You Have To Fight For Peace And Quit Living In Chaos

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ramsey Show – "You Have To Fight For Peace And Quit Living In Chaos"

Release Date: July 17, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Ramsey Show, host Dave Ramsey and his team delve into the intricate challenges listeners face in achieving financial peace amidst personal and financial chaos. The episode is packed with real-life stories, expert advice, and actionable steps to help individuals regain control over their finances and, consequently, their lives.

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Caller Segment 1: Sarah from Newark, New Jersey

Timestamp: 00:45

Sarah reaches out expressing her distress over mounting back taxes and disorganization in her estate planning. At almost 82 years old, Sarah is grappling with health issues and fears the repercussions her back taxes might have on her heirs.

• Key Issues:

  • Owes state and federal back taxes.
  • Disorganized estate resembling a hoarder's house due to collectibles and antiques.
  • Uncertainty about the liability of her heirs concerning her taxes.

• Dave Ramsey's Advice:

  • Tax Resolution: Ramsey advises Sarah to consult an Endorsed Local Provider (ELP) for tax preparation through RamseySolutions.com. He clarifies that while heirs aren't directly liable for her taxes, the estate is responsible, implying that assets like her home must be used to settle debts before inheritance.

    • Notable Quote: “...your estate is [liable for the taxes].” (02:45)

  • Organization: Emphasizes the importance of organizing her estate to reduce anxiety and prevent the "monsters" of financial chaos from looming over her.

    • Notable Quote: “Once you know what the trouble looks like... it's a lot less than your imagination has led you to believe.” (04:15)

• Additional Support: George Camel highlights the ripple effect of financial organization on various aspects of life, suggesting that tackling one area can lead to improvements in others, such as health and relationships.

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Caller Segment 2: Seba from Delaware

Timestamp: 10:37

Seba discusses the challenges of enabling her adult children, who remain financially dependent on her. She reveals concerns about her children's lack of financial independence despite her efforts to build their credit.

• Key Issues:

  • Enabling two adult children to remain dependent.
  • Co-signing loans to assist with her children's finances.
  • Struggling with the idea of cutting financial support to foster independence.

• Dave Ramsey's Advice:

  • Setting Boundaries: Ramsey stresses the importance of letting her children become sustainable, emphasizing that co-signing loans perpetuates dependency.

    • Notable Quote: “If you want to stop doing that, you don't put them on the loan.” (02:58)

  • Encouraging Independence: Encourages Seba to establish a clear timeline for her children to achieve financial independence and to seek professional financial coaching.

    • Notable Quote: “The great news is that everyone in this story gets to grow up.” (15:00)

• Guest Insights: George Camel points out the emotional challenges Seba might face, such as loneliness, but reinforced by Dave Ramsey that enabling creates more significant issues in the long run.

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Caller Segment 3: Amy from New York City

Timestamp: 17:09

Amy seeks advice on relocating from New York City to Tennessee. With substantial equity in her current home, she contemplates whether to purchase a new home outright or take out a mortgage for a larger residence in Tennessee.

• Key Issues:

  • Planning a move with $600,000 in home equity.
  • Deciding between buying a fixer-upper to pay cash or taking a mortgage for a new home.
  • Importance of school districts for her three children.

• Dave Ramsey's Advice:

  • Market Research: Recommends visiting Tennessee to assess neighborhoods, school districts, and real estate prices firsthand before making a decision.

    • Notable Quote: “You haven't even been there yet. So go there, drive around, figure out what's going on.” (19:34)

  • Financial Prudence: Advises against assuming the need for a fixer-upper and emphasizes making informed decisions based on actual market data.

    • Notable Quote: “Don't start with the assumption that I have to buy a fixer upper.” (20:33)

• George Camel's Input: Highlights the potential for long-term peace and stability by making educated choices, ensuring that the move aligns with the family's financial goals and needs.

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Special Guest Segment: Jamin and Lindsay from Fort Wayne, Indiana

Timestamp: 22:13

Jamin and Lindsay share their inspiring journey of paying off $600,000 in debt within seven years while simultaneously building a substantial net worth.

• Key Achievements:

  • Eliminated $600,000 in debt, including a mortgage.
  • Accumulated nearly $2 million in net worth by age 33.
  • Emphasize disciplined budgeting and goal-oriented financial planning.

• Strategies Employed:

  • Baby Steps Approach: Followed Dave Ramsey's baby steps meticulously, focusing on debt elimination and investment growth.

    • Notable Quote: “If you have a goal, if you have a dream, make a plan to get there and just work hard.” (28:04)

  • Automatic Investing: Automated their savings and investments to ensure consistent progress without the need for constant oversight.

  • Living Below Their Means: Maintained a frugal lifestyle to maximize savings and investment potential.

    • Notable Quote: “We just made it a point to live below our means.” (28:40)

• Advice for Listeners:

  • Prioritize debt elimination through disciplined budgeting.
  • Automate savings and investments to build wealth efficiently.
  • Maintain a frugal lifestyle to empower financial freedom.

• Debt-Free Celebration: Jamin and Lindsay’s success culminates in a heartfelt debt-free scream, symbolizing their triumph over financial chaos.

  • Notable Quote: “We are debt free.” (30:46)

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Additional Caller Segments

Throughout the episode, Dave Ramsey handles various other callers, each presenting unique financial dilemmas ranging from high-income individuals struggling with investment decisions to single parents battling overwhelming debt.

• Michael from Detroit

  • Issue: Considering moving investments into annuities based on conflicting advice from brokers.
  • Advice: Ramsey strongly advises against annuities, emphasizing their complexity and poor risk-return profile compared to traditional investments like mutual funds.
    • Notable Quote: “Annuities are not evil. They're not bad... They're just very few times I'm going to put somebody into an annuity.” (67:12)

• Betsy from Oklahoma

  • Issue: Facing anxiety over her fiancé's irresponsible spending habits despite his efforts to overcome bankruptcy.
  • Advice: Ramsey recommends ending the relationship to prevent future financial turmoil, highlighting that unresolved money issues are a leading cause of divorce.
    • Notable Quote: “Money fights and money problems are one of the leading causes of divorce in America.” (56:31)

• John from Raleigh, North Carolina

  • Issue: Deciding whether to upgrade to a more expensive home.
  • Advice: Ramsey advises against taking on additional mortgage debt without substantial savings, emphasizing financial stability and avoiding 100% net worth tied up in real estate.
    • Notable Quote: “I do not want 100% of your net worth tied up in your house.” (61:56)

• Shonda from Chicago

  • Issue: Overwhelmed by $185,000 in credit card debt from personal and failed business ventures.
  • Advice: Ramsey encourages her to prioritize paying off high-interest debts, potentially consider bankruptcy for non-dischargeable debts like student loans, and focus on building a steady career path.
    • Notable Quote: “You cannot afford to live there unless his income goes up substantially in the next three months.” (75:00)

• Rachel from Various Locations

  • Issue: Multiple callers named Rachel seek guidance on financial disagreements, debt management, and estate planning.
  • Advice: Emphasizes the importance of budgeting, setting financial boundaries, and seeking professional financial coaching to navigate complex financial landscapes.

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Notable Quotes

1. Dave Ramsey on Tax Anxiety: “When you get this put to bed and you have a system and a plan, your anxiety level is going to go down...” (03:40)
2. On Enabling Dependence: “The great news is everyone in this story gets to grow up.” (15:00)
3. On Financial Freedom: “If your goal is worth having, then it's worth the effort to put in.” (28:21)
4. On Structured Notes Risk: “Structured notes are an ultra high-risk derivative product.” (100:56)
5. On Debt Repayment Priorities: “You cannot have a house payment or rent that is 50% of your take-home pay...” (75:00)

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Conclusion

This episode of The Ramsey Show underscores the pervasive impact of financial missteps on personal lives and relationships. Through a series of heartfelt caller interactions, Dave Ramsey provides pragmatic solutions rooted in discipline, budgeting, and strategic planning. The success stories of listeners like Jamin and Lindsay serve as beacons of hope, illustrating that financial freedom is attainable with commitment and the right guidance. Ramsey's unwavering focus on actionable advice empowers listeners to confront their financial chaos head-on, paving the way toward lasting peace and prosperity.

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Key Takeaways

• Prioritize Debt Elimination: Tackling high-interest debts should be a priority to relieve financial stress and free up resources for wealth-building.

• Budgeting is Fundamental: A disciplined budgeting approach is essential for managing expenses, saving, and investing wisely.

• Seek Professional Guidance: Consulting with financial experts, such as Ramsey's Endorsed Local Providers, can provide tailored solutions to complex financial issues.

• Live Below Your Means: Maintaining a frugal lifestyle enables greater financial flexibility and accelerates the journey to financial freedom.

• Foster Financial Independence: Encourage dependents to become financially self-sufficient to prevent long-term dependency and promote personal growth.

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By weaving together real-life stories and expert advice, this episode provides listeners with both inspiration and practical steps to overcome financial chaos and achieve lasting peace.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Foreign to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love and create actual amazing relationships. Rachel Cruz, number one best selling author, Ramsey personality, co host of the Smart Money Happy Hour. My daughter is my co host today. The phone number is 888-25-5225. Sarah is in Newark, New Jersey. Hi, Sarah, how are you?

[Rachel Cruz]

Hi. Well, my health is not great and I have to make some serious decisions about my estate. But I have several problems and I don't know what to do and I'm desperate for advice.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, I'm an expert on my opinion, so I'll give it to you.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. In a few months, I'll be 82. Now, I've always had some physical limitations, but I've been very independent and have managed to have fairly decent life and acquire a lot of stuff. So. But now my health is. I've had a lot of problems. The doctors are still trying to figure out exactly what's wrong. And so I need to. I did go to a lawyer for a preliminary will, but I didn't finalize it yet. My problems are this. I'm completely disorganized. I don't know where anything is. And my house. If you've ever watched the TV shows about hoarders, my house looks like a hoarder's house. The difference is I'm not hoarding trash. I'm hoarding collectibles and antiques. So I have to deal with that as well. But what I really don't know what to do about is the fact that I owe back taxes, state and federal taxes. And I'm afraid because they haven't contacted me in years, maybe they think I'm dead. I don't know. I'm afraid if I start in that, I'll stir up a hornet's nest. So one of my questions is, if I do die, are my heirs liable for the back, state and federal taxes?

[Dave Ramsey]

No. But your estate is.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

For instance, if you were leaving your home to one of your children, in order to keep that home, they would have to file those taxes and pay them.

[Rachel Cruz]

All right, so should I go to a lawyer for more advice?

[Dave Ramsey]

No. I would just go to ramseysolutions.com and click on ELP. It stands for Endorsed Local Provider for Tax Preparer. And you go sit down with a professional tax person that does tax preparing. Typically, what we see in your situation is unusual, but typically what we see is they'll go back about three years and file three years of tax returns and whatever those taxes are. And then from this point forward, you continue to file taxes on.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, so it's only three years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because I typically, typically that's what we call coming in out of the cold.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Because I probably owe maybe as much as 10 years of back taxes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you typically don't do that. But again, I'll let you get professional tax advice, not some guy on a podcast. But, but that's what I have run into and it is really important that you do that because let me, let me tell you what it does. When you get this put to bed and you have a system and a plan, your anxiety level is going to go down because this is riding right in your shoulder blades, right along the top of your neck.

