You Can't Borrow Your Way To A Better Life

Summary

The Ramsey Show — “You Can't Borrow Your Way To A Better Life”

Date: July 13, 2026
Host: George Kamel (Ramsey Network)
Theme: Facing financial reality, breaking cycles of debt, and building real wealth (without borrowing) through budgeting, sacrifice, and intentional planning.

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Episode Overview

Flying solo from the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, George Kamel takes listener calls on a range of financial topics—eliminating debt, home buying, family money disputes, emergency funds, investing, and the emotional toll of financial hardship. True to Ramsey principles, George urges listeners to confront their money realities, cut out debt, and create hope-filled plans for their futures, no matter how dire things may seem.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. “Drowning” in Debt & The Power of the First Step

Caller: Jordan (Oklahoma City) [00:45–09:00]

• Situation: 28 years old, married with 4 kids, $45K in consumer debt (mainly a $30K car loan and credit cards), single income ($50K), minimal savings, wife not working outside the home.
• Highlights:
  • Urgency of separating mortgage from consumer debt; focus starts with the latter.
  • The importance of creating a $1,000 emergency fund with the cash on hand—even if it’s just $1,300.
  • Discussed the emotional resistance to cutting up credit cards:

    “That’s frightening. That’s like the mafia being like, yeah, we’ll give you another four grand if you need it, bud...at 28% APR.” — George [03:53]

  • The car is the biggest barrier—advice to figure out how “underwater” they are, sell, and drive a cheap replacement.
  • Heavy push for side hustles and increasing household income, even if it means sacrificing family time for a season.
  • Stop ALL investing until consumer debt is gone (“gazelle intensity”).
  • Memorable advice:

    “When I was in my twenties, I had forty grand in debt...I wanted to invest and I was doing 14 good things at once and I wasn’t getting anywhere.” — George [07:49]

  • Gifted "Breaking Free from Broke" and EveryDollar Premium to help budget.

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2. Affording Independence in an Expensive City

Caller: Haley (Washington D.C.) [10:25–15:35]

• Situation: 27, living with parents, earning $89K (approx. $4K take-home), no debt, wants to move out but daunted by rent prices ($1,800–$2,000 for one-bedroom).
• Highlights:
  • Rule of thumb: housing should be about 25% of after-tax income.
  • Strongly encouraged roommate situations (despite the dog making it harder).
  • Importance of projective budgeting:

    “Do a budget...lay it out in EveryDollar...here’s my income, bills, what my bills might be on my own—that will give you so much peace.” — George [14:33]

  • Advised urgency in setting a move-out goal, but stressed nothing’s “on fire.”
  • Gifted EveryDollar Premium to help forecast future expenses.

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3. HSA Investing Strategies for Families

Caller: Reed (Denver) [15:35–20:07]

• Situation: Family of 7, on Baby Steps 4–6, has $5,500 in HSA, $6K deductible, $12K out-of-pocket max, wants to know when (and how much) HSA should be invested.
• Highlights:
  • Invest HSA money above the deductible/out-of-pocket max; keep enough cash to cover medical expenses.
  • The “Dave Ramsey HSA hack”—cash-flow medical, let HSA compound tax-free, and reimburse yourself later (after 65, functions like a traditional IRA).
  • Triple-tax advantages of HSAs: pre-tax contributions, tax-free growth, tax-free withdrawals for qualified expenses.
  • Story of orthodontic expenses and why families should cash-flow if possible.

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4. Family Money Fallout & Handling Inheritance Drama

Caller: Bijou (Long Island) [21:35–31:20]

• Situation: Sibling took $136K from jointly-named accounts after their father's death; mother wants to remove brother from will and leave everything to caller.
• Highlights:
  • George stressed not becoming the “bad guy” or family scapegoat:

    “The money is your mother’s to do wants with, correct?...She could give it all to Salvation Army instead of a dime to any of you, and that’s her prerogative.” — George [24:20]

  • Emphasized importance of open conversations between mother and brother before changes to the will.
  • Risks of trying to “make it fair” by giving inheritance to brother’s kids (could backfire).
  • Emotional insight: losing money often masks deeper family grief.

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5. Investing for Kids in 2026: Trump Accounts, 529s & Broader Strategy

Segment: Investing For Kids [32:15–44:03]

• Highlights:
  • Trump Account: A new traditional IRA for kids under 18 (not political). $1,000 government seed, invested in US index funds, accessible at 18.
  • Loophole: Converting to Roth IRA upon adulthood could yield $650K+ by retirement if managed right.
  • 529 Plan recommended for education savings (better tax treatment for college).
  • Parent brokerage accounts for funding cars, weddings, or home down payments (maintain parental control).
  • UTMAs/Ugmas not recommended (kids gain full access at 18 or 21).
  • For K–12 education, ESA can help, but has more restrictions.

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6. Post-Debt-Free Fog: Struggling to Build for the Next Goal

Caller: Stephanie (Boise) [44:03–53:53]

• Situation: Early 40s, debt-free for two years, feel stuck/“hopeless” about ever affording a home, single income ($64K), small emergency fund, renting.
• Highlights:
  • Encouraged building a detailed budget to identify “margin” for savings.
  • The “post-debt-free fog” is normal; suggested a “budget audit party.”
  • “You’re not crazy, you’re not alone...” — George [48:15]
  • Emphasis on intentionality and using new motivation for rapid savings toward down payment.
  • Gifted EveryDollar Premium + access to a budget coaching call.

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7. Can I Borrow to Grow My Business? Young Cattle Farmer Edition

Caller: Stephen (Dayton) [53:53–65:00]

• Situation: 18 y/o, cattle operation, profiting but wants to scale—contemplating a $250K loan to buy more calves vs. custom feeding (lower profit, lower risk).
• Highlights:
  • “This is definitely the first call I’ve taken on, can I borrow money to buy my own cows?” — George [55:54]
  • Stressed the dangers of leverage (“You can get rich quick...until you lose it all.”).
  • Urged Steven to go at the speed of cash, avoid loans, and scale gradually—even if it’s slower.
  • Advised to prioritize financial security over “risk for reward” particularly given his age.
  • Gifted Dave’s “Build a Business You Love.”

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8. Is Our Home or Our Habits Making Us Broke?

Caller: Rosanna (Chattanooga) [65:00–79:11]

• Situation: Family of 8, $2K/month grocery spend, owns home (complex financing—mortgage plus $30K owed to dad), $16K other debt, tension with husband over money.
• Highlights:
  • George pinpointed the real issue as lack of unity/budgeting, not groceries or the house.

  • “The house ain’t got nothing to do with it. The house is an amoral being.” — George [69:03]

  • Suggests a full, transparent budget together (not just for one spouse).
  • “Mathematically, half your income is going to groceries on top of the mortgage...things just aren’t adding up.” — [72:09]
  • Encouraged to break the cycle, cut up credit cards, and use EveryDollar Premium.

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9. Emergency Funds vs. Rapid Debt Payoff (and “Life Happens” Wrinkles)

Caller: Andrew (Charleston) [79:11–86:17]

• Situation: Dual-income, $135K/year, new homeowners, nearly $80K in debt (mostly student loans), have $1,000 EF, considering boosting emergency fund due to potential family travel/health expenses.
• Highlights:
  • Stick to the Ramsey Baby Steps—$1,000 EF until debt is paid off.
  • Consider a “home repair sinking fund” ($200/mo) but don’t pause debt payoff to build a large EF.
  • Emergencies are managed by pausing snowball if/when they happen.
  • “There’s a reason [the Baby Steps] are in that order... Too many people are doing 19 things at once wondering why they’re not making progress.” — [84:13]

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10. Should We Sell the Farm for Financial Freedom?

Caller: Matthew (Buffalo) [86:17–94:51]

• Situation: Early 30s, 4 young kids, farm with $800K in equity, could sell all assets and live debt free (wife could stay home), but unsure about leaving farm life.
• Highlights:
  • If their dream is for wife to be home, selling might be the fastest route to peace.
  • Analyzed mortgage vs. selling outcome: selling enables a totally debt-free life, buying a home in cash.
  • “Are you stressed now...because it’s a lot of upkeep to keep up this farm?” — George [93:41]
  • Urged a deep couples’ discussion on priorities and what dream—financial peace or farm life—they value most.

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11. The Net Worth Numbers That Truly Matter

Segment: Net Worth Comparison [95:01–104:25]

• Highlights:
  • Net worth: what you own minus what you owe (assets minus liabilities).
  • Ramsey listeners often have much higher net worth than national median.
  • “If Dave Ramsey walks into a Waffle House, the average net worth of everyone...just went up by $100,000.” — George [97:31]
  • Gave age-milestone targets and compared to US averages, emphasizing building net worth, not just a high credit score.
  • Recommended the free Ramsey Net Worth Calculator.

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12. Widowhood, Survival & Steadying for the Future

Caller: Barbara (Salt Lake City) [107:08–117:16]

• Situation: 59 y/o widow, lived through tragic loss and recovery, debts paid except $8K (taxes and medical), $236K in CDs, paid-off home, modest income.
• Highlights:
  • Should move CD funds to high-yield savings and eventually invest in mutual/index funds; keep six months of expenses liquid.
  • Importance of a proper budget to find/trim expenses.
  • Addressed emotional exhaustion and the importance of term life insurance.
  • “Let’s get you a game plan before we run out of time here...” — George [114:33]

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13. Providing as a New Dad: Balancing Safety and Debt Aggression

Caller: Andrew (Salt Lake City) [117:23–end]

• Situation: 25 y/o, new father, unmarried but all-in with partner, $29K debt (credit card, car, school), living rent-free, wants a robust safety net but wonders if it slows debt payoff.
• Highlights:
  • Push to legally marry for protection and proper financial unity.
  • Use “speed of cash” to wipe out debt aggressively with the income left over every month.
  • Addressed the false sense of security of high savings while debt grows.
  • “Be aggressive, make the sacrifices now...build the foundation for your family.” — George [124:54]
  • Promise: “If you get married this weekend, you call me back, I’ll send you a real nice wedding gift.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On using credit as a “safety net”:

  "That's frightening. That's like the mafia being like, yeah, we'll give you another four grand if you need it." — George [03:53]

• On the real cause of being 'broke':

  “The house ain’t got nothing to do with it...decisions were made.” — George [69:03]

• On tackling net worth vs. credit score:

  “Your net worth: what you own minus what you owe...It’s a GPS coordinate.” — George [97:31]

• On family fallout & grief:

  “Grief is only love that’s got nowhere to go.” — George quoting Steven Wilson Jr. [26:34]

• On prioritizing the ‘why’:

  “One of the best whys possible to do this plan: there’s a baby in the world, there’s a woman you love, there’s this family you want to see flourish and thrive.” — [124:54]

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Useful Timestamps

• [00:45] Jordan: Overwhelmed by Debt & Breaking the Cycle
• [10:25] Haley: Planning to Move Out in Pricy D.C.
• [15:35] Reed: How & When to Invest Using an HSA
• [21:35] Bijou: Inheritance, Sibling Betrayal & Family You Can’t Fix
• [32:15] Investing for Kids: Trump Accounts, 529s, and More
• [44:03] Stephanie: Losing Steam after Paying Off Debt
• [53:53] Stephen: Borrowing to Build a Cattle Business
• [65:00] Rosanna: “Are Groceries/Budget Why We’re Broke?!”
• [79:11] Andrew: Emergency Fund vs. Gazelle Intensity
• [86:17] Matthew: Sell Family Farm to Be Debt-Free?
• [95:01] Net Worth: What Matters, How Do You Compare?
• [107:08] Barbara: Widowhood, Survival, and Investing Hope
• [117:23] Andrew: Providing as a New Dad & Debt Payoff Guilt

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Final Notes

This episode embodies classic Ramsey wisdom: You cannot borrow your way to a better future. Achieving financial peace demands honesty, unity, and a willingness to sacrifice ease today for peace tomorrow. Wherever you start, focusing on budgeting, eliminating debt, and purposeful investing will set you apart from “normal”—because normal is broke.

Resources Mentioned:

• EveryDollar Budgeting App
• SmartVestor Pro (Investing Guidance)
• Net Worth Calculator

Listen to the Ramsey Show for hope, action steps, and a reminder: it’s never too late to change your money story.

Transcript

[Caller]

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app.

[George Camel]

Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel, your host today. No co host, just flying solo. No chaperones. Going to have fun in the basement today. It's going to be a good time. Kicking it off, we've got Jordan, Oklahoma City, and if you want to call in the numbers, triple 882-55-5225. What's going on, Jordan? How can I help today?

[Caller]

Well, I feel like I've pretty much been drowning in debt my entire adult life and I'm, I'm just sort of over it and I want to take control.

Man.

[George Camel]

That is the best step right there. Too many people never get there. So I'm proud of you. How old are you?

[Caller]

28.

[George Camel]

28. And you're sick and tired of being sick and tired already?

[Caller]

Yes, sir, man.

[George Camel]

Okay, so where did this start? Was this like post college in your adult life or was this a long way before that with student loans?

[Caller]

No, I don't have any student loans. It was after college. Just start getting started in the workforce and buying a house and having kids and it all just kind of kept piling on and never went away.

Wow.

[George Camel]

So how much do you make?

[Caller]

I make after taxes, about 50,000 a year.

[George Camel]

Okay. And is your spouse work outside the home?

[Caller]

She does not.

[George Camel]

Okay, so 50 grand is your take take home. How much do you have in debt including the house?

[Caller]

About 220, 215,000.

