B (2:22)

So tell us a bit about that. It's actually a very interesting project.

A (2:24)

Yes, it was. Yeah. It was started by Marie, I do not know her last name at the moment. And she had been working for Baum Mache for a long time and they decided to do a. A different take on sustainable watches, sustainability in products. And they decided to do a brand in which customers will be able to customize their watch pieces online. No animal products, low carbon footprint and also some basic entry level watches to have more response on the. On the demograph for what they were doing. And it was quite a nice and exciting project, but it was difficult as well. It's quite difficult to have a central located watch shop and to serve customers worldwide from Japan to Australia. And I think that the product is Quite nice, but not actually in line of the Huishamont Prix Hotel. It's just a different ballgame, you know, it's a different vibe, a different feel. I like the skateboard watches a lot that they did. We had a French skateboarder, Don hate his old decks. And in Switzerland they CNC cases from it and they repudiate Wolfman as well. Skateboard case. That was really. That was.

B (4:01)

Yeah, I. I love that project and I believe they integrated it back into Bon M as a sub family. I'm not quite sure if it's still alive, but it's a. It's a pity because I think it was a cool spin off. I don't think they should have called it Bone. I think they should have done a complete move brand.

A (4:22)

I think you're right because the same association people have with difficult names such as my own brand name, especially the old one, is they always refer to the identity of the other brand. Oh, it's bound. So they have this idea of baumatches and then they see the products completely something else. And it would have been. Might have been better. Like you mentioned, just a whole new brand.

B (4:52)

So we in intro to where you and I became friends. I knew you from school, but I've also met you at the Red Bar Crew. That meetups, that's where we actually hung out a lot. And you, hands down, had the most funky watches ever. Because I fell off my chair when I had the bearer. Yeah. Watch and the Tree of Life watch. And chapter three was the PSA Rutiques. Yes.

A (5:26)

And Magnolia dials.

B (5:28)

So I said where the F did you find these watches? And then you looked at me with a very strange face and said I meant them. So I said, yeah, stop kidding around. So I was blown away by your creativity. Currently you might not find these watches on Brendan's website, which is K N E I J N S b e r g-watchees.com Knanberg. Yes. You just said yourself it's a bit of a difficult watch. Why did you opt for that difficult watch? Because it's not your sermon.

A (6:10)

No, it's my grandmother's surname. And when I started Kranjsberg and Van Eyck, I was still married. We had this idea of making into a family business, not going straight into the names of me as ornament, which is my original, my given surname and my ex wife's earth was completely. I didn't sound nice. It was a real Dutch. So we decided to honor our grandmothers in the line of family. And that was for Me a nice thing to do because it has a bit of the philosophy in it, but for grand recognition or even remembering a name, it was a drama. When I was a couple of years ago and had to pronounce my name on stage, it was terrible. So I'm happy that I'm more focused on Knansberg now, which is easier for me as well. Kranzberg is just one thing. It's the rabbit mountain. It suits me. I like it. So I decided to stick to it. The very first name I ever thought of for my brand was Matl Maitland is the Greek farmer who first calculated the full cycle of the earth. And me, which is really my time obsession. And I. Well, I tried to go back to that name, but it's Knansberg for me now to keep to the story. Also with evolution going through a brand, do the nice. So.

B (8:04)

We can't find these pieces on your website right now, but something very exciting is up on your website because you've recently revamped your watch brand. Going solo because your wife and you have decided not to be a family anymore. Not on partners, not together, but taking care of the children. Yes, together.

A (8:30)

Yes.

B (8:31)

Well, as a watchman, that also meant you are out on your own again. And the creative that you are, you for me, not surprisingly, create an awesome watch. But people that don't know the backstory is you've honoring Constantine Huygens.

A (8:52)

Christian. Sorry, Edit.

B (8:57)

You. You're honoring Christian Huygens.

A (9:01)

Yeah.

B (9:03)

With an amazing watch because you created a tribute to the 250th anniversary of.

A (9:09)

The pattern does hand sprint.

B (9:12)

Yes. Neat. You make things simple. I have in my hands now five of your watches that you've launched recently that you're selling via your own website.

A (9:29)

Yes.

B (9:29)

You've tried a Kickstarter project, but you ran into some problems.

A (9:33)

I didn't read the small print. No.

B (9:36)

And I. I gave you heads up. Watch out. Because Space one also ran into problems with them. But you pivoted very nicely. The sales are ramping up.

A (9:48)

Yeah. It's amazing.

B (9:49)

You're making 350 watches. Yes.

