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- [00:06]
Aloman Joseph
Watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time Show. With me, your friendly neighborhood jeweler, Aloman Joseph, and the friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds. We have a very, very special guest. This is a industry veteran. Before I say who it is, I want you guys to guess because, Rob, I have a surprise for you. We're going to record this episode in Flemish. Dus van AF Nus et neylands. What Dink Tutor van Ben.
- [00:37]
Benoit de Clerk
That's all I can say. You can try. This is bringing back memories, that's for sure.
- [00:42]
Aloman Joseph
So I'm very happy to have a Dutch Flemish speaker on the show.
- [00:45]
Rob Nudds
Welcome.
- [00:45]
Aloman Joseph
Benoit de Clerk, CEO of Zenith Watches.
- [00:49]
Benoit de Clerk
Welcome to you, Ben.
- [00:51]
Aloman Joseph
Would you tell us your amazing journey in the watchmaking industry?
- [00:56]
Benoit de Clerk
My journey started at Tag Heuer. This is where I got, you know, immersed into the watch industry. At that time, Tag Heuer was still owned by Christian Viros and the Philippe Champion and Luc Perman, they were in charge of the brand and Christian verons being the CEO. And I joined them. And this was probably 25, 26, around 25 years ago, give or take a year. And this is where I started. Then I've developed and opened up the Middle east for them, in for the brand based in Dubai, opened up their office in Dubai and then we expanded the whole business all over the region. And then I moved a year later. I stayed in Dubai, but I joined Richemont at that time. And at Richemont, my mission was to open up the Middle east for all the brands and at the same time to streamline the distribution in South America. So I was based in Geneva, I was working on South America, but as well I prepared the ground for the Middle East. A year later I opened up the subsidiary of Richemont in the Middle east for all the brands, including Cartier, Van Cleef, I mean, all the brands of the group. And this is where we started the development of Richemont in the Middle East. This lasted, I think around eight to nine years and no, seven years. And then I moved to the US within Richemont. They asked me to move from the Middle east to IWC as president. IWC in the us, where I started there as president. Then they had acquired Roger Dubuis, so I supervised Roger Dubuis there as well. And then eight years later, they asked me to go to Asia and to cover up IWC as the main brand, but as well Baume, Mercier and Roger Dubuis. So I was probably, and I'm quite sure the only manager doing three brands at the same Time and in the. In. In Asia, based in Hong Kong. I remember I had one office on the 13th floor which was IWC, had another office but another elevator on the 6th floor, another one on the 9th floor for. With another elevator. So that was very practical, but that was a good experience and great things. So we developed the brand there in Asia and then I was requested or strongly recommended to go back to Hu and to run to be the number two of Panerai working with Angelo Bonatti. At that time they didn't have any commercial structure as such. So I was there as the commercial director, I mean the chief commercial officer for a couple of years. Then Jean Marc Pontruet came on board from Roger Dubuis as CEO and I continued with him. Very, very good collaboration, great partnership and great business development that we did together the brand. And we took, really took the brand to a different dimension and that was great. That was great. And then I decided to join lvmh, another group LVMH and as the CEO of Zenit. And this is in a short but beautiful, beautiful years and fantastic journey so far. Is that okay? In terms of details, I mean this is, this is it. I mean, in a nutshell, I think.
- [04:19]
Rob Nudds
You did a pretty good job of condensing a quarter of a century's worth of experience into a bite sized nutshell. Yeah, it's incredible. I am really fascinated by one particular stint of that incredible career trajectory and that is when you were effectively running three brands at once. Now I work independently as a consultant with multiple brands and I know even behind the scenes as I am, it can sometimes be difficult to stay focused on each individual brand message and to throw oneself wholeheartedly into any project that comes your way. But how do you do it on a level that you were at really quite visible within the company, known to people running these three operations with, I mean, maybe not worlds apart messages, but different, different messages themselves. What's it like to have all of that in your head at once?
- [05:10]
Benoit de Clerk
Honestly was, was great, was a great mental exercise as well. But mental is not enough. When you're in the market you have to be very factual and material, you know. So what counted was the physical sales, you know, and the turnover coming in, the stock coming out and so on, so forth, and real sales. What helped me, I had first of all the trust of the top management at HQ level, you know, at H1 level. And that's really grateful for that. They trusted me. And secondly, I managed to get the trust of the team locally, the team of Bon Mercier or the team of Roger Dubuis and of course the lion's share of iwc, which we really, really, really pushed. And I had the trust and the confidence in all the CEOs at issue level, but as well on the team when it comes to materialistic and generating sales and all that. At that time all the brands were in an expanding mode and developing mode. So, you know, I have to admit, I'm not saying it was easy, but it's definitely easier to manage growth than to manage, you know, a slowdown. And the retailers and the partners we had, whether China or Hong Kong or Korea and the like, they knew obviously the three brands and we could have some good synergy. You see what I mean in terms of at the point of saying, listen, I take so much space for iwc, I will take so much space for that brand and so much space for that. And this is why it works, this is why it worked. And this is why Roger Dubuis and Bon Mercier were very happy with the performance, you know, because we used the cloud at that time, IWC was bigger and still bigger, by the way. I think so. But IWC was, you know, growing very fast and we took that speed to the other two and we spread that speed to the two other brands.
