave, pleasure to talk to you today.

[Dave Ramsey]

You too. How can we help?

[Caller]

So quick question for you, little advice. I have a feeling I know what you're gonna say, but I just need confirmation. I guess so. Father of six, been married for 15 years. Income around just north of 200. We have zero consumer debt. I have a outstanding mortgage balance of about 220 with a mortgage rate of about 2.875. I've come into a sum of money which is about 200. And so what I want to do, what I think I know I should do, is just pay off the house and move on with my life. But that's easier said than done when you're sitting in the driver's seat and you got that interest rate.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, there's several, there's several layers to the answer. Okay, I'll give you a couple of the layers, a couple of the lenses through which you can look at this that reinforce the answer. Number one, we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America. Ramsey Research Team 10,167 of them. The number of them out of 10,000 millionaires, 89% of them were first generation rich, meaning they were not inherited money. Nine out of ten of America's millionaires are first generation rich. Okay. Then we start asking, okay, how did you get there? What technique did you use? Where'd your money come from? Did you win the lottery? The number of them. That said I had a good interest rate on my mortgage, so I didn't pay it off and I invested the difference and that made me a millionaire. The number of them that said that is precisely zero.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So this idea that you use borrowed money on your house to become wealthy is mythology. It's not true. It doesn't happen in the real world. So your theory is bull crap is what I'm saying. It's not your theory. It's a theory that floats all through our culture.

[Caller]

Yeah, but you can just understand how that.

[Dave Ramsey]

I can understand it. But I'm telling you what. I understand how you got there, but I'm telling you what the data says. Okay? So that's one way of looking at it. The second way of looking at it is through a spiritual lens. The borrower is slave to the lender. And people react to their careers differently and their generosity differently when they don't have a house payment.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Regardless of the interest rate. And so they tend to maximize their careers because they're not trapped and they don't feel like they have to put up with some unethical or inefficient or crummy job because I got this stupid house payment even though the interest rate's great.

[Rachel Cruze]

And John, out of all the people we've talked to throughout the years, whether it's at events on the show and people that have paid off their house and we ask them, do you regret it? Do you hate having a paid off house? Precisely zero. Nobody, nobody regrets it. And even if you do regret it, you can go.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you want a mortgage. If you want to Google Dave Ramsey. If you want to Google Dave Ramsey sucks. You'll see a lot of reasons that I suck.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

But never, never one time will you see that. Dave told me to pay off my house and I hate him. There's not one. They'll tell you I suck for a lot of other reasons that I'm awful.

[Caller]

I don't think you suck.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know, but I'm just saying. It's just of all the trolling and all the critics we get, they're all people that haven't paid off their houses. But we don't get people that paid off their house because I told them to that are mad at me. None, zero, nada. So do it. Pay it off and enjoy your great life, dude. And if you hate being debt free, go get you a new mortgage later. You know, you can always go back in debt. I promise you they'll put your butt there if you want to be there. Tyler is in Atlanta. Hey, Tyler, what's up?

[Caller]

Hey, Dave, how are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better. Than I deserve. What are you thankful for today?

[Caller]

Just another grateful day on earth. That's. That's all you can wish for.

[Dave Ramsey]

Amen. How can we help?

[Caller]

So me and my wife, we got married in May. We were actually. We got married at the courthouse, but we're having a wedding in March of next year. So not a lot of people know that we're married and we live in Atlanta now and we're gonna move back home down south. We have a couple thousand saved up in the bank. My wife wants to buy a house immediately when we move, but I want to live with my parents or her parents for a couple months and save up even more for a bigger down payment so we don't have more of a payment on a house and be able to save for.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are you guys?

[Caller]

I am 24. She is 26.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now. What's your household income, sir?

[Caller]

Eight grand a month.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. There's nothing evil about any of the choices that you put in front of me. There's only things that are smarter. One thing smarter than another thing. That's the only question. Okay, so in other words, if you do any of these things, you're probably not going to ruin your life. You follow me? So if you move in with your parents, probably not going to kill you for a little while. If you go buy a house, probably not going to kill you. My answer is I wouldn't do either one of those things. I'd go rent a one bedroom apartment for a year as cheap as I possibly could over the garage of a rich old lady's house and mow her grass for half the rent and pile up as much cash as you can pile. And don't be living with your mommy.

[Caller]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I'll pile up as much cash as I could pile up and learn the neighborhood and learn the area. Because it takes a year of being married to know how far from your mother in law you should buy.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah, they're great people, so. They're great people, so.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm talking about your wife. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

Tyler, be newlyweds and not go share a kitchen with your parents. Like just.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you make eight grand a month. You're killing it.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, just go, y' all go rent somewhere for a year and you're going.

[Dave Ramsey]

To a small town. I got a feeling.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah. And we're in the.

[Dave Ramsey]

Whose town is it, yours or hers?

[Caller]

It's actually both of ours. We both, we both grew up there. Both of our parents are there.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

We're in.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you know the town.

[Rachel Cruze]

Are you Tyler, are you guys debt free consumer debt wise, or y' all have payments?

[Caller]

So we have a little bit of debt probably all together, it's probably 10 grand, but we have 70 in the savings.

[Rachel Cruze]

70,000?

[Caller]

Yes, 70,000 savings.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, well, okay.

[Caller]

We are. Six grand is for our honeymoon. And then we have some other.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, okay. Pay that off tonight, honey.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not a pet. Get rid of it.