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm so upset over some of this stuff.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, well, and you're scared. You don't know whether they're going to come show up at your door and, you know, put some 82 year old woman in jail or something. I mean, that's a. You have these things pop in your mind in the morning when you're waking up or just before you go to sleep at night. And that's just stress. And so even in other words, once you know what the trouble looks like, it's still going to be stress relieving because at least it's defined the size of the monster and the sharpness of his claws. We know exactly what we're dealing with. And I think you're going to find it's a lot less than your imagination has led you to believe. But the sooner you deal with it, the sooner you're going to get that sense of relief.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Sarah, do you have family in the area?

[Rachel Cruz]

No, they live states away.

[George Camel]

They live states away.

[Rachel Cruz]

I do have a local guy I know I've been paying him a little bit to come and help me try and deal with a lot of this stuff.

[George Camel]

Good. That's what I was going to suggest too is when you start getting organized in one area of your life. We see this a lot with money, when people start actually taking control of their money and getting that. And we've talked to people and it's everything from like their marriage has changed, they lose weight. I mean, like, it's just wild how other parts of your life start to come in play. And so the chaos that you're living in physically too, my hope for you just for. Yeah, I mean, you're 82. For the rest of the time you are alive. That there's a little bit more peace and sanity. And your physical space is creating as much chaos as this financial space, too, I could only imagine. And so I love that you're even working on that. You said you already have a guy that's helping you.

[Dave Ramsey]

My guess. My guess is you probably got enough antiques you could sell and not miss them to pay off the taxes.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, that's the other thing. I'm trying to, you know, straighten up enough so that I could take photographs of what I own. I've been doing this as a sideline for maybe 60 years, so I know what I've got. But just learning that I'm not liable for 10 years worth because I don't even know my income.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't think you are. I don't think you are. I think. But I think you got to go back and you got to put together some kind of a tax return and file it. And it's a lot less. They're a lot less aggressive if you go to them rather than them coming and finding you.

[George Camel]

Have you been working, Sarah, or. When did you stop working?

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, I never officially retired. I've always had my hand in something. I'm like an entrepreneur, so, you know, I still do stuff.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what is your net worth?

[Rachel Cruz]

I have no. I. Well, okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's the house worth?

[Rachel Cruz]

My house worth? The last time I looked, somebody looked for me on Zillow. It was about. But that does not include.

[Dave Ramsey]

You said it was worth what you cut out.

[Rachel Cruz]

It's worth, what, 230,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. What do you think the antiques are worth?

[Rachel Cruz]

At least 20 to 30,000, I would think.

[Dave Ramsey]

And how much money do you have in your nest egg?

[Rachel Cruz]

Maybe around 60 saved up.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, good. Okay.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, because I was going to say the other thing is my other income comes from gas fracking, but if you ask me how much I get every year, it's a different amount all the time.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. You had some family land that's got some oil leases on it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, well, it's where I live.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, okay. Okay. All right, cool. Yeah. You know, you do have to sit down with somebody, so jump on. And I'll tell you what Christian will pick up. I'm going to hook you up with one of our coaches in the area and see if they can hold your hand through this, because you really need to take action on these things because it's this. This buildup of stuff, of situations is starting to weigh on you, and we've got to get that.

[George Camel]

I'm assuming it's her property. Tax, too, that they could come and take that.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, I don't. I mean, we're talking about filing taxes, so that wouldn't be so.

[George Camel]

Not necessarily that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

I'm just thinking about her home.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. I don't think property taxes would have gone 10 years in New Jersey.

[George Camel]

Are they going to.

[Dave Ramsey]

That they would already been there. Yeah. I'm guessing this is just income tax, state and federal, but yeah. We just got to get you some relief, kiddo. You're going to have to address the situation, and we're going to put someone in your life that's going to lovingly make you do it, because you got to do this. This is the Ramsey Show.

[Chris Hogan]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Saba is with us in Delaware. Hey, Sabah, what's up?

[Rachel Cruz]

Hi. Mr. Ramsey, I am in desperate need of your guidance. And I appreciate that you taking my call today.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, how can we help?

[Rachel Cruz]

So, to give you a background, I am 50 years old, have two adult children that lives with me, and have no intention of moving on out on their own. When my kids were little, my daughter, the youngest, was four. And I Got divorced. So I shifted the blame on myself that I was responsible for the divorce. So I kind of, and I took responsibility for this enable both of them to be totally dependent on me.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are they today?

[Rachel Cruz]

27, 21. When you were little, I saved more than I am now. When my son turned 18, I had to my saving in his name. Took up credit card or just a credit card for him. And when he graduated high school, his credit score was 780. I did the same for my daughter when she turned 18, built her credit to 780, gave each of them their credit cards and told them just run with it. Recently I decided to purchase a home. I've been waiting and waiting and the market is not getting any better. So I figured, well, I'll just go ahead and purchase anyway, whatever I have, whatever the market has right now. So I phoned a lending officer and I asked to have my name and my two children name on the loan. I got this.

[Dave Ramsey]

Why would you put your two children on the loan?

[Rachel Cruz]

I figure if it's just me, I wouldn't get the amount based on the market, the housing market.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm a little bit confused because I thought you were calling me because you had enabled these children and you were wanting to stop doing.

[Rachel Cruz]

Pretty much. Pretty much.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you want to stop doing that, you don't put them on the loan.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay?

[Dave Ramsey]

They need to be on their own and you need to be on your own as standalone, sustainable adults. Okay, so how are we going to cut them loose? What are we going to do? I don't know.

[Rachel Cruz]

I don't know.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you do. You say, I mean, you say in three months. In three months you are moving out.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay?

[Dave Ramsey]

In three months you're going to have a job and you're going to be on your own. You're 27 years old, you're 21 years old, you're leaving.

[George Camel]

And it sounds like that move, seba, is more scary for you than it's going to be for them. You are so dependent upon them. I mean, it sounds like from an emotional standpoint and everything, I mean, you've put so much relational stock absolutely right in them and you don't. Your loneliness is going to be knocking at the door as they exit. And so you're going to have to deal with you really for the first time, possibly because it sounds like there's been some avoiding and in a sense kind of medicating right. With their relationship with you and you're detaching that. So I think that this move is going to Be harder for you than them.

[Rachel Cruz]

I. A little bit of both, because I did give them kind of like an ultimatum for the end of the year because I wanted to. I put. I couldn't even put them on the loan because of how bad the credit has gotten. So I got approved and I'm looking like, okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't know why that would be a shock. I mean, you taught these kids to borrow money and run their credit score up and then you're shocked that they did that. I wouldn't be shocked. I think that's exactly what you taught them to do.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

There's no, there's no shock of your life. I mean, when you, when you take a 17 year old and you run up a FICO score by running up their credit card debt and you teach them that that's how they're supposed to live, then they go live that way. That's what they're going to do.

[Rachel Cruz]

No, no, no, no, no. I built the credit.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know. By borrowing money and using credit cards.

[Rachel Cruz]

But I paid it off to build him.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know, but you taught them the best way to have a quality life is be throwing this plastic around. And then they threw the plastic around, so. Absolutely. So, yeah, I think, you know, end of the year is fine, three months is fine, whatever you want to do. But you need to put a set date on it. And then you need to start asking yourself what must be true in my life for me to be okay emotionally when they leave and what must be true in their life for them to actually be able to eat and not be in the homeless shelter. So we got to help them between now and Christmas. We got to have a plan. And the great news is that everyone in this story gets to grow up. Everyone here gets to have dignity, standalone adult dignity for the first time ever in and first time since you had a four year old for you. And it's first time for them because they don't have the dignity of being a standalone adult. They're, you know, stuck.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

In their mother's mess.

[George Camel]

Yeah. And weirdly, you guys are kind of the same age financially as you continue to learn how to handle money. Because it sounds like say, but you know, getting even. Just the basics, principles, the common sense principles that we talk about on this show implemented in your life is one of the first steps. So if you hold on the line, Christian's gonna pick up and we'll just give you guys like three copies of Total Money Makeover. I think just starting from the basic and learning the baby steps and all three of you guys will be learning this at the same time. But that's a, I mean, that's a beautiful gift of, you know, the humility to say, kids, I did this really wrong and the way I taught you and showed you how money works.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. I got bad news.

[George Camel]

We're gonna do the opposite.

[Dave Ramsey]

The good news is you're getting ready to be a grown up on your own. The bad news is you're getting read, be a grown up on your own. And so, yeah, that's, that's, that's not.

[George Camel]

A bad mom move.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, that's, that's a good mom.

[George Camel]

Yes, exactly. So don't have the shame and the guilt around.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good mom's going to say, I made a mistake and I'm going to fix this. Bad news is I made a mistake. The good news is I'm going to not make a mistake anymore. Amy's in New York City. Hey, Amy, what's up?

[Rachel Cruz]

Hi, Dave, how are you? Rachel, thank you so much for taking my call. Sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

How can we help?

[Rachel Cruz]

So my husband is being relocated from New York City to Tennessee and we're preparing for this big move in our life. We've got quite a bit of equity in our home now and we're looking at neighborhoods and I'm trying to figure out would it be best for us to try to find a home where we could pay for it with little to no mortgage, but we would probably have to do some work and fix things or is it better to take out a smaller, more mortgage get move, you know, our family very much.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much equity are you coming out of New York city with?

[Rachel Cruz]

About 600,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

And where in Tennessee are you moving?

[Rachel Cruz]

We're going to be looking outside of Memphis.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, suburbs of Memphis, you can buy a $600,000 home and that doesn't require repairs.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. So we're looking at school districts. So we have three littles. So based upon kind of school district. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Collierville, you can do $600,000 house.

[George Camel]

Can you now? Germantown and all that area. I don't know. So, I mean, that is actually where those are nicer. Those are very nice suburbs. And, and I know you want to get your kids. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

The median house price in America is 441,000. That's the middle in America, Memphis would be sitting right in the middle. And so that's the median house price.

[George Camel]

Have you looked, Amy, at those houses? I mean, have you, have you guys been looking online?

[Rachel Cruz]

So we've been looking online and we've been working with an agent, because we have a trip booked out there in three weeks.

[George Camel]

That'll tell you a lot that's gonna get you there.

[Dave Ramsey]

I think you can. I think you can make this work. You may be a little bit further out. It may be a different school district maybe than the one you thought, but you haven't even been there yet. So go there, drive around, figure out what's going on. The beautiful thing about Memphis is as you come east, you know, it really, you know, out. Out into the more rural areas that just, you know, an hour, 45 minutes outside Memphis, you get into some really cool areas. And I think the school districts are going to be very solid. I don't think you're going to be issue. Sure, you're far from an inner city experience there. And so. But you go look at it and figure it out.

[George Camel]

Yeah. And for you guys long term, just.

[Dave Ramsey]

To know, but I'm going to have the goal of paying cash, but I mean, if you end up with an 800,000 and $200,000 mortgage and you pay it off in two years, it's not the end of the world. But don't start with the assumption that I have to buy a fixer upper. That's not, that's not a fair assumption when you haven't even been there yet. So let's go and gather actual data and look at actual properties and look at actual neighborhoods and, you know, work the process. You've got to get some market knowledge, drive times, school districts, those kinds of things. And when you get that, it's gonna, it's gonna start to. The answers are gonna start to come to the top and you're. You're gonna be fine. It's gonna end up being a great move for y'. All.

