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- [00:06]
Aloman Joseph
Hi and hello Watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood jeweler, Aloman Joseph and our resident provocateur, David Vaulcher. We are proud to welcome back to the virtual studio Claude Greisler, one of the owners of Arminstrom for the long awaited part two. Welcome, Claude.
- [00:31]
Claude Greisler
Thank you, thank you for having me.
- [00:33]
Aloman Joseph
Well, the honor and pleasure is not only David's and mine, but definitely our listeners. We got tremendous feedback on the first interview we did with you. And like me, everybody's in big anticipation for this episode because we're going to nickname this the masterclass of Resonance and Haute Haute Lingerie.
- [00:58]
Claude Greisler
That sounds perfect.
- [01:00]
Aloman Joseph
So Claude, are you ready to educate us, to school us to bring a lot of wisdom?
- [01:07]
Claude Greisler
I hope so. I'm ready.
- [01:09]
Aloman Joseph
Okay. I as a young kid was blown away during physics class in school about the phenomenon of resonance. Now that subdued around the end of the 80s, beginning of the 90s, I discovered the FP Jean resonance piece. And that literally got stuck in my mind that that watch made it to my wish list and then Armin Strom made it to my wish list with your resonance piece. Because as far as I know, you are the only two that manufacture resonance pieces. And you guys seem to be the king of resonance pieces. Because if I count it correctly, in current collection you have five models, three models under the resonance chapter and two under the masterpieces chapter. Now I want to go down to the basics because on your website you give an intro what it is, but I find that rather technical still. So for our dear listeners that don't know what we're talking about, can you please explain from A to Z and we'll shut up, sit back and enjoy our coffee while we're listening to you.
- [02:36]
Claude Greisler
Resonance is actually. It's fun what you mentioned before, because when I was in the watchmaker school, my dream watch was the FBJORN Resonance. I remember when I was in Basel, I think I stopped by every half an hour to see if the two second hands are still synchronized when the watch was showcased. So yeah, it was from. Even for me it was a very impressive timepiece. And then so let maybe just as an intro, I will give you my background on the resonance. So I got trained as a watchmaker in the watchmaker School of Solothurn and graduated in watch restoration. And this is where I got the chance to study a double pendulum clutch from Anti Chamvier in the Museum of La Chaux de in the International Museum Watch Museum. And that's the. That's my. That's the first time I got really into this topic of resonance when I, when I disassembled and reassembled the double pendulum clock. I knew a guy close to where I live, I live in the Bernese Alps in Lenk. And there was Beard Haldimand, famous independent watchmaker who produced double pendulum clocks beating in resonance at that time. And so I, I went to see Haldimand and Haldimand explained me exactly how resonance works because the, all the material which was written on resonance was very, very, a few articles, I mean that was 2001. So the Internet was not giving us as much information as we have now, especially on watch. On watch knowledge that was very, very basic knowledge which was on the, on the web available. So everything had to go through books. So I studied the books of, of George Daniels, of Abraham Louis Breguet, of all kinds of theory books. And everybody mentioned resonance, but never nobody really explained it properly. And so Beard Haldeman shared his discoveries, which he had with a double pendulum clock. And this is actually what inspired me later is this is what Beat Haldiban and also Auntie Genvie discovered when they produced their double pendulum clock, was that they shared a suspension for the pendulums. And as soon as they shared the suspension of the pendulum, the pendulum started to synchronize. That's the inspiration. So young student from the watchmaker school, graduated in watch restoration, had the chance to disassemble a double pendulum clock, went to see Haldimand, who reproduced the double pendulum clocks, got a first introduction into the mechanical approach of understanding resonance. And then later on in Armin Strom, I was able to maybe create the first ever proper built resonance wristwatch. If I can say like this, presumably.
- [06:22]
David Vaulcher
In the case of a wristwatch, the pendulums are the balance wheels, is that correct?
