B (4:43)

Wow. I mean, I never knew that about you that you were hustling from that younger age. Maybe it's why you and Alon get on so well because he always goes on about how he was like the first official online dealer for huge brands like Breitling and IWC and whatnot. But you beat him to the punch by like nine years. So what on earth were you thinking? How did you get paid? Do you have to meet someone in a car park and exchange an envelope or something or.

A (5:07)

We, we didn't sell one watch. Ser. This was. It was. We were sitting there. The, the. The website was built. It was everything. We had an imprint and, and all the, the, the models were online with prices and we had a, we had a. It was a shop. You could put it into the cart and then the checkouts was then okay, you would have to wire the money to us. But this is of course in 1998. Nobody would just wire money somewhere in the hope you get shipped a watch afterwards. Because there was none of these systems of, of trusted Shops, whatever. And yeah, I mean it was just not the time for this kind of transactions.

B (5:48)

Wow, how interesting that you were switched on enough to at least build the site and list the products and have the idea. Because like you say, the mechanisms that now we take for granted like PayPal and escrow accounts and whatnot, just didn't exist online in those days. So what a trailblazer you turned out to be. Now tell me this just for interest sake, what kind of online presence did Circular, the actual watch company have in 1998 when you were trying to flog knockoff G shocks?

A (6:18)

Actually, there was not a single online presence. That's something I built then myself. So really the whole structure, I built a website for the wholesale of my parents with all the brands. So they had Casio and Orient and Hanhard for a certain time and Jung Hans also, of course it was. We were responsible for the southwest of Germany where Potsdam is also located. And as you know, Potsdam is a very watch centered city with, with many brands still there, many factories. It's. Yeah, when you grow up there, it's, it's more normal. If I'm outside of Forza, if you get asked what do you do? And I say, yeah, I have a watch brand. Everybody says, oh, wow, cool. But if you say this in potsam, it's, it's not, not so special. So then I built this website for our wholesale and as a part of this website I built, I built, let's say, a department, a section on, on Circular where I also made pictures of the watches and put them online. But it was because we purely sold the watches through our retail network in mostly southern Germany. So therefore when I say, okay, the reason you might not know Circular, even though it's an old brand is because it was not even a national brand. It was not a Germanly wide distributed brand. It was a regional brand. We were really strong in the Southwest where our retail network was, and a little bit also in the southeast Bavaria where we also had a strong presence. So these are the two departments of Germany where secular was, let's say widely spread. But before I took it over six years ago, it was a regional brand which was continuously operating from 1955 to now. So we have this year, our 70th anniversary.

B (8:11)

So was it still actually a regional brand when you took the reins six years ago and you've expanded it since?

A (8:17)

Yes.

B (8:19)

Wow.

A (8:20)

So the biggest challenge was of course in the first step to get known in Germany, which is, I would say always easier than internationally to get known in your own country because yeah, it's your language, it's your culture. You can also travel, you can go to Dusseldorf. Watch Time is a very big event with more than 3,000 visitors and 70 brands. Also now a lot of international brands. You have, you have the, the watch groups where you can go, you can have a, a good relationship to the, to the journalists because you can actually meet them and talk to them. It's the same language. So that's, that was the first step. And then let's say, I would say since the three, maybe four years we had the pandemic, of course, so traveling was also not possible. So I would say since three years I'm focusing on this international representation of circular that, that we grow. Yeah. Have a brand awareness outside of Germany as well and in the US I would say that works really, really well. Lots of bigger channels like one and round and, and a blog to watch. But also Teddy, he talked a lot about the pro trail. So this is working really well. But it's, it's basically. Yeah, it's six years ago, I took over a regional brand and made it national known. Yeah. From the, in the watch enthusiast circle. And now we are working, we were working towards the international recognition.

B (9:55)

So I mean, this is a really unusual situation in the modern day to have a brand up until almost the 2000s that was basically locked into one part of one country.

A (10:08)

Yeah.

B (10:09)

But very mature within that ecosystem. It had been around at that point for, yeah, 65 years or 64 years. And it was established, it was known people in that region within, I don't know what kind of radius. We're talking a couple of hundred miles radius from the dead center of southwest Germany. Probably would know what circular was. They would recognize it. But beyond that, very little chance that they would have done. So talk to us very clearly about the process. How did you start spreading it throughout Germany? Did you start going to, I mean, okay, events. Yes. Up in Dusseldorf, but what about retailers? Did you build your retail network in Germany first? Did you approach German magazines, first podcasts? How did you do it?

