Audicle Analysis — Has The Atelier Wen Ancestra Changed Consumer Expectations?

Summary

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The Real Time Show: Audicle Analysis — Has The Atelier Wen Ancestra Changed Consumer Expectations?

Podcast: The Real Time Show
Hosts: Rob Nudds & Alon Ben Joseph
Guests: David Vaucher
Date: January 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and in-depth episode, Rob Nudds, Alon Ben Joseph, and David Vaucher dissect the impact of Atelier Wen's latest release, the Ancestra, through a familiar Audicle Analysis format. The team delves into the watch’s design, craftsmanship, perceived value, and broader implications for the watch industry—specifically regarding consumer expectations in the sub-5k price bracket and the evolving perception of Chinese watchmaking. The conversation sees lively debate—sometimes philosophical, sometimes practical—on topics from lab-grown diamonds to what makes a brand truly "high end," as well as the magic and transparency in the world of horology.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rob’s Personal Review & the “Audicle Analysis” Format

(00:19–12:57)

• Emotional Impact of the Ancestra:
  Rob, typically stoic, describes the Ancestra as truly overwhelming:

  “The Atelier Wen's necromantic abilities are irrefutable. It has roused me from the long dark for the first time in a long time…” (00:36)

• Design & Value Standouts:

  • Dial: Hand-hammered fume enamel topped by custom font (Western Arabic or Chinese), with six floating baguette-cut lab-grown diamonds.
  • Hands: Uniquely executed, with a peened flat surface between polished curves for high legibility—a rare achievement in this price range.
  • Case Construction: Pronounced double-domed sapphire, concave polished bezel, convex brushed case middle, caseback window—described as a “masterclass in reducing visual weight.”
  • Movement: Features a French Pécigné EPM03 calibre—adjusted in 6 positions and decorated with 305 Chinese characters.
  • Strap and Buckle: High comfort, custom buckle, thoughtfully designed but “not the reason to buy a watch.”

• Criticisms:

  • The scroll (“Huai Wen”) pattern on the dial perimeter looks more Greek than Chinese, distracting Rob (and later, Alon) from the overall theme.
  • Preference for a slightly bigger crown and clearer brand mark visibility.

• Philosophical Questions Raised: Rob asks if the Ancestra, at sub-€5k, is fundamentally shifting consumer standards and expectations from microbrands or independents.

  “Now, let's not panic. I'm sick to the back teeth of hyperbole in reviews… it's supreme, but it isn't unequivocally perfect… There’s a lot going on.” (09:45)

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2. Lab-grown Diamonds and Cultural Signifiers

(13:28–22:43)

• Alon's Perspective on Lab-Grown Diamonds:
  • Strongly insists that they must be called “lab-grown diamonds,” not simply “diamonds,” referencing European and G8 regulations:

    “If it's a lab grown diamond, you're not allowed to call it a diamond. You have to say lab grown diamonds.” (15:15)

  • Regrets the use of lab-grown stones at this price point, believing Atelier Wen’s positioning could have supported real diamonds.
• The ‘Huai Wen’ (Scroll) Pattern:
  Both hosts find this motif unnecessary, especially given Atelier Wen’s now solidified design DNA.

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3. What is "High End" in Watchmaking?

(18:53–23:25)

• Disagreement on Atelier Wen’s Market Position:
  • Rob views the brand as accessible luxury, always pushing price/value boundaries.
  • Alon categorizes €5,000 as edging into higher-end territory—a perspective shaped by industry pyramids.
• Bracketing Watch Levels:
  Debate over terms like "high-end," "haute horlogerie," and where mainstream brands (Rolex, Omega) fit within these tiers.
• Case Comparisons:
  • Atelier Wen’s unique approach to value and pricing compared to both Swiss and other microbrands.

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4. Function Versus Magic: Transparency, Craft, and Storytelling

(28:39–38:24)

• China’s Manufacturing Reputation:
  David and Rob highlight that Chinese manufacturing can deliver both low and very high-quality goods. The difference is what clients demand and what they’re willing to pay.
  • David:

    “To say that China is a company of, or a country, excuse me, of cheap labor and cheap goods is to really disrespect, like millennia of craftsmanship…” (27:15)

• Transparency in Watchmaking:
  • Examples of brands like Christopher Ward and Code 41, which openly communicate their supply chains, thereby destabilizing traditional brand mystique.
• The ‘Magic’ of Watches and Marketing:
  • David draws a parallel to electric vehicles—Western brands must maintain emotional storytelling and status, as pure price-based competition isn’t sustainable when high-quality Chinese alternatives exist.
  • Rob:

    “You want some of that hidden…” (35:37)

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5. Atelier Wen’s Unique Brand Position and Changing the Conversation

(38:24–44:22)

• Bridging East and West:
  • Alon explains how Atelier Wen has succeeded in blending Chinese craftsmanship with French watchmaking, not only technically (by using Pekinier and Girard Perregaux calibers) but also in identity.
  • Louis Erard is cited as another example, but their strategy is contrasted: they began as a "copy-paste" Swiss assembler until a strategic pivot.
• Aesthetic Specificity, Global Tastes, and the Chinese Market:
  • David observes that Ancestra’s overtly Chinese design may limit broad appeal, but also allows Chinese consumers to express national pride and modern identity—a shift from the prior aspiration for Western products.
  • Rob reveals that Atelier Wen’s sales are actually higher in Europe than in China, as the former helps drive perception for the latter’s market.

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6. Industry Threat and Watch Industry Globalization

(44:22–51:44)

• Will Chinese Brands Become Mainstream Rivals?
  • David floats the idea that, like with cars, Chinese watch brands could soon become head-to-head competition for Swiss stalwarts.
  • Rob believes it’s not just possible but likely, especially if they provide "tangible value adds" and debunk manufacturing myths:

    “If you make stuff that's really cool, people are going to want to buy it…” (51:25)

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7. Retail Experience and Curation

(52:08–56:14)

• Alon on Retailing Decisions:
  • Multibrand retailers are curators, tasked with offering variety, quality, and inspiration—not simply following their own taste.
  • Alon shares that he was the first European retailer to import a Chinese brand (Chinese Timekeeper), underlining the importance of offering authentic, high-quality Asian craftsmanship.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rob Nudds:

  “If anything, I often receive criticism for being too seldom even mildly whelmed by anything… Atelier Wen's necromantic abilities are irrefutable. It has roused me from the long dark…” (00:36)