[Caller]

Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. It's not. It's not the case.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. And then you guys figure out, you know, your emergency fund, which is going to be part of the 70, and then beyond that, what you want to save in a year for a down payment because you guys are getting. Get close. And with a small town, hopefully housing prices, you know, it's not like the Bay Area, so hopefully you can get into something and y' all would be great.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And I can modify it a little bit since I found out both of you are from there. And it's a small geographical area. You already know the town, so I don't have to give you a whole year, but at least six months. Just go rent something for six months, get settled in, become married people. Everybody knows you're married. It's a March thing happens, all that stuff. And then you start looking for a house. And by then you could have saved up a little bit more money.

[Rachel Cruze]

And that's quick. That time is fast.

[Dave Ramsey]

You guys are gonna be fine. Gonna be fine. Just. Yeah, it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. You're doing good. Sylvia is in Seattle. Hey, Sylvia, what are you thankful for?

[Caller]

Well, Dave, this is a hard Thanksgiving. My sister died a few months ago.

[Rachel Cruze]

Sorry.

[Caller]

The holidays are difficult to say the least. But I do have things to be thankful for. And so I'm trying. She would want me to live and not, you know, just survive. So that's what I'm trying to do. And good for you. And so thank you for asking.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's a healthy outlook.

[Caller]

So, yeah, people need to realize. I'm a registered nurse, and so people need to understand how important their health is. Dave, real quick. I'm a registered nurse. I'm 66. I retire in June. 40 years, emergency and pandemic and such. I was raised. I'm the youngest of seven, army brat and was raised by parents in the depression. Telling us to pay yourself first. Know the difference between wants and needs and to save. And so that's what I've been doing. Currently I have a home I just bought a year ago after losing one in the recession in 08. Took me a while to build back up, but I bought a year ago. That's my only debt. That mortgage is 3,400amonth. I have an emergency fund of about 130,000. I have investments of about 1.2 million. I'm getting, I'll get 3,500 in Social Security and 2,000 in a pension. My question to you, which is different from most, is my whole life, my father's voice is in my ear, to save, save, safe. My financial counselor now tells me, enid, it's time to, to rent or to start spending. So I don't know how, because in my head it's like, keep saving, keep saving. And so I wondered if you could help me or give me some advice as how I flip that switch and start to live. Because my sister would want me one detail.

[Dave Ramsey]

What is the balance on your mortgage?

[Caller]

500.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, okay. All right. To your question then. There are only three things that we can do with money. We can, we can save it and invest it, which you have done with glory. You're a millionaire. Way to go. Congratulations. By the way. What's the home worth?

[Caller]

About 850.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

Okay. All right.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you're worth about 100. You're worth about $1.5 million. Is your net worth. Okay. And the. So that's absolutely incredible. You're a millionaire nurse at 66 years old. And you're obviously with the language you're using, single. Were you ever married?

[Caller]

I was part of that whole early on in my 40s, I, we got divorced and he had debt that I had to pay off.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you know, that also left a mark. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense again, there's three things that we can do. So Rachel and I wrote a book years ago, was her first number one best seller called Smart Money, Smart Kids on teaching children how to handle money. And we taught children that there are three things that they can do with money. And parents job is to teach them to do all three things. To give, to save and to spend wisely. Okay. And to teach them to work, which is where money comes from, to do all three of those things. Okay. So that's the lessons we teach kids as adults. There's only three things we can do with money. We can give it, we can save it, and we can enjoy it or spend it, which is what your counselor is saying. Now we don't want to ever do just one because it's not a well rounded life. And that's what your counselor is saying. You've become an expert saver. Your savings Muscle is really big. You have big muscles on the saving side. Your spending muscle is puny. Your giving muscle is probably underdeveloped. Am I right? Not accusing you of being greedy. I'm just saying you don't give a lot of money.

[Caller]

I, you know, give to give to my church what I have done. I don't have children and my will.

[Dave Ramsey]

I finish my talking about your monthly giving in your budget.

[Caller]

Yeah. So it's my. Other than to my church, what have you. Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's 50 bucks or 100 bucks or something.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Okay. That's what I'm saying. So. And you're a millionaire, almost a multimillionaire. So I want you to increase your giving. I don't care to what. And I want you to increase your spending. Now, I don't want you to be irresponsible. If your 1.2 million is invested in mutual funds, it should be producing about $10,000 a month in income. You don't need that much income.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much income do you. You're gonna have 3,500 already coming in.

[Rachel Cruze]

2,000 with a pension and two.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so you're gonna be a 5,500 coming in. Can you live on that comfortably?

[Caller]

I'm living on that now, so.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

You know.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, good. I mean, do you want to live on that or do you want to spend more than that?

[Caller]

I mean, both my sisters, you know, as I told you recently past, we're going to do some things once I retired they already had. Now they're gone. You know, I guess I'll, you know, I don't know what I'm. I've got to start thinking about what I'm going to do when I retire as a nurse.

[Dave Ramsey]

Travel.

[Caller]

You know, I don't. Right. I don't want to travel by myself, but, yes, I can travel.

Okay.