A (10:50)

Also good to know is the, the volumes behind. So in the years before I took it over, my dad, he sold, I would say ten thousands, several. Ten thousands of watches. Right. When I took over, I wanted to have a certain design language, something you can say, okay, that's a circular. So we took some older design cues and then built the brand from this. So in the beginning when we, when my dad is always helping. All right, so he's still involved, but he's in pension but he's doing this as a hobby kind of, so he's helping and he got his hands on movements that were made in the 70s in Pfzeim, so our hometown. And they were this new old stock, they were never used. They were in single parts and we got them and then we had to sort them for days and nights. We had to sort of thousands of the parts of a mechanical movement. We had automatic and we had hand wound. So with these movements we built our first collection, mechanical collection. And they also got very popular obviously in the forums. So there's a big German watch forum, it has 70,000, 80,000 members. They obviously like this idea of a, at this time, very affordable watch because I think we asked €799 for it for a watch that was basically even a movement was hand assembled in Germany.

B (12:33)

Right.

A (12:33)

And also the parts were made in Germany even though they were newer stocking from the 70s, but still there was an incredible amount of work in it. And because we're new in the market, I didn't dare to ask a higher price. So this is how we started into the online direct to consumer business. And from there on, yeah, we developed then towards again the tool watches that we made in the 70s. My dad made in the 70s as well.

B (13:02)

But now in recent years you've moved somewhat beyond just the tool watches that you made a great fist of in the early days of your leadership and you are in the process of reshaping the brand. So talk to us about the current collection, what people will have seen before and what they recognize as circular, what's come recently and what's about to come.

A (13:23)

I mean before it was really the pure tool watches, divers, fields, pilots, this is what, what we had. And then last year through the collaboration with Ghi Gu, which are also met through you guys, we added the facet, which is a steel sports watch, a Gada watch. Now you can discuss if is this still a tool watch or not? But this is your, your expertise. I would still say it fits into the same, into the same direction that we do. We do robust mechanical watches that can go anywhere and do anything. So the Gada and you have then let's say the more real tools, which is the Pro Trail and the Pro Flight and these are our most popular models. So we gonna extend this line this year still launching a dive watch based on the Pro Trail design. And then next year also let's say a driving inspired steel sport watch, also in the Pro Trail series. So then we have a whole, let's say the Pro Series will be the robust watches, scratch resistant, mostly anti magnetic, screw down crown. So you can really take them hiking, diving, whatever you want to do with it. They are really robust and fun story on the side. Yesterday evening, a German blogger, he sent me part of a video. He put the pro trail into a compression chamber and the pro trail is rated to 15 bars water resistance, waterproof. So he put it up to 60 bars and it's still, what do you call it, kept intact. So it's a survived. Survived, yes. Then with 60 bars he stopped because he was afraid then, now something would happen, but. And I thought. And then he also sent me another picture of another watch from a undisclosed brand who rated the watch 100 bars and it bursted after 30 bars.

B (15:48)

Yeah, dear.

A (15:48)

And this is what, what then Quality, I would say. And also somehow experience in the watch business makes a difference that our watch is so well constructed, every component is so solid that it can really resist a lot. That's, that's this pro series in my mind you can do with it whatever you want and it's gonna, yeah, of course, don't do crazy stuff, but this is the idea behind it.

B (16:21)

But I mean the facet like you say is also robust enough to stand up to the rigors of daily life and, and then some. I mean it doesn't look like the kind of watch that's going to fold under pressure when you drop it in the bath, so.

A (16:34)

No, exactly. It also has 100 meters. That was very important to me also that we have the bezel, for example. It's, it's brushed, it's not polished. The brush is a, is, is on purpose, not like super fine brush. It's, it should still fit the whole identity that we have of, of this robustness and, and the G watches. So the facet is, it's a steel sport watch. It's a little bit more elegant, but it's, it's mostly sporty. It's, it fits into the same thing. It's 100 meters, water resistant. You can still do a lot of stuff with it, of course, but also look very good also on a, on a suit or something.

B (17:11)

So when you and Gay first teamed up, what was the dynamic like? Did he come in with a fully formed vision? Do you spend a lot of time together talking? How much involvement did you have in the evolution of the facet as a line?