• Alon Ben Joseph:

  “If it's a lab grown diamond, you're not allowed to call it a diamond. You have to say lab grown diamonds.” (15:15)
  “For me, it's not a reason not to sell an Ancestra because I would or would not buy it. If I think the package is good, then I do it.” (52:56)

• David Vaucher:

  “To say that China is a country of cheap labor and cheap goods is to really disrespect, like millennia of craftsmanship going behind it…” (27:15)
  “Sometimes you don't want to see how the sausage is made before eating your sausage…” (34:50)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:19 – Rob’s detailed “Audicle Analysis” review
• 13:28 – Alon’s response: lab-grown diamond debate & “Huai Wen” pattern
• 18:53 – What is “high end”? Bracketing the price/brand tiers
• 28:39 – Value, Chinese craftsmanship, and global manufacturing
• 35:30 – “Magic” vs. transparency in branding and marketing
• 41:14 – Louis Erard’s strategy vs. Atelier Wen’s
• 44:22 – Chinese brands’ place in global perception
• 49:36 – Can Chinese brands become rivals to Swiss luxury?
• 52:08 – Alon on retail curation and brand selection
• 56:14 – Rob on why Ancestra is so good it “almost makes me angry” and episode wrap-up

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Tone & Takeaways

• Enthusiastic, candid, insightful: The episode maintains its trademark blend of deep expertise and approachable, honest conversation. The hosts disagree vigorously but respectfully, especially on market positioning and the finer nuances of branding.
• For listeners: Even those who have never seen the Ancestra will have a vivid sense of its unique appeal, execution, and the questions it raises for the industry’s future. The coverage of Chinese watchmaking’s evolution and global acceptance is nuanced and thought-provoking.
• Big takeaways: The Atelier Wen Ancestra isn’t perfect, but it is “a preposterous achievement,” raising the bar for microbrands and perhaps pushing legacy brands to up their game. It is proof that the provenance and perception of value in watches are evolving, and the future is more global—and more debated—than ever.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome back to another edition of the Real Time Show. Today, for the first time in 2026, we're going to be revisiting our famous Oracle format, and today the honor falls.

[C]

To me to present to you the.

[B]

New Atelier Wen Ancestra, a model that I was lucky enough to have on my wrist before the watch debuted on the market.

[C]

I wrote down my thoughts at the.

[B]

Time, I've expanded on them since, and I'm going to read you what is partially a review of that watch and also a question which we will then turn towards the team and discuss with Alon and David in the article analysis to follow. Until then, enjoy this review. The Italian Ancestra Overwhelmed it's not a sensation to which I'm well accustomed. In fact, if anything, I often receive criticism for being too seldom, even mildly whelmed by anything. On occasion, I've been accused of being dead inside. Perhaps at times I've been inclined to agree, but if that was the case, it is the case no longer. The Atelier Wen's necromantic abilities are irrefutable. It has roused me from the long dark for the first time in a long time, I am as speechless as someone who has reams of opinions to share can be. On the Real Time show, I'm known for an irksome over reliance on a couple of words, most famously fascinating and stunning. While the former is generally applied to our guests stories, the latter is my go to term. Whenever I find myself fawning over a product as basic a bitch as it may make me to stick to my guns, it truly applies to this piece. Not only is it stunningly beautiful, but it is also stunningly well executed. There are so many ideas in this watch that it kept my head shaking in disbelief long after I unboxed it. They say that in art, design and culture there is sometimes something in the air. It is hardly surprising, however spooky it can be, that we are, as a homogenous lump, are influenced by the same things and experience our minds pulling in the same direction simultaneously, I'm currently working on new watch designs for four brands. The Atelier Wen clearly expresses strong visual characteristics I've used in two of those four designs. Rather than find myself annoyed that the Atelier Wen beat me to the punch, I am thrilled to see that I wasn't barking up the wrong tree with a couple of the elements, I'll go on to detail. And just to be frank, it's not like I or Atelier Wen invented anything here. The elements to which I'm referring have been seen before elsewhere in the industry. What is notable though is how they've been combined and brought to life. That said, on the subject of novelty, I don't think I've ever seen hands quite like these, and the number font is certainly original to this model. Let's get this out of the way early. This model is, in my humble but seasoned opinion, way better than the perception. It is in almost every way a superior product. Some will lament the absence of Guilloche, which of course was one of the brand's most potent selling points and a strong differentiator at the price point in question, but it has been handily replaced by a hand hammered fume enamel dial topped by a custom font in either Western Arabic or Chinese script and six baguette cut diamond that seem to float above the dial thanks to unusual setting method that sticks the landing. Hovering even further above these diamonds is a handset that rivals any I've seen, especially at this price point. For the top spot, the mottled peened flat surface flanked by polished curves ensures that the hands are highly legible from any viewing angle. It's a huge achievement to achieve such readability with such an artistic and potentially distracting dialogue. The finishing of these hands is extremely good. Hands can quickly give away corner cutting and undermined an otherwise laudable concept, but when they're done this well, the exact opposite is true. This handset elevates the ancestor to a level quite unexpected at sub 5k, one slightly divisive element, and I suppose if I must apply a dash of criticism in my review, my least favorite aspect of the design is the scroll pattern that encircles the dial and rings the neat little prayer that sinks into the right hand side side of the case. Although it is a traditional Chinese pattern and a callback to the Perception series, it always looks Greek to me, which despite loving all things Hellenistic, distracts me a bit. Thanks to the pronounced double dome of the crystal, the level of deformation of this perimeter decoration is extreme. It kind of works in that sense as it gives the eye an excellent anchor point from which the strongly convex sapphire can be appreciated. But the warping is so strong and the positioning of the scrollwork so precisely beneath the sharpest curve of the crystal, it's almost impossible to catch a glimpse of it. Undeformed. Because of the diamonds, the dial and that enticing handset, you will 100% find yourself wrist rolling the heck out of this piece. So that deformation is something you'll have to learn to live with if it bothers you, as it did me at first, at least. Hammering home the value proposition is a notably supple strap that feels absolutely heavenly out of the box. I have a 16.5cm wrist and the ancestress sits perfectly on it and happens to fasten on one particular hole that gives me millimeter perfect fit. There's just enough wiggle room for a bit of wrist expansion and so I don't feel like my watch is trying to throttle me to death. The buckle design is sensibly unremarkable, but satisfyingly custom. It is a tidy component. It is unfussy, matter of fact, pleasingly petite and works as a buckle should. Buckles are rarely the reason why I would buy a watch, except for maybe anything by Fortis Orange or Louis Monnay. What a weird trio, but they should not be a reason to not buy a watch. This one fulfils the remake quietly, with just enough effort to not be accused of phoning it in. There is a ridiculously appealing flow to the design of this case. I've mentioned the pronounced Double Dome sapphire on the front, but that's just the beginning. That sapphire is ringed by a concave polished bezel that sits atop a convex and beautifully brushed case middle, a flawless transition that reminds me of the last generation Urban Jurgensen cases, of which I am a huge fan. That leads into a concave case back that hogs the lip of a Double Dome sapphire case back window that flattens out by the point it protrudes from the protective surround so the crystal isn't in danger of shattering when laid down on a table. It's a masterclass in reducing visual weight while maximizing visual interest. The depth of the enamel dial, the height of the diamond indexes and the towering handset is possible thanks to that generously proportioned crystal. It feels like it should look comically proud on the wrist, but it doesn't at all. It is, in a word, superb. The lugs are made and finished separately. The benefit of this is clearly apparent in the finishing. The crisp, clean transitions from polished to brushed surfaces are textbook. For me, the only finishing that comes close at this price point is from Menase or maybe an entry level Grand Seiko. It is the highest praise I can give in this category as I admire the skills of those Japanese masters above all others in the more affordable sphere. Now let's talk about that open case back. This is the first time Atelier Wen has opened up a case in this fashion. Previously, the Perception featured a window through which the rotor could occasionally be seen. I didn't love it. It's cute. It's different, but I find shaped or oddly sized caseback windows gimmicky. They are fun for a little while maybe, but they get old quickly for me. If you're going to open a case back, open it all the way and make sure you've got a bloody good reason for doing so. No one needs to see another bog standard off the shelf tractor caliber from Sellita Eta or maybe even Ny le jeu Par. Luckily that's not what we're seeing here at all. Instead we have a movement from French maker Pecigne. The EPM03 calibre is tested for 16 days and adjusted in 6 positions to achieve timekeeping performance of 6 -4 seconds per day. It is decorated with 305 laser engraved Chinese characters poetry. In fact. The rose gold plated rotor provides a lovely contrast and gives me JLC vibes for some reason. Whatever the reason, I like it. While it may seem odd that a proudly Chinese brand is using a French caliber, it makes more sense when you remember that the two founders, Robin and Wilfrid, despite being fluent Mandarin speakers and intimately acquainted with the Chinese culture they grew up with, are both French born. In that sense, it's a heartwarming nod to the bi national origins of this watch. Is there anything I would change about the Atelier when Ancestry? Well, I would be tempted to outline the printing of the wordmark in black or dark blue and maybe getting rid.