[George Camel]

Okay, let's separate the mortgage out for now. How much do you have in consumer debt? Any non mortgage debt?

[Caller]

Yeah, I've got probably about 45,000.

[George Camel]

Okay, break that down for me. What kind of debts are those and what's the balances?

[Caller]

So our car, we have one car. The debt on that's about 30,000 right now. Okay, I've got three credit cards. I've got one that's got about 9200, one at about 2000 and one at about a thousand.

[George Camel]

And that's everything?

[Caller]

That's everything. Yeah, the, the car and the three credit cards.

[George Camel]

That'll do, man. Yeah, I feel it. You became an adult, you got a house and you leveraged yourself a little bit to get there. Driving a nice car and covering I guess the deficit of your bills on the credit cards. What made you turn to those

[Caller]

not having any cash?

[George Camel]

Yeah. And you have no cash right now? Anything in checking savings?

[Caller]

I've got about 500 bucks in the bank, and I've got 800 bucks in cash that's just sitting in a drawer that we don't touch. That's kind of our backup.

[George Camel]

Okay, well, I'd love for you to just deposit that in a savings account and that'll get you to Baby Step. $1,000 starter emergency fund to cover those ankle biters. Because I'm guessing along the way, when you have nothing in the bank, every single little thing that comes up feels an emergency and it brings you back a notch.

[Caller]

Pretty much, yeah. My, my paychecks just about COVID my bills and that's it.

[George Camel]

Have you cut up the cards yet?

[Caller]

I haven't.

[George Camel]

You want to do that with me right now or is that, is that too scary?

[Caller]

It's scary because it's outside of that small amount of cash, that's really the only safety net we have because I do still have a little bit of credit left on the credit cards. One of them's got. I've got about 4,000 worth of credit to spend on it. So it's, it's kind of my, my biggest safety net. I just hate going to it, man.

[George Camel]

That's frightening. That's like the mafia being like, yeah, we, we'll give you another four grand if you need it, bud. We're here for you. At 28% APR.

[Caller]

Correct, man.

[George Camel]

Well, there's a few things I would do if I was in your shoes. Number one, I would sit down with my wife and say, this is bad. I, I'm scared. I'm not leading our family well in this area. We sort of created this house of cards and we can do better. Have you had that conversation with her yet?

[Caller]

Yeah, we have that, that conversation frequently. And I know she wants to go to work. She wants to be able to work and to help out, but we've got four kids.

[George Camel]

Goodness.

[Caller]

Just a little unfeasible.

[George Camel]

What are the ages?

[Caller]

Eight, five, two and a half and seven months.

[George Camel]

Okay, so let's talk about this car. That is the glaring issue here. Most of your problems would be solved if we got rid of this car payment, right?

[Caller]

It would, it would definitely help. We've already gotten rid of one car just to free up that amount. So that's why we just left ourselves with one car.

[George Camel]

What do you owe on it? I mean, you owe the 30. What's it worth?

[Caller]

I'm probably upside down. And it was a seven year loan at ten and a half percent, so I don't think I Could sell it and make any money.

[George Camel]

Well, even if you can't make profit, the goal is to figure out how much you're underwater and find the private party value on a site like Kelley Blue Book and then see if we can actually get that amount for it. So let's say you owe 30. It's worth 25. Private party. Well, now we at least know the facts that we're five grand underwater. We got to come up with five grand that might be from savings that we work to save so that we can get rid of the car that might be from your local credit union and a personal loan, but it will get rid of your payment. Now we obviously need another car to drive, so we need money on top of that to get you from A to B. For now. What are you doing for work?

[Caller]

I'm in law enforcement.

[George Camel]

Okay. What does the sort of trajectory look like for you in law enforcement to make more money? And can you do side gigs? Can you do security on the weekends at churches, for example?

[Caller]

Yeah, I try and do those when they come up. They're just a little few and far between. I, we're supposed to get, you know, yearly pay raises which we're, we're having troubles with at the moment. And I was trying to promote recently and, and that's not going to happen, so.

[George Camel]

Why is that?

[Caller]

I just didn't, I didn't make the, the number one spot on our promotional exam.

[George Camel]

Well, side hustles are going to be your friend for now, but I would love to see you get your core income up so that we can get out of this debt faster. Because usually what we see is a debt to income ratio of about 50%. So if someone makes 100 grand, they got 50 grand in debt. That tells me we can get out of this thing in two years. In your shoes, you got 45 grand in consumer debt making 50. So it's almost 100% debt to income ratio. And so I want you to have that urgency of we got to figure this out. I need to do seven side hustles. I might not, you know, see those kids at night. Bedtime might be a little difficult for a season, but just getting rid of that car payment is going to allow you to breathe. What's the car payment every month?

[Caller]

It's 530amonth.

[George Camel]

And what is your actual take home pay? You said it's 50k a year as your take home. So it's about 4k a month coming in.

[Caller]

Yeah, my paychecks, if I just work a straight 80 hours or about 1900 BI weekly.

[George Camel]

Okay, man. Are you doing any investing right now?

[Caller]

A little bit. I mean, I got 50 bucks in an ETF and I'm trying to put a little bit into retirement as far as the future goes. But as far as, you know, in and out investing, I haven't really touched on that. Between my, you know, my mortgage and my car payment, that's an entire paycheck.

[George Camel]

Yeah, well, I'd encourage you to focus on this with some gazelle intensity because when I was in my twenties, I had forty grand in debt between student loans and credit cards, and I wanted to invest and I was doing 14 good things at once and I wasn't getting anywhere. So if you want to get serious about this, you called in saying, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. You've got to focus on this thing with a vengeance. No investing nothing but working, throwing all the margin you can at the debt. Save up the five grand, get rid of the car payment, borrow a car if you have to, find one on Facebook for three grand, drive that thing to the wheels fall off, rinse and repeat until you are debt free. And hang on the line. I'm going to send you a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke. It'll walk you through the whole process and it's going to hook you up with the EveryDollar Premium app so you guys can sit down at night, make a plan for every dollar is going so you can breathe again. So your conversations from stressful to dreaming. Wishing you the best, man. Hey, I want to talk to you for a second about love and not love like in Titanic or something. I mean, responsible love. The kind of love that moves you to take care of the people closest to you. And one of the most important ways to show that kind of love is by having term life insurance. If you have anyone depending on you, a spouse, kids, anyone, you need term life insurance. Term life insurance gives your family real protection if the unthinkable happens, so they can spend their time grieving and not worrying about how the bills are going to get paid. Zander is a broker who works for you, shopping the top companies to find the right coverage options for your needs and your budget. In many cases, there are options available with no medical exam and instant approval. My wife and I had term life insurance through Xander for years, long before I worked at Ramsey, because we trust them. Getting term life insurance is a way of saying I love you when you can no longer say it yourself. Go to zander.com or call 1 800-356-4282 to find the coverage that fits your family. Haley is up Next in Washington, D.C. hayley, welcome to the show.

[Caller]

Hey, George. Thanks for having me.

[George Camel]

Absolutely. What's going on with you?

[Caller]

Yeah, I am currently 27. I live with my parents, and I am trying to figure out how to afford moving out. I don't know if I can afford it, really.

[George Camel]

Okay, great question. Are you in the D.C. area proper?

[Caller]

I am, yes.

[George Camel]

Okay, what does rent cost around your area for a reasonable, let's say one bedroom. But let's also talk about maybe a two or three bedroom with roommates.

[Caller]

Yeah, one bedroom. I found a Reasonable one at 18, 1900, kind of outside in the metro area. And I would say with roommates, for a single person, I could get that down to 1500, maybe 1200.

Okay, great.

[George Camel]

What are you making

[Caller]

before taxes? I make 89k a year gross. And then after taxes, it comes out to like 4,000amonth.

[George Camel]

Whoa.

[Caller]

I mean, after taxes and like withholdings for insurance and stuff.

[George Camel]

Okay. Are you doing any investing right now?

[Caller]

I do have an investment retirement account. I've got 15k in that about. And then I think I have another like, 5k in a Roth IRA. Cool.

[George Camel]

Way to go. All right. What are you doing for work?

[Caller]

I work for the government.

[George Camel]

Fantastic. Well, you got a great salary. That helps. That tells me we independence is in your. In your near future. And do you have any debt?

[Caller]

No. Like, debt. I have a credit card that I pay off every month. I do have a dog, so I'd consider like, owning a pet, kind of.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Dogs are a form of future debt if you're not careful.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Camel]

I say that as to an owner of two French bulldogs who I've spent too much money on. So let's talk about this. You're 27, living with mom and dad. You're wanting to get out. You're bringing home a little over four grand a month.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So our parameter for all housing, this counts for rent. This is your mortgage, is about a quarter of your after tax monthly income.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So that doesn't count. Like your investment contributions, your health care, we're just talking about after taxes. So that kind of helps you go. Okay, that's probably more like five grand a month for you. Right?

[Caller]

That's true. Yeah.

[George Camel]

So now we're looking at 1250 is sort of what we're aiming for. Now. If it's 1300, nothing's on fire. It's just we want to have wiggle room to do the other baby Steps and to live our life and to, you know, build wealth. So have you looked into living with other roommates, People who already have a place? Do you have friends in the area?

[Caller]

Yeah, I really think that's the solution. I don't have friends in the area, but I've also thought about, like, maybe finding a place that has a couple bedrooms and then looking for roommates. For me with a pet, it's been harder. Like finding a place that is looking for a roommate with my. With my pet.

[George Camel]

Yeah. The pets can be more difficult.

[Caller]

Could work.

Yeah.

[George Camel]

But if you. If you get the place first. Here's the fear. You get the place, and now you're looking for roommates for six months while you're fronting a $2,500 rent bill.

[Caller]

Yep.

[George Camel]

So that's where I wouldn't do this until you've got, like, you know, we're doing Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. We're doing a spit shake. We're all going to live here. We're all going to sign the lease. So that's where my homework would start to begin. Now is going, okay, can I start to join some of these Facebook groups? Whatever the resources, you have to go find roommates that are not, you know, they're not going to ruin your life. I guess that's the word, the way to put it, because roommates can be a scary thing. And I know you'd prefer to live alone, but right now, spending two grand a month out of four does not make sense. Would you agree?

[Caller]

Yeah, absolutely. That's been the whole crazy part. I'm like, I can't do 2k on grand, 100%.

[George Camel]

And I say this as a guy who had roommates all the way up until I was married, and I feel like while women can have their issues, living with a bunch of dudes is difficult. And so it made me very excited to move out and live with my now wife. So that's the goal. I would do a budget. Have you ever done a budget where you lay it out in every dollar saying, okay, here's my income. Here's all of my bills. Here's what my bills might be when I'm on my own? That will give you so much peace to actually look at the facts versus just vibing, trying to go, do I feel like I could move out okay?

[Caller]

No. Yes. I haven't done that before. I've just. Yeah, exactly. Kind of. I figured it out, but haven't projected future expenses yet.

[George Camel]

Well, I'll hook you up with every dollar premium that's our budgeting tool that's going to help you map this income out. It'll connect your bank accounts, all of the trans will flow in. And I'm telling you, you sound like someone who wants to do things the right way. You want to follow the process. You want to make sure that the facts make sense, that the eyes are dotted, the T's are crossed and that's exactly what everydollar will help you do. So hang on the line. I will get you that budgeting app squared away. And I think move out date will be very soon. Probably by, let's see, we're currently in July. My guess is before the end of August, you are out of there. And so I would just have a little bit of urgency. Nothing again, nothing's on fire. But it would be cool, you know, especially in the fall. That's as people tend to start moving as you head towards September. And so that's when I would aim for to get a place of your own. Congratulations. You've done really well. Reid is in Denver. Up next, Reed, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[Caller]

Hi, George. Thanks for taking my call.

[George Camel]

Absolutely.

[Caller]

I have a question today about HSA investing.

[George Camel]

Sweet.

[Caller]

I have about $5,500 in my HSA and my deductible for my family plan is 6,000. The out of pocket maximum is 12,000. And I'm just trying to figure out at what point should I start investing some of that HSA funds in the market as opposed to just keeping it in cash.

[George Camel]

Yeah, that's a great question. I love that we're talking about this. And for those listening at home, they're like, what is he saying? It's a health savings account. And you access one if you have a high deductible health plan. And so it's a great way to save for medical expenses. And there's some really cool features of it that I'll get into read with. He probably already knows because this guy knows his stuff. What baby step are you on? Do you know?

[Caller]

We're on baby step four, five and six.

[George Camel]

Great. Out of debt. You got the emergency fund. You're investing. So here's the great news. If you are in baby steps one through three, the HSA is let's just put as much as we need in there to cover the medical expenses that may come up during the year. Once you hit baby steps 4, 5, 6, now we're in a different place. We can actually start contributing to this and investing some. And the place I would max it out no matter what is once you hit baby step seven, which is when you've got that paid for house. So right now, I love the idea of you guys having enough to cover at least your deductible and maybe shoot for that out of pocket max. You know, it might be a slower go because likely you're not going to use all of that money in a given year, right?

[Caller]

No, not at this point.

[George Camel]

Okay. Not a lot of health issues in the family?

[Caller]

Not right now, no.