A (17:21)

Well, I had a concept in mind and I asked Alan, why do you recommend me to work with Ski on this? And he said, yeah, because he understands contemporary sports. Steel, sports Watches. I said, all right, good answer. So let's, let's give it a try. And this is what I had in a feeling from the first moment on that he really got what I wanted. I wanted to have a watch that looks like integrated bracelet watch, but has regular 20 millimeter lux so I can put a regular strap in between and still looks good. So that was kind of the. We would say in German, the, in English, no, but it means the egg.

B (18:04)

Laying wool milk pig and is basically not only the perfect animal, but a decision without compromises.

A (18:12)

Exactly. So, and this is what, what we reached together in. He came up with when he know, he knew, okay, I want to have something with lots of facets. I want to have this integrated bracelet style but with regular lugs. Then he came up with this and then he, he took it to the next level. He faceted everything. He faceted a bracelet, he faceted the crown, the, the bezel, the hands, the, the indexes, everything, the, the dial itself. Right. Everything is faceted. And then I asked him, okay, how would you call the watch? He said, at the facet. I said, let's, let's do it. And when you put this watch into the light with how he thought about it because that's then these, he's brilliant in these finishing touches. What surface to brush and what surface to polish in order to get this light play. But still have it as a sports watch and not as a purely elegant watch. That's really genius, I would say.

B (19:10)

I mean it's quite a remarkable achievement. Not only is it a great looking watch and it's very arresting because of a wisely chosen main dial color. So like the most visible dial color you have is this beautiful seafoam teal color. This is somewhere between sports and dressy itself, which is a great, great starting point for the watch. It grabs your attention because there aren't many colors like it. And it is, I believe, if you poll the world, one of the most popular shades or within touching distance of the most popular shades in the world. So good choice on that front. But you've got a watch that has the kind of, what it makes me think of in all honesty, not because it looks like it, but because it gives the same vibe of robustness and refinement. Is an oyster perpetual. That's what it makes me think of. Or a datejust even maybe because the bracelet itself has so much character. It has the same sort of impact as jubilee bracelet without being anything like it whatsoever. So not a bad comparison, I would say.

A (20:06)

No, I mean I mentioned it last time. For me, from the. The idea from this shape of the bracelet getting into the case was from the Tonda pf That was the initial idea. Therefore, if you look at it, I would say there is some similarities, but it's. It's very much its own design and its own identity.

B (20:31)

I mean, the main similarity there is not only the sort of tapering that sort of takes the finishing from the case into part of the bracelet and then dismisses it after a few links. Which is a nice idea. One that I've experimented with myself over the years many times, normally with two materials rather than doing it with just one. But alternating finishes. But yeah, those alternating finishes on the edges of the lugs to go from brushed to polished to make it look like a multi component bracelet, when in fact it's actually just an H link bracelet with more facets than you can shake a stick at. Right?

A (21:01)

Yep.

B (21:02)

I mean it works very, very well and it wears very, very well. I mean, what's the diameter of this piece?

A (21:07)

38 millimeters.

B (21:09)

Do you think when you've had it on your wrist, do you think it wears like a 38 or do you think it wears smaller?

A (21:13)

I think it wears 38 and you could even say it's a it. I mean, the lug to LUG is only 44.5, but due to the. This integrated style. Right. The lugs go into the bracelet. It feels a little bit longer because the bracelet is rather. It's not 20 millimeter on the end link.

B (21:38)

Right, I see. Yeah. Yeah.

A (21:40)

So this adds a little bit to the length.

B (21:42)

Right. Okay. Okay. I mean, I would. I've described these watches in the past as integral bracelets rather than integrated because they are exactly as you say, able to be removed and replaced by a standards, in this case, 20 millimeter with strap. And we're seeing a lot of these at the moment. I think designers like you, like guy like our friend Simon Ryan that recently launched the Monceau that we covered back in summer. They I've identified a desire for integrated style, but also this desire for flexibility and versatility when it comes to changing straps. So people can buy one watch and 20 straps and have all the looks under the sun with one unit. I think it's understandable. I think that it, it ticks a lot of boxes when you hear what people want. But do you think there is any scope really for brands in your price bracket to design truly integrated watches in this day and age, or do you think that it just is too niche a thing now? And people demand more flexibility from their purchases.