A (9:52)

It's for one year. Yeah. It's the idea to have a commemorative watch. And maybe also nice for the story is that the. That the intentional idea came forth after you visited the vax. Honking. And we had a nice lunch in the city center of Schof and we shared our mutual interest and passion for the Hofens family. Because not only good Shamut also his brother and father were very important figures in our Dutch history. And yeah, I'm a creative guy so I hack his hundred idea to celebrate his legacy. And I started developing and I came up with the idea to make a day date watch with a small magnifying lens in the day pointer. And after quite some designing time and calculating, the result is in the hand and I'm very proud of it. It's. It's a bit more of a traditional watch. Like you mentioned, I'm a bit more out of the box designer. So if you compare it to my other work, this is more traditional, but it does have a small invention in it or intuitive idea to make. A inventive idea to make a nice piece look special.

B (11:19)

So in my hands I have.

A (11:23)

Four.

B (11:24)

Five of the same cases. Titanium?

A (11:26)

Yes.

B (11:26)

Either full titanium, satinated titanium with a gold plated bezel.

A (11:33)

It's anodized.

B (11:34)

Anodized?

A (11:34)

Yes.

B (11:35)

What did you anodize? Aluminum?

A (11:37)

No, no, no. The titanium is anodized.

B (11:39)

So you anodized the titanium?

A (11:41)

Yes.

B (11:42)

You have a polished version? Well, satin version of the bezel.

A (11:48)

The, the models you have now with the satin finish are the special models from the first 10 pieces. Okay. Which are not on mainstream silk. The piece where you have the, the polish bezel is the main piece and it has the titanium version, the two tone version and the full color gold.

B (12:07)

Version where the bezel is always polished.

A (12:10)

Bezel always polished. And the case always satin brushed finished. Now you've priced them at 1150 excluding VAT and shipment.

B (12:23)

ETA caliber?

A (12:25)

ETA caliber? Yeah.

B (12:26)

Which one?

A (12:27)

2834 or 36. But I modified it into 2835 0.

B (12:35)

Your module is your own?

A (12:36)

Yes. All components are Swiss. All components are Swiss? Yeah.

B (12:40)

Assembled by you in Holland.

A (12:41)

Assembled by me in Holland, yeah.

B (12:43)

So why they're crazy to price them that low?

A (12:47)

Well, actually, because I have a very good network. I'm able to source at the right places and I wanted to make a watch that is also a bit accessible. And to give myself a start, I want to not outprice myself that much. And I know it's a difficult market. You have told me lots of time. So especially now in this current state that we are, it's not easy, especially for somebody who's unknown as a watchmaker brand, to have a first piece up in. In 2500s would be a challenge. And I agree that it should be around 1950 as a retail piece. That will be very good place. But I'm not a marketing guy, I'm a watchmaker. I prefer to have watches on the wrists than in my safe. And it's Also a journey, maybe find out what I can do as a brand in certain places and just.

B (14:05)

You've named the model Eugenius. Yes. Tell us a bit about that, please.

A (14:13)

Eugenius is the Latin name of the surname of Christian Huygens. And Christian Huygens also used it as a pseudonym in writing with befriended scientists or other people. And his name in Latin means free spirit. And also in a way to not evoke trouble with other watch brands who have the name hyphens on the dial. And I think Ukraine uses way cooler. It's just a big wink to his legacy if you play with it in English. He's genius. New genius, new genius man. So it's a fun way to play with it, but it has nothing really to do with his genius actually. It just means free spirit, free mind. And in his time he needed a sort of free mind not to be able to be convicted by the church for calling out blasphemous stuff on. On planets. So the model is a nice tribute to his work.

B (15:36)

So let's talk about his work for those that are maybe less familiar with the. He's been nicknamed the Dutch Light. He's very important for watchmaking. Yes, because watch G. Yeah, but he did more.

A (15:53)

He did way more.

B (15:54)

So what is he known for as well? Dear Brett, he has a few major.

A (16:00)

Accomplishments mostly in mathematics. Calculating chance is one of his big works. We did a whole book on how to calculate chance and what kind of mathematical laws are involved in that. We did a book on optics which is one of the main reference of the watch small mini lens in the day pointer. And optics really changed a lot for the world with telescopes and even microscopes. And the other thing that he is also known for is his work on music. He did a extensive study on the different octanas on unheard of piano. I don't know the exact name right now. It's unreal piano, but it's a very instrument and he wrote a book on extraterrestrial life. He did a very, very important work on another calculating mathematical problem. You have to. I'll get back to you on that piece. And the most well known for watchmakers watch geeks are the Bendyman law like you mentioned. And the hairspray of course is something that we still use today. It's like the Egyptian jar that they invented, the cherry Egyptian invention. It's about 6,000 year old. It's unchanged, still the same. We still sit on it. And for the hatchling it's a bit of the same. It didn't really change in the past 350 years as all mechanical watches, with the exception of the high end pieces with special escapements, all have a balance spring and it's a hairspring that drives the regulated mortgage.

B (18:14)

And about planets, what did you discover?

A (18:18)

Yeah. Pardon me? Yeah, he didn't discover Saturn.

B (18:22)

No.

