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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to this week's episode of the Read well podcast. My name is Eddie Hood, and I'm your host, where I believe it's more important to read well than to be well read. So grab your favorite book, open up your notes, and let's get ready to learn something fascinating. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this week's episode of the Read well podcast. I'm so excited to invite you to this special evening. Actually, it's an afternoon at this point in time with author Thatcher Wine, who has done some incredible work. I'm excited to talk to him today about two major concepts because he has two books that I think are absolutely fascinating. The first one is called for the Love of Books, and this is very applicable to me right now. Thatcher not only helps design beautiful reading spaces, but has a cool company called Juniper Books where they do. I'll have him talk about it. But they do sort of special print editions of sets and other books, making them just aesthetically beautiful and amazing. And then he has another book called monotasks. There's 12 of them, right, Thatcher?
- [01:04]
B
Yes. The 12 monotasks start. Yeah.
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A
Do you want to tell us about those?
- [01:09]
B
Yeah. So this came out a couple years after the first book you mentioned, and it's called the 12 monotasks. Do one thing at a time. To do everything better. It's supposed to look like a camera. Camera aperture. Excuse me. I just combine two words. Yeah. And really, how about how to, like, bring your focus to one thing at a time and. And use that as a practice to really be able to focus and reclaim our attention in a super distracted world?
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A
Yeah.
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B
I talk more about it over the next day over a conversation.
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A
Cool.
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B
I felt like that this is a.
- [01:39]
A
Really good fit for both books in our book club. Cause we have a motto, Thatcher, which is read slowly, take notes, apply the ideas. And that's sort of what we live by. So Monotask was, like, a really cool concept for me. We're excited to talk about that. Before we get into this, though, I would love. Do you mind just giving everybody a little bit of a background on yourself? Juniper Books, how you came to be?
- [01:59]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So we're actually coming up on our 25th anniversary for Juniper Books, which is crazy because 25 years ago, it was just a hobby. I loved books and I had. I loved collecting things. So when I was kind of in between jobs, I was in the tech business for a few years. In my twenties, I just started selling books online on ebay. Literally had a $25 investment to go out and buy More books at the thrift store and put some of them online, and they sold. And I went back and bought more and kept repeating that until I was buying bookstores and putting their inventory online. And I think the biggest one I acquired was 25,000 books in Connecticut and lots of old dusty books in the attic. I loved going through those and figuring out what was the first edition, and did the previous owner's name written in it mean anything? And, yeah, one thing led to another. A few years into it, I got a request from a friend of the family to put together a library for their beach house. So I kind of invented the process that I still use to this day, really getting to know people, their interests, what their family's into, kind of sports. They like who their favorite authors are, what artists they might want in the coffee table, and curated a collection around their interests. Made it kind of look like they had spent their life collecting the books, which is like the dream that we all have time to go buy books and build the amazing collection that we want to have on our shelves. And they loved it. Their interior designer loved it. They started referring more business to me, and my niche was born. Two years after that, I decided to launch, you know, a product line, so to speak, because it was kind of exhausting to have everything be just one of a kind. So I thought, you know, what if I did cool editions of Harry Potter and Jane Austen, and I started playing rat? And I knew from a lot of the custom work that I was doing how time intensive it was inexpensive to rebind books. You know, if you wanted your favorite book bound in red leather to cost several hundred dollars, might take three or four months, and there wasn't a lot of creative potential for it. So I started inventing the book jacket, some of which you see behind me on different sets that we make. There's a set of Shakespeare, set of Harry Potter. It might be a little bit blurry. Yeah. And start playing around those. And I was like, you know, what if we printed book jackets that kind of transformed your books and while you weren't reading them, because you can't read all of your books at the same time, you have to monotask them. Could they look like artwork on your shelves? Could they be decorating your home? Could they be more appealing for people in the digital age, you know, that are distracted? TikTok didn't exist back then, but, you know, all these things compete for our attention. Why? Why can't our books, you know, kind of hold their ground and keep our interests by Being maybe even more beautiful than they were before. So that's really how the two sides of the business came together and why I'm still here 25 years later selling books and making books interesting for people.
- [04:49]
A
Oh, my gosh, I love Thatcher wine. You all feeling like it's great? So cool. All right, so I'm going to be a little authentic with you and bear my sort of the bad side, like you. I'm pretty sure Thatcher's eyes are twitching looking at my bookshelves right now because, like, over here, these books are, like falling over and they're not stacked well. And I've been reading your book and there's some really nice ideas you have in here about how to, like, deal with this. And I thought, okay, I'm getting ready to interview Thatcher. I'm going to clean up my bookshelves. And then I was like, no, I'm gonna. I'm gonna live in my mess and be honest about it and get some real tips here instead of be that fake YouTuber that's like, look, I got everything figured out. I don't have everything figured out. And this is fortuitous timing quickly, just for planning purposes. These interviews usually go about an hour. So I'm gonna spend 30 minutes on the design of a book room and then we'll do 30 minutes on monotasking. So I'm actually getting ready to build a home office. And I am a woodworker, so I'm gonna be building my built in bookshelves. There's gonna be a secret room. All of that goofiness, right? But I would love to get some pointers on how to re approach our reading rooms. I know some of the members in this group have posted pictures of their own reading rooms and how they need to get organized and cleaned up. There's a lot of good tips in your book here for the love of books. But can we start just from, like, square one? Let's say you had a blank empty room, which I'm going to have, and empty bookshelves, and I've got to move all those over to there. Can you give me some guidance on how to, I don't know, make this a space that I want to be in all the time?