A (22:43)

No, it's really also a discussion I have with. Because we never did it. And I sometimes hesitate if you're not in the front of a, of a trend and you jump on it later, which is commercially super valid and you have to do it. But I'm always a little bit hesitant. I think I don't want to be the hundredth guy who makes this fully integrated bracelet. And I have a discussion with others and for example, Alon said, why don't you hesitate? If it looks good, it looks good, just do it. And that's basically what you see. I mean there is in this price range, look at Venezianico. I mean there's. They just recently came up with the integrated bracelet or maybe a year ago, I don't know. But there is enough integrated bracelets still coming on the market in this price range and I think still they are popular because yeah, it looks good.

B (23:32)

It does look good. It is quite a commitment for a brand to make in fairness and one for consumer also to get behind because you are just buying into wearing that watch as the designer intended. But then that I suppose is one of the advantages of integrated bracelets in that you can never disrupt the overall character of the watch because for me, the facet would always have to be worn on the bracelet. Like it's a huge, huge part.

A (23:53)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's all 90, over 95% of the watches we sell is on the bracelet. But also I wanna, because this passage is now 38 and I have a feeling that the German market, I mean everybody's talking about that the, the watch is getting smaller, the trend is getting smaller. That's a. Obviously the case because we come from much bigger sizes. I think the German market is lacking behind in this trend. So for the German market, a 40 millimeter is still kind of on the lower end. And when we launch the 38 millimeter facet, we got many comments on, yeah, we need a bigger one, we need a bigger version. So I want to bring, I definitely want to bring a facet 41. So we have a 38 and a 41. And I want to see, I want to test it at least. I think we can use the same bracelet for the 41 millimeter, which is a tremendous help in stock keeping because yeah, you know, most of the, of the challenge is your, your stock levels.

B (24:56)

Yeah.

A (24:57)

If you keep on adding every year basically one new collection especially the bracelets are very expensive. The bracelet for the facet is extremely expensive because of all the facets and how it's finished. So this can help managing the stock value. If I can use the same bracelet for a 38 and a 41 millimeter, and they still look like integrated. So this is also one of my thoughts.

B (25:27)

Clever stuff. Very clever indeed. I mean, you've made some very smart adjustments to the line as you've gone through it. And we should talk about the changes that Guy made to the Pro Trail and the way that the dials were presented. And then I guess that we can roll in our TRTS Special Edition Pro Trail as well to talk about that a little bit, because that's something that we alluded to on our last show, but we haven't actually discussed on air in depth. So why don't you take us through the development of the new font, the new logo and all the things that went along with it.

A (25:55)

Of course. Yeah, let me, let me start with the logo indeed, because for our collab that we started a couple of months ago, we put in the new logo, which we also designed with Ski. It was funny because I had, I sold a watch to the US A couple of months back and then the feedback was, yeah, it's all great watches. And did you ever think of making something different from your logo? And the guy, just an American buyer, he researched a logo designer in pfzeim and why should I not reach out to him and maybe work with this guy on the logo? So I actually did, but I wasn't that happy with the proposals from this designer. And then Guy, while designing the feather, just came up with the new logo. And it was about in the same time that we discussed about the Real Time Show Special Edition. And then we, we said, of course, yeah, let's do the, the TRTS Special Edition is the new one with the new logo. So you can see it on there. And what we also have is the, the numerals that were designed by Guy for the facet. So the facet. And also now the new versions of all the Pro Trails and the dive watch version, also the Pro Flight, they have individually designed numeral. So it's our own typeface, which is also on the TRTS Special Edition as the first watch, besides the facet.

B (27:38)

And of course we decided to go for the Explorer layout. So we had the cardinal numerals highlighted, but nothing else. So it's a much clearer, cleaner, we think like highly legible dial. And I remember when we were going through the design process, the first draft you sent through with the numerals at their original size. And I was like, make them bigger. And you were bigger. And I was like, make them bigger still. You're like, bigger again. Make them bigger. And we kept adding like 10% to the numerals until we got to a point where I was like, yes, yes, I can read them.

A (28:09)

Yeah. And I also remember asking you, is this still a field watch?

B (28:16)

That's a good question. I mean, I would say that it, it is. I think that in many ways in my mind, even though the layout obviously leans into it goes towards the pilot style, but I think the size still marks it more as a field watch. For me, I think in my mind a pilot's watch is always, always much bigger. And yeah, I don't know if a pilot's watch needs all 12 numerals. Part of me thinks that it probably does. And I think that a field watch is far more likely to just have four. What do you think.

