You Can Stay Broke Or Start Changing

Summary

The Ramsey Show Podcast Summary – “You Can Stay Broke Or Start Changing”

Date: October 10, 2025
Hosts: Jade Warshaw, Dr. John Delony
Podcast Network: Ramsey Network

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Overview

In this empowering episode, Jade Warshaw and Dr. John Delony take live calls and social questions focused on overcoming personal and family financial challenges, navigating relational dynamics when handling money, escaping debt, and building wealth intentionally. The show blends practical financial advice with emotional insights, emphasizing how mindset, boundaries, and integrity play a key role in changing your money story and creating a solid financial future.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Taking (or Rejecting) Gifts with Strings Attached

[00:38 – 09:00]

• Caller Dana in Phoenix faces the dilemma of accepting a $38,000 gift from her in-laws, given a family history of manipulation tied to money.
• Jade and John underscore that money can magnify personality traits and dysfunction. The real problem is the in-laws’ controlling behavior, not the money itself.
• Advice: Set clear boundaries. If accepting, communicate up front: “We’re grateful, but we want no strings attached…” (07:36)
• Memorable Quote:
  • “Money magnifies everything. It magnifies you as you already are. It makes you more of what you already are.” – Jade Warshaw [08:30]
• Alternative options: Suggest a grandparent 529 college fund if uncomfortable with direct gifts.

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2. Navigating Debt and Downsizing for Retirees

[10:39 – 27:09]

• Caller Kelly (NC) and husband, both in their late 70s, owe about $36,000 in credit card debt and have a large mortgage ($2,100/mo on $5,000 income). They dream of using their home for ministry, but the payment is unsustainable.
• Action Plan:
  • Sell the house, rent, and keep housing at ≤25% of take-home pay ($1,250–$1,500/mo).
  • Use the snowball method for remaining debts.
  • Reduce utilities and living expenses by moving to smaller accommodations.
• Emotional Advice: There’s no shame in downsizing or living within your means, even late in life.
• Quote:
  • “There is no shame in living on your hard-earned income.” – Jade [26:14]
  • “You can’t handle another financial emergency, another health issue.” – John [27:09]

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3. Building Emergency Funds and Facing Life Changes

[27:25 – 30:55]

• Caller Lucy wonders if, after fully funding their emergency fund (Baby Step 3), they should save even more.
• Advice: 3–6 months of expenses is standard; lean toward 6 months for added security, especially with a single income or volatile job.
• Distinguish between “emergency funds” (for the unforeseeable) and “sinking funds” (for known, upcoming maintenance or purchases).

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4. Homebuying When Young and Without Credit

[34:26 – 41:40]

• Caller Eric (19, in TN) worries about not having a credit score; how will he buy a house?
• Advice: No need to build credit artificially. Manual underwriting allows homebuying with zero credit score.
• Stay patient and don't rush: “Slow down. Relax.” – John [41:20]
• Save aggressively before buying; consider renting if outgrowing a starter home.

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5. Mortgage Myths: Debt Tricks, True Wealth, and Peace

[44:30 – 52:09]

• Caller Hattie asks about mortgage “hacks” found on social media, like using a $10k line of credit to arbitrage payments.
• Strongly advised: Keep it simple:
  • “The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.” – Jade [47:30]
  • Pay extra towards principal, choose a 15-year fixed mortgage.
  • “Solve for peace, not for arbitrage.” – John [45:23]

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6. Prioritizing Family, Adoption, and Surrogacy Costs

[54:29 – 63:29]

• Caller Nicole needs to budget for adoption/surrogacy ($30k–$200k). She and her husband are unsure how this fits within Ramsey's Baby Steps.
• Advice:
  • Never go into debt for adoption/surrogacy.
  • Treat the adoption fund as a “debt snowball” target.
  • Explore grants, tax breaks, employer benefits, and pace based on savings ability.
  • “No amount of money is worth your peace and personal integrity.” – Jade [80:43]

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7. Gambling, Financial Infidelity, and Life Reset

[66:50 – 74:22]

• Caller Sue (54, Chicago) recently discovered her husband’s gambling and financial (and sexual) infidelity; their savings and child’s college fund are gone.
• Emotional/Financial First Steps:
  • Secure a safe place for herself and her daughter.
  • Open personal bank accounts, pull and freeze credit.
  • Seek legal counsel, set short-term goals before worrying about long-term finances.
  • “Anxiety is taking future stuff and dragging it into the present… Don’t do that. You’ve got enough trouble today.” – John [70:34]

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8. Car Buying: New vs. Used, Net Worth Benchmarks

[106:27 – 114:15]

• Caller Brian (late 20s, $830k net worth, $200k annual income) wants to spend $40k on a car, wonders if there’s a financial difference between new or used at the same price.
• Advice: Used is almost always better value due to new car depreciation. Wait to buy new until you have a $1M net worth.
• “Do you want to burn $10,000 just for buying new?” – John [108:06]
• The “Ramsey Rule”: Never own vehicles/toys worth more than half your annual take-home pay.

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9. Should You Convert 401(k) to Roth?

[117:49 – 124:45]

• Caller Kira considers converting her traditional 401(k) to Roth.
• Advice:
  • Always contribute enough to get the employer match first (even if in traditional).
  • Roth beats traditional for anything beyond the match.
  • Large Roth conversions (“backlog”) are best as a Baby Step 7 action (after house is paid off), to avoid a heavy tax burden while still working on debt.
  • Consult a tax professional before large conversions.

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10. The Intersection of Money and Personal Conviction

[75:46 – 82:59]

• Social Question: Gabriel asks if he should accept lucrative video game contract work after personally walking away from gaming for spiritual/personal reasons.
• Deliberation: No amount of money is worth giving up your peace or personal integrity. If the work could tempt you back into unhealthy habits, it’s best to walk away.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• “Money just magnifies everything, right? It magnifies you as you already are… It makes you more of what you already are.”—Jade, on accepting gifts with strings [08:30]
• “You’re solving for seven steps down the road. I need you to solve for step one.” —John, to Sue on escaping a marriage with gambling [69:34]
• “Slow down, relax.” —John, to Eric about home ownership at 19 [41:20]
• “Solve for peace, not for arbitrage.” —John, to Hattie about mortgage ‘hacks’ [45:23]
• “No amount of money is worth your personal peace and integrity.” —Jade, on the video game commission dilemma [80:43]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• In-law gift boundaries & manipulation: [00:38–09:01]
• Retired couple’s debt & downsizing: [10:39–27:09]
• Emergency funds, sinking funds: [27:25–30:55]
• Young, no-credit home buying: [34:26–41:40]
• Mortgage ‘hacks’ and peace: [44:30–52:09]
• Adoption/surrogacy budgeting: [54:29–63:29]
• Marriage destroyed by infidelity/gambling: [66:50–74:22]
• Car buying: new vs. used: [106:27–114:15]
• 401(k) to Roth conversion strategy: [117:49–124:45]
• Should you work in an industry you’ve left? [75:46–82:59]

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Themes & Takeaways

• Money isn’t just about math—it’s deeply connected to our emotions, relationships, and life values.
• Boundaries (with family, lenders, spouses, even ourselves) are crucial for peace and real financial progress.
• True financial security comes from willingness to face uncomfortable choices, not avoidance or denial.
• Seek to “solve for peace” over optimizing every penny, especially when complexity or drama threaten your joy.
• Integrity—whether that’s saying “no” to lucrative but problematic work or refusing to build credit just to play the system—is the foundation for lasting wealth and a clear conscience.

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To get started on your new financial story, the episode encourages using the EveryDollar app, taking Ramsey’s Get Started Assessment, and finding trusted professionals (ELPs, insurance brokers, and realtors) at ramseysolutions.com.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

To you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today.

[A]

Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network in the Fair Winds Credit Union studio. This is the Ramsey Show. All right. We're talking about your life and money. Nothing's changed. The number is 888-825-5225. That'll get you on the line. I'm here with Dr. John DeLoney. I'm Jade. Let's get into it, John. Let's get involved. We got Dana in Phoenix, Arizona. What's up, Dana?

[C]

Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I really appreciate it.

[A]

No problem.

[C]

My question is whether or not my husband and I should accept a gift of $38,000 from our in laws when there is a major history of dysfunction around money in his family.

[A]

What's the gift for? Why is it just out of the blue or is it for something specific?

[C]

They pretty regularly are trying to give us money and pay for things, but this gift apparently is for tax purposes. They recently met with their financial planner tax accountant who told them that because of their gains that they made this year in the stock market, that it would be tax advantageous for them to gift each of us $19,000. The backstory really is that his parents have used money as a tool for control and manipulation in the past. So much so that when we were Planning our wedding 17 years ago, we ended up eloping because of their behavior around money.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And the money issues, as well as other things led to us not having a relationship with them for 10 years.

[A]

Is it just your husband or their other children?

[C]

He has a brother. Things are kind of different with his relation, his brother's relationship with his parents. They just have very different personalities and how they handle things.

[A]

So the money's not been a problem for the brother that you know of, or is it kind of a problem for him, too?

[C]

Well, they've sort of used the same tactics with his brother, except that his brother and his wife gladly accept money from them anytime it's offered. Since they've reestablished their relationship, my husband and his parents, six years ago, they actually ended up moving to our small town two years ago. And since then, it's just they're constantly trying to give us money. We're business owners.

[A]

Give us an example of the manipulation. Tell us what that looks like. Tell us what happened either with the wedding or. And tell us. Tell us.

[D]

I want a recent one.

[C]

Yeah, you want a recent one. So anytime. So, like, I Said, we're business owners. Anytime something happens. So if a truck breaks down or, you know, just regular business things happen, it's, let us pay for it, we'll pay for it. We'll buy you another truck. And when we say no, they tell my husband that he's being difficult. They don't understand why they won't let him. Let them just help.

[A]

And what does he say?

[C]

There's. There's crying. There's a lot of emotional manipulation.

[D]

Jay's question is important. What is his next statement? If his next statement is, I love you all too much and I'm so glad we have our relationship back, I can't let money come between us. That's one thing. If he. When they start crying and he says, fine, just fine, then that's another thing. So what's his response?

[C]

His response to them is that we're just not comfortable taking the money or the help. I don't know how in depth he's got with them about. Because of money issues in the past, because generally when he's tried to bring up things from the past, he's usually met with, I don't know what you're talking about. That never happened.

[A]

And what were those Tell, like, I need from you, Dana, like, the raw and the real. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, tell me when we did it, he slapped her and said that she. He was ungrateful. Like, tell me the drama part of it. Because honestly, at this point, as you're telling me, it doesn't really sound like they're bad people or, like, doing anything wrong, per se. It just sounds like they see an area, they want to help and they're confused that you don't want their help. And them being confused doesn't make them bad guys to me or manipulators. It just makes them parents that are overstepping a boundary that maybe you've laid over and over again, and they just can't see why you wouldn't want to take a gift. Tell me the. The toxic part of it. Is there a toxic part of it where when you take the money, they try to control you and tell you. Tell me that part.

[C]

Yes. So I'll give you our wedding example. When we were planning our wedding, where we were getting married was a resort by a creek. And as is traditional and normal, we asked his parents to pay for their lodging. Father was paying for our wedding. And the lodging that we offered to them, my parents asked, did they want this house? It was the house that was right next to the creek. It had four or five bedrooms in it. And we figured that their whole immediate family and everyone could stay in that house since they were traveling. And if they didn't want that house, my parents would have paid for it. When we presented it to my father in law, he said, of course he paid for it. And then as soon as money was involved, we started getting constant phone calls telling us what to do with our wedding, how to plan the wedding, who could come, who couldn't come. I remember very specifically getting a phone call from my father in law asking me when I was going to send the save the date. And my timeline on sending them was unacceptable to him. And he specifically said to me, this isn't rocket science, Dana. You need to send it.

[A]

Okay, now I'm starting. Now I'm starting to get it. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So you had this bad exam, this bad thing that happened long time ago, and it's kind of left a bad taste in everybody's mouth. You don't want to take money anymore. And when you try to explain to them, hey, the last time we took money, this is how you guys acted. We don't want to do that again. They're kind of like, don't bring up the past. What are you talking about? They're doing that Right.

[C]

Well, the thing is, is we haven't really addressed the past.

[A]

Okay, so it sounds. I mean, John, jump in here because here's you.

[D]

Did your husband. Do you all just not want to take this money?

[C]

It. Well, the issue is mostly for our business. We're very proud of ourselves that we've built this.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But there's a point of that where it becomes ego.

[A]

Right? Because I'm this, Listen, I'm looking at 38,000 and I'm like, tell me more. Because this.

[D]

I built something cool, too. And if you want to send me 38 grand, I'm happy to take it. Here's the deal. It's just that y' all have had a grenade dropped. Grenade's probably dramatic. You've had a large firecracker dropped in your living room. They offered you 38 grand if you take it. That might come with. You're going to do Christmas here because we gave you this money. And y' all are going to say, no, we don't want to do Christmas there. We're going to do somewhere else. And they're. You're going to have an adult temper tantrum on their side, or you're going to say no to the money and you're going to have an adult Temper tantrum on their side, so they've already taken the step. So really, here's the. Here's the bigger issue. You're still. No matter what decision you'll make, you are letting them drive the right decision for you and your husband. And at some point, y' all have to decide that. We decide what's best for us. And if it's taking the money and dealing with drama or dealing with somebody saying, you didn't send these out in the right time. Shut up. Who cares?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay, man.