- [06:17]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So I think the first thing that's really important, the first piece of advice I always give people is like, start with a blank set of shelves at least, you know, because most people are like, oh, it's just too hard to, you know, deal with everything that's already there. And, you know, so I'm just going to leave it the way it is. I'm just going to cram, you know, more books on top of other books. So the fact that you're starting with a blank room is step one. Number two, you know, I think you can always. It's easier to add more books than it is to take them away. So starting with the books that you really want to keep is key. There are lots of places in the book, in the world to give away books, donate them to local library and sell them, raise money for your favorite nonprofit, et cetera, by giving them the books. So, you know, by no means don't feel like you have to keep everything that you have. And number two, you can also keep things and not display them. So a lot of people feel like, oh, I just have to have my grandmother's books out. You don't really. You could put them in a box and put them in a garage. You're still keeping them. Or you could contact us, for example, and, like, we can make new covers for them that make them look like new contemporary classics or something. So there are different things you can do with them today. And you can do DIY versions of that. Number three. You know, I am a big fan of filling shelves two thirds full with books.
- [07:36]
A
Yeah, that's a rule in this book here that you have.
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B
Yeah, not a hard rule.
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A
Yeah.
- [07:40]
B
Some people are, you know, more minimalists. Some people are maximalists. Books are really, like, falling out of every, you know, crevice on the shelves. But I found that, like, the two thirds rule kind of preserves a little bit of order. So, like, if you add some books, you know, you take away some books. Like, if you're trying to kind of maintain a little bit of a mathematical golden ratio, you know, if you will. I think it also, like, gives you room. I see, you know, behind Gina, there's picture frames and stuff on the shelves. Like, you can tell us more of the story of who you are on your shelves by leaving a little bit of space for things that aren't books. So whether it's objects from your travels, you know, I've. Objects, like, from my grandparents and things they collected over the years that remind me of them and, you know, doing that, like, the books themselves, like, are really what they're doing, along with the pictures and the objects. Everything is telling a story of who you are. Right. As I mentioned before, you know, you can't read more than one book at a time. As much as we try, we can't multitask books like, that's a feature, not a flaw, of books. So the nice thing is that when you, you know, when you think of your books as telling the story of who you are, like your history, you know, people might come over and be like, oh, I didn't know you're from XYZ because you have books about that city. Or I didn't know you were interested in this philosopher. Or, you know, whatever it may be, you're really conveying to the world, but also to yourself, like, who you are. So I think, like, just having a managed number of books kind of helps tell, like, remind yourself who you are and what your aspirations are and what's important to you. And then I think lastly, like, furnishing the room, not just the bookshelves, you know, is important to think about, like, what's going to encourage you to read. And, you know, for me, that's like a reading chair that I've had for 30 years that just signifies to me, like, that's where I read. Like, I don't really do anything else in that chair besides read in that sort of habit. And physical reminder of reading, you know, is really helpful for me.
- [09:41]
A
It's beautiful. Okay, so logistical question. First of all, I like your 2/3 rule. I've always struggled with that because I've got like. Like this one right here is like 50%. That's like 90%. And it, like, bothers me. But one of the reasons why it bothers me is because I. I think one of the decisions you talk about in your book, for the love of books, is that before you start, you have to make a couple decisions. First of all, how are you going to organize the books? Are we going to do this alphabetically? We're going to do this by color. We're going to do this by topic. Can you speak to that decision before I get into my first big question that I struggle with?
- [10:13]
B
Yeah, and there's. There's definitely no right answer on that. Right. So I, you know, travel to, like, install people's libraries, which is, you know, my dream job. Awesome. And people, you know, everybody does it differently. So some people want it alphabetically, some people want it by color. Color blocks that's become very, you know, popular, like the rainbow, you know, on Instagram, et cetera. I personally have my shelves organized by subject, not by alphabetical, by author. I'll group authors together, you know, if I have multiple books by them. But I won't, like, go A to Z on the whole thing like that. That almost seems too, like, ocd for me. I Think, you know, part of that involves, like, understanding just what quantity we're talking about here. So, you know, you may want to just like, put their books on their side to get a sense, like, okay, if I did it alphabetically, this is roughly like how it would flow. Or if I did it by subject, you know, I've got too many history books and only just a couple cookbooks. So kind of playing with it like a canvas, like doing a design, a sketch, a drawing first before you paint it can be really helpful. And, you know, during that process, I find that people also make decisions about what to give away and what's really not important. Sometimes that might come from, like, the aesthetics and, you know, achieving some balance. Other times it's like, no, I was actually kind of looking for a reason to like, not have those on the shelf. And then that gives me the reason. So I think planning that out and sketching it out beforehand can be really helpful.
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A
I love it. So John said something I thought was quite funny in the chat. He says, sometimes when I donate books to the public library, I somehow find myself buying them back.
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B
That's crazy.