[George Camel]

Praise God. Okay, this is good news. So here's what I would do. I would invest most of that money. There's a threshold. So, for example, in my HSA here at Ramsey, the threshold's a thousand dollars in cash. Anything above that I can invest into mutual funds, just like I could in an ira. So that might be your plan, is to move as much over there as you can be on the threshold and start investing to let that compound for you.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Camel]

And six grand is a great marker again, if you want to slowly contribute to it. Let's say you do, you know, 100, 200 bucks a month. You'll. You'll end up hitting that out of pocket max sooner rather than later. And are you guys. Do you have a home right now that you're working to pay off?

[Caller]

Yes. Yeah, we've got about eight years left on it.

[George Camel]

Fantastic. And here's the. Here's what I want to tell you, Reed. There's a really cool hack with the HSA that not a lot of people know about. And it's this. And here's what Dave Ramsey does as a great example. Dave Ramsey does not use his hsa. He does not use it to cover medical costs. He just leaves it sitting in there compounding. And he cash flows all the medical expenses from his checking account. Here's why that's great. It's going to compound. And at 65, it turns into a traditional IRA. So it's kind of a stealth IRA. And if you save your receipts, you can reimburse yourself at any time in your life. That's the current law. And you can actually take that money out against your HSA into your bank account. So that's what I've started doing with my family, is just cash flowing it. The tax advantages of the HSA are the best. There is no account like it. It's triple tax advantaged because the money is going in pre tax. It's going to then grow tax free and you can withdraw it tax free for qualified medical expenses. So I love that you're even utilizing this. Most people don't even know it exists. And so again, this is only for people who have a high deductible health plan. Then you can access that hsa. And Reed, you're doing a fantastic, fantastic job, man. How old are you?

[Caller]

Well, I'm 46. I mean, we've, we've got five kids and we've spent years getting to this point. You know, you have orthodontic work, which we've used the HSA on occasion for some of that. I know, you know, you could go with other routes, but we've needed to do that. And, and you know, all the kids have gotten their wisdom teeth pulled. Orthodontics are done. So at this point, I'm kind of looking and trying to figure out what's the risk, the best way to manage risk, but still get some investment growth and opportunity out of it.

[George Camel]

That's a great question. I would invest as much as you can. And it sounds like you guys are in a place where you could cash flow, that if there was an emergency, you can use the emergency fund and otherwise you can use the HSA if you need it. Great question.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[George Camel]

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[Caller]

How's it going? George, thanks for taking my call.

[George Camel]

Absolutely.

[Caller]

I trust on running the show solo.

[George Camel]

Appreciate that. I feel the same way. I can't believe they let me do

[Caller]

it a long time ago. Not A long time ago, about a year ago, I called in saying my brother, he kind of get access to my mom's money. He took it and trying to say, hey, be good, give it back. And so she wants to take him off the will and put everything onto me. And I don't know how to react to that.

[George Camel]

Sorry, you're breaking up on us. Bijou. Can you speak directly in your phone?

[Caller]

Yeah. Can you hear me better now?

[George Camel]

Yes. So let me recap. Your brother had access to your mom's money. I don't know what that means. Like access to her checking account, a credit card. And he made bad decisions. And now she's going, he can't be trusted. He's off the will.

[Caller]

Something like that. We had an account with my brother and my name in, and that was from my dad. And he just took it all. So that bothered her.

[George Camel]

So he did like a prodigal son move. And instead when he came running back, mom went, well, he's out of the will. No party for him.

[Caller]

Yeah, okay. Kind of, yeah.

[George Camel]

So she wants to take your brother off and give it all to you. Has she had this conversation with both of you?

[Caller]

Myself, from the both of us. Because she was like, hey, what you did wasn't right and it was never my money. So I couldn't really say anything. But he was like, kind of like, oh, they're both against me. And we don't know where he got the idea from. And because of that nasty attitude is why she's like, you know what? He doesn't deserve anything.

[George Camel]

Well, what you don't want here is this sort of triangulation where now you're the bad guy and he thinks that you're trying to connive your way into all of this money. That's not what's happening here. But it sounds like he can't take personal responsibility. He's not self aware enough to go, all right, I screwed the pooch and if I can't manage this, they're not going to give me more inheritance to then manage. Right?

[Caller]

Yeah, along that lines. It's just the house and because he's like, like a stubborn wall, my mom's like, this isn't getting anywhere and just take him off, man.

[George Camel]

Well, that puts you in a tough spot because either way, this relationship is soured. I don't know what it was like before this. It sounds like it wasn't great between you and your sibling, between your mom and him, but I don't want you to take this burden onto yourself of this is My fault. And I feel guilty taking this money. That money is your mother's to do wants with, correct?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

She could give it all to Salvation army instead of a dime to any of you, and that's her prerogative. Right.

[Caller]

And that's why she feels like she wants to do it this way, because that was taken away from her.

[George Camel]

What was taken away?

[Caller]

Like the ability to choose what she wants to do with my dad's life insurance money.

[George Camel]

So how much was actually spent? You said your dad passed, left this life insurance money, and you guys had access to it. I don't know how much that was. And he blew through it completely because

[Caller]

he's not talking to us. We don't know how much he spent. And I'll tell you some numbers. My dad's life insurance money was 96,000. And the account that my mom and dad had together was 40,000. So because he had gained access to those, and it wasn't like he did something shady, my mom asked him to close it. So that gave him access to the 40. And as I mentioned, we had our names on one account, so that's how we had access to 96. Wow.

[George Camel]

And it's gone?

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, he emptied it out and. And won't give it back to my mom.

[George Camel]

Emptied it out as in he spent it all or he moved it to his own account? Do we know what went on here?

[Caller]

Yeah, so I initially thought that he just moved it somewhere, probably better principle and stuff. But then when we tried to talk to him, he just, you know, gave us, like, a nasty attitude, so. And then one time told my mom that he spent some of it, and because he has more kids than I do and more expenses, we believe he ended up spending it all. But there's no communication to know for sure.

[George Camel]

So he's basically estranged at this point?

[Caller]

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Strange for me, for my mom, because he still has stuff at her, at her house. He'll come by, and it's really. It's really tense between the two of them.

[George Camel]

Yeah, I can see why she's taking him out of the will. I mean, he's not doing himself any favors here. I don't even know how he would expect to be left with anything at this point.

[Caller]

Yeah. When I called, Dave was like, just stay away from him.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Take it as a loss. And that's. That's what I told my mom. But she. She's really like, no, this wasn't right. And she's. And he's still kind of treating her wrong.

[George Camel]

Well, at this point, she's wanting to punish him, it sounds like. Yeah, that's her way. You know, there's a great line from an artist I Love, Steven Wilson Jr. Grief is only love that's got nowhere to go. And that's what's happening here. She's grieving the loss of her son relationally. And so this is like five stages of grief here. She's in anger mode, and she's going, well, you're not getting the house because of how you treated us and the way you spent dad's life insurance money. I mean, you guys have been through a lot.

[Caller]

Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. I didn't think of grief as one of them. I just looked at, like, oh, she's angry.

[George Camel]

I mean, she. She lost her husband, and now she's lost one of her sons, essentially.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

And so she's going through a lot. And so I think the best thing you can do here is just to be compassionate, to be empathetic, and go, mom, I'm happy to do whatever you want to with this money. I want to manage it. Well, I know there's an estranged relationship here, but what I need you to do, mom, is to have this conversation with him so that there are no surprises, so that I don't have to be the bearer of bad news after you pass one day going, oh, yeah, mom left it me, bro.

[Caller]

And so. So during some of those times where they're like, you know, going past each other because, like I said, he still got stuff at the house, she said this to him, and they just kind of yell at each other so he knows it's coming.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

I just don't know what to do because we're acting like the money's gone. It's only the house that's on the. On the table.

[George Camel]

What's the house worth?

[Caller]

A little over a million.

[George Camel]

Wow. Is it paid for?

[Caller]

New York Homes? Yeah. Yeah. No mortgage. They were really good. They paid off the house Lord knows how many years ago.

[George Camel]

Wow, that's. That's a great legacy. So when you inherit the house, is there plans to stay in it? Are you going to sell it? Do you know what you would do?

[Caller]

I tried to rent a house. I did. Really bad at it. So because of that, I don't want to go through that again, So I prefer just selling it. My wife said a suggestion of, why don't you give his kids the money? And I was like, I can. I can trust it to them. So that was a great idea from her. I Just don't, because he's not gonna get it. I'm a little afraid of what's gonna happen, and we're not talking.

[George Camel]

Well, you know, you give him an inch, he'll take a mile. So that's my fear. You go, well, I gave the kids 10 grand each. And he goes, you have a million, dude. You know, you're so greedy. And so you just gotta be ready for whatever happens next.

[Caller]

And because of that bad attitude, no matter what we give him, my mom knows it would never be enough because he feels like he's been done wrong by us.

[George Camel]

Yeah. And that's where I go, is it even worth it to. For you to step in and now sort of be like second dad to his kids? And, I don't know, your relationship with them, with your, you know, nephews and nieces. I'm sure you'd like to have a better one. It sounds like he wants to keep you away.

[Caller]

It was good until the problems happened.

[George Camel]

Yeah, man. So I haven't talked to him in, like, a year. That's one of those, like, we'll cross that bridge when we get there situations, which. I don't know how old your mom is and what health she's in. Is this a ways away?

[Caller]

So before my dad died, she had brain surgery because she had a gliomablastoma. Oh, wow. She's 82. So we don't. We don't really think she has that many years left.

Wow.

[George Camel]

Are you married?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Okay. I would at least get a game plan together with your spouse going, hey, when and if this happens, here's what we're going to do.

[Caller]

So my wife wants to stay far away from that house and property because of the bad juju, and I don't blame her. That's why when she said, give it to the kids, his kids, I was like, oh, good, good, good.

[George Camel]

Well, I mean, you can use that money because here's the deal. I don't know his kids from Adam, and so it's up to you to manage this money well. And if you want to be generous with it in whatever way you want to, that's great. But I don't want you to feel any obligation to go, well, the kids deserve half, because you know what's gonna happen, right? Dad's gonna swoop in and take the money from the kids.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[George Camel]

He's gonna go, that's my money. Now you've created a rift between him and his own children. So that's my fear here, is you medd this family could cause chaos. As much as you want to do the nice thing, it could backfire. It's like in traffic when you're trying to let someone in traffic and then you end up causing a different traffic jam and everyone's beeping at you because you were just trying to be a nice guy. It's kind of like that with this situation. It's very sticky, man. I would tread with caution and like Dave said, I would just try to remove myself as much as I can from this and just carry out your mom's wishes with wisdom. Thanks for the call.

[Caller]

Health insurance is confusing on purpose. You call one company, get transferred three

[George Camel]

times, sit on hold for 45 minutes

[Caller]

and end up more confused than when you started.

[George Camel]

That's why I recommend Health Trust Financial. They're health insurance advisors who actually get to know your situation and help you find the right coverage for your life and your budget. Healthcare needs change as your life changes. Maybe it's a job change, the birth of a child, a new diagnosis, or you're just trying to have more margin at the end of the month. No matter your situation, Health Trust Financial shops multiple times top rated insurance carriers and helps you understand what you're actually buying. I've trusted Health Trust financial for over 20 years because they help Ramsay fans

[Caller]

make smart health care decisions.

[George Camel]

Go to HealthTrustFinancial.com today and talk to a real person without pressure or confusion. That's HealthTrustFinancial.com. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel, Ramsey personality, co host of Smart Money Happy Hour, taking your calls at 888-825-5225. I wanted to take a second and talk about investing for your kids. I've been getting a lot of questions about these brand new Trump accounts that just launched on the 4th of July. And there's some confusion around it. There's some excitement around it. And I wanted to just clear the air, tell you what it is, what it isn't, and share a really cool loophole that could make your kid a multimillionaire. Now your ears are perked up here. So what is a Trump account? Well, it's not really all that political, so do not fear. Whether you're a Democrat, Republican, liberal, whatever you are, it's just a traditional IRA for your kids, nothing more than that. So any child under the age of 18 can have a Trump account and children who are US born citizens between January 1st of 2025 and December 31st of 2028 qualify for $1,000 of government funded starter deposit. So I had a kid in 2025 and lo and behold, I was as shocked as anyone that thousand bucks actually showed up in a Trump account. And here's the deal. Here's the deal. It is invested in a low cost index fund that is based on US stocks, which is actually pretty awesome. So you get to choose between a couple of those. Not a ton of flexibility, but I'm not mad about it. Here's the deal. This account is locked up until the kid turns 18. You can contribute up to $5,000 a year to this. And here's what I do like about it. You don't have to have earned income. My three year old doesn't have to go get a job in order to contribute to this like he would with a custodial Roth ira. So here's the problem. There is no basis on that seed. So let's say you, you get that thousand bucks at birth and we use our investment calculator to show you exactly what's happening here. So let's go age 0 to age 18, no monthly contributions and I just leave the thousand dollars invested. So the crew will pull that up. If you're watching on YouTube or Spotify, you can actually see this in action. And let's go with a 10% rate of return. So I'm going to leave the thousand bucks in there from birth. Great. My kid has $6,000 at the age of 18 sitting in a traditional IRA. Now here's what's interesting. If I just let that ride until let's say he's out of college to 23, that turns into 9,800 bucks. Not bad, right? You're going okay, almost 9,900 bucks. Now that's all taxable if he were to convert it over. So here's the loophole that will make my kid a multimillionaire if do it right. And I'm interested to try this out to be the guinea pig. My kid, once he's graduated, he's filing his own taxes independently, can pay the taxes on that 9900 to convert it to a Roth IRA. So at his tax bracket at 23 could be 12%. So that's about $1200 in taxes he would pay to now convert that 10 grand to Roth. Now let's see what happens from the age of 23 to the age of 65.