A (18:22)

But proved that it was a ringed planet. Yeah. Because there were doubts about if it even was a planet or not.

B (18:30)

Yeah.

A (18:31)

And with his lenses and with all his works in science, he proved that it was a ringed planet. And later he also discovered the first moon of Saturn. And actually from the first publication of the discovery of Saturn, he became really big, who became one of the first members of the Society of Science.

B (18:58)

In.

A (18:59)

Paris and in London. So, yeah, he had reputation. He was like the modern rock star with his hair and flamboyant speech.

B (19:13)

He also corresponded with Newton and his likes, didn't he?

A (19:18)

Yes, he did. Yeah. And.

B (19:20)

But he was so insecure, he would use his surname, like you said.

A (19:23)

Yeah.

B (19:24)

But his nickname.

A (19:25)

It was also paramount for the mill. So, like, we all send watches today. Everybody who knows this, when you have a watch and send it somewhere, the creeps start coming in, especially when you hand it over, put away. It's like he had sent him. So he would use his pseudonyms or if his letters would get stolen. They didn't, because if you write something that wasn't true before he proved it scientifically, they couldn't argue with it. That wasn't me. So, yeah, it was. It was a bit paranoid, but way too, way too clever. Nano got married, had lots of attention because he lost his.

B (20:06)

And so you actually recommend me to read the book Dutch, like. Yeah, about his life, which I found very interesting. Is what I didn't know about the lenses that you just referred to. The Dutch were very important in that.

A (20:23)

Yeah, they were lenscrafters.

B (20:25)

Yeah. And that got on my radar because Spinoza was also.

A (20:35)

The scout.

B (20:36)

The scout David.

A (20:37)

Yeah.

B (20:38)

Apparently most of them also died because they would inhale the dust. Yeah. And that would go into the lungs. Yeah.

A (20:46)

So that was.

B (20:46)

That was interesting. So using that as a segue, looking at your watch right now, it. It might seem as a simple watch, we have an hour hand, a minute hand, the seconds hand, a date window, and that's something. We have a fort and with a huge magnifying glass and we see seven icons. Walk us through what we see on the dial.

A (21:15)

Okay. So I have chosen the symbols for the day indication. So if you look at the dial at 12 o', clock, we start with Saturn, Saturday is Saturn's day. Due to the movement, the day pointer rotates anticlockwise. So the next step on the left side is the sun, just a small symbol for the sun. And then next is the moon, which are quite recognizable for all. And then on Thursday we start with an arrow symbol. And an arrow symbol or spear symbol is the symbol for the K or Mars, which was the God of war. And on Wednesday we have a room for Bodon and it's Wodon's day. Wednesday and on Thursday we have Thor, the hammer of the Thursday and Friday we have Freya. And I've made a combination between the Latin and the Germanic symbols and they all have this universal connection with each other. And we all call Saturday and Saturday in Western Europe, I mean Indonesia, it's different because they have a different time and Italian origin. And I decided to make a mixture of the Latin and the German. Germanic, actually I have to say influence, because hyphens have that same influence as well. Latin is the scientific language and Dutch and Germanic is the local, the culture language. And to combine those two was for me something personal. Also very nice to see because it's in line with my own ideas and interests. And it is something nice to a story. It's really nice to have stories behind the base because we all have stories on our days. Do you have a favorite day?

B (23:31)

Just changes every day. Every day. I love every day.

A (23:34)

Good. I like that. I love every day.

B (23:36)

I'm excited about every day. But it might be Saturday.

A (23:43)

Yeah, okay.

B (23:44)

The Shabbat. Yeah.

A (23:46)

The rest is the resting day.

B (23:48)

I don't have a faith. Yeah, no, I think it's ingenious what you did. I'm racking my brain for two things because I don't know any watch currently on the market that pays tribute to.

A (24:05)

You.

B (24:06)

Said I'm choosing who heading this because of probable IP issues, but as far as I know, nobody does it. If I'm not mistaken, Christian van der Cloud, the brand.

A (24:19)

Yeah.

B (24:20)

Made one off watch also for this anniversary year. I haven't seen it though, to be honest. I know the brand names are registered this with sense in all different shapes of spellings with a Y with an ij.

A (24:40)

You looked into that?

B (24:41)

Yes. So that's the name now. Very ingenious of you. As far as I know, you technically created a day cat ladder. A jumping daycan.

A (24:55)

Yeah.

B (24:56)

Because it's almost retrograde. Ish jumps beautifully. And 12 o' clock at night. Yeah, it makes a big jump. I saw that when I manipulated the crab yeah. You've created 14 increments.

A (25:13)

That's from the basic movement. Yes. Yeah.

B (25:15)

So you did from the basic movement.

A (25:17)

14 increments. Yeah.

B (25:18)

But it jumps beautifully. Like a retrograde hand. So it, it jumps basically two slots.