- [07:01]
Rob Nudds
Now you left that position almost 10 years ago, back in 2015, if I'm right. And I was going to ask, do you think that any major group these days would give such responsibility to one person to oversee three brands? But it sounds to me like it worked out very nicely from a group perspective. The fact that you were able to create that synergy and that cross pollination. Do you think it's something that more groups or even collectives of independence should consider doing themselves?
- [07:31]
Benoit de Clerk
You know, it depends on the situation. You know, at that time China was booming and recovering from, from a very bad SARS at that time. And it was coming out of that. I'm not talking Covid, I'm talking sars. And you know, at that time everything was, was doing very well and China was, was really going very, very fast. It worked, but not because of me. It worked because I had the trust number one and it worked because of the people with me. You know, I don't believe in the one man show and one man success. If someone succeeds, at least myself, if we did well, and I think we succeeded, and I'm saying we because I'm not alone, the brand succeeded and the, and the team succeeded. And therefore that's for me very important. I had the team on board with me, I mean, this makes a big difference. Would I do it again today? It all depends on circumstances. We all know that some markets are pulling more than others or not at all in some cases. So we know what's happening. And it depends again, it depends on people. It depends on the objectives and the potential. And these three and maybe more, but these three at least are paramount in the decision. Can it happen or can it not happen? Can it work? Cannot work. At that time it worked because I had the right team, I had people with myself. I still had a brand president of Bon Mercier in Hong Kong, but he reported to me, you see what I mean? And strategically we were hand in hand moving in and all that under my leadership. The same for Roger Dubuis. And it worked because the instructions were very clear from at level. This is the way the MOTU super and I, or the way we're going to make it work. They trusted me. I did not disappoint them and that was important for me.
- [09:19]
Rob Nudds
So let's talk about these markets which are pulling and those that are not pulling in 2024.
- [09:26]
Benoit de Clerk
The world has changed a lot in the last couple of years and especially in the last, I would say five to ten years. But, but, but, but five years and especially in the last year, you and I and all of us read the newspaper, we know what's happening. You know, we have wars at less than a mile away from here. You know, the market performance is very erratic in some places. I mean, there is a lot of uncertainties today and especially in the last, let's say 12 months. In the last 12 months you have a lot of geopolitical things that happened and are still happening that are affecting countries and people. And you know, when you have insecurity, it's not what luxury likes. Luxury likes security at all levels in countries, economically, security wise and the like. And today it's everything but that. I mean, we all read the newspaper, all watch tv and every day we have a new catastrophe happening. So this is not, this is not easy. I can't recall working in an experience so not erratic, but so fragmented in a way, you know, because if it goes well for somewhere, it goes well for 15 days. If it goes well, then it goes bad for two weeks, then it goes back for 10 days. And so, and so it's extremely volatile. And today volatility is, I'm not talking stock market here, but as well. But you know, I mean, geographically and politically it's crazy. It's very, it's very erratic.
- [11:08]
Rob Nudds
What do you do, practically speaking, when you're faced with such a tumultuous landscape, with so many changes happening, so many new things popping up that maybe even you haven't experienced before, what do you do to combat that, to keep the, the arrow going upwards?
- [11:25]
Benoit de Clerk
First of all is, you know, you have to be cautious, number one, because you know, as a CEO you have responsibilities towards the group and towards people you know, and you have to make sure to be able to manage both. For me, these are the two things that are important in terms of management. First of all, to be factual, number one, be cautious as well. Underestimate, you know, to be on the safe side. And you know what's important as well is to really understand what's happening. Because what you read and see might not be the reality. Flexibility is very important. We need to be agile, we need to be flexible and to be able to address these altogether. So I can tell you it doesn't make it easy. It's not a walk in the park, unfortunately. And it has not been a walk in the park. I have no shame to say that I said that to Alan last time. It's not a walk in the park, you know, it's complicated, but it's very interesting. And agility is the name of the game. But what I don't want is to overestimate and this doesn't work in an environment like that too. You have to be cautious, protect what we have, protect the goodwill, protect the people, protect everything we have. And then eventually if we over deliver, then that's something else. But I don't want to over promise and that's for me it's something very important at all levels, people, turnover, sales, distribution and so on, so forth.