[Caller]

Life.

[George Camel]

We've got $10,000 growing tax free. The withdrawals are tax free. $650,000 that was off of $1,000 from the seed that the government put in. So now picture you're investing 100 bucks a month into this account. The numbers change dramatically and turn into millions, 3, 4, 5 million if you do it that way. So that is the one loophole I would say this account is good for. But I will not be using it for anything else. I will not be using it for education. And here's why. The tax treatment on this thing is not great. You're using after tax money and paying taxes on the way out. So there, that's where I would go to the 529 plan. If you want to invest for college, specifically the 529 plan is the winner here because it is after tax money, but then it's going to grow tax free and the withdrawals are tax free for college education. You really can't beat that. So we got the Trump account. That one's going to win for seating your kid's retirement. And that really is more of like a baby step, four, even seven, that's you're already investing 15% of your own income into your own retirement. You're putting money away for college. Do that before anything because college is wildly expensive. Your kid has plenty of time to invest for their own retirement. I'm more worried about the kid turns 18 and mom and dad didn't have a plan and now they want to go to the out of State School. That's $300,000. Now let's move on to the other piece. You got the 529 plan for education. You have the Trump account if you want to sort of precede your kid's retirement. Now what about everything in between? For me, I got a one and three year old. I want to be able to buy them their first car, pay for an awesome wedding, maybe even put a down payment on a house or even buy them a house in cash because lord knows what it's going to cost my one year old to buy a house at 25 or 30, probably a million dollars. So what I'm doing on that regard is investing in a taxable brokerage account. This is a non retirement account. It's in my name, me and my wife's name, a joint brokerage account so that it stays in my control. Here's what I like about this. I get to control the money with the other accounts out there. You've heard of like an utma, an ugma. The problem I have with those accounts is the child gets control at 18 or 21, depending on the state you're in. So picture that your kid at 18 or 21 has access to potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars that is not locked away in retirement. It is just money they can blow. That is a frightening scenario that I would like to avoid personally. So because of that, I do the brokerage account. I'm investing in there separately for my kids to be able to cover those things. So that's the starter pack on investing for your kids. Start with the 529 plan for education. If you want to get kind of launch package adult gifts like cars, weddings, home down payment, I would personally do a parent taxable brokerage account that stays in your control. And the other piece is some people have K through 12 expenses and that's where an education savings account can shine because that one can be used for K through 12 expenses. So the ESA can be a great option, but there's contribution limits and income limits on that versus the 529 plan. What's great about that? There's no income limits and there's essentially no contribution limit. So I love that account. And so if you need help with any of this, here's what you need to do. Work with a professional. Some of this stuff, you're like, I think I maybe can do it on my own. You're liable to screw it up. And so working with a qualified investment professional is the key. And if you want to find one that you can trust, you can go to ramseysolutions.com and click on Smartvestor Pro. These are investing pros that will guide you through all of this. And if you want more, like you want us to really nerd out on investing beyond just investing for your kids, because that's part of wealth planning legacy. We're going to be talking about this at a virtual event that Dave Ramsey and I have coming up called Investing essentials. It's a two night virtual event. September 1st and 2nd. We're going to walk through Dave's playbook for investing and wealth planning. We've done this. This might be the third time we've done it and we focused on real estate investing for night two. This time we're switching it up. Night one's going to be investing 101, 201, 301, and we're going to pack real estate investing at the tail end of that. And night two is going to be all about wealth planning. We don't talk about this enough. We always tell you guys, build wealth and then we don't really go further. We don't tell you how do you manage it, how do you use it? How do you spend it while you're alive in the smart way? How do you get the government's grubby hands off of it because the money you worked so hard for, you don't want to pay 40% in estate taxes when you pass away. How do you make sure it doesn't destroy your kids by handing them over $5 million when you pass, if you do it the Ramsey way. So we're going to be talking about all of that at Investing Essentials. You can sign up today. Tickets are 199 bucks, and it is worth it. That is hours and hours of content from Dave Ramsey and I live virtual event September 1st and 2nd. Go to Ramsey Solutions.com events or click the link in the show Notes if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. And a good caveat here, a lot of people call and they say, well, George, I don't know if I want to invest for college for my kid, because what if they don't go? And that problem doesn't happen as often enough as this scenario. Hey, my kid's 18. And we realized it's going to cost money to go to college and we don't have any. Yikes. Oh, and by the way, they've already chosen University of Iowa and it's $70,000 a year and student loans are the only option. This is where most families find themselves versus yeah, we, we have so much money in the college account, the kids didn't end up going. The good news is you can change the beneficiary on a 529 at any time to anyone in the general family. We're talking nieces, nephews, you know, your, your brother's daughter, whatever it is, you can change the beneficiary. And now With Secure Act 2.0, you can actually move a portion of that over to a Roth IRA if they don't use it. So as long as the account's been open for 15 years, you can move over up to the max of a Roth IRA for the year. This year it's 7500 bucks, up to a lifetime limit of 35 grand. So think about that. Your kid doesn't use it. At 22, you now have a retirement account set up for them to the tune of 35 grand, growing for the next 40 years. So if you want to leave an inheritance to your children's children, you want to do it the right way. There was a little primer for you, and I hope you can join us for investing. Essentially, go to ramseysolutions.com events. Hey, what's up, guys? It's Jade Warshaw. Now, I know a little something about saving money. While my husband and I were paying off over $460,000 in debt, we went over every expense in our budget to find ways to cut back. Nothing got a free pass, including our phones. And you need to be doing the same thing. And now with Boost Mobile, one of the easiest places for you to save money is your phone bill. Their unlimited plan is just $25 a month, forever. With a price that nice, why would you ever go back to your old carrier? And with Boost Mobile, there's no contracts, no hidden fees, and no surprises, which makes this a no brainer when it comes to saving money. The best part, you can keep your phone and your number when you switch. So it's not. You're making some huge lifestyle change. Listen, you need a phone, but you don't need to be overpaying every month. So whether you're paying off debt or building wealth or you just want to keep more of your money in your pocket, this is a win. Go to boostmobile.com Ramsey and make the switch today. That's boostmobile.com Ramsey $25 forever requires customers to remain active on Boost Mobile unlimited plan. Welcome back to the Ramsey show and the Fairwinds Credit Union Stud. I'm George Camel. I'm your host today riding solo. Give me a call at 888-255-2225 and I'll do my best to give you the right next step for your life and your money. Stephanie joins us in Boise, Idaho. Up next. What's going on? Stephanie?

[Caller]

Hey, how's it going? Thanks for having me on the show.

[George Camel]

Absolutely.

[Caller]

People around here that are just tired of me saying, oh, well, Dave Ramsey and Dave this and Dave that, are

[George Camel]

you using it as a cuss word or are they just tired of. Are you talking about the principles or what?

[Caller]

They're just tired of me saying, I can't go with you to the restaurant. I can't go here. I can't do that.

[George Camel]

Yeah, Dave is a pretty good excuse, I'll give you that.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So what's, what's going on financially?

[Caller]

Well, we are debt free. It's been two years now, and we haven't really moved the bar. You know, Dave says that you can go gazelle Intense and when you're debt free, you don't have to go as hard. And we took full advantage of that. And just looking back, wow, we did a lot to get here. And we're not really excited about Continuing to the point where we can own our own home someday. Like it's just, it just seems kind of impossible for us. The headlines, my husband works for a Christian non for profit organization. And it just.

[George Camel]

So you're feeling hopeless even so you worked really hard to become debt free and you thought, thought, oh my gosh, we're basically going to be living like billionaires once we're debt free. And here you are going, we can't even afford a home still, even without debt payments, that's where you're at.

[Caller]

Yeah. I wouldn't say I expected to be living like a millionaire, and I still don't. But the American dream is to own a home. And here we are.

[George Camel]

How old are you guys?

[Caller]

We're in our early 40s.

[George Camel]

So early 40s living near Boise. And you want to buy a home. What do homes around you cost? A reasonable home that you go, here's one that we want to buy.

[Caller]

Housing. Housing, I think on average for a starter home is around 350, I would say.

[George Camel]

And what do you guys make?

[Caller]

So a month, about 5,300 a year. Is 64.

[George Camel]

Okay, are both of you working outside then? Okay, you're staying home with the kids. So he's making 64 working for the Christian nonprofit. You guys are debt free. Do you have an emergency fund?

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[George Camel]

How much is in there?

[Caller]

We have our basic thousand dollars if we needed to. We have another thousand that we keep so that we could possibly go to continue our, our membership at the local gym.

[George Camel]

Okay, so you guys are in baby step three. You're now you're working on a three to six month emergency fund to stack on top of that starter thousand bucks. So what does a full emergency fund look like for you guys? Probably with one income, you might want to lean towards six months. So what is a month of expenses for you?

[Caller]

Our, our month of expenses? Well, with water, sewer, trash and, and power and gas, plus rent. And

[George Camel]

if I looked at your bank account, how much left that bank account in a given month?

[Caller]

How much is left over?

[George Camel]

How much left your bank account? Was it four grand in expenses and you had a thousand left over?

[Caller]

Oh, no, less than that. I mean we would probably have 500 left.

[George Camel]

Okay. Even without the debt payments?

[Caller]

Without any debt payments, that's correct.

[George Camel]

It sounds like you guys haven't done like a detailed every dollar budget where you could tell me, here's what's going on with every single dollar coming in, here's where it's going out.

[Caller]

We have a budget and we do our very Best to stay by it. We're not, you know, your valley Victorian student. We don't have. We don't use the everyday app. We probably should. We could probably cut things out like a Disney plus or.

[George Camel]

Well, that's what I was going to tell you. I just want to know before we get to. Yeah, woe is me. I will never own a home. I just want to know how much margin we're working with so we can get some accurate facts and figures here. Is it going to take you 10 years to save up for a house or could it be three if we got intentional? I think that's what's missing right now is you're sort of in a post debt free fog. You're tired, it's hard to stay gazelle intense through baby step three. It's far less exciting to stack cash and savings than it is to pay off debt and, you know, get rid of the student loans and credit cards. And so that is a very normal thing you're feeling. I want to encourage you that you're not crazy, Stephanie.

[Caller]

Thanks.

[George Camel]

You're not alone now. You guys make $64,000. That's not a bad income. And a $300,000 home, not a crazy home you guys are looking at. So now what we need to do is go. How much, what must be true for us to get into that home? How much do we need to actually have saved up? And the first thing you need to do is work on this emergency fund. So before you go doom scrolling Zillow, we need to go. How do we get 20,000 bucks in that bank account for a never go into debt again insurance plan? That's what that emergency fund is. So if you can put away $500, it's gonna take you a wild amount of time to save up 20 grand. Agreed.

[Caller]

I agree. And I'm willing to put in some effort here. Like if I need to get some kind of job. It kind of seems impossible as a stay at home mom.

[George Camel]

So when the kids are down, you're saying you'd be willing to go do a side hustle?

[Caller]

Absolutely.

[George Camel]

And you guys tag team and go. All right. I'm out for the night doing Instacart.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Is he willing to make some sacrifices to too?

[Caller]

Yeah, but I would rather be the one doing that. I think it's really important that dad's around. Okay, kids.

[George Camel]

Sure. So that's where I would make a game plan with your husband and go, hey, we've been. We've been doing great. We got debt free. Awesome. We're still a little bit sloppy with our money. We could do better to tighten things up. And so this weekend, a budget audit party is going to happen. You're going to use every dollar, and I'm going to give it to you for free. Would that convince you to use it?

[Caller]

It?

Sure.

[George Camel]

The problem with free is you go, I didn't pay anything for it, so who cares? I need you to act like you paid $100 for this thing and you have to use it.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Camel]

So once you list out your income,

[Caller]

I have a hard time with the seeking fund. Sorry to interrupt.

[George Camel]

Oh, it's all good. You have a hard time with sinking funds, like saving up over time?

[Caller]

Yeah, there's always seems there. There seems to always be something that I forget to add into the sinking funds or, you know, things are constantly changing with prices going up and so.

[George Camel]

Well, we can help with that. Once you're in everydollar premium, you can actually access a free one on one coaching call with an everydollar pro on our team. So I want you to get on there and talk to, you know, Nate, and he's going to say, all right, Stephanie, let's actually look at your budget. Let's see where the sinking funds are. Let me help you set these up and help you understand how to handle variable expenses. So that's all part of it. So hang on the line. I'm going to gift that to you to help you get out of this fog. Because when I'm in a fog, sometimes I just need to look at the facts. Sometimes it's just all emotions and exhaustion, and when you look at the paper, you go, oh, we have like 2, 000 bucks we could actually throw if we got serious. That's 24 grand a year. That's 50 grand in two years. That sounds like a down payment on a home in Boise. That's where I want you guys to get to put it on paper, make the goal, make it real, make it visceral, and you guys will be homeowners in no time. Business owners know it costs money to make the phone ring. Maybe it's advertising, maybe it's referrals, maybe it's years of earning trust. But when that call goes unanswered, all that work can disappear in a hurry. And that's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O, the business phone system built so you never miss a call. With Quo, you and your team share one business number so you can reply faster and stay on top of every customer conversation. Quo Works from your phone or computer, logs calls, summarizes conversations, and gives you next steps. Nothing gets missed and every customer gets a response. And here's what I really like. Quo's built in AI agent can answer questions, handle after hours calls, and even help book appointments. So you're not losing leads just because your team is offline. You didn't start a business to spend your days playing phone tag and digging through texts. Quo helps make sure you don't ghost the customers you've worked so hard to attract. Money is on the line, so always say hello with Quo. Try quo for free. Plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.comramsey that's q u-o.comramsey. Stephen is in Dayton. Up next, Stephen, welcome to the Rams show.