[A]

Say on the front end, hey, we're not. We just want you to know we're so grateful, and this is such a nice gift, but please, we don't want any strings to be attached, which means if it's a gift, it's a gift, and we'd be grateful to you for giving it. But we're hoping that there will be nothing else attached to it. And if there is, let us know now so we can decide. That's what I. That's what I'd say.

[D]

Or they can create a 529 for their grandkids.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Or.

[A]

Or.

[D]

Or just say, we don't. We don't want your money.

[A]

Yeah, you could say that, too.

[D]

Because I'm willing to bet. I'm willing to bet you would have started getting those emails and calls if he hadn't have had to pay for his own place for that wedding. Is that fair?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So they're gonna be like this whether they're giving you money or not, right?

[A]

Oh, that's such a good point.

[C]

Yeah. It's just such an ongoing issue. I just don't. I know it's important.

[A]

I don't think.

[C]

I don't want our relationship to get affected.

[D]

I don't think the relationship's already affected. It's already a problem.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think the money is the problem. I think their personality style and their personality traits are the problem. And money just magnifies everything, Right? It magnifies you as you already are. It makes you more of what you already are. So it's more of. I don't really like their personality. They're controlling people. That's another topic.

[D]

So you're in a fight. Take the money or don't take the. But you're gonna have a fight either way.

[B]

Statistics show that half of Americans don't have enough life insurance or they don't have any at all. I don't understand this, John. Why don't people want to take care of their family? They think they're Gonna die or something.

[D]

Well, I used to be one of those guys. I didn't even think about it. And one of my buddies said, hey, the only reason to not have life insurance is if you hate your wife and kids. And I immediately went and got term life insurance.

[B]

That's a gut punch.

[D]

And. Oh, you're telling me. And for decades, Dave, I've sat across people who've lost a spouse, they've lost somebody important to them.

[B]

Me too.

[D]

They don't know what to do next.

[B]

Me too. I mean, you're going to have a crisis here and, you know, you got two options. While you're sitting and talking to a young widow, she's concerned about how she's going to invest all this money properly and not mess this up or she's concerned how she's going to eat tomorrow. That's exactly the two options. And take care of your dadgum family.

[D]

Term life insurance can replace income, pay off debts, cover funeral expenses. So your family can actually have the opportunity to just be sad.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

To just miss you.

[B]

That's exactly what it's supposed to be. It's saying, I love you to your family. Term life insurance, Jeff Zander and the team at Zander Insurance makes it easy and affordable. I've used them personally for 25 years. They're the only people I trust. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282.

[A]

All right, back to the phone lines we go. We've got Kelly, who's in North Carolina. Kelly, how can we hope today?

[C]

Hi, I've got some credit card debt and two of them is over 26,000, 26,706. I'm overwhelmed. I've tried to keep up with everything, but with the interest rate, I'm not getting anywhere. And so I don't know what to do. I don't know what it is. Bankruptcy. I've called different debt things and they want like the fees are like $16,000, $10,000 for fees. And in my head, I don't see that that's real. I don't know what to do. I don't know whether it's all in bankruptcy or what to do. I'm, We've, we've cleared off, I think five, six cards and they're shut down. We're shutting down as fast as we can. But the two. And we have a couple others, but we, we can work those through. But the two with the chase. I'm, I'm at Williams. I, I don't know what to do.

[A]

Okay, Kelly, so can you told me the. The two that's got the 26,000 on it. Can you tell me the rest of the debt?

[C]

Yes, I can. Well, I thought I could so.

[A]

Because you mentioned. You said the two combined. The two combined is 26,706. Then you said there's a couple others that you can kind of handle.

[C]

Yeah, there's one that's 8,000 was discovered.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

But I think that we could handle that. And there's another one I think that we owe. Why When I had it right in front of me. Now I can't see.

[A]

That's okay. You. You look for that and I'll just verify a couple other simple questions. You said we. Is it you and your husband?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. How old are you guys?

[C]

My husband is 78 and I just turned 76. My husband had pastored for 56 years. We lived in church parsonages.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And so then we had to move into a house and we used a lot of credit car.

[A]

Okay, so you guys have really been using credit cards to live on?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

That is such.

[A]

I'm sorry, Kelly.

[C]

It's okay. I need to bite my bottom lip for a minute.

[D]

Yeah. You're okay to be sad. You're right to be sad.

[C]

But I'm trying to. I'm trying to work it out.

[D]

I don't know.

[C]

Should I try to call.

[D]

No, no, no. You called the right place. Yeah, you called the right place. What's your total? If you had to add up all the money that you owe somebody else, how much is that?

[C]

Well, discover we owe $8,236 and 55 cents.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And there's another small one and I can't find it. It's like $430 or something like that. We can do that. I want to do what's right before the Lord. But I just.

[A]

Well, listen, you're on the right track. Your. Your heart and your mind are saying I need to clean up this mess. And that's the first step. And we're going to help you with the rest.

[C]

Yeah, we don't go out to eat. I believe you're at the house. We. I have so selling stuff right and left. Like there's something somebody supposed to come and buy today that if they show up, we'll help.

[A]

Yeah. Listen, I believe that you're doing all that, Kelly. I think you're doing all the right things. We're going to try to help you take the next step. Can you us what your income is every month between.

[C]

Yes. I can my. Let me get my ledger here. I get $1,638.60 in Medicare.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

We have a house rental that we get $1,012.50 a month. My husband gets. His Social Security is 1598.90amonth. 1598.

[A]

Huh?

[C]

And then from the Southern Baptist, he gets. It's called a housing allowance. So we don't have any tax on it. And it's 382.39amonth.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And then he gets a small VA disability check of 171.23amonth.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And then he gets a small retirement. 372.95 for teachers retirement.

[A]

Okay. So you're almost 5,000 bucks a month. Yeah. Okay, good.

[C]

So, I mean, I'm really.

[A]

How much of that do you pay? I know you get a housing allowance, but how much of that do you pay to your home every month?

[C]

We are. Our house payment is $2,166.04.

[A]

Okay. That's a big part of this. While you're feeling so much stress. Okay. Your. Your housing payments high. And can you tell me, you said you moved into that house recently. Can you tell me what the house, what you purchased it for?

[C]

Well, 19 years ago, when my husband was pastor, he had a major heart attack while preaching and he had to have a 4 bypass. And we were a long ways away from the hospital. And so we stayed at a place called Antioch House. So one of our hearts dreams that we would pay that forward. So our heart was the house that we have here has three bedrooms downstairs and a very, very large room upstairs.

[A]

Got it.

[C]

So what we want to do is establish a place called the Shepherd's Home. They can come stay with us and we can still minister to them.

[A]

I love. Go ahead, John.

[D]

I was gonna say. Kelly, can I tell you something? And I'm telling you because I love you.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Y' all can't afford to do that right now. Your heart is so big and it's like it was such a blessing. But y' all aren't in a position to do that right now because y' all can't make your basic payments, your basic bills. And that dream is amazing.

[C]

And we know that we can't do it until we get out of debt.

[D]

I know, but you don't. You. Even if you were out of debt, like sustainably speaking, like, it's, it's. It, it. I don't know there's ever a scenario where 50 of your take home pay or 40 of your take home Pay should go to housing, because housing, the, the taxes are going to go up, the cost of electricity is going to go like this is going to continue to be an escalating burden for you.

[A]

Yeah, the cost of living is going to go up, but you're on a fixed income, which that means it's going to stay the same. So we've got you in a position that's sustainable for you to manage the monthly payment of your rent or mortgage. And also to your point, make, make some headway on these credit cards because you can't pay them off. Making the minimum payment.

[D]

Do you have any equity in this house that if y' all sold it, you could clear your debts?

[C]

No, we don't, we don't have. We have. Well, and one of the things I didn't understand is the first year we overpaid our taxes on the house and the tax company here did a refund to the mortgage company and I told the mortgage company, I said, we've overpaid you. You need to either give us that money back or let us apply that $7,000 overpayment to principal. And they said no, it went back in escrow for the following year.

[D]

Yeah, it just goes into the following year's taxes. So you're not going to lose that money. You just don't get it right now.

[A]

It's gone towards the next year's taxes.

[C]

So, see, but every, every month they take out money out of our land for the taxes. So why didn't they?

[D]

Kelly, I want to hold you over because your problem is one that millions and millions of people are facing. And so I want to give you a step by step plan. And I don't want to get distracted by, well, the tax over here and then this over there. But I want to, I want you to hang on the line. We're going to go to a break and we come back, we're going to walk through this with you. But you're going to have to open your heart up to some significant changes in how you all are doing life so that y' all can put your own oxygen mask on first and then be able to take care of the people around you. Foreign.

[B]

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[D]

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[A]

If you're a person who's been rocking with us for a while, you've been watching the show on YouTube, maybe you check it out on podcast or on the Ramsey network app. Hey, maybe you're still listening to us on a thing called the radio. We're really grateful for that radio. When was the last time you had the radio on?

[D]

I had it on this week.

[A]

I love that.

[D]

Just listening to old country music.

[A]

I love that. Wow, that's great.

[D]

And hey, here's a flex. My son, he's 15, is like, dad, turn off this. Just turn the radio on. And I'm just wondering.

[A]

I like that.

[D]

If they're done with all the playlists reverting back.

[A]

Yep, I love it. Listen wherever you're listening to the show, first off, we just want to say thank you for listening. If it wasn't for you guys, John and I wouldn't have jobs. So thank you so much for listening. And if this show has done anything for you, take a moment and share it with somebody. Honestly, the best marketing plan out there is just word of mouth. So if you like the show, if we said something that hit share it with somebody, hit the little paper airplane on social or, you know, send them a link, you know, slide in their DMs, whatever, whatever method of choice that you have, keep sharing the show. We really, really appreciate it. Something that you can do that's totally free and only takes a second of your time, but has a great, great benefit. Thank you so much. Okay, we are going to go back on the line. Remember, Kelly was on the line a few minutes ago, just a little. Her and her husband, 78, 76 years old, They've got a decent amount of debt. So far. It looks like they've got somewhere around maybe $36,000 of debt. We haven't gotten the exact number yet, but they're making 5,000 bucks a month and she's looking for a way out. We were able to figure out that her house payment is 2100 of the 5000. So right now we're talking about what it looks like, Kelly, to sell your house because I know that you have a dream of ministry and, you know, being able to gift those rooms to people in need in your three bedroom house. But.

[D]

Or is there a possibility that you, in the short term, maybe the next year, Kelly, you invited people to live with you and charge them a thousand bucks a month or 500 or $800 a month and they could rent the rooms from you for the next year, the next two years while y' all climb out of debt and get yourselves in a better position.

[C]

Well, actually we have a really, really large room upstairs that has, you know, complete bathroom. It's got a couch, it's got queen bed and everything. And we thought about renting that out, but everybody that we've talked to wants an outside entrance.

[D]

Sure, I can see that.

[A]

Kelly, I'm going to shoot you straight.

[D]

Here's the. Yeah, here's where you find yourself.

[A]

I'm gonna shoot you straight. You've got to sell your house. Renting, renting is putting way more on your plate. At 78 years old, it's something that you'll have to keep up indefinitely because like I said before, you're on that fixed income. So your plan today, I'm going to tell you right off the bat, your plan is to rent, put your house up for sale, get on ramseysolutions.com and find yourself a realtor because we have the best in the business and you got to sell this house. And after that you've got to find something, even if you rent for a while, something that is only 25% your take home pay, that's all you can afford. So you're spending like $1,250 a month or $1,500 a month. That's basically your budget there. And then from there we're going to do a little thing called the debt snowball. You're going to list and you're going to go through tonight with your husband and you're going to find all the things that you owe. You're going to list them from smallest to largest and you're going to pay the minimum payment on everything, Kelly. But the smallest debt, that's where you put all your extra money until you knock it out. So it sounded like you had one that was for about $430. Let's get that one knocked out immediately. And so that's how this is going to work. And then you'll go to the next smallest Debt. In the meantime, we're going to get you hooked up with every dollar and on every dollar you can get a free coaching call. So we're going to make sure to get you hooked up. Our phone screener is going to pick up and make sure to get you hooked up with that. Okay, so you're all taken care of.

[D]

I think, I think something else I want to call out here if you have too much house. Right. And by the way, let's go back to Kelly for those of you who are just tuning in. Kelly and her husband were beneficiaries of some free housing while they had a major medical emergency, you know, years ago. And they've always had the dream of being able to offer that sort of support for somebody else. That's amazing. And they've got a math problem, which is we can't afford to pay off our debts and make our, make our payments. So if you buy a house that's too much, usually that means depending on what market you're in, that house is big, which means your electric bill is high, your water bill is more to air, to air conditioning, heat. That place is more. So in their situation, they may be looking at a one bedroom apartment because that's what they can afford.

[A]

Absolutely.

[D]

And that also drops their utility payments. It drops everything. So you're not just going to see the, the, the savings in the mortgage. You're going to see savings that come from all over the place and that can help you get out there faster.

[A]

And let me just, can I just say this because I feel like we live in a world today where everything has to be bigger and better and flashier and newer. Can I just say there's no shame in living on your hard earned income. Yeah. And just living on what your income can afford you, that credit card companies will make you feel like you need more and we need extra. But to just work hard and in her case, to have worked hard for, you know, seven levels of life. Right. And to just say, okay, we worked hard for seven, seven decade, we got $5,000. That is our income and we are going to live on that and have pride in that and feel good about that. There is no shame in the game of that.