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A
I've done that too. And sometimes I find that, like, I'm buying books I already have. Yeah. And then Edie says my organization is two bookshelves, nonfiction and two bookshelves, fiction, one for the classics and other for contemporary. The fiction shelves are organized alphabetically by author's last name. So she's finding us a solution to reading for her. I have something kind of similar. These are my non fiction bookshelves. And then around the room is my fiction. But I do all of my nonfiction by topic too. So these are all the philosophy books and then essays, and then, you know, so on. And these are more books on writing. And so I, I, I think by subject as well. And what you said sort of resonates that there's no right answer. It's more how you interface with the books. Here's my first question. I'm uber frustrated by the fact that I have a limited constrained space. This shelf, right, this is my f. Well, this is my philosophy shelf right here, but it's full. And now, now if I want to add another philosophy book, I have to rearrange the whole freaking library because it's got to go down into the second level. Does anybody else feel this? Like, I don't know, maybe I'm just crazy, but now I have to like, rearrange the whole room because I bought a new book. Am I nuts, Thatcher? Or is that a common feeling that's.
- [13:07]
B
Why you're building a new room with more bookshelves, right?
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A
Yeah, I need more. Well, this is going to go away, but. Yeah, but even then those shelves will fill.
- [13:15]
B
Yeah. No, I mean, I'm joking but like I think a lot of book lovers, like the answer is just more bookshelves. Yeah. But you know, I found myself like recently I decided when I'm working on another, a new new book. It's not actually about books, it's about my parents restaurant where I grew up in New York City. So I decided to clear a couple shelves in my, my office upstairs. I'm in my music room downstairs where.
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A
I also have books and Hendrix on the wall up there.
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B
Yeah, that's a really cool Colorado artist.
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A
That's nice. I like it.
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B
Yeah. Who does these like ski goggles on famous musicians? Shannon Foley Hen I think is her name. So yeah, so I cleared a couple shelves upstairs because I wanted to put all the like books about the restaurant industry and cookbooks written by chefs that had worked there behind me to kind of always remind me like, get back to work on the book. And so I like took a bunch of like graphic design books that I had and typography and things like that and they were like double stacked on another shelf. And just a few weeks ago I was like, you know what, I did this like nine months ago. I just have not even gone looking for those books that are in the back that aren't even visible. I'm just gonna, you know, sell them off and donate them and, and things like that. Maybe see if we can use them in the business. So I think like doing that kind of periodic spring cleaning is really helpful and it might reattach your connection to that subject or those books. But it also just might make room for, you know, something that's coming to your life because our interests are always changing and I don't have to keep everything forever.
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A
Yeah, that's a really nice attitude to take, I think. I think we feel like once you buy a book, it's with you forever and you kind of need to carry them all with you all of the time. For the first time ever, when I was setting up this room, I did a bit of a purge. I went through and looked at it. I kind of held every book. I was like, am I really going to read this? And I had to have a moment. I know I'm never going to read this. And so I got rid of a lot of books that day. But I'm glad I did. It made space for the Books I actually cared about. And so every book in this room has been read or is on the path to be read read. And I don't have any of that, like, reader's guilt. Do you relate with that, Thatcher? You're like. You're like, oh, I should read that, but I'm not going to. And I don't know.
- [15:24]
B
Oh, totally, yeah. I mean, early on, when I started doing this, which was 2001, when I started the business, you know, there'd be, like, I'd go buy those large collections of books, and there'd always be, like, books to sell and then books to read. And, you know, the books to read stack, like, would just keep growing and growing because I'd come across so many interesting things that I wanted to read. But there are only so many hours in the day. And I think, like, if you're. If you're around books enough, you know what you'll see again, like, you don't have to keep it, and you might donate and buy it back like John said, but, you know, so I think most things you can find again when you'll be able to read them, when you need them. And you just like being honest with ourselves and being like, do I need it to take up space for, you know, three years until I get to it, or maybe a lot longer? Maybe I should part with it now. I will say that, like, a lot of the reason that I went into the book business 25 years ago was that people were telling me that there were going to be no printed books, that everything was going to be ebooks. I really didn't like that idea. I was a big fan of the printed book. I know people remember those days when everybody was like, everything's going to be on the Kindle and the Nook, and there are, like, five different variations on ebook readers.
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A
Those were dark days for me.
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B
Gotcha.
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A
Dark days.
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B
Probably formative for all of us. And, you know, so I felt like back then, maybe it was a little bit different. It was like. And maybe we're back there now, I don't know with AI, but if people feel like I'm never going to see a copy of this book again, then you should hold onto it. But if it's something, like, pretty common, and you'll be able to get it from the local bookstore or online or library sale, you know, wait till it comes around again, and then you'll be ready to read it. And I think that's totally fine.
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A
Yeah, yeah. You brought up AI, which is kind of funny. Well, this is Actually somewhat sad in that I was reading an article yesterday by an author who had just published a book and within a week or two, several scam artists had used AI to create alternate versions of that book. With almost close jacket, it looked almost exactly like we're selling those on Amazon competing and the buyers don't know which book is the correct book. Right. That's just frustrating. So I love communities that are veering away from AI that are just people in real printed books. And I don't know how do you. This is how this interview is about. But you, you, you spurred that thought in me.
