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- [00:00]
Alon Ben Joseph
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Rob Nudds
Watch fans and welcome to another edition of the real time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds and our friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alon Ben Joseph. Today we are joined by the head of one of the more interesting certainly when it comes to shape brands in the industry today. That's Thibaut Guitar from Alto Watches. Thibaut, welcome to the studio.
- [00:24]
Thibaut Guitar
Hello, guys. Thanks for having me.
- [00:26]
Rob Nudds
I know Alon is itching to ask a question here because he's very, very fond of brands that step into the arena with something new to. So we're going to kick it over to the jeweler in Amsterdam right now.
- [00:35]
Alon Ben Joseph
End of spring 24. I saw a very cool looking watch pop on my screen. 70s vibe. I said, hey, looks a bit he. But as soon as you saw the caliber, you know, hey, this is high end. Reminded me of the three lobe caliber. I'm like, wow, this is cool. But then it disappeared off my radar until we got a TRTS press invite to come meet Alto in Paris. And then I said, ooh, we need to get on the mic with the founder because with a surname that sounds like guitar, how can he not be a rock star? His Instagram is all black and white and we have a partner of his who has been on the show whom I'm a big fan of, Bart Nussbaumer. So, Thibaut, I want to know what the f is wrong with you to start a new watch brand at this price point. That is so eclectic.
- [01:46]
Thibaut Guitar
Thank you, Alan. Thank you. Thank you. So, yeah, my name is Thibaut Guitar. Yeah, Guitar. Like the instruments. I'm a French entrepreneur. I was born and raised in the south of France. I'm 37 and yeah, I can say I just, I'm not a watchmaker. I'm just a really, really creative person. Yeah, as a child, I was spending my time drawing, sketching ideas, objects. So I've always been very creative. Growing up in France, I was surrounded by a culture that values a lot of craftsmanship and artistry. So really, really young. I was attracted by objects of design, by art, everything that's related to art in general, you know, so cars, architecture, design watches, of course. What happened that I did a business school in Paris, then I traveled a little bit in California and Spain. And I really, really fell in love with watchmaking after graduation because I had this incredible opportunity to work at Audemars Piguet in France. So it started with an internship of six months and then I was hired as their communication manager for the French markets. Those five Years of work were truly transformative to me. I really, really fell in love with watchmaking at this period. So I was like 21, 22 years old, something like this. So, yeah, five years of work there, a lot of networking. I learned a lot about. Yeah, about watchmaking, about the culture of watchmaking, about everything, basically. And at 27 years old, I left AP and I went back to the south of France where I come from, because we have a family business from the fourth generation. And yeah, I was like, don't, don't wait too much to start working with your family. Yeah, that's a family owned business that has nothing to do about. We have watches that has nothing to do about this, this industry. And after like four or five years of work there, I realized that I need to come back to the watch industry. I don't know how, I don't know when, I don't know who with, but I have to come back. So I said, okay, let's try to do something. Imagine something that could be a watch brand or that could be collaboration or anything. But you need to come back to this subject because I just fell in love at that time. So this is a little bit like something five or six years ago from now. Yeah, I was about 30. That was just before COVID I said, okay, I did this thing. I was alone, completely alone. I didn't have any designer, I didn't contact anyone. Nobody in my family was aware about what I had in mind. And I said, okay, I do this, what we call a mind map. I don't know if you guys know what a mind map is. Like, you put basically your IDs on a frame. It can be photos, words, anything on a big, big frame. And you try to make links between those things. So it's what we call a mind map. So I built this mind map with, as you said, the 70s vibe wedge design era like Maserati, Boomerang, Giugiaro, all those Italian geniuses from the 70s in terms of cars. I mixed it with Christopher Nolan's movie with the reversibility of time, the flexibility of time, the image and sophistication of the Daft Punk, which I'm a big fan of, etc. So I did this big, big mind map. And then I said, okay, what can I do with this? So I was trying to find the link during months and months between all those things and try to connect it with a watch brand. And one day I was really tired about doing this because you do this on nights, on weekends, you know, it's a part time job. It's not something you do 100%. And one day I woke up and I said, okay, I said to myself, stop finding a link between those things. Just be the link, be this link. And from that day, everything became very clear and obvious. So I just developed my own vision of a watch brand that mixed all those influences from art to music, to cars, to design, to everything that you see now on the brand and that you will see in the future on the brand. So yeah, it started like this. Basically.
- [05:59]
Alon Ben Joseph
Thibault, you are end of the 80s kid. If I do the math very quickly in my head.
- [06:05]
Thibaut Guitar
87.