- [06:27]
Claude Greisler
Exactly, yeah. What history has had learned us is that first of all there was a benefit of having two pendulums be synchronized. Now what I learned is that to be able to share or to create the synchronization of two independent frequencies, and if I talk frequencies, that could either be a pendulum which swings, or could be a balance wheel which is rotating. So to synchronize two frequencies we need a third element that they can start to share micro vibrations in between them. That's what Antichonvier described as he shared the suspension of the two pendulum and the suspension bridge became the third element which brings the two pendulums in sync. Same which got actually described by Christian Huygens. Christian Huygens discovered the phenomenon of resonance because he had the two pendulum clock sitting on a wooden bench and on a wooden beam. And they also that the beam served as third element which was able to transmit the vibrations from one movement to the other movement. And what we have to understand, and I think that's the key element in resonance, which got never really described because in is that we need a transmission, something which transmits, which allows the two frequencies to share their vibrations. In physics it's also known as the shared mode of motion. That means you have two independent frequencies. And thanks to a third frequency, the two frequencies, frequency one and frequency two can become, can synchronize. And I don't know if that's clear, but it's key in resonance that the two frequencies will never ever synchronize naturally. Because that just if they synchronize naturally, that would just be that somehow they reach the same frequency for a short period of time by chance. It's like a trick that they somehow reach and they somehow beat. And they give you this impression that they will be synchronized. But actually they are not. There's not a built for purpose synchronization in between frequencies. And the goal of resonance watches is that we create an environment, a stable environment, where the two frequencies can become 1, 2, then avoid all the small parasite impacts which we have in the movement. So to have the watch more consistent, thanks to the synchronization of the two frequencies. And it's not the synchronization which makes the movements more precise, that's very important. The resonance environment or the resonance synchronization is just making the frequency more consistent. The frequency itself, the precision of each movement depends on how accurate they are set. That means you can go as close as you can by a well trained watchmaker, could bring one balance read to almost zero seconds a day. Or let's say something between, in all different position hanging flat positions, something in between zero and plus four seconds. Then he has another balance wheel which will be set in zero plus four seconds. If we thanks to a transmitter can bring the two frequencies to become one stable frequency, the timekeeping becomes way more consistent. Because the transmission of the power which get delivered by the mainspring through the going gear train is not a consistent energy. The energy which goes from the mainspring barrel and then the going gear train to the escapement is not a consistent energy. So the balance wheel itself has always either more or less energy. That's something which is on every single watch. If you have two mechanisms, two balance wheel, two going gear trains, two escape and two Balance wheels, your time, and you start to synchronize them, the average speed, the time consistency becomes way more accurate than if a watch would just work with one single balance wheel or one single pendant.
- [12:22]
David Vaulcher
Just to recap for myself and for our listeners, essentially you have two balance wheels connected by a bridge mechanism. And that improves chronometry, not by making the watch necessarily more precise, that is to say, closer to the real time, but it keeps the deviation constant. So if you're starting at plus two seconds, it will stay closer to plus two seconds over time. Is that, is that correct?
- [12:48]
Claude Greisler
Exactly.
- [12:49]
David Vaulcher
Perfect. So, you know, in, in watches, we love discussing terminology, and I know there's a discussion that goes on occasionally about a tourbillon and whether or not that is a complication. So what you've described sounds pretty complicated, but would you consider it a complication?
- [13:05]
Claude Greisler
Yeah, I would consider so for me, complications. There are two fields of complications. The first is everything which belongs. First of all, there's one field which I say there's everything which comes to indicators. That means everything which is more than hour, minute, second date is considered as a complication. That means a big date, the moon phase, the retrograde date, perpetual calendar, a chronograph. All the complications which do indicate additional information are supposed to be or are called a complication. On the other hand, we have a tourbillon, a constant force mechanism, a resonance mechanism, which makes the standard movement. And if I talk about standard movement, that means a barrel with a mainspring, going gear, train, escapement, balance wheel, hairspring. Everything which is better performing thanks to additional mechanisms is also called a complication. This is how I got trained in watch restoration. This is my understanding of complications is that we have these two fields which belongs to chronometry, to make the time more accurate. And the other complication is everything which is additional functions, additional indications.
- [14:53]
Aloman Joseph
Claude, is this the ultimate regulation tool for chronometry? So for precision of timekeepers, a resonance complication.
