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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:07]
B
Welcome to another edition of the real time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, rob nudds. I am flying solo today because alon has broken down, is in the garage in the middle of the netherlands somewhere and scarlett is racing towards a magazine deadline. But I have got one good friend in the studio with me. That's toby sutton of denison, one of the most talked about watch brands in recent years. And we're here to pick through his story and journey in the watchmaking world. So, Toby, welcome to the studio.
- [00:33]
A
Hi, Rob. Thank you for having me. Been looking forward to this.
- [00:36]
B
I'm very glad you have. We have also as well because denison's been one of our favorite brands almost every day, especially since I donned a dennison shirt and did some work with you on social media at time to watches. I get messages from people asking me for free denison watches. Did you know that? Did I tell you that?
- [00:51]
A
Well, I mean, you did an amazing job at time to watches and, well, the jackets. I think you. Yeah, I mean, you've probably sold a lot of watches just from sporting that jacket and you know, but yeah, that was great.
- [01:05]
B
Well, I hope we get to do stuff like that again in the future, if only because I get to wear that incredible shirt again. It's quite a garment, but it's befitting of the brand. And it actually speaks to one of my recent meetings I had with a client about the creation of everything other than watches around a brand concept. And I said to them, look, if you see your brand to be in the top 10% of watch brands in the world, which, to be honest, isn't a particularly high bar given the number of brands there are around the globe. Every single thing that you produce that has your logo on it should be in the top 10% of its category. So if you produce a pencil case, it should be in the top 10% of pencil cases. If you produce a pair of shoes, they should be in the top 10% pair of shoes. And you did it with those jacket shirts. They were tailored. They were beautiful material. I don't even think I've ever felt anything that soft before. But it, it spoke volumes. It spoke to the brand and I think it communicated exactly what you're trying to get across about this new lease of life that denison is exploring right now. Now, normally when we have these interviews, we start talking about the interviewee in their life first. But because we've segued into it quite naturally, let's talk about denison. For anyone that doesn't know the name, where does it come from? Why is it significant? And what's so important about this current incarnation of Denison, the brand?
- [02:20]
A
Where do I start? Denison has a great history. It's a recent revival. We've really taken it into the direction of design, bringing it back to life in a way that is probably not expected. Working with Emmanuel Guillet, linking the heritage with what we're doing now is really important. If we look back at the history, they were a very prestigious case maker for a lot of the big brands. Rolex, Amiga and going back, the founder was an American who started Waltham Watch company. He was considered the father of American watchmaking. He then moved to Switzerland and then on to the UK and established Denison in 1905. And they were primarily known, as I said, as a case maker. They made a lot of the military watches and instruments and many of the watches throughout history. Some very important watches were made with Denison cases such as obviously the 1953 summit of Everest by Siromon Hillary. Him and his team were all wearing Smith's Denison watches. Also, you know, you have RAF pilots breaking air speed records wearing Denison cased watches, expeditions to Antarctica and things like that. So the history really is incredible and you can take the company in any direction we wanted. They made so many different designs and really what we've done now I think is something different. We haven't taken one of the historic models and done a lot for like recreation. We've tried to put a spin on a revival and really created a new, almost a new brand. And I think what we've done is really interesting and it's been super positive. Reviving a brand that has history is, is almost more difficult than starting something from scratch. With Denison being a case maker and they're making so many different designs in their history and I think now the way that we're looking at it again, our focus is very much on design and shapes and people valuing the design of a watch. And so I think that link is really important.
- [04:22]
B
So I'm going to challenge you a little bit on that comment that you made there that starting a new brand may in some way be easier than reviving a heritage brand. I can understand where you're coming from in the sense that you've got a completely clean slate and there's nothing that you feel obliged to honor. But what I've noticed with Denison, and maybe this is exclusive to Denison in some ways because it wasn't so much known for the watches it Made as it was for the quality of the components it made for others, and so perhaps wasn't quite as bogged down by reference numbers or iconic pieces as it were. Is that when people hear the name, there's this sense of prestige and honor, especially among the British, strangely, that instantly elevates basically whatever I think you'd have done this time around to a point where they're at least interested enough to take a look. Now, that's surely an advantage, is it not? What exactly do you think makes it difficult? Is it that custodianship or is there more to it than that?