Yeah. I got to start thinking about this stuff. And yes, I will be giving away my money. My sister did.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't mean. I'm not saying. All I'm saying is that I want you. Instead of giving 100 bucks away a month, why don't you give away a thousand a month?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And just find somebody that needs some groceries, you know, and just because there's great joy in that. And then I want you to look up and I want you to say, I'm making $10,000 a month on my investments above what I need to live. What does that look like on spending. What are we going to spend that. Some of that on? I don't want you to spend it all. But here's the point. If you spend $15,000 a month for the rest of your life, including your pension income and your investment income, you will die with $1.2 million. You're okay. You did it.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And if you get that math in your head, then it gives you permission not to be crazy. I don't want you to go spend 300,000 on a car. That's not what I'm saying. Okay. But I am saying 15,000amonth is way more than you ever thought about spending. That blows your mind just saying that, doesn't it?

[Caller]

Yes, it does. I can't imagine.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, and I don't think you're going to do that. The chances of you overspending are zero.

[Rachel Cruze]

Now, what about this mortgage?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I'm worried about this mortgage. I want this mortgage to go away. That becomes the second part of the goal is we need to clear this debt because it's the most destabilizing thing in your life right now. It's a big mortgage. And I don't really feel good about taking 500,000 out of your 1.2 and paying it off today. But I'm going to start working out of that 15,000amonth and work that mortgage down too.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because I'd like you to have no mortgage. I want you to build up your generosity muscle and your spending muscle up to. And your debt reduction muscle those three things up to 15,000amonth. Once you start drawing down on the 1.2. So you sit down with your financial advisor and you start drawing the income off of the 1.2 to go with your pension and go with your other stuff and you throw it in a checking account.

[Rachel Cruze]

Any part of you would just take like 200 of it and just kind of make a dent.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'd like to get the mortgage down a ways and then just knock it off.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't want to make a front end dent. I'd make a back end dent, probably. I. I just. She's. Yeah, we've first got to get her enjoying the money a little bit. Yes, it's time for sure. So I think you got a good person in your corner, whoever that is counseling you. I like their advice. Good question. Sylvia. The chances of you overspending are almost zero. No chance. We could get you in Congress. Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds Credit Union Studios. It's Thanksgiving eve here at Ramsey, so we are asking you what you're thankful for. And there's always Something to be thankful for and stopping. And as the old saying says, count your blessings is not a bad idea. By the way, it's your entry to the show today. If you want to get on, we're going to ask you what you're thankful for. That's how it works. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Rachel Cruz Ramsey, personality number one best selling author. My daughter is my co host today. Noah is with us in Cincinnati. Hi, Noah. What are you thankful for?

[Caller]

Oh, gosh, too much. My family and friends and everything in between. How are you guys?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than we deserve. Sir, how can we help today?

[Caller]

Well, I have been wondering for, gosh, a year or two now if I should buy a new car. My wife has a nice car. It's probably worth about 20 grand. It's kind of the family car. I drive a van for work and I drive when I need to. I have about a $2,000 car and there's nothing wrong with it and I drive it all the time. And I guess I'm, I've just, I haven't bought a new car because it feels kind of frivolous because I don't need it. And I've been looking at them for, for so long and I just am not sure if I should do it.

[Rachel Cruze]

How much money do you have, Noah?

[Caller]

Well, I know what you're gonna say. You're gonna laugh at me. I've got probably about 540,000 between investments and a brokerage account.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Why would I laugh at you? That's great. Well done.

[Caller]

Yeah, I just, I guess because I'm just so hung up on buying a car. So we're gonna have.

[Dave Ramsey]

Do you have any debt?

[Caller]

Yeah, no, just a house.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. What do you owe on your house?

[Caller]

About 200.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. I'd buy a $10,000 car and pay off your house.

[Caller]

I thought you might say that. How about a $30,000 car?

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't care. You got the money.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't, I don't know why you, why you want to go from a 300 to 30,000, but if you want to, I don't care. Yeah. And what's your household income, sir?

[Caller]

About 175.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And so the two cars together would be about 50 and that's way less than half your annual income. And yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. That fits. Pay cash for it and pay off your house. And so, yeah, you're not doing anything wrong. But I would move up in car just from a reliability standpoint. And, you know, it's just they don't make them like they used to. Thank God. New cars. And the newer models are a lot nicer. I mean, I've got a 1960 Corvette rebuilt and, you know, and I've got a fairly new Corvette, and the new one's a lot better, you know, so, yeah, I'd move up a little bit, you know, and the other one's kind of a cool antique. I mean, but it's not, you know, it's.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, the other one's a better ride. He'll. Yeah, yeah. Enjoy it, Noah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, enjoy it. You're doing a good job.

[Rachel Cruze]

Have some fun. This whole time, I'm laughing at you.

[Dave Ramsey]

But it's just, you know, we're gonna give you permission to have lived like no one else. So that somehow making 100 and what was $175,000 a year, you amassed 550,000. Now, let's do something smart with it.

[Rachel Cruze]

Now, if you said 5 million, I probably would have laughed, but I won't laugh at half a million, Noah.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not the laugh level. The laugh level has seven figures.

[Rachel Cruze]

But you can afford it, Noah, so do it. Enjoy your V hard. You've done a great job.

[Dave Ramsey]

Saul's in Boston. Hey, Saul, what's up?

[Caller]

Hi, there.

I'm very good.

I'm so excited to be on the phone with you guys.

[Dave Ramsey]

You too. What's up? Oh, by the way, what are you thankful for?

[Caller]

Oh, I'm thankful for my friends. Yeah, definitely. I have a great group of friends that I'm super thankful for.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, I love that. Very good. How can we help today?