- [15:05]
Claude Greisler
It is the mechanism which guarantees the most consistent timekeeping. The question is if you have the most, I would say like this. So if you have take the most precise movement you find in the world, you really take this, the second best movement in the world. And we, thanks to our resonance mechanism, bring them to beat in sync, the timekeeping would be more consistent and it would even be more precise thanks to the consistent environment we create. But it's just if you have a bad movement and you have another bad movement and you bring them in sync, the benefit, there will be a benefit. But it will not make them super accurate. The balance wheel and the hairspring. That's the watchmaker who sets the balance wheel and the hairspring. He's adjusting the regulation screws the end, he's bending the hairspring. He's making sure that the watch runs as perfect as he can set. This is what he does in our resonance watch. He sets up the first movement as precise as he can. He sets up the second movement and as precise as he can. And then we synchronize the two frequencies to make sure that they keep a very stable timekeeping.
- [16:40]
Aloman Joseph
So today, besides Armin Storm, I believe the FP Jean is still in production. So the chronometre resonance haldimand. I forgot about him. But I believe he also made wristwatches.
- [16:58]
Claude Greisler
Yes, he has a. Haldimand has a very interesting double tourbillon. Which also reference to resonance. To the phenomenon of resonance.
- [17:10]
Aloman Joseph
Because I think he has like they're rotating at 180 degrees mirror to each other. Then they wrote it, I believe. Right, The Halimans.
- [17:20]
Claude Greisler
Exactly.
- [17:21]
Aloman Joseph
Yeah. And is there anybody else that today produces wristwatches with a resonance complication?
- [17:28]
Claude Greisler
As far as I know is Vianne Halter also discovered the phenomenon of resonance. And he also have a resonance wristwatch. I saw a prototype of it last year during New York watch time. An unfinished piece, but a piece who is also, I think that he named it Resonance Watch. And it's a setup of two balance wheels which also do synchronize each other.
- [18:08]
Aloman Joseph
And that's it, isn't it?
- [18:10]
Claude Greisler
That's it.
- [18:11]
Aloman Joseph
So I guess that the lack of knowledge makes it underappreciated. And doesn't explain the price tags. Could we. Because for tourbillons people accept high ticket prices on watches. But residents, they might not know. I think that you guys start around 50,000 Swiss francs ex VAT for your pure resonance. I think that's a very, very reasonable price. Can you explain why these prices are at the point they are. Why is it so complex to make?
- [18:51]
Claude Greisler
It's not. I would not say it's. The development was extremely time taking of resonance. We had to. Maybe we were a little bit young. We're still young, but we were as a young company, you know, setting up the manufactory. Starting to create your own watches. And then we had this motivation of. I always had this idea of sharing a suspension between two balance, two hairsprings. And we did several researches. We talked, you know, in Arminstrom in 2000, when we started to discover the phenomenon was 2013 we launched a watch in 2016, but we did the first prototypes in 2013, so three years earlier than the official launch in 2016. And young company, a lot of very motivated watchmakers work in Arminstrom. We always have lunch together and we always talk about watches, about innovation, about movement. How could we do things better? And so I throw this idea of, you know, I think it was. We had an article or something about Z and the resonance. And then I said, ah, but it would be very cool to have this. You know, they have this flexible suspension mechanism, which I discovered because I wrote an article about aerospace technology and they had this article about flexible suspension. And I said, why should we not, you know, take benefit of the new technology to improve existing watchmaker complications? And then this is how it started. And we said, ah, we took a piece of paper and we started to throw the first ideas. And then we had something which to everybody seems to be a way how they could synchronize. And so we took two movements. We took a basic, like square brass plate, drilled some holes for the rubies, fixed two, two, two barrels, two gear trains, two escapements, two balance wheels. And we started to create wires. We could literally say wires at the beginning which connected the two hairsprings. And then, you know, it was trial and error. It was. We saw that there is something that they start to. To influence each other. But we also realize that we have to master this transmission of micro vibration because there's several issues to consider when you create such a connection between them. And it took us, I think, 28 or close to 30 prototypes to have the one which is the closest