- [05:25]
A
I think it comes with the pressure of doing the name justice. And when you. I think what we've done well with is because we haven't recreated an exact watch from the archives or something like that, we've done something different and. Which has almost created its own story. But I think when you typically revive a brand, obviously the watch media and collectors, they can be very critical down to the smallest details. If you recreate an old model and the hands don't look right or the bezel's slightly too thick, they can be very critical. And also, yeah, just doing. Doing the name justice and. And also in terms of design, it can be quite limiting if you're going the way. Recreating the heritage models because people tend to love the old watches more. So, I mean, my background's vintage, but, you know, it's hard to beat the old watches from the 50s, 60s. And when you recreate them, some brands do it very well, but some brands and it can be limiting. So I think what we've done is we've. We've looked at the archives. We've. Obviously the cushion case is something that we've looked at and thought that's what we want to reintroduce. But it's very different to the Denison cushion cases from the 1930s. That's why I think we've done quite well in that sense, because we're creating a new, almost a new history for Denison. And where potentially it left off in the late 60s, it's almost a continuation of what it could have been at that point, which is really nice. That's something Emmanuel picked up on. That's my thinking behind it in terms of it can be difficult reviving an old name rather than starting fresh with something new.
- [07:09]
B
So really it's more of a revival of spirit in the sense you're taking the essence of what made Denison a pioneer as it was very much in its day. And in fact, in Many ways. Far more tangibly than a lot of the brands that we hold up in the pantheon are for great. Like, okay, Rolex itself. Rolex contributed a huge amount to watchmaking. But a lot of that would be in tandem with the work of Denison, which is very, very interesting from a lover of watches to look back on and appreciate that some of the name behind the names. Isn't that what you say about Denison?
- [07:45]
A
Yeah, that's really cool. We were working with a creative agency and they came up with that slogan, the name behind the names, which is. Which we really like. And it's. It's perfect really, because that's. That's who they were. And the industry was. Was quite different back then. The way it worked in terms of outsourcing and relying on. On suppliers. But Denison really was one. Well, they were one of the biggest case makers in the world and, and they made, you know, they've got patents for all different types of quality of cases. And again, I go back to design because that's where we're kind of pushing. But you've got cushion cases, round, rectangular, you know, all different lugs. And. And it kind of. Yeah, it's, it's a. It's a great place to be.
- [08:36]
B
The name behind the names is absolutely worth every penny you paid that creative agency. It's one of the best slogans I think I've ever heard. Not only is it just nice on the ear, it just perfectly summarizes the. The importance of the brand. And it's. It's great. It's. It. It extols the virtues of Denison without being braggadocious. It's just like a fact. It's like, yeah, we made these innovations. That's who we are. Right, time for some quick fire questions. You don't have to go into huge detail on all of these. If I want more, I'm going to push you on it.
- [09:06]
A
Okay.
- [09:07]
B
When did you acquire the name Denison?
- [09:10]
A
It was in 2010 whilst I was working in the city trading stocks and shares.
- [09:17]
B
Why did you acquire it?
- [09:19]
A
Because I was bored in front of eight screens waiting for signals trading and, and yeah, I was doing some research. I wanted to very much, you know, be involved in the watch industry. So my kind of initial thoughts was to research some of the old names and to kind of just out of interest really to see what happened to them. And Denison obviously is a name I, I knew. I have known for years in the past. And yeah, and I saw. I. It was more. I didn't even see as an opportunity. It was more of a, like I said, out of interest, acquired the name and then didn't do anything for many years after that. It was, you know, having an idea and then making it actually happen and it coming to fruition is, is two different things. But yeah, 2010, going back to your.
- [10:14]
B
Question, you made it clear that you knew about Denison at the time. It was a name that resonated with you. How did you know about Denison as a derivatives trader?