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B
So thankfully my books came out kind of before that started happening, so I didn't have to worry about it. But I have heard from other authors and people in the publishing world that is a, a thing, you know, just these AI generated spoofs that are just changed slightly so that they can get the sale. But I think in general, like, what I'm seeing with AI, we work, we partner with authors these days when we design jackets for their editions and we have a clause in the contracts that we won't use AI or the design. I've talked to people in the publishing world. I have a friend who's starting a publishing company specifically designed to like, not, you know, have all the authors promise that they won't use AI And I don't know, you know, what the bigger publishers are going to do. Like, it's just so it's too tempting for a lot of them to generate plots and characters and stories, you know, quickly and see what sells and then move on if it doesn't sell. So I think if you follow, if you love authors and certain publishing imprints and artists, you know, I think paying attention to them a little bit more closely and what they're saying about AI and how they're staying true to their art and to human emotions and feelings and experiences, I think it might be the only way that we're going to be able to tell the difference between what's AI generated and what's not excellent.
- [19:03]
A
Can you talk really quickly about what it means to curate something? To curate your collection of books?
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B
Yeah. So I think of it as like, what decisions we're making are the things that will go into a collection as well as what doesn't go into the collection, and then also how the whole collection is organized. So I tend to think in terms of like themes and, you know, so if somebody has, if they send us a picture and they're like, this is our room of bookshelves that we Want to fill. I tend to, like, break it down into, you know, smaller subsections and really think about, like, what they've told me about their interests. Like, if we have a client right now in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, who, you know, gave us a list of, like, the 300 specific books they wanted, but then they had room for 1200 books. So our job is to, like, extrapolate from the 300, you know, books that might include John Grisham and James Patterson, you know, so then I'm thinking, like, what are other thriller authors and page turners that are fun to read on vacation? And then other clients don't give us, you know, maybe as much information as that particular client did. But I'll ask questions about, you know, our favorite artists, favorite authors, favorite subjects, you know, time periods in history they're interested in. We have, like, a whole questionnaire we send out, and they can send us as much information as they want. And I. I can basically figure out from that if they're interested In World War II history, like, what fiction and authors and historical fiction, they might like which biographies of world leaders. And we don't do, like, a lot of the curation is not just like, again, like, coming back to AI, Maybe it wouldn't be like, the obvious things, like, it's not just a biography of FDR and Winston Churchill. It's like, you know, what other world leaders since then, you know, and back in time, like, going back to Roman and Greek leaders, like, would they be interested in potentially? I never knew exactly why I was a history and art history major in college and why I had such an interest in art and things like that. But, you know, I kind of tend to pull together all these things that I've learned from books and studying in school and just, like, things that interest me, listening to radio and podcasts and all that, and just try to know, like, a little bit about a lot of things, not like an expert necessarily in anything. And, you know, use that to try to, like, empathize with the clients and, like, what their interest would be. And if I was in their shoes in that reading chair in that room, like, what I would want to look up at the shelves and see, and also what I would be distracted by if I looked up and saw something. And I'd be like, why is that in my collection? Like, that doesn't reflect who I am. So I think that curation is kind of an art and a science of putting myself in their position.
- [21:54]
A
Yeah, there seems to be a skill with curation that I want to Work on in myself. I like that you're pointing out that there's a real relationship between knowing yourself, knowing what goes in your collection, what goes out of your collection, and having the discipline to say, this doesn't fit in my collection right now. I feel like as book people, we're sort of hardwired to just like, keep it all, you know, and it feels bad to, like, take something out of your collection. Look at all the people like, yeah, that's me. So. So I think it feels like we're, I don't know, doing harm to the universe by. By giving a book away or by letting it go or not loving it enough or whatever it might be. But what I found when I. When I actually was specific about the books that would stay is I cared about those books more. I spent more time with them, I studied them. I wasn't overwhelmed by them. Have you ever walked into a bookstore since you're purchasing these places sa and there's just so much stuff that you're completely overwhelmed by the idea of books alone. Like, it's so messy and it's so stacked up. You're like, I can't buy anything. Where to start?
- [22:51]
B
Yeah, definitely. And definitely in those earlier days when I was, you know, buying a lot of used bookstore inventory. And, you know, for me, there are like two sides to that coin. Like, understanding the organizational or lack of organizational method kind of helped me understand, like, whether there were going to be some things that I would discover that would be. Make it worthwhile.
- [23:10]
A
Yeah.
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B
Or whether I was kind of seeing everything, but, you know. Yeah, I think like, lack of organization can make it hard to figure out what the jumping in point is, whether that's for reading or knowing what book to buy or just what to do about your shelves. So I think, like, keeping things kind of under control is really helpful, I think, to kind of always know what that entry point should be.
- [23:36]
A
Yeah. Very nice. Very nice. Well, just a quick comment here from one of the members. I'll read this out and then I'm going to switch gears if everybody's okay, and we're going to start talking about monotasking his second book, which is to do certain things well. If you have other questions, feel free to drop them down real quick. But John says, I am 74 years old. For years, I created a large and in my opinion, magnificent library in my home. Our home was huge. We have since downsized significantly. As a result, I had to find a new home for most of the books. I gave almost all of them away to Many people and organizations, strangely, it was liberating. I loved my library, but now others are enjoying those books. I have seen too many people pass away in their treasured possessions, especially books get dumped into rubbish containers. I still love beautiful books, I still collect books, but I'm much more discriminating. I like what Thatcher has created. Yeah, bravo, John. That's a great comment there. And then Tony says, I have multiple bookshelves, some built in and some freestanding, but they are in different rooms. I need to decide how to organize by subject. Maybe, you know, this is good. We're having conversations with ourselves about our relationship to our reading room. Right. It's quite nice.