- [06:06]
Alon Ben Joseph
87. So you're an 80s kid growing up in the 90s. So are you reincarnated? If you like this autumn noir 70s vibe of things.
- [06:20]
Thibaut Guitar
It is more like I like the vision of the future people had in the 70s. Like it's what we call now retro futurism. Retrofutur. But it's really what's what I love. I mean the 70s and 80s before I was born. I love the idea of the future from the people of that era. I really love that. So I really like the risk they took. And it's funny because if you go to watches specifically, it's typically the era of ap Royal oak of like really big rupture, breaking rules in terms of design. And it was the same in cars, it was also the same in contemporary art, etc. So yeah, it's an interesting period which I love. I'm not the big fan of like old things specifically. Specifically because I'm not a watch, a brand with 200 years of history. But I must say that I really like the, the, this idea of the future in the, in the 70s. I really like this.
- [07:31]
Alon Ben Joseph
So you're inspired by wedge cars. Could we conclude that your favorite MB&F watch is the HM5?
- [07:40]
Thibaut Guitar
Yeah, you know, I know. I know very well. Max and Serge, they are like. Serge is like a godfather to me in the industry because I met him like some years ago and he helped me a lot in finding my way and avoiding making big mistakes for the last years. So yeah, totally, totally. This is the kind of vibe I like.
- [08:04]
Alon Ben Joseph
When did you decide that the first alto what should not be a casket watch?
- [08:12]
Thibaut Guitar
It was just that, you know, I was looking. Alto began as an idea of a response to a personal frustration. Why would the world need another luxury watch brand? It's true, the market is filled with remarkable timepieces, many of them backed by centuries of heritage. That was as I was saying. But There was a frustration. So I was just looking for a watch that was a complete departure in style with a strong emotional appeal and with both high performance, fine watchmaking movement in house movement, and absolute comfort on wrists and a total radical design. So to answer your questions, if I was doing, like, a wrong vintage watch, a chronograph, a lot of people just do it, like, way better than me. And I don't bring something different to this watch world. So it's not interesting for me. If I was following a trend, I would have done a round watch, like a vintage, vintage vibe, and that's it. So, no, I was. I was finding. And this is what took me so many time, not only because I was not 100% on this project, but also because I was always saying to myself, okay, as long as you don't have the right design, that has never been done before, this project is not. Is not good. Don't do these projects. So it's just. Then I went to find some designers, and after like two or three designers, someone said to me, okay, you need to talk to Bart Nussbaumer. Go see Bart. Maybe he's the only one that can help you on this, on this idea and on this project, and maybe he's the only one who can understand you.
- [09:52]
Rob Nudds
Did you and Bart get on very well from the moment you met, or was it a relationship that took some time to understand one another?
- [09:58]
Thibaut Guitar
Someone introduced Bart to me. I don't remember when. It was like three or four years ago now. And I just explained my project. I just saw explained him, like, my mind map where I was wanted to go. I had some sketches that I did, and I said, okay, please help me and try to make my sketches into real life, into real watch life and make it real. And it took some weeks, maybe two months, something like this to have a proper design. But Bart said to me, okay, here is the design. I'm not very sure that it's possible to do because this is the very first time you have a sapphire that is bombed and beveled. This is the first time you have, like an octagon in volume. You want a second hand that runs backward. So it was a bit a discovery when we started to speak. But, yeah, Bart was liked the project very instantly. But he said to me after that, at the end, when we launched the brand in April, he said to me, it's probably one of the most insane watch I've done in terms of complexity.
- [11:11]
Rob Nudds
Well, he's certainly got some strong competition with his own efforts with colloquium recently. It's an incredible era of watchmaking to be a part of to witness these creative shaped watches like Alto, like Toledano and Chan, like Berneron, all emerging at the same time. It really is a great time to be a watch collector. But tell us more about that secondhand because that's something on the inside of the case that we don't see very often.
- [11:35]
Thibaut Guitar
The mission of this brand is we, we want to explore the universal topic of time through the eyes of artists. Because I think that art is the shortest route between human beings. So the idea of this brand is to explore time perception. So when you say that and if we come back to the Mind map, I had a lot of Christopher Nolan's movie photos on the Mind map. I'm a big, big fan of him, a big, big fan of all his movies. And at the end of the day, Christopher Nolan doesn't talk about it doesn't talk about dreams, it doesn't talk about new. Like all the topic of his, of his movies. He only talks about time. He's obsessed about time. The perception of time, the flexibility of time, the fact that time is shiftable. That's the only topic that comes back in every movie and that's his obsession, his obsession about, about time. So I was like, I want to make a tribute to that cinematography and I want to make something that has never been done before to my, to. To my knowledge. So doing a movement that goes totally reverse, it's a good transition after that with Rafael Abellon that comes from Cartier has been done before. But the. Only the second hand, which doesn't bother you to retime because at the end of the day it's just a second hand that runs backward. But, but the, the, the minute an hour ends, runs normally. I said okay, that's, that can be a good signature for the brand. That's the explanation.