- [10:26]
A
Well, well, my father was in the vintage watch ind. Watch industry. My grandfather was in the antiques industry. We had a, A, an antiques gallery on Portobello Road. So from an early age, I remember on Saturdays being at Portobello Road and kind of opening, I was always with my father. So any kind of all of the watches he would be buying, you know, he would be open, opening them in front of me. And you would say about 50% of the watches, especially if you're talking about watches from the 1920s to 1960s in the UK, 50%. You open them, there will be a Denison case. So Denison was a name. Yeah, I probably knew of from when I was probably 10, 11 years old. So yeah, that far back.
- [11:18]
B
So you already had a great awareness and I take it, love and appreciation of watches during your career prior to starting Watches of Knightsbridge, which happened in 2011, a year after you bought the name Denison. Tell me about that experience. Was that something that you did with your father involved? Is it something you branched out and did on your own? How did it work?
- [11:42]
A
Yeah, so I, I mean, I'm thankful for the support from my father because I managed to convince him to, to kind of take on this crazy idea of starting a watch auction because at the time, I mean, I was desperate to get out of the city and do something different and build something, you know, that you're not going to lose overnight like you can in the stock market. So, you know, and he, he kind of, yeah, again, he kind of supported the idea. His contacts, I knew his contacts in the watch industry were enough to make it, make it work initially as a concept. But, but yeah, it was very much. And at that time, I think there were. The auction industry was, it was quite stuck in its ways, especially with the cataloging and that was kind of when Instagram first started. And so we kind of put a bit of a new, younger spin on a watch auction and also specializing on watches rather than, if you look at the other auction houses, bonhams, etc. They, they don't specialize Just in watches. So it was something new and we tried to do. Yeah, we, our focus was basically try and do it better than the competition. And I remember that the first couple of years were tough, like with any business. But it was quite quickly the way that the market changed. I remember speaking to my father, I think it was after our first or second auction, I think and I said, wow, these old watches are quite hard to sell. You know, like there were not many buyers for these old vintage Tudors and reversos at the time. And then kind of fast forward 2012, 2013 when the market, well, the focus on the new watches, everyone started to do inspirations of heritage models. You had Tudor coming out with, you know, the heritage chrono and. And then vintage started to become more mainstream and we started to get younger people in through the auction. And yeah, 2013 was a bit of a turning point and kind of was when we started to do quite well.
- [14:01]
B
When did you first try and revive Denison as a brand?
- [14:05]
A
It was in 2016. So again, it was not something really I intended to do because my passion was more vintage and I loved what I was doing with watches of Knightsbridge and, and kind of, you know, I get to handle all these different watches. That was my interest. So. But what happened in 2016 is I met with a watchmaker and we were just talking about, you know, talking about things and I mentioned Denison and he was like oh, funny enough, I bought some of the older case making machines from one of the older directors from Denison, from the factory. And as soon as he said that I was like firstly I couldn't believe it and then secondly, I kind of saw it as a sign to maybe do something with the name again because I saw that as the link between one of the links between that, the history and the Denison of today at that point. And so we gave it a go. We made 50, I believe it was 50 watches as a kind of a test, as a test run. The cases were made in the uk, Swiss movements, eta and we kind of took a. Took the angle of more of the explorer 1950s theme and it was picked up by a lot of the press but it didn't quite work out with the manufacturing side of it in terms of feasibly at the price we wanted to pitch it at and making the production at that point, 2015, 2016 in the UK yeah, just didn't quite work out. So I kind of put it to the side and again the history is not going to go anywhere and then we can go on to where it led in 2023. But yeah, that's when I first gave it a go.
- [16:08]
B
What kind of price point were you hoping to operate at back in those days?
- [16:12]
A
Well, with the cases being made in the uk, no one was doing that at that point.
- [16:17]
B
For a reason, I guess.
- [16:20]
A
Unfortunately, yes, for a reason. Making anything in the uk, especially watch parts, was a pretty much a silly idea from the start, but it was in 2015. I mean at that point we were pitching at just below £3,000 I think, including VAT. So between 2 and £3,000 at that price range and they were very limited, you know, I think, I think that was, I don't think it was the price point. It was, it was, yeah, it was. The cost of the watches were costing far too much. And what I think was interesting because at that point, 2015, 16, the market, you either had your high end brands, your mid range brands and then there was not much below it, like pretty much, you know, you had basically fashion brands below that. You didn't have what, what you see today as this kind of micro brand independent and kind of segment between say £500 and 1,500 or we can speak in dollars, you know, between below $2,000 I would say where today I think that market is super strong. That did not exist in 2015. That segment. For me it was either a fashion watch or then you jump up to your Tudors, your, you know, and then up. So yeah, it's. Times have changed quite quickly. Doesn't sound a long time ago, but yeah, the market's moved quite a lot.