[Unknown]

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[Dave Ramsey]

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[Unknown]

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[Dave Ramsey]

In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt free stage. Jamin and Lindsay are with us. Hey, guys. How are you?

[Rachel Cruz]

Great, great.

[Unknown]

Honored to be here.

[Dave Ramsey]

Honored to have you. Where do y' all live?

[Unknown]

Fort Wayne, Indiana.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, fun. Well, welcome to Nashville. And how much debt have you two paid off?

[Unknown]

600,000.

[George Camel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dave Ramsey]

How long did this take?

[Unknown]

About seven years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you. And your range of income during that time?

[Unknown]

Started around 130 and up to 270.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cool. What do y' all do for a living?

[Unknown]

I'm a registered nurse and I'm a.

CPA in corporate finance.

[Dave Ramsey]

Awesome. Very cool. So I'm gonna guess 7 years and 600k, you might have paid off your house.

[Unknown]

That's correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow, look at that. Weird people.

[Unknown]

You got it.

[Dave Ramsey]

No mortgage.

[George Camel]

Oh, look how pretty.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are you guys?

[Unknown]

I'm 33.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. It's a nice house. Thank you. And it's a paid for house at 33 years old. What's his house worth?

[Unknown]

About 8 to 900.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cool. And I'm guessing that you also have investments.

[Unknown]

We do.

[Dave Ramsey]

About what?

[Unknown]

So retirement. We're around 700,000 currently and have a couple hundred thousand in a liquid brokerage.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So you're approaching $2 million net worth. All right. And you're 33 years old. That's pretty stinking. Incredible. That's amazing, y'. All. Way to go. I love weird people. Normal's broke. You guys are like millennials that are millionaires. This is so fun. I'm so proud of you. Way to go. Baby steps, millionaires. Excellent job. All right, so 600,000. How much of that was the house?

[Unknown]

It was. That was the house entirely.

[Dave Ramsey]

That was it. Okay, Just straight up, let's kill it, let's kill it, let's kill it. Seven years. So almost 100 grand a year. Boom, boom, boom. While you just. While you live Life.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[George Camel]

I mean, and sometimes living on not much. I mean, if you started at 130, I mean, you guys were.

[Unknown]

Yeah, we picked up some steam as we progressed through our careers as well and started to, you know, add a bit more as we went. But we've, we're pretty intense, so when we, when we have a goal, we, we tend to go after it pretty hard.

[Dave Ramsey]

I can tell.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Pretty amazing years ago. What started all of this then when you guys were like, we want to pay off our house, which sounds insane.

[Dave Ramsey]

So people right in your mid-20s, you know. Correct. Wow.

[Unknown]

So I mentioned we're fairly intense, but we, we had a starter home very early in our marriage, so we really started our, our debt free a couple of years into our marriage. And we had a dream. We call it our five year dream. And our dream was to not only pay off our starter home, but to build towards a strong down payment towards a larger home that we could have our growing family grow and just love a new home where we can spread out. So we have three little girls and they've really been our inspiration for so much of what we've done.

[George Camel]

So sweet. Oh my gosh. So they were born through this process because I don't think they're seven yet, right?

[Unknown]

That's right.

[George Camel]

So they were all through the paying off the house journey.

[Unknown]

They've been part of the journey all along.

[Dave Ramsey]

So how'd you get tied into the Ramsey stuff?

[Unknown]

So initially, one of our employers early out of college offered your Smart Dollar program as part of the benefits package. And so that got us really, very early in our marriage engaged in terms of how do we combine our finances, how do we get on the correct track? You know, so much of what has been part of our journey is again making a goal and, you know, going after it, but also having that disciplined approach. You know, we were both athletes in college and goal oriented people. She was the better athlete, I do have to add, so I've been chasing her all along. But when we have a goal, we just go for it. And we tried to make as much of our investing journey and debt payoff journey as automatic as we can. And that's a, that's something that we started very early in our, in our marriage. So we've, we've really been all in on debt payoff and then, you know, investing into our retirement plan just from the beginning and having that part of our natural rhythm of.

[Dave Ramsey]

So it really has been following the baby steps from back in the Smart Dollar days when you were with the other Employer.

[Unknown]

Exactly right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And then plug into the podcast, I assume, and other stuff as you go along.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[George Camel]

So there's a lot of people on that 4, 5 and 6 journey where they're throwing extra at the house because baby step two, right? We talk about scorched earth, you do nothing, you love nothing. And then once you hit baby steps four, five and six, you know, you can kind of ease off. So I know you guys are intense people, you said, but was there any, like, what was the balance? We, people ask us this a lot of like, okay, so how do we know, like, is it okay to go on vacation? Because sometimes we're like, yes, enjoy your life while you're throwing extra the house. How did you guys manage and balance that?

[Dave Ramsey]

Right.

[Unknown]

We made sure to make sure our girls had what they needed first. And we just, we followed the every dollar budget plan and we saw where our money was going. If we had extra. We just kind of weighed, should we go on vacation, should we put it at the mortgage? We kind of just, you know, made a plan that way and took it month by month and we're here now.

[George Camel]

It's amazing.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what was the sport, Lindsay, that you were so good at?

[Unknown]

I was a softball player.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, all right.

[Unknown]

He was baseball. So kind of, oh, there you go.

[George Camel]

It just matched in the same family.

[Dave Ramsey]

This fun, fun stuff. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Okay, so goal oriented, intense. You follow the every dollar plan, you work together. Obviously a lot of communication. I can tell because you're, I mean you really are in sync on this. And we can even see it for those of you that are listening rather than watching after doing debt free screens for all these years. We can sometimes see the body language, you know, how much you're in sync and you guys are dialed in. There's no question about that. Like you said, laser focused. Is there anything else you would add to say, okay, if I want to be out of debt house and everything in my 30s and be approaching a 2 million dollar net worth, what's the key? What are the two things, five things, whatever, that they ought to do?

[Unknown]

I think just knowing that you're going to have to work hard, make compromises, sacrifices along the way. If you have that goal, if you have that dream, make a plan to get there and just work hard and it pays off. If your goal is worth having, then it's worth the effort to put in.

[Dave Ramsey]

I have a sense with y' all that the, you had a system in place that, that, that kind of the system, once you stuck it in There was intense.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because you said automatic, but you automatic and all that. And. And then that also left you some room to have a good life. Yes. And, I mean, I don't. I don't have a sense. You lived in a cave and collected, Lynn.

[Unknown]

No, no, not at all. We just made it a point to live below our means. We just, you know, didn't. We were really extravagant people. We didn't go out all the time. We were kind of boring in that sense, but we knew what we wanted. And people make fun.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

We've been made fun of being a little. Little tight. But, you know, the beauty of it is for the next. You know, that the. The rest of our lives together, we'll be able to grow and do whatever we live and give and.

[George Camel]

And, you know, how did it feel when you. The first month you didn't have a mortgage payment and you were like, there's no money. There's no money to throw at anything here and there's no payment.

[Unknown]

We were kind of confused. We were like, what do we spend it on now?

[Dave Ramsey]

Feeling.

[Unknown]

But it's a blessing, and we're excited about the future for sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's the first big thing you're going to do?

[Unknown]

Well, we've been here in Tennessee. We were over in Pigeon Forge for a few days with the young ones. And the young ones don't know this yet, but mom and dad are going to take a little Caribbean trip here in the fall.

[Rachel Cruz]

So there we go.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now we're talking.

[Unknown]

It just spend time with grandma. So that's fine.

[Dave Ramsey]

They'll love that. They'll love that.

[George Camel]

That's so great.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so we'll bring them up and let's introduce them. What are their names and ages? Rachel's right. They're cute as butt.

[Unknown]

So we have Aubrey, who's 6, and Hallie is 3, and then Natalie is 18 months.

[George Camel]

Oh, my goodness.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's a really good why right there, why you would be intense, why you would be intentional, why you would make decisions to compromise on things. Because those kids right there can do anything they want to do the rest of their lives because their and dads are champions.

[George Camel]

Look at these. The two little ones. They said their arms around each other, they're ready.

[Dave Ramsey]

They're ready. They've been working on this. I love it. Very good. All right, Jamon and Lindsay, Aubrey, Halle and Natalie. Girls, y' all ready to scream? I'm debt free.

[Unknown]

They've been practicing.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, Here we go. 600,000 paid off in seven years. House and everything Baby steps. Millionaires in their early 30s. Count it down. Let's hear a debt free scream.

[Unknown]

Three, two, one.

[Dave Ramsey]

We're debt free. Oh my gosh. Oh. Guys, you have to understand that that middle one right there, when she is 30 years old, she's going to start to realize that the price her mom and dad paid has allowed them to become worth $30 million, $40 million. That's where they're headed. Those are the mom and dad have completely changed their family tree and ultimately change their family tree.

[George Camel]

Peace. Complete peace. That money will never be a subject of stress and struggle. There's such a way.

[Dave Ramsey]

Never again.

[George Camel]

And that's the example they said it's perfect. It's amazing.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's just perfect. If you were gone tomorrow, would your family know where your important stuff is? That's where Knockbox comes in. The things you've done to protect your family, like term life insurance, a will and a security system aren't much help if your loved ones can't access them. Knockbox, N o K as in next of kin box, is a simple physical system that holds all your important documents, account info, passwords, policies and plans in one place so your family isn't left digging for them. Knockbox helps your family breathe in the middle of heartbreak and say, okay, we know what to do next. Love your family well by leaving them clarity, not chaos. Go to knockbox.com Ramsey to get started. That's n okay. Box.com Ramsey buying or selling a home is a big deal. And with all the clickbait headlines that are out there and the conflicting data and the drama, it's hard to know what's really happening. Let me tell you, anytime you see much drama on something, you need to go to facts, hard data. Facts are your friends and we're here to make the latest trends easy to understand. Median home prices stayed steady last month at about $441,000. That's a middle of house prices in America right now. And it's been going up about $1,000 a month. It's really not moving much, but it's not going down. The number of homes for sale hit over a million for the second month in a row. And this is the first time we've had that much inventory since. But we still have more demand than inventory. So again, prices are not going down. Buyers have more options and they have negotiating power because sellers are facing more competition. That's good. The average 15 year fixed rate still under 6%. That's good. To learn more about the housing market trends and get free tools to help you buy or sell with confidence. Go to ramseysolutions.com market or click the Show Notes if you're on podcast or YouTube and we'll help you out. Brendan is in Boston. Hi, Brendan, how are you?

[Chris Hogan]

Well, I'm good, Dave. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Chris Hogan]

So for the last 1112 years, I have been working two jobs. One like a, let's call it my main job, 40 hours a week. The other was like a real side gig that I ended up growing and makes roughly the same amount as the main job.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what do you mean, though?

[Chris Hogan]

Right now I make myself, not including my wife, I make around 215 a little. There's a commission in there. So this year it's looking like 215.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's the two jobs combined.

[Chris Hogan]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And your wife makes What?

[Chris Hogan]

She makes 60.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so you have a $265,000 household income in Boston, Massachusetts. All right, I'm with you.