[D]

That's right.

[A]

And I just might look differently than.

[D]

You dreamed your 70s would look.

[A]

Right.

[D]

But man, oh man, that you're talking about an amazing woman, an amazing husband who are really on the edge. They can't handle another financial emergency, another health issue.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. All right, let's go to Lucy, who's in Atlanta. All right, Lucy, how can we help you today?

[C]

Hi, Jade. Hi, John. How are y' all doing?

[A]

Great.

[C]

Good. It's nice to talk with y'. All. I'm very honored to speak with you. I grew up in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, right down the road from y'. All. And we took a Ramsey course my senior year of high school. Got away from it a little bit, came back here recently, about three months ago and started listening to the, to the show. And I, me and my husband, we got married about a year and a half ago, both brought some credit card debt into the relationship and ended up paying that off as a yesterday. So we paid off about 7,000. And so now we're on baby step three, obviously saving for three to six months of expenses. But I kind of wanted to know, I mentioned this to my dad and he had said that it would be a good idea to reach out to y' all and see what you think. Once we save up for that three to six months of emergency fund, would you recommend saving even more just in case anything happens, like with our roof? I know that's technically what the emergency fund is for, or even putting stuff aside for travel fun items.

[A]

Okay. So, yeah, we're talking about two different things. I love the question. Yeah. After baby step three. So the purpose of baby step three, let's just re reiterate, is for emergencies. It is an a fully funded emergency fund. And we suggest three to six months. Now, whether you do three or six months is largely dependent on personal factors. So if you're a single person with one income and maybe you have a health issue that flares up every couple years, you want six months, Right. You want more. You want to make sure you can cover your deductible of that. If you're a family, maybe you're a family and you're dinks and you both have a high income, you have stable jobs, you're healthy people, maybe you opt for three months. Right. So it's up to you, depending on those sorts of factors in today's world, I'm not going to lie, for most people, I'm like, just go on ahead and do six months. I just feel like we like that security, the way the world is now. I don't know. So once you get that six months, Lucy, that's really all you need. Need now from there, if you're going to continue to save up for other areas that are kind of like sinking fund areas, whether it be like you said, we know we need a new roof. We know that's coming. If you know something's coming, it's not an emergency yet. So, yeah, you need to save up if, you know, you want to purchase, you know, upgrade your car or you know that you're putting a down payment on a house. Right. So those are, those are sinking funds. And just a reiteration, maintenance and known maintenance, John, is not an emergency.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, your car is going to need new tires. Save up for it. You know, if you have a, a leak and you see it starting to form and you know, like, hey, I'm not going to run this through insurance. We're just going to pay for it, save up for it. That's not an emergency. You knew you see it coming, you know it's coming. So that's just a little sidebar there.

[D]

But yeah, the ex, the thing, the thing that happened to me and my wife is we had to replace the roof with a. Without thinking we were going to have to. And then of course, that's when the air conditioner went out. Right, Right. So we were able to save up for the roof issue and we had an emergency fund for the air conditioner. And if we had just tried to play it out, be like, just pretend it's an. We'll wait till it's an emergency. Yeah, it, you, you'll, they'll double and triple up on you.

[A]

And now my screen said. You never mentioned this. My screen said, when can we open fun accounts while working the baby steps. You didn't mention anything about that. So let me just hit that right quick. Yeah. After baby step three is when it's time to start having some fun again. So that's when you add back in those.

[D]

Go to dinner, go to movies, you'll go on a trip. Go have fun.

[B]

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[A]

All right, the all new every dollar is here and now. It's way more than just our world class budgeting app. There's a ton of advanced features to help you make faster progress with your money. As a matter of fact, the average person finds thousands of dollars in margin in just the first 15 minutes. Matter of fact, we've gotten some calls through here, John, already of people saying, hey guys, I'm, I'm in the all new every dollar and I've already found, you know, X amount of margin and I'm putting it towards my debt. And so I think that's really exciting to hear. But you can start today at every, you can start your every dollar today for free. You can get in the App store or at Google Play. But guys, I'm telling you, you get in there, you do a quick onboarding and don't, don't try to skip the onboarding because that's where they find out everything they need to know so that you can have a personalized plan. So it just takes a few minutes. Minutes. Give them the information, then it's going to spit back, hey, based on what you told us, here's the amount of money that we can find you. And I'm telling you there is money hiding in plain sight in your budget and in your finances. You just needed somebody else to look at it. And so it'll look at it, spit back and say, hey, we found you. X amount of thousands of dollars. Here's what you and then it'll tell you, here's what you need to do to get it. And so then you can say, do I want to do what it's telling me to do or do I not want to do what it's telling me to do? And so you go through the recommendations it gives you, you, and then you can say, hey, I agree. Maybe I agree to these, but I don't agree to those. And you check the boxes and then it'll say, okay, based on the ones you agree to. Now here's how much money you'll have. And it'll keep walking with you as you do what it's teaching you to do. It really is, John, as though you had myself or you in your pocket.

[D]

You don't want me there. But it's like having you or Dave or George. Somebody knows what they're talking about. But yes, it's pretty amazing.

[A]

It's pretty awesome. So if you have. If you don't know, now you know. All right, we got Eric, who's in Knoxville, Tennessee, right down the road. What's up, Eric?

[C]

Hey, guys. Thank you for taking my call.

[D]

You got it, brother. What's up?

[C]

My question is. Well, I'm getting. I'm 19 years old and I'm getting married next year.

[D]

Congratulations, man.

[C]

Thank you. And I feel like I've always been generally pretty smart with my money. I've never had to take out money for anything. I paid for my car in cash and I always grew. I grew up on 21 acres with my parents and I've saved up enough money that I was able to build my own mini home at the bott bottom of the property.

[D]

Dude, way to go, man.

[C]

I paid, paid cash for that and everything.

[D]

What?

[C]

But I'm still in school.

[D]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. You're just blowing by this. You are in a better shape than most people in the country.

[C]

Rich.

[D]

It's incredible. Dude, who? And I know that sounds silly like you got to paid for a car, you got to pay for a place to live, right? That's amazing.

[C]

Yes, sir.

[D]

Who taught you this?

[C]

My parents. And I've always. I mean, I've been watching Dave Ramsey since I was. Was 12, 13.

[D]

Lots of people watch, but very few people live it like you are, man. Well done, brother. That's cool.

[A]

So how can we help?

[C]

Well, my question is, I know later down the road, it's just, you know, 500 square feet, really small. I know later down the road, probably five, four or five years, I'm going to want to be able to buy a house. But me and my fiance, we have no form of credit coming in at all.

[A]

Good.

[C]

We've never had loans on anything.

[D]

Fantastic.

[C]

Only the only loans will even be taken into the marriage is she's about to graduate graduate nursing school. So we'll have about 15k in student loans.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And I'm hoping to have that paid off in the first year. I'm still in school, so I'm just working part time. So I'm working as a pest control technician part time.

[A]

Okay, good.

[C]

So I'm only making about 30k.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And she had the job lined up making about 75k when she graduates. So our first year of marriage take home should be about 100k.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But my question is just when I want to, you know, take that next step and actually build a house and build a family, is there something we should be doing to build credit?

[A]

No, but I do want to address that. So there's a couple areas of this I, I do want to address. I agree with John. I think that you're doing a fabulous job. But I also want to say there's no rush. So that is the. If you can embrace that, then you're going to be home free. There's a lot of times, John, this rush is like, I get married, married, then I gotta get the house, then I gotta do. It's like you're trying to like check boxes really fast. And you've got so much time, Eric, and you're in such a good position, I don't want you in such a rush that you start going back on all of the things that got you where you are today, which is you. I don't borrow money and I'm not interested in building this credit score. Right. Those are all these things that you've done and you've gotten great results. Right. You've. The fruit of that is amazing. So just remind yourself, the fruit is the proof. Right? The fruit of what you've been doing is the proof that it's been working for you. So don't go back on it. Now here's the thing. Let's talk about the no credit score thing, because you're right, when you guys get married, you're not going to have a zero credit score because you've got the student loan open here. And so until you guys get that paid off, get that account closed, and then it's going to take another six to eight months for your score to drop away or for your wife's score to drop away. Yeah, it'll be tough for you to buy a house with a low credit score. Does that make sense? So having a low credit score is not going to help you out, but once you pay it off and you have a no credit score, you will be able to do that. And we're always going to suggest John Churchill, Mortgage. That's who I have my mortgage with. John, I'm pretty sure when you had a mortgage, that's when you had who you had it.

[D]

Dude, my credit score was zero. It was non existent, None. And they just do a process called manual underwriting. And that's the way they've done it for a jillion years before they started turning us all into algorithms. And that just means I had to send them A letter from my employer. I had to send them a tax return. I had to send them proof of employment. And they, an actual human looked at an actual file file, and they're like, oh, this guy's got a great job. He has always paid his bills on time. No brainer. Here you go.

[C]

Gotcha.

[A]

Does that make sense?

[D]

Here, here's, here's. I'm glad you're asking this question. Here's what a credit score is. It is not. Or let me say what it's not. It is not an indicator of your wealth, how much wealth you have. It's not an indicator of how well you're doing financially. It simply is a dating score for how well you've dated in the past. Except it's not asking about girls you've dated. It's asking about banks you've dated. So if I gave you $5 million right now, your credit score would still be zero.

[A]

That's a shame.

[D]

It has nothing to do with your wealth. It has everything to do with. Have you borrowed money from a car dealership once and you paid them back? Okay, we'll give you some points for that. Did you one time borrow from somebody else? It's just a report card for how well you've managed debt in the past. And so far, you've been a dude that just doesn't play that game. Game. And they can't get. The system can't get its hooks in you. And so it says, well, you got to have this number, otherwise you're not a wealthy person. It's not true. It's just not true. And so you, Jade. I love what you said, brother. Listen, y' all come on with 100 was 110,000. 10 grand. So let's say after taxes, y' all are holding $60,000 next year, in the first three months, you should pay off this entire student loan and be done with it. Then y' all going to have $45,000 dollars. If y' all can eat light, you'll have no bills. Right. Or very, very minimal bills other than like a cell phone bill and a small light bill or whatever. If y' all could stay in this house for two years, y' all could literally have, I don't know, 75 to 85, 000 in cash.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

When y' all decide to move out, would that be fun to live in 500 square feet for two with two people? No, but, dude, if y' all wait, it's like we're gonna wait till we can drink legally.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

The Day. We can buy a beer in a restaurant. We are gonna go buy a house. House. Y' all will be able to put 80 grand down or more 100 grand down.

[A]

And let's not forget, I mean there's always the option to rent. Let's say you do start hating each other's face and 500 happen, that could happen. Like that could happen. And you're like, man, we got to get out of here. Just know again, pump the brakes. You don't have to buy a house tomorrow. You can always go rent a two bedroom apartment, right? And then you can still save up money like, like John is saying. So you have options. In no way are these people like painted into a corner. They got so much time. So options, so little debt.

[D]

People always ask me, what would you go tell your 18, 21 year old self? And I often say nothing. Cuz that guy was an idiot, wouldn't listen to anybody. But if I could get one message through to him, it would be, slow down. Yeah, slow down, relax.

[A]

I hear that.

[D]

And I was so amped about having a car and having a place and having. Slow down, man. Instead of saying in, like in this, in this guy's case, just put a date on the calendar. When we are 22, we're going to buy a house. Let's see how much cash we could have in the bank by 22. Let's see if we can live in a way that we have this much money by 22. It will change everything in your life moving forward. Yeah, all of the things.

[A]

100. Oh, so true. All right, Hail Mary. If you could go back and change one thing you did when you were 19.

[D]

What is it, 19?

[A]

Well, he's 19. That's why I picked 19.

[D]

Like if you could go, I'll say 21. I left and I drove an 88 Tercel Easy hatchback that was the size of a small wheelbarrow through college. So I graduated with my student loan debt and the first thing I did, went and bought the biggest truck I could find. And so I. My first year out of college, I almost doubled or tripled my debt.

[A]

Holy smokes. All right. Yeah, that's a big one.

[D]

What about you?

[A]

I straightened my hair instead of leaving it curly. Mine wasn't as big of a deal as yours.

[D]

I ruined my financial future like I.

[A]

Ruined a photo, not a relaxer.

[D]

I ruined.

[A]

Keep hanging out with us. There's more show to come.

[B]

If you've listened to me for more than five minutes, you know that being normal with your money is not A good thing because normal is broke. And I want you to be weird. That's why I love what we're doing with Fair Winds Credit Union. Our friends at Fairwinds just launched a brand new Ramsey debit card. And it says, debt is normal. Be weird right on the front. I love that because every time you swipe it, you're choosing to live differently with no credit card payments and no debt. You see, Fairwinds has been helping people like you ditch debt faster and build wealth for years. They're not trying to shove credit cards or auto loans in your face like the big banks do. And they've worked with us to create the Smart Bundle for Ramsey fans. It includes a no fee checking account, a high yield savings account to supercharge your emergency fund, and now the Ramsey debit card to help you stay focused on the baby steps. We're excited for you to try it. So check them out [e-mail] Ramsey that's Fairwinds.org Ramsey insured by the NCUA.

[A]

All right. Welcome back to the Ramsey show here in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Continuing to take calls about your life and your money. Again, again. If you were wondering how can I call that, that show Jade or John, the number is 888-825-5225. No worries. If you don't get on the line, you can leave a message and we'll still schedule your call for another time. All right. Hattie is in St. Louis, Missouri. Hattie, how can we help today?