to what we have today. And yeah, there was no research was done in this, in this direction. This was maybe a bit. That was maybe the hardest part when it comes to resonance, to understand what it happened. Because, you know, if you do a tourbillon, you open up. I don't know how many tourbillon books I have in my library. If you want to have an inspiration, you just go back in time and you see what they tried to do. And then you, you take it and you do it a little bit better. But in resonance, we had to be, as a young company to be able to break rules, which we got trained to create this synchronization. So a lot of standard theories which we learned, we had first to be ready to break them, to say, okay, this is not. Is it really necessary to have it set up the way how it should be set up? Or can we maybe do it in a different way to open the box and to be a little bit more innovative in movement thinking and in developing a new movement. And yeah, once. Once you have it and then price wise is, you know, it's. It's. It's a wire between two hairsprings. It's. The development was really expensive, but it's so good performing, we. We do not have to. To modify it. Once it's on place, it does the job. And so assembling, disassembling, now it's. The resonance is almost. It's such an important piece for Arminstrom that it's industrialized. It does its job, it synchronizes fast. So it's actually easy to put in. Once you know how to do it, it's easy to put in place. It's not something which is putting us in trouble by setting the resonance crunch spring in between the two hairsprings. And this is the way it should go. You know, that's when the engineer does a perfect job. It's the way how it should be. You take it, you put it into the watch and it runs.
- [24:21]
Aloman Joseph
So the wire you're talking about, you're very modest and it seems you bring it so relaxed and cool as if it's. Ah. I just snapped it and came up with the idea. Although you had many prototypes, but you guys did not just make a resonance piece or looked at history books. Although there wasn't much made until you guys start rocking that wire you're talking about. I call it the tuning fork. I don't know what the official name is within Armin Strom. That's patented by you guys, isn't it?
- [24:54]
Claude Greisler
It is. It's the. We have a very large patent because synchronization between two balance wheels was never studied before or maybe also never achieved properly achieved in between two balance wheels. This is why it was a very open field to put a patent down.
- [25:21]
Aloman Joseph
Again, modest. So it is groundbreaking. You guys made watchmaking history. To all the. Dear listeners, I urge you to watch some videos. If you can't find one quickly. Armin Strom, together with my dear friend Jeremy Oster and horror Mario Bro made an amazing collab. Horror Mario is known for great macro photography. He made spectacular videos. I can watch these Armin Strom resonance pieces in action for hours. It brings tranquility, it brings joy. It's almost hypnotic. So I'm not objective, but I urge you, do yourself a favor and just look at it and listen to it. Because the resonance is literally music to my ears. Claude. But I'll shut up again. Question If I count correctly, you made four calibers. One is featured in the Pure resonance. You created the mirror Force resonance. You have a minute repeater resonance, talking about Grail watches, and then you have the dual time resonance. Can you walk us through the evolution of all these calibers?
- [26:42]
Claude Greisler
First of all, thank you for your compliment regarding the animation because the first watch I built, the first, like, prototype we had was the balance wheels were on the backside, because most of the time the balance wheels are on the backside. Once we saw how this synchronization is like, nice to see to really, you know, when you. Once you see. We call it the resonance clutch spring and we see the resonance clutch spring moving back and forth. It's just such a. A nice and cool animation that I said, you know, it doesn't matter if the watch comes out now or in nine months. But I told Serge, my business partner, said we have to bring it to the dial side because that's, you know, that's. People will understand that resonance is not only a phenomenon which people talk about that we will. Everybody will understand that Armstrong is mastering resonance because you can see it. It's visually displayed on the dial side. And it's not a trick which happens somewhere in the movement. So thank you for this, for this compliment because I do wear the first edition of the Myriad Force Resonance today. And I'm, I'm still. I can, I think every day. I do enjoy the, this, this synchronized frequency between the two. The two balance weeks. That's a very, very cool thing. Yeah. Merit Force resonance actually was the first. As I mentioned, mine is the first edition launched in 2016 during Salon QP in London. I do remember