[Chris Hogan]

Correct. Yeah. So I'm really looking to slow down. I've been waking up 4am 3, 4am for years, and it's getting to a point of like, all right, you know, I don't think I can do this for much longer. So we ended up saving about. We have in savings a little over a million dollars.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you.

[Chris Hogan]

So at this point, the only debt we have, we never have credit card debt. We haven't had that in like 10 years. The only debt we have is two car leases, and they're relatively cheap for what we could technically afford. And then the house, which is around a little tiny bit under 400k left on the mortgage. We bought the house at 650. 645, actually. And it's saying it's worth 920, but let's, let's call it 850.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Chris Hogan]

So I feel like we've been doing good. And to be honest, like, you're not done.

[Dave Ramsey]

How long have you been making? 265,000?

[Chris Hogan]

This year is probably my best year. Last year was just under. Last year was like 190.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, you've been making roughly this kind of money for 10 years.

[Chris Hogan]

I would say. No, no, no, no. Like the last, the last four years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, you've done a great job of saving. You've not done a great job of buying cars. The most expensive possible way. So what if the million dollars is just in a savings account? Like a, like a high yield savings account?

[Chris Hogan]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's spread throughout index funds, mutual funds, all sorts of things.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so what would happen if you paid off the cars and paid off your house? We would have 600k.

[Chris Hogan]

Yeah, 600k. We thought about that, and we talked ourselves out of it. We have a 2.75 mortgage.

[Dave Ramsey]

Why. So why do you want to stay in debt?

[Chris Hogan]

Well, there's two, at least in our thought process.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you could borrow. If you could borrow another 200,000 and put it into mutual funds and be further in debt on your house, would you do that?

[Chris Hogan]

I wouldn't know.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, then why not pay it off? It's the same thing.

[Chris Hogan]

I. I know, I know. And it's like. But to me, I'm like, okay, if I put it in an index fund, okay, Brendan, let's say eight.

[Dave Ramsey]

I've been doing this 30 years.

[Chris Hogan]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. I've never talked someone into paying off their home that called me back, hating me. Ever. Ever.

[Chris Hogan]

I mean. Yeah. All right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And we did. We've done. And here's the second piece. Okay. We've done the largest study of millionaires ever done. And you're a millionaire. You have a net worth of over a million dollars. Way to go. But the number of people that are millionaires that told us the way I became a millionaire was I borrowed on my home or I didn't pay off my home so that I could do bigger investing is really close to zero. The vast majority of the millionaires we interviewed said I got my home paid off and I used the extra cash flow to increase my investments.

[Chris Hogan]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that became. And I had the peace of mind, and I wasn't working like a stinking dog, man, you work like a dog. You work like an animal.

[Chris Hogan]

That's my.

[George Camel]

And you have been for a long time.

[Chris Hogan]

Yeah, I mean, that's my second thing. So now it. Let's say, okay, I built this.

[Dave Ramsey]

As.

[Chris Hogan]

I referred to it, my main job, I make about 115. The other one, I make about 100. So I built this other thing up from absolutely nothing to.

[Dave Ramsey]

What is it?

[Chris Hogan]

It's influencer marketing. So my friends own a company. Years ago, they asked for help. They didn't know what to do. People wanted to work with them. They didn't know how. I had no clue how to do it. But I've been in sales my whole life. So I figured it out in six months. I turned it into, like, millions and millions in revenue.

[Dave Ramsey]

Way to go. I'm so proud of you. All right, hey, listen, here's what I would do if I were You I'm going to solve for peace. Before, for the last decade you were solving for income and you did it very well and you saved it very well. Congratulations. I'm very proud of you. But now I'm going to solve for peace. You've lived like no one else. Now let's live like no one else. And here's how that sounds. If I woke up in your shoes, knowing what I know today, I would become very, very wealthy by using this formula. First thing I would do is I'd pay off my house and my cars. The second thing I would do is I'd hire someone and begin to train them in the influencer world so you don't have to work all the time.

[Chris Hogan]

Yeah, I thought about that actually and now.

[George Camel]

And that's your side gig, right? That's the hundred thousand. So would you quit the day job?

[Dave Ramsey]

Not yet. I'm going to grow this business to be 300k. I'm going to grow this business to a top line of 300k and then I'm going to quit the day job. But I'm also going to quit doing all the stinking work by myself. You have earned the margin to do that. So train somebody.

[George Camel]

But he's got time because he's got a 40 hour week job. This other one seems way more liquid.

[Dave Ramsey]

But there's no sense in giving up 100 grand right now. We don't want to do that in this conversation. You can do that later. Right now give up 40 grand or 50 grand by hiring a kid that knows more about this stuff than you anyway and put them in there and start training them how you turn this into money and show them and let them carry some of the weight of this. And you don't work like a dog. But you don't have to give up the businesses and you don't even have to give up the day job. And two years from now if you grow it enough, then you give up the day job.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

But right now you need to get off the treadmill. You're tired.

[George Camel]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Solve for peace.

[George Camel]

Yes. Yeah. And I would just be curious to keep kind of pushing on that. Brendan, that run a budget. If you guys had no payments, house, cars, nothing and what she's bringing in and then just one of these jobs, right that you're at about 175 then.

[Chris Hogan]

No, you probably just.

[George Camel]

And just do the budget and just see I mean it just like at least frees you up to gosh to not wake up at.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

3, 4am Every.

[Dave Ramsey]

Definitely not going to Keep doing what you're doing. If you keep doing what you're doing, you're going to keep getting what you've been getting, which is tired. So you have worked like your butt off and you've earned the right to bring someone under your wing and start mentoring them. You've earned the right to be debt free because you worked your butt off.

[George Camel]

That's right. And it's always funny to me because it's the number one pushback we get when we tell people to take money out of your investments and pay off your house. They start talking about the spread. I can get 8% right. And he started into all of it and it's always telling to me, whenever we have our live events, whether we're with, you know, 1500 to 3 to 4000 people and we will ask the question somewhere in the content of, okay, how many of you all have paid off your home? And you've been doing this for three decades. So in the crowd there's usually there's.

[Dave Ramsey]

A good portion of people that are there, 30%.

[George Camel]

And so people are raising their hands and, and then we always ask them, okay, leave your hand up if you regretted it. And never once in a sea of people that have done it, never once has someone kept their hand up and said, I so regretted paying off my house. Because the truth is, listen, if you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Pay it off and you hate it, just you can go get a mortgage.

[George Camel]

That's what I said. You can go borrow back on your house if you absolutely hate it.

[Dave Ramsey]

So they'll help you do that. They'll help you do that by Friday. It takes, take about 2, 20 minutes to get you a new mortgage. I mean if you hate being debt free, I've just never, it's not, I've never experienced it in 30 some odd years of doing this. Yeah, hey, you're a good dude, man. You deserve a little rest. These days, business as usual is anything but. Tariffs make trade policy a moving target. Supply chains are squeezed and cash flow is prob tighter than ever. So if your business can't adapt in real time, you're in a world of hurt. That's why you need NetSuite by Oracle, trusted by more than 42,000 businesses, including Ramsey Solutions. You need to see what's happening, what's stuck and what's costing you and how to fix it. And NetSuite is the number one cloud based business management suite because it helps your business make the right decisions fast. It brings accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one place. So you're not left shuffling a dozen different spreadsheets. That gives you the visibility you need to make quick decisions based on actionable data. And NetSuite AI automates everyday tasks so your team can focus on strategy. It's one system for full control and no guesswork to tame the chaos. And right now, if you're leading a business doing more than a million dollars in annual revenue, download NetSuite. NetSuite's free ebook Navigating Global Trade. Three insights for [e-mail] Ramsey that's NetSuite.com Ramsey live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show where we help people build wealth, do work, let they love and create actual amazing relationships. Rachel Cruz, number one best selling author, host of the Rachel Cruz Show Ramsey personality. My daughter, she's my co host Today. Open phones at Triple H825-5225. Shonda is in Chicago. Hey, Shonda, how are you?

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm good. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes, I was, I called in to get some financial advice. I'm a single parent. I have about 185,000 in credit card debt, but it's from personal and business combined together.

[Dave Ramsey]

185,000 in credit card debt. What the crap did you buy, Shonda?

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, so I lost my brother in 2020 and so it was hard for me to go back to work. So I started, I also started a business. And starting up the business, it started kind of slow and so I was using the money to basically pay for bills.

[Dave Ramsey]

Does the business become successful?

[Rachel Cruz]

It did not. It's still slow.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so it failed.

[Chris Hogan]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Are you still doing it?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And what kind of money, what kind of money does it make.

[Rachel Cruz]

Baby? $600 a month?

[Dave Ramsey]

$8,000 a month?

[Rachel Cruz]

No. $600.

[Dave Ramsey]

$600 a month. Okay. Yeah, that's different. Okay. What is the business?

[Rachel Cruz]

It's credit repair.

[Dave Ramsey]

And did what? How do you spend money on credit repair?

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm spending money on it.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, you said so you mean you're just, you were borrowing money to eat because you weren't making a living?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Yeah. And not only that, I was investing in different things with the money as well. Like basically I try to do the, the flipping the homes and I was pulling money off the cars to do that. So it was like I was losing money trying to do different investments.

[George Camel]

What are you doing now?

[Rachel Cruz]

I work in security.

[Dave Ramsey]

And what do you make?

[Rachel Cruz]

40,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's the most money you ever made in your life in a year?

[Rachel Cruz]

60,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right.

[Rachel Cruz]

I have a degree in criminal justice.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right.

[George Camel]

Is this all the debt you have, Shonda, or the credit cards? Are there any student loans or car loans?

[Rachel Cruz]

I have student loans and a car loan. Yes. And I have a home.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, what do you owe on the car?

[Rachel Cruz]

The car owe about 25,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And what do you owe on your student loans?

[Rachel Cruz]

36,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[George Camel]

And all this is on top of the 185, correct?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. So my thing was I was thinking about bankruptcy, but I was like, let me get some. But I don't see no other way. I didn't look for the job. That's not. I can't really do that because I have a younger daughter that's 10 and I have an older daughter that start college in August, so she wouldn't be able to help as much with my child if I did decide to go and get a second job.

[Chris Hogan]

So.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Well, you have a car that you can't afford and student loans are. Student loans are not bankruptible.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So they're going to stay there no matter what happens. And I mean, you could turn the car in in the bankruptcy and if you're going to file bankruptcy, please God, turn the car in because it's just, It's. You make 40,000, you don't need a $25,000 car, period. There's no planet that. That works on. And so I remember being scared to death 35 years ago when Sharon and I lost everything. Shonda. And. And I was overwhelmed with the debt and the collectors calling and everything else. And the only thing I did right in that period of time was I really wanted to dig in and figure out what I had done that set me up for this, what mistakes I made, what. What philosophies or things I believe that were lies. Okay. And you told me two or three different things that are Internet TikTok get rich quick schemes. Even your, Even your credit repair thing was a get rich quick scheme. It's not. It's not even a viable business. We don't do it because it's not viable. Can't make enough to pay somebody to do it here or I'd be doing it. And the irony is you're doing credit repair. That's an irony. That's ridiculous. And so the, you know, so, so. But you've fallen for these things, trying to get to get ahead rather than developing a steady career path with your criminal justice degree and background. That moves you up, up, up, up, up to where you start making some really Good money. If during the time that you tried all these things that were get rich quick things, if instead you had taken that same amount of energy and poured it into your career, you'd probably be making 100k right now.