- [13:09]
Alon Ben Joseph
I love it. Very philosophical. And thank you for explaining the name of the first model you guys have launched in 25 pieces. The Art 01. Now pivoting to your name, Alto for me is a correlation to either jazz music, a soprano or Italian high. Tell us a bit why you chose that name.
- [13:32]
Thibaut Guitar
First of all, I didn't want my name, my surname. I don't have ego, I don't want, I don't want. I'm not into those things. I said, okay. Alto is an acronym of artistic and limited time objects. So A L T O I wanted something short. Alto is also because I used to play saxophone when I was young. And also it means Hi in Latin, in Italian and Spanish it means hi. I love this word. I love this word. It works very well for the brand and yeah, and it's short and it's. It was available at this time also. So yeah, I just. I just love this, this name. It's the acronym of Art and Limited Time objects. So. U C A L T O Love it.
- [14:12]
Alon Ben Joseph
It's a collective almost. So you addressed Bart Nussbaumer, I believe you teamed up with Matthieu Cesar, Yorgo Tlupas and obviously the Circle, the or Logieres cdh.
- [14:29]
Thibaut Guitar
We can say cdh.
- [14:30]
Alon Ben Joseph
Yeah, cdh. Tell us a bit how. How that progressed from connecting with Bart and then. And then what?
- [14:38]
Thibaut Guitar
So yeah, we. It took like a year and a half or two years to fix properly the design with Bart. We went to see in the same time various manufacturers, but Sagges understood us properly and they said okay, let's do a in house movement for you. So it was then a discussion between Barthes, myself and Cirque Desor Loger to make this watch happen. So it started like this and then Mathieu is something else. Mathieu is in charge of the image. Mathieu is a really famous Mathieu, Cesar. I'm talking. He's a really, really famous photographer in France and Europe. Really known for his black and white portraits. And yeah, so I just, I met him in other circumstances but I really wanted him. Him to be in that project from scratch. And yeah, so we are building the image of the brand also with him and is really important in the team. What was your question again? So how it worked with Serdes, Ologer, Bart and I, it was just years of discussion to make that watch happen. But complexity of conversation that you have with technical designer at Cirque and also about and I to make it happen in. But yeah, it took time. It took a lot of time.
- [15:56]
Rob Nudds
What does your long term product plan look like? Are there artists that you'd like to work with in the future that you've already identified or is it a much more organic thing which will develop however it does?
- [16:06]
Thibaut Guitar
So we've done in 24 like an homage tribute, first edition at 25 pieces only just before talking about the future, there's a key turning point for Aalto with the arrival of Rafael Abellon this summer. Rafael Abellon is used to work for Cartier as watch designer during 12 years and he joined me this summer to bring his expertise, his vision and together we try to push boundaries of what Aalto could be and where we could go. So it's now a trio between Rafael, Mathieu, Cesar and I. As you know, Bart is a part time independent designer and I really needed someone full time now to build a collection, to build a brand properly. So I'm really, really happy to that Rafael joined me is probably one of the most talented designer of his generation. And we share the same vision, the same passion. So it's a big. A nice trio of minds dedicated to create something special. So the future we are launching this in 2025. Three new models. We want to keep that shape because we think that this shape is different. We want to build a brand towards this shape first. And we don't want to move shapes every two years or three years. It's not the topic of the brand. We are doing three new models. We are announcing two monochromatic models, one full black and one full gray in a very limited production also.
- [17:57]
Alon Ben Joseph
So you launched let's say mid 24 with the Art 01. If I remember correctly, there were 25 initial models. Is it a limited edition watch or is the R01 that we see now on the market in titanium? Is that a production model? Are you going to work in chapters or you're working with a core collection?
- [18:19]
Thibaut Guitar
No, we're going to do. We're going to do a collection R01 first edition was the 2024 watch will remain at 25 pieces. We will never make this model again in that configuration. And this, this is and will stay a first edition at 25 pieces, numbered and unlimited. What we do now is we try to build a collection with a limited production because we cannot produce like thousands of watches or hundreds of watches. So it will remain very confidential in terms of production. But we are doing iteration of the first model. So the look of it and the work on it is different. But it's the same shape, the same proportion for this year and for the years to come. We are already working with Raphael for a smaller size. We are also working on a steel bracelet. So yeah, many things, many things to come.