[Caller]

Thank you. George, how are you doing?

[George Camel]

I'm doing great, man. How can I help today?

[Caller]

Good. Good. Hey, I am 18 and I kind of been in the cattle business here for like two years. Got in back in 24 when there was pretty good profit in it. And now if you've bought hamburger recently, you know what what beef's like.

[George Camel]

And I grilled out for the fourth. I'll tell you, that was a. That was an expensive part.

[Caller]

Yeah. Thanks for buying it. Oh, yeah. So back in 24, I was wanting to get into it. I was only 16, and my dad got an operating loan for me. I bought 200 head of baby calves, like two days old, fed them milk and took them up to 15 months. Sold them for a good profit. And I'm on my second batch now. And it's costing a whole lot more, obviously now get baby calves went from cost and $100,000 to fill a barn to $250,000 to fill a barn.

[George Camel]

Now what was the cause of that? I'm not in the loop on the economics of cattle.

[Caller]

Shortage of cattle in the United States. And consumers just keep eating beef and it's crazy.

[George Camel]

Just too much demand, not enough supply. Economics 101. Okay?

[Caller]

Yep.

All right.

So now the numbers are tight and. But my real question is I'm selling these cattle in October and making a pretty good profit on them. And I could buy another group then for this high cost. 100 or, well, 250,000 or so to fill. And that would be on borrowed money. I would make quite a bit more money than if I went this other route. But another opportunity came up where I could custom feed for a few fella and have zero overhead. He would buy the calves, he'd deliver the feed, but I Wouldn't make near as much money. I would simply be making a barn payment, not much more. And wondered what your thoughts on that was.

[George Camel]

Man, I'll tell you, this is definitely the first call I've taken on, can I borrow money to buy my own cows? I look at it this way. If this was real estate, we would go, no, don't, don't leverage yourself to your eyeballs. Going to buy houses, hoping to flip them. Right, Right. I understand that's a very different scenario. These are living organisms. But still the principle applies that leveraging yourself for anything, especially business, is very risky. Especially as, you know, something as volatile as cattle farming, ranching, whatever it may be. So the question I want to give to you as an 18 year old who has a very bright future ahead of him. I don't even know if you had a childhood. I think you just like came out of the womb going, all right mom, I'm gonna start milking those cows over there. But what does it look like five years from now for 23 year old Steven to be completely debt free running this business to where every single piece of profit comes home to him instead of out to a lender?

[Caller]

Well, that'd be pretty awesome. Obviously.

[George Camel]

So what must be true, it probably means going slower, right?

[Caller]

Yes. Right.

[George Camel]

Moving at the speed of cash.

[Caller]

Yeah. A ten year. Well, but you see, cabs cost 1500 bucks piece.

[George Camel]

Okay. How much money do you have? You said you made a pretty penny off that first batch.

[Caller]

I made about 60,000 off that first batch.

[George Camel]

Where did that go?

[Caller]

And invested into the next group.

[George Camel]

Okay, so you have some now?

[Caller]

Yes, I have a group now. I'll sell in October and my question is whether I should buy another group in October and, and probably make around the same amount of profit or if I should custom feed for this fella and I would be making about 35,000 a year doing that versus about 60,000 buying them myself and taking the risk

[George Camel]

for the same amount of effort.

[Caller]

Considerably more effort doing it if I own them.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

I have to mix all the feed and everything. They deliver feed so it's an easier task.

[George Camel]

But you're cutting your pay in half.

[Caller]

That's correct. But also simply make my barn payment. My Barn payments like 28,000. So it would simply make my barn payment not a whole lot more. Yeah.

[George Camel]

I want to see you. I mean, you're so talented. I think you can thrive and make good money doing this. The question is, if you split the difference when. Okay. With the cash that I have on hand from the profit, how Much can I buy? Like, do you need a barn full at a time or can you go, all right, I got 60 grand. I'm going to take that. 60 divided by 1500, that's 40 head.

[Caller]

Well, but 40 head, the profit on 40 head wouldn't near make the barn payment.

[George Camel]

What's the barn payment?

[Caller]

It's like 28,000 a year.

[George Camel]

Are you doing any work outside of this or is this your full time gig?

[Caller]

I work, I work about 30 hours a week. Make about 50,000 a year at that. Doing actually at Herdsman Cattle Management for this company. I'd be custom feeding stuff for.

[George Camel]

That's. If you move to the custom feed.

[Caller]

That's. No, I do that now.

[George Camel]

Okay, so you're making 50 grand on top of any profit.

[Caller]

I'm thinking about my, my barn here going ahead and being one of their, one of their growers instead of what I'm already doing, what my dad's been doing all his life.

[George Camel]

Well, it sounds like your dad was, was going into debt and it worked out for him. That's correct at the time. But the times have changed. Now you're talking more zeros on the end, more risk. I mean, all you need is one mad cow disease spread and all of a sudden you're screwed.

[Caller]

Yeah, right.

[George Camel]

So that, that's my fear with you leveraging yourself, especially at 18. And so this is, this is your homework, is you know this business a thousand times better than I do. You sit down and say, okay, how. What's the best path for me to scale this thing completely debt free with the cash that I have on hand? And that might mean year one, year one, you made 20,000 profit. Year two, two you had 40,000 in profit, you doubled what you could buy. Year three, you scaled up to 80. And so over time, think about where you'll be at 21 if you do this completely debt free versus well, I made some money, but then I had to pay back the loan. So it's really not as sexy as it seems. Once you actually do the math on this and factor in the risk, which is kind of hard to factor in on paper.

[Caller]

Right? Yeah, risk is super hard to factor. That. That's the problem is there's no doubt if I, if I borrow the money and do it all myself, my own cows, there's more profit. Because the guy that I'm growing them for, he's got a, I mean, he's got to own them. He's got to make some money on them too.

[George Camel]

Yeah. So what would give you more? Definitely what would give you more? Could you do the custom feed, make 35 grand a year on top of your job?

[Caller]

Mm.

[George Camel]

Is that what would happen?

[Caller]

And then, then eventually I'd like to get back into buying them myself if I could stack up enough cash for that.

[George Camel]

Exactly. And so that's where I'm going. What can you do now to stack up enough cash to where you could, a hundred grand or two hundred grand in cash to basically now restart this business completely debt free, where you're on top of it instead of behind it. That's the key.

[Caller]

But if I was going to keep doing what I had been doing, I would get there faster.

[George Camel]

Well, that's the problem. I mean, you can get rich quick all day long until you lose it all. Everyone's a genius at the blackjack table until they get a bad hand. And so that's, that's my fear for you, especially at 18. Like the risk meter hasn't really developed yet because you're not. You don't have like a family, I'm guessing that's relying on this, right?

[Caller]

I live at home.

[George Camel]

Yep, exactly. And so there are risks you can take. I would not do that with debt. I'm gonna place the bet on Steven instead of on this pile of debt to get these calves. And so I want you to go, I know I could make more money faster, but is it worth the risk? Because I don't want you calling back in going, I took out a loan for $200,000 and it didn't work out. Now what do I do?

[Caller]

Yeah, right.

[George Camel]

That's a much scarier scenario. And it's the ones we get on the show. If everything worked out perfectly, the Ramsey show would not exist. This show only exists because everybody's plans didn't go to plan, right?

[Caller]

Yep.

[George Camel]

So as an 18 year old, whatever it is for any 18 year old watching out there, there is so much you could do to make so much money so fast. The question is, is it worth your piece? Is it worth your sanity? Is it worth the risk? And that's so much harder to factor on, on paper than using your iPhone calculator to go, I can make quarter million dollars in the next two years. It's okay if you go slower. No one's forcing you to make money. You seem to live a pretty simple life. Like you don't have a crazy lifestyle. You don't have debt in any other area.

[Caller]

That's the point. No, I don't. Just these, this, this cattle project.

[George Camel]

So you're living at home.

[Caller]

I mean, It' lifestyle. I want to. I want to be at home eventually raise a family at home. And that's how I was raised. It's just. Just been awesome for my dad and his family. And I'd like to do the same thing. And I just.

[George Camel]

I love it. Well, here's the deal. Do the math on if I just work for someone else full time, even extra, and just stacked up cash, living at home with almost no bills, how much could I save in 12 months and 18 months in 24 months and move at the speed of cash and your life will be so much better. Hang on the line. I'm going to send you Dave's book. Build a business you love. We're going to walk through this whole process and show you how to scale this thing the right way. Appreciate the call. A lot of banks are happy to hold your money, but Fairwinds Credit Union helps you make progress. Most people spend years focusing on their financial goals and never stop to ask whether their bank is helping them get there or just holding onto their money. The real goal is building an emergency fund, paying cash for your next car, car, saving for a home, looking at your finances and actually feeling some peace. That's why I love Fairwinds. Their Smart Bundle gives you up to 10 free high yield savings accounts to help you stay organized as you save for different goals, plus early direct deposit and no monthly fees. And you get support from real people who want to help you win with money. You can even get the Ramsey Debt is normal Beweird debit card which is linked to your free Farewell Spend Smart checking account to tell the world you think differently about money. So look, if you're working the baby steps, your bank should be helping you move toward financial freedom, not just park your cash. Go to Fairwinds.org Ramsey to open your Smart Bundle and start making Progress today. That's Fairwinds.org Ramsey insured by the NCUA. Rosanna's in Chattanooga. Up next. What's going on, Rosanna?

[Caller]

Oh, well, my husband told me I should call you up to this. Well, I wanted to do it, but I wasn't gonna do it because I wasn't sure if he's gonna be okay with having our financial information on YouTube for the whole world.

[George Camel]

Too late now, Rosie. Anna, we're too. We're too invested in this.

[Caller]

He told me to call you. So then I figured, I guess it's good. But, yeah, he thinks I spend too much on groceries and he thinks maybe we should sell our house because he thinks that's why we're broke is because we bought a house. We did do 100% financing. Well, we did like a. My dad paid for the property with cash and he put it in our name. So then when we went to get a mortgage, we could do refinance from cash, which my dad did it that way for to help us out.

[George Camel]

So he paid for it in cash. Do you owe on it or was it a gift for you guys?

[Caller]

Well, we were supposed to pay him back, but he wanted. That was the deal that we're going to get a mortgage then to and give him. But he said if you can't. So we still owe him about $30,000. Because when we went to do the refinance from cash, the then they didn't give us all the money that he had paid for it.

[George Camel]

Well, sure. They're not going to give you 100% of the home equity.

[Caller]

Right, right. So we still owe him about 30,000.

[George Camel]

Okay. So you got 40,000 and I'll call it a mortgage to your dad. Yeah, that sounds fun. Okay, what else?

[Caller]

And we have about 12,000 in credit card debt.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

And about 1100 in medical debt, which is. That's our smallest debt in our debt snowball right now. So I'm trying to make extra payments on that.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

And I owe my aunt about $3,000 because she was. Helped us out after we had a baby. She was like a maid for us. So I'm still paying on that and that's pretty much it. Besides the mortgage.

[George Camel]

Okay. So I'm going to call that about $16,000 in consumer debt and then this sort of mortgage thing to your dad.

[Caller]

Yep.

[George Camel]

So did you guys get financing?

[Caller]

Yes, yes, we did. We. Our mortgage, the balance on it is like $135,794.

[George Camel]

On the mortgage?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Okay, I'm confused. You owe your dad 40, 30.

[Caller]

Yeah, 30,000. We still owe him, but after we

[George Camel]

got the mortgage on top of 135 that you owe the lender, you owe dad 30?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

That feels like a lot of money going out the door. What do you guys make? What's the household income?

[Caller]

It's between 4400 to 5700 months.

[George Camel]

Okay. It's variable. Do you both work outside the home?

[Caller]

No, I'm a stay at home mom. I home, school, children.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

I am trying to get, I did all the like the initial stuff to get signed up to be do legal transcription, but I didn't actually, I haven't actually started doing that yet, but I'm hoping I Can make a little extra money that way.

[George Camel]

Okay, well, I'm worried. I mean, I feel like AI's got that one covered at this point. They're going to take that, all those, you know, voices and turn them into text. So hopefully you can make some money. But if you can find something to do that'll help. The income isn't necessarily the problem here. You guys can knock out, you know, making 5,700amonth. We can knock out 16,000 in debt within a year easily. But he's saying, back to the original question. He thinks you're overspending on groceries and therefore we need to sell the house. That was a far jump.

[Caller]

Well, well, he thinks the house and the groceries are the two reasons why we're, why we're broke.

[George Camel]

I guess I think he needs to look in the mirror and go, I think me and you are the reason we're broke, honey. The house ain't got nothing to do with it. The house is an inanimate object. It's an amoral being. So, yes, decisions were made. What is this house worth?

[Caller]

Around 175,000.

[George Camel]

Okay, so you pretty much owe 100%. You barely got any equity in this thing. Okay, Right. Well, do you like the house?

[Caller]

Oh, yeah, it's perfect.

[George Camel]

Okay. I mean, I don't think. What's the house payment? Between the house payment and what the payment you're making, your dad, what does that add up to?

[Caller]

Well, my dad, we're not currently making payments to him. He's, he said, you know, we should pay him when we can. So we're feeling pretty broke right now. So we haven't been making payments on that.