this event quite well because, you know, I was so proud to have a resonance, the proper build Resonance watch. You know, as a young engineer, as a young watchmaker, you think about now the world is waiting for, you know, everybody will hug me and say, oh, you're the great guys. Now you compete against Abraham Louis Breguet. And because you did it. No, it was a bit the opposite at the beginning. It was like, this is a bit maybe an attitude of watchmakers. Everybody was doubting, like, how can it happen? How can it. It's not possible because the hairspring is moving. The start at the end of the hairspring is built in a flexible environment. Nobody did that before. How can you do such a mechanical connection in between two balance wheels? So was not the easiest launch we ever had. By far not the easiest because it was. We had very. Had to convince and learn how to Explain people how it works. Demirit force resonance. Our very first watch built in 2016, what got relaunched two years ago with a smaller case. It's now it's a 43 millimeter case. Slightly similar. The movement got a big upgrade. Great. When it comes to bridges and design, the mechanism itself is still the same. So we do use on all our resonance watches the same mechanism, the same resonance clutch spring. What makes a difference is the mirrored force resonance has a twin second flyback mechanism. The twin second flyback mechanism allows you to have a visual proof of how accurate the two movements stay in resonance. You have one movement driving the hour and minute hand clockwise. The small second hand, which is a three leg hand clockwise. But then the second movement, which is just supposed to make the first movement more precise, has a counterclockwise, a second hand who does turn counterclockwise. And it's thanks to a pusher. You can reset the two second hands. One of them will turn clockwise, the other one will turn counterclockwise in the mirrored in a mirrored way. That's a bit the idea and the philosophy of the of the mirrored force resonance. And then you have a visual proof of how accurate they stay in sync. If they to balance field are not in sync, you will start to have a gap in between the two second indications. Then we have the pure resonance. The pure resonance just for now is discontinued because there is a new resonance watch which will be launched this year in August, end of August, in about and a half months during Geneva watches days. Pure Resonance was just as the name says, it's purely about resonance. So there is hour, minute display, a small second hand and the second movement which is built in the watch is just to make the first movement more consistent. So it's the purest way of having a resonance watch. One time display and the rest of the featherman of resonance. The two balance wheels, the synchronization visible on the dial side. Pure resonance. And then we have masterpieces. We have masterpiece one which is called the dual Time. The Dual Time is an O shaped watch which is quite a piece. It's a heavy big piece. It's. Each movement is driven by a double barrel movement. So that means we have four barrels, 10 days of power reserve. We have two. Like a dual time, we have two. Each movement is driving hour and minute. Each movement has a day and night indicator to use it also to give it a purpose of gmt. Each movement has a power reserve indication and the resonance is built at 12 o'clock instead of like at the pure and the mirrored force resonance. We have the resonance sitting at 9:00. That was our first masterpiece. And then we have the second one. Is one of my favorite or it is my favorite watch is the mirrored. Is the resonance minute repeater resonance. The minute repeater resonance is the first ever built minute repeat based on resonance. So we know from there's like minute repeaters built on standard movement. There are minute repeats built on tourbill movements. And the big challenge about the minute repeater is because there are so many parts involved and to make space for your time movement, which drives our minute hand. And then having the whole mechanism for the minute repeat is already a challenge. To have a tourbillon built in the same movement, you know, you're struggling with place. I did that when I was working for Christophe Claret. That's, you know, there is, that's a challenge to have a barrel, a gear train, a tourbillon plus the minute repeater. Our minute repeater has two barrels, two going gear trains, two escapements, two balance wheels. The resonance mechanism plus the minute repeater. And it's a, for me, it's a very meaningful watch because resonance has actually in physics two meanings. One is the synchronization and the other meaning is the transmission of sound. And to have a chiming minute repeat to build above the resonance clutch spring without influencing the resonance. So even if you have vibrations coming from the gongs, that doesn't affect your resonance. It's quite a very stunning piece.