[Rachel Cruz]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's what I. If you've got to go through this kind of hell and I'm sorry you're there, for goodness sakes, learn the lessons from the hell, okay? And that's what Sharon and I said. If we're going to go through this, we're going to learn what was broken in Dave that set us up for this fall. And we looked at that and said, okay, why did I fall for building a house of cards? What was driving inside of me? What was broken? And it was a spiritual walk in my faith, my God walk that allowed me to repair the insides as we were restarting our lives after a bankruptcy. So if I'm in your shoes, I'm going to talk about selling my car and getting out of that and I'm going to talk about what I can do in the criminal justice field to add to my income and move up in my career. And just don't pay the credit cards and don't pay the student loans for a while. And let's see if you could get your budget set up right. Even if it doesn't look like where you can pay it all today, I don't see how you can pay it with where you are today. But where you are today is not your destiny. Your destiny is to make more. And so if you just don't pay them and they don't ever get around to suing you and the student loans just stack up and the credit cards just stack up and go bad, cut them all up, get rid of the stupid car payment, get you a hooptie to get back and forth to work and get out of this dadgum $600 car pay because you got ripped off on that thing too, I'm positive. And then just let your. Let your stuff just go bad. And then as you start making some money, you could start working, you know, pay off the student loan first and then start.

[George Camel]

Well, usually they'll settle, especially with the credit cards.

[Dave Ramsey]

Credit cards will settle for pennies on the dollar.

[George Camel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, you could go through and settle these credit cards over the next five years and, you know, end up getting completely out of debt for 25 or $30,000. But you gotta. That's a long way from where you are right now. So hang on, we're gonna sign you up for financial Peace University. And for every dollar our budgeting, we're gonna pay for it to help you get started because I remember being scared. But you gotta start aiming at something steady, steady growth. Be the tortoise, don't be the you.

[Unknown]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Our question today is brought to you by why Refi? If you're struggling with defaulted private student loans, why Refi offers a great solution to get you back on track. For a low fixed rate that has more flexibility, go to y refi.com Ramsey that's the letter y r e f y.com Ramsey might not be in all states.

[George Camel]

Today's question comes from Betsy in Oklahoma. A year ago I met the man of my dreams and we've been discussing marriage. This would have thrilled me earlier in our relationship, but it causes me anxiety now because of his out of control spending. He filed bankruptcy and worked seven days a week at two different jobs to recover from it. Despite the experience, he is still spending close to $1,000 a month on stuff that he does not need like clothes, music equipment and hobbies that he hasn't taken up yet. He is also in therapy for this problem but makes no behavior changes. I am scared that all the work I've put in to my own life and career over the last two decades could be impacted if it ever becomes our money like you recommend. What is a girl to do? What is a girl to do? I mean Betsy, I think you're looking right down the the scope of what your future could be and if it gives you an anxiety now not married to him, that's probably going to magnify once you guys get married. So I mean it's one of those things that money fights and money problems are one of the leading causes of divorce in America and there's a reason why. Because people get into a marriage and they cannot agree on their money, and it causes so much conflict and strife that it's not even worth it anymore. And so if you are not in alignment and feel comfortable with him on this subject, then moving forward into marriage, I don't see a way that that's possible. So I'm so sorry, Betsy, but I believe that there are other great men out there that could be the man of your dreams. I know it's kind of a buzzkill in the romance world, but I just don't know if there's like a soulmate kind of thing. I think you can be attracted and be compatible with a lot of different people. And so this would just probably not end well. Betsy, from what we've seen and what studies show. So.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what you're saying is the man of your dreams, once you dug a little deeper, is the man of your nightmares. And so, you know, the first few weeks or months of the romance were fun until we got to understand that the guy has basically got issues and he's immature and he's got problems. And you're going to marry a little boy who just buys whatever he wants to buy whenever he wants to buy it. And that's a problem?

[Chris Hogan]

It's a problem.

[George Camel]

Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sorry. Yeah.

[George Camel]

It's been a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

What a girl to do. What's a girl to do? Don't be a girl, Be a woman. What's a woman to do? She didn't put up with that crap.

[George Camel]

There you go. Dave's Marriage Advice 101. I'm telling you, it's true.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, yeah, you think about powerful confidence, strong women, they don't put up with this kind of garbage. And that's what it. That's what you want, by the way.

[George Camel]

And it's the. And it's. It is. It's the immaturity to me. Yeah, that's what it. That's what it screams is that. And the idea that there.

[Dave Ramsey]

There's not going to be musical equipment and hobbies that he hasn't actually taken up yet. Yeah, this is. That. That sounds like a 16 year old.

[George Camel]

I was gonna say my 8 year old.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. No, she. She's. She's way sharper than that.

[George Camel]

No, she's.

[Dave Ramsey]

Though.

[George Camel]

That's my thing is. I'm saying is, I'm like, she. You know, it sounds like a child to the point. I'm like, it's with no consequences is what it sounds like. Except he did.

[Dave Ramsey]

He filed bankruptcy and then filed and then is in therapy. But doesn't change behaviors. Yeah, there we go. I've been helping people get margin back in their budget for over 30 years. And switching your phone plan is one of the easiest wins out there, especially with Boost Mobile. Boost gives you unlimited talk, text and data for just $25 a month. And I'm not talking about some promo rate that goes up later. That $25 price is locked in forever. No contracts, no headaches. And with their 30 day money back guarantee, there's no risk. So stop wasting money. Go to boostmobile.com Ramsey today restrictions apply. See boostmobile.com Ramsey for details. John is with us. John is in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hey John, how are you?

[Chris Hogan]

Good. How are you doing?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Chris Hogan]

Great. I'm a college football coach. I've been coaching for about 16 years. My wife and I have been on the plan since 2018. Fast forward seven years and we're in baby step seven, also baby step millionaire. So we are fully.

[George Camel]

Congratulations.

[Dave Ramsey]

Way to go.

[Chris Hogan]

Thank you. Yep, we're fully on board. My question today centers around whether we should buy home. I called you about three years ago and we were renters at that point and really my worry was, hey, we move a lot as coaches. Should we buy a house or should we just stay renters? You told us to buy, you know, we're sitting here three and a half years later and we paid that starter home off. But now, you know, we've got two little girls. Mama wants a new house and she wants a bigger house. And really to keep it simple, my worry is that, you know, we are going into year four here at this current job. If we do move, my worry is that we move and then we've got to move, you know, again really quickly. And her worry is that if we don't move, we look up, we're here for 10 years and we're still in the same three bedroom townhome. So that's kind of the question is a philosophical one on what you think.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, you know, the current house is worth what?

[Chris Hogan]

460, 470.

[Dave Ramsey]

And the upgrade house is worth what.

[Chris Hogan]

We'Re looking at, right around a million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Have you got the 600?

[Chris Hogan]

No, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you're going to have to go back into debt?

[Chris Hogan]

Yes, sir. In that case.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[George Camel]

How much you guys have in savings, John?

[Chris Hogan]

Nothing. Everything we've got is, you know, other than our, you know, emergency fund, everything we've got is in the home equity and, you know, IRAs and retirement.

[George Camel]

Okay. Okay. How much do you make A year.

[Chris Hogan]

Together right around 500.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so really, in a short period of time, you've done this with this fabulous income?

[Chris Hogan]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, all right. No, I would not move up in house right now. You don't have any money. And when you can save up and put a bunch of, at least half of the move up in cash, I would do it and take a small mortgage, maybe that would fit. But I do not want 100% of your net worth tied up in your house.

[Chris Hogan]

Gotcha. And currently we're right around half and half, just like, you know, the studies always show.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sorry, where's the other half?

[Chris Hogan]

We're 500 or 450, 460 in house and we're 500 or so in retirement.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, in retirement accounts. Okay.

[Chris Hogan]

Yeah. Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Then it's not 100%. Okay, that's not as concerning then. But I mean, you have absolutely no cash to put towards this, this transaction is what you're telling me?

[Chris Hogan]

No. And this, this question is assuming that we would have, you know, our home equity plus cash to throw towards it.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, obviously, let's say, let's say you're going to move from 400 to 800 and you put 200 cash with it it and took a 200 mortgage. I'm probably up for that one.

[Chris Hogan]

Gotcha.

[Dave Ramsey]

But, but right now you're just financing 100% of a want upgrade. And it's not getting to do with the stability, it's just got to do with the situ, with the, with the math ratios.

[Chris Hogan]

That makes sense. But you're philosophically, you're saying the stability doesn't matter to you.

[Dave Ramsey]

No. Because you could sell, because in Raleigh, North Carolina, you could sell an $800,000 house.

[Chris Hogan]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's an eight million dollar house. We might be stuck in it.

[Chris Hogan]

Right, Got it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Might not be able to move an 8 million in Raleigh real quick. But, but 800,000, that's a, that's prime market right there. You can sell that thing in 30 seconds. If you, if you did have, if you did change cities so you can turn this over. But yeah, I think you just save for another year like maniacs with your great income.

[George Camel]

Yeah. And just know if you did take another job, like if you did worst case scenario, and the fear happens. Oh my gosh, we get, you know, we have to move. Well, you sell it and, or if it doesn't sell right away, just go rent somewhere. So you don't have two mortgages until it sells. Right. I mean like there's still there's still ways to be able to do it and handle the situation. Especially with that. Yeah. With Yalls income.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you, you would land somewhere and, and an $800,000 house will sell until it does sell. You're a renter in the new city if that scenario goes down. But I know I don't want to finance 100% of an upgrade that's a. Want her desire with your household income is reasonable. But you guys just haven't executed on your plan long enough yet to be in a position to do that desire.

[George Camel]

Yeah, but in the next, you know, year or two, you guys could be.

[Dave Ramsey]

There probably save a couple hundred a year.

[George Camel]

Yep. For sure. For sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you watch what you're doing, you ought to be able to if you're making 500. And so. Yeah. And so let's talk about that. Let's talk about not doing big crazy, wild, out of control vacations that do small inexpensive ones. Let's talk about other expenditures in the household that are, that are, you know, some of them are reasonable and some of them are not. And let's talk about, let's talk about. We want a house bad enough to not do some of those things and limit the household budget and not, not on beans and rice. But just being very intentional and saying got this great income. We're going to focus it on.

[George Camel]

I mean God forbid you live like you're making 200, you make 300. We're doing pretty good, right? Yeah, I think you can do that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Pretty good place for a year. Dale is in Memphis. Hey Dale, what's up?

[Chris Hogan]

This is great to talk to you. I'm really excited. I have an issue to decide whether to pull out of the market and put everything in annuities.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh no. Who would tell you to do that?

[Chris Hogan]

Well, I've got two brokers. They're kind of dueling a little bit. My IRA is the. I don't know if you want to give the name of that one company. And I've got a money market account with the second company. And I was commenting to my broker Jared at the sicker company that I need to start taking some money out. And so he got on the ball. He wants my business basically. So he's come up with a plan to take everything out of company A and put it into annuities in a four, four step plan. Have one that matures in one year, some at two and summit, three and summit.