- [17:54]
B
I mean looking back to those years, looking back at those watches, it does feel like an endeavor from a completely different era of watchmaking because I mean at least two eras have passed since then. We had the COVID era and we've got the post Covid era now and the landscape has changed entirely. The microbrand scene has exploded. There's more division between the mainstream and the up and coming independence, as I prefer to say about brands like Denison, that despite your price point and mostly direct consumer model, although you are exploring a retail network also pursuing like individual design, there's no emulation at all. It's all original, it's all exciting, it's got provenance behind it. With Emmanuel on board as well, that didn't exist like you said, like there wasn't this, there wasn't this movement and it's a terrible word to use in watchmaking because it's so confusing. But yeah, there's this, this revolution quite Quite literally a revolution of creativity and independence. And I don't know whether you feel it as much as maybe someone like I do, because I'm on the front line of covering every brand. You know, it's my job to be focused on like, who's going up, who's going down, who needs to do more, who should take a pause and, you know, reevaluate their goals. But there's been no name more often mentioned to me than Denison in the last year. And I can barely believe it because Stefan, your colleague, contacted me maybe July, August last year, and he told me it must have been August, actually. That's right. It was after a trip to India where I'd been talking to one of my good friends on this trip to the Himalayas that we'd, we'd buddied up on and he'd come to me with an idea for a watch brand and he said, rob, you know, I'm not a watch guy but I like a nice watch and I've got this idea for a brand and I think there's a gap in the market. And I was like, oh yeah, great, what's this going to be? This great sage that's about to tell me what I should be doing in my job, he goes, how about a quartz powered hard stone dial watch between 500 to £1,000? And at first I sort of rolled my eyes. I was like, oh yeah, okay, great. Yeah, hard stone dials, brilliant. Yeah, of course, yeah. As if you'd be able to get a good quality one for under a grand. Anyway, I mulled it over over the three weeks that we were out there together. And by the end of it I became convinced that he was absolutely correct, that he'd sort of stumbled across something through a mixture of like, inspiration and ignorance. He had actually landed on something that me being too close to the industry, hadn't been able to see so clearly. And I get back home and I get a message from Stefan in my inbox saying, I've heard your name banded around Geneva. I'd like to talk to you about the relaunch of a brand that we're pursuing. It's Denison and this is what we're trying to do, blah, blah, blah. Told me exactly what my mate Charlie had pitched to me in India And I went back to Steph and I said, look, I got to tell you, I'm thinking about starting basically exactly the same brand myself. So if there's anything that you might feel like you don't want to tell me because it Might be a conflict of interest. I totally understand. Otherwise, I would love to talk to you. I would love to see how this project goes. And he said, worry about it. He's not really from the watch industry, is he? Originally. And I thought, okay, this is obvious because he's, he's nice and he's trusting and he, he shared with me the plan and I shared with him my thoughts and feelings on it. And he went off and you and I met for the first time in October, I guess in New York, very briefly in Macy's when I was having lunch with Stefan. And at that point you just launched and within six weeks it felt like your brand had been in existence since 1874. It felt like it had never left. It felt like it was not only new and exciting, but deeply rooted and established in the industry. And there was just no question about it, which I find absolutely remarkable. So I want to know, how did you do it? Who did you pay? What magic? Are you aware of that? I'm not. How did you get a brand from basically the crypt to the top of the mountain within a few weeks of being back in the market?