- [35:25]
David Vaulcher
What you've just described is some very high caliber watchmaking. And I guess what I want to do is just switch gears a little bit to some of the commercial side because Alan and I were speaking before we started recording. He was just describing how retail conditions have changed and I suppose trying to think how I want to phrase this question. But he and I understand to an extent what you're describing and can appreciate it because we've been able to watch this for a long, long time. But I think what you've described is a very different thing from the bling and the hype of what we're just coming out of. And even when you described how the project was born, it was a technical question, you know, like, can we do it? Okay, you know, let's do it. And usually these things start from a customer demand and you work backwards. So really what I'd like to understand is how is it that you. Who is your clientele roughly to the extent you can describe it? Are they new entrants into watches? Have they been into watches for a while? And how if they're new, how do you go about educating them about such a complicated topic?
- [36:38]
Claude Greisler
It's a bit a mix. We have, of course, I would take the biggest customer base we have are people who are into watches, people who do love different kind of mechanisms, who appreciate transparent mechanic. All our movements, all our watches do showcase the movement. The movement is always visible from the front and from the backside. When we create a watch, the watch is built to be showcased. It's not that we take an existing movement and we try to showcase the mechanic when we start to build a watch, it's the watch is built to be showcased. This is what I mentioned before. I mean, as soon as we saw the mechanism, how it's synchronizing, how cool the animation is between the two balance wheels, we said it has to be built on the dial side because that's the first thing you want to see. And you don't want to have elements like a resonance mechanism built behind a dialogue. So in Arminstrom, everything is visible. So we have, of course, the biggest customer base is people who are into watches, people who appreciate mechanical watchmaking, and people who are looking for different innovation when it comes to watch movements. On the other hand, we have people that just love the way how it looks without maybe probably understanding of what happens into the watch. Honestly, they just love the way how the two balance will synchronize and then see it's something unique, it's something like very, very cool to see. And they love the design, which is a bit like we have this very contemporary watchmaking. It's not something Armstrong has its own identity. And when we create the watch, we never take reference to an existing watch. We always try to, you know, create something new, but something which is long living. And our design language is maybe not the most crazy you find out in the market, but it's a very long design living approach which we have. So people who love design, we have a very small customer base who are really into resonance and doctors, people who work in physics, and they approach us and they say, that will be my first ever expensive watch. But resonance is so meaningful to me that as soon as I saw an article about that there's somebody building a resonance watch, I had to get it. So it's a wide range of people buying, buying a resonance watch.
- [39:42]
Aloman Joseph
So you said that you launched it during a QP salon in London and you said, oh, now people will run to us. But you basically created it because you wanted it. You didn't know if there was demand for it.
- [39:58]
Claude Greisler
Did you 2016 independent brands. We had a different life than what we have today. We got recognized by the collectors. You know, there is, there's more recognition when it comes to independent watchmaking. What independent watchmakers do in 2024, 23, a big, big that has really, really moved. In 2016, it was already like, okay, who are you? Army Strom? Never heard about the brand. What are you doing independent watchmaking? You're just doing like 250 movements a year. And then you start to explain them. Resonance. The first question they ask is why Patek Philippe didn't build resonance or why Rolex is not building resonance. And you said, well, because they didn't achieve, because they didn't invest it hard enough to find a solution to an old problem in watchmaking. And then, you know, that was a bit, maybe a more difficult time to convince people to invest in cool, to appreciate modern watchmaking.
- [41:11]
Aloman Joseph
So why didn't Patek create a resonance piece up until today?