[Dave Ramsey]

The second guy is not a financial advisor. He works for an insurance company.

[George Camel]

He's gonna be making a lot of commissions off you, Dale.

[Chris Hogan]

That's what I. I just.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't like annuity. No, no, no. Second guy's fired.

[George Camel]

Okay, that's easy.

[Dave Ramsey]

Before he got hired. No, I mean, he's an insurance guy. He's not. He's not investment broker.

[Chris Hogan]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

The reason he wants to put you in annuities is he can't sell mutual funds. He's not licensed to.

[Chris Hogan]

Ah, I was not aware of that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's. That's how I know why. Why he's pushing annuities. Very few people push annuities in the financial planning world unless they're insurance people. Even. Even variable annuities. Variable annuities are not horrible, but that's not where you should be. First and foremost. There's very little flexibility there. How old are you?

[Chris Hogan]

You 70?

[Dave Ramsey]

And how much money is this?

[Chris Hogan]

Okay. In my IRA, I've got 630,000 money markets. 146,000. Yeah, I could give you a complete breakdown, but I don't know.

[Dave Ramsey]

You don't need to be in annuities unless you're just scared to death or something. And you don't strike me as that. You're just trying to figure out how all this works is what strikes me. So let's go back to your first guy and talk to them. If you want another opinion, you could go to ramseysolutions.com and click on SmartVestors. Talk to one of our smartvestor pros in the area, and they will teach you why I'm yelling no annuities. Okay? Annuities are not evil. They're not bad. The variable annuity is a mutual fund inside of an annuity. It has some advantages, but it has a lot of flexibility issues. You can't get to the money. It's very difficult to get to it inside of seven years. And you're 70 years old. And so if you're wanting to access the monies, you want to move some of it into a one year. Some of it. You don't need to do all that. If you just put it in mutual funds, you can just get to it whenever you want to. I'm 64. I've got total access to everything now.

[George Camel]

You're past 59 and a half.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I'm saying any of. Any of it I want, I can.

[George Camel]

Just tap into that Roth.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yep. And I can do whatever I want to do. I don't touch any of it. I don't need any of it. But I mean, if I. I've got complete flexibility. If I want to cash a bunch of it out and go buy a big, big, big piece of real estate. Which it could happen. I might do that because I'm a real estate guy. But anyway. But no, I'm not gonna. I don't have it tied up in annuities. There's just very few times I'm going to put somebody into an annuity. The variable annuities have some good elements to them. We can talk about that later. But you don't need them. Dale. And I smell an insurance person. That's what I smell. Yeah. Have a certain hint to it.

[George Camel]

Smell it from here.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hey everybody. Our summer Black Friday sale is here. Here's how it works. Each day this week has a new deal. This isn't just random stuff. It's the books, merch and products that help keep you fired up for your goals. They give you the encouragement and hope you need. So if you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, now's the time. Get tools that really work. Check back daily so you don't miss the deals. Go to ramseysolutions.com store today ramseysolutions.com store live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions is it's the Ramsay show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love and create actual amazing relationships. Rachel Cruz, number one best selling author, host of the Rachel Cruz show Ramsey personality. My daughter is my co host today. Ashley is in Baltimore, Maryland. Hi Ashley, how are you?

[Rachel Cruz]

I am great. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm me and my husband are big fans.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, we're honored. How can we help today?

[Rachel Cruz]

So me and my husband were married for about 12 years. We have two beautiful children and we are on our third. Basically we came to the terms. What that you're famous for saying is we're sick and tired of being in this place. We've really buckled down. We got rid of everything we could possibly think of without it being the kids. And I feel like, like I still don't know what I'm doing. He's, he's working as much as he can. He has really changed his amount that he gets per, per month and per year, you know, over the past four years. He's currently looking for a new job and basically my question is is what more can I do? That's not all just going to bills and there's nothing left over.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what is your household income? Income?

[Rachel Cruz]

Our household income gross is about $79,000 a year. Our tax return last year was about 80. My husband is a shop foreman so as far as overtime, bonuses, things like that, it's no guarantee.

[George Camel]

Was 80 with some extra bonuses and things included or was that pretty much just standard last year?

[Rachel Cruz]

That was standard last year. Right now I have it at 79. 8 per year. That's that 56 gross with just regular 40 hours and 1050 gross for 20 hours. Over time, that puts it at about 6650 gross per month.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's your house? What's your house payment?

[Rachel Cruz]

We rent. We've always been renters. We've never been homeowners, unfortunately. Our rent is 2250.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And how much your car payment?

[Rachel Cruz]

We had two cars. We actually gave up one and we're down to one car. It's 576. We owe a remaining balance of 11,520 and we will fully own it on February 20, 27.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, and your full time moment?

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm full time mom. I was working. I was an optician at a vision center. But my pregnancy for my first trimester was horrible. I was literally puking on my breaks and in between patients. And I had to leave my job. And our school unfortunately did not offer childcare. It would have been almost $6,000 for three months while the kids were.

[Chris Hogan]

For summer.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

What other debt is there, Ashley, besides the car?

[Rachel Cruz]

Just the car and obviously the car we gave up. We're waiting to hear back how much it will sell at auction for how much we will owe on it. I believe the balance when we did give it up was about $12,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you voluntarily repoed it?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. I know it was horrible, but it was. I didn't know what else to do versus yeah, because you felt like you.

[George Camel]

Guys couldn't make the payment. Was that the urgency of it?

[Rachel Cruz]

Exactly. We moved about two years ago into our house now because the kids were getting older. My son and daughter is 8 and just. My son just turned 11. They needed their own separate room. And where we lived to where my husband works, it was about an hour and a half commute there and back, in addition to going to and from all of their schools with both cars. And we said, you know what, let's get rid of the second car. Let's move closer. Let's cut everything in half. Mom won't need a car. I'll just walk to the bus, you know, I'll grocery shop when we get off of work. And we could just do this. And it was a decision that we felt like basically he was going to come home to go to work one day and the car wasn't going to be there anyways, so let's voluntarily give it up.

[George Camel]

Okay. And you guys bring, what do you bring home a month? Not grow like after, after tax take.

[Rachel Cruz]

Home is $5,276 a month on average. And that's with the 40 hours plus the five hours. Sometimes it's more, sometimes less.

[George Camel]

So what's hard is almost half of your income is going to this rent.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's why there's no room in your budget.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, exactly. And basically I've, I've turned off everything that I can turn off.

[Dave Ramsey]

You can't turn off enough stuff to have 50% of your income going to housing. You cannot afford to live there.

[Rachel Cruz]

I, I don't know what else to do. We.

[Dave Ramsey]

You cannot afford to live there. I don't know what else you do either, but you cannot afford to live there. You cannot have a house payment or rent that is 50% of your take home pay and be anything but where you are right now, which is stressed. There's no amount of cutting that is going to make that work. Even getting rid of that ridiculous car payment is not going to make that work. And so if you had no debt at all, it still doesn't work. There's no room in your budget. Your house.

[George Camel]

Yeah. You should be having an extra thousand dollars.

[Dave Ramsey]

A. I don't know what the answer to the equation is. I don't know whether you're going to move from Baltimore to another city. I don't know whether he's going to change jobs. I don't know what the equation is. But what you're doing is not sustainable.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. He's actually on his way to a job interview today because another kicker that's really stressing me out. If he works for a small company and he has no benefits. We are 32 years old and he has no 401k.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm not worried about that. You can't eat right now. You did a voluntary repo on a car. That's a long way from worrying about a 401k. And so you, right now you've got to. Either he's got to have his income go up dramatically and or you guys got to move.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, last question. How can I move with our credit being as low as it is?

[Dave Ramsey]

You just did.

[Rachel Cruz]

We.

[Dave Ramsey]

You moved into a house you couldn't afford with your credit. Ban is low.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, we had somebody co sign for us. That was the only way that we can do that. So is that something that we do again to be able.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I wouldn't do co signing and see, you know. So what we're saying is you took a house you couldn't afford and now we just proved it because they wanted to co signer because the people that rented it to you know you couldn't afford it. So they're counting on the co signer because they looked at your budget and they shouldn't have rented to you. I wouldn't have rented to you because I don't want your problems if I'm the landlord. And that's what you're, that's what you guys are going to be. You're going to be a problem before this is over. So I know you don't like this and I know you wish I wouldn't tell you the truth, but I love you enough to tell you the truth. You cannot afford to live in that house unless his income goes up substantially in the next three months. Like a lot, Almost double. Okay, Your, your house payment should be somewhere around a fourth of your take home pay. And especially when it's rent. And so I don't know where you guys are going to live. I don't know if it's Baltimore. I don't know if you're leaving the city. I don't know if he's coming to a completely different area of the country. I don't know what you're doing, but I do know that what you're doing will not work over the next 10 years. You're going to crash and crash and crash and crash. And the stress that you feel right now is going to be a constant thing. And it's because you took out too much house and stupid car payments. Those two things have got to go. Hey everybody. Our summer Black Friday sale is here. Here's how it works. Each day this week has a new deal. This isn't just random stuff. It's the books, merch and products that help keep you fired up for your goals. They give you the encouragement and hope you need. So if you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, now's the time to get tools that really work. Check back daily so you don't miss the deals. Go to ramseysolutions.com store today. Ramseysolutions.com store. If you're tired of living paycheck to paycheck and feeling like you can't get ahead, join one of our free and every dollar trainings. There are new trainings every week this month and they're all hosted by one of the Ramsey personalities. Tomorrow's George Campbell, by the way. And you get signed up for that. I think there might be room on that one still. We're going to show you how to stick to a budget and even find an average of about $9,000 of margin. That's like a head start. Using every dollar so you can get out of debt and build wealth. Plus you can ask questions during the live Q and A. It's kind of like being on the show, but easier. Sign up for free at everydollar.com webinar Josephine's in Tallahassee. Hi, Josephine, how are you?

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. How can I help?

[Rachel Cruz]

So my husband and I are in disagreement about whether or not to gift one of our kids money. And one of us feels like we have been generous to them financially and it's time for them to stand on their own two feet. And the other one of us says we have much to be grateful for and we have money and we should give them the money if we can afford it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Neither one of you are right. Both of you are wrong. You know why? Because neither one of you said what's best for this kid over the next 20 years. One of you said, I've got some money, I'll just throw them lollipops. And the other one said, I don't care. They just stand on their own. Neither one of you asked the question what's best for the kid?

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, what's best for the kid in this situation?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's what I'm asking.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. So we're retired, quite comfortable financially. We are on baby step seven.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so you've got the money in question. How much money are they asking for?

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, they're not asking.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, how much money are we proposing?

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm proposing $30,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Why? What do they need $30,000 for that? Grown people can't go get on their own.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, so my daughter married someone with considerable student loan debt. And they have not been attacking it with gazelle intensity in part because they keep being hopeful, like many young people are, that their loans would be forgiven. And so they're kind of not paying on it aggressively. And my son, they live frugally, I would say they live in a modest house. They don't have any car payments. My son in law has been driving a beater for the last couple years. And my daughter's car is starting to have some significant issues. So they, they have to replace their cars and they don't have the money in the bank to.

[Dave Ramsey]

Do they not make any money?

[Rachel Cruz]

Two different vehicles they do make money.