[C]

Of the logo above it as I.

[B]

Feel the circular nature of it gets lost against the hammered dial surface. I am a fan of bigger crowns, so I could handle this one being scaled up slightly, but I have to give it its dues for its subtlety and haptic performance. Overall, this watch is so good it almost makes me angry. Angry that I didn't design it, angry that it has been designed and released and now I'll never get to experience seeing it for the first time ever again, and angry that I'll probably have to buy one. Thanks guys. But aside from my bubbling fury, how else does the Atelier When Ancestry make me feel? Well, to be frank, philosophical. It makes me question what on earth it means for other brands operating in this same space. Now, let's not panic. I'm sick to the back teeth of hyperbole and reviews proclaiming this watch to have ended watchmaking, or that making out that the Ancestry is now the only.

[C]

Watch anyone could reasonably choose.

[B]

Under 5k it's supreme, but it isn't unequivocally perfect and then, of course, there's a matter of taste. You may simply not like it, or find yourself unable to get over one or more of the several divisive design choices, such as the font, scrollwork, fume, dial hands, crystal or something else. Let's face it, there's a lot going on. However, this is an incredible value proposition for under 5,000, and even more incredible considering it comes from a Chinese microbrand making just its second model release. Now we could chew over whether or not Atelier Wen is best defined as a microbrand or a small independent. Personally, I would favour the latter, but regardless of its categorization, it's undoubtedly on the radar of consumers consuming brands of that ilk. I'm a member of many WhatsApp groups. On one of them, just the other day, someone piped up with a comment something along the lines of I'm so jaded by the pricing madness of the watch industry, the Atelier Wen Ancestra seems like a bargain at 5G for a micro brand watch. What's become of me? So I get his point. Okay, it is a bit jarring. 10 years ago, 5,000 would buy you a Speedmaster and a super sized Big Mac meal every day until Christmas. How delicious does that seem now? But the thing is, it isn't 2016, it's 2026. Nowadays, five large buys you around 70% of a basic Speedmaster and zero Big Macs, let alone a super sized meal. New, practically unheard of brands frequently charge this kind of money because a the.

[C]

Work being done by these smaller and.

[B]

More dynamic brands is more ambitious than ever before b everything got more expensive, suppliers jacked up prices, long lead times mean building inflation into an announced cost becomes essential if you actually want to make any money. By the time your parts arrive and Covid happened, inflicting a hammer strike on an industry that had thrived on stability for decades. That wound is far from healed and should it continue to fester, could well have been a lingering death blow for some. And so yes, the Atelier Wen Ancestra is close to €5,000 and it is a bargain. What you get for your money is a watch designed with a delightfully delicate touch, riddled with character, smacking of something worth almost twice as much and stuffed with more Easter eggs than the Easter Bunny's kids. There's the detachable lugs enabling crisp surface finish transition, the small bolts that attach them to the case, affixed by internal screws and lining up satisfyingly on the exterior, the almost imperceptible scrollwork on the crown mirroring the periphery of the dial, the subtle double dome of the back crystal, the multi hour laser job. The movement has endured those diamonds. I mean, come on, diamonds. Does this model raise the bar? Yes, in a word, it does. While we gripe and moan about the state of the industry and how hard it is to make any money, brands like Atelier Wen are doing their level best to give us more and more for our hard earned dime here. Rob and Wilfred and the team have succeeded. It is a preposterous achievement. Should other brands in this bracket be intimidated? Maybe. But perhaps being inspired would be more helpful for their balance sheets and their customers. And so, with that love letter of an article, I turn the question over to my comrades back in the studio. Are watches like the atelier went ancestra changing consumer expectations? And if so, which brands are stepping up to the plate and which brands remain in the locker room fumbling with their cleats? Back to the studio.