- [41:15]
Claude Greisler
Honestly, I think it's because it's extremely difficult to master. And as I mentioned, there's every complicated perpetual calendars, chronographs, tourbillons, all the complications. They were somehow they were built before. And most of the time those things, they are just getting better over time because there's more engineering involved. Let's say a moon phase was maybe precise, was not that precise at the beginning. I mean, the very first moon phases, they simply built precise. I don't know what kind of precision they had, but they were not that precise. Today you have Andrea Str, who is building a moon phase which is, I don't know, 200 million years. And then you have to adjust it for a day. So the moon phase became better, the chronographs became better, the tourbillons became better, but resonance was never got. Never really mastered. You take a marine chronometer escapement, the detent escapement, like it involved over time. Because several engineers were working on that kind of topic. But that was a non. That was an unsolved problem in watchmaking, which a lot of big watchmakers failed. Why Abraham Louis Breguet invested his time, created pocket watches which were dedicated to resonance. Did researches, even described all his researches, which he did on resonance because he saw that there is a benefit, but he couldn't master it. And this is what makes for me, this is why resonance is so cool. Because all the big watchmakers somehow believed or they saw that there's a benefit in synchronization, but they couldn't master it. Maybe thanks to technology thanks to, I don't know, they didn't have the right tools, the right machines, the right, I don't know, the right person. Maybe if I would be born 100 years ago, maybe I would have already solved the problem. I think it's also a one that's. I guess it's. We never know. But I think that's. For me it's the biggest step in my watchmaker career is to master something which was. Everybody was like trying to master it, but they failed. And now the army Storm is the first company who does master resonance. And then we don't know, maybe in 10, 20 years there will be a young watchmaker who has even a better performing inspiration to resonance. But the benefit is huge. I mean, and honestly we are just at the beginning of resonance now. We see that we master resonance. We have got a lot of experience over the last eight years. I would say now the resonance is somehow. It's. I could say it's, it's. It's really on a, on a, on a top, top level when it comes to synchronization, when it comes to make the timekeeping more consistent, we have extremely good results, which I'm very proud of. And now we have these two movements sitting in one watch and we just indicate our minute second. But imagine yourself chronographs, they are struggling with energy perpetual calendars. There's always a lot of complications, do have problems because they don't have enough energy to run the whole mechanism. And for me, resonance, it's something which we master. But everything which is built behind has so much advantages that I think we are at the very, very beginning of resonance. I think there's way, way more coming. We have a lot of ideas of how resonance could be even more useful in the watch than just making our minute and second more precise.
- [45:39]
Aloman Joseph
You spoke about other brands, simply can't master it. So I imagine you have a lot of brands knocking on your door that they want to buy your calibers. Two, does Armin Strom sell the manufacture calibers, any of them to other watch brands?
- [45:54]
Claude Greisler
No, we have a big. So we are a fully integrated manufactory. We do develop and design our own movements. We produce all the movement parts in house. We have quite a big CNC machine facility. We provide spare parts for utter companies like friends ordering for their calibers spare parts from Armin Strong because they are not able to produce them in house. That's a service which we offer. But we do not sell our developments and we do not sell our calibers because now for now, today, I think waiting time on the myriad force resonance is something between 12 and 15 months. So there's just no room to give movements to other companies. There's so much demand in resonance and we are still, you know, still a small company arm. It's show. We are 35 now, slowly, slowly building up the volume for our needs. And I think me and Serge, we never had the idea or the vision of supplying movements because if there is room for additional volume, I think we're going to create another watch because we have more ideas for new watches which we would like to launch. Then we have capacity in house. So as soon as capacity goes up, you will be surprised by what Armin Strong will offering next.
- [47:39]
Aloman Joseph
So since you don't sell any calibers, no licensing of technology, just spare parts, this begs the impertinent question. I'm quite sure many try to buy all of Arminstrom. Why haven't you sold the company yet?
- [47:57]
Claude Greisler
Serge and you, you know, Serge and I, we know each other since childhood and I graduated in watchmaking. Serge graduated in marketing and sales. Serge is the earliest watch collector I know, but that was not the earliest. The first watch collector I know or I knew in my life was Serge collecting swatch plastic watches. I think everybody had like one watch and Serge was the first guy when he was like 14, 13 or 14 years, like buying with his pocket money swatch watches. And everybody was curious about what he's wearing today. Even nobody of us was into watches. I graduated in watchmaking, search and sales and marketing. And we are both born in Burgdorf, where Armin Strom's from. Armin Strom had this vision of a movement should not be covered with a dialogue. This is why he produced skeletonized watches. We took our local heritage of watchmaking and started to create our own calibers and everything in house. That was so much motivation and so much effort and sweat involved that to create everything in house, which was maybe a bit over ambitious when we were like 28 years old and we said, oh no, we do everything in house. We do the development, we do the raw parts, we do the decoration, the galvanic treatment, assembling, marketing, sales. And I think it's a passion what we do. I think every morning when I drive to the manufacturer, I'm like proud and happy to go to work. And that's not. Life is not all about money. I think it's more about, you know, if you can do what you love and this gives you the motivation to get up early in the morning. To be, you know, ready to create new things. I think that's the biggest gift in life you can have. And this is why we never really, we never would ever consider to sell the company. As long as we have fun to do it and with all the ideas we have, we're going to have fun for many more years.