A (25:27)

Yes. Yes.

B (25:28)

The.

A (25:28)

The. The main driving spring in the date day setting wheel has a spring in it that builds up tension and once it released, the angular movement and the force of the spring makes sure that it does two steps. Yeah. So it whacks the whole disc two steps and then it's secured by the glip.

B (25:54)

But on the normal day, date functions, because this is technically pointer date, what you've d. What you've done, it goes clockwise normally. No, always counter.

A (26:06)

Always counter. It's hidden behind the dial.

B (26:09)

So it's reverse.

A (26:10)

So it's. It's reversed. Because the, the one way the date is moving, the other way is the day. Because they are driven from the same wheel. Yeah.

B (26:21)

I, I love what you did. I love how you refer to all the days and how you linked it to the old Latin and metaphorical referrals. So a bit of specs for our dear listeners. 40 millimeters case thickness. 10.45. Apparently nowadays we need to say with or without glass, but you know what? Rob's and my stance is on it. A watch without a glass is worth nothing. So we just refer always to thickness for the complete thing. 20 millimeters lug width. For your strap, it comes with different straps here. What's the standard strap on the.

A (27:00)

We have two. Two straps. We have the canvas on leather strap with the titanium pin buckle and we have the calf leather black strap with white stitching titanium buckle as well.

B (27:12)

It's. You choose on checkout or you get both.

A (27:14)

You get both.

B (27:15)

Wow.

A (27:16)

Wow, wow.

B (27:16)

I just priced two straps. You're really a bad entrepreneur.

A (27:20)

I am, I am.

B (27:21)

No, I'm kidding. I am.

A (27:22)

But I love swatches. And now, I mean I was quite looking into it and I'm teaching family house to run. I have a company to run as well and to make watches. I was thinking, okay, I would prefer to have people just decide when they receive it and have two straps is just nice for. For this watch.

B (27:44)

A true watch nerd catering to watch nerds lug to lug 48 and a quarter. The lugs bend down so it sits beautifully on the wrist. Brendan, congrats. Five boxes when approved. I see you've gave it an anti glare coating on the domed crystal sapphire case. Back is sapphire screwed in back cakes. Well done. I see you've numbered every Limited edition. Individually.

A (28:15)

Yep. Yeah.

B (28:18)

So you really thought of collectors back in your mind.

A (28:25)

This is a watch to celebrate something special in watchmaking. And I've tried to take all certain aspects of Christian Halfens into this watch. The titanium case from the moon of titanium. Saturn on 12. The lens. I mean, for me it would be really nice to have all this caveman and say, hey, that's for the big boys. This is a traditional piece with some heritage from history.

B (28:54)

I'm quite sure this will sell out. What's next for you and your brand, Knansberg? Will there be a new. Are you reviving all the. You're older.

A (29:11)

I would really. I would really like to do the Tree of Life in the RE edition. And I started that almost a decade ago in honor of my. My kids and lots of people really like the watch. It is also a bit of special watch, but the size is not really so comfortable.

B (29:28)

Was a rectangular watch.

A (29:30)

Rectangular watch. Yeah.

B (29:31)

Rather big.

A (29:32)

Rather big. Thick. Especially thick. So I've worked on it to reduce it in size to 3611 millimeter module watch again. And just for my personal. That would be my next step. And if your training is really continuous like this, which I. I hope and expect also a bit. I would like to do a full year calendar. Not a perpetual calendar, but an angle calendar and maybe with chronograph together. That will be really nice. Like the old pocket watches you have with. With the moon phase and the day and the month and the year, or not the year, but that's. That are really nice inspirational pieces just.

B (30:19)

To finish off the Tree of Life watch. What was unique in complication there? Please explain.

A (30:26)

There's also an annual calendar, but it has a tree with cutout leaves in a mop dial and it has a soft dial with colors on it. So when you wear this watch, the tree changes color as per season. And it rotates the disc behind the tree to show all the leaves changing colors from light green to dark green full year round. So that's also a bit of a family thing. We all have seasons in our lives. The big summers of daddies and winters of grandfathers and springs of students, guys running around in the city. That will be my next step. Going to the first one, Actio, the bear watch. Yes, it's a very nice piece, but I want to do that in rose gold. But so just for just 10 pieces in rose gold.

B (31:31)

No, you need to Google that. It's literally a case that has ears on the 11 o' clock and 1 o' clock position. Yeah. And it's a round case. It's bonkers.

A (31:44)

So it has an animated face.

B (31:46)

How did you come up with the idea?

A (31:48)

Did you ever ask an 8 year old to draw your watch?

B (31:52)

What did your kids make it?

A (31:54)

The baseline. I'm just like, I had this tree of life thing going on and it was out there and I was getting feedback and stuff like that. And I was thinking, okay, what's my next watch will be? And I asked Apollonia, my oldest, said, would you like to draw me a watch? And she drew a little bear. And then I thought, what's the addition to the bear? And then I looked at her face.