[C]

Hi, Jade and John. My question is, my husband and I are just getting ready to purchase our first home, and I keep hearing about doing a line of credit, a 10,000, $10,000 line of credit to make a bulk payment and then putting your paychecks into that and paying all your bills out of that to build $10,000 up again.

[D]

You've got to do me a favor. Do me a huge favor. My mind. Just please delete Instagram off your phone for 60 days.

[A]

Okay?

[D]

Just get off. Just get off.

[A]

Okay?

[D]

For real, just get off.

[C]

I can do that. It's Facebook, actually, but I can do.

[D]

That, whichever one it is, for 60 days. And then I want you to. To solve for one thing and one thing only. Okay? Okay, Peace. Okay, Peace.

[A]

Ah.

[D]

I was just talking to my. One of my oldest best friends on the planet yesterday. This is an honest conversation. And I was asking him a question about, hey, if I move this here and I move this over here and I pay this here. And he said, hey, you're Doing a whole bunch of work for like 1.8%. And he said, you're the guy who tells me you solve for peace, not for arbitrage. And I was like, I'm getting off the phone now. You're right.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

I was going to move it to this account because this one's got 3.4 and since interest rates just dropped, what if I moved it over to this one? And he's like, bro, relax. And then he did a quick calculation. He's like, you're doing all this for like $70. Like, go enjoy your life. And he was right.

[C]

Yeah, I have accounting background. So I was like, well, what does his numbers actually crash? And I'm like, okay, this works kind of, but does it really? And I just wanted to hear somebody else say, it's okay. Just make double payments, you'll be just fine.

[D]

Make triple, quadruple payments. Make stupid amounts of payments. But like Jade and I will both tell you the best. Like we tell you what we do in our house.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Like we borrowed a mortgage and we put on a 15 year note and we just paid as. As aggressively as we could.

[A]

Just make extra payments and make extra payments.

[D]

Tada. How long have you been married?

[C]

23 years.

[D]

And you all are buying your first house?

[C]

Yeah, we had some health conditions and. Amazing. I just had a brain tumor in 2020, so that set us back a little bit.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

How are you now?

[C]

We pay a. I'm great. Well, I have ms, so I'm disabled from that, so I can't work. But it's only his income, so I get really creative with finances.

[A]

I love that.

[D]

Okay, so you know this as well as I do that stress is. Is a multiplier of Ms. Symptoms, right?

[C]

Yes.

[D]

What if you just solve for peace?

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[D]

If you just took out one mortgage, made one payment, and then you spent the rest of your time focusing on things you love and have fun. Fun with.

[C]

Well, yeah, exactly. We just want to have the house paid for by the time that we're both 60.

[D]

Done.

[A]

The shortest distance is. Is this still true? The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

[D]

I've heard there's somebody's. I need to go look in that I heard because my track coach always told me that.

[A]

I know, but sometimes I feel like there is a shortcut. In this case, let's pretend like that still holds because I think it does. Don't do all the loop de loop. Okay. You're really smart. I can tell. Like you said, you've got the background. Use Your power for simplicity. These are powers for good.

[D]

Or. Let me, let me say this. Can I, can I take this call? Way too deep, way deeper than you're asking it to. Yeah. Go for it. I spent my career working with folks who had special needs of some shape, form, or fashion.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And one of the biggest metas that I got from working with those people over time was a fear that they were going to be a burden on other people or that I needed to contribute in some way on top of my, My extra. What I'm doing for the, for my friend, my family, my community, whatever. And so I, I don't want to, I don't want to paint a picture.

[C]

Right.

[D]

But I don't want you sitting at home thinking I'm a net drain on this house. But if I figure out some way to escalate our mortgage payments, that then I've proven that I'm worth being here.

[C]

Right.

[D]

I want you to help simplify the chaos in the house and be an agent of peace in your home. And your husband's the luckiest man who's ever walked the earth.

[A]

I love that.

[C]

Thank you.

[D]

Is that fair?

[C]

Yeah. He'll tell you that, too.

[D]

Oh, I know he will. But you don't believe it unless you come up with a secret plan to.

[A]

Pay off the mortgage.

[D]

Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Just. Just take his word for it. You're pretty amazing. You're pretty amazing. I, I, Jade, I've heard this, I've heard this song and dance on the Internet. It's like, all right, this is what you do.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I don't know. I'm not a dumb guy. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. But, But I, I think I could figure most stuff out. And usually I'm like, you lost me at step 17. I'm just gonna make a double payment and go on with my day.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, let's, let's run this out for the folks who might be listening for the first time. John. So obviously we do, like, our countercultural take on mortgages is. First off, if there's a world where you can just stack up some money and pay cash. All day, baby. All day. Like, that's. We're gonna.

[D]

Yeah. People are like, I'm gonna take out a mortgage for tax savings. That's the. Literally the dumbest, man.

[A]

If you have the money or you live in, you know, I'm gonna pay.

[D]

$100,000 of interest so I can get $10,000 in tax savings.

[A]

Yeah. Don't do it. If you can get cash and there's somewhere in, I don't know, Kansas where you can still find a $200,000 house that you can pay, get it right, then the next level is, hey, in a world where everybody's getting 30 year mortgages, we're always going to suggest a 15 year mortgage. And at the base of that is well, you'll get a better interest rate but the other base of it is you're going to pay it off 15 years sooner. Sooner if you just pay the payment right.

[D]

Everyone says I'm gonna get a 30, I'll just, I'll just pay it like it's a 15. But you won't, you won't.

[A]

There's always going to be something that pops up instead. And so we're like, hey, set it for, set the dial for like you can't screw this up. So 15 years, what we were going to suggest. And even if you never make an extra mortgage payment, you're still paying it off 15 years earlier, which is giving you another 15 years that you can invest more to build wealth, right? For your legacy for retirement. You know, you, to buy that restaurant, you want to buy whatever that thing is. So 15 years, what we're talking about now we are always saying hey, this, the, the, the payoff of the mortgage lies in baby step six. So it's after you've paid off your debt, it's after you've saved up an emergency fund, it's, you've been, you've been investing 15% of your income. All the while you've put a little bit aside for your kids college. And now after all that's kind of rolling now we're saying, hey, you know, maybe I have a little extra change I can throw over to this mortgage. I make the payment and maybe I half payment or maybe twice a year I double the payment, whatever that rhythm looks like it's just about you being intentional. You don't have to get intense about it, but just being intentional about saying I'm going to put extra money on my mortgage. And there's some really crazy arithmetic out there that if you just make one extra payment a year, like the quickness.

[D]

Take seven years off a 30 year.

[A]

Mortgage or something, it doesn't take a whole lot in order to really shave that 15 years down and draw on, on this show we find that if people follow the baby steps, no matter what point you lock in, if you actually lock into the baby steps, most people have their mortgage paid off in like 10 to 12, like it's like yeah.

[D]

So and by the way, people always ask, hey, is it okay if we get hyper intentional about we've had the mortgage for a while.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

If you got two or three years left on it and you say we're going to go to baby step one, try to hoof it and you and your and your spouse lock on arms. Go knock it out.

[A]

Go do it.

[D]

Get it done.

[A]

Yeah. And then on the flip side of that, if you're like, and you're like, hey, you know, I, I, I, all my life I had to fight and I finally just got out of debt and I'm not ready to put double payments on. That's also your prerogative and nobody's going to be mad at you. The point is you started in the best possible spot which is a 15 year mortgage that was no more than 25% of your take home pay. And I understand that that is a tall order and today's world and today's day and time, but it's still possible. For way too long I struggled with sleep and woke up groggy after tossing and turning all night. But now I look forward to bedtime and I wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed thanks to Casper, a company that's been perfecting better sleep for over a decade. Using durable, high quality materials that actually last my whole family now sleeps on Casper mattresses. Yes, even the dogs have their own Casper dog bed. To no one's surprise, and it's not just one man's opinion. Casper customers keep their mattresses for years and 4 out of 5 customers recommend them to friends. And with free delivery and 100 night trial, Casper is no gimmicks. A mattress you can trust backed by quality that lasts. So go to Casper.com Ramsey and use promo code Ramsey to receive 25% off all mattress off everything else with code Ramsey. That's Casper.com Ramsey exclusions apply. All right, we're going to go back to the phone lines. But before we do, I didn't say who was hosting today. I probably should. It's you and it's me, John and Jade. John and Jade. So now you know, just in case you were wondering, John, you're kind of like on the the mental wellness tip for anybody who doesn't know you're everywhere. So everybody knows.

[D]

No, they don't.

[A]

I, I believe that they do. And then I am your money expert for today. So that's how this thing works. Two people, two chairs. All right, let's go to Nicole in Denver, Colorado. What's Up.

[C]

Nicole, hi. Thanks for taking my call. My husband and I just got married and we both want to have children, but now we have to adopt or preferably get a surrogate. We have some debt, we have some savings and my husband is about to start a business. So we really want to prioritize this because of our ages and factoring us in, like us needing some extended time to have kids. And both of these options are expensive.

[A]

Mm.

[C]

My question is how do we fit a baby into the baby steps?

[A]

Oh, I love this question. How old are you by the way?

[C]

I'm 30, he's 34.

[A]

Okay. So if you were calling in and you were like, hey, we're thinking we're going to get pregnant the old fashioned way, I would have just said, yeah, tomorrow, whenever you're ready. Right. I'm never going to tell somebody they have to, you know, wait till they're out of debt to have a baby. I'm never going to say you have to have this financial echelon accomplished accomplish before you can start a family. I would never tell you that. Now it is your own personal choice. I can tell you, my husband and I, we were like, ah, we're going to pay off our debt, then we're going to start a family. That was personal choice. I don't think anybody else has to make that choice. But in your case, it doesn't change my answer, but there are some considerations because in your case, yeah, it's gonna cost a pretty penny. How much does it cost to do surrogacy? In the 2025 work world?

[C]

There's a huge range.

[D]

50 to 100 grand.

[A]

Huh.

[C]

Some more than double it. 90 to 200,000. Agency fees, surrogacy compensation, medical expenses. Might need multiple rounds of ivf. And then for adoption, if you're working with an agency, somewhere between 30 and 60,000. So I mean the pragmatic answer is adopt instead of do a surrogate. But I just, I don't know how to even start saving giving up for this.

[A]

Okay, what's your income?

[C]

We go, what's your income? Right now I'm in school, I'm a student for another six months. I have a part time job. I earn about $2500 a month. My husband gets about $7000 a month.

[A]

Okay, good.

[C]

And a third of that is an untaxed disability for being a veteran.

[D]

So I, I guess and Jade push back on me here. Adopted kids, one of the most amazing things, by the way, that 30 to 50 of the private, private adoption, there's tax rebates, there's. There's local support, sometimes there's business support. So I would check into all of those different things. The last buddy of mine that did this, I sat down with him. He said at the end of the day, they were out of pocket, like 11,000 bucks.

[A]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[D]

And you can.

[C]

Oh, that's good to know.

[D]

You can do. But that was after tax breaks and, and dude, who knows what tax looks, cuts and breaks look like now, Whether they're bigger or smaller, who knows? But it's worth to find all that out. And there was some upfront costs that he got reimbursed for, etc, but that's just, that's just a one buddy of mine, so I'm a huge fan of it. I, I think the challenge for me is if you get pregnant and had a kid and you had health insurance or you didn't have health insurance, you're. There's a, there's not, I won't say fixed cost because there's medical conditions, there's nicu, there's all kinds of other things that can happen, but inside of a bell curve, often there's a $5,000 deductible or a $10,000 deductible or a, hey, we want to cash pay this thing, and this is what it's going to cost. When you get into 90 to $200,000, that, to me, feels like we have to do some significant planning because that is, that's, I mean, that is a, that's a, that's a graduate degree or that's a home in certain places. Right? That's a huge chunk of money. And I would feel irresponsible to say, yep, it doesn't matter. You're starting a family. Just go let it rip. Because that's a ton of debt to carry into.

[C]

And on top of your student loans, you guys, is to. If we're doing, you know, highest cost scenario, if we do do surrogacy, just help me out. How do I even start this process? It might not be that expensive. But worst case.

[D]

Well, it's a math problem, right?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's a math problem. And I'm, I'm gonna make it super clear. I would never, never recommend any kind of debt for this. I mean, you know, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. But Jay didn't tell you to go into debt for, for a family because there's a risk of here, right? There's no guarantee on any end of the spectrum. And to John's Point when you get into numbers like 200,000. A hundred thousand, that is insult on top of injury if this doesn't go the way that we want. Right. And sometimes in life, things don't go the way we want, although I'm that it does for you. So you. You see what I'm saying? Right. I just want you to. I don't have to explain the risk to you.

[D]

Well, and there's the other side of it is again, I've got a close friend who had a really traumatic pregnancy and there was NICU stays and ICU stays and God knows what those bills are going to end up being.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And you deal with those as they come. This is one where we planing out the door. We know this is going to be 100 grand or 150 grand.