A (28:45)

It'S, I mean, when you look at the Explorer, is it, is it a field watch? Is it outdoor watch? I don't know. It's. The field watch for me is, is kind of the very limited to the Dirty Dozen layout. So that's, for me, the, the archetype. And then you have, you have different variations of it where this one goes into. Also already kind of a steel sports watch, outdoor watch, because it's scratch resistant, antimagnetic and, and, and just robust. I would, I would not see it as a pure field watch anymore. But I, my, my definition is very narrow.

B (29:29)

That's an interesting one. I suppose I could maybe see it as an adventure watch or an alpine watch, maybe an alpine. I don't know what the definition of an alpine watch would be, but this one does kind of feel like it would be quite at home on the, a rugged canvas strap and knocking around with a load of leather equipment, boots and backpack and whatnot. So, yeah, I mean, it was a joy to make it and it's great to see the response to it and I love wearing it. Although to be fair, we've been sending the sample pieces that we had in our own possession around to the TRTS community to get them hands on experience with it ever since we received them. So I haven't seen that much of mine at all.

A (30:05)

But do you see a lot of pictures on Instagram from all the real Time show network people?

B (30:09)

Yeah, it's, it's quite heartening to see them posting up there and representing the show, which is really great to see, obviously. And if anyone else wants to try it on, they haven't, haven't had the chance already. Then just let us know in the network, if you aren't a member of the WhatsApp community, then you can get in touch via our emails or Instagrams or via the contact form and you can let us know. We'll add you to the group. And then you can get on the list to try out one of these watches for yourself, because, I mean, they are incredible. I saw it on the wrist of a listener and a friend the other day in Waterford at. The other day, it was months ago now in. In Ireland for the Festival of Time. A friend called Rob, who was from the US From Pittsburgh, actually, was there with his wife, and they were lusting over all the independent watches that we had on display at the museum there in Waterford at the event hosted and organized by Johnny McElherin of Chronologs Fine Watches in Ireland. And he was wearing it just one day, just randomly. He wasn't making a big song and dance over. He didn't come over and be like, hey, Rob, look who I'm wearing. In fact, actually forgot that was our special edition. He was just wearing it because it's his go to Daily Beater at the moment. So that was great to see. And it looked. It looked brilliant on his wrist, to be honest. You know, it's funny, when you're close to a watch in the development phase and then you see it a lot in your own hands or on your own wrist, you kind of forget sometimes what impact it can make when you see it for the first time on someone else's wrist. So that was really, really exciting. In fact, I remember the first time I saw someone seeing a facet and my eyes nearly fell out of my head. I was like, what's that? Even though I knew what it was, I was like, that looks incredible. I've never seen one like that. I couldn't work out if it was like an ingenier because of the dial color or if it was like some crazy vintage Rolex I'd never seen before in my life. And it really does speak volumes to the quality of the design and the execution thereof. So you've done a damn good job with that one.

A (31:57)

Thank you. Thank you to the Pro Trail. What I just thought when you mentioned it, that it looked damn good on the wrist. I think also the Pro Trail, especially the TRTS edition, looks best on the bracelet. And now we have the new case design, which is also done by Guy. So we have a case update done by Guy, a dial done by you, Rob. It's Basically the industry legends come together. Making a watch.

B (32:28)

You flatten me, chimich.

A (32:31)

Yes. And I'm making it possible for you guys.

B (32:35)

So.

A (32:35)

But on the bracelet, at least what I. What I think when I see the pictures also on Instagram, it looks, it looks really cool. A little bit better than on the under sailcloth strap. And now with the new bracelet, with a new, with the new case, we also have, we can accommodate a new bracelet which has, and this is a nice discussion we just had, which has female end links.

B (32:58)

Okay. So we had this discussion before we came online. Thank goodness, because I'd never heard you.

A (33:03)

Learn from me when I need to Mike this in my calendar. I. I taught Rob something about watches.

B (33:12)

You did? Yeah. So Cornelius was talking to me about female and end links and I sort of instinctively knew what you meant from a practical perspective, but I'd never heard the term before. And we had a little bit of a laugh about how it could be interpreted, you know, in engineering. We're not going to go there. We're not going to go into what I googled. Okay, that's for TRTS xxx, our new podcast that we'll be launching soon for after hours listeners. Right. So describe to our audience in a PG13 manner, please, what a female and a male end link is.