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah. So My husband is 25. I'm 26 years old, no children. Our household income is 110,000, doll. We are currently living on my income and saving his income, which is 4,000amonth. Next year, we're planning to start a long journey of savings to buy our first home cash. We made our minds that we don't want to owe a penny to anyone ever. And our goal is to save $500,000. We live in Massachusetts, so the real estate here is very expensive. We concluded that we will achieve that in a max of seven years, as long as I leave my current job. I have a master's degree, and I'm currently working with a career coach to get a higher salary. Additionally, while saving for the house, we're thinking of maxing out both of our Roth IRAs every year so that we don't fall behind in our retirement goals and then save more Aggressively afterwards. But the reason why I'm calling it one of the biggest arguments in this journey is a house that is worth 500,000 now could very much be worth like 900,000 in seven years. So I just would love to hear your expertise and perspective on that. And do you have any recommendations on how to invest those savings so that they can grow between now and then?

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, the savings, if you're going to leave it alone three years or more, we would move a bunch of it towards something like an index fund into a good mutual fund like an s and P500 so that it's growing a lot faster than a high yield savings account. But if it's three years or under, I'm going to and a portion of it. Either way I'm going to leave in high yield savings so that you're earning some. But really the interest rate or the return on your money is not going to get you the house. It's your savings rate, the amount you put in that gets you the house. So if you make 3% or you make 10%, it's not gonna be that big a difference in a short period of time, like three to five years before you get a house. The second thing is that life never works on a straight line. And what you've done is you have taken the current life that you have the snapshot of today, freeze frame, and you projected that out and life doesn't work that way. Okay, 100% of the time, five years from today, your income is going to be different than it is today. Usually it's going to be more.

[Caller]

Yeah, okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And we don't know what exactly, but typically on a career track like you guys are on at your age, your income is going to hockey stick. It's going to go on a curve upward and that's going to impact the five to seven year and probably turn it into a three to a four year. And that changes the discussion on how much houses will have gone up in value. I don't borrow money for anything ever. So it doesn't matter to me what they go up. I simply cannot buy until I have the money. Now with one thing on this show that we. There's only one thing on this show that we that I don't do personally that I tell other people they can do. And that's take out a small mortgage on a 15 year fixed and pay it off as soon as possible. I won't do that, but I don't yell at you for that one thing. I don't borrow on Anything else and I will yell at you for borrowing on other things because it's dumb. Okay, but if you, if you saved up half of this money and you bought in two years, that would truncate even more of the weight and the increase in value during that time.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, yeah, I think it's a good plan. So. But I would be, yes, I would still be investing 15 even if that's more than maxing out the Roths during this plan. I would be saving in retirement.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I think you got too long. If you're gonna be more than three years, you need to be maxing. You need to be putting your 15% baby step four aside. Do you want to keep more money in your pocket and not Uncle Sam's? Then listen up. There are tax deductions and credits you could maximize before the end of the year by connecting with an experienced tax professional like a Ramsey trusted tax pro. They know the tax code inside and out so you don't have to and they can help you file when tax season rolls around. Get a trusted tax pro by to ramseysolutions.com taxpro ramseysolutions.com taxpro. Our question of the day is brought to you by why Refi Defaulted Private student loans don't define you and they don't have control of your future. Why Refi helps you start fresh with low fixed rate refinancing made for real people. Go to y refi.com Ramsey that's the letter y r e f y.com Ramsey not in all states.

[Rachel Cruze]

Today's question comes from Vince in North Dakota. I have followed your principles for years and do not believe in debt, personally or in business. My career has been doing H Vac and plumbing for an employer who has always pushed financing. I recently opened my own business and I don't want to add to the slavery of debt, but I also don't want to lose out on jobs because I refuse to play that game. We charge a fair rate, but I know that I'm running that. I'm running the numbers myself and I see how expensive it is to grow a real business. How do I compete in this industry without resorting to pushing debt on my customers?

[Dave Ramsey]

There's plenty of heat in there. Guys that run huge businesses without being pushing debt. Some of them just let their, you know, the financing, the customer get their own financing. A lot of people put it on a credit card or they run over at the bank and borrow the money. But the the heat and air company doesn't have to furnish the financing to Be successful. You know, now if you're going to work a, you know, a lower end market, you're probably going to struggle because the people you're competing against there are probably signing up the thing and you know, for instance, on the car lot, okay. The car dealers today on new cars make more money profit per car on the financing package than they do on the sale of the car. And that could be true of some heat and air companies that are pushing financing hard, that they're selling the paper and, or they're getting paid a kick from the finance company for pushing the paper and they're making as much on that as they are on the actual heat and air unit. But that's not normal in the industry. You know, your father in law is in the heat and air business. Yeah. And your brother in law with him. And they don't push financing and they make a really good living. And we know a bunch of other people in the business over the years and so. But I do know some people that are, quote, more retail. And you can kind of tell by their advertising, when you hear their ads or you see their ads, you, you kind of can tell, oh, they're going to want me to finance this because they're going to charge a lot, you know, and so, you know, I think you provide a fair rate. Some customers are going to finance and I would not do business with them because they chose to go pay for it the way they wanted to pay for it. That's not your, that's not your obligation. Yeah, yeah, but in terms of, you know, you're in the heat and air business, you're not in the banking business. As long as you stay there, you're.