[A]

So real steps like let's pretend pay 50,000 is what we need. That's kind of somewhere in the middle of the adoption realm there. And so, yeah, I would treat it like, in many ways, I would treat it like the debt snowball, right? You're paying minimum payments on all your normal debt, but all the extra is going to your smallest debt. In this case, it's this adoption bill. So after all your minimums are met, now we're using our margin to stack up $50,000 as quickly as possible. And what I would do is, I would say, okay, I'm plugged. I'm starting up my every dollar budget. I've got everything in here, and I'm seeing, here's the margin that we have every single month. So let's pretend it's $3,000. I got $3,000 margin that's going. And I'm going to keep stacking that up until I hit 50k, right? Run those numbers out, see how long it's going to take. And at fitting point, you go, hey, that's longer than I want. What can we do to make that go faster? Income is. Income is the issue. So we say, okay, can we get extra jobs? Can somebody drive Uber? Can somebody pick up extra shifts? That sort of thing. So. So in that way, you can kind of control it, but at the same time, you'll probably hit a point where it's like, this is as fast as we can go. And you just kind of have to ride that train until it's done.

[C]

I love it. All right, thank you so much.

[A]

Yeah. Really great call. Thanks for the call. That's. You know, John, that's. I actually got that call a couple of days ago. And it's true, you know, When Sam and I were in debt, we had almost half a million dollars of debt. We were young, young, 23 years old. And I, I, I remember thinking I'd rather wait. And plus, I wasn't sure if I want a family yet anyway, so I was like, let's just wait. He wanted to wait because it was just eating our lunch.

[D]

Literally, it was chaos and anxiousness to own your house.

[A]

Yeah. And so for us, there was. We had just made the decision and said, hey, we're going to clean up this mess, and then we'll feel great about, you know, having a family. Plus, you know, know. And again, this is. I'm not saying anybody else has to make this choice, but I kind of had this clear picture of this is the life I want to be able to provide. And so that was kind of like a guiding light for us. I was like, I don't want to feel like I have to work. I want to feel like I'm working because I want to work if I'm not going to stay home with these kids. Like, I wanted as many options, not just for us, but for the kids, too. So that was our choice. And yeah, I ended up having kids later in life. That was a choice we made.

[D]

But I remember the years, years my wife and I were trying to have kids, and it wasn't happening. And then I sat down with somebody, we went to the meeting about adoption and private versus public and all those things. And I remember my, my mind shifting to, I'm owed this. I deserve this.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And it gave, it was giving me a pass. I'm just gonna go borrow on whatever this costs because I, I want a family. And it was this. I, like, I remember thinking, do I want to add. Cause this is when I still owed a jillion dollars. Do I want to add that burden to a guy that's already pretty spun out because of all this money I'm carrying or that I owe people.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Right. And I remember very much feeling, though, that, like, math doesn't apply to me here. This hurts. And I can, I want to have a family, and I want to be able to, like, give a kid a family. Like, all that stuff was so good and. Right. And yet math doesn't care. It's still, it's. It's going to be. You're going have $200,000 mortgage on, on, on an adoption.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Or on a surrogacy or whatever. And so there is something about. I would never tell somebody, don't have kids if you owe money. Right. Especially if you Got a traditional health insurance, yada, yada, yada.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[D]

But if you're going to go make a 30, 40, $50,000, you can put that much money on the table, I want you holding that check because otherwise you are setting yourself up for all kind of additional chaos in addition to having the kid and all the heartbreak and joy and all that comes with that.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Finally, mortgage rates have dropped. And you know what that means. People who've been sitting on the sidelines are about to jump back in to the housing market. So if you've been waiting to buy, this could be your window. But you got to be prepared and do it the Ramsey way. You need to contact Churchill Mortgage. Their home buyer Edge program gives you peace of mind. In a wild market, you can cap your rate for 90 days. So if rates go up, you're protected. If rates go down, Churchill will drop yours automatically. And get this, Churchill will even back your offer with a $10,000 seller guarantee. So if your loan for falls through due to financing, the seller still gets paid. That's how confident Churchill is. Plus, when you shop as a Churchill certified home buyer, it's stronger than pre approval. It makes you look like a cash buyer, which makes your offer rise to the top. So don't let this moment pass you by. Get ready now. Go to Churchill Mortgage.com to get started today. That's ChurchillMortgage.com this is a paid advertisement.

[D]

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[A]

All right, you're listening to the Ramsey Show. Hey, don't just set goals in 2026. I want you to actually learn how to reach them for once in your life. And we're going to help you do that. The 2026 Ramsey goal planner is here, guys. And it's packed with monthly content from myself, from Rachel Cruz, from Dr. John DeLoney sitting right next to me. And it's all there to help you stay on track with your money, with your faith, with your relationships, all of it. And finally, for the first time, you can actually follow through on your goals. It's so helpful. Now I'm going to tell you the real deal. Every single year, we sell out of these.

[D]

All right, so gone. Listen, can't be that many left.

[A]

There can't be. So the point is, this is not a sales pitch.

[D]

This is like them sitting, being like, hey, we have like, almost like they cut off product benefit. Nobody in the building can buy.

[A]

Yeah, we can't.

[D]

There's only a few left and it's just for, just for, just for our fans.

[A]

The only way I'll get one is if one of you send me yours. Cuz I didn't even get one. But the point is they might be already gone. So if you were thinking of getting one, go on there now and make sure you can get one. They're 49.97@ramsey solutions.com store. Or if you're watching on YouTube or the podcast, you can just click the link in the description. Now I'm going to tell you straight up, I was making a joke before. I always get a couple of these and I send them as gifts. It's on my gift list every year to send other people and everybody loves it because it's so helpful. And so, yeah, get involved. All right, next we have sue from Chicago, Illinois, Chi Town. What's up? What's going on? Sue?

[C]

Hi. Thank you guys so much for taking my call. I'm blessed to be able to speak to you guys and to listen to you guys every single day.

[D]

Thank you so much. What's up?

[C]

I'm. I'm stuck. I'm 54 years old and married with a child. And I just found out that my husband no longer has savings, no longer has the college account for our child because he's gambling. And there's more infidelity I just found out about. So there's that. I just started a job, thank goodness, because I kind of. I had a feeling like something was up and my job will be able to pay in the future for the success that I want with our family. But I'm kind of at a T section.

[D]

The big question here is, are you. Do you want to stay in this marriage?

[C]

No. And I hate saying that. We had an issue before where things were questionable and he said he wanted to reconcile. And this was years ago and I had a huge cancer scare. I am cancer free. It's great. It's wonderful. He hid it really well. Since then, I don't feel for myself, my. For my peace and my daughter's peace moving on in her life that it's safe to stay in this marriage.

[D]

So I think answering. Well, there's two. Two things. One is you are right to be fearful about if there's sexual infidelity. You're right to be worried about the betrayal, worried about your health, worried about like the values of your marriage being swiped out from Underneath you.

[B]

Right?

[D]

But the financial infidelity, you waking up one day and realizing y' all have no safety net, that's a real harrowing fear also. And so whether you choose to stay in this marriage and heal it or. And. And. And y' all have to rebuild this thing from the ground up because it doesn't exist anymore as it was. You still have to take the steps to go open your checking account and deposit money in your account and begin to have some sort of financial safety because this person is very unsafe and very reckless.

[C]

Yeah, I. I did that with my new job.

[D]

Good.

[C]

Yeah. So. But that now has been paying for groceries.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And school fees. And I don't. I. Pennies, Pennies. Putting it aside could possibly, you know, eventually get a down payment for that.

[D]

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[B]

What?

[D]

You're doing a very natural thing, but I want to slow you down. You're solving for seven steps down the road. I need you to solve for step one, which is. Is I need to get me and my daughter into a safe place.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Exhale. Next step.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

I want us to make sure we have the apartment that we've moved into or that he's moved into. Can we afford this house and we have to sell it. Do I have an. Do I have attorney's fees?

[C]

We rent.

[D]

Okay?

[C]

Rent. We don't even have a house.

[D]

Okay, so am I on that lease? So if I go get an apartment, a one bedroom apartment for me and my daughter for the next 18 months, because that's what I can afford right now. Now am I on that lease? And is he going to quit paying? And then it's going to blow up my world. Right? So it's getting those very basic things. Four walls. Do I have a place to live? Do I got food? Do I have utilities? I have water and heat. And do I have transportation to get to and from my job? Okay, that's what we're solving for right now. You'll solve for. What's my retirement going to be? What's a pension? All of that is a problem for future you.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Thank you.

[D]

And anxiety is taking future stuff. Stuff and dragging it into the present and trying to solve it in the present. Don't do that. You've got enough trouble right now. As the. As. As you experience and as the Bible says, you got enough trouble today. Let's deal with today. If you are done with this marriage, I want you to push pause and call an attorney.

[C]

Okay?

[D]

Okay. And they will guide you. They'll have not thousands, but A list of questions, thoughts, ideas, and they will walk you through, step by step. Step. And you won't feel so alone. If you want to try to save this marriage and reconcile, you got to call a therapist today. A licensed therapist who will walk with you. It's just too much. Your whole world exploded, right?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it did. It really did. And I'm. I'm more worried about my daughter.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

How old is your daughter?

[C]

She's a junior in high school.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But she's now been. Unfortunately, it's blown up in her face. And she's very aware of everything that has happened.

[D]

Let me. Let me tell you the greatest gift you can give her. Take her out to a diner. In fact, tell her we're skipping school this morning. Take her out to a diner so she'll know it's a special moment. And I want you to look her in the eye and say, I'm not going to talk bad about your dad. I'm not going to run him down. You're not going to talk crap. You're not going to swear at about him because that's her dad, too. And she knows in her body half of her is him. So if he sucks and half of her. Right. But I'm going to tell you the truth. I'm going to tell you I'm scared. I'm going to tell you I'm heartbroken. And I. Your mom. And working to keep you and me safe. And so you're going to give her this gift. You're going to a. Give her the gift that she's not crazy. Because a lot of parents try to just say, I want the kids to know. I don't want them to. I want to hide my. My tears. I want to hide everything. And what it does is it makes your kids feel nuts because their insides are melting. So it's important for her to see. Oh, Mom's a person, too. If she said I have perm. To be sad.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I've never hidden anything for her. Even when I got the cancer.

[D]

Good, good, good.

[C]

Pink polka dots on my head when Amazing. When it was growing back. Because that's what she said. What would happen when my hair grew back.

[D]

And the next plan. The next important thing for her is to know. My mom has a plan. I have a job. I have my own checking account. I'm going to. We're gonna. It's. Your college plans may have completely changed, but I'm gonna be right next to you, walking with you. Right. And it's letting her know you're not on your own and her job isn't to you take of care care of you. Okay. Okay.

[C]

100%.

[D]

That's a, that's. That will be a blessing to her for you to, to say I'm hurting. And here's my plan.

[C]

Thank you.

[D]

Okay. I would also recommend this. And this is like I don't feel like I want you to give you another thing to worry about. I want you to go pull your credit report from all three credit bureaus today.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

And I want you to freeze your credit.

[C]

Well, it is.

[D]

Okay. Good. Good, good, good. You want to say that as soon.

[C]

As I found out.

[D]

Excellent. Excellent.

[A]

That's excellent.

[D]

What's your husband doing right now? Is he running? Hiding? Is he saying here, How'd you find out?

[C]

I just, well, I started, I got the Ramsey become a millionaire and so I just started going, hey, can we go over the bills? Because I want to get put all this together and make a budget. I want to make a plan. And he started listing off these bills. I'm like, well, what bill is this? What bills? He goes, oh, it's a loan. It's a loan. I go, it's a loan for what? It's a loan for what? And he goes, well, I have a lifestyle to keep up with. And I'm like, I, I don't understand. Like he should be getting. He's retired and has now a part time job because, you know, and it, it.

[D]

So it just exploded.

[C]

Hey, it just exploded. Yeah.

[D]

Well, thank you for trusting us with the call. Stay on the line. We're going to hook you up with every dollar. It's the best budgeting app in the world. We're also going to hook you up with Financial Peace University. So you and your daughter, if you want y' all can watch these lessons together. And I want you to begin using this app for you make a budget for you so you know where every dollar is going. Because right now every dollar is precious. And if it's time to call an attorney, go call one. If it's time to call a therapist, go call one.

[A]

All right. Our question of the day is sponsored by Yrefi. If other lenders won't help with defaulted private studio student loans, then why refi might be right for you. They offer fixed rate solutions that fit real life. Find out more@y refi.com Ramsey that's the letter y r e f y.com Ramsey Remember, it's not available in all states.

[D]

All right, this question is a good one. I'm have to process this out loud.

[A]

All right, read it.

[D]

And it's funny because I've been wrestling with something about this.

[A]

Oh, really? Okay, I'm excited then.

[D]

Today's question comes from Gabriel from California. California. Gabriel writes, I need advice on whether to take on commission work for a very popular video game. I would get paid to make 3D digital models for game servers who have the aesthetic that I'm trained in. I developed these skills over the past two years. However, here's my dilemma. I stopped playing video games several months ago due to a conviction to stop playing them and just grow up. I've been benefiting from the time away from them to connect with friends, read my Bible, and attend church activities. I've actually lost a desire to play video games. Video games. But I could make a ton of money with this side hustle. Should I take the opportunity or walk away? Because I'm afraid I'll be pulled back into that world. So here's. Here's where this question is with me. I watch social media, like, melting us culturally, and yet every day I post on it twice a day. Right.

[A]

You're in my brain right now.

[D]

I live in it. And so I've had this weird tension with it. And the piece I've come to is if it's a cesspool, if, if, if it's constantly sending people negative negativity, things that way to divide people up. And whatever I will, I can tell myself I'm going to be someone who puts good out into that world.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And so that's. That's where I've landed right now. But I do rest with it. Right. If they came in and said, hey, social media is over. It doesn't exist anymore. That part of our business is over. We're gonna do something else. I would exhale. It would cost me a lot. Right.