- [24:41]
B
Yeah. And I. I can just reson real quick on those before we move on. But yeah, no, I think that's really important, John. Like, I. I can have. Well, my dad is like 82 and has a lot of books and stuff. I'll hesitate from calling him a hoarder, but he does have too much stuff and too small. Small space. Yeah. And I do think that, like, the things that are valuable to us, like, are not necessarily going to be valuable to our kids. And I don't mean, like valuable monetarily, but the books that we love, that, you know, if there are like 10 books were really important that we kept our whole lifetime, that we want to make sure our kids, you know, keep and give to their kids. Like, we should just have 10 books or a hundred and tell them what they are and not have a thousand and then just have them be totally overwhelming, throw them all out. And then. Yeah, I think it's. It's great to, like, when I was saying before about, like, breaking up a particular shelf or wall of shelves into themes, like having multiple rooms, like, this is what I do in my house. I have like, different collections in different rooms. And that really helps with the organizational system. And so being able to, like, take everything off the shelf or take everything off one room and just be like, this is where I'm going to put all my philosophy books. That's a great opportunity. And then you get a sense of like, okay, I'm going to keep my philosophy collection at 75 books and everything else is going to go in the other room. And then I have twice as many books as I can fit, so I'm going to give half those away.
- [26:09]
A
Yeah, that's really helpful. I like the comment of starting with a clean slate. I get so overwhelmed by what is there. And it's frustrating because you pull four books off and you're like, I don't know where to set these while I deal with this. Just take it all off, Start over. One last thing I want to point out quickly. Well, a comment by Edie, which I liked. She said, like John, I moved in early 2023, so I had to reduce my book collection drastically. Now I check out most of my books from the city library or the university library. I only buy the keepers now that I know, I'll reread. That's a great strategy, too, right? The ones that are super meaningful that you'll study in this book. Something I thought was funny and also useful is the concept of dusting your bookshelves and cleaning your books, which I thought would be fun to talk about quickly. Gina's like, yes. So Thatcher tells us in his book that there are two kinds of people in this universe. The people that keep their books at the front of the shelf and the people that push their books to the back of the shelf. And you're up front of the shelf person, according to the book here, Thatcher. I don't know if that's changed. Why are you in front of the shelf person? And you mentioned that the downside is that you get dust behind the books, and then you got a problem.
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B
So, yeah, it's one of those things where I feel like I don't really understand why anybody would put their books.
- [27:16]
A
At the back of the shelf.
- [27:17]
B
But, yeah, no, I like a quarter inch from the front of the shelf. It just seems very orderly. And the books are participating in the room. And I think if I push my books to the back, like, I would just be too tempted to put lots of stuff in front of them, and then I wouldn't be able to see the books, and then I wouldn't feel also like I could pull them off without knocking over, you know, my Gumby sculpture or something.
- [27:41]
A
And then.
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B
But the downside is, yeah, it is dusty behind the books. And so the only way to clean them is basically to take off the books. It's kind of hard to reach back there and, you know, get anything, get all the dust out. But that, you know, gives you an opportunity to periodically do that spring cleaning and a little bit of giveaway and purging and reorganization. So, yeah, so that's mainly why I do it. Perfect.
- [28:06]
A
That was great. I think we hit an herb with some people in the book club. That was fun. That was good. All right, let's switch gears now. We've got a few. We've got about 25 more minutes with Thatcher here, and I want to talk about monotasking. So can you tell us why you switched gears? Why. Why did you write the book the 12 monotasks?
- [28:21]
B
Yeah, so I mean, in my mind it's like, it's very related. It's like a companion book it grew out of. Basically, I went about eight years ago, I had cancer. I had non Hodgkin's lymphoma. Pretty soon after that, I got divorced. Those two things took my eye off the ball in the business and I had to like, put the business back together. So I went through some pretty distracting things all in quick succession. My kids were also pretty young at that point, trying to be a good, involved parent. And I got to the point in 2019 where I was just exhausted from having gone through chemo, you know, 18 months beforehand. Just I was like, why can't I focus on anything? And you know, how did I used to get things done? And I started kind of doing some self examination and looking at the world and being like, you know, what method could I use to kind of be productive and successful again? And I didn't really find it in any self improvement books. And I started thinking about books and like, why do I encourage reading so much? Why do I believe in reading? And one of the reasons is it like really helps us kind of reclaim our attention. And for me, it like calms my nervous system if I'm just sitting there reading and doing nothing else but reading for any length of time. And so I started thinking, what else is kind of like reading in our lives? Like, what, what can we give our full attention to and essentially get back more at the end of, you know, whatever time we spend into it, I started thinking, well, you know, what if I gave my full attention to walking? And instead of like being like, I'm going to go for a walk and listen to a podcast or make a phone call at the same time? Like, what if I just went for a walk? What if I just listened in a conversation with, you know, my kids or a friend? And so I started thinking about all these things as being mono tasks instead of multitasking opportunities. Like the whole world and all the app companies and phone companies and tech companies and all that want us to think of, you know, how many notifications they can send us, you know, what else you can do on a zoom call. Thankfully nobody else is, like sending emails. I don't think on this call. But, you know, so I developed a philosophy that was like, you know, the way to. Instead of us just like complaining about, I can't focus on anything anymore, You Know, I'm so distracted all the time. Instead of complaining about that, like, what can we do about it? And maybe we can just do the things that we used to do with our full attention again, and maybe that will rebuild those muscles that we really need to feel less stressed, feel happier, be more productive. And the first mono task in the book is reading. So there's a whole chapter on reading. And I tell the story of how I read to my daughter and the simple act of, like, me reading and her listening, you know, was the first step basically, in rebuilding that whole, you know, difficult period after going through cancer and divorce and everything. And how that, you know, was the first step in really putting things back together and getting to where I am now.