B (32:18)

It's.

A (32:18)

Yeah, she just has to wink at you and stick her tongue out. Just make fun of time, which is really nice. Nice in this watch it's playful.

B (32:29)

And what happens at the left eye?

A (32:32)

The left eye gives you a wink. So her face is normally with open eyes and close enough. And every 45 minutes the cycle rotates one of the discs and then she sticks out her tongue and the next cycle she gives you a wink and then she pulls back her tongue and her eye goes back to normal again. And that rotates the older. So if you give this to your daughter and she goes out and at 12 o' clock she's like, oh, I will go home. Someone's sticking out her tongue, giving me the weave.

B (33:06)

You are a bit of masters of modules.

A (33:10)

I like modules. Yes, yes. It's like a small canvas if you have all the colors and all the tools to be able to convert an idea into a mechanical display. A module is very convenient because I don't have to think about the main driving mechanism who gives me the deviation of the 12 hour rotation and I can calculate on that making something integrated, that's next level.

B (33:46)

To finish off your portfolio piece. Rhotic. Talk us about that.

A (34:00)

I've always fancied pocket watches with the enamel paintings on it. And also a bit of the erotica paintings are quite famous from a couple hundred years ago. It was like the men's in the cigar room hanging out and showing off the new pieces. And that got me inspired a bit. And I got in contact with a Hungarian memo master, Paul Thot and he had this abdico dials which were really nice. And I contacted him and I asked, would you like do a project with me? Can you. Can you make me a dial? He said sure. And then we started to design back and forth. And his drawings are all handmade. He's a real fine artist, a master. He makes paintings that are. While you can just put them in the Rijksmuseum and people will really enjoy it. And the first one is the black edition and I had this idea to put black diamonds on the dial to have a nice integrated pink colors and a nice flower and a couple making walk in the center because our most precious B is our family time. And our family comes both out of the ones we love or care for. And I made two other ones that because I had to find a way to make it even better because I have trouble with stones which is, you know, it's a challenge. And the second two are more traditional, are more like inspired by Pompeii with the big frescoes and then that you have. It's absolutely amazing. And I made one in yellow with a yellow flower and one in blue with nice blue flower and then a champagne colored. And I'm working on the next one at a contact again and this time without just to have a nice clean. It's also a bit of a passion project because I like it and I was thinking, oh, I have very nice watches now and sometimes I wear them personally but it's, it's, it's a collectible thing as well. You really have to be into it. The craftsmanship is outstanding. I mean he uses one haired brushes, makes funny videos and loop. You probably might see a pimple on somebody's butt somewhere. So yeah, that's the, that's the more side line I'm trying to keep on going. But for now it's full on for Eugenius. I'm working very hard to get all the orders in place, to get all the details sorted out. It's lots of work. Everybody like women before shipping watches. It's a challenge. So I'm starting production end of August and then mid September, end of September I'll be shipping the watches. And that will be very nice for me to get some more time to think to the next project, see what I can do. So I'm really looking forward to that.

B (37:16)

You spoke about challenges as an entrepreneur. What challenges or bottlenecks do you encounter that you find most difficult?

A (37:28)

Exposure as an entrepreneur. And you start with a new product or a new brand or new website. It takes so much time to mail, email, contact, call, shout, whistle, scream at people to get exposure. And it's very important if you have the nicest watch and nobody sees that stuff, nobody's familiar with your work and they won't buy it. So that's for me it's now it's a big challenge to keep that go as well because If I move my attention to making watches, it's one. I have to sit on the bench, be dedicated and concentrate. I can't pick up my phone. I can, but that's not what I want to. Just want to watch and then go on for the next.

B (38:21)

Because you assemble them.

A (38:23)

Yes.

B (38:23)

You don't outsource it?

A (38:24)

No, no, no, no, no. I have to do the modification on the movement. No, I mean that because I have this background in production for over 15 years and I'm able to do a good logistic run. I want to do that as well. I like that. That's part of my job. But it's a challenge to get the exposure, I think for every brand always. And movements are also always a challenge. Or then this weekend and hopefully there will be as I. As I expect. Because it's not easy to get fresh movements straight out of the factory. ETA won't sell you nothing. Sellita would start at a thousand pieces. So you have to do with. With the subcontractors and the suppliers. Usually it's new old stock and you have to check all movements, make sure that the oil is not dried out or there's any damage on overhaul or whatever. And that's. That's a difficulty. And then later on. The quality control is also something that is very labor intensive. If you have an extended quality control to make sure that a day date function will operate, you have to let it run for a whole week. I want to make sure that it's a full cycle and preferably two. One on the cycloid and just moving on automatic wrist machine and one half off just to make sure it runs reserve and one back on the machine to make sure it builds up power. Reserve with the automatic device and you have two weeks of quality control. And that's for 150 watches. Quite some work.