A (33:47)

So in my view, the female end link is the one which is not fixed to the. To the last part of the bracelet which goes between the horns, but it's flexible so you can fall down and adjust better to the wrist. The male end link is fixed, so it kind of extends basically the luck to luck because it often stands out from the. From the end of the luck. So even further. And therefore, I think the more popular ones are the female end links because they allow more flexibility of the bracelet adjusting to your wrist.

B (34:29)

Yeah. So what we'd say is they reduce the active lug to lug length and they allow for a more immediate drop off of the bracelet around the wrist. So they work with smaller wrists. The male end link tends to look a bit like a T shape in that it has this protrusive middle piece. And then a female end link will look more like a C or a U if you prefer, with a flexible mid link that allows for that immediate beginning of the bracelet effectively. So nice terminology. I think it makes sense. I hadn't heard it before and I'm very glad that it was revealed to me in the safe space that is our friendship. So thank you. Could have made a fool of myself in public.

A (35:13)

Glad we did that. So this one now with the updated case, updated bracelet. We have the female end links. We have also on the fly extension clasp which is really cool. Which we also have now then for all the other pro trails, pro flight for the new diver and next year for the, for the driver inspired watch. And as you know for the facet you can, you can choose yourself. So you can have either the butterfly if you want to have a little like thinner clasp or you can have on the fly folding clasp which is a little bit bigger but which has the extension. And it's really a topic when you, I mean you are also into it. When you follow all the forums, you hear more and more people, I cannot buy a bracelet anymore without on the fly extension.

B (36:07)

Yeah, it's become like an absolute necessity really. I've seen plenty of releases in, in recent weeks where the bracelet doesn't have a micro adjust or there isn't a micro adjust option to purchase after the fact. And people are just dismissive of the proposition. I saw it on one of Clement's posts from Laventure the other day. You know he's released his new Marine 3 and it's a super cool watch. Looks like nothing else he's done before. Got some tumble titanium cave says in grade 23. Is it. I think it's something weird like that. It looks incredible.

A (36:39)

Okay.

B (36:40)

But the bracelet for his is other watches because this one doesn't actually come on a bracelet yet. But for his steel watches they don't have an adjustable clasp and people are still mither ing about it in the comments section and you think, well, at the end of the day, yeah, you're probably right. You know, if, if you're making a watch for like especially the prices here is like around five grand and you probably have to do it. I mean the guys at Strau have come up with a functional solution for micro adjust and you've done the same thing and it's. Yeah, it's, it's very welcome. I never realized how important it was until I started wearing more bracelet watches. But I really, really do think that you've done the right thing there.

A (37:18)

Yeah, exactly. In the summer right now, with this weather. With this weather, it's, it's basically you need it. Yeah, you don't need it, but it's, it's made, it's making it much more comfortable. But what I just thought is on the pro trail also on the TRTS special edition, we don't have a date because of the soft iron cage inside. So we didn't want to Open it. In the end, it works also if you have an opening in it, but it can compromise kind of the safety of the movement. But we also do all the date wheels in dial color, but this is not something where people have a strong opinion on it. You know what I mean? So you have mostly white dates, and instead of dial color, I mean, it's a lot of work, I can tell you, because for every dial color, you need to have date wheels, and you have also their MOQs, minimal order quantities. So in the end, you have a lot of date wheels, and they are not inexpensive, at least to print. But there's a lot also with white dates, which I really don't like and which I would kind of not buy. But this is nothing where people feel so strongly about. Or do you see it different?

B (38:37)

I do see it differently. I think it's one of the first things that people will comment on. Whether or not it really affects purchasing is another question. And the really important question is whether or not the commenters who I see regularly in comment sections are the majority that they appear to be because of how vocal they are, or whether they are actually just a minority of. Of weirdos like me. I'm one of those weirdos because I love a color match date. Now, a black and white date, to me, especially when it's a stock font off the shelf, that's worse than the black and white itself, actually, when it's just the normal font that you get from the manufacturer because it obviously never matches with any of the other fonts on the dial.

A (39:19)

Let me quickly interrupt you on this one. I talked to Guy. Hey, I want to have all the 31 numbers, like, we have them on the facet in our own fonts. And he said, yeah, but this is a lot of work because then you need to shape 31 numbers instead of what we did now, I don't know, eight or 10. And because every then you also need to make them so they can be visible in this little tiny window. It would have been a very expensive exercise. So I said, okay, not for now, maybe for the future, someday, but this is really work. There's a lot of work. I just want to say there's a.