[A]

Understood. Yeah.

[D]

But I would exhale. And so there's a tension there. So this is a little bit different because he's not making his. He's not able to put positivity out into a negative environment. He's going to literally be participating in it. Right. So part of me.

[A]

I don't know.

[D]

What do you think?

[A]

I think we can look at this from two arguments. He's. I don't think he's created like a good versus bad argument. Like, video games are bad, therefore I'm not playing them anymore.

[D]

He's like, I found relief being out of that world.

[A]

Yeah. I think he found it. More of, there's better things I could be doing with my time. This is Kind of a drain on me, so I'm not going to do it. So for him, I think it was like, productive versus not productive. Not necessarily good versus bad. Like, if he had said, hey, they're.

[D]

Evil, so I quit them, right?

[A]

Like, I got out of video games because the chat's crazy and it's not good for kids and people. It's dangerous and like, sex trade, all these things. Like, if he had said that argument, I would have been like, dude, it's a moral thing for you. You have to walk away. But since it's more of a personal productivity thing, I would say any. I would. I would hold it more loosely. But at the end of the day, I would still say anything that feels like a violation of personal integrity for you, you do have to walk away from. However, I would say this doesn't really feel like a personal integrity thing. It feels more like you're getting older and you're like, I can't spend time on video games, so I'm not gonna.

[D]

And he's got his lived experience where he spent too much time for too many years on him. But also. And I've. I've. I've been a. I mean, I've run my mouth about video games for a long time, but I've got buddies who play with their kids. I got buddies who play with kids in college, and it keeps them connected and they have fun and they talk trash and those little things, like, it's. So it's fun for them, but then they set it down and they go back to their. To their regular lives. Right? And so, yeah, it comes down to a conviction at the end of the day. Yeah, it almost feels like. I don't know if this is a good analogy either. Somebody who has struggled with alcohol gets an amazing opportunity to make a bunch of money to being a bartender. And that's a bad idea. It. It could be. Right. But if someone says, dude, I don't have any for six months, it could pay off everything. Say, I wouldn't go back in the bar.

[A]

Well, no, because he struggled with it. It was an addiction. I don't think that's a good analogy, because 1.

[D]

But he's saying, I don't want to be pulled back into that world.

[A]

I think that I don't know much about making video games. So I think it has more to do, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not a gamer. I think it has more to do with him than the outsider, because I don't know if you're making. If you're making models for this, if you actually have to like be in the game and kind of like play.

[D]

The game and talk about the game.

[A]

Yeah. So if he has to be in that world in order. Order to create for it, I think that's where more where his struggle is versus I don't want other people playing these games.

[D]

I don't want other people because it's a moral conviction.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So Gabriel, I, I would tell Gabriel, if he was sitting here and thanks to everybody letting us think that out loud.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[D]

I would tell Gabriel, no amount of money is worth your personal peace and your personal integrity.

[A]

Yep.

[D]

And so if this is a matter of. I feel like this is an integrity for me, but I could make some good money in the short term, I would say walk away.

[A]

Yeah, right. There's other ways you can make money.

[D]

And the other side of it is if you have just found peace, like, man, I love doing other things of my time and good on anyone who wants to play games. It's not for me anymore. And you can go back into that world and make some quick money over six months. Knock your lights out. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's. Yeah, I was just reading back over the question. I'm with you. If you feel like it's, it's pulling you back, don't do it. There's other ways to make money and there's always going to be be temptations.

[D]

And we get this call from folks who listen to the Ramsey show. They, they buy into the message, they live it their own life, but they sell whole life insurance policy or they work at a, at a, at one of the big, the giant banks who take advantage of people. So, and they are faced with this moral dilemma.

[A]

But I get, again, I think that's more of like the good versus bad argument because we're saying, hey, debt, it. It is truly like out to get you. Like it truly is out there to try to scam you, try to try to trap you. All those things. This didn't feel like he didn't mention anything. Now don't get me wrong, I have my own views of video games. I don't want to project that onto him. But if you're a person who, if, if Gabriel, if you're listening to this, if you do feel like, hey, I just think video games inherently, they're trying to track people. The, the algorithm is there to keep you stuck, keep you locked in. I just don't agree with that. Like, if you do have Moral stake in it. I 100% wouldn't do it. Yeah, because then you're compromising your own personal integrity. And that's a good question.

[D]

It is a good question. And I. I challenge everybody in their life. If your day job at some level conflicts with what you know to be true or what you feel is to be right or true, it's easy to bomb the job to. But there's something about taking personal ownership and saying, I can't be a part of this anymore, or I'm gonna. The building on fire. I'm being asked to steal money. But I'm going to start looking for a way to transition out of this job into something else. I'm going to turn down this opportunity. And both of us have gotten opportunities to go speak at a place, and we're just like, you know, I'm going to sit this one out. Like, everyone has to make those kind of choices.

[A]

Right.

[D]

But the fact, Gabriel, that you're even asking this question is pretty noble. Good for you.

[A]

I think so.

[D]

Because I think it's so easy to just run for the money, whatever.

[A]

Know what you're. Yes. You have to. You have to have your personal moral components, compass, and that sometimes can look different from other people. It's kind of like going back to the drinking thing that you said. Some people go to a party, they're like, hey, alcohol is just not for me. I don't like who I am when I have a drink. Right. And then the other person could sit right next to you. And there's no moral dilemma. They're not going to act a fool. They're just going to have one or two drinks, go about their business, and it's fine. Right. So different things affect different ways.

[D]

If I drink, I don't feel good the next day.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

I think this is wrong. I think nobody should be doing this. Right. But whatever you bring to it, live it out everywhere.

[A]

Live it out everywhere. And that's. That's the good word. Oh, good. I. I like that one. That was a good one. All right, since we just took a question that was verbal, me reading, somebody wrote it in. Let's do another one from social.

[D]

All the questions are verbal.

[A]

No, I know. That was a hard. That was not the right way to say it. Okay, let's do this one. This is sue from TikTok Talk. She says, why does canceling a rarely used card affect someone's credit rating? Okay, so we tell John. We tell people, john, it's time for you to not only pay off your debt but you need to cancel it. You need to close the account and be done with it, not just paid off. And so she's saying, yeah, if you cancel this card, your. Your credit score initially is going to go down. That's true. And that's okay. It's one of the factors that they use to measure your credit score. Score. Right. It's how many lines of credit do you have open, how many, how long have you had it open? What percentage of it are you using? All of that affects your credit score. And so when you do something that affects one of those, you know, ticks in the algorithm. Yeah, it's going to ding you. But in the long run, if you just close them all and pay them all off, your score is going to roll to zero and you're going to be a person who has a zero credit score. And that's ultimately what we want. Stick around. There's more the Ramsey show coming up. Hey, you guys, Rachel Cruz here. Look, I know you want to do.

[C]

Better with money, but let's be honest.

[A]

Life seems to be getting more and more expensive, and lately you hardly have any breathing room in your budget to do anything but cover that.

[C]

The basics.

[A]

You work way too hard to feel broke.

[D]

Our EveryDollar budget app can help you.

[A]

Free up margin fast. Most people find an average of $3015 in their first 15 minutes of using the app. Think about it. That's thousands of dollars just sitting right there in your budget waiting for a job to do. With EveryDollar, you'll find the margin and the motivation you need to start making real progress fast with your money. Start for free today. Download the EveryDollar app for free today. Hey, welcome back to the Ramsey Show. We're here in the Fairwind Credit Union studio taking calls about your life and your money like we always do. At this time, we got Tom in Minneapolis, Minnesota. What's going on, Tom?

[C]

Hi, John and Jade. Thanks for taking my call. I got a question around term life insurance. I'm 65, and over the years when we had. We have four children. Over the years, we. I would buy, like, life insurance, but term life insurance. And then it was, you know, at one time, I probably had a million dollars. I'm down to. Down to one last policy of $250,000.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

There's seven years left and the annual payments, only 700, I think $11 a year.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And this question, whether or not I should keep it because I really don't need it, and it's just not, you know, it's Just my wife and I today.

[A]

So, I mean. Yeah, you're right. The point is that we get to the point where we can kind of self insure, where that nest egg is big enough to where if something happened to you, your wife would be okay. And it sounds like you have that.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, no debt and million, you know, multiple millions of dollars put away. Seven or eight million dollars.

[D]

You're saying that the policy runs out in seven years?

[C]

It does. In 32. It's done it. But it's only seven hours a year. Like it's $250,000. $250,000 and I got to change our life?

[D]

No, no, but neither is, neither is 70 bucks a month, either or 70 bucks bucks a year.

[C]

Right, Right.

[A]

There's no right or wrong answer on this. If you want to keep it, you can keep it. Because like you said, the 711 a year is not changing your life. The $250,000 is not saving your life. I would ask your wife, how does she feel about it? Hey, do you want this extra $250,000 coverage? Does it give you any extra level of peace? For me, I could maybe let it go and just have that conversation. I'm. If it were me, I'd probably be like, just keep it around, let it play out. But like I said, there's no right or wrong.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So that's it. I just, I know she'd say, you know, she's always had her trust in my, my management obviously pay off and she can't believe we're in a place that we're in today. So she'd just say, hey, I don't really care.

[D]

Well, dude, let me be the first to tell you today. Well done, brother. That's awesome.

[A]

Really good.

[D]

Like, the thought that you could pass away tomorrow and your wife's gonna be okay, that to me is, is the greatest. I don't know, just as a, as a husband, that's the greatest feeling I could have that if I, if I cashed out tomorrow, my wife and my kids would be okay. That gives me a lot of peace.

[B]

Call.

[D]

Hey, do me a favor. Call our friends at Xander. What I know about those dudes is they will tell you the truth and they won't take money from you. That they won't, they won't try to bilk you for money. They'll be honest with you and they'd be a great person to run this policy by and just cash, just run through the numbers for you and there it. Whether it would Save you if you just quit paying on if you can't. Like they're going to answer all those specific insurance questions. So call them. They've. They've. The ones who did my life insurance policy.

[A]

Me too. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about life insurance for new, new listeners who are like, what the heck are they talking about? So here we are. We're always going to suggest term life insurance. That's what I carry, that's what John carries. And you can get it on a, you know, a 15 year level term, a 20 year level term. And basically the term is just what it says. You are covered during that term of years. And the level term means the price is not changing. But the point of life insurance is for anybody who depend on your income. So for instance, I work at my, in my home and my husband works. But if I were to pass away, that's a big chunk of income that's gone. And so my family has a dependency on that. Right. And same thing with Sam. If Sam were to pass away, we have a dependency on his income. So we suggest you get 10 to 12 times your income, which a lot of people think, oh my gosh, that's a lot of money. Like that could be in the millions. That's a lot of money. And it is. But it's about survivorship. It's about the people who are, like I said, dependent on your income long term. They don't just need, you know, 30,000 bucks. They need to be able to continue living until their life situation changes. Or maybe you're a stay at home mom, right? And you've been staying at home. If you're the spouse in that situation, you want to make sure this mom can continue to stay home. So you need a nice nest egg there. That's what it's there for. I won't get into the whole whole life thing. I feel like that's a different call, a different time for a different day. But I do want to say term life insurance is a way that you love your family. Well, now I know, I hear it now, John. People are like, oh, I have insurance through my job.

[D]

No, you got 10,000 bucks, dude, you have barely enough to cover the cost of a coffin these days.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

That's it. If that anymore.

[A]

That's right, that's. That could barely cover your funeral. And that's it. So you need more. And trust me, it's not expensive. Like this guy said, he's paying $711 a year. That's nothing like like biscuits, right? Yeah. Yeah. So get it done. It's so easy. They'll come to your house and do the medical, you know, they'll draw your blood at your house. It's easy. And then they'll set your term and you'll be set. So that's how this works.

[D]

If you're wondering this too. My wife has a part time job but the vast majority of the income is mine. I have a policy on her. It's not near as big as mine.

[A]

Three to four times.

[D]

But if she was to pass away to tomorrow, if you've listened to the show for five minutes, you know that my life would be in shambles.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

Right. I would have to hire some support and help.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

There'd be plane tickets, there would be parents coming and going. There would be, I need help with, I, my whole life would fall apart. So I'd need to hire folks to come back, fill that and that money would add up and add up especially when I'm in a season of grief and my income would drop because I'm on commission. Right. So all that say is I got a policy on her. It's not again, not near the size of mine is, but I do have one out on her because there's going to be real cost associated to me trying to figure out how to manage my life and my kids life with her gone.

[A]

That's such a good point. Yeah. When you have a stay at home spouse or a spouse that maybe works part time or whatever the case, there's still a huge monetary value on what it takes to if you're the, the home CEO. Right. So you're doing all the shopping and you're planning all the meals and you're taking the kids to school and you're picking the kids up. Well, who would, who would do that if that person left? Do you have to hire a nanny? Would you have to have a babysitter at the house? You know, six hours a day. That is all cost. So please, please, please, term life insurance is what we're looking for. And what we were talking about earlier with Tom is the idea is that you don't have to pay a premium forever.

[D]

So he's got millions of dollars.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

He's now insured.