B (40:21)

Hence I say your price is too low. Going back, going back on your two obstacles and thank you for sharing and being so frank. So to our fellow colleagues and aspiring watchmakers or watch brand owners. You've done well because swinging straight out of you launched the watch. You got monochrome right. And review. You had deer patrol. You're here on the real time show. Then you really made it. Did make it on trt. Yes, you made it.

A (41:03)

I did. Like a sweaty ass, bro.

B (41:07)

Now on a serious note, what, what, what do you give as an advice to fellow colleagues that are listening to go about? What are. What are critical success factors for you in getting that PR.

A (41:27)

Straight two to yourself? Design what you like first, make what you one first and then second, add it to the customer. We can tell your story best if you're 100% engaged with it. And if people don't make stuff they really like themselves. People always noticed somewhere I made this really nice car, but the motor is now I just do what you want from your own point of view. Yes, you can take all the points of customers into consideration, but stick to what you want. That's very important for me. And second, make sure that you are able to deliver the quality that you sell to them. Make sure that you can rotate the crown 100 times. Because people do that. You just have to make sure. That's one thing that Holker Dagman told me that's also watchmaker and a mentor. That everything you do with complications or with buttons, it has to be idiot proof. It's like a chair in Ikea. You have to test it a thousand times sitting on it. And that's very important. If you have a chronograph model that you really like. So it has to just, you know, click clock, click, clack, click, clack, click. You have to be able to do that. It has to be well made. There are the two main things for me, the quality and the personal conception.

B (43:04)

But that's brand vision, strategy and execution. So to get the exposure, what did you do? And you didn't mention that in your small marketing budget that you technically don't have, you sponsored a Red Bar crew evening that I unfortunately had to miss in Amsterdam. How was that for you? Was it worthwhile as a brand? And you're not that young as a brand. But let's see. Let's say you reset the brand and it's semi new.

A (43:33)

Yeah.

B (43:34)

Was it interesting for you to do that?

A (43:37)

Yeah. Yeah, it was.

B (43:40)

Wow.

A (43:43)

Because it put me into a learning curve.

B (43:46)

What did you learn?

A (43:49)

That it takes a lot of time and that you have to be meticulous about it. And the questions you get back really makes me look back at my story. Even better. If there are unanswered questions from your marketing from customers asking just like you mentioned, where can I pick my color on the website? I want. I don't want that things that I got from feedback. Really. Okay. I need to put more thought and more time in that pre process really thinking. So that got me learning on that side for watchmaking and designing. I can still learn a lot. Of course we can grow old gray and still not learned enough. But for the other side of the industry was just a small kid with some ideas. You know, it's It's. I had this funny, funny anecdote, if I may tell you. When I had my first training in Switzerland at Breitling Engine we went into the workshop place where we had the training and you had this tunnel going to the other building. And the trainer Jean Marc said okay, oh, now we don't do the French part. The workshop they almost always spoke German locals convention and resist. But in the marketing side and French it was like a complete different world. And I'm still thinking about that moment is like going through funnel and saying okay, we have one watch world going on on this side of the building, different world on that side of the building. And for me now as a brand owner I have to buy the two. And I can, I can not only be the watchmaker which I am for most of the park, so I hired a few smart guys and really enthusiastic guys to do the website for me and stuff because I'm not a go around. And that is the thing that I'm really learning now a lot from the other side is okay, what's the expectation of a customer? What kind of problems can he experience? What's he reading? Is it clear enough?

B (45:57)

Should I.

A (45:58)

That is something that's really, that's helping me now moving along as a watch brand. Interesting.

B (46:05)

I actually walk that tunnel in Grenchen as well Br so I can physically envision what you're talking about and the clash of worlds of those in an ivory tower and those that are with the feet on the ground actually doing the manual labor. Yeah. Do you think there's a dissonance in the watch industry between marketing and the real world?

A (46:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the, the from my point of view the best managers you have are the co working managers. And that's where in the watch industry the first things already start to be misplaced. We have a nice manager that is good in business skills but doesn't know watchmaking starts running at work. Shock. It will derail pretty fast because it's such specific thing. But the same thing goes around as well. If you put a watchmaker who has nice ideas into marketing team probably will go down south pretty fast. It will be nice if they will correlate more and understand better. But it's marketing I think is different different thing. And most the watchmaker are very meticulous. They want to be exact. No, it's calculated, it's math. But marketing is also feeling and being sensitive and trying to see what's new, what's going on. And you can have one idea now that Everybody's in the next six months it can be gone, it can just be. So yeah there are two different worlds going on this a very large gap in between it and I think that now maybe it's starting to evolve bit more differently. Why? Because the big brands are also starting to do major campaigns in house. The marketing PR world's also changing due to AI and 15 years ago we would take a million dollar marketing budget and spend it on marketing campaign made by a huge agency like a prop agency with the stuff to his name. Now they are thinking okay let's move half the budget into our own thing and let's hire someone permanently because then we can just keep feeding and it's next door, we can just walk up. So that's the thing that's changing and helping watchmakers watch brands to understand the marketing better and social media, I mean you can have a teenager out campaign you on TikTok with a bit of products and you are the. I have the best no skills on this. So it's a challenge. It's a real, it's a real challenge.