- [12:53]
Rob Nudds
I've been saying for a couple of years now, if you can succeed in this watch market, with it being as erratic as it is, you can succeed in any watch market. But tell me about this caution. How does it manifest? Does it manifest in the type of watches you release or the volume of watches you release or the way you communicate these new watches and the brand itself? Is there some things now that maybe would have been very successful even five years ago in terms of communication that are just totally non starters for 2024?
- [13:24]
Benoit de Clerk
You know, I think it's a mix of both. You know, our customers are, you know, it's, it's a, it's a mix of both. It's a way of remaining flexible. You know, our customers are very smart people, you know, we're not wiser or smarter than them, you know, and we have, we're all human. We all have our, the same priorities, the same headaches and the same ambition. The thing is that, you know, we, we have to adapt to this, you know, to adapt to changes. And of course, you know, we have to be creative in a smart way and to be, make sure, to make sure that the team and the teams are aligned. That's very important. But it's a bit of mix, you know. Yes, we're reducing production. Yes, we have watches that we would love to launch now, but we postpone for year or thereafter. It's all, it's a mix of everything. Again, we have to be smartly aggressive or cautiously aggressive or, you know, it's a, it's a mix. It's not something that's. Again, it's not the, that the path of today's business is not a straight line. It is, it's, it's, it's, it's very windy. It can be very. Sometimes you have the wind in your face, sometimes you have it on your side. You know, it depends. And you have to adapt on all this, but overall it's working. But you have to be, you have to be, you have to pay attention. You have to be extra, extra, pay a lot of attention and be flexible and agile. I think in that moment, agility, flexibility is very important. And this is how to mobilize the team to make sure that they understand the mission. Because the mission, I can tell you the mission today, seven months after I joined, is not the same that when I joined, and I can tell you it's even much more different than 18 months ago. You see what I mean? And you know this yourself. So there's no magic here. It's cautious. Cautiousness and smartness is very important. Eligibility is very important.
- [15:21]
Aloman Joseph
So you respectfully said about protecting and being cautious and you started only seven months ago when we record this, you joined during LVMH watch weeks, which was January 2024. I wanted to know how did your image of Zenit match up with the actual brand identity when you joined the company?
- [15:46]
Benoit de Clerk
From the outside, I thought I knew Zenith and oh, my God, I've been in the watch industry for so long, I know what Zenith is all about. And of course I read, I talk and so on, so forth. But I was flabbergasted, positively is surprised by what Zenith is all about and by the, again, the authenticity. You know, the Le Locke, the manufacture we have in the local is amazing. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a treasure chest. You know, it's. It's unbelievable. There are so many things that I did not expect. I mean, I thought I knew. I have no shame to say that. In fact, I didn't know much in terms of wealth, of the brand, pedigree of the brand or image and all that. I mean, it's unbelievable. Unbelievable. So that was a discovery for me. So to answer specific question, I thought I knew, but in fact, I didn't know much because I'm still discovering. And even today, after seven months, I discover every day something new. And I love it.
- [16:51]
Rob Nudds
What are those discoveries that excite you more than any others? Is it unearthing an old product, an old movement, something you hadn't known about the brand's communications in the past? What is it that really gets you going? You know, we have.
- [17:04]
Benoit de Clerk
We have a heritage team in the manufacture. And this person, I mean, these people, they have so much to share. And when it comes to product, when it comes to history of the brand, every day there's something new, you know, we're preparing already, you know, to see what we're going to do in three, four years. And, you know, preparing the launch of three, four years. This is when you have to do it now at least, you know, if not more. And there's always something that we can refer to at the brand level to support what we're going to do in the future. And this is what I mean by heritage and wealth. Something very simple. I did not know that there was a water, not a water sprout, a water fountain or water. River. A river in the manufacture. I didn't know that water is not drinkable, you know, but it's not a well, you know, it's a river. There is a river in the manufacture. Across the whole manufacture, there is a small river there. I was hoping to exploit the water and sell the water, but the water is not drinkable. But. But it's interesting. And very few people know that. Very few people know that, that we have a river. Do we show that river in the factory visit tour? No, we don't. But it's funny. And this was used at that time, 100 years ago to cool off the machine and for an industrialization process. And that's amazing. And it's there. The water is there. So with the objective, and this is. I'm doing a segue here. The objective to remain very CSR oriented and to use. We change the water pipes. We use that water that we cannot use to drink. We use it for the restaurants for example, so now instead of using, you know, in Switzerland, our water is great. So instead of using a drinkable water and water that is clean, we use that water, which is very clean but not drinkable to use in our restrooms system. And this is a way to recycle and to use the water to make some savings on one hand. But secondly, most importantly, instead of that water going to waste, that water is crossing through our, is used to for the restrooms of the factory which is great with the manufacturer.