[A]

He's insured, his wife's insured. And that means that whatever pops up, he's got the money that he can carry that risk. Now the point of insurance is to transfer risk when we can't afford it. Right. And so when you're Walking through the bank, baby steps. You can't, you can't carry that risk, so let the insurance company carry it. But the hope is that you get to a point, you keep walking through the baby steps where you've got a couple of million dollars stacked up or whatever your nest egg is stacked up to, where when you hit a certain point, hey, if somebody passes away, there's enough money on that nest egg that they can draw from, they can cut or, you know, if something happens, my medical expenses will be covered as well. Like all that stuff is there. So that's how this works. It's just a really good thing to think about from time to time. We get calls all the time. John of. And it's sad when someone passes away. There was no life insurance, no will, and everything is just in a tailspin.

[D]

I've, I've mentioned this several times over the years on this show, but a couple of times I've. I. When I was doing crisis work, I responded to calls where a husband had passed away. And there's a, there's just. I don't know how to describe it other than there's a very particular, particular look when a spouse just lost her husband. And she looks. And I remember one person in particular said, I have to go to work on Monday. We don't have anything. And it was the most harrowing. It's like, what do you mean? Like, they don't have any money, we don't have any insurance. We have nothing.

[A]

You gotta figure out.

[D]

And I gotta figure, I gotta go, I have to get a job now. On Monday, we'd have no, we had no kid. I mean, it was just such a harrowing conversation. And then the other, other, I remember one other person in particular said, I don't, I don't know what to do. I don't know where anything is. I don't know if there's a will, where it is, the accounts. I don't know if you have life insurance policy. It was just a zoo. And I remember being like, man, like me and my wife. That's a big deal for us is where's the forms, where's the passwords, where's everything? Because it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

And I want, I want that to be the last thing she worries about is what do we have and where.

[A]

Term life insurance, a will, making sure your spouse knows where all the documents are.

[B]

Many of you listen to the Ramsey show because you're sick and tired of getting nowhere with Your money. You work too hard to live paycheck to paycheck with no money in the bank. But here's the deal. Just listening to the show won't change that. If you want different results, you have to do something different. We've helped millions of people save money, ditch debt and build wealth. And you can too. But you got to have a game plan. And that begins with our get started assessment. Go to ramseysolutions.com start now. Take the free quiz and get your free step by step action action plan. If you've had it with money stress and are ready to take control of your money for good, go to ramseysolutions.com start now.

[A]

You know, last segment, we were just talking about the importance of term life insurance. We were saying wills, making sure your family knows where all the important documents are. And we actually have an online wills quiz because you might have been listening to that saying, hey, Jade, I don't know, do I? I'm 18, do I need a will or I'm 21 and single. Do I need a will or, you know, I've been married 50 years. My wife already knows what we're doing. Do I need a will? You need to take the wills quiz is what I'm telling you. Okay, so here are the top questions people, people have about online wills. Let's talk about number one. They ask how do I know if I need a trust or if my estate is too complicated for an online will? Okay, so that's a great question. So the answer there is if your estate is worth less than 1 million, then getting a will online is probably a really great option for you. So if you're worth less than a million, yeah, probably online will is good. Next one is number two, Jade, what do I need to start my will online? All right. Making a will online or not involves a couple of big decisions. Number one, you need to know, like who's going to get my stuff? You need to know who do you want to take care of your minor children, if you have children? Because that's going to be all part of the will. And you need to decide who do you want to make decisions if you are in some way incapacitated? Now I'm going to tell you right now, John, when Sam and I made our will, you kind of have to make an event out of this because it's not the most fun conversations to have. And the truth is after a long time day of work to come home and talk about what will happen if you're incapacitated. It's not necessarily fun, but, hey, pizza and wine helps a lot of things.

[D]

I remember I gave my wife, like, this big, long, like, here's how I want my funeral to go. And she was like, hey, I'm not doing chores for you. Your. Your funeral will be as I plan it. And I'm like, but I wrote it down and it's in the will. And she's like, I don't. I just sue me. Come get me then, because I don't care.

[A]

But you do. You need to sit down and you. You need to decide these things. And it's okay if it takes more than one evening or if you get kind of, like, mentally exhausted and have to come back to it later. Just as long as you come back to it later. Now, number three, is an online will legally valid? Great question. Yes, an online will is legally valid, but not just any online will you find on the Internet is going to legally validate your state. Okay. You want to make sure your online will needs to be made to match the laws of your state, the state that you live in. Okay? So that's the important part. Number four, why would I want an online will versus a traditional one made with a lawyer? Very good question. The truth is, yeah, they're just less expensive and they're more convenient and they take less time to set up. So you could just pop online, do your thug fizzle and move on versus trying to set up something with an attorney. So if you have more questions, you can go to Ramsey Solutions.com wills quiz to find out if an online will is right for. For you. All right, enough of that business. Let's go to Sarah, who's in Georgia. Sarah, how can we help today?

[C]

Hey there. Thanks for taking my call. I. I have a question about whether or not I should take out a home loan or a heloc. I bought my grandmother's house two and a half years ago, and when I bought it, I knew it would need to be renovated, like down to the studs. So that's probably going to cost about $250,000.

[B]

Gosh.

[C]

Yeah, it's going to be expensive. I'm in a pretty good financial situation, and I've saved up $75,000 toward that. And so. And I've got savings, I've got an emergency fund, I've got retirement, all of that squared away. But do I take out HELOC or a loan? Go ahead and reno the house. And then after it's done, it will be income producing because I can rent out the basement and bring in about $2,000 a month or do I wait and continue to save for the next, probably four or five years until I have enough to, to just pay cash for all the renovations.

[A]

See, here's what I think about in these situations and I'm going to just play this back to you and John cut in. So when I hear somebody run out the two sides of like what I could do on the one side, when they're talking about the debt, they're like, I could just get a heloc. I could get it all done. I could have this income producing property. I could, you know, and there's all these positive, positive things. But then when they talk about the cash way, it's like, well, I could wait five years and then I would just. But they're not listing all the pros on that side. So, Sarah, we want to remind you of all the pros of paying cash, because there are pros. And yeah, it could take longer. But the truth is we didn't mention there would be no risk on your home, which was your grandmother's home, which is clearly a source of great pride and joy for you because you bought it. So we would eliminate the risk of, from that. We would allow you to sleep better at night. We would ensure that an asset that's been in your family remains in your family. Like there's a lot of pros on there that you didn't list that are benefits to doing this thing in cash.

[D]

How do you, where'd you come up with the 200 number?

[C]

So I've gotten some estimates from contractor, a general contractor and everything that needs to be done. And it is more expensive because. Cause essentially the basement would, it'll be two full kitchens, one for my living space, one for other living space.

[D]

Yeah. And that was, that was actually my question. Is there a, is there a path where you phase this in, where you completely gut and renovate your kitchen with your $75,000 and you have an amazing, beautiful living space and then you exhale for a year or two and then you make a choice down the road. Do I want to go through and completely gut and do this? Because what, here, here's what I promise. If you have a heloc, and what you're going to do is you're going to say, I want a $200,000 HELOC against my, against my home. They're going to say, well, there's always an overage or whatever. I'm just going to give you 275 and whatever. You don't use that's fine. I promise it will balloon up because they'll be like, well, what about these fixtures we could get? These are nice. And it just gets out of control. And if you have 75 grand, you say, this is all I have. It just changes how you spend your money. But is there a way you can fix. Phase it in?

[A]

Yeah. Why does it have to be an income property? Why can't it just be a place.

[D]

Later when I have the money to make an income property? But can you get this awesome kitchen? I'm trying to think of a new. Of a third way or a fourth way or a fifth way other than I've got to borrow a couple hundred thousand dollars against an old property. Which, by the way, I think that's probably when they get in the walls, they're going to find all kind of wild stuff. And they get into the basement, they're going to find all kind of structural. Like that's just what happens on those walls.

[B]

Homes.

[D]

Or I can't do anything for five years and I just got to sit here. Is there a middle ground there?

[C]

Well, so it needs new electrical and some plumbing updates. And so the thought was in. In the long run, it would save money by just doing all that at once versus doing. Going in and doing plumbing in one area or fixing electrical in one area or just doing the upstairs and fixing that and then doing the downstairs.

[D]

How much would it actually be?

[C]

I. I don't know the exact number.

[D]

I would want to get that. That. Because I think that's one of those things that we just think, hey, if we just do this all at once, it'll be cheaper.

[A]

Well, that's a luxury. Let's be honest. That's a luxury for when you have money. So let's break this down to a smaller. We're talking about a big house there. Let's break it down to a smaller denominator that we can talk about it and it'll make more sense. If you had a flat tire and you didn't have any money, and you're like, oh man, I have a flat tire. I'm going to go buy a tire. And they said, well, you should get all four. You'll get a better deal. You'd say, well, I can't afford all four.

[D]

I've got enough for one tire.

[A]

I'm just going to get the new tire that I need. And suddenly it makes a lot of sense because it's like, why would they. Why would I buy four tires I can't afford? I don't even really need the four ti, their third, you know, the other three. I just need the one. And so when we put it like that, you can, it's the same thing with this house. You can't afford it doesn't matter if it's a better deal to do it all at once. You can't afford it.

[D]

And Sarah, here's the other side. The show wouldn't exist if people didn't take out a four year heloc on their house for a couple hundred grand. And they immediately get into a construction project and then they get sick, man. Their in laws get sick like or Covid shuts everything. Like this show wouldn't exist if everybody's plans always worked. And so we have the misfortune and the blessing of our whole job consists of people who had this great plan. It's just going to be 36 months. It's just going to be four years and it something blows up. And that's why, man, if you don't owe anybody any money and you put 75 grand on the table, you get a brand new kitchen, they do the wiring and they do just the plastic in that area. And then something happens. You can take two years off and you don't have this looming, hey, they're going to take our house from us because we put it on the block. It's just a, it just a way to take risk off the table.

[A]

And I want to do $250,000 of work on my house.

[D]

I do too.

[A]

And I still gotta wait and do it little by little. Okay, so foreign.

[B]

Buying and selling a home is a big deal and you want an expert in your corner fighting for you to get the right deal at the right price. That's why we only recommend Ramsey trusted real estate agents. They're handpicked pros who know their stuff, listen to your needs and have your back from the first call all the way to closing day. To find a Ramsey trusted agent near you, visit ramseysolutions ramseysolutions.com agent.

[A]

All right, welcome back to the show. We've got Brian who's in Phoenix, Arizona. Hey Brian.

[C]

Hey Jade. Hey, John. Thanks for taking my call.

[A]

Yeah, you bet.

[C]

So I'm in my late 20s, I'm on baby steps 4 and 6 and I have around $40,000 that I want to spend on a car. I'm wondering if it makes financial difference whether I choose a new or used car for the same amount.

[A]

Interesting. Yeah.

[D]

How much do you make?

[C]

Around 200 hundred thousand.

[D]

Oh, so you got, you got some cash. What do you do for a living?

[C]

Dude, I'm actually funny enough, I'm in sales, financial advice, things like that.

[D]

Well played, man. Excellent.

[A]

So you, how old are you?

[C]

28.

[A]

28. And you've got a great income. Killing it. What's your, I mean, what do you have in retirement? What's your nest egg?

[C]

So total nest egg is around 830,000. 310,000 is in Brazil retirement. I've got 357 in taxable assets.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

30,000 cash, 13,000 HSA, and 120,000 on the home that I purchased last year.

[A]

Okay, so you're a millionaire.

[C]

No, it's 830 total.

[A]

Oh, okay. I thought you were saying 830 was in your retirement. So you're saying, you're saying the total amount. The total amount is 830. Okay.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

So. So I do think that in this case, if you want to spend the 40,000, it's no big deal. I would spend it on a used vehicle, though.

[D]

I would. Tell me, tell me why you don't want to.

[C]

Oh, no. The 26 RAV4 is looking pretty nice.

[D]

Okay, so if I told you you could get a 25 RAV4 and somebody turned the key in it and backed it off the lot and drove it right back on and burned 10 grand of that. Because that, that's the difference. The moment you buy, you sign your name on a brand new car, you drive it off the lot. It's worse. It's worth last year's car. And that's why we tell folks, wait. And a million dollar net worth is, is arbitrary. Like Dave just picked that number. But it's, it's basically, can you walk into your house and set $10,000 on fire in the living room and that's going to be. And you're okay with that? You've got a million bucks. That's such a tin. It would be dumb. And you know, nobody would want you to do that, but it wouldn't change your life.

[A]

Life.

[D]

And so that's, that's the difference. Dude, I love Rav fours. My wife drives a Highlander. I love them. In fact, she asked me the other day if I could trade that in for a high for a RAV4, an older one. Right. I totally love that car. It's just what's. What is driving off the lot and immediately losing that equity worth to you.

[C]

Got it. And I guess, would it make sense if I were to wait another year or two and buy used if I really wanted. Sorry.

[A]

Buy new.

[C]

If I was able to bring it up to a million.

[D]

I did that exact thing recently. Like, literally that exact thing.

[A]

Yeah. The million is a. To John's point, it's a rule of thumb. It's something that we kind of feel like, hey, this is the point where. To John's point, you don't care about. You can take the loss, you can take the hit. You're very, very close. I mean, bro, you're.

[B]

You're.

[D]

You're so far ahead of all of humanity. You're doing great, man. Yeah, great.

[A]

If I'm going to advise you to do a used car, if you did a new one, lightning wouldn't strike you. Worse things could happen in your life. But we're just telling you the rule of thumb that we think is kind of that safe point where you can really feel good about it. Like, you can feel good about driving off the lot brand new. And it's like, hey, I. If you're a rule follower, it's like, I follow the rules and I did this. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's that kind of thing. Do I think it would break you? No, it wouldn't break you at all.