- [22:12]
A
That's a good question. And it's, Honestly, it takes me by surprise as well because obviously we were confident about the idea, but I know how critical the watch collector community and the press can be. And honestly, the positivity, from the start, as soon as we launched up until today, it's just been incredible. It's. People have really taken to the brand, taken to what we're doing, just seem to be loving everything, you know, that we're doing. So it's, it's surprising. It's. And I mean, I think obviously having Emmanuel, I mean, I think what, what it is, is maybe creating something that's. There is authenticity there in terms of bringing Emmanuel gets with his history and giving that assignment to him almost like, like in his past with ap. Like, you know, this is, this is what, what you've, this is the assignment and kind of show us what you can do. And I, I think, yeah, I, I, to be honest, sitting, sitting here again, I can say I'm. I'm. It's quite overwhelming about the positivity and hopefully we can just continue, continue to grow and bring out some interesting. I mean, we've got some really, really cool models lined up that we'll be releasing soon. I can't talk to talk about them now, but yeah, I think it's just been really, really. And like starting any businesses, there's been ups and downs, but in Terms of seeing as we launched in October last year, 2024 to now, it's been amazing to see the growth and being part of it. It's been really, really interesting. Just going back to the actual concept of the watch having hard stone dial and Quartz movement. I think what's interesting is because we launched with the Quartz movement. This, I mean, first of all, we, it was all about design for us, then the movement. A lot of people will obviously take the movement first and then fit the design around the movement, which is kind of. We've done the opposite. And it was always, we always wanted the watch to be slim, you know, it's very dressy. Obviously the size is really important and the Quartz movement is, is perfect for that, for this kind of watch. But it's, it's interesting because launching with a Quartz, it really, it, it attracted an audience that maybe were not so. How do I put it kind of politely? The watch geeks, which I am one of them, but it didn't get the attraction of, of maybe those people that can be quite negative. And personally, I think Quartz is having a bit of a revival in itself and people, they're not looking down on Quartz like they used to. It's having a bit of a resurgence and I think what it allows you is to be more creative with the design and that's what we're doing. So, you know, Quartz fits perfectly with that. And also at the price point, we want to make it accessible, which Quartz again allows for that. But it's, it's quite interesting because, you know, when, when in previous launches, when you see. You might read some forums or press and people will look at the movement and calculate the value of the movement and then they'll try and work out what the retail price would be with us. It's really, it's really. You're valuing the design and, you know, you can say the history as well, but it's very much, you know, yeah, it's, it's putting together a watch that I think, and the amount of comments we have that people say, oh, the watch is too cheap, you should be more expensive, you know, and this is. Even with the courts movement, you should be above $1,000, you should even be $2,000. And you know, they could be right, they could be wrong. But from the start, we were clear, especially with Emmanuel. I remember the first meeting, we, we put two watches together. I won't tell you which two watches they were, but we said, if we can mix this with this and introduce it at this price point, I think we're onto something and obviously we were. So.
- [26:57]
B
Yeah, you definitely were. Yeah. I mean, I. I don't expect that you can share sales figures with us directly, but can you give us any indication of whether it met or exceeded your expectations and were you adequately prepared for the onrush of interest that followed the launch?
- [27:16]
A
I won't share any numbers, but from the launch it was steady growth. So we launched October 2024. The press coverage kind of came in the months after that, so the growth kind of was building, so it was manageable. The one thing recently with our first collaboration with John Reardon and collectability that kind of gave the company a huge boost in terms of press. You know, the collaboration was featured worldwide and before that, although we. The idea of the collaboration with John, you know, we. We were very confident, but we really didn't know how many we would sell. We were hoping to sell a certain amount and we had kind of backup plans if we didn't reach that amount, you know, we could maybe work with our retailers or something. And we ended up selling three times the amount we had hoped to in those six days as it was our first collaboration and kind of a watch that had limited. It wasn't limited edition, but it was only available for the six days. But we were like really, really surprised at the reaction from that. And yeah, we sold over three times what we had hoped for, not even expected. Had hoped for at that stage. So that was great. And since then the interest has been really, really. It's been really high and we're just kind of trying to maintain at the moment we are in terms of stock quite low and we're having to reinvest, which is a good position to be in, but it's quite stressful in terms of managing the demand. So, yeah, that's the current phase we're in at the moment, but we're looking to release an evolution of the ald. Again, I won't say exactly what it is, but it's. I think that will only increase the interest.