[C]

Welcome back to the studio, gang. And yes, it's me again. Rob Knudds on the mic to introduce my two favorite colleagues, Alain Ben Joseph and David Vaucher of the Real Time show. Because we're going to discuss what I just said and then we're going to talk about several interesting discussion points surrounding the atelier when Ancestra I am going to kick it over to Alon first because he's got some strong feelings about what I've just said. So let's hear what the friendly neighborhood jeweler has to say.

[A]

Not only happy to hear that that decorative you called it scroll or work and Hellenistic pattern wasn't needed for you on this watch. I had the same feeling. I, I, I, I couldn't put it into words. So you really helped me with that article of yours, by the way. Well done. And I'm a big fan of Atelier Wen and the gentleman behind the brand. And I love the fact that they bridge the east and the west in an horological way. We all did a bit of research about what that scroll work is called and we found in our research that this pattern is Huay Wen and we don't know if you pronounce that correctly. Phonetically, it's spelled H U I W E N and literally translates to the return pattern. And it's a traditional Chinese name for the meander or a Greek ki design. So was it interesting that you made that reference in in your article, Rob? And it was for me, a bit enlightenment. But then you got all my senses fired up and you probably unwillingly walked into A trap that I warned a lot of watch brands that they should not let journalists and consumers walk into. You kept on saying diamonds, diamonds, diamonds, diamonds. But we've all agreed if it's a lab grown diamond, you're not allowed to call it a diamond. You have to say lab grown diamonds.

[C]

I don't agree to that. There's no piece of paper in my name on it that says that it's still a diamond. It might be lab grown or not. It's not just. It's just lab grown.

[A]

We have agreed in the west and I'll give you maybe a whole pass because it's an Asian watch, but in the west There is an ICE ISO document that we've agreed even on a G8 level that you're not allowed to call lab grown diamonds diamonds, exclamation mark. So I'm happy that atelier when everywhere in the communication calls it a lab grown diamond. So I salute atelier when a few brands have missed this where they 4 out of 5 times call it a diamond and then a little print in the spec sheet, right? That's a lab grown up. So you've done it on purpose. I fully, fully, fully disagree with you. And I know why you think it's okay. Because in the watchmaking world we don't speak about sapphire being lab grown or synthetic. We just call it sapphire crystal. So if that's your trail of thought, I understand you why I am getting fired up. Obviously because I'm a diamante and a jeweler. But it touches upon a point that I regret them using a lab grown diamond, not a diamond. The funny thing is this would have been or could have been the first watch I would ever wear with diamonds. The funny thing is I love atelier1. There's actually not a single product that they have made that I don't like. And this ancestor is stunning. I remember Robin showing me or us the prototype and I could have only discounted one thing, which is the Hui Wen pattern because it's not my personal taste. I also said you guys honestly don't need it anymore because you've created a style DNA for yourself and as a brand that I don't think you need that to per se underwrite that you're made in in China. But okay, that's a personal taste. So we can park that discussion maybe for later. I'm very curious what it does 4 and 2 David. But the lab grown annoyed me because there are a high end brand, their watches start at 4 or 5,000. This what I did Love is the first time they use the Peking movement outside picking itself. Maybe there's another brand. But David, correct me if there's another brand that uses picking their movements. Maybe it's Yema, but I'm not sure. And they've made a tantalum watch where they are, I believe a first brand in modern era that uses Girard Perregaux brand. So they're really on the upper side of the watchmaking industry in my humble opinion. So I think they could have gone away with natural diamonds. I think that they should have steered away from lab grown diamonds because the Pandoras of this world and lower end brands are shifting to labground diamonds where a middle range brand that use lab grown diamonds is brightening. And I think they shouldn't have had to. Rob is nodding his head, raising his hands. Mike to you, Rob.

[C]

Yeah, I just have to jump in here because I think the placement of atelier Wen in the higher end of horology is just crazy because the watch, the perception starts at €2,900 with a guilloche dial. So I think that one of their main calling cards has always been offering exceptional value for a very accessible price. I just can't get on board with the idea that they are a high end brand. I mean, remember as well. Yes, okay. The lab grown diamonds, you're absolutely right. So to me, as a watchmaker, it amounts to largely the same thing. The material is diamond, whether it's grown in a lab or in the crust of the earth or otherwise. But under 5k, I don't expect to see diamond markers, not baguette markers of that size. I don't even know if it's possible or ethical to have real diamonds or just diamonds if you prefer, on the dial at that price point. I mean the tantalum watch that you reference is under 10k I believe. I think it's, I think that's its main sort of selling point. So always, always, always they're trying to push the envelope when it comes to value.

[A]

So, so that's interesting. For me, everything below a thousand is low end. Mid range for me is a thousand to three, maybe 5k. But in my perception, the initial collection, what or the brand started off with the perception at indeed 2000, but I understood it sold out. I don't understand they're making that. I thought they moved to inflection with a GP caliber at €26,000. And then the answer is the entry level today.

[C]

Are we saying then that we qualify like anything above 5k as like the upper End of horology.

[A]

No, I said higher end. I didn't say hot ho luxury or the pinnacle.

[C]

Okay, well what's. Well that's what hotel means in English. Like so what are we talking about? Like what's the bracket above higher end? Where's hublot? Are we putting atelier when in the hublot bracket or what? I mean I'm just trying to get my head around it because like I would regard even like the main powerhouses of the industry like Rolex and Omega, not as haute or luxury, not as higher end horology as pretty solid mid level luxury products.

[A]

So let's take the Swatch group pyramid entry level, low end, mid range, high range, hotel luxury. So you have five level. For argument's sake. I have the feeling that in my pyramid, loaning it off the Swatch group of hierarchy of how we label price brackets or perception of, of what is luxury or high end atelier. When I think went from mid range to higher end, I'm not calling it hotel luxury, I'm not calling it manufacturer. Some brands want to categorize the manufacturer. But if Frederic Constant's accessible luxury, where their sweet spot used to be 1,000 to 3,000, they're moving with manufacturer into 3 to 5,000. 10,000 for perpetual, maybe 15 for tourbillon. I don't call them higher end. They're the higher end of the mid range. But for my feeling atelier Wen was moving slowly with entry level 5000, which I don't find low. It's a lot of value for money, but not low. And could they have pulled off 6 baguette diamonds natural for 5k? They could have because they're not playing the sustainability card. And pekinge calibers are good, but they're not definitely so expensive like a Vaushere caliber. So in my humble opinion, yeah, what I do love is the dial and the sterling silver Hammond dial. And that's really metier. They are. But that's maybe a discussion for later.