- [19:21]
Alon Ben Joseph
So how was I able if I wanted to obtain the watch in 24 to get one? And how can I get one in 2025?
- [19:29]
Thibaut Guitar
You just sent me an email and we tried to chat and we. And we see what we can do. We already have a waiting list. It's getting bigger and bigger every.
- [19:38]
Alon Ben Joseph
Every week.
- [19:39]
Thibaut Guitar
But no, I just need. I just as it remain confidential. I really like to know the person. It's really important for me to know in person the collector. And it's funny because out of the 25 first clients that we have for the first edition. These are not only watch collectors and that's a good thing. These are also car collector, art collector people attracted by something else than the movement itself and the complexity of the movement itself. So other people attracted by emotions on the wrist and attracted by design, architecture, whatever the shape reminds them and it's cool and I like it. So yeah, you just send me an email if you want to be part of the, of the family and. And we, we try to speak.
- [20:34]
Rob Nudds
You took the words out of my mouth and described your customers to us there because I was curious who it is that you most likely to appeal to. But tell me this, how did they find their way to Alto? What kind of advertising or promotional activities have you pursued or is most of your success through word of mouth?
- [20:51]
Thibaut Guitar
Most of the people contacted me after the launch. We launched it in Paris. It was a physical launch, but. And we related that to Instagram and LinkedIn. And it's growing like organically, like just very normally. So we don't do any adverts, we don't push that much. And it comes like organically and we meet people again in fairs and we try to explain who we are and what we do and where we want to go because there's a lot of ambition behind the brand. So it's just organically. Just organically.
- [21:34]
Alon Ben Joseph
Is it the idea to expand from direct to consumer brand and have ambassadors, retailers, agents, distributors. How are you going to approach the B2B side of things?
- [21:47]
Thibaut Guitar
This is still a question I cannot answer now because this is something I wake up every morning and yeah, I'm contacted by retailers, I have connections, I have discussions with different retailers. It's just that now the production is so small that we think we can sell it directly. But there will be a day, I don't know if it's this year or maybe next year that we will need retail to.
- [22:17]
Alon Ben Joseph
To.
- [22:17]
Thibaut Guitar
To develop and, and. And push boundaries and make another steps for. To to create the brand. But now it's still discussions, only discussions. But there is no confirmed retailing thing for 25.
- [22:37]
Alon Ben Joseph
I believe you mentioned the week of Watches and Wonders in Geneva. So first week of April, let's say will you A, be there and B, can consumers come see the watches in the metal?
- [22:51]
Thibaut Guitar
Yeah, of course. If you guys want to see the watch in the metal, we are at Watches and Wonders. We will be the whole week at the Hotel des Berg, the Four Seasons. We have a room there to. Yeah. To present our three novelties. So please feel free to Contact me and our team and we will receive you at four season.
- [23:16]
Alon Ben Joseph
Yeah, I would love to speak about the philosophy of your collection. What price levels and therefore quality. You feel comfortable. I believe that the Art 01 started around €20,000. 17,18,000 Swiss francs, if I'm not mistaken.
- [23:37]
Thibaut Guitar
Yeah, depending on, depending on currency we were between. Because if we talk in Swiss francs, in USD or euros, first edition was around between 22 and 23 thousand euros.
- [23:51]
Alon Ben Joseph
And what do you envision for. I don't like the term price elasticity, but if you look at bandwidth, how low do you envision Alto to go and how high or is sky the limit?
- [24:06]
Thibaut Guitar
Sky's the limit. I mean, what we have in mind. We're not going to go into the six figure thing for the two, three years to come. I think we're probably going to stay depending on the ambitions and on the movement, on the complexity of everything we do. Because as you know, when you start to think about a watch or a new movement and a new shape, it takes at least three years to be on the wrist. And it's a lot of money spending, it's a lot of time, et cetera. So depending. But we think for 20, 25, for sure. In 26 we're going to stay around those figures between 25 to 30, something like this, except for like super exceptional things that we will do apart, which will go higher than those figures, which is the case with the gold piece that we launch this year. I can also say for the future that we are discussing and developing, doing R and D with contemporary artists, a conceptual artist, a huge personality in the watch, in the watch industry, still alive. And we, we are working on a specific collaboration with this person for this summer. I cannot say when will it come because there's, there's big novelties on the watch. But yeah, we have this in mind to again, to push boundaries and to explore time through the eyes of artists. So this artist in particular, pretty famous. So we're very, very happy to start collaborating in the contemporary art world probably by the end of summer maximum.
- [25:54]
Rob Nudds
Will you also explore the opportunity to use unusual experimental materials in your watches as well as working with experimental forms and concepts?