- [29:13]
B
Talking of the name the ald, it only dawned on me recently and I don't know if you expressed this very clearly on the website. You probably do, and I just missed it. But it must stand for Aaron Lufkin Denison, right?
- [29:25]
A
Yes, yes, it does.
- [29:27]
B
So that's the name of the founder, the Denison named Founder? Of course not. What was the other guy? Alfred Wigley, for The original company, 1874, was it?
- [29:35]
A
Yes. The Wrigley Denison and Company. I think it was, but he he had involvement in so many different companies prior to that and. And after, but he doesn't really count.
- [29:46]
B
So Lufkin is one of my favorite names now. I've decided that if I ever have a child, I might call them Lufkin. I think that's just Lufkin Nuts. Luffy nuts. Okay, brilliant. I want to ask you a personal question. We touched upon your career as a derivative trader at Kyte years ago. What we didn't mention was prior to that you were a model. You knew I was going to bring this up and it got me thinking because I. Like I said, I met you in October. We've only spent a few days together in total, like fairs and whatnot. I can't pretend to know the man behind the public Persona that you express to the world too well just yet. You seem like a very, very nice man. You seem like a good soul. You seem like someone that doesn't actually seek out the limelight, but you have been thrust into the awareness of the watch community because of this incredible success that you've had with Denison. And I wondered, even as somebody who has, for a significant period of time, three years of your life, modeled and put yourself out there, someone that's like brave enough to be in front of a camera, how do you feel as a man? Do you feel, you said earlier, you feel the weight of expectation, you know, the pressure upon doing the Denison name justice, as it were. How do you feel personally? Does it affect you to comments like, I don't know how many bad comments you've received, but would that hurt you? Have you got a thick skin? Have you got a good support network around you? Do you covet being in the public eye or would you prefer to just be the guy behind the scenes? What's it like?
- [31:21]
A
I'm totally the guy behind the scenes. And hence my modeling career was quite, quite short. But that was also because I am quite short as well. I'm only 5 foot 10. But then the modeling career was something towards the end of school. That and when I moved to London was. Was a good few years. But going back to. Yeah, going back to it. It's some. My personality is, is kind of behind the scenes and not at the forefront. But with, with, with, with things like this, you have to, you know, you have to be. You have to be out there. But for me, Denison is, is very much it's all about the brand and not. It's not. I, you know, people like to know who's behind the brand. And I can understand that. But I feel like the brand, the heritage and what we're doing is, is much more important than, you know, my personality or my personal background or, or the other partners, so to speak. Obviously Emmanuel get, our designer, has probably more of an interesting, obviously more, more of an interesting background that's relevant to Denison. So, you know, that's something we push. But yeah, for me it's, I'm happy with the being behind the scenes.
- [32:40]
B
So just. Look, I like you, Toby. Yeah, I think you're a top bloke. But if you ever make a comment, a passing comment like I'm only 5 10, and laugh it off as if you're not blessed when you're talking to a man that's just 5 foot 7, we're gonna have problems.
- [32:55]
A
Sorry, sorry.
- [33:00]
B
It's fine. I forgive you. You're only 5 10. Oh, you carry yourself well. What can I say? Next question. Moving on from the personal stuff, you said you're not going to tell me much about the novelties. I object to that. I'd like to know a little something, but I'm going to ask an overarching question to begin with. Will you ever do mechanical watches?
- [33:19]
A
No comment.
- [33:21]
B
Oh, okay. So it's at least in consideration.
- [33:25]
A
Of course, I mean, you know, it is, but I think at this stage we're not actively working on it. But it's, it's. Look, it's something that we, if you're going back to comments, we do have comments saying, oh, I'm waiting for you guys to introduce a mechanical version and it is something we will do. But I think at the moment, with our future releases for the next, I would say at least year, we haven't got anything planned for mechanical. But yeah, again I think if we were and if we are to introduce something mechanical, I think first step would probably, probably be manual wind. Just again, in terms of keeping the watch as slim and as small as possible. If we go to an automatic for this current model, we're just, you know, obviously hesitant in terms of making the watch too large. But yeah, it will happen, but I definitely can't say when.