[C]

I mean if you take just the diamonds and say could you put those diamonds on a watch for under 5k maybe yes, but it might not have a strap or a bracelet or even a movement. Like if you, if you're talking about making a product that could be sold for a profit. Just to clarify something to the listeners, Alon and I are talking about two different tantalum watches from Atelier Wen. The first tantalum watch, the Perception was US$10,000 and it did not have a GP caliber. Alons talking about the inflection which is the more recent release with the GP.

[B]

Calibre, which is 26 plus.

[C]

So they're two different watches. They are both still incredibly good value. The perception was deliberately a marketing stunt, effectively to do a tantalum watch for 10,000, which had never been done before. I don't believe so.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just to make that clear in the minds of our listeners, let's just. We're getting into very specific stuff already because of the terminology used and how we're bracketing this watch. But. Alain, could you just give me a quick, like, response to the article? In general, you like the watch, but there are some things you don't like, like the hui when scroll pattern and also the lab grown diamonds.

[A]

Yes. So overall, I liked the article. I like the watch. When I saw it, I said, yes, new, fresh, interesting. It piqued my interest. First thing that happens is your eyes are drawn to that beautiful gradient. Hammered dial and then not brass, but sterling silver, real enamel. I'm like, oh, amazing. Hey. Then only suddenly you notice that there is an alternation between diamond indexes and a number. Either Arabic numbers or Chinese. So also interesting that they cater to both. It looks nice. And then only my eyes went to that pattern that I didn't think was really necessary because it doesn't have a function like a minute track that often we'll see a track around indexes or hour markers. So I don't think it was needed because there's so much going on. And then when you turn it around, you'll say interesting caliber, and they use Pekinge, and then they bridge Asia with Europe, which is, I think, very, very cool. So, overall, I salute Atelier Ben, and therefore also your stance in your article.

[C]

Okay, David, let's. Let's get you on the mic because we have monopolized it for the last 13 minutes, and I apologize for that. But we have to clarify some of those things that we're batting back and forth between us. What was your takeaway from the article itself?

[D]

Well, so, first of all, I thought the delivery was great. Um, obviously, Rob, you've had some practice on the mic and you could tell just how it was delivered. And I really appreciated the enthusiasm. Uh, it was very clear that you love this watch. And full disclosure for everyone listening. I have not handled one of these. So what I'm about to say is based off of Rob's impression. Then, of course, my research online. And I'll just start by saying that aesthetically, this is not for me in any way. In any way. However, as I was thinking how I wanted to word this, I knew it gets kind of delicate because when I say it's not aesthetically, for me, this is a watch that's really tied into, like a country's traditions. I mean, yeah, it's French, but really what we're seeing is the Chinese side come out. And so I wanted to be very careful on how I say that. This type of watch, I'm happy it exists, because in the same way that these atelier Wen watches are really excited about celebrating Chinese heritage, and it's not for me, there might be a French watch, and there's a lot of them that I really love that other people just don't get because they don't have that, they haven't grown up in it, they don't have the sensibility. But I really celebrate these existing. I think it's fantastic that there's the manufacturing capacity and the vision out there to make something for everyone. So where I want to have the discussion here is from points that don't have to be aesthetic. In other words, we can talk about value like y' all were talking about. You know, what's high end to me, as the house repair bills accumulate, like a thousand dollar watch or a thousand euro watch to me is more and more high end because in an absolute sense, it's expensive. So when we talk about this atelier, one watch selling for €5,000, that's a lot. And my business side is kind of turning, saying, this is a very specific watch for a very specific audience. Are they going to find takers at €5,000? So maybe we can talk about that. Like, how specific can you get in the watch industry and get away with it? And then the other thing I want to talk about too is this watch does have a pekinier movement, which I think is interesting in and of itself. And so I think there's a real avenue to have French watchmaking discovered. But more than anything, I think there's an avenue for appreciation of Chinese watchmaking because for a long time, and I think this perception still exists, China is where you go to have make. To have cheap things made. And I think that's not true. I think it's where you go to have cheap things made because that's what you ask for and because historically the labor has been cheap. But to say that China is a company of, or a country, excuse me, of cheap labor and cheap goods is to really disrespect, like millennia of craftsmanship going behind it, even to this day, actually. And so I think that if this is a way of making people understand that you can have low quality goods made or you can have very high quality goods made, I think that's a positive thing. And I know, Rob, you want to say something, but you know, regardless of the geopolitics of things going on, I think that there's people behind all of these things and it's, it's not fair of us or anyone to say, well, this country traditionally has made cheap things and so the people can't make good stuff. I think the Chinese watchmaking industry is full of professionals who make great stuff, and I think it's great that we have this platform off of which to showcase that.

[C]

So let's make it clear there's no difference. If there is a difference, maybe even in China's favor in the level of artisanal ability of the Chinese workers versus the European workers, the only thing that really matters is that the labor is cheaper in China. It is cheaper to have anything made in China, basically. And so you can have cheap goods made there badly, you can have luxury goods made there cheaply. And that is why not only the entry level uses the Asian market for manufacturing, but so too does the very top end of watchmaking. Cases, movement components, dials, hands. Nearly all of this stuff now, regardless of what it says on the dial, is coming out of either China or India who are making a real push with cases and hands themselves. So, yeah, I mean, it's a simple fact. You can have something made cheaply and poorly anywhere in the world. But if you go to a place that has 5,000 years of artisanal culture behind it, a huge amount of know how a lot of expat Europeans settling there with exactly the same machines that they had in Le Chaux de France, but just charging less because it costs less to live there. Of course you can get exceptional quality for exceptional value. And there are some brands, as we mentioned off air, that have really tried to leverage this in their communications and to be more transparent about the cost of their items, to kind of pull the rug from underneath the established order's feet. That is not a popular strategy in Switzerland because it is dismantling the illusion that many people have purchased under over the last several decades. And if we want to talk about two specifically, and we'll talk about this value proposition now because you mentioned it, David, Christopher Ward and Code 41 have both been extremely transparent about how they build their watches, where their components come from and what you can expect when you buy their pieces. And as a result, especially Christopher Ward have had stratospheric success in doing that. The question really when it comes to strategies like that is are they sustainable? Can we ever foresee a future in watchmaking where the magic is totally removed and we're just buying products? Alon, I think you probably have a good take on this, so why don't you have a go at that one?