[Rachel Cruze]

Going to be and know that the product you, you're selling is expensive, Vince. I mean like, that's one of the biggest expenses. So you can't be shocked if people don't have the cash because 40% of Americans can't even cover a $400 emergency. So you are in an industry that's expensive. So it's. Yeah, you shouldn't be shocked if they, if a lot of people use it. You know, I think the difference is.

[Dave Ramsey]

Where you get the icky factor in the heat and air world is where they think they're in the banking business, where they're peddling it hard. And your old employer was one of those. Yeah, that's where you get the ick factor. Okay. So if it's somewhere around your business or in your business. So for instance, I talked to a guy the other day he's in the. He owns two pizza locations. He makes pizzas restaurants. And he said, am I doing something wrong by taking credit cards for the pizza? And I'm like, good lord, no. You know, you're. It's not. Now would Dave ran. Would Ramsey Solutions be doing something wrong to take credit cards? Yeah, because we're telling people actively, like our brand is telling people not to have a credit card. Okay, so if you came into our bookstore and used a credit card and we let you do that, that would be hypocritical on our part because it's straight up unethical. Based on our advice. It's hypocritical. But now when you're in the pizza business, I'm in the get out of debt business. I'm not in the pizza. You're in the pizza business if you take credit cards at your pizza restaurant, it's the same machine you use a debit card on. And so either way, you're going to be paying your merchant fees on both of them and lowers your profits.

[Rachel Cruze]

It'd be weird if you were a diet company, but then you were selling ice cream as they're walking out the door. That feels hypocritical. So, I mean, it's. But that's not your industry. So.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you have a health food store and, you know, but you sell Snickers, you know, I mean, that's a problem. You know, I mean, but that's the thing you're looking for on the ethics side of things. So I would have it available or have a look, you know, hey, the bank, this, this credit union over here. Finances for some people. And you can call George over there and Henry over there. They'll do it. You know, I'd have that available if I were you, but I wouldn't be peddling it. That's the difference. You know, I'd say this is how some people do it. They put it on a credit card. Some people do this, some people, I fix it and just get it to where it limps along so they can save up the money. And then I come back next year and put in the new unit. And sometimes we do that with people. And those people are going to remember you as the person who helped them with their heating and air, not who got them into debt. And so that, that's, you know, you're fine. I think just remember what business you're in. That's what screws up. I mean, like Victoria's Secret. Forgot they were in the small underwear business. What? They make more money on their credit card lines than they do on the small underwear. Okay. And so the girls that work in Victoria's Secret, if you don't sell a certain number of credit cards per shift, regardless of how much small underwear you sell, you don't get to keep your job because they got in the credit card.

[Rachel Cruze]

It used to be like that. I don't know how it is now. Well, I mean, but that used to be a big.

[Dave Ramsey]

That was a big deal.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes, I remember.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so there's all these companies that got confused. Sears got in that business and then they went bankrupt. Pennies got in that business and then they went bankrupt. And so you just see this stuff. They get confused about what business they're in. Be in the business you're in and if there's financing around it. So what? Unless you're teaching people like we are not to go into debt. And then that would be the, you know, the diet place selling ice cream, as Rachel said. That's true. All right, up next is going to be Dave in San Antonio. Hey, Dave, what's up?

[Caller]

Hey. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

[Caller]

Well, I am currently living in South Texas. We, my family and I have a wife, three, two. Well, was two now, three kids, looking after my nephew. We would like to move to Nashville and I want to do that as soon as financially feasible. I have two jobs at the moment. I was active duty marine Corps for 14 years. I still do that as a reservist. That you want net or gross figures typically a month.

[Dave Ramsey]

Gross, Gross.

[Caller]

The military is grossing me about where to go. Sorry, I get back to you in a second. It's around a five grand or so. And then I also fly for an airline, which would make it very convenient for me to be your neighbor in Franklin. That's grossing me about just under 21amonth. Oh, I'm sorry. There it is. They're military about 4400 and airline about 21,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so why, why do you need. What do you need? What are you waiting on to move if you want to move?

[Caller]

Well, unfortunately that the military thing that I do down in South Texas is very convenient because I. Oh, I thought.

[Dave Ramsey]

It was military retirement. I'm sorry. Okay, so. No, no, no, it's actually, it's like actually a side hustle. Okay. So you go from 25,000 to $21,000 income if you moved without the military thing.

[Caller]

Yeah, roughly. But it also makes the 20 year retirement for the military a lot harder to get because you know, a full schedule for me flying for the airline is working about 12 days a month, which is great. I have great flexibility. I can pick up extra. I also have to fly on base about five days a month now. That's easy. Take the kids to school, go fly on base and then I'm done by like two. So that part's simple. If I were in Nashville trail, that's two legs on a plane.

[Dave Ramsey]

So why would you want to move to Nashville?

[Caller]

Variety. We can't. South Texas is not a place we want to be for the next 30 years. We're in our early 40s and we'd like to.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much longer do you have to do the military gig?

[Caller]

2 and a half years.

[Dave Ramsey]

We'll do that and then move.

[Caller]

That's kind of what we're thinking. And a bigger question that and I've heard you have different had opinions on as far as building or buying up in the Tennessee within.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'd probably just buy. You got enough going on without getting in the building business. Building a house is a lot of work for the consumer. Foreign.