- [50:29]
David Vaulcher
So one I think, you know, I'm kind of, I don't want to say disappointed but Alan said do you want to take the last question? And I think you actually ended on the best note possible. But since I was offered the chance to, to ask the last question, you know, when you said we were at the beginning of residence, I think that's very interesting because I assumed it was a very niche application really. And you described what I would call lateral application. So in the same sort of price sphere, but in a world where, in a theoretical world where Armin Strom did license its technology or you did want to approach maybe more entry level, entry level segments of the market, is there any potential trickle down application for some of these resonance technologies or at least some of the methods that you use to create it? Or is this really something that can only belong in the high end in terms of pricing and or logical applications?
- [51:26]
Claude Greisler
No, I think because for me what makes odd horolog is not all engineering is scalable. If you want to do like if our goal would be to do 20,000 resonance watches a year, we could offer a way more affordable price than we do today. If we say we don't invest as much as we do in hand finishing we could produce way more watches than we do today. But I think the haute or lie is about innovation but it's also about how the watch is made and how the watch is built. And the most value in the watch next to engineering is definitely the hand decoration. And hand decoration is something which you cannot produce cheaper because it just takes time to do the hand beveling, the bar large, all the finishings applied on the movement by hand. That's something which is time taking. And for me this is also where a lot of the price comes from. The way how we do watches, low quantities, very high level of decoration combined with the latest technology that's a combination which reference to our price. I mean we have learned that the tourbillon doesn't have to be expensive because Chinese watch manufacturer prove that you can produce a tourbillon watch for less than, I don't know a watch movement for less than 15 or 20 US dollars. It's not the mechanic itself which is, I would Say, in charge of the price. It's the way how you execute your product. It's. It's same as when you go into a restaurant. You can take the best steak in the world and I would say you can fuck it up, or you take the best steak in the world and you create the most amazing dish and experience you ever got in your life. And this is the motivation is what that's about. Resonance. Okay, you can take resonance and you just build 100,000 watches a year. You do the spring produced out of silicon without being mirror polished. And it does the job and it makes the movement more consistent. But is it the way how. That's not our approach of how we want to have a mechanical movement be built in the watch. We want to have this amazing. You know, when you look at it, you have to say, wow. It's the way how they created it is. That's amazing.
- [54:24]
Aloman Joseph
Claude, I don't want to say thank you to you because you now fueled my passion even more. And now I'm in a dire need of a resonance piece, so I regret recording this masterclass. All kidding aside, seriously, thank you so much. This has been a pure joy for me. David, how did you enjoy it?
- [54:49]
David Vaulcher
Fantastic. It was absolutely what I was expecting it to be. And I just really appreciate someone with Claude's expertise, you know, taking the time to come on the show and share it with the listeners. It's fantastic.
- [55:00]
Aloman Joseph
Claude, thank you. Thank you so much. It has been a real joy.
- [55:04]
Claude Greisler
Thank you. Me, it's always difficult, you know, if you have. If you spend hours and years by, you know, and resonance is so present, to break it down. I could speak for hours maybe about. About resonance, but I had a lot of fun. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. And yeah, I invite all the listeners to, to. To come and see what we do. Yeah, our. Our doors are open and hopefully we meet each other one day somewhere.
- [55:35]
Aloman Joseph
I urge our dear listeners to do so. Thank you for listening. You can find the previous episode we did with Claude on our official website, www. Therealtime Show. You can find us on Instagram therealtime Show. If you want to support the show, please subscribe, like rate and share it with your friends. If you have any questions, feedback and or criticism, please do send us a message. You can also DM us. If you want to join the TRTS community on WhatsApp. You can reach David on Instagram via D A V A U C H E R Rob, you can find obnudds and me at a L O n B E n Jos EPH and Armin Strom you can obviously find at R A R M I n S T R o m dot com. Stay sane and keep on ticking.