- [31:20]
A
Beautiful. It should be said that John says, eddie, I love this guy. He says, same here. John made me appreciate little things like walks and talks with friends. I think the message that you're sharing just resonates with a lot of people. Some people in this room have gone through cancer as well. Seems to be a nice re. Evaluator of life and what have you. The 12 monotasks, I think, are brilliant in terms of learning to do one thing well. We just read an essay in our book club by a philosopher, Henry David Thoreau. It's titled Walking. It was a great essay just on how to walk, which you would think we all know how to do, but it's not something that is inherently easy for us because we're wired to do more while we're walking than be in the walk. So Thoreau, and you probably already know all this, Thatcher, but for the bigger community, Thoreau didn't call it walking. He called it sauntering. He sauntered. And to saunter, for him, meant to. To transcend, to become something different. Right? To. To grow in the experience of it. So let's. Let's break down one of these monotasks. I mean, for you, Thatcher, what does it mean to. What does it mean to. Monologue.
- [32:24]
B
Yeah, and actually, I'm sure I definitely quoted Walden in, like, the first chapter of the book. The chapter. First page of the chapter, walking. So for me, monotasking anything, the first step is really just like putting down my phone. It's the biggest source of distraction these days. And, you know, if it's safe to leave it behind and just go for a walk around the block without your phone, like, it feels so. It feels very weird these days, I'll say that, because everyone's just so used to having it. And there. There was a time everyone on this call knows there was a time when we did not walk around with cell phones and everything was okay. And you know, the second thing is like just kind of making an agreement with yourself to, you know, not multitask. Like, it's fine. I mean, I get some of my best ideas going on walks or you know, I'm used to bike more and things like that, but you know, but it's not trying. If you go out trying to solve a problem or, you know, while you're walking, like, you're probably not going to solve it. But if you relax and you pay attention and you're just being present, that's really what this, all the model tasks are about. Being fully present with your senses and trying to like relax your mind and not be doing two different things at the same time. So for me, you know, it's like I might need to just remind myself to listen to the sound of the leaves crunching under my feet or the feeling of the trail or the concrete or just seeing things and then resisting the urge to take a picture of them. Just being like, I'm going to enjoy the view of the mountains that I have out my door. Not feel like I have to take a picture every single time. So I think it's a lot of those things and you know, not feeling I have to go for a three hour hike. It's not necessarily about that. It's not about how much walking you're doing. Totally just go for a walk around the block. But I think with all the mono tasks, like I recommend kind of somewhere between 15 to 25 minutes to. It's like, it's an ideal amount of time where we can pay attention and not be like too tempted to, you know, combine other tasks or get too bored and move on. And then if you find yourself good at that, then, you know, by all means, extend it. But it's a good starting point.
- [34:38]
A
That's interesting. That amount of time, so 15 to 20 minutes makes me think of power napping. Like if I take a nap that is longer than 25 minutes, I am destroyed. But if I get that 15 to 25 minutes refreshed, like feels good. I don't know if anybody else can.
- [34:54]
B
Relate to that, but yeah, I can. I take a power nap every day. That's. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:00]
A
If I'm longer though, my body, that goes into deep sleep and then I'm. I'm a mess.
- [35:04]
B
Exactly.
- [35:04]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:05]
B
It's much harder to get. Get up or you feel kind of groggy.
- [35:08]
A
Yeah.
- [35:09]
B
But I take a 15 or 20 minute nap. I feel refreshed and like the whole new day after that. Like, that's. There's a chapter on sleeping in the book and about how, like, sleeping isn't just something you do when you're too tired to do anything else. Like, it is something you need to like, practice and do well and then refine. Find the things that work for you because it won't. They won't work forever.
- [35:31]
A
Yeah, I'm a sleep princess. That's what I call myself. Like, everything has to be right at night because I found that if I get certain things right, like the temperature of the room and the darkness, like, right. So my wife is like, it doesn't have to be perfectly black. I'm like, yes, it does get rid of all the light.
- [35:47]
B
Anyway, it's working. Yeah, yeah, I sleep. I joke. I have like a pillow for it that I sleep in. Like, I surround myself with these pillows so I can only move so much and that helps me sleep much better.
- [35:58]
A
That's funny. Can you walk through the 12 monotasks you have in your book? Just list them. What are they?