B (48:56)

Have you ever tried to sell your.

A (49:00)

Either idea or finishball?

B (49:04)

So either the tree of life or the bear or the. Well the Pierce Aerotics are less innovative because it's three, 400 years old. But yeah, but, but we can state that these three watches. So the Ukrainians, the tree of life, what's the bear called? Yeah the Altio are very unique. Have you tried to sell them?

A (49:27)

No, I've thought about it and I've been in conversation with maybe two other guys in the past but it was more joint effort and as well here's the same problem again. I've noticed that also in my professional career as a bench watchmaker, eyes on the bench is dangerous. If you want to do brands. Spending six to eight hours looking down at your work does not show you the world. You have to look out from behind your bench and see what's going on. So that's a, that's the thing that I also am discovering know in which part will I still be the watchmaker? And it starts continuing because my expertise might be needed somewhere else and I can hire a watchmaker who can do the assembly and quality control because you have to go to events and you have to go there and that's, that's a question mark.

B (50:24)

Now let me play devil's advocate here. I've written an article that watch brand should more behave like tech startups. Maybe it has aired when this episode comes out. Maybe will be after this episode we, you know, we don't air episodes chronologically to when recording them and that O I've written more than a year almost ago now. My devil's advocate role here is twofold. One Brendan, a brand comes to you and says I want to buy the tree of life module. Not the brand, nothing, just the ip. Will you sell it?

A (51:05)

I will. Why? Because then I'll be able to enjoy the tree of life idea in other watches as well. It's like a good painting. It needs to be on someone's wall, not in my head or in my workshop only. Of course we need to talk about all different kind of aspects in a way but business wise. Yes.

B (51:38)

Does this analogy fly for all your formals and ips? Basically. So does this I this analogy goes every model you'll say yes.

A (51:51)

Yeah, yeah.

B (51:52)

What happens if somebody comes along and they won? Brandon, they want Brendan, she's beautiful exclusively. So they'll. They'll buy Knansberg. Kill K. Don't use any of your old watches and say Breslin, we want.

A (52:12)

You to develop now you're heard English and develop.

B (52:19)

That's what happens in the tech sector, right?

A (52:21)

Yeah.

B (52:21)

Often big brands, either the people behind the new startup or they do want the intellectual property and lock in people onto their company like Google or Meta or whomever. Would you do it?

A (52:39)

That would be a question. Depending on the philosophy of the new owners.

B (52:46)

Comes back and they'll look you up in bubble Sheikh.

A (52:54)

It's a difficult question. Oh, one of my friends. Yeah, I probably would. Yeah, I probably would. Yeah.

B (53:00)

So that begs the question, why do you create these watches? Because you have the creativity in your head and needs to come out. It's an heritage and legacy and you have to make it because you want it to be out there.

A (53:13)

I think it now is the combination of both and third factor also I want to be an inspiration to students. You know, I know that building a business, taking chances risks fall in my face. Everybody can such a business. But I think that students need to see someone who's taking that risk and is willing to go out there and take that risk because that will be an inspiration. Even if I fail, it will be an inspiration. I mean probably learned more from gentlemen I've met along the way. We're doing the things not like they were supposed to do because then I know this then from all the guys who are doing the things right. So for me that's also always a driving for my brand also for my kids. I mean with this watch now the Eugenius I'm telling my teenage daughter that in a couple of months she has a job packing watches, putting on stickers just to show that you can get an idea. You have to put your work and your talents to it but you can convert it in something real. Something on your wrist, something on your wall, something to drive in. It just takes that dedication. And even if something if someone or a company comes along and would ask me the question okay, I love your work and I want it completely for my brand so I'm going to kill everything I would still be convinced that they would do that because they want their idea into their brand. They just damn jealous that I raised them so I would still do it and say to my kids that listen, it's not like I'm selling out or something. I just got this opportunity to grow and learn a bit more. And it's not forever because I have creativity and I can do something new again. I can maybe completely different something else but I can remake something. So that's my personal idea on that part. It would be nice actually to maybe even learn more for the other side of the business through that way and then becoming whack or full skill in the third project I do in the future. So I don't know but I think it's a good question. It's a valid question that every maker should ask himself. Are you too attached to your own work to sell it or do you make your work to sell or is it something in between because if you just make it free out you will rarely lush posh luxury piece with nice gemstones and just me would make for for nobody else but this is a watch that I would also like to make for for guys like us who have this connection with time like a bit of storytelling and like quality as well and if someone comes along the next one is going to be without transpar but it's going to be Listen I'm still going to say you have to mention my name.