- [19:25]
Rob Nudds
I mean that is fascinating. I've never heard of that. I certainly wouldn't have ever guessed there was an actual river running through an esteemed watch manufacturer in Switzerland. But that has now leapt to the top of my bucket list of manufacturers to visit. I can't believe I've never been. But now I have an extra reason. I'm going to bring my kayak. Is it big enough for me to kayak on?
- [19:46]
Benoit de Clerk
No, but you have to go through, through natural walls, you know, natural rock walls. And then you see the water flow and all that. And they've put the pipe there with the, with, with tanks and all that. And we use that water for the restrooms. Again. It's, it's, it's fun, you know, but it's not part of the tour. By the way, if you go, you're welcome and waiting for you. But make sure you ask Billy to show you the water river. But again it's, it's meaningless in a way, but it's definitely a way of something that nobody knows. You see what I mean? And the same applies for product. The same applies for technicalities. The same applies for engineering. The same applies for advertising. The same applies for models that we use from the past and so on so forth. And we use this a lot for our business today.
- [20:30]
Rob Nudds
I mean it certainly has a lot of charm. It sounds more like Willy Wonka's chocolate factory than it does like a high end watch manufacturer. In many ways like a magical place where dreams can come true. Oh my God. Don't get me to, don't get me to write a press release. We can come back to the products in a moment. Because I'm completely product obsessed as a watchmaker. It's maybe no surprise, but I'm very interested in the segue that you maybe inadvertently kicked over to me about the fact that you're using this water in, in a responsible, sustainable way. How does sustainability factor into the current and future plans of Zenith as a manufacturer? What are your views on that as it's a burgeoning issue in the industry.
- [21:07]
Benoit de Clerk
You know, sustainability is very important. It's paramount for us. You know, it's something that we owe our children and we owe the future generation. And this is very important. And we cannot be. And we cannot be selfish. You know, we have to do something to protect the environment and do things that we can do to protect the environment. And this is one of the numerous things that we do in terms of CSR and sustainability and all that, because it's important. We have a role to play. And if everyone plays a small role, we'll be able to leave a better planet for the future generation. And, for example, we have an initiative that we call Horizon within our manufacturer, and it's something that's very important for us. For example, you know, we have a solar panel. Yes, everybody has solar panel, but not everybody has solar panel in a way, because it's expensive and the like. But this is a way to protect and use less energy. For example, our gifts that we gave at Watch and Wonders this year, they were all recycled textile from what we call from a small company, a small. A startup company called Nona Source. You know, so that's. That. That's one example. Let me think of maybe a second or a third one. For example, the employees are very engaged to that. You know, our employees that they are. It speaks to them, and they're important. They want to know about that. You know, for example, you know, in the months of October, we partner with Susan J. Common. I don't know if you're familiar with Susan J. Common there. It's a big association fighting against breast cancer, and we make a watch. The proceeds of the sales of Watch in the months of October goes directly to the association of Susan J. Coleman. We have an engagement, empowerment and the mentorizing program within our manufacture with all the team there to speak about that and to promote all this. And it's very important. These are the ones that come across my mind, but there are many others. So sustainability, csr, esg is very important. And. And we play a role in that. For example, the company cars that we have available for the staff, they're all electrical cars, for example, by choice. We have recently appointed the person in charge only in our committee, only for that, because it's important.
- [23:32]
Rob Nudds
This is a complete coincidence, and I promise I didn't do this in an attempt to curry any favor, but I actually have that exact textile bag that you're referring to that I received graciously from your colleagues during Watches and Wonders with me today. It is full of Watch paperwork. I use it all the time.
- [23:49]
Benoit de Clerk
And you know, the funny part is that bag technically should have gone to waste. You know, that, that, that, that material technically was supposed to go to waste. Garbage burns, I don't know. And we use that and you know, this is, this is what. And this is the pledge that we have internally when we can. Most our gifts have to be sustainable and it's important for us. And I'm happy you're using it. And a lot of people use it and they know it's nona source and on top of that that it's recycled and this material was used for. I don't want to give names, but famous brands within the group. Huh.