B (40:04)

Huge amount of work that goes into it. It's no small thing to create a font that works in the date window. And I'm not saying it's a font that has to. That has to be the same as the ones on the dial. It has to match them in the sense that it has to harmonize with them. That's the importance. But making a font that is legible because you've got a, you've got a very restrictive window that is a dimension. Now your dial numerals, if you just reduce them in size and double them up where necessary for a date and put them in the date window, they may be too tall, for example, or you may have to like weirdly spaced them so that they filled the window.

A (40:39)

And what I said is, with 31 numbers is also because when you've done the three, you cannot use the same three proportion for for example, the, the date of, of 30 or 31, because the second number numeral to it, it will change how everything works. So it's really, you have to make 31 numbers that fit in there because of the sizes.

B (41:03)

So again, I agree it's a huge amount of work, but someone that's spending thousands of euros on a watch is going to say to you, do the bloody work. Like, get it done and get it done as well as it possibly can be done if it matters to them. Now the argument for a black on white date, while we talk about colors and then we'll talk about fonts, but is that it is the most legible. I think that's probably irrefutable. I guess that's just technically true that it's the most legible.

A (41:29)

But is. Is. Is black on white most legible? Can white on black?

B (41:34)

I would say that black and white is. Is. Is more legible than white on black. Really? When I say legible, I guess what I mean is high contrast, because you could argue maybe dark blue on pale yellow. Like, you know, when you're talking about people that have to read a lot of text, you know, they used to print in dark blue on yellow paper rather than on black on white paper because it was easier on the eyes. So maybe legibility and contrast are slightly different in, in some regards. But let's say the highest contrast date, the most striking and those dimensions probably the easiest to read is a black on white, considering you're not sitting there reading reams of dates. But I often find it jars horrendously with a dial design when you've got like a really cool color. Like take the facet, for example. Perfect example. If you stuck a black on white date wheel in that watch, it would just ruin it and it would make it look so cheap in comparison. But you bring yourself into a whole world of pain. And we're still just talking about colors here before we even talk about the fonts. When it comes to color matching Now, I guess that your dial, your facet dial is made from brass and your date wheel is also made from brass, correct?

A (42:43)

Yes, exactly right.

B (42:45)

So in that case, that's one thing. You're using the same substrate and printing the same materials on top of it. So you would expect a similar result in color. But remember, the date wheel is recessed beneath the dial. So there are some occasions in watches, especially when you've got something like a soft iron plate between the dial and the date, where the difference in height is quite significant and that the color, even if it's actually the same when they're on the same level, could appear different when it's recessed. And so there are some occasions I've known, like, certainly when it comes to different types of treatment as well, like galvanic versus painting, where you have to actually tweak the colors so that they look the same in the watch, even though they are not actually the same. And I think one of the best examples of the difficulty in getting colors to match across all levels is with the Nomos belt Zeit. The DW5201 requires the dial to be in four parts, basically an outer ring, an inner ring, a 24 hour disc, and a city disc. And those dials, they often. It's similar when you're using ultra fine components and ultra fine watches, as we've talked about quite a lot recently, where like, because of the tolerances and we're talking when it comes to wheels, practical tolerances, when we're talking about colors, aesthetic tolerances, the practical tolerances of something, the smaller you get obviously become relatively a larger issue to deal with. The same is true of aesthetic tolerances, which are much harder to quantify when you have multiple components of the same color occurring at different levels or in different parts of the watch. So it is not as simple as people think to then say, I'm going to color match a date wheel costs a lot of money. You have to have more custom made. And if you do want to go as far as having the font redone, then like Cornelius says, that isn't just creating the numbers 0 to 9, that is creating the numbers 1 to 31. And yeah, you've got to do a good job to make sure that it looks at home with your font. To talk about Laventure one more time, this is actually one of the things that is worth noting about something like his third model, the transatlantic one, that did actually have a different font in the date window, which was something that I think was overlooked. Like, people just treat it like, oh, that's easy. You just select a font from a dropdown menu. But it was a custom font that was designed to work with the rest of the watch. And it was a black on white date wheel in both models that you released, then one with a cream dial, one with a green dial. And that would have annoyed a lot of people. But what he did was make the seconds hand white so that there was a connection between the upper level and the lower level. Do you approve?

A (45:17)

Yes, I do. Yeah, that's a, that's a good, let's say bridge there.

B (45:22)

Yeah, it is. It's a good way to do it. Yeah, because you got to connect like these elements somehow. If you do just have like a white dale floating around, a white dial floating around on an island, then it.