- [26:03]
Thibaut Guitar
Yeah, that is exactly the. The case with the collaboration we are exploring now with this contemporary artist. We try to build a material and innovate a lot. So yeah, the exploration of material is something we have in mind. But again, it is not doing a new material to do a new material. It has to make sense, it has to be relevant.
- [26:32]
Rob Nudds
Where does that kind of Research and development take place. Is that in Switzerland or are you working further afield in different countries for.
- [26:37]
Thibaut Guitar
That, for this specific development? This is, this is Switzerland. This is close to La Chautfon. Yeah.
- [26:44]
Alon Ben Joseph
I am very curious what you think of the current state of the market and where it's going because technically you kind of missed the boat of the boom in the watch market. So good for you. Because in challenging times we have the strongest roots. How do you see the coming 3, 5, or do you dare to look ahead 10 years?
- [27:13]
Thibaut Guitar
I think we are. We arrived in the worst period. We were not ready just after Covid and so two years after. Yeah, we arrive in a. In a complex, in a complex period, I think. But it's good as you mentioned, because if you stay strong and if you're relevant, I mean the future will be brighter. Because it's not easy from the beginning to sell watches from the beginning of your story, I mean. So yeah, I think that the world is pretty instable. I think that the luxury watch market, it's really hard to predict how it's going to be in one year, in two years. We all know these are cycles, but I think personally that those cycles will be shorter and shorter. Meaning that you can go from a period of crisis to a period of excitement and growth, like from a year to another. That's my point of view. There is always be space for new watches as long as for new brands. As long as a guy, an entrepreneur, a watchmaker has an ide that has never been done before. And if it's relevant, there is space for that, I think. But yeah, we are entering, we are living, not entering, living a strong period, a period of certainty. Yeah, it's hard to say that where we're going to be in two years or three years. I just think that it's a cycle, this cycle will like the crisis sort of crisis, but not growth. Let's say that we are living from the a year and a half. It can come back many. It can come back anytime, can come back in 25, it can come back in 26, then when, then again kind of crisis in 27 and coming back in 28. I think the uncertainty is the key word for not only for watch, the watch market or the luxury market in general. I think it's for the entire global living that we're on global earth and any market we are living. One question to you guys. What do you guys think about the luxury watch market? Where it's going to go? Do you feel the same thing like the Uncertainty, the permanent uncertainty, or do you think different from me?
- [29:41]
Alon Ben Joseph
You see, Rob, this is a real entrepreneur and philosopher. He's asking us questions, although he's the interviewee. Thank you, Thibault. I personally believe in watches. I think they're mechanical pieces of art. Therefore, your brand resonates with me and your philosophy resonates with me. Everything is cyclical in life. Whatever comes up needs to come down. Seven fat years. Seven meager years. So I'm not impressed by where we are today, and obviously I expected and so did many. So in that sense, I'm not worried. What I think we as an ecosystem of the watch industry need to watch out for is make sure that future consumers. So we're talking already about Gen Z is already maybe getting there. Gen Alpha is that they will want to wear wristwatches. And I think there are two things there. If schools don't teach young kids to read time in a round way. So analog versus digital horizontal, we have an issue, because then wristwatches are doomed. The same future as pocket watches. Today, listening to the first episode of Scarlett Baker and Rob Knuds on the Real Time show, they had a very interesting discussion about the fact that more and more people wear luxury watches today as a fashion accessory.
- [31:10]
Thibaut Guitar
Right? It's true. It's true.
- [31:12]
Alon Ben Joseph
Instead of just a time reading instrument, but that's true. But that's dangerous because fashion is en vogue. It's cyclical. It goes and comes rather quick. If we don't keep pushing on material and how beautiful it is, then I think we are safe. So those are my two cents. Rob, Mike, is yours?
- [31:40]
Rob Nudds
I'm not sure I agree that I worry about fashion's cyclical nature as something that watchmaking should be wary of. Because although what is worn on the wrist might change, the nature of it probably won't, I think that, yes, the people we were describing the other day in the episode with Scarlett are looking at watches more as works of art, more as conduits for their personality through which they can communicate something about themselves. I don't think that that is going anywhere, but I do think that the audience size, the potential audience size there is much, much smaller than if it included people that also wear watches to tell the times. So my fear is not for the industry in general. I think that the craft will survive. I think that it has become something other than what it was. I think it has elevated itself to a point at which Alto seems very comfortable with it being because of the artistic connections and the philosophy behind it. So I don't think watches like Alto are going to suffer. I don't think watches like the Apple watch will suffer until, as you always say alon, the technology moves within our bodies and we no longer need to wear these additional devices on our wrist for that purpose. But I do think that a lot of entry level watch watches may suffer and entry level luxury. I mean, so the sort of Hamiltons, the Tissos, the Longines, the Meos that we were extolling the other day in our article with David, but I, I do think that they might fall out of favor. Interestingly though, I think the lower, lower end stuff like Timex's, Casios, maybe Seikos, certainly things that are digital and have that retro vibe to them will succeed and prosper for longer than we might have imagined because of the nostalgia that is emerging for the analog past that is fast disappearing, despite the fact that the items I'm referring to are for the most part digital. You get what I'm saying?