[George Camel]

So he's fine to get paid down the line. And that's just kind of a personal loan. So what's the mortgage payment?

[Caller]

Yeah, the mortgage payment is $1,340.59.

[George Camel]

Okay. So that's, you know, that's not a far cry from our 25% parameter. You know, we say 25% of your, your after tax income going towards the mortgage. So that's 5200 bucks in take home pay covers you. You said you make 5,700 on a high month, 44 on a low month. So we'll call that good. The house payment is not the thing causing you guys to be broke. I think we don't have a lot of unity here about what we're doing with the money. And so your husband just sees the grocery bills and goes, oh my gosh, you're spending like you're In Congress with these groceries.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

What do you spend a month on groceries?

[Caller]

Well, I, I mean, it'd be good to have at least 2,000amonth. And when we have eight people.

[George Camel]

You got six kids.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Goodness. Goodness. That's a lot of mouths to feed. How many bedrooms is this house?

[Caller]

It's three bedrooms.

Wow.

[George Camel]

You got them stacked to the ceiling on these bunk beds.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah.

[George Camel]

You got three kids to each, to each room, and then you got your own.

[Caller]

Yep. Well, I, Yeah, we have one. We only have one girl. The others are boys. And the two other two bedrooms are. The master bedroom is a nice size, but the other two are really small.

[George Camel]

Okay. I was just intrigued. Just the visual of that was. Was shocking. Okay, so you got eight mouths to feed. So $2,000 in today's world doesn't sound absurd. Where are you shopping for groceries?

[Caller]

Well, I mostly end up doing Walmart because that's the best thing that's close by me. I like to, we garden a lot and I like to try to buy my food direct from the farmer, like if I can, or from, you know, but that often ends up being more expensive. So I don't always, you know, I can't always do that.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Well, I think you guys tonight or this weekend sit down and actually make a budget. Does he actually see an every dollar budget where he can see every single line item to see where every dollar is going?

[Caller]

Well, I make one. I, I have a budget. I use it all the time. But he doesn't really want to bother looking.

[George Camel]

But it's your little secret. It's just your personal thing. And if you said, hey, you can look at the budget. He doesn't care.

[Caller]

Yeah, I try to show it to him, but he just, he's just like, oh, whatever. He doesn't. Yeah, he doesn't want to pay attention to it. Math makes his brain freeze up and so he can't. He doesn't.

[George Camel]

Well, I think there's a compromise here. I think he's just feeling the emotions of he's going to work, and then a third of or almost a half of his income is gone to Walmart.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Camel]

So mathematically speaking speaking, this is a problem that half your income is going to groceries on top of the mortgage, on top of, on top of, on top of. And then there's the debt payments. And so you guys need to break this cycle and go. Right. There's going to be a season where things, it's going to be PB and J's all around kids because mom and dad need to clean up some medical debt. We got to pay back aunt salary, we got to cut up these credit cards. So there's going to be a season of pain. But I want you guys to not look at each other as the village. I want you guys to look forward to the future and go, this is why we're doing this. Here's what the future holds. If we do this the right way and then we don't have to sell the house. All because. Because that's not going to fix the issue. You're still gonna have two grand in grocery bills if you sell the house.

[Caller]

And we're gonna have to pay at least. I mean, to rent a house for a family this size is gonna cost more than 1300amonth.

[George Camel]

Yeah, I mean, I'm telling you, the mortgage is not the issue. That is not what's on fire here. There's just a lack of unit and he's coming home exhausted and you're exhausted and taking care of six kids. I can't imagine both of you are. You're carrying some burdens here and I don't want you to make yourselves the enemies. But I do think we need to look in the mirror and go, it's not the groceries fault. Don't blame this on Walmart. Let's blame this on a lack of being on the same page. We gotta look at the budget. He's gotta look at it and at the same time he's looking at it. You gotta go, yeah, I could probably trim that down to 1300 if I got a little more intentional and just wasn't just shop until I dropped like Supermarket Sweep. So there is a solution here. And I'm going to hook you up with every dollar premium. That is our budgeting app. It's going to connect your bank account, give you a customized plan, personalized recommendations. So hang on the line, Emily's going to pick up and that will be my gift to you to hopefully solve the crisis. If you've worked hard to keep your car running, the last thing you want is stress when you're running the kids all over to summer activities or loading up the family for a well earned vacation. That's why I trust Christian Brothers automatically.

[Caller]

Motive.

[George Camel]

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[Caller]

Thank you. George, how are you?

[George Camel]

I'm doing great. How can I help?

[Caller]

So my wife and I are in baby step two. We just bought our first house just about a year ago and we are trying to figure out if we should be tackling our debt or if we should save up a larger emergency fund other than the thousand dollars before we start tackling our debt or if we should try and split the difference between the two.

Wow.

[George Camel]

How much debt do you guys have?

[Caller]

We have, I have 26,000 in student loans and she has 42,000 in student loans. And we have a loan, a deferred interest loan for a crawl space encapsulation.

[George Camel]

Crawl space encapsulation. Okay. How much is that?

[Caller]

That is 11,000. Okay.

[George Camel]

And you said it's deferred interest?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Okay, what does that mean?

[Caller]

Right now it is interest free during probation period, two years. The interest Would hit for the full year. Correct.

[George Camel]

Okay. This is like going to Best Buy and buying the washer dryer. And if you don't pay it off perfectly to a T, they back charge you all the interest.

[Caller]

Correct.

[George Camel]

All right, so total, we have a good 79,000 bucks in consumer debt.

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

All right, what's the household income?

[Caller]

We make about so 135 a year. Take home per month is around 9,000.

[George Camel]

9,000. Are you guys doing any investing right now?

[Caller]

We actually just stopped all our savings and investings and to actually do the

[George Camel]

Ramsey plan, you're like, all right, we're going to go for it. Fantastic. So you got a thousand bucks, you're starting this debt snowball process. You're making 135, 9k take home. And you want to know, should we have a beefier emergency fund? Because we're homeowners and there's going to be emergencies that come up and we don't want to go back into debt to cover it.

[Caller]

Yes. And we've actually just gotten some news from family that my wife's grandmother's health is deteriorating quicker than we were expecting and she is in Uruguay. So we are trying to at least bare bones plan for that expense.

[George Camel]

Wow, what's that gonna cost?

[Caller]

Round trip? Last time we looked was around $3,000,

man.

[George Camel]

I mean, that's a very personal thing. So I can't tell you one way or another, but I would, I would tread with caution here. To drop three grand to be there for the funeral. Again, I don't know. The relationship. Relationship. If you have to do this and it's a big deal to your wife and the family, then you can do it. But know that going into debt is not an option.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Camel]

So there's going to be sacrifices made there because right now, looking at this, the income and the debt, it's going to be tight. And you could do this in two years or less if you guys got serious. And part of this is this deal of homeownership being expensive. Is this house in good shape or is it like there's 17 things that need to be fixed?

[Caller]

No, it's in good shape. The crawl space was really the big thing that we wanted to get taken care of because of some moisture problems, especially in the area.

[George Camel]

Okay, well, how about this? Let's split the difference. I'm not going to tell you to save nothing for this house. What I'm going to have you do is create a sinking fund in your everydollar budget called home repair and maintenance. And every month you might put in, let's say $200 so that by the end of the year you got 2,400 bucks in there ready to tackle any home emergencies, plus your thousand dollars.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Camel]

And then whatever comes up in the meantime, or if it's not enough, that's when we go, right? Pause the debt snowball. We gotta stack up cash. We're gonna work our butts off, sell some things to cover the emergency and then move forward. Okay, but I wouldn't just pause the debt snowball and go stack up 20 grand. Because you want to do baby step three before two, right? The beauty of baby step one, two, three is that baby step one forces you to be a little bit scared, to kind of stay on your toes to go, we are not safe. $1,000. Goodness gracious. What if life happens? Yeah, that's going to put some fuel to get out of this debt faster. Because what I've seen is, Andrew, people get 20 grand saved up and they get a little bit comfortable, they go, we'll get rid of the debt. We don't need Gazelle Intensity. I mean we're, you know, something comes up, we're going to be okay. I like that fueling you. It's what actually causes people to get out of debt. And I think the same will be true for you guys. But you're thinking through this very logically.

[Caller]

Now.

[George Camel]

If we could go back in time with a magic wand and a time machine, I would say maybe we shouldn't buy a house when we have $80,000 in consumer debt. But what's done is done. So the best move forward is to at least attack this debt as fast as possible. You guys make great incomes and it tells me your TR trajectory for your careers is also great. So what is the next move up? How do we make 150, 160 to get rid of this debt even faster so that we can have the emergency funds. So that when something like this comes up where there's, you know, a health scare in the family or even a death, that we can just cover it. And on top of the grief, we don't always, we don't also have the debt payment. So that's the, the beauty of the Ramsey plan. Baby Step, $1,000 starter emergency fund. Baby Step 2, pay off all of your consumer debt non mortgage debt using the debt snowball method. Smallest to largest balance, ignoring the interest rate. Then we get to baby step three, three to six months of expenses in a fully funded emergency fund. Now we can start building for the future. Instead of paying for the past with baby step four, invest 15% of your income into retirement. I love that you guys Pause that. That's the goal. Pause it to zero. To create as much margin and momentum as possible possible to get out of debt in a reasonable amount of time. Instead of it taking six years, then we can focus on kids college savings if you have them. Then we can pay off the house and beautifully. We can live and give like no one else and just build wealth to oblivion, leaving an awesome legacy. That's the plan. There's a reason it is in that order because too many people are doing 19 things at once wondering why they're not making progress. So I'm wishing you guys the best, Andrew on this debt payoff journey. Welcome back to the Ramsey show and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm George Camel taking your calls at 888-825-5225. Matthew is in Buffalo, New York up north next. Matthew, welcome to the show.

[Caller]

Hey George, how you doing?

[George Camel]

I'm doing great, man. How are you?

[Caller]

Not too bad.

So my question for you is do

we sell the farm to live debt free?

[George Camel]

Wow, that's a big one. Whose farm? Who's we?

[Caller]

So it's my wife and I. We're in our early 30s. We just welcomed our fourth kid.

[George Camel]

Congrats.

[Caller]

Thank you.

We both have jobs.

I work full time, she works part

time but as close to full time hours. And we have a lot of equity in obviously the farm and piece of land and then all the farm equipment and assets. We're currently on baby step two. We've been doing the baby steps for at least probably about the last year. Here. Shout out to my brother and his wife for getting us bought in. They're on baby step five.

[George Camel]

That's awesome.

[Caller]

And I don't know if I'm trying to be too perfect with my financials now, but I'm just in the mood to get rid of everything. And going through the numbers, I figure I have around 800,000 in equity if we sold everything and that would allow my wife to be a stay at home mom and just live off of my income. But I don't know if we just waited out these next two, three years and kind of of just get through everything or do we just make the lifestyle change and rip the band aid off right now.

[George Camel]

How much debt do you guys have?

[Caller]

So we have 20,000 left on her student loans and then the only other debt is going to be our mortgage on our house and then we do have some debt on a piece of land.

[George Camel]

So to break down, is that separate from the farm?

[Caller]

No, that is the farm's paying for the land. So I know Dave tries to keep business away from personal, but it's hard because, because the farm is our house and a way too. But we have a separate piece of land that just the farm pays for.

[George Camel]

Okay, and are you guys working, is the farm your income or are you guys doing other full time jobs?

[Caller]

Other full time jobs. The farm just pays for farm stuff. And then basically this piece of land, it doesn't really contribute.

[George Camel]

You're just sort of breaking even with this farm.

[Caller]

Well, the farm makes between I would say 20 to 30,000 every year and that goes to pay the debt for

that piece of land.

So I figure in three, three years that land will be paid.

[George Camel]

Okay, so it's servicing the debt, but no more. It's not like you're making a bunch of profit. I lost you, Matthew. I think we lost your line. It was a juicy call. We'll see if we can get you back. I'll leave you here live. But I want to address this. You're in your 30s. Baby step two. 20,000 in student loans. The rest is sort of this land and mortgage. You got 800 grand equity. I don't know what the house is worth. That's the next question mark. If this thing is worth, you know, a million two or if it's worth 900,000. And what the, what this would do for you? Because it sounds like he has two competing goals here. One is love this house, love this farm, love doing this life. And also I would love for my wife to be home. So there's sort of a, a struggle of priorities, if you will, to figure out which one is more important to you. And here's my parameter for this. If you guys can be debt free within a couple years and then your income can support her staying home at that point, then I think we don't need to sell the farm. If you love, if your dream is she stays at home and we keep the farm, there's going to be some deep deeper sacrifices there. But if you guys are making great money on your own and you can support it, then I fully support you guys keeping the farm. I would say the farm is more of a like last ditch effort break in case of emergency. We have run out of options. There's some urgency to this happening and we don't mind letting go of this sort of dream of living on the farm. That's where I might do that. So let's see if we have them back on the line. Matthew, are you with us?

[Caller]

This.

Yes. Sorry, I'm not sure what happened there.

[George Camel]

It's all good. Did you hear anything I said?

[Caller]

I did. So the equity in The House is 8 or 500,000. Being conservative with all my numbers. Okay, the house. The house with the barns and all that, I would say 500,000. If we sold the land, we'd have at least another hundred in equity. So I figure we'd have 800,000 to basically go out and buy a house. And then the wife could.

[George Camel]

You said 500 plus 100 hundred, that's 600.

[Caller]

Yes.