A (45:31)

Looks horrendous like you would make the second hand and the markings on a, on a turning bezel that you do that the same. Right. This is a, it's a nice connection.

B (45:41)

Exactly. Drawing those connections is absolutely essential. You know, funnily enough, we're having this conversation while I'm sitting at my desk in my office in Dresden. And right in front of me is a framed picture from Zenith. And there's nine watches on this image and they're from different years, seminal years of Zenith's manufacture, all the way back from 1969 right up to 2023. And 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 of these watches, all of which have dark colored dials, have got date windows and every single one of them is white and every single one of them sticks out like an eyesore. So even the, even the masters make that mistake sometimes.

A (46:16)

So is it a mistake or is it also saving cost?

B (46:20)

Well, that's a very good question. I mean. Mr.

A (46:23)

It's not only what it costs, it's also the capacity and the complexity it adds to manage all this.

B (46:32)

Yeah, but that also, at the end of the day, that comes down to cost as well, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah.

A (46:37)

You need to have somebody who's looking after date wheels.

B (46:39)

And to be totally frank, the crazy truth of the matter is, or the likelihood perhaps is when you're talking about bigger companies that certainly have the margin to absorb a colored date wheel and a custom font, they're probably more likely to go for the off the shelf one because of the volumes they're dealing with. I mean, look at Tissot. Like how often do Tissots have like color match dates? And that's a watch that like in terms of like the production cost versus a circular is pennies on the dollar. So, yeah, you've hit upon an interesting point there. And it's a great one to draw attention to with your work. Will you always stick by that? Will you always have color match dates?

A (47:19)

That's the intention, yes. I cannot look into the future, but I really want that. Yes. To make always this extra effort, not only in dates, but also, as I said, in fonts, in, in matching accent colors to each other. I mean, this is what a great watch makes then in the end, a great watch, at least in our price points where we have. Although let's be honest, also from the. When you look at the big brands, they don't sell you only a watch. They sell you the whole experience of what you can have or the whole aspiration and status that comes with it. When you buy a circular, you buy mostly a combination of, okay, it's a historic brand, German brand, it's made in Germany. It's very good design, it's very good quality, robust for a good price. So that's the combination. And I think in, in we need to always even follow all these design championings. Let's say you cannot have mistakes in there because then you would fall. Would fall off because there's too many other brands that do it also. Exactly right.

B (48:40)

Why do you think people buy circular? Is it that combination, that proposition, or is there, are there other things involved in it as well? Do you think you as a character plays a part or do you think like being part of an up and coming brand is important to some people?

A (48:53)

Certainly, certainly it's been. Up and coming is certainly, I would say, a factor. I hope I'm not a factor. The reason I don't want it to be because I don't want to be there so much in the center. I really would love to have the watch and the brand and the story of the brand in the center, which is kind of my family story. But it's not just me, right. It's also my dad, it's my granddad. It's all the. On the other people that work there. So I would hope it's. It's a combination of what I just said of that it's a historic brand, that it's also a German brand that stands for these German values. And I don't want to kind of say German is better than anything else, but it's about this, this, this the focus on legibility, that, the focus on quality, on robustness, on going a little bit beyond with the 60 bar. Right. We write 15 on it. I knew always that it was more, it was capable of more because we, we build it for 20. But I said let's put 15 bars on it to make a difference to the divers. But then it exceeds even what what what we. This is in my sense typical German, that we deliver more, that we promise. That is kind of a thing as well. So this combination of good design, every thought through details, the robustness, quality and history, that's it.

B (50:24)

A good point, I think, to end the episode, Cornelius, thanks for joining us again. And thanks of course for your trust in trts, for creating the Pro Trail TRTS Special edition which you can find on the official Circular website along with all the other wonderful watches available from this family owned German brand. Circular watches.com that's C I R C U L A W A T c h e s.com if you would like to get in touch with us and ask any questions to Cornelius. Well firstly you can find him in the TRTS network on WhatsApp. So if you want to go to him directly, then just join the group. You can do that by getting in touch with us either via Instagram @therealtime show, via our email addresses, either Rob alon or David herealtime show via the contact form on the official website www.therealtime show. And if you'd like to get in touch with Scala, our fourth host, then you can find her on Instagram @scarlintheshire. That's s c a R L I N T H E S H I R E We will be back soon with more top quality watch content with the innovators of our industry. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.

A (51:41)

Sam.