- [24:27]
Rob Nudds
It's also a very nice size. I use it as my go to shopping bag. To be honest. It's brilliant. It's great when brands do stuff like that because it's clever on multiple levels. It's not just using a material that otherwise would have gone to waste and making a commitment to more sustainable practices. But it's such a good product in itself. It speaks highly of the brand's values, its production values, and I'm talking about a bag. But it matters, you know, on, on these levels. Why would a brand ever give away something that sold its quality short? And I think to do that and to do it with a product that people will keep and use is wonderful because you've turned me into a walk in billboard. I'm walking around Dresden every day with a Zenith bag slung over my shoulder, not thinking about the fact that I'm advertising the brand, but I'm doing so and doing it with a product which has the brand's core values within it. And that's just very, very clever. Talking about products, we're getting back onto the products now. I'd like to know exactly how much you have to do with the product release plan several years in advance. So if you're excited by something you discover through the heritage teams research, do you take that to the designers and developers and say, hey look, we should do something with this or do they tend to come to you with existing ideas and then you help build the story around it? What's the process? How does it work?
- [25:43]
Benoit de Clerk
First of all, we all know it takes time, number one. Secondly, it has to be relevant and you know, but as well, it goes both ways. Of course I have crazy ideas and some ideas are undoable, you know, and they can be done, although I don't take no for an answer. So I challenge the team and they hate it and love it at the same time. But you know, it makes us think, you know, and we have a lot of working sessions and discussions and all that. And sometimes I send them WhatsApp at 1 o'clock at night because I've thought of something, we need to think of that and the like. But the point is that there's a lot of exchange number. This is very important. And as well there's nothing imposed, you know, as such. We try to make sure that we're relevant, that it makes sense, doable. That's very important because, you know, things that we would like to do, have to have to work, you know, we cannot. What we do is of prime quality in terms of design, but prime quality in terms of pro, in terms, in terms of movement as well. So this has to work. So I'd love to. If all my ideas were doable, this would have been great. But they're not, they're not. So we. It's important to have to maintain what's doable and not doable. Then I speak a lot to collectors and collectors are an important source of inspiration as well. Unfortunately not on a final, final product, but definitely as an inspiration. And believe it or not, Rob and Alan, journalists are very important as well because not because of what you do, but of the wealth in terms of knowledge that you have on brands, what has been done, not done, and so on, so forth and make your confidence. I learned a lot from journalists. You know, when I have, when I have time, when I sit with them for lunch, dinner or something or coffee and we discuss about anything but and something things come up and I discover a lot of things with journalists as well, because you guys have access to a lot and you know a lot. And the beauty with journalists and collectors, collectors, they want you to be successful and the journalists want you to be successful as well. They have no interest for you to put you down. And that's very important as well. So my source of energy, of inspiration comes first and primarily from the manufacture and the team and the team, the creative team that you have at the manufacture and what we have in terms of heritage, but as well from collectors and journalists.
- [28:10]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, it's very interesting to look at it in that way. Obviously collectors, they want you to keep making watches so they can buy them and they obviously have their personal desires of what they want. I've always thought journalists, they have a similar approach to it to collectors, but maybe a more industry wide desire for brands to do as well as brands can do and for brands to be their own brand. I think I get excited when I see a brand really leaning into what its speciality is, being innovative within that, of course, but also just knowing what its strength is and giving us that strength. Like repeatedly releasing models that you wouldn't want to buy from any other brand as much as you want to buy from, for example, Zenith. For me, I'm a huge fan of the El Primero. I am a chronograph obsessive. I was a chronograph specialist when I was still at the bench. That was the movement that just spoke to me the most. And so Zenith has always been the shining star, no pun intended, in my mind, when it comes to that specific complication. What I'd like to know, though, is how difficult is it for you to put aside your own feelings, even if those feelings have been embellished by things you've heard from journalists or heard from collectors, and stay the course when it comes to a product release strategy that, as you intimated before, it's obviously many, many years in the making, it must be so difficult to not get too excited and run away with yourself.
- [29:42]
Benoit de Clerk
That's a very good question, Rob. And, you know, it's, it's, it's. It's. I don't want to say it's the challenge, but it's the fun part as well, you know, because Zenit has a very strong sense of identity and heritage. You agree with me. And we know what we are, we know what our strengths are, and we know step two, through the collectors and the journalists as well, what people want. And that's very important. And this is the fun part, you know, is the risky part as well. That makes it fun.
- [30:15]
Rob Nudds
Going back momentarily to something you said just a moment ago, the undoable ideas. Now, I'm sure you're of the mindset that let's kick out an undoable idea and from it many great things will spring, even if that idea itself is impossible to manifest. But can you give us an example, maybe, if you're able to, of one of your undoable ideas that was just technically impossible, or have maybe financially preposterous to approach with a Zenith, something that you really wanted to do but then decided you couldn't do it?