[Dave Ramsey]

Where's their money going?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

If it's not going to student loan, it's not going to cars. Where's it going?

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, they have two kids, so I don't how much they make.

[George Camel]

Josephine, do you know.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know what their income.

[Rachel Cruz]

I think. Yeah, I think their income is about 180 a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

You've got to be kidding me. They make $180,000 and they're driving a couple of beaters and Mommy's going to bail them out. Come on, Josephine. Did you just hear that?

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, he has significant student loans.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't care. He's not paying on them. He's waiting on Biden. Oh, wait, Biden's not president anymore. Anymore.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

He's not even paying down aggressively. He makes $180,000 a year and they're pissing their money away. Yeah, I'm sorry. You lose the darling, you lose the vote.

[George Camel]

Where do they live? Josephine? Where do they live?

[Rachel Cruz]

They live in Michigan. So they're not in a place where the cost of living is super high.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, they're not. They. They. They have significant discipline issues and spending issues, and giving them $30,000 is definitely giving a drunk a drink.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. All right. So definitely just mind my own business.

[Dave Ramsey]

And it's not mind your own business. It's okay to be a mom that loves. You don't want to be. You don't want to be an enabler because the math that you just gave me is crazy. It's crazy. A young couple making $180,000 called me up just on the air here and said, we're driving a couple of hoopties and we're not going to pay off our student and we're not going to pay off our student loan debt because we're waiting on the government to do it. We would put them on a Ramsey program called Beans and Rice. Rice and Beans. Get on a budget. Quit going out to eat. Quit going on vacations you can't afford and go buy yourself a decent $10,000 car and pay cash for it and then roll up your sleeves and clean up your dadgum student loan mess. Be a grown up. That's what they would. That's the speech they would get if they called here.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you know why I would give them that speech? Because I love them. Yeah, and you love them, too. The only difference you and I have is. Is in how we manifest that. What I want to do is I want to create in them habits and systems and processes and character traits. That create a sustainable life for them where they become prosperous. That's what I want to create in them. Giving them money when they're misbehaving with money does not do that.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, all right. That makes total sense.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's where we are. I'm sorry I laughed so loud at you.

[George Camel]

Scared me.

[Dave Ramsey]

I thought you were going to tell me they made $30,000 a year or something and it caught me off guard.

[George Camel]

I know I was. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. Wow. So, yeah, let me tell you, the nicest people on the planet are enablers. They want to help. And the way they want to help is they just give somebody money in a situation that they don't need to. So it's the old, the old adage of you teach a man to fish and he's, he has fish for the rest of his life. If you give him a fish, he has a fish for a day. And that's what we're taught. That's the difference in what we're talking about here.

[George Camel]

Yeah. And different, different. Different scenario would be.

[Dave Ramsey]

Let me tell you what I would do. Let me tell you what I would do, Josephine.

[George Camel]

You'd put them in Financial Peace University.

[Dave Ramsey]

I would. And I would match them. And I would match them.

[George Camel]

Oh, that's good. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, if you will, if you will go buy. If you will save up 10,000 or $5,000 for a car, I'll put $5,000 with it. So you can get a $10,000 car. If you will pay down $10,000 on your student loan. I'll put $10,000 towards your student loan.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Up to 30. I'm not gonna do the whole stinking substantial. We didn't ever get the number what substantial is. But yeah, but I would do some matching to encourage the proper habits.

[George Camel]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Not to prop up and incur and encourage the improper habits.

[George Camel]

That's right. Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

But yeah, a matching plan might be. And I'll tell you what, I'll give you, since I was so tough on you, I'm sorry, I'll give you Financial Peace University to give to them if you can. If you could talk them into doing it. If you could talk them into doing it.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

But if you guys will get in Financial Peace University and you'll start on a budget and you'll start limiting your spending and get control and get rid of the chaos and build a sustainable future for yourselves and for my grandbabies, I'll put up money and help by matching your positive moves up to 30K.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Because if the call Was.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's. Assuming your husband goes along with that, Josephine. Because you've got it. You gotta have. You gotta have peace of your house. Cause y' all are still arguing about that, too, but.

[George Camel]

Totally. Totally.

[Dave Ramsey]

But if you and your husband. I would. Sharon and I would do that. That.

[George Camel]

Because if she had called and said they make 50, they have been paying off debt like crazy. They're making progress, and one of their cars just died, and we want to come. We help them. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's helping them on a path that's positive.

[George Camel]

That's right. Exactly.

[Rachel Cruz]

Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's not. That's not writing checks for misbehavior.

[George Camel]

Yep. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Which is a drunkard drink.

[George Camel]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, you don't want to do that, so. Yeah, I want to. I want to. I want them fishing for life, not fish for a day.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Magnify the good.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[George Camel]

That is hard. Josephine, though, as a mom, if you do see, you know, your daughter, they're struggling, and. And I could see if they have a lot of money if Josephine or her husband.

[Dave Ramsey]

I could see it is hard. But what's hard is you also know in your heart that they're misbehaving. And that's hard, too.

[George Camel]

Yes. That they're not paying on the.

[Dave Ramsey]

They're not doing what they need to do.

[George Camel]

Yeah. And they make $180,000.

[Chris Hogan]

You.

[Dave Ramsey]

That one caught me off guard. I didn't see that one coming. I got hit in the back of the head like a boomer. Hang on. That one. Oh, wow. You can't make this day up.

[George Camel]

I get it, Joseph.

[Dave Ramsey]

You can't make this day up. Wow. Yeah. That's what I would do. I would do matching and. Hang on. Christian will pick up, and we'll set you up with Financial Peace University. If the kids want to do it. I got a feeling they don't want to do it, but maybe they will.

[George Camel]

This may be the.

[Dave Ramsey]

If they want the 30,000 in match, maybe they will. You know, if that's. That's assuming Josephine and her husband both agree on that.

[George Camel]

That's fair.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Listen, your home is your most expensive asset, and now you're ready to sell fast and for a lot of money. But in this wackadoodle real estate market, one mistake could cost you tens of thousands of dollars. Here's the deal. This ain't amateur hour. You need a pro in your corner. Someone who knows how to price your home right, market it well, and negotiate the best deal. That's where a Ramsey trusted real estate agent comes in to Find one near you. Go to ramseysolutions.com agent. That's ramseysolutions.com agent. Financial Peace University coordinators are everyday heroes who share the hope and freedom that comes with Financial Peace University and that deserves to be celebrated. If you are a coordinator or you want to be, join us for the virtual 2025 coordinator rally on July 24th to celebrate the impact that you're making. We appreciate you. We want to celebrate you. Whether you've coordinated a class before or you want to learn what Financial Peace University is all about, you're invited. Invited. You're going to hear from Jade Warshaw, George Camel, Dr. John DeLoney and other special guests. And we're going to give away $3,000 randomly. So register for your chance to win. Register for [e-mail] rally or click the link in the show notes on the debt free stage right here in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions. Darren and Stephanie are with us. Hey, guys, how are you?

[Unknown]

Good. Dave, how are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What are y'? All Stuff.

[Unknown]

Odin in Maryland.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, fun.

[Unknown]

Halfway between Baltimore and D.C. gotcha.

[Dave Ramsey]

Welcome to Nashville.

[Rachel Cruz]

Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

All the way. Here to do a debt free scream. How much debt have you paid off?

[Unknown]

208, 000 in the last four years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you.

[George Camel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dave Ramsey]

Way to go. And your range of income during that time?

[Unknown]

145 to 185.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, there's that 180 thing again. The 200.

[George Camel]

They paid off debt.

[Dave Ramsey]

Look at that. I know. $200,000 in debt in four years. What kind of debt was this?

[Unknown]

That was our house.

[Dave Ramsey]

You paid off your house?

[Unknown]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. In Maryland. What's that house worth right now?

[Unknown]

Anywhere from 370 to 380.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. Good for you, man. Rowdy. I love it. Congratulations. What do y' all do for a living?

[Unknown]

I'm in public safety and I'm a social worker.

[Dave Ramsey]

Awesomeness. Very cool.

[George Camel]

So great, you guys.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what made you, four years ago, decide to pay off your house? How'd you get in touch with this Ramsey stuff? Stuff.

[Unknown]

So I guess the story started a little earlier than that. Back in my early 20s, a friend of mine, during our small group meetings at the church, actually put together a financial seminar for our young adults. At the end of that, he gave some notes. And those notes were, hey, if you need some more B biblical principles, please see daveramsey.com never went on daveramsey.com at the time. However, back in 2020, something was going on in our country. Yeah, And I was doing some cleaning around the house, and I actually found those notes from that conference that was put together.

[George Camel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Unknown]

I did go on that time. I started with the book and never turned back from there.

[George Camel]

Unbelievable.

[Dave Ramsey]

So, Stephanie, he has a Covid obsession.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

With this Ramsey stuff.

[Unknown]

He does.

[Dave Ramsey]

You come home and go, what?

[Unknown]

Well, I was actually home, too, because I was teleworking full time.

[Dave Ramsey]

Of course. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So he brings it up, and I said, what are you talking about? We're doing what, like a budget and this and that? And he was like, yeah, we're just going to go for it. I'm tired of paying bills and I'm tired of paying this home, and we're just going to do it. And said, okay. I looked at him and I was like, I trust you. Go for it. Let's go.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[George Camel]

That's amazing. Did you all have other consumer debt during that time? So was it mostly just the house?

[Unknown]

So we got married in 2017, and in those first four years, we paid off about 107,000 of other consumer debt.

[George Camel]

My gosh.

[Unknown]

That was before knowing the Ramsey plan.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you already just didn't like debt, right?

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you weren't. It wasn't hard. It wasn't hard to convince you, right?

[Unknown]

No, it was not.

No, it wasn't.

[George Camel]

That is so crazy. Okay. And so then you guys had this lofty goal to pay off your house.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So it started with reading the book. Then. Then we went through fpu. I also ran some FPU courses as a coordinator.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, wow.

[Unknown]

My wife pushed me to also do financial coach master training.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow.

[Unknown]

I wasn't going to do it because of the. And my wife told me I needed to do it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So since reading Total Money Makeover, it's just been all gas, no breaks, and trying to tell everybody that I can about it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

Literally anyone and everyone, thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

We appreciate it.

[George Camel]

Please.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know he's bothersome, but we like him. Yeah. This is great.

[Unknown]

Anyone and everyone he sees, he's like, come on. Like, you know, we. We started this, and you can do it, too. We're young. We're 39 and 40 years old. So it's. Come on, our family, our siblings, our friends, you guys can do it.

[George Camel]

Have you convinced people or most people, like, okay, Darren, what's going on?

[Dave Ramsey]

We.

[Unknown]

We've convinced some and others have just continued to watch on the sidelines.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Some of them are on the journey as well, and they doing their first three or four steps and.

[George Camel]

Yeah, that's amazing. You guys. Incredible. And it paid off. Half house at 40.

[Unknown]

At 40.

[Dave Ramsey]

How's that feel?

[Unknown]

Amazing. I asked the next month, I said, so can we get more fun money now that we don't have a mortgage?

[George Camel]

Yes.

[Unknown]

I need to go shopping. Obviously.

[Dave Ramsey]

Here, here. So what's the first. Seriously, what's the first big thing you're going to do to enjoy the money now that you've gotten out?