- [33:43]
Thibaut Guitar
Yeah, yeah, totally, I understand.
- [33:45]
Alon Ben Joseph
Well said, Rob. And maybe to circle back to you, Thibault, I love the fact that you're taking a notch up on the philosophical scale for your brand and I say this respectfully. I think it's smart. You're applying an Audemars piguetric, Richard Mille style of operation. What do I mean by that? Let's call it the Balottage economics or Balotage sales you curate who is eligible to wear an Alto watch? Now this sounds extremely arrogant and it might be perceived like that, but as an entrepreneur and a marketeer, me, myself, I understand why these two. And if you concur your brand, do this because in the end they're doing the current owners of those mechanical pieces of art and all future wearers a favor because not only does it help in the allure to become a member of that club, or as MBNF calls it, the tribe, it protects the brand heritage. And now you can rebuttal to that and maybe in your answer you can also add your vision for the future of Alto. Is this a passion project or are you seeing this as a startup that will have an exit in seven to 10 years?
- [35:15]
Thibaut Guitar
I think it's. No, no, it's a real strong project with real ambition. We want to build a maison, like properly. We want to grow step by step. But this is, this is the. Yeah, this is a passion project, of course, because there is behind that a lot of passion, a lot of obsession. But it's a strong project. It's a strong project with ambition and, and yeah, and steps and growth. And yeah, coming back to the fact that you mentioned that we have this luxury of choosing the clients. We don't choose the clients, they come to us and we just need to have a connection with them because we know that the first 25 and this year more than like 30, 40 clients that we're going to have are all the first ambassadors. And they are the first. They have to understand very well who we are and, and they have to after that be ambassadors and speak about what they have on the wrist to the people they know, etc. So this is very important for us as we are super small and as we do not have the, the, the, the, the capacity to be strong as Bulgari or as Hublot or any big, big, big, major brand, to communicate and to, and to speak to a lot of audience. We speak to a very few amount of people. So. And this is not a choice. This is just like the fact we cannot produce more than what we do. We will produce a bit more every year, but this is not going to be like from 25 pieces to 600,000 pieces, like Cartier is doing, for example. So, yeah, we just try to grow like normally, but with ambition to do a strong brand because we think we have, we're pretty sure we have the basis of a strong brand. And so, yeah, so we will see what the future brings. But yeah, the first clients are very, very important, Very, very important because they're the first ambassadors.
- [37:16]
Alon Ben Joseph
And I'm going to provoke a bit. What happens if your friends, your old friends in Le Brassieux and for those listeners that don't know what I'm referring to, I'm talking about the place where Audemars Piguet is headquartered, call you and they want to take a stake in your company. If they haven't yet, what will you do?
- [37:36]
Thibaut Guitar
I think it's, it is too soon. I mean, the brand is only six months of existence. It's six or seven years of work in the shadow, but the brand is only six months. We launched end of April 20. Yeah, end of April 24. And I'm already copied in. If you go on Reddit and if you go on Aliexpress, I already have copies, what they say Homage to Alto. So it's crazy, like the speed of this world. But I don't think it's time to think about that. So I don't want to imagine this kind of conversation. I want, I want to stay strong. I want to stay in my position. I wanna, I don't want to sell Anything, because it's super soon and. And even in the future, I'm so. No, I don't. I'm not into those discussions now, so. And I don't want to be.
- [38:31]
Alon Ben Joseph
I respect that. Thank you for answering it. Interesting topic you raised. The homage pieces. How do you deal with that? Owning the ip. Do you attack them or do you let them be?
- [38:42]
Thibaut Guitar
Oh, you mean the AliExpress copycats. I don't know if I can. If you can say AliExpress, by the way, on podcast or. I don't want to be.
- [38:49]
Alon Ben Joseph
This is the real time show. You can say whatever you want.