- [30:49]
Benoit de Clerk
It's difficult to give an example, specific example, because there are numerous examples, you know, you know, we're at Zenith. We are. We have beautiful, mega complication, you know, physician and Columbus and all that. And these are beautiful. And of course, we still have strong demand on these. We produce very few quantities. And the challenge, and what I wanted is to Bring that to a second level and third level and the fourth level in terms of complication and all that. But I realized that it's a very expensive exercise, therefore probably undoable. And this is, you know, it's very difficult to have a specific thing because the idea is, you know, they're not necessarily all about specific to watchmaking as such. You know, it's. We have a department. They're fantastic. They're very productive and very creative as well. And automatically they know this you can do, Ben. Or if you want to invest 20 million in research and development, then you can do it, which I probably won't do. You see what I mean, at that stage? But so it's always a mix of what's doable. Not doable, but ideas. I mean, it's plenty of ideas. You know, this is very thin. No, no thin. Super tourbillon this and that, you know, especially the complication. Because on the complication, on the high complication, you can go a bit crazy. And this is the fun part. But don't forget, we are Zenith and we want to maintain the quality of our watches. We will not compromise quality to crazy, funky design, that's for sure.
- [32:19]
Rob Nudds
Let's just zero in for a second on one of the most memorable releases from this year's watches and wonders, and that was the Zenith Defy Extreme Diver in both black and blue dials. What was the thinking behind this release? What segment of the market were you speaking to? Which watches did you identify as direct competitors to this model that you thought this design would be able to pull away from other brands towards Zenith?
- [32:46]
Benoit de Clerk
You know that that model came through an inspiration of the Defi Revival. And the Defi Revival was built or was created like, I think 50 years ago. It was built 50 years ago. It was known to be named the Bolt. Like a very robust, very robust and tested all over the places. I'll give you an anecdote they used to produce that watch. The head of the manufacture had visitors from Japan, America and from all the places. And he said, and we have so much confidence in our watches that we knew they were very good quality. And one of the journalists say, how confident are you? And the guy, the person at that time was a little bit annoyed. He took watches that were on the bench being produced, being assembled. He threw them on the. He opened the window and threw them like 2, 3 fours, 2, 3 floors below. And they all went down. And he said, I don't need to check. I know the watch is working. And that's an anecdote but it's the reality. It's, it's a true story. It is a true story. So again, this is about quality and all that, you know. So the defy was known as the bolt and the defi, you know, was, was lacking a little bit of diverse approach and divers looked and this inspired us, that watch from 50 years ago inspired us to create and produce the Defy divers watch. And in terms of technically, this watch is working very, very well in terms of quality, in terms of performance and the like, it's perfect.
- [34:33]
Rob Nudds
Do you see it as a direct competitor to the Rolex Submariner, for example, because the price is relatively similar these days?
- [34:39]
Benoit de Clerk
Not really because, you know, we took the initiative to produce a very small quantity. Number one. Number one. Number two, the way, the way it's assembled, the way it's built, it's very complicated actually. You know, we didn't go for the easy way to produce it. The production of that, of that thing. It's, you know, it's very important. Then on top of that, you know, we have an open back case and it's a diver's watch. I don't know many, many brands or very few brands. I know very few brands that has an open glass back case for divers watch. Because we all know, you know, it's technically a potential leak or potential weakness in the conception and the buildup and the construction of that, of that case. But we have no fear. We did it, we pushed it and you know, we said that that watch is waterproof, like 500 meter or 600 meter. And we pushed it, you know, to 600 and we tested the watch for 900 meter. 900. Who goes 900 meter below sea level? But we wanted to push it to make sure that, you know, it will hold 600. And again, it's a sign and a proof of quality.
- [35:54]
Rob Nudds
I mean, it's a stunning case back and opening it up was a real joy for all of us to be able to see that movement, I'm sure. And yeah, it's, it's a great statement that it's water resistant to 600 and the rest, of course, that you tested it to. I wonder if you had any feedback from collectors or retailers who have bought this watch into stock as to who is most likely to buy it. Is it something that you think will open up a new audience to you because it is quite a striking piece and quite different from your more classic fare, or do you think it's something that would appeal more to an existing Zenith aficionado who maybe wants something A little bit off the beaten track from their favorite brand.