[D]

You wouldn't feel it at all.

[A]

You wouldn't feel it. So take that very contrasting advice.

[D]

But. But you put it out there. So let me ask you, what. What is waiting six months? Like, what's. What's burning a hole in your pocket right now, Right?

[C]

My car is getting to the point. I drive a used car. It's the first car I had. It's at the point where it's a lot more maintenance, a lot more money is going into it. So I think it's ready to. To buy something newer.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, like, say, dude, you're doing something so well, and if you think it's gonna, like, the. The intellectual exercise or the. The discipline of. I'm gonna put on the calendar four months. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna make myself wait four months, and then I'm gonna go buy this car then. If you think you need that. And that'd be good for you long term because you work in sales, right? So some years are gonna be up, some years aren't. That's. That's the lifestyle. So I'm having a. I'm in a good season right now. I'm in a season of blessing. That's awesome. I'm gonna practice just holding off just because I can.

[A]

That's a good.

[D]

Like, somebody sits in a cold plunge. Like, I just. I'm gonna do this, because I, it makes me tougher. Right? And I think that'd be an awesome exercise. But also, if you went out today, you're not again, you're not going to be destitute tomorrow. You're gonna be fine. But you are gonna have just said, hey, like, Toyota dealership, I want to give y' all 10 grand of my hard earned money. Really? For no reason other than I wanted this right this second.

[A]

Kind of. Because here's the truth. The truth is, if you said, hey, Jade, there's a used car I want to buy that's $50,000, I would have said, yeah, go do it.

[D]

Because you, somebody else has already burned the depreciation for you.

[A]

But my point is the amount is not any risk to you. It's. It fits your income, it fits your net worth. And so that's kind of the way I'm reverse engineering it in my mind. But, you know, if you want to hit that rule of thumb, that's also great.

[D]

Here's another game to play. What's your mortgage every month.

[C]

Like a $3,000?

[D]

I. 3,000, correct. Okay, so just ask yourself, is this, how is this car today worth three months of house payments?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And question. If that's a, if that's a good math, if that's a good trade for you, then cool.

[A]

Yeah, Cars are, cars are an interesting thing because if you're a car car person, you're like, I'm in on it all day. Yeah. But then if you're like me, who's not much of a car person, the question that John just asked, I'd be like, no, it's not worth three months more. You know, I'm that person because I like nice things, but for whatever reason, cars just don't. They just don't do it for me as like, I'm willing to spend this money today. Like, I just.

[D]

And again, I want to run back what Jay just said. Our rule of thumb here is once you're at a different debt, don't, don't own anything. Of vehicles with wheels on it, toys that are worth more than half of your annual take home income. You make 200 grand. So technically, following that line, if you came and said, I want to buy $99,000, we'd say knock your license if you got cash for it. It's not about the dollar amount you're spending. The 40 grand is nothing for you. It's simply about do you want to. For the one year having it. Now, do you want to burn 10,000 bucks or 7,000 I don't know what. How much RAV4 depreciates in one year? I have no idea. But do you want to burn that now, or do you want to go buy a 2025? Or if the model changed and everything upgraded or whatever, do you want to wait in a couple more months till December and they're going to start liquidating those cars at a lower price? Then you can pick one up there, which is what I did last year with the truck. So you do whatever you want, man. And you're well within the rule of thumb.

[C]

You're there.

[A]

Yeah. This is not gonna. This is not a.

[D]

But it's a. It's a principle as much as a, you're gonna be in trouble of any kind.

[A]

Yeah. Cause. And that. That's the crazy part of this rule of thumb. If you said, hey, Jade, I want to get this $99,000 car in cash, I'd be like, I would tell you.

[D]

That'S dumb, but do it. But, I mean, it's not gonna hurt you. It'd be stupid, but do it. Right. But it goes back to that. That principle of, can you just. Can you just eat that?

[A]

Yeah, man. Interesting conversation. I like it. I like it. I like it. All right. I like these social questions that we have on the desk. So if you follow us on social media, you can submit questions. I guess even if you don't follow us, you can submit questions. That's the whole point. But if you don't want to call into the show and this is a way that you want to ask, you could do that. So William from Facebook says, is there an average amount or percentage you should set aside in your budget each year to fund for future maintenance and repairs on home? So, like, he's wondering if there's, like, an actual number that we're saying, hey, in your budget, always budget this amount kind of as a sinking fund.

[D]

It's like a depreciation.

[A]

Yeah. My answer would be no. Obviously, you've got your emergency fund. Right. Three to six months. That is for the stuff that pops up that you didn't see was coming. And then beyond that, I would treat it as a sinking fund. Anything that you feel like you couldn't capture flow in a month's time. Like, some people, their income is enough that if they blew their tire out, they could cash flow it. Other people, if they blow their tire out, that's setting them back. So, yeah, you probably need to have some sort of a car maintenance sinking fund that you're putting $50 a month in or 25. Whatever suits your budget that you're putting aside every, you know, month for that. What else does he ask for? Home repairs. Yeah. Again, if you know your roof is 25 years old and you're going to.

[D]

Need one in two years. Yeah.

[A]

Start putting aside for it. So. Yeah, that's a really good question. It's not a certain amount. There's not an amount that we say. This is the amount. It's based on your situation in your budget. And by the way, if you don't have an every dollar budget, I'm going to suggest you get one. It's the best budget out there. It's the one that I use, it's the one that John uses, and it'll help you create those syncing funds that you need. All right, Today's scripture and quote of the day. First, Thessalonians 5, 5115, 11. Therefore, encourage one another and build each other up. Just as, in fact, you are doing all right. Vince Lombardi said, confidence is contagious. So is lack of confidence. That's so good.

[B]

Gosh.

[D]

That's what everybody needs right now. Confidence is a unified. We got this.

[A]

I like that.

[D]

Yeah, that'd be. That'd be. That'd be. That'd be cool.

[A]

It makes me think of. Gosh. I always go to Remember the Titans, and you've never seen it, which is me. Right?

[D]

I've seen it a thousand times.

[A]

Okay. But the last time I feel like I quoted it, you didn't know what I was talking about.

[D]

What'd you quote?

[A]

It was about mounting up on wings like eagles. That was the day. Yeah. And I said, like eagles, y'. All. Like eagles.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally forgot it.

[A]

All right.

[D]

And then this context. I've seen it a thousand times.

[A]

I was thinking about it again.

[D]

Was like, strong side.

[A]

Yeah, dude. This one, I was thinking, attitude reflects leadership. Captain. Right. Anyway, moving on.

[D]

And the math teacher brings in, like, that. That film strip. He's like, I've been breaking down the other tendencies. I was like, bro, you're, like, running algorithms with a protractor.

[A]

It's a classic, classic movie. A film, really. You should really watch it. All right. Kira is in Austin, Texas. Hey, Kira. How can we help today? Hi, Jade.

[C]

Hi, John. I had a question. My employer allows us to con our 401k to Roth. And I was wondering if that is a good idea to start doing.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

If you got the cash, do it.

[C]

Okay. I couldn't. I can't do it all at once because I Have quite a large 401K. And my company only matches if you contribute to the 401k, not the Roth. So over time, would that. That be a good investment meant to do?

[A]

I think so. They only match it if it's the traditional 401k. They don't match it if you put it in 401.

[C]

Correct. So still contributing to the 401k. But I can convert it to the Roth, which is weird, but then you can't touch that for five years.

[A]

So I'm going to go with the traditional first because the equation is match beats traditional beats Roth. Match beats Roth, beats traditional. There we go. So free money. Nothing's going to beat out free money. So we want the free money first and then we love Roth over traditional. Right. Because when you're older and down the line, you don't want to have to pay taxes on that money. You don't want your family have to pay taxes on that money. So if you can convert it, that's also a great thing. And yeah, I, I would do that.

[C]

Okay. And I could only do a little bit over time because I don't want to get of my tax bracket when I like. Because. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it counts as income. Right. When you convert it. And then you have to pay like, I don't want to move out of the tax bracket. So if I make a large amount, I don't want to like, you're over.

[D]

My skis on that one. You'll have to ask a tax pro on that one.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. What baby stuff are you on?

[C]

I'm on four, I think. Whatever, whatever. Contribute. Paying down the house.

[A]

Okay. So you might want to get with the tax pro, but you should be paying, you're paying money because you're, you're basically, essentially when you do a Roth, you've already paid the taxes on it.

[C]

Yeah, no, I meant when I convert. When I convert it. So let's say I convert $50,000. Don't I have to pay my tax tax bracket percentage for that $50,000 that I convert?

[D]

Because I. Yeah, but that's the conversion. That's what you're, you're paying taxes on that 50 grand as though it was income now, and you're not going to pay taxes on it when it becomes 500 grand 30 years from now?

[C]

Yeah, so, yeah, so that's what I'm saying is like I have $330,000 in the 401k that I could convert, but I don't Want to convert all of that at once? Because I don't have the money to pay. Yeah, okay, so perfect.

[A]

Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Technically, Technically, this is, this is a baby step seven action, what you're doing here.

[C]

So I should pay off my house before I do that?

[A]

Technically, yes. Because there it's, it's almost like if you were rolling this money over to a traditional Roth or I'm sorry, to a Roth ira. It's almost like if you were doing that and we would save that for baby step seven because of the tax implication you're in baby step four. So there's other more important things to do do than to do that. Now. I wish I'm thinking through this because this is the first time I've had this call because I love a Roth, but at the first, at the same time, you're getting this match over. So I'd almost pretend like the other one wasn't there until baby step seven.

[C]

Okay, so don't convert it.

[A]

Yeah. Because I don't want to pay off my house. Yeah. I don't want that tax burden on you until. Until after baby step six. Yep. That's my final answer. Is that your final answer, John?

[D]

I think my final answer would be start converting that other. The backlog, if you will. Like maybe start now. Like this year's income converted.

[C]

That's what I was thinking is doing like 50,000 a year.

[D]

And what's your take home salary every year?

[C]

What do you make for me and my husband? Both are just me.

[D]

Just you at your company that you would roll to, to you do a backdoor 200,000. 200. Okay. So you make a chunk of money. Okay.

[A]

I don't mind that. I don't mind what John said and keeping the past in the past, but from this, from this point forward, whatever your current amount is that you're starting with it as a traditional. And then at the end of the year or whatever, however you want to do it, rolling that over. I'm not mad at that.

[D]

And here's my, my, my algorithm on that in my head is, is not a dollar for dollar. I'm sure somebody could whip out a calculator and make a math case one way or the other.

[A]

Well, she would have been doing that, that anyway. Like on the taxes.

[D]

Exactly. But, but I'm saying like in, in doing it out of order is there's a risk to. Let's say the stock market has a significant troubles down the road. Right. So there's a risk anytime you're in the stock market. There's always, you're always playing a risk game. The one thing that's not going to change is that mortgage is still coming every month.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And so I want to, I want to knock out the thing that's against me all the time. Like I want to take the risk off the table. And that's, that's just a personal thing. And so I would, I would probably roll the, the, your this year's income into the Roth, do it back to a Roth at the end of the year. But I would, Yeah, I, I'm with Jade. I would save that catch up, if you will, until I've taken all my risk off the table. But that's just me. And that may be a terrible mathematical calculation. I can't do the math in my head. But that's, that's for me just wanting to solve for peace in my house.

[C]

Yeah. The only reason I was thinking about converting it since it grows tax free, once you pay taxes on anything, it grows from it. And I still have.

[A]

Well, that's why, that's why I said your current amount, like whatever you're putting in there for, for this year and the years going forward, I'm fine with you getting the match and then rolling it over and then. Because that, that was a tax burden you were going to take anyway.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Whereas the big chunk, the 330 or 40 or whatever it was, that's a bigger tax burden. And like I'm with you on John.

[D]

Rather not have a house payment, save.

[A]

The big chunk as a baby step seven action. Yeah, that's a good question.

[D]

And that will cost you for everyone who's yelling and screaming into their, their YouTube.

[A]

Yeah. People aren't going to agree with you.

[D]

And Dave may disagree with me, but it's going to cost you potential compound growth that, that, I mean, it's going to cost you money to keep it there. Right. If you're going to roll into a Roth and it could have grown tax free or that's there's going to be a penalty there. Right. It's going to cost you something to not make that action. But it's also going to cost you money that could have paid down your house principal and that house principal never going to go away. And so I, I would take that risk off the table first. That's just me.

[A]

It's a prioritization. We would say that if somebody, if somebody called in today and even though this is through her employer. Right. If somebody called in today and said, hey, I've got 500,000 sitting in my, you know, in my traditional fund. Should I roll it over? But they had a bunch of a pile of debt sitting there and they had payments. We would still walk them through the baby steps. And so in the baby steps, any type of conversion, any type of investing over 15 is a baby step seven action. And so that's the way it rolls. And it's just like John said, it's keeping the priorities. The priority, which is getting peace and getting your house paid off would come first in that.

[D]

But I do love the idea of my, the people who come after me being able to get all of my retirement with no taxes.

[A]

Absolutely. It's. Yes, it is. It is important to do that. If you can do it, it do it. And if you can only do Roth, only do Roth. But like I said, free money. That's again, that's gonna trumpet at this point. So that's the way it works. All right, guys, enjoyed hanging out with you today. Remember, there's only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of peace, Christ Jesus. Thanks for watching the Ramsey Show. See you next time.

[D]

I.