[A]

Well, it's almost rhetorical. Well, while thinking, also listening to you guys and thinking about positioning and pricing, I had a quick look at what a Pekinget watch cost with that caliber. And they sell them, I believe, for around three and a half thousand. So if you think about the added metier they are by atelier Wen it's bonkers because for €1600 you get a silver dial, hammered enameled and diamonds lab or not. But it's still a factor to, to, to process in and, and, and, and the finishing, by the way, which you, because of you, I didn't even notice it while I held the hand because a. I started or I need to start using reading glasses, hence my multitude of typos when I message you guys, I didn't see indeed the beautiful pattern that atelier added to the caliber which is made for them. So because of the article, I only noticed that. So thank you for pointing that out, Rob. To answer your question, yeah, it's all about emotions and perception and it's interesting that one of the names, and you know what I was happy to hear about one of our mutual friends, a retailer who took a chance on this brand with this model and they were even surprised by the great success of that watch. So apparently they add value because we keep on saying on the show, a beautiful watch is a sold watch. So the proof is in the pudding. Right. And they've hit, they struck a chord. It resonates, it works and they're doing well and they're keeping and pushing upwards.

[D]

Yeah. So I want to jump in on this. We're going on the chat and, and Rob has asked me in the background, can, can watchmaking exist without magic? And we're going to go in a direction I don't think that you have thought of. So let's think about electric vehicles. So I've got a kind of a business where I'm, I'm thinking of the automotive industry and I want to bring some of that in because if we think of watchmaking relatively recently, Japan and the quartz crisis. Right. And the genius of the watch industry was to basically say that a watch is no longer a tool, it's an object of desire. Because prior to the Quartz crisis. If you look at old ads from the 50s, 60s, it was all like time o matic and precision o matic and things like that. It was emphasizing these very objective qualities. And so quartz then comes in and does all of that for much, much, for a much lower cost. I mean, originally they were very expensive, but as economies of scale came in, these watches cost nothing, basically. And so the Swiss, after a period of trying to make super quartz, that didn't work. They were trying to compete on those terms, they then moved up market and then that has worked. And if we look at the automotive industry now with EVs, China's coming in and they're basically selling cars that are really, really good for a much lower price. So you take the equivalent Chinese car and European car and specs, the Chinese one's cheaper. And so the line of thought I'm following on this is that the cost structure in Europe is not set up to compete with Chinese EV companies. And so they have to keep that magic. They have to refer to things like the emotions you felt when you first saw one, the emotions created on the racetrack. And so although I, I celebrate Chinese watchmaking for what it is and when it's presented as Chinese watchmaking, but from the Swiss point of view, unless they're prepared to go up market again, I don't see how they get away with being completely transparent because then the magic is gone and, and then you're selling something that, I mean, Alan, you know this because you work in, you're selling luxury goods all the time. It's not the thing, it's the way that the thing makes you feel. And sometimes you don't want to see how the sausage is made before eating your sausage, if you know what I mean. Right. Like you want some of that hidden.

[C]

It's a hugely good point. I mean, it kind of touches on the sustainability or the, the potential adoption of the Christopher Ward strategy. Or to say that it isn't really potentially adoptable by most brands or by many brands, it's just a moment in time. They saw a window, they exploited. It is or was their usp. It is a selling point, if not unique anymore. But other brands looking at major successes often make the mistake of thinking that everything is replicable. Most brands I work with say, how can we be Rolex? And I'm like, well, rather than build a watch, focus on building the time machine and get back there in time and do all the things that Rolex did when they do them and do them before them and better than same thing. With Christopher Ward, maybe it was just a moment and you know, that's their thing and it will always be their thing. Or maybe less so in the future. We're seeing them move up and up and up. Maybe David, they are actually adopting exactly what you're talking about there. They are going for more magic and less transparency. Now they realize perhaps that they've that strategy has run its course. What we see in the Ancestra though is not transparency in terms of where these things come from, but multiple value adds which Alon nicely framed with his reference to the Pecunier that uses the same base caliber. Obviously we've got several hours of laser engraving on the Atelier Wen which adds value to that piece. We've got a multi component, very complicated, beautifully finished case which adds value to that piece. Not just the hand hammered sterling silver enamel dial but also also those hands which are extremely unusual and made in a very strange way. Multiple processes in there. And of course we've got lab grown diamonds and we've got unique typefaces as well in Chinese and in Western Arabic. So there are a lot of things being pulled into this product which I think are really tangibly obvious, which is what scares me now. If we look around the industry in a similar price point and we try and find brands which are pursuing some artisanal craft. We picked up on a few names together off air. One was Anordain. We mentioned Vitrium, the Danish company that's kind of aping Anordain but not quite as good, but they're good value. Louis Arad Alon mentioned, which is an absolutely brilliant example because they really have created a very democratic platform which Alain will talk more about in a moment. And I mentioned that even Isotope and Denison are experimenting with marquetry in a very affordable price bracket. So we're seeing more and more brands bringing these tangible value ads to an accessible price missing sphere. Why don't you talk a little bit about Louis Arad and why Maybe the watches by Louis Arad are beloved by their collectors but haven't quite caused the same stir in the industry. As atelier went.

[A]

I'll jump on. First at the UN did something truly new. They it's a Chinese brand with European French founders trying to bring back the perception which David indicated. Chinese craftsmen used to be the best of the best and they have special techniques that were developed there. They wanted to create a pedestal again which I think they've succeeded and I salute them for that. And then they took one step further by bridging the Two worlds east and west. And they, they do that with these calibers now. French Pekinier, Swiss Girard Perregaux. So, so that's cool. Louis had maybe a more difficult task that it used to be a I, I, I call it a copy paste brand. So private label ish. It just uses all the resources in Switzerland, doesn't really design stuff so much and just assembles or have it assembled and stick your name on it. Until Manuel Emsch came on board and he instilled a strategy and a mission and started executing where he said okay, let us show all the beauty of Switzerland with Matthias de Arc and try to do it on an affordable level. So I guess those are different strategies. Not saying one is better than the other, but because Atelier Wen started from scratch, they had it maybe do I dare to say easier than for example Louisa. And if I still have the mic, I maybe want to quickly touch upon Christopher Ward, which is interesting. It's they've started where the USP was. Hey, we cut out the middleman and we give you a lot of bang for your buck. But then they suddenly grew into a brand from a sales organization to marketing driven and now actually being confronted with the fact that some perceive them as a brand, they said, hey, what uniqueness or products do we have? So I guess with the Balcanto they put themselves on the map and with the Loco, now they are forging and actually brand DNA. So that maybe begs also the question, what does it take indeed to be the not like Rolex, but the next Rolex?