[Rachel Cruze]

You guys, Cyber Monday is here and for today only, we're bringing you the lowest prices of the year on some of your favorite products. Seriously. We're talking deals as low as 3.99. Best selling hardcovers are just $10. Questions for humans. Cards are marked down as well. Plus we've got deals on Rachel Cruze wallets and more. Don't wait. Grab these deals while you can. Go to ramseysolutions.com store today.

[Dave Ramsey]

The all new every dollar is here and now. It's way more than just our world class budgeting app. Ton of advanced features to lead you through the baby steps. Teach you the Ramsey way while you're simply doing the budget. So it's pretty much like taking you through financial peace University in the app. It's pretty cool. We're going to teach you everything you need to do while you're doing this. The average person finds thousands of dollars in margin in just the first 15 minutes. Start every dollar for free today. Get it in the app store or on Google Play. It's the eve of Thanksgiving. What are you thankful for? Jenny in Savannah.

[Caller]

Yes. Hi. Yay. So excited to connect with y'. All.

[Dave Ramsey]

You too. What are you thankful for today? Thankful?

[Caller]

Yes. Very thankful for my family, my two daughters and my health.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cool. Good for you. How can we help?

[Caller]

Okay, So I am 54 years old. I have $75,000 in legal fees, about 12,12,000 and credit card. I have two car payments that total about 28,000. I make about $86,000 a year. I'm paying rent for $2,300 a month. The reason why I'm in such horrible financial is because I went through a divorce in 2016 and my ex husband is an attorney and so like every time I wanted to try to get child support I had to go back to court. So it's been going on for 10 years.

So my question is, how old are the kids now?

Sure. Okay, so I have one's a senior in high school and then the other one's a junior in high school. So my question is I have them on scholarships at a private school. I have a 90 year old father who has, you know, asked us to move back in with him to help me, you know, pay off all my debt. But that would put my kids about 30 minutes away from their school. And it's kind of a very rural town he loves. And so I'm wondering, you know, should I stick it out for another year for, until you know, my younger one finishes high school and then move in or should I just try to move in now just because it's my, my rent is really high. It's $2,300 a month.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. For Savannah, Georgia. That's really high.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So, okay, so you're kind of looking at your numbers. It's, you don't have a lot of margin, so you're kind of spinning your wheels, making huge progress because of all these different you high rent, you've got all these debts looming over you and so forth. What are the boys plans as they come out of school?

[Caller]

Yeah, two daughters and they.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sorry, I don't know why I thought they were sons. I apologize.

[Caller]

No, that's okay. No, so, okay, so I have, my oldest daughter just got into Georgia. Well, she wants to go to Northwestern. She applied early decision for Northwestern, but she got into University of Georgia and the honors program. So she would qualify for the Zell Miller scholarship and the Hope scholarship would be practically free. The younger one, you know, they both definitely are settled on college, but the in state tuition for Georgia is absolutely amazing. But my ex husband is, he lives in Chicago and he's, you know, just kind of, kind of a bug in their ear and I'm going to be responsible for half of their two hours.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, we're not going to Northwestern. You don't have the money to syndicate to Northwestern.

[Caller]

Mm, sorry.

Yeah, I agree. I've been trying to talk her.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't have to talk her out of it. The answer is no. I'm a broke single mom. If your freaking father wants to pay for this, we'll talk about it, but he ain't paying for nothing.

[Caller]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you're going to Georgia, kid. Now you can couch that a little nicer if you want, but that's the bottom line. Measure.

[Rachel Cruze]

Go dogs.

[Dave Ramsey]

They're playing football. I mean, it's lifestyle fan, but that's.

[Rachel Cruze]

What I want for her. Which hurts my heart a little, but.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, in state tuition. I mean, I mean, I'll never Forget Rachel having two people come off the stage and there were $200,000, both of them in debt, getting married and saying they wanted to be missionaries. At Northwestern you were talking.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's not the well known Northwestern. It was one outside of Minneapolis.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, excuse me. Okay, I think Northwestern, but it was. They both come off the stage making 200 grand, getting married. They got 400 grand in debt and sociology and they want to be missionaries. So. No, she's not going to some Northwestern. She can't afford it. Yeah, her mother's broke.

[Caller]

Well, she says, I don't care. I'll take out all the 100.

[Dave Ramsey]

I care. I care. I am not. I am not participating in this. I'm your mother. This is your destruction. No, this is stupid.

[Caller]

I 1000% agree.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's 100% stupid. Not even 99. It's a hundred percent stupid.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. So should Jenny move back home?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, no, I mean, I, you know, whether you move now, when do you want to start making progress? And.

[Caller]

Well, I'm up every night about, like just sweating over all the, the debt. I have half and you know, I've been working three jobs. I'm.

[Rachel Cruze]

What are the car loans, Jenny? Whose are they? You said we had two different ones.

[Caller]

Yeah. So those are two. Those are both ours. Like we have three drivers and we had one car. And then I was. Whatever you said earlier about the, the car lane, I went in there with $5,000 and somehow got sucked into financing it. So I have two. Yeah, we have two cars.

[Dave Ramsey]

What are the two car loans? Break them down.

[Caller]

There's an $18,000 for Hyundai Kona, which is probably worth way less than that. And then there's a. There's about a. Let's see. I think it's about $10,000 for a Hyundai Santa Fe. That's got 125,000 miles on it.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's. That's, that's the one. You got one of them.