- [38:52]
Thibaut Guitar
Yeah, well, it's interesting because at the first time, and it's funny, it's one of the 25 first clients they sent me. Oh, look, you're copied already. I mean, you should see it as a good sign. I remember the WhatsApp. It was in September or October, and I was like, oh, man, that's crazy. So I see the products and the client said to me, you should buy one and see how it's made, etc. I said, yeah, yeah, but at the same time, I don't want to make this business work in the shadow, etc. But yeah, I need to order one I haven't done yet. But firstly, you say, okay, it's crazy. Six, seven years of work copied in like one second. You're saying, like, the world is going crazy. But then you say, okay, you're aligned in the website with fake homage to Santos Dumont, to Patek Philippe, to Richard Mille, and you're like, okay, so I'm existing at least. I mean, I'm in the game now. So that's a good sign for me. And you cannot do anything for that. You can have the best lawyers in the world if you shut down one, one company one day, the second day, two other companies open. So, no, no, you cannot fight against that. You just. You just have to see that living. And. But that's my point of view, and that's what I'm. That's the behavior I'm. I'm taking regarding those. Those copycats. Because, yeah, I don't think we can do. We can do anything.
- [40:27]
Rob Nudds
Do you think in an odd way, it adds an almost legitimacy to the legitimate brand? You've been seen, you're striking enough to be copied. And when people research Alto, they're likely to find out that someone has copied you. Do you think that adds gravitas to the original brand in a strange way, in the mind of consumers?
- [40:49]
Thibaut Guitar
I don't think if it Brings credibility. You know, time will tell. It brings that. At least we exist. We are, we are not into the complex of the beginner arriving in the market with no legitimacy, no credibility, et cetera. I mean, I think that all the work I've done, I am totally legitimate to be where I am now. It's just, no, no, it doesn't bring more. It's just funny and it's. No, no, I don't think it bring, it brings more. And the credibility is something that you have like months by month, year by year, and, and with the product that you do.
- [41:30]
Rob Nudds
Well, that's interesting because you have that credibility personally and professionally. And anybody that knows you, I'm sure, would have a very high opinion of the watches that you put out. But when most people encounter Alto for the first time, they encounter the watch before they encounter you. They don't know anything about the people behind it until they start digging into the brand or they look around the surrounding universe and assess the context there. So, I mean, in the absence of ambassadors as well, apart from your customs, of course, which I agree are the best ambassadors, the watch is the ambassador, and the watch has to instantly communicate your credibility through it. When people see it, do you find that that is what's happening? Or do you find that people find the watch, do their research and then when they understand the story and the team behind it and the vast experience that's gone into the watch, then they start to appreciate the product more? Or do you think that people would buy the products in isolation of the story?
- [42:27]
Thibaut Guitar
I can tell about only the experience I have this year and the six last months. Mostly like 80%, like 20 out of the 25, let's say more or less. It's like a good care for, for the, for the watch, for the product. Because these are people I have, I've never, I've never seen in my life. In Australia, in Saudi Arabia, in. In the us, in Greece that didn't do any, any research work and they just saw Pum on a, on an article, not even on Instagram, but on an article of a colleague of you guys, another journalist. They, they saw it and they say, oh, I want it. And that was just a, you know, a kudka for, for the product because it appeal, it attracts them, gives them emotion, something different, etc. And then they, they, they, they tried to dig, dig more into the, into the brand. But no, no, I would say that now it's more, it's more about a product, a product attraction, talking about the.
- [43:32]
Alon Ben Joseph
Product being a Hero and the benefit of you being a brand new watch company, how have you incorporated the concept of CPO certified pre owned? What are you going to do with the initial buyers of a brand new Alto watch and that want to either upgrade, move on or for whatever reason are not going to keep it in their collection.
- [43:58]
Thibaut Guitar
CPU is not something we, we haven't think about yet. Honestly. Honestly I don't have, I don't have any idea about how to handle this thing, this, this topic yet. I think that as I told you before, I know now the, the. The 25 client personally I have connections with, with them. I'm not saying to, to all of them do not sell those watches etc, they do whatever they want to do. But I'm pretty sure that the level of emotion is, is. Is strong on the wrist so that they don't want to, they don't want to, they don't want to sell the watch soon. So I hope I will not have to deal with the CPO too soon. I will have to in probably one, two, three years but now I don't think I will have. So sorry about that but this is not a question I can answer.
- [44:59]
Alon Ben Joseph
No, you don't need to apologize because I was curious. You see more and more hotelagerie brands incorporate the fact that they want the their own models that and especially those that are not being produced anymore to come back home, be serviced and then retailed again by the brand. So in that context I asked you that question.
- [45:21]
Thibaut Guitar
What do you guys think about the watch market today and the coming brands like us, like Toledeno, Chan, like, like Bernard, like what do you think about this arrival of new brands and the future of those brands? What are, what do you think?