- [36:05]
B
So the first chapter is on reading. The second chapter is on walking. Listening is the third chapter. Sleeping just mentioned eating. So eating is one of those things. We just feel like it's this necessity and we have to rush through it. And you might go to a restaurant by yourself and you don't want to be seen being bored, so you get out your phone and you know while you're eating. But like, maybe we should all just focus on eating. Getting there is the sixth chapter. So that was originally kind of a rant about texting and driving, but I expanded that to all forms of travel and just how we can pay attention and resist the urge to multitask. Then learning. And the other side of learning, teaching, playing, that's all about like, how to reconnect with like that sense of being a little kid. And like, we didn't think about all the like, burdens of our lives when we were kids. We just played. We were just in the moment. So, you know, back to that. When I teach workshops, one of the things I focus on is play and just like going out and tossing a frisbee and doing things that just like just doing, not even thinking. And the last three chapters are on seeing, which again is about like resisting the urge to take a picture of everything and really just experiencing things completely with your senses. Creating and thinking is the last one.
- [37:26]
A
I love it, absolutely love it. So when, when. That's when I First started trying to figure out when and how we were going to do this interview. I started digging into his book and I saw that this concept of monotasks was like, it just was sticking with me. And I work about four minutes away from my house and for me getting home is just like, just get home, right? Just get through the traffic, go into the bridge, pass the three lights and get home. And I made a decision in that car. I'm going to try this whole monotaching while I drive. I'm just going to be in the drive. And the craziest thing happened. My other senses came into play, right? So as I was driving, this sounds maybe hyperbolic or cheesy, but I saw things I've never seen before. I started seeing the color of the leaves. I could smell fall coming. I could feel the grip of the steering wheel in my hands. I could feel the tires under my body kind of going. Just all of a sudden all these things that I'd never noticed or would have noticed were all there. And it was this really cool experience as a four minute drive to my house. But I'll never forget that drive because of all of this sensory input and how cool it was. I think it was a nice experience for me to realize that anything can be done by itself. Well, not just reading. We practice the art of reading well, but we can walk well, we can eat well. What a cool book. John Moreau. I have to get this book. I agree. Is there a specific monotask for you, Thatcher, that you found is the most refreshing? Like, what's the one you enjoy practicing the most?
- [38:50]
B
I mean, I, I need to work on all of them. Like this is a book I wrote for myself as a reminder, you know. And so I'm all constantly kind of cycling through all them. I'm down here in my, my music room. A couple years ago I started. I played a little bit when I was a kid, like piano and, and guitar, a little bit of cello. But I started playing guitar again, decided to join a band last year and have really been trying to like monotask my music and learning. You know, I think it's like the same philosophy and it's the philosophy that you have about reading. Like it's. You don't just learn to do it once and then, you know, it just works the rest of your life. Like it's a skill you have to keep developing and refresh. And I really seen that, like taking on a new hobby. I play Dobro steel and then I just bought a pedal steel guitar and A lot of people were like, don't even bother. At your age, like learning pedal steel, it's like, it's really complicated with these levers and strings and all that. But I love it. I just got it on Monday and just love the, like, learning challenge of it and being like, you know, if I really do give this my full attention, you know, can I learn it? Can I make it sound good? Can I play with other people? Can I keep the other things in mind while I'm playing? Something new about, like, timing and rhythm and that we sort of take for granted if, you know, you're not like playing with other people, maybe. So it's been great and that. So I guess it would kind of all fall under the learning and playing monotasks. I would say.
- [40:24]
A
Yeah, good, good, good. I, I think for me, I definitely want to get better at the walking monotask. But I like how you said that of all of these, like, we're constantly in an ebb and flow of them and we need different ones at different times. There's a sense of needing to know yourself, like, what book keep. Right now I need to learn how to go on a walk and just be in the walk. I'm sort of programmed to get there. I'm just like, okay, we're going on a walk because it's a. It's the workout time. Right. So we go and you got the podcast and so definitely takes practice to do these things. Well, let's do the comments here. Kathy says I take pictures of everything. That's another task I need to sort through now, but it's going to be daunting. Yeah. The monotask of seeing versus taking pictures. That's good. John says he likes the chapter names very much. Yep. Edie says I'm trying the 30 minute strategy with reteaching myself piano. Now we'll use that same strategy on other activities. Just focus for 30 minutes for whatever the activity is. Shut off the TV, put the phone away. Just for 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah, I love it.
- [41:22]
B
There's some, there's some similarities in my recommendation. I'm like that, you know, doing things for 25 minutes to the Pomodoro technique. People have heard of that and yet it's, I think rather than, you know, saying I'm going to practice for three hours and then getting disappointed or mad at ourselves if we can't do it, you know, instead, like doing the 25 minutes and then. Or 30 minutes, taking a break, like making a cup of tea, go for a walk, like reset and Come back and do another block, you can do the same thing. It's just like recognizing the limits of our attention spans and our focus. There's a, there's a statistic that I quote in the book about how it takes, if you're doing something pretty immersive, 23 minutes, maybe like it. And you want try to switch quickly like most. The fact about multitasking is like you're not actually doing two things at once. You're quickly switching between two different tasks. And one of the reasons it's so exhausting and we make so many mistakes is that you can't do it. And the reality is like, if you're doing something that requires deep thought, it takes 23 minutes to switch to another task after that. So my philosophy is to like accept that, do something really focused for 25 minutes, then take a break, go for a walk, then come back and do something else really focused, then take another break. And you end up getting, you know, way more done than if you tried to do six things in those hour and a half.