Because then 200,000 in just the farm equipment and stuff like that.

[George Camel]

Oh, if you sold all of the equipment on top of. Okay, so that's not really equity in the land, it's just more. We could liquidate these assets that are sort of tied to it. So you could walk away with $800,000. Would you look to buy a place in cash at that point?

[Caller]

Yes, correct. That's the only option I would do is total cash.

[George Camel]

So now how much do you make?

[Caller]

I make 120,000 a year.

[George Camel]

Great. So now the question becomes, can she stay home if you have no mortgage payment and you make 120 grand a year?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Ding, ding, ding. So that's one option. Let's explore that. Now let's explore the other option, which is we stay on the farm. If you guys love it, we pay everything off. How long would that take

[Caller]

to take?

Well, her student loans will be paid off by the end of the year and then the land. So then for the family, the only thing left we would have is the mortgage.

Mortgage.

[George Camel]

And how much is that?

[Caller]

3,000amonth. And what does she mean taxes, insurance? Around 70,000 a year.

[George Camel]

Okay, well, here's the problem we have is we have.

[Caller]

Oh God.

[George Camel]

I'm just, I'm looking at the, the mortgage here going. Okay, it's not really producing income. Three grand a month. You're talking about needing 12 grand to be about a quarter of your take home pay. And just your income alone. You're not taking home 12 grand. It's going to be more like eight grand.

[Caller]

Yeah, so that's.

Yes, exactly. 100% is basically by the time you take the taxes and the insurance and stuff. That's what makes the mortgage payment go up, which is why it's kind of either sell it all or you just keep going with how things are. And the problem is, is right now we do have the four kids in Daycare and, like, money back, right? Yep.

[George Camel]

You'll get a $10,000 raise once you get those kids out of daycare. That'll be nice.

[Caller]

More than that. But, yeah, I guess the hard part is, is you just kind of take away the whole lifestyle and just go for something totally different.

[George Camel]

But are you guys gonna live in the big city? Is this like a reverse Hallmark movie? What's gonna happen happen?

[Caller]

No, we would just live. Instead of having 60 acres, you'd have 5 or 10 acres, and you just don't have all the toys and all the craziness that comes on with this lifestyle.

[George Camel]

Well, what does she want to do?

[Caller]

Oh, that's a trick question. She really does want to stay home. She says she just wants me to be less stressed and whatever will make life comfortable for everybody.

[George Camel]

Are you stressed now because it's a lot of upkeep to keep up this farm, work full time, all of that.

[Caller]

Yeah.

I would say it's not her student

[George Camel]

loan payments that's causing the stress is what I'm getting at.

[Caller]

No, no. Money is for the. Well, for the first time in our life, money is not really the concern we have. We're strict on the budget. We're not. Nobody's knocking on the door. And like I said, in three years, we'll have all the debt wiped away besides the mortgage. So it's one of those you just kind of stick to the plan and just stick to the process and just kind of let it take its course, or do you just kind of go full throttle and just wipe it all out and kind of move forward in a different direction?

[George Camel]

Well, I'm leaning towards selling the farm. It sounds like her goal is peace in your household instead staying home. I didn't hear anywhere in there that she dreamt of living, you know, this. The farmer lifestyle. So I would have a deep conversation with her. Maybe you two go on a date and decide once and for all which decision are we going to make peace with.

[Caller]

Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here.

[George Camel]

Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and

[Caller]

figure out what to do next. Now, you can get that same kind

[George Camel]

of help anytime with Ask Ramsey.

[Caller]

Ask your money question and get answers

[George Camel]

built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just

[Caller]

want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use.

[George Camel]

Go to ramseysolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's ramseysolutions.com. You know, one of the hardest parts about building wealth is that you always feel like you're behind. If I talk to a 45 year old, they're always going, man, I wish I knew this stuff at 25. If I talk to a 25 year old, they're going, I feel like I'm behind. And I always go, compared to who? And that's where they get kind of stumped. They just go, I don't know. I just, I look at everyone else and I think they're doing better. So I want to talk about what better looks like, how to actually manage it, how to actually track it. Because some people are looking at the wrong, wrong thing. They're looking at their credit score, hoping that goes up, thinking, well, that's going to mean I'm doing great with money. It means absolutely nothing except you're great at managing your debt. You can be great at managing debt and have nothing to show for it. Your net worth. So that's the scary part. So what is the number you should focus on to know if you're doing well financially, if you're growing, if you're moving in the right direction? It's your net worth. So let's talk about this. How does your net worth compare to the average American? I have the data to show you guys so you can know where you stand. Again, this is not a moral judgment. You're not a bad person if you have a lower net worth than the average. You're not better than anyone if you have higher than the average. This is just to help you guys know kind of where you stay in. Am I even in the right ballpark? And on top of the national data, which spoiler alert is the suck bar, I'm going to give you the Ramsey target, the sort of George approved. If you're doing this number at this age, Sage, you're doing great. Keep it up. Gold star. So I asked our Ramsey audience to drop their numbers in the comment section a couple of days ago and they delivered. So I'm going to get to their average net worth. I compiled it all like a nerd that I am. I've got the average, the median age, the median net worth. I'm going to compare it to the national data. But first I want to talk about what net worth is because people get confused and they think, well, it's the amount you have in your bank account. Account. No, it is what you own minus what you owe. It's assets minus liabilities. So think your cash, your retirement accounts, your home equity, your vehicles, minus the debts. So I'm going to pull up Our net worth calculator here. It's a free tool on our site. I'm going to drop a link in the description of this episode, the show notes. If you jump down to there, we'll have a link to the net worth calculator. Here's the challenge for you. Go use this, this and then tell me in the comments where you ended up and what your age is. And that'll be a fun sort of round two of this. So for this example, we've got our assets and liabilities. Let's say we've got a couple here. You know, Rick and Jen, they have a home that is worth $400,000 in their checking accounts. They have $5,000 savings. Let's say they've got their starter emergency fund, thousand bucks retirement accounts. They got 22,000 cars. They've got 20,000 in cars. Other assets will leave that one blank. So we got 448. On the plus side, we're not done yet. Now we move on to the liabilities, which is going to subtract from that. So what is the mortgage? Well, they owe 350,000 on the mortgage in credit card debt, they've got 10,000 in personal loans. They got another 5,000. They got 50,000 in student loans and they owe 10 grand on their car. Now let's add this up, calculate net worth $23,000. So this just goes to show you that it's not all about what you have, it's all about what you owe as well. And so a couple, let's say they make 120 grand. You're going, wow, they're doing pretty well for themselves. They got 20 grand to their name. When you actually do the accounting math on this. So whether you have a negative net worth, positive net worth, I'm going to show you the data here so that you know where you stack. And another spoiler alert. Ramsey listeners stacked way higher than the national average. So good for you guys. So I'm going to look at my cheat sheet here. We're going to put the graphic up on the screen in a moment. But let's start with the age bracket. Under 35 years old. We're going to go with a median here because the average is not super accurate. And here's why the average is. Take all the numbers and divide them into each other. You've got your average. Problem with that is rich people ruin the averages. If Dave Ramsey walks into a Waffle House, the average net worth of everyone in that Waffle House just went up by $100,000. So that's not really a great metric to know how we're doing financially. So the median is the number that I like to use. That's square in the middle. We're not dividing anything. We're just going to go up the list, smallest to largest, and cut it at the middle. That's the median. So under 35, the national median net worth. Drum roll, please. $39,000. All right, that tells me that we're. We're doing something. We're at least in the positive America. That's good news. Now let's move on to age 35 to 44. If you are in that age bracket, the national median net worth, $135,000. Great. We're at six figures. That's good news. Now let's move on to the age 45 to 54 age bracket. Hopefully at this point, you've been working for, you know, 20, 30 years. The median net worth nationally, $247,000. Here's where it gets wild. You think as we get older, we're heading to retirement, we're going to retire millionaires. I wish that were the case. Age 55 to 64, we move up to a $365,000 median net worth. And finally 65 to 74, for those boomers out there, that's Dave Ramsey. $410,000 median net worth is where we stand stand. Now, if you look at the averages, it's a little more hopeful. 1.79 million is the average. But again, that is skewed by the ultra wealthy ruining the numbers for the rest of us. So that's where America stands. Under 35 is 39,000. All the way up to 65 to 74, we're at 410,000. So let me give you the Ramsey targets for that. We're going to put this graph up for you. If you're under 35 instead of 39,000, I think it'd be great to have a hundred grand by the time time you hit your early 30s. $100,000 in net worth, not necessarily what's in your bank account, but retirement, your home equity, all of that 35 to 44. A great number to hit is 400 to $500,000 of net worth by the time you are in your 40s. That's an awesome goal to have because that tells me just based off compound growth, you're going to retire a millionaire. Plus, now 45 to 54 instead of a 247 net worth, what if you started approaching baby steps? Millionaire status, 750,000 to a million would be fantastic. And here's where I get that number. 49 years old was the average number for our baby steps millionaires when we did the millionaire study. Over 10,000 of them. 49 was the average age that they hit that millionaire net worth. And then 55 to 64, you're heading into retirement years. I would love for you to have a net worth of one and a half to two million bucks by the time you hit six sixty. That'd be pretty cool. Hopefully by then you got a paid for house. If you followed the Ramsey plan for 15 plus years, you've been stacking that nest egg and a bunch of that's going to be your retirement. And then 65 to 74. Let's shoot for the stars here. Two and a half million plus net worth at retirement and in your 60s and into your 70s. And I hope these numbers are low for where you guys end up. I hope that if you're listening to this show, you're going, that's not going to be be me. I'm not going to be the median. I'm not going to be average. And the good news is the Ramsey listeners showed up. So here's the numbers for the Ramsey listeners. Pretty wild. I had over 100 comments here. The median age for people who submitted was about 39 years old. And the median net worth for those people was $600,000. And if you remember that age bracket, 35 to 44, the median was 135 national. And our Ramsey listeners, the ones that submitted were 600,000 bucks. So almost four and a half times the national median for that age. So well done guys. And we got multiple commenters who were in their early 40s who all said $800,000 net worth as a married couple. That's pretty interesting because that tells me they're going to be baby steps millionaires by the time they hit 49. It's almost like the data is accurate. It's pretty cool. So a couple reminders here. Your income, income has something to do with your net worth, but not as much as you think because the stats show this is from Goldman Sachs. 40% of people making $500,000 or more are paycheck to paycheck. Makes sense. They're leverage up to their eyeballs. They drive the nicest cars, have the nicest homes and they can afford all of their giant payments. But it's not moving them forward when it comes to their net worth. And remember this, the composition matters. You don't want 90% of your net worth to be in your home.

[Caller]

Home.

[George Camel]

You want to be building wealth that you can actually use. And what we found in our millionaire study is that about a third of their net worth was in their home and about two thirds was their retirement. And of course, you've got cash and cars and, you know, watches and jewelry and that stuff in there, but the bulk of it is going to be your home and the huge bulk is going to be that nest egg. So net worth, it's a GPS coordinate. It's not a grade on how you are as a person, but it's a good thing to be tracking to know if you're moving in the right direction. And I hope that all of you listening to the show end up baby steps millionaires by following this. So if you want to see how your net worth compares to the average American, check out our net worth calculator. Plug in your numbers. We'll drop a link in the show notes if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. Hey guys, George Camel here. You ever feel like you make good money and still have nothing to show for it? You run into Target for one thing and Somehow walk out $87 later with toothpaste and emotional support candles. Just me. Okay, well, that's the problem. Most people don't pay attention to how they spend their money. So it does whatever it wants. And that's why we created EveryDollar. It's a budgeting app that helps you create a simple plan for your money. Everydollar is simple, it's clear, and it helps track where your money's actually going. Plus, you get daily lessons to DOs and reminders along the way. It's like having a money coach in your pocket. Your money's been freelancing long enough. It's time to give EveryDollar a full time job. Go download EveryDollar for free on the App Store or Google Google Play. Buying or selling your home is a high stakes deal because if it's a bad one, it could cost you tens of thousands. You don't want to overpay for your next house or sell your current home for less than it's worth. And a lot of people do that because they're not working with pro. And that's why Ramsey trusted connects you with vetted real estate agents who have the experience to guide you step by step to make smart decisions strategically instead of making expensive mistakes. And connecting is easy. You can compare agent profiles, interview your top choices and pick the one you like so you can find a local Trusted agent who has your best interest at heart. For free, just go to ramseysolutions.com agent or click the link in the description. If you're listening on YouTube or podcast, Barbara is up next in Salt Lake City. Barbara, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[Caller]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I despise the reason for my call, but I'm grateful to be on.

[George Camel]

That's a great setup.

[Caller]

I am a widow. My husband and I were having the time of our lives and in 2021 he passed away unexpectedly. And I just want to know if I'm going to be okay financially actually. Wow.

[George Camel]

So sorry. Barbara, how old are you?

[Caller]

I am almost 59.

[George Camel]

Oh my goodness. How old was he when he passed?

[Caller]

Him? My age. My age. He's. Yeah, it was unexpected. And our kids were a little older. We were having the time of our lives. We're Texans, but we had tragedy in Texas and that's what brought us to Utah. We owned our own big truck and Bill was run off the hauling a tanker of fuel and he lived, but we lost everything. And so we were at the tail end of a recovery period when he died. Wow.

[George Camel]

I'm so sorry. What's been going on the last five years now? What's this new chapter look like for you?