- [45:41]
Rob Nudds
Guys, I'm thrilled to see the arrival of this cavalcade of shaped watches. I think it's superb. I think what it speaks to, as Scarlett mentioned the other day, was a serious dearth of interesting case shapes in the industry. Like it's fulfilled a need. Now the question is what's the potential for that need? Is it just the fact that we needed the itch to be scratched by one or two or three or maybe 10 or 15 different watches that were like nothing else on the market whatsoever just so that we, we could actually have the option to buy them? Will the consumers buy them? That's a different question. Obviously at the level you're at and the level Berner runs at, the answer seems to be yes. Toledano and Chan seems to be doing a good job of becoming the IT brand in that price sphere for shaped watches in a more brutalist style. But the question is the potential of it. You know, I don't think the fact that we're all so excited about the fact we have these new options now means that, oh, what the industry really wants is to move away from round watches and to embrace octagonal or hexagonal or organically formed watches. I don't think that's the case at all. I think there's a very small market for it. And what's particularly satisfying about the current era that we're living through is the brands that have walked into that gap have been exceptional. Like without, without exception, you, Toled Island Chan Burner on are superb brands like you fly the flag for non standard shaped watches perfectly. And I, I just question if the market needs many more brands of that nature when the brands that we have now that have emerged are doing such a good job of it. So I think you guys are in the right place at the right time. I think that your efforts over the last several years have come to fruition at a perfect moment where it's not just you offering something new, you're also supported by the environment created by these other brands that have come in at the same time. So there's a context. You have like you have a family of unrelated brands which accidentally help each other to be understood by consumers. So I think it's brilliant. I think you're going to do great in, as Alon says, seven years up, seven years down. I think the next seven years you're all set and then thereafter we'll see how the industry turns.
- [48:02]
Alon Ben Joseph
Great question, Thibault. I love it. I'm not objective. Not only do I count Sylvan to be my dear friend and I knew him before he started his own watch and I bought one when he showed me the first ever prototype with a paper dial. So I recently received my Berner home watch. Phil is a friend and became a friend before he started Toledano in Chan. So I have one of his first batch as well. Fabrico Bunamasa has to have a mention here as well because when the Octo Finissimo came out and I like the most basic ones, a full titanium, dull titanium, monochromatic gray. Have one of those. So I'm not the right person to ask, but if we take a step back, creativity is always good. Art is always good. I totally concur with you that our art connects and supersedes any language and it's the grease of society. So in that sense, yes, thank you. Well, it's interesting that you mentioned Berneron and Toledan Chan. I do see a big difference in both. And then linking it to what you do with alto on two levels. Toledan Chan is, well, Phil is an artist. He's not so much per se, an entrepreneur. He's a free spirit, likes to be creative, he likes to be free. He said, hey, I love these integrated 70s Midas touch styled watches. I have this creativity in me. I'm going to make one. He met Alfred Chan by coincidence, digitally. They only met physically for the first time when we met them during Geneva watch days, summer 2024 and they did. They said, fuck it, we're going to do one project 175 watches. They truly did not believe they would sell out within few days this initial batch. But it's a different price point, it's a different approach. Unlike Sylvain Berneron, you and him have a long term vision. You put your money where your mouths are. You put everything on everything. You took a big risk. Sylvan literally liquidated everything, including his private watch collection, poured his heart and soul into it and took a big risk because he didn't know where it went. That being said, that gives me as a collector confidence to buy your watch because I know you're not a one day fly. You're not going to be disappeared by tomorrow. And and not saying that Toladan and Chan are going to be gone, but it could be because they never promised to build a watch company with full fledged employees and srv. So after sales service. But do we need to? Probably not because they use the Sarita base. So I can go to any watchmaker. So these are all intricate things that I take into consideration. But I'm very, very happy that you came on the show because this whole story was not clear to me. So thank you, Thibault. We are looking forward to meeting you in person during the week of watches and wonders in Geneva. And Rob, nobody does the outro but better than you. So the mic is yours.
- [51:31]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, thanks Thibaut. That was really interesting getting an insight into Alto. I've been lucky enough to have the watch on my wrist earlier on in the year and I thought that it was really beautiful to wear and understanding more about you and the brand behind it is a real pleasure. So hopefully our audience feels the same. And if anyone has any questions for Tipo or anyone at the brand then please do get in touch. You can do so via Instagram. You can find me there at R N u D D S Alon at a l o n b e n J o s e p h David at D a v a u c h e r and Scarlet at S c a r l I n t h e s h I r e Catchy or what? You can get in touch with the rest of us via email, either Rob Alon or David herealtime show, or via the contact form on the official website www.therealtime.show. we'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.