- [42:46]
A
Yeah, this is the switching cost, right? The cost of switching from task to task. It's mentally draining. I experience this at work all the time. And to be somewhat vulnerable and transparent. I've got a just a wonderful son and I'm so proud of him because when he was growing up, he really struggled with adhd, diagnosed on medicine, had therapy, all of that stuff and just could not focus for more than five minutes. Was really struggling with it. And then one day he's like, I've had enough. I'm tired of, I can't live this way. So he started like asking people like, how do you focus? How do you study? It's like a 14 year old boy that's like interviewing people. And it took him about five years of constantly practicing the art of focus. And he came up with a similar strategy where he, he works for about 25 minutes in a deep focus and then he'll go for a walk or he'll go into the gym for a few minutes or whatever. And it's a bit of a pomodoro thing a little bit. But all that to be said, that he's learned to monotask for a space of 25 minutes and the kid's now in engineering school and college and he's like, he's at the top of all of his math classes and he's in. But because he took accountability for his focus and he worked through a very diagnosed situation that he deals with, I think we all have the Ability to reclaim our focus or our ability to do something well, we just have to commit to it. We have to decide it's important. We have to put the reps in. Right. And we have to. I think we also have to be kind to ourselves. I think part of monotasking, and maybe this is part of your philosophy or not, is to realize that, like, it's okay to not be perfect at this thing, to not be walking perfectly. Just practice your day.
- [44:18]
B
Yeah, no, that's. Thank you for sharing that story. I think I talked about in the reading chapter about, like, I mean, I think a lot of people are like, I'm just too late. Like, I can't read anymore. You know, I don't have the focus to sit down. And I'm like, you know, start with a paragraph. Start with something you've read before that you're comfortable with the book you love in your childhood. Like, just find your entry point and then, you know, so if it's like 30 seconds and then 2 minutes, and then it's 10 minutes, 15 minutes, like, you got to build up from somewhere. And I think people in the world we live in today, you know, are like, you know, it's just too hard, everything's too distracting, the world's too fast paced and I have bills to pay and like, you know, I don't have the time to like, reclaim my attention. And by the way, AI is going to do everything for us anyway. Why try?
- [45:06]
A
Why?
- [45:07]
B
Right? So why bother now? But, you know, all the big tech companies are not incentivized for us to actually, like, reclaim our attention, to understand what's going on, to have our own, like, feeling, to develop our primary senses and information about, like, how we feel about politics or art or music, like, generally, like, we're just being told what to think. So if we can like, actually slow down, read, take notes, apply them, you know, do all the things that you're recommending and I'm recommending, you know, we can come to our own conclusions and find the things that we love to do and be the change and make the changes that we want in our own lives and communities in the world.
- [45:48]
A
Yeah, well said. I've written hundreds of blog posts and made hundreds of YouTube videos. At this point, I think the most popular piece of content I have ever created has to do with this. And it was just that if you feel like you're struggling to read, commit to reading just the next sentence well. Like, don't worry about the page, just do the one sentence well and commit to getting through those 12 words. But try to experience and try to hear those 12 words, try to taste them, try to smell them, just for 12 words, right? And the crazy thing is, is at the end of 12 words, your brain goes, that's what I've been craving. All this other stuff is, like, superfluous. But those 12 words felt really good. I think our brains crave depth. I think they crave some sort of real app. They have an appetite for meaning. And the moment you give it to them, the moment you give your brain meaning, my goodness, it's just like this for it. So, yeah, that's great. Thatcher, is there anything that you want to share in terms of where to send people for your work or your books or anything you want them to know before we wrap up?
- [46:54]
B
Sure, yeah. So the business that we started talking about at the beginning that the For Love books grew out of is called Juniper Books. JuniperBooks.com is where you can find it. We also have a whole custom side of the business called Juniper Custom that is more for, like, curating people's homes and libraries and hotel lobbies and things like that. Both of my books are available signed from Juniper Books, also from your local bookstore and other big retailers. And yeah, there's. And then a personal website, Thatcher Wine, which links to all that as well, in case you forget any of it. Happy to hear from people and, you know, hoping to write more books and curate a lot more libraries.
- [47:40]
A
I think it needs to be said. I'm sure you've never heard this before, but you've got to have the coolest name I've ever heard. I don't know where you came up with. Whoever came up with Thatcher Wine needs to be paid money, because that is an awesome.
- [47:51]
B
I will pass your compliment along to my parents.
- [47:55]
A
Yeah, cool. They.
- [47:57]
B
We are not British, but they wanted some British sounding distinguished family names for me and my sister. My sister is Winifred. She goes by Winnie. So Winifred and Thatcher.
- [48:08]
A
Oh, my gosh. I love this family. Let's do it. We need to have dinner together. Good. Excellent. Well, Thatcher, I think that's it on our questions for today. I greatly appreciate you spending time with us and teaching us about making our reading spaces more pleasant. Thank you for spending some time with us today.
- [48:25]
B
Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me, Eddie. And thanks for everyone for the great questions and for the gift of your attention. Appreciate it.
- [48:32]
A
Yeah, excellent as always, everybody. Remember to read slowly, take notes and apply the ideas.
- [48:37]
B
We'll see you next time.
- [48:41]
A
If you'd like to take your reading to the next level, then head on over to thereadwellpodcast.com there you'll find daily posts on how to read well. You'll also get access to all of my book notes and tools for becoming a better reader. And as always, don't forget to read slowly, take notes and apply the ideas. Thank you for listening to the Read well podcast.