- [36:31]
Benoit de Clerk
You know, we just, we just launched it like a bit less than, I think, a month ago or maybe 40, 40 days ago. So it just hit the market 40, 40 days ago. So far, the response is, is very positive. We, in some markets, we are sold out because, again, you know, the production is, is limited intentionally. It's not numbered, but it's limited. And today, what we see, and this is no statement, but at least a feel of what we see in the market. The watch is very elegant, yet very technically very advanced. And this is what they like. You know, this is what they like. Then, you know, it comes with three straps. You know, it comes with metal strap, it comes with the rubber strap. And most importantly, again, talking about recyclability and sustainability, it comes with the recycled fishnet strap that you can put and expand over your wetsuit and all that. Believe it or not, this is. Might be unimportant for some, but it's very important for others. And this is, again, a sign of our commitment to sustainability. And again, today, I can tell you, we sell the watch for what we know. And it's a bit too early to have a complete assessment of our customer base in that particular diverse model. But it's definitely people who like the design because the design is striking. They love the fact that we inspired ourselves from a model, the defy revival of 50 years ago. And this makes a lot of sense. And then technically, it's a very advanced watch, the way it's assembled. Again, Zenit is for people in the know. You know, people buy today. Our customers at Zenit, they buy because they know the brand, they. They know the design and they know the movements. We are well known for the movement, but you're well known for the design as well. We don't take any shortcuts, that's for sure, when it comes to design and quality. And again, Zenith is not a small brand. It's not a mega brand either. It's a growing brand. But this is definitely something we're very proud of because we, we address the message. And the watches that we sell today are for people who are in the know. They know what, they know the brand. They know. Most of the time they come in our boutiques or to our retailers, partners, and they know exactly what they want. And they know 10 times more than our staff or the staff or partners.
- [39:01]
Rob Nudds
You know, I think it's a very special watch. I think it was a very brave release. And I must admit, when I first got it in My hand. I liked the watch very much, but I didn't feel it was what I expected from Zenith. And I think over time I've reassessed my opinion and I thought, well, I'm generally a bit of a stick in the mud when it comes to stuff like this and you know, maybe I'm a bit too conservative of what I expect from brands. But I like the way that the more I looked at the watch and the more I learned about it and the way that it's constructed, I started to see more of Zenith in it and therefore I think it's very, very successful. A nice addition to the catalog. And limited production is probably a smart move. But that leads me on to another question. A lot of brands are citing limited production now and I really advocate it for many reasons because I think it's a great way to just put a market, a model out into market and see how it performs without any long term commitment to produce it en masse. But how does that stack up to you as a strategy against limited editions? Because we've seen a bit of a pushback against hard limited models in the last year or so since the post Covid depression of the industry. What do you think about limit editions in general?
- [40:11]
Benoit de Clerk
For us, what's important is we want to remain true to our customers, number one. Number two, we are reducing as well production because what we want is to have more partnership with less partners. Because we have, in terms of distribution, we have our own boutiques. We have our boutiques and then you have our partners, the retailers, the partners. And these people are very important for us and we work hand in hand with them and we want more partnership with less partner. And this is very important for us and we go by that. Even if you have to sacrifice some quantities, it's okay. I'd rather, and this is exactly what I vouch for and what I push for is to have less quantity. And you know, it works to have less quantities and more partnership. It works. For those who understand the concept, it works and it goes a long way as well in terms of years of relationship and all that. So this is 1, 1, 1 part of the answer. The second question, the second part of the answer. What do I think of limited edition? It depends how you do it and how you do it and how you market it and at what price. You know, again, that's not what you want to hear. But it's true, you know, that our watches that we can do very, very special in very small quantities. And what is small is 5 small, 10 small, 20 small or 100 small quantities, you know, so that's why, for example, the diver, we didn't say it's limited and numbered, we said it's limited production and we do it intentionally. And I can tell you there are some markets today that are sold out in America. We're sold out of that divers now, whatever comes in the next out of production, the next couple of months will go to America, for example, and some markets, it's selling very well, but we're not sold out. So we will maintain, you know, the supply and demand there. But limited edition as such, you know, they can be very, they can be very tactical in a way. It's not good or bad, you know, it's, it's. They need a purpose, they need to serve a purpose. They need to serve an intention. What's the intention, what's the, what's, what's the reason? And the raison d'etre to do a limited edition, you know, they have to be tactical and sometimes it can strengthen a relationship with partners. Sometimes they can reinforce a strength that we have in the brand, for example, you know, Tourbillon, let's say, or something like that, you know, for example, we are very strong with our premier or chronograph and so on, so forth. So I think it's important if you define a purpose and a raison d'etre, that makes sense, but we don't want to do too many, that's for sure.
- [42:54]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I think the purpose is really the most important thing for me, for it to make sense. Although Zenith is an extremely experimental brand in itself, do you ever see the potential of collaborating with a retailer or a media partner or someone from another industry, for example, as a chance to try something really off the wall, really bizarre that maybe jars slightly with Zenith's normal fare, but with the collaboration aspect in tow, is able to be justified through that partner.