B (56:29)

I love the fact that you mentioned your students and that you want to be a mentor and an example to them. The foxholes has created actually some grandma the ones that come to mind brothers.

A (56:45)

I think both attendants one of the.

B (56:48)

Attendance hun off yeah maybe you want to highlight a few more but my question is I have you in those 67 years you're at school seeing some gems I think one is in the making is my ex colleague that's at right now.

A (57:06)

Yeah worth it as well.

B (57:08)

I think he'll make it.

A (57:09)

Yeah yeah he already got a certificate from yeah no I think there are some that are really out there going to be next. I have a former student, Tim Swartecourt and Billeman Hart, who's a couple and they just started making their own watches and they do hand painted dials with traditional paints and they are also developing their own cases because Tim is now doing education on fine mechanics. And Tim is the guy who made a Dutch clock with skate stickers like.

B (57:51)

We have on.

A (57:53)

Go around when every time hook strikes for an hour and the. The skater figurines would start dancing on ice. So he has this, this technical and creative mind which is really inspiring to see. So hopefully then we'll go big. It will be a long journey as well. But they have a bit more of a. Of an idea that they will be able to make stuff, add feedback, create new, try and grow straight out of soul now.

B (58:27)

Wow. On international level, well, for watchmakers average, how is the output of, of Dutch watchmakers global level increase? We do, we partake on the high level. Such a small country.

A (58:54)

Yeah, but in volume. No, I mean we have just one school. So if you do 20 students a year with a degree, it's a lot. But in, in quality we have lots of people who grow on to becoming atelier managers, really luxury professionals across the board. Yeah.

B (59:15)

And do you think we have a lot of Dutch watchwear on average for our country of 80 million inhabitants on the automoje side of things, the higher side of things.

A (59:27)

Yeah, I think. Yeah. No, not actually. Now I have to rephrase that. If we have two really, maybe three really high end, then it will be. But that's like. Do you think you should have more? We could have more. Yes, we could, we could.

B (59:47)

Why don't we.

A (59:49)

Visibility again. Visibility. The school needs to have more visibility because also that is a numbers game. I use the reference with the cook school a lot. Not every cook that comes from school will become Michelin. Yep, only a few. But the more students they have, the more Michelin chefs they will have. So we also need to have more students. Some students will be very fine doing the basic technical service which is very, very much needed. I mean we could do some more of that already and then a small portion would grow on being a bit more of a high level watchmaker, clock maker who would do the luxury brand service and more skilled. And then we'd have the small percentages which really start their own or either workshop or brand. And from that it becomes a long, long journey.

B (61:00)

Brendan, I want to thank you.

A (61:01)

Thank you, Al.

B (61:03)

Lovely conversation.

A (61:04)

Yes, indeed.

B (61:05)

I wish you the best of luck and I know you'll succeed. Keep that creativity flowing, please.

A (61:12)

Thanks, I will.

B (61:14)

For dear listeners that want to become an apprentice or pupil, we can find the school which is called Foxhole. Could foreigners join the school? Is it all Dutch?

A (61:27)

Foreign schedule. Join the curses. The foreigners can join the commercial site which is one day a week on training.

B (61:37)

So you offer courses?

A (61:38)

Yeah.

B (61:39)

That are private.

A (61:41)

Yeah.

B (61:41)

And if you want to do the three or four year education is Dutch.

A (61:45)

It's Dutch. Yes. We're still working on the English side, but that's due to the Dutch system. A challenge.

B (61:54)

Spelled V A K S C H double O L C H S C H Sorry. O O N H O V E N. The mother organization is Zatkin Z A D K I N E nl. You can find the school and educations there. If you want to reach Brendan directly, you can do so via the watches. Do you want to highlight anything else to reach you?

A (62:23)

Yeah, you can reach me out on my LinkedIn, Brendan Wman I'm very fond of my LinkedIn so I'll direct contact. It's always welcome up there. Or write me an email on infolinesbetter-watchees.com.

B (62:39)

Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. You can find all our previous episodes on our official website www.therealtime show. You can find us on Instagram via herealtime Show. You want to support the show, please subscribe, like, rate and share it with your friends. Any questions, feedback and or criticism, please do send us a message. You can also DMS if you want to join the TRTS community. Brendan, are you a part of the community already?

A (63:13)

Yes.

B (63:14)

So another good reason to join the community, because you can DM Brendan directly in the community. And if you are already also part of the community, please give us feedback on this episode. Brendan would very much like to hear how you like this episode. And if you like his watches and he's definitely not sensitive, if you have criticism, you will gladly hear that as well. All the forehosts you can find with our Instagram handles on our website. For now, stay sane and keep on ticking.

A (63:50)

SA.