[Caller]

We had a child in school still. He was between. It was the summer between his sophomore and junior year and our oldest son was a very young adult. So I just chose to just take a step of faith and stay in a part time job. I was in a very low paying ministry position. But I just thought this kid just lost his good dad. I don't want him functionally to turn around and lose his good mom. So we lived on my husband's fers, my small paycheck and then my son's Social Security. And then as soon as he was at the tail end of his senior year, I went back to work and I nanny. Right now I bring home 3200amonth and I also get, and I don't know exactly what it is from the U.S. office of Personnel Management. I get 600 dropped in my account every month and I'm struggling. I can keep to a budget like nobody's business. But I just feel so dense. Since Bill's passed, you know, I've been with less than nothing. Like we lost home, cars. But I wasn't alone.

[George Camel]

I mean, it was just tragedy after tragedy.

[Caller]

Well, and from 2018 till last, last fall, my family has all passed away except for my siblings, children and my two children. I met at 55, I was the oldest person in my family.

[George Camel]

Wow, that's not how you picture it. I'm so sorry for all that. All that grief. Well, let's try to look at the numbers and give you some hope here. You have 3800 bucks coming in every month. Do you have any debts?

[Caller]

I have 6,000 in medical bills and I just paid off. I kind of froze with all the income tax stuff after Bill died. And I made some really foolish moves. I filed the first year and then I froze. And so just this past December, I filed for 2022, 2023, and 2024.

[George Camel]

Okay, so you're catching up on taxes. Do you know how much you owe in back taxes?

[Caller]

Right around 2000, because I just have been hitting it hard since December.

[George Camel]

Good. Okay, so 2,000 to the IRS, 6,000 in medical. Anything else?

[Caller]

Nope.

[George Camel]

Okay. Do you have a mortgage?

[Caller]

No. When I took the life insurance, he had just bumped our life insurance up shortly before he passed. Otherwise I'd probably be homeless right now.

Wow.

[George Camel]

That's first caution to everyone watching out there to get term life insurance and make sure you have enough 10 to 12 times your income. How much did he have?

[Caller]

I don't remember. But after paying my home off right now, and this is another. This where I feel so inept. I have stuck the money in CDs, so they've been sitting kind of in the first year. I didn't even put them in a cd. So I have some money, but it's not. Not doing anything.

[George Camel]

How much are we talking?

[Caller]

236. 236,000. And then a paid off home. And I own a car. But right before he died, he told me, babe, I feel like God's impressing on me to pay off your car. And so sorry. I have a paid off vehicle. And then I also. I have no maintenance, no gas. I have to buy. My employers love me, and I do. And they, after negotiating everything, they surprised me with like, guess what? We want to provide your transportation and your gas.

[George Camel]

Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, that's fantastic. Okay, so here's some good news. You have a couple hundred thousand. We can do better with that than CDs. We could invest that into the market, into some good, you know, growth stock, mutual funds, index funds. And you'll likely see that over the next 10 years, years grow at a rate of about 10 to 12%. So you could end up with, you know, half a million bucks at 67 if you just invest it and don't add anything to it.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Camel]

Now you. You have some debt to pay off, so I want to make that the priority to get rid of that. Eight grand gets you completely debt free, right?

[Caller]

Correct.

[George Camel]

Do you have anything in savings right now?

[Caller]

Well, I just have the CDs I have. I normally set around 4 or 5,000 in savings that I just.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

I would, in your shoes, keep a liquid emergency fund of six months of expenses. Okay, so does it. What do you think your expenses are in a given month? Three grand or so?

[Caller]

No, the fourth. The full 38. And it probably could be shaved some. But I have a child that has just hit crisis after crisis since his father's passing, and I am not.

We're close.

I don't have mama's boys. That's disgusting. But I really do feel that this one child needs some support right now.

[George Camel]

Financial support, Very little financial.

[Caller]

But he's back in my home and just not able to contribute. He had a great savings and just zero debt his whole life and was taken for $105,000. So he came back pretty bankrupt and broke in like all the ways. Wow. Yeah. But he's a good man. I think he's going to be okay.

Wow.

[George Camel]

Well, let's get you a game plan before we run out of time here. So step one, we need to be doing a budget to figure out where every single one of these dollars is going and see if we can squeeze some money out to pay off these debts. Step number two, let's figure out when this CD is maturing to get this money out of the there and instead park it in a high yield savings account. So that's liquid, there's no penalties. And our friends at Fairwinds, they've got a great smart bundle that includes one. So you can go to Fairwinds.org Ramsey and open one of those up and put at least $20,000 in there for your full emergency fund. That's like true emergency. Is it necessary, unexpected, urgent? Then you'll still have out of that 236, you're still going to have 260, right?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

So let's say you were able to then invest 15 of your income. Let's call that 625 bucks a month. Right. From 59 to 67, you got your 216. You'll have over half a million dollars at that stage. And Social Security. Correct.

[Caller]

And so I'll invest 16%. What if I did this? So two, one of the CDs is for 133,000. It matures September this year.

[George Camel]

Okay. So Once that one matures, take the 20 grand out of that and put the rest into a good investment. Reach out to a smartvestor Pro. Go to ramseysolutions.com I want them to make a whole plan for you to see a Runway to retirement.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[George Camel]

Hey, George, Camel here. So you're thinking about buying or selling your home? It's exciting, but there's a lot to think about and all those decisions can feel overwhelming. Well, here's the good news. You don't have to tackle the process alone. Ramsey's real estate home base is the place to find all of your free tools and resources for help to get prepared to buy or sell your your home with confidence. You'll find calculators, start to finish guides, a podcast, and even an in depth video course hosted by yours truly. What's not to love? So if you're ready to take the next steps toward your home goals, go to ramseysolutions.com real estate that's ramseysolutions.com real estate. Our scripture of the day, Ecclesiastes 5, 3 for a dream comes with much business and a fool's voice with many words. Les Brown said, too many of us are not living our dreams because we are living our fears. Andrew joins us in Salt Lake City up next. Andrew, what's going on?

[Caller]

Hey George, thanks for, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

[George Camel]

Absolutely.

[Caller]

Yeah. So just getting, just getting into it. I'm 25. My girlfriend and I recently became parents about eight weeks ago. We have a little baby girl and right now she's staying at home taking care of her. And we're blessed to be living with her mom rent free. And right now I feel like I could be more aggressive paying off debt. But as a new job, Adam, I find myself wanting kind of like a bigger safety net just because I feel like every financial decision falls on me. Like I'm third now in the pecking order. And so am I providing my family with like a wise safety net or am I sacrificing progress because I'm afraid of like all the unknowns of what could happen?

[George Camel]

That's a great question. And becoming a father will definitely make you take stock in all of this and you sort of bow up as the provider and it sort of is your identity of am I providing or not? And that's how you sort of judge yourself. And then the picture of debt and savings in there, you know, financially providing is a big part of that. But what I don't want you to do is have a false sense of Security that a savings balance gives you while debt is eaten away at your family in the background. So it's sort of this on the accounting sheet. The debt is really, you don't have as much as you think when you owe all these debtors. So how much debt do you got guys have?

[Caller]

Yeah, myself, I have about 5,700 on a credit card and then a car loan for around 18,000. She has some school loans that aren't really like a good priority right now. Like, we have, we have some time. That's like about 5,000. So overall we have about 5, 6, 7. 28,000, 29,000. Okay.

[George Camel]

What do you mean you have time on the student loans?

[Caller]

We haven't really talked about it. And honestly, like, so we, we are married and I feel like when it comes to, like, I, I do kind of just put the load on my shoulders with, with the finances and she doesn't really, you know, she's hands off and kind of just, you know, I, it's really me and so I, I, we probably need to have a conversation there. But like, it's not something that's like, like, I, I don't know, like she doesn't owe, owe it right now or. Yeah, but she, she's told me 5,000. Like, she's, she's just unsure about it.

[George Camel]

Okay, well, the reason I ask is I, I want all of this debt to become a priority. And if that's the lowest debt in the debt snowball once you guys are married, which is that on the, on the table now. Is this happening this weekend?

[Caller]

It's, it's definitely on the table. We skip some steps. Have, you know, we, we were dating for two years, then had a kid and marriage was on, you know, the. On the table. And it still is, but it's just,

[George Camel]

But I mean, she's the one, right? You guys are. You're all in all three.

[Caller]

100%. Yeah.

[George Camel]

Okay, then I'm going to go full, full Dave Ramsey and say just go to the courthouse and get legally married and we can do a party later on.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Because that's going to protect you guys and give you the unity that you need to get the finances in order and not have this weird she's ven moing me and I'm paying the bills and who's getting the diapers this month. That's, that's not going to work. So step one is, let's talk about how we get legally married so that we can move forward with our life together now that we're parents. And then step two is. All right, how much do you make, Andrew?

[Caller]

Yeah, I work on commissions. My base salary, I bring home about 4,000amonth, but I average around 5,000amonth, so like 60,000 a year.

[George Camel]

Great. And I'm assuming you have very little bills if you're living with her mom?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah. Fixed right now is about 1,400.

[George Camel]

What's that a month?

[Caller]

My fixed monthly bills. Our monthly bills is 1400.

[George Camel]

So you're telling me at the end of the month there's $4,600 sitting there or $3,600.

[Caller]

So I, I put, I put a lot of it into savings. And then I, I'm kind of in, like, a cycle of how we've been going about spending money. I have just given her my credit card and I, I don't want to, like, be the overlord of, like, hey, let me know when you're spending this. Like, she just, just uses the credit card. And I kind of. I try and pay off the credit card as much as I can each month.

[George Camel]

That hasn't worked out, has it?

[Caller]

No, no, not at all.

[George Camel]

So let's, let's try a different routine. I get that you don't want to be the overlord, but we also don't want to spend money we don't have. And so starting today, we're cutting up the cards. You have a debit card with your local bank?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Okay. We're going to start using that with money we actually have so that we can get out of the cycle. Because you're not going to get out of debt while we're still going into it. Especially when you're giving somebody you're not married to a line of credit that is on your shoulders. There's a lot of risk there, and I'm sure she's trustworthy, but there's also just sort of this, like, handoff into oblivion, and neither of you really know what's going on. So we're going to make a budget, you know, tonight, going, all right, here's all the bills coming in. Here's the income we have. Have. And as soon as we're married, we're combining our whole life and our banks, and you're going to have access to a debit card. One joint checking account, one high yield savings account. And how much do you have in savings right now?

[Caller]

Right now, in a high yield savings, I have about 14,000. I have baby step one. I have $1,000 emergency, and then I have 1400 in Robin Hood, so around 16,000. So like I could pay off the credit card today, but like I'm, I'm worried of bringing like I could go full Dave Ramsey, bring my savings down to a thousand and why don't you.

[George Camel]

You have almost, you have very little risk in your life living with mom with almost no bills. If anyone can do this, it's you.

[Caller]

Yeah. And I guess I've it. It's probably a, like a personal thing. I tend to do things like with the fire up my back and I, you know, tend to stress. But like I recently had a job change which was a promotion, but I saw a dip of about $20,000 in commission. Like 20, 25. I cleared 100. Around 102,000 take home. Wow.

And.

And this year I'm around 70,000. So a bit of like chasing the title because I want to grow but then realizing like, like I, I could focus a lot on like my career growth and that's still the goal. But like I want to, I don't know, like, I'm stressed about making more money, money providing. But then like, you know, and that's where all like it. Because it was hard to save up all of this money and I, that's the hard part.

[George Camel]

It's, it's really easy to go into debt and I don't want you to get comfortable with your 14 grand going. Well, we're okay if something happened. So I don't need to go full throttle. I think going down to a thousand, knocking out the credit card and almost the car loan. I mean within a month you're just down to her student loan.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So here's what I want you to do. You're 25 years old. Think about where you guys want want to be 12 months from now. Do you still want to be in the cycle? Do you still want to be living with mom with a one year old or do you want to be independent, living in your old place, renting somewhere, saving up a down payment while your wife stays at home. Is that the goal?

[Caller]

That's okay. I want to keep, I want to keep her at home.

[George Camel]

So now it's. What is the best and fastest path to do that? It is this plan. It is. Thousand dollars Start emergency fund. Getting out of debt, using the debt snowball. Smallest to largest business balance. I wish I could say Andrew's the exception to the rule for the first time in Ramsey history, but you're not. So I would go down to a thousand. And if you do have an emergency come up, then we can address that. We can use the cash flow from the next paycheck, we can sell stuff, we can hustle for a moment, pause it at snowball and then hit play again once we are out of that storm. But I think part of what has caused this, this issue is this sort of paralysis and I to want, I want to do some Robin Hood investing over here and I want to save and now there's a baby on the way, but I want to grow in my career. These are all good things to want, to build wealth, to get out of debt, to be a good dad, to provide, to have a stay at home wife. But right now we have to sort of build a foundation and clean up this mess so that you have the mental Runway, the financial Runway, the emotional Runway, to be the provider that you want to be. So I love the motive. This is one of the best whys possible, possible to do this plan to be gazelle, intense, to make deep, deep sacrifices is because there's a baby in the world, there's a woman you love, there's this family that you want to see flourish and thrive. And currently if we stay the path of just I'll keep my savings, eventually get out of debt, eventually do this, you're going to find yourself in a very similar place six months from now, 12 months from now. So be aggressive, make the sacrifices needed and, and I wish you guys the best and congrats on the wedding. If you get married this weekend, you call me back, I'll send you a real nice wedding gift. That's my promise to you that puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace and that's to walk daily with the prince of peace, Christ Jesus.