[D]

So I want to jump in here in terms of so tying from Louis era to this Chinese design generally. I think Alan, you're right. I saw a Louis or our watch years ago and it was nice, but it wasn't any more than that. And with the Allen Silverstein collaborations, they really built a name for themselves as a place where you go for avant garde design. And I think with respect to the Atelier Wen watch, as I was saying, it's not for me, but there's a channel or an account I follow on Instagram called China Business Sites where basically a Chinese woman who has been to business school in the US will translate concepts for people like me who want to know more about that market because it is very specific. And one of the things she said which really stuck out to me was years ago Chinese consumers would want Western luxury brands because they wanted the qualities associated with those brands that that would imbue status on you. But now that the market has matured, they want brands that allow them to represent themselves better. And so one of the things that I think has been sort of put against Chinese companies manufacturing prior to now is that they are. They've been copycat brands. They haven't really had a sense of design, or at least not one that resonates with the West. And I think that's changing. But I think what's also interesting is that you're going to get products like this Atelier 1 watch that maybe do resonate more. So other China will not be saying, we want Western goods now. We don't want what our country produces. They might say, no, we make really great things. And these allow us to express better versions of ourselves that we like more. And that is where the audience will be found. Rob, what do you think?

[C]

Yeah, I want to just go back to something Alon said and then address exactly what you just mentioned first. I don't think Chinese craftsmanship has ever disappeared. It's our fault, the West's fault. The race to the bottom is motivated by our rampant consumerism in the west, that just because Chinese labor is cheap, and therefore we go to them, ask them to make things as cheaply as possible, doesn't mean that the craftspeople aren't maintaining the. The heritage of that incredibly rich nation. All this time, it's there. We just didn't want to pay for it because we want to make money. We want to exploit the naivety of our own people and sell them crap for more than they should be paying for it so we can buy Bentleys and flats and super yachts. So this idea that, like, oh, China makes crap, it's like, it's true because we asked them to. But look at all the other stuff China makes. Look at their bridges, look at their skyscrapers. Look how quickly they're able to do stuff. Okay, we can talk like the. The logistical side of that and the ethics behind it on a separate podcast entirely, I'm sure not the Real Time show. But, you know, it should come as no surprise that they are able to do anything that we ask of them. We just rarely ask them to. Now, David, to your point, very interesting. I was talking to Robin about the popularity or lack thereof of atelier when.

[B]

In China, because I said, oh, is.

[C]

The Chinese market responding to this homegrown hero? Are they like, screw Omega, who needs Rolex? We've now got our own leading light in the serious horology game? And he said, no, no, it's. It's not very big in China at all. The strategy was always to build the brand in Europe to increase its value perception in the minds of the Chinese consumers to go that way around. So it is what you're describing. Of course, it maybe feeds into the older way of thinking that your, your friend was describing. That yes, they wanted, they aspired to these Western ideals. It could in 10, 20 years be the perfect fusion of those two things to have built a reputation in the west where it is respected and regarded in our hemisphere versus it being something of which the Chinese people are aware and very, very proud. So it's, it's a very, very interesting movement. It is, I always hesitate to say unique because it's obviously, if it's unique, it's one and only. But it's very, very unusual to see a Chinese brand or an Asian brand come out and do something like this. Being openly Asian, I think the only other one I can think of off the top of my head that's vaguely similar would be Beren's, which is again offering a huge amount of design and technique for a very affordable price.

[D]

Yeah, but Behrens is. It looked to me it looks like a traditional Swiss brand. Like I can relate to Barron's. And this is where maybe again, I don't mean to be indelicate, but did the atelier Wen design, as I understand it, Rob, like they want to sell into the West. Do you have any insight onto how it was so man, heavy handed? I don't know if that's the right word, but like it doesn't make a lot of attempt to sort of. Again, it's hard, like use the word adjust, but that's the wrong word because you don't want to, to flatten someone's culture just to go elsewhere, even though I know it happens. But it does seem like they lean really, really heavily into the Chinese influence rather than trying to adapt it to Western sensibilities, if that makes sense. They're basically saying we are making a watch, that is what it is and we want it to resonate with the people who identify with that. Is that, is that correct? Do I understand that properly?

[C]

Well, what do you think a Chinese watch looks like? I guess that's a.

[D]

That's a good question, but that's what I'm saying. But as soon as I saw it like I was, I immediately thought aesthetically it's not for me. And I'll be honest, a bit. A lot of that is because I just, I can't relate to any of the iconography. I'm not saying it's bad, but I didn't Grow up with it. And there's a lot of French design that people just think looks, think looks super weird. Alan Silverstein comes across as really weird. If you don't understand the French school of design. Right. And that makes no effort to. It is what it is, basically. And so I'm just sort of saying, is that what the design rationale was behind the Ancestra?

[C]

I honestly think that there are very few elements about that watch that you would say, oh, that's clearly Chinese. I think if we take the perception as the example, as the launch model, then I would say yes. The Huai Wen key pattern around the outside is Chinese inspired. The case back has some Chinese motif on it, but beyond that, it's just a good quality watch. I think the key here is in the communication, in the openness of them to say this is a Chinese brand, to not try and hide behind the idea that Swiss made is a salve that cures all ills. Like, I think they've made a good quality product and they put a hand Geoche dial into a watch under €3,000, which in the west was sort of seen as impossible and proof that it wasn't impossible. And to, to explain how it was possible, they pointed to the fact it was Chinese made. And they're saying, look, this doesn't have.

[B]

The Swiss made badge.

[C]

It's tangibly similar to everything that you will buy from Switzerland, if we're being honest. But you get this incredible level of craftsmanship that you wouldn't be able to access for three times the price in Europe, because we're telling you this is Chinese made. So I honestly think that the strategy is more about accurately and honestly communicating why the watch is able to cost what it costs and in doing so, not diminishing its value.