[Rachel Cruze]

The. Is one of them the girls?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. The second one is the girl.

[Rachel Cruze]

Is dad helping at all?

[Dave Ramsey]

No.

[Caller]

No.

I don't get any child support. I don't get anything. He got the marital home. He's an attorney. So he really. He really knew what he was doing by he would just file frivolous lawsuit.

[Dave Ramsey]

Here's the thing. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

It scares me that you did a bad car deal for your daughter. That you're gonna do a bad college deal for your daughter. Please. Remember the car deal when you couldn't look at her and say no. This time you've got to say no. You're gonna bankrupt your kid. She's gonna spend the next 15 years of her life pissed off at you because you don't stand your ground and not let her go to a college she cannot afford.

[Rachel Cruze]

And Georgia's a great school.

[Dave Ramsey]

Georgia's fabulous.

[Caller]

And Georgia Tech too because she's applied to there as well.

[Dave Ramsey]

These are both world class academic institutions. I don't care if they're in state tuition or not. They really are. They're incredible. I would hire her. I would hire her to work at Ramsey in a heartbeat. More graduating from there debt free than graduating from Northwestern with 200,000. Cuz she's stupid. I don't want to hire that. Okay. As an employer. I'm serious. We look at somebody.

[Rachel Cruze]

She's not stupid. She's making stupid decisions.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's just dumb. Okay. Don't do it. I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to leave this call unclear. Clear. Yeah. Okay. So now then this. Yeah. If you want to go ahead and move to dad. The deal is you just got to drive 30 minutes. Is that right?

[Caller]

Yeah. It'll be 30 minutes. And so they'll be sad that they're not near. I'm like, yeah, but it's saving me 2300amonth. And he's getting older and he really.

[Rachel Cruze]

Is like you could probably help him. I mean 90 years old for sure. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I. I'm sorry that these children have hard times. That they have to go to an in state school and drive 30 minutes to school. But their mother is a single mom who's deeply in debt because of a nasty divorce.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And such is life.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

They will survive these 1% problems.

[Caller]

Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

Seriously.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruze]

And Jenny. And it's probably a level of guilt on your end ends as a mom because of the divorce and everything that you're trying to provide a great life for them. Right. Your motivation is totally understandable. Totally understandable. But you can't let the guilt override really Bad financial decisions. And when emotions get caught up, that's what we find when people are fearful. Guilt, shame, all of it. They end up making bad financial decisions. So don't let a level of mom guilt of what they've gone through with the divorce. Divorce continue. What you think in the moment is a good decision for them because it makes them happy, ends up being a bad decision long term for them. And so.

[Dave Ramsey]

And for you, how far do you drive to work?

[Caller]

It's about 20 minutes. Yeah, 25 minutes. Well, it's the same difference.

[Dave Ramsey]

Kind of like 30 minutes. Yeah. Like, you drive that far to work, they can drive that far to school. Wah. Seriously, you're gonna have to do some smart things for your family, honey. Even if it's short term, it creates a little drama or pain. I love you. I appreciate you. You're stronger than you think you are. Hold. Hold. The. When you're tired of feeling stuck with money, there's just one solution. To get different results, you have to do something different. No one accidentally wins with money. You have to have a game plan. And that begins with our get started assessment. Go to ramseysolutions.com start, answer some questions and we'll show you what steps to take next. Don't stay stuck. Take control of your money. Starting Today, go with ramseysolutions.com start. Our scripture of the day is Proverbs 19:21. Many plans are in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will stand. Thomas Edison said, just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless. Whoa, there's interesting. Okay, so let's go back for a second, Rachel. When we were doing the documentary several years ago called Borrowed Future, which, by the way, you can still watch, it's award winning on YouTube, it's free, and it's fabulous on the student loan crisis. And one of the things that you said when we were putting all of that together, you and I were taking one of those calls on the air, was that we don't have a student loan crisis. We have a parenting crisis. You remember that?

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes. We'd say that in live events.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and we always kind of, you know, 3,000 people in the audience, they kind of go, ooh. When you say that. Right. It's like a.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, it is. Because I think there is a level of wisdom as parents that there's certain things you see that are going to harm your kids. And when they're 18, their frontal part of their brain isn't even formed of how to make cause and effect decisions. Right. And so you have to be able to step in on really big things in your kids lives to be able to speak the truth. And I think sometimes you draw a line in the sand and it's black and white and it feels harsh at times. And what you have to realize is you are loving your kids even when it's a hard decision and even when there's emotion and they may get mad, they may get frustrated, but what you have to remember is they're 18. They don't understand. They don't understand the life that you have lived. They don't understand what they're about to do is about to put them financially in a hardship for years and years and years where a lot of people regret it. So many people that come out with high student loan debt and they're just, you know, got their MBA and they're just trying to find a job and they look back and they realize, oh my gosh, I don't even know if the ROI was right on this.

[Dave Ramsey]

Right.

[Rachel Cruze]

So whether it is a master's or advanced degree or even an undergrad degree at a school that is a private university that you could literally get a four, you could pay a fourth of what you got for the exact same.

[Dave Ramsey]

Degree somewhere else, an eighth.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. So it's just, it's an, it's a conversation about not only the future of them, but also just make smart financial decisions. Now, the ROI on what it is. And so yeah, college is one of.

[Dave Ramsey]

Those you can choose as a parent to build your influence throughout your child's life so that you can persuasively lead them away from a college choice that causes student loan debt, let alone you.