[Unknown]

So we have been traveling a lot, so I think that's instead of thinking about paying the mortgage every month, it's kind of, where are we going next? And that's kind of what it's been.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's the coolest thing you've done? Travel, like, lately?

[Unknown]

Well, we just went to the final four in April.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's pretty cool.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, we.

[Unknown]

That's our tradition yearly vacation.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Unknown]

I still owe her a Europe trip.

Yes.

Got canceled twice from COVID Oh, man. So that will be up. Up next then, as well as a new car.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Good. Good for y'.

[Rachel Cruz]

All.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well done. I'm so proud of you.

[George Camel]

It had two little ones.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yes.

[George Camel]

During the time or were they.

[Unknown]

Yes, they were during the time.

[George Camel]

Okay. So part of it. Oh, yeah, there they are. Sweet.

[Unknown]

Kind of in. In 2020, when that happened, we had actually just made a big dumb mistake. Dave and I bought. We bought a new car, a brand new car. So three months later was after I got into the journey, and then I kind of just kicked myself in the butt because I knew I shouldn't have done it at the time. But the 0% kind of, you know, entices you and you kind of talk each other into it.

[Chris Hogan]

It.

[Unknown]

So then after getting out of that car, then it was, we're getting done with the house. And during that time, right after we got the car, that was when we found out that Stephanie was pregnant.

[George Camel]

And it all happened all in what, four years? So. Great.

[Unknown]

And we did pay off that car pretty quickly. Took us maybe five to six months to pay it off.

[George Camel]

Good.

[Unknown]

Yeah. We were like, we're not doing this. Come on now. Yeah, get rid of it. Yeah. So we got rid of it pretty quickly. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, congratulations, you guys. Okay. You're a master coach now. And you're life reflects that. You've been successful, both of you. What do you tell people? The key to getting out of debt is really.

[Unknown]

It's cliche, of course, around here, but the budget. The budget, the budget. Budget is definitely not a four letter word, despite what people act like it is. But I think really, I was one of those doing the budget in my head. And, you know, just. We made enough. We always paid the bills every single month.

[Dave Ramsey]

Month.

[Unknown]

But there wasn't that guide to really direct what we're doing before the month begins and then have a plan throughout the month, every single day.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So good.

[Dave Ramsey]

Stephanie.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Never give up and listen to your partner. If you do have a partner, keep the budget, stay consistent, and just keep going. And if you have a support system that's there to push you and cheerleaders, lean on to them.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Amen. Good job, you guys. Very proud of you. Very proud of you. Good work. Good work. Yeah. Get this lady a trip to Europe, dude.

[Unknown]

Yes.

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

She's, she's, she's ready. And. And you guys have earned it. You've lived like no one else. And you're 40 years old. You got a paid for house in freaking Maryland. That's a big deal. It's a big deal. Way to go. All right, bring the kiddos up here. Let's introduce them. I want to know their names and ages and have they been practicing any debt free screams.

[Unknown]

My son actually wrot his own song.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, wow. I like it.

[Unknown]

This is Lucia.

[George Camel]

What are their shirts say?

[Unknown]

I'm also their why. And his says their why.

[George Camel]

I'm their wife. I'm also their wife. Y' all are adorable. Oh, my gosh.

[Unknown]

Yesterday was DJ's fourth birthday and today is Lucia's first birthday.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, there you go. There you go.

[George Camel]

So close together. Yes.

[Unknown]

Three years.

[George Camel]

Crazy. Oh, my gosh.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's wonderful.

[George Camel]

Oh, happy birthday, birthday, kids.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Yay. Well, these kids have had their whole family tree changed because mom and dad decided to work together towards a goal that was bigger than themselves. Way to go. All right. Darren and Stephanie, D.J. and Lucia from Baltimore, Maryland area. 208,000 paid off in four years, making 145 to 185. Count it down. Let's hear a debt free scream.

[Unknown]

Three, two, one.

[Dave Ramsey]

We are debt free.

[George Camel]

D.J. smiling. Look at him.

[Dave Ramsey]

He's ready, man. I love it. Congratulations, you guys. We're proud of you, Sam. Our scripture of the day is Ecclesiastes 10:10. If the axe is dull and its edge unsh sharpened, more strength is needed. But skill will bring success. Claude McDonald said, if hard work is the key to success, most people would rather pick the lock. Michael is in Detroit. Hey, Michael. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[Chris Hogan]

Good afternoon, Dave. Thanks for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. What's up?

[Chris Hogan]

Well, my financial advisors come to me recommending structured notes for the portion of my savings that I won't be touching for five to 10 years. Years. I'm retired, 55, no debt, about $2 million in savings. I've been told they have a downside protection up to 30% and upside greater than the S and P. They could be laddered for liquidity and possibly sold through exchanges. So I get that they're complicated, but if I do my due diligence, where's the downside? It just seems too good to be true.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, let me put it to you this way, okay? I'm 64. My net worth is hundreds of millions of dollars, okay? The amount of money I have in structured notes is zero. Okay? And when I meet with people that have net worths in excess of $10 million, $20 million, which I often do, the number of them that play with structured notes is really, really close to zero. This is an ultra high risk derivative product. It's set up to, you can ladder them, but the laddering only lowers some of the risk because that just means if two rungs break off the ladder, that's all you lose. That's all that means. And so you can outperform the S and P simply by buying mutual funds that outperform the S and P. I do it all the time. It's not really rocket science. And so this is, I don't, I'm really confused why someone with a $2 million net worth, why a competent advisor would actually recommend something that has as much risk. I'm appalled, actually.

[Chris Hogan]

Can you, can you explain what the risk is? So people, I've gotten both sides of the book. Answer.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's mainly volatility. It's mainly volatility because it depends on what it is. I mean, there's all kinds of structured notes, but they're derivatives, which means they lay in the background and copy something else. And so you can, you can buy a structured note that copies the S and P. You can buy a structured note that's mirrored after bonds. And you know, but there's no point in doing all of that when you could just simply buy the S and P, you know, or just buy a mutual fund that has a 20 year track record of outperforming the S and P. There's no reason to be in the direct background running a derivative product and the risk is just volatility. And I mean, I don't think you're going to lose 100% of your money. It's just the, it's not worth it. The juice isn't worth the squeeze as far as I'm concerned. And I think it's highly inappropriate for an investment advisor with someone with only a $2 million net worth to be suggesting that someone play with this. So I, I think he's questionable on his fiduciary responsibility personally. But I would get a different investment advisor is what I'm saying. I wouldn't, I wouldn't stick with somebody that did that. This guy's a player.

[George Camel]

Are they pretty common? No, I feel like, Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like it's not.

[Dave Ramsey]

Like a. I mean, how many times on this show have you had somebody ask you that question? Yes. Never.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so, but the reason is, it's a, it's, it's. There was a thing. What was it? What was the year, I guess it was when the mortgage backed securities in 2008, when we had all that crash. Derivatives. Everybody was talking about derivatives then. Everybody was derivatives. Derivatives. Derivatives, which is just simply a product that lays in the background and mirrors something else. It's a, it comes out of derives from derivative. That's how the, the language works, in other words. And so. But it's, it's, it's not an actual product. It's something that's trying to act like it's a product. And so.

[George Camel]

And the volatility is what? When the market goes down, you lose more of it?

[Dave Ramsey]

Because it doesn't mirror it exactly. It's mirrored on a leverage plane. And so you're gonna, it's just. The volatility is gonna be. No, there's no sense of just. We don't need to do a masterclass on something you shouldn't do. So just. I wouldn't do it, Michael. You do what you wanna do. But the. I don't find it to be normative to be used by wealthy people. People. And so what I. One of my things I learned a long time ago when I went broke, I started interviewing millionaires. And then when I became a millionaire, I started interviewing billionaires. And I said, how did you do that? And then we did the largest study on millionaires that's ever been done in North America. And we got good data there on where wealth really comes from. And it doesn't come from playing with crap like this. You just don't see it. And so it's not bitcoin. It's not that bad, but it's just not that good. It's not worth the trouble for the juice and worth the squeeze. It's, you know, there's too much risk for the. And volatility for the supposed questionable returns. And so no all of that babbling to say I wouldn't do it. Kayla's with us in Minneapolis. Hi, Kayla. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[Rachel Cruz]

Hi, Dave. Hi, Rachel. Thank you for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure was. What's up?

[Rachel Cruz]

All right, my question is, should I sacrifice time with my kids to get a second job to pay off my debt? The backstory to that is I was once debt free, except for my home, thanks to your plan. And I went through a few traumatic things in my life, one of them being domestic assault. The second one was my older child attempting suicide. So through all of this, I. I plummeted and got back into debt. I currently owe $22,675.08 on my car, and I have a credit card for $15,440.18.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's your. What's your income, kiddo?

[Rachel Cruz]

My. My employment income, as well as child support, I gross 78,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

And when was the last traumatic episode?

[Rachel Cruz]

A little over a year ago.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because it's still catching in your throat. I can hear it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. I'm sorry. And you're a single mom and the kids are how old?

[Rachel Cruz]

15 and 8.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And the 15 year old is the one that had some mental health struggles. Right? Right.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Not sell my car, but I'm gonna be home for that 15 year old.

[Rachel Cruz]

So that is one of the biggest conflicts I'm having with this, other than the other job, is I drive for my job about 50 to 60,000 miles a year. And having that reliability of the vehicle is extremely important. I know that you can find reliable vehicles elsewhere too, but with knowing that this is a good, constant, steady job, I'm really having a hard time doing that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I'm going to find a good, reliable vehicle where I can get out of debt without having to work an extra job. So I can be there for a 15 year old that attempted suicide 18 months ago.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm not willing to trade a car for that.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

There's not a. There's not a circumstance you can make me believe the car is worth that.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because I think. I think you want to be there with her, don't you?

[Rachel Cruz]

Absolutely. But the way I'm. I've been listening to you guys maybe too much, and I'm like, I gotta be so serious about this. I need to get it all paid off.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, yeah, I want you to be furious, but I also want you to have proper priorities. And right now you've got some very fresh open wounds in your life. If this was four years ago, and the kid was stable, I'd put you to work. I'm. I'm game on that. Okay, but. But I mean, you were talking. Last 12, 14 months, you've had hell in your life. And I want you to get. I want that further in the rearview mirror for you. For. You're not home at all.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you got latchkey kids.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Do you. I mean, I don't care if you want to go to work. You can choose that. I'm not be mad at you. You. But I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. What would I do?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. I definitely want to be there for him. I'm just trying to think.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Yeah. And just know that.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you're gonna have to just cut everything out of the budget in order for this to happen. I mean, in order for you to spend time with her. The trade off is we don't go out to eat. The trade off is we're not going on vacation. The trade off is I'm whittling.

[George Camel]

Are you able to stay current with everything, Kayla?

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, I've never. I've never fallen any payments. I was afraid you were going to ask this. I'm a dealer services account rep. So I go from car dealership to car dealership.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm not mad at you for that. Just trying to figure out what you could do from home as your side gig. Side hustle from home. Yeah. While you're there. And be present with the kiddos right now.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Let the family heal. Get some stability there before you go full on sacrifice mode with this money.

[Dave Ramsey]

That puts us out of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of peace, Christ Jesus.