[D]

So let me ask you this then. With EVs, there's tariffs that are put up because countries know that if these get into the market, consumers are going to buy them. In the same way that Japanese cars were not very well regarded, now they're seen very highly. Same with South Korean cars. Is there a possibility in the watch industry? And maybe this goes back to the magic question that if it were in fact said openly that, hey, all these watches are coming from China, they do great stuff. As Chinese design evolves in the same way that these other examples I've listed have evolved, do you think it's possible that we have Chinese mechanical watches coming into the industry and being a real threat, like beyond just the, you know, go on to AliExpress type stuff that you can find now. But a real threat is sort of standalone brands that go head to head with with the established players.

[C]

I think it's 100% a possibility. Yeah. And I think there's almost certainly a market for it. How big that market is is a good question. But that's always a question we ask when we're pitching new products. But atelier one may well be blazing a trail. It is. And I guess the name of the watch is no coincidence. It is altering the perception of what kind of quality we can expect coming out of the Far East. There was, it came up earlier and you've just touched upon it again. How specific can we get in the watch industry when we're designing a product and when we're trying to think about what is the target market size, what is its actual size? I would say you can get pretty specific depending on your product positioning, where you put it in terms of price and what you're offering in terms of real value. And why I think that is because, as I've said on many other shows, the actual number of people buying luxury.

[B]

Watches worldwide is incredibly small.

[C]

It doesn't seem feasible that it is able to sustain so much diversity within our industry. But the majority of people that are buying true luxury watches, let's take alon's definition of plus 5k is extremely small and very likely to buy multiple pieces. So if you are able to debunk a lot of the myths surround Asian manufacturing, there's absolutely potential that people will buy something like that. I mean, look at Behrens. Okay, you may say it looks like a Swiss watch, but people are like, I don't care where it's made because it's fucking cool. You know, and that is enough of a reason for someone to buy that watch. You were talking earlier, David, off air about the code 41 Mechascape, which we all actually love as an object. We think it's maybe a bit pricey for what it is because it's nearly 30k now for a desk clock. But it's cool as hell. And if you make stuff that's really cool, people are going to want to buy it.

[B]

It's that simple.

[C]

And if you are able to, to, like I say, dispel these concerns around things made in Asia, which atelier Wen is doing a damn good job of doing for the rest of the Asian market, there's no reason why it couldn't become a serious threat to watchmaking as we know it.

[D]

Alan, I want to ask you because you're in the business and you seem to carry ever more brands. And I just think to myself, well, how do you manage that? But it really seems to me like obviously you're in the business is. I'm trying to think how to say this. Is there ever a point where you're like, okay, I cannot sell anymore? Or do you always just think, if the product is good and I like it, I can find a way to then sell that to my customers?

[A]

Define any more. More brands, more watches.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Grow the business.

[D]

I suppose both, because putting myself in your shoes, maybe there's a point where you say, and I'm just making these numbers up, I have no idea. But you're like, okay, we carry 30 brands, they represent 200 watches. It doesn't really matter what the mix is. I just know I can't sell them because I only have a limited customer base. But you're always adding these really interesting brands like you picked up JC Biver recently, you retail fears. I mean these are very different things than obviously just the classic brands. Everyone knows they're just really different. And yet it always seems like if you're adding them, obviously there's a reason that you've added them in your mind. You're telling yourself, I can sell them and make money. So, so, so what are your thoughts on that?

[A]

So thank you for asking that. As a retailer, I think you need to, you're, you're there for several reasons. Especially as you're a multi brand retailer, you have a task to offer a variety because that's what a mono brand boutique can't do. So you need multiple brands. Then I believe as a retail, you're a curator, you're a gatekeeper, you're a concierge. So not only do you need to make sure you offer quality, whatever quality you decide as a retailer, that is your baseline, but you also need to inspire. So I, I, I, I. We've said on air several times, retail is an experience or should be an experience and a positive one. It's often negative, but it should be fun. It's a day out. You need retail therapy and a part of that is to inspire. So us, the Ben Josephs and at Ace, we don't take brands because we guarantee no, we have somebody to buy it. First and foremost we need to like the partners and the quality. Then there is a discussion about style, if you like it or not. For me, it's not a reason not to sell an ancestry because I would or would not buy it. If I think the package is good, then I do it. So Maybe a hidden question of yours is do you retail atelier when or are you planning on to. I don't yet there hardly any limitations for me or obstacles not to do it. So not to disclose too much but Robin and I are in in conversation. Fun fact though. Ace was the first retailer ever to sell a Chinese brand in Europe which was a bit more mid range, high end ish to watch out that Rob doesn't bite my head off again. Was the Chinese timekeeper, well also a French guy. So the French and Chinese they have a lot of thing going on. It's a French guy living in Asia, in China especially and he made a Chinese watch brand and that was with Chinese calibers as well. So I loved the fact that. Exactly what Rob said, spot on. We indeed in the west are to blame to believe that Asians can't make high end artisanal stuff that is beautiful. So that's why I bought in to that story back then. There are no reasons why not to work with ataewen and maybe feedback for brands that want to work with retailers. If you don't want to stay a direct to consumer brand, which is how atelier when started many brands is, what do you add to the portfolio of brands? Indeed. So maybe that answers your question. You obviously have a constellation of brands and you want to diminish the overlap in brands.

[C]

Yeah. On that note, I think it's time that we we wrap up. Interestingly, alon, although my article and my article was extremely positive about the watch, my own personal feelings about the aesthetic never really came into the equation. For me it was such an incredible product, so well made, so considered with so many nuances that I was thrilled by it. I said in the article I may have to buy one. And again, not because I think it's the most beautiful watch ever made or that I think it's particularly my style or that I particularly want to wear it, but because it's so good it deserves to be bought. And I think that if I were a retailer because as you said, like it's not really a watch for you per se, I would carry that in a heartbeat because there are so many things I could talk about, so many things I could get excited about. I just know that my taste is is not the be all and end all. It is not. I'm not the arbiter of taste, you know, think I have decent taste. I think everybody probably thinks they have decent taste and that's the whole point of it. So I know there's enough things to get excited about to sell that watch to people because it really stands out from the crowd. We could probably talk for another hour about many, many things that we noted down that were interesting discussion points, but we have run out of time, so we're going to wrap that one up. If you would like us to continue this discussion, then please do get in touch via the usual channels. You can contact us on the TRTS network. Of course, if you're not a member of the WhatsApp group, then you just need to reach out and ask to join and we'll add you. You can do that via Instagram herealtime.show or via the official website www.therealtime.show. we will be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.