[Rachel Cruze]

Participating by a parent.

[Dave Ramsey]

And if that won't and you don't participate, you don't borrow money. Borrowing money is off the table. And we're going to go to a school we can pay cash for and we're going to go to a school that gives us a return on investment for the education. Okay. In other words, is the extra cost worth it in the sense that you make more or have a higher probability of success due to that? That's the return on investment. It's not. I've always dreamed and my daddy wanted me to, and it's a pretty town and oh my God, the stupid stuff I have heard here on the Internet air on college choice. The number one reason for student loan debt is choosing to go to a school that you can't afford. It's not choosing an education. It's choosing a school that you can't afford. So we just had this example. This young lady is an honor student. She can go to Georgia, the University of Georgia, fabulous southeast school. Business school is strong. She can go there and go for free. With the Georgia scholarships that are available and with the fact that she's stinking honor student and walking in there, they're gonna, you know, and she can go virtually free to, you know, one of the top schools in the nation or she can go to a name brand school that's more expensive. That's yaya. Okay, now let me tell you how what the data says, there's zero credible research that says where you went to school causes your success. Zero. None. None. You cannot find any data that says Vanderbilt and Harvard over Georgia, Northwestern over Georgia causes success. No data. There's no one has ever been able to do it. Find a credible study on that. It doesn't exist. It's bullcrap in the marketing and in the aristocratic. Sticking my nose in the air so my upper lip gets sunburned about where my stinking kid goes to college. It's all it is.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's the parents ego, a lot of it.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's the parents ego and it's the ego of the individual going, saying I went there. But the actual data says 78% of the Fortune 500 presidents on the publicly traded big board went to state schools. Schools, 8 out of 10 state schools. So there's actually data that says going to a state school has a higher probability of leading a Fortune 500 company than going to a muckety muck with a name.

[Rachel Cruze]

So the biggest, the biggest pushback I'm hearing now is it's the people that you get to meet.

[Dave Ramsey]

I've heard that my whole life. And so far, so far those people have not caused anyone to be successful. We can't find any research that says that success comes from grit, perseverance, character, integrity and knowledge base. Not hobnobbing with a bunch of snobs. That is book my fraternity brothers caused me to be successful. Horse crap. It didn't happen ever on this century. Ever. Once. Never. But these people all act like this because they have to rationalize these stupid dollars they paid for this. So Vanderbilt right now is 80,000 dol a year to go to school. University of Tennessee is $12,000 a year to go to school. I went to the University of Tennessee and people that went to Vanderbilt work for me now. Figure that one out. This is the way the life works out here, boys. And girls. So in other words, I got enough knowledge base at the wonderful Haslam School of Business at the University of Tennessee, I got enough knowledge base to build a $300 million company. And my character and my grit and God's blessings and the stuff we've all been through to get here. Okay?

[Rachel Cruze]

And to be honest, the education you got was probably a fraction of you actually succeeding. It is the perseverance. It is the hard work. It's the never give up. You know what I mean? It's those things.

[Dave Ramsey]

The education I use, I use accounting every day. I use statistics every day on the air with you people. And I learned that academically there.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

So it is an actual education that has value. Yes. But where I went to school, the number of times someone came up to me and goes, here's a million dollars because you went to UT is zero. It's quite the other way around. UT says, could we have a million dollars? That's exactly what it is. I mean, this is y'. All. This is. This is where we get our problem from. And as parents, you need to speak into this and not participate in all this mythology. Love your children enough to give them a big nope, nope, nope. You're not doing that. If you do that, you're not taking this car that's got my name on it. If you do that, you're not taking a dime of my money. You are on your own. If you're going to go live in the land of stupid, I'm going to wave at you from over here. I love you and I'll watch you wreck your life, but I will not help you wreck your life. And I will do everything I can to talk you out of it and to stand in your way. My child tells you where they're going to school. My kid didn't tell me nothing with my money. I told them stuff. And Rachel can attest to that. We had discussions and we talked persuasively and I talked adult to adult until they weren't acting like an adult. And then I just told them what we're doing and that, oh, you can't do. Yeah, by God, you can do that. Tell your counselor when you're 30, but you're not going to be in student loan debt because your dad's a butthole. Great, that's fine. But you're not going to be the.

[Rachel Cruze]

Student loan debt therapist because you don't have loans.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I mean, that's it. You can afford one because you don't have student loan debt.

[Rachel Cruze]

Go but, you know, this is how.

[Dave Ramsey]

To control you guys.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes. And again, this is on the borrowing side. If you have $5 million, you want to send your kids somewhere, that's fine. That.

[Dave Ramsey]

But don't do it on the basis of it's going to cause them to be successful.

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, totally. Oh, 100%. 100%.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's mythology.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes, 100%.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's absolute mythology. The reason I'm successful is I went to mit. Said no one ever. Really? She Seriously? Well, possible exception of Trump, but anyway, there you go. That was fun. That was a fun little rant.

[Rachel Cruze]

Good.

[Dave Ramsey]

So we need to get that out of my system. Happy Thanksgiving.

[Rachel Cruze]

Everyone was worried about you. You're in good health, good spirits. You've seen it here.

[Dave Ramsey]

Everything's good.

[Rachel Cruze]

Thanksgiving.

[Dave Ramsey]

That puts us hour of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of peace, Christ Jesus.