- [43:24]
Benoit de Clerk
Yeah, we do. Yes. Yes. Yeah, we already. And we will continue, you know, we have, you know, we have, we have a stronger, stronger relationship with Waco. Yeah. At, you know, at Revolution. He's done wonders with his communication. You have time and Tide in Australia and Hondinki in America. So again, we have had done it in the past. We will continue to do it, but we're not going to do it every year, for example, you know, it's, it's, it has to be again, it has to make sense and it has to be, to be important. For example, you know, I was telling you at the beginning of the conversation with Susan Jacob and you know, we are going to produce a watch with the pink dial and the sales in the month of October. All the proceeds of the sale of that month will go to Susan J. Common's Association. And it's a limited edition. It's something that's very proud to say, you know what, it's limited, it's pink, it has a reason, it has something behind it and it means a lot. And you know what? If I'm, I'm very, very happy and proud, if I can help someone, I don't need to know that someone thanks to that watch. Why not?
- [44:35]
Aloman Joseph
Going back to these amazing novelties this year, it shows what Senate has been doing for actually several years. The duality of an amazing back catalog in history and legacy versus the modernity and the contemporary design DNA that it has. Did you expect that when you entered the brand beginning of 2024 and will you continue that launch strategy?
- [45:03]
Benoit de Clerk
To be honest with you, I was astonished, flabbergasted by the way, how the history, the legacy, the heritage that you just mentioned is transposed or expressed 50, 60, 100 years afterwards, you know, and that's very important, you know, don't forget, you know, the company we're celebrating next year, 160 years. We're not the only one, you know, we're not the oldest watch manufacturer, that's for sure. But this is a proof or yeah, like a proof saying that we've been there for 160 years and we remain for another 160 years. And the fact that we managed to take older model, older design, that we can manage to modernize and bring them today to reality, this is amazing. And to answer your question, no, I didn't expect the brand to be that rich and that's powerful in terms of inspiration from the past to reenact something completely modern with the same philosophy and the same approach. The diver, for example, the divers watch is a mere example. The revival that we do every year is another example and the like.
- [46:18]
Aloman Joseph
So you say you do the revival every year. Can you tease us a bit? Give us a little scoop? What's planned for the 160th anniversary? What revival should we save up for?
- [46:29]
Benoit de Clerk
No, it's not the revival per se, you know, it's not something that we do every year, but it's something that we could do, you know, it's something that. The revival is something that we inspired ourselves. And last, I mean, this year we use that, that defi and that purpose. You see, what I mean, today the story is rich, you know, is important, and it has enough that character and create and it's there, you know, so we don't. We don't need to create something completely out of the box, basically.
- [47:03]
Aloman Joseph
I totally understand. Although we had amazing novelties in the Defi, as you beautifully said, and I misuse the words calling it Defi. The Pilot is another important collection for the brand. And what I love as a marketeer is that there is no other brand that is allowed to use the word pilot in English or pilot in French on the dial. Can you tell our dear listeners why that is, if they don't know the story already? Because it's actually an epic story.
- [47:38]
Benoit de Clerk
It is an epic story that again, I discovered when I joined and a week or two weeks after joining, when I sat with the Heritage team. And the story is very simple. I forgot the year exactly now, the exact year. But the founder of the company at that time, he registered the name Pilots. That means that he booked it, he reserved it, he registered it before even creating the Pilot watches. And that for me is a sign of avant gardists, of modernity and looking into the future. And then after two, three years later, he created the Pilot watches and he started commercializing, creating them and commercializing those watches. And this is amazing. And the fact that he has managed to register that this is priceless. You know, it's part, again, it's part of our heritage and part of our history. And this is, I can tell you, the reality is there again, the credibility is in there. We don't need to look and create stories. Everything is there.
- [48:47]
Rob Nudds
That is some incredible foresight there, not just in products, but in marketing. Just wonderful, wonderful stuff to hear. I generally, by the way, don't like ceramic watches that much, but I'm totally in love with the Pilot. Big date Flyback, the black ceramic one. I just think it's a gorgeous, gorgeous watch and I hope one day to add it to my collection. But on that note, on that positive note, on the fact you're probably going to be able to take €15,000 off me at some point. Let's end the show. Benoit, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate your candid answers and I am fascinated by the presence of that river in the manufacturer. So I've got more reason than usual to get out to Switzerland and have a look at it myself. If our listeners have any questions for Ben, then please get in touch with us via the usual channels. You can contact us via email, either Rob Alon or David at the Realtime show via the contact form on the website WW the Realtime show or via our dedicated instagram handle@therealtime show. We will be back soon with more top quality watch content. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.
- [49:52]
Aloman Joseph
SA.