- [34:21]
B
Okay. It's interesting. It's very interesting that it will happen. I do think that this model would suit a manual wind movement as well. It's, it fits the style, it's appropriately sized, etc, etc. But I want, yeah, I do wonder like how I would feel if I were in your position looking at that. Because there's always going to be that itch to shall we do mechanical? Shall we go into that different Lane, shall we satisfy some of those, you know, comments in the comment sections? But at the same time, you've had so much success doing what you're doing in a way that nobody else has done it. And it would be a real conversation for me. You know, I have blancpain. Jean Claude Biver said so clearly and forcefully, there has never been a quartz blancpain. There never will be a quartz blancpain. I've paraphrased him slightly there, but you know what I'm saying. I could almost see myself in your position adopting the same hard line about Dennison now and saying, okay, we are that brand that offers incredible design, excellent materials with a quartz movement at an accessible price in a period of time where that's clearly what the public wants. It would be a question in my mind as to whether that would be a strong and advisable branding move, because I could see it with a manual. I could, I could certainly see like a limited run, let's say, because you've got those secret hidden diamond studded cases that don't exist. Right? Yeah, the off catalog versions of the ald. So for anyone that hasn't seen or heard whispers of these things, there are diamond encrusted versions of these watches with either like a, what do you call it, a snow setting or like a baguette setting. You know that beautiful pieces, they exist in the shadows. Now, could I imagine a manual wind movement being released in a similar way? Yeah, I could. Could I imagine an automatic. I can't even picture what that would do to the dimensions and the whole sort of feeling of the brand. So it's a serious, serious question. But I felt compelled to ask it because the other question, of course is where do you go from here? You know, you've got novelties coming, but you've had such a runaway success with the first model and the concept around it. How do you take a step forwards or even to the side and maintain that enthusiasm? Is there any hint you can give us about what might be coming in the next few months or next year?
- [36:40]
A
You've raised a good point. In terms of do we just stick with the court's movements? I'm more on that side of the argument at the moment and continue to do what we do. At the end of the day, people are valuing the design. Like I said, people are not as fast, especially in, maybe not in all markets. But the fact that it has a quartz movement rather than a mechanical movement at the price that we want to offer is never going to be the Most high end mechanical. It's nothing we would ever really be shouting about unless we were to do a collaboration with a. With a. Like an independent watchmaker. But that's something different in terms of the core line and, and what we're doing. I think Quartz. Yeah, we. That's what I said. There's no plans as yet. I'd like to say it would happen but again, I don't know in what capacity but for now courts and in terms of the new releases, it's funny because when we first started we obviously launched with this case but with. With the aim of releasing maybe another. A different, you know, two different cases within the space of a year. You know, we're a case maker, you know, a maker of shapes and for what? For. The idea we were pushing is we want to make interesting cases and it's something we want to do. But because of the success of this first launch and this first case and design, now we've had to change slightly what the initial plan was and we're really kind of. We're looking at basically evolutions or different versions of the ald. So the case shape that you see, it's difficult to say it without giving too much away because I think you said this is going out in August and our next release is being released at Geneva Watch Days September. An evolution of the ALD in two different formats which is not. Is not something to be expected. I think I'm hoping for a really good reaction like this. But yeah, the case. I think because of the success of this case and even the reaction from some people, you know, the feedback has been almost to stick with this case and forget about anything else which I don't know if it's good advice but it's, it's. I'm, I'm. I'm a good listener. I always listen to advice and then I'll obviously digest and make my own opinion. But it's really interesting and I had a conversation with one editor and it was quite quickly before we. I think it was around Christmas, there's only a few months in and he said are you worried that the success of the design and the watch is more. Is basically more. It's going to be more of a success than the brand itself is the. Is this case and this model is what Denison will be known for rather than anything else. And it's a good question. It's not, you know, that wasn't the plan and this case shape has been and this model, I mean personally, it's such a great case. It's such a great design. Obviously I'm saying that bit biased, but, you know, I think it would be. It's something we're going to stick with at least until middle of next year before we start to possibly release something that's completely different. It won't be completely different. It will be in line with. And again, this is something that we're working on with Emmanuel, our designer. We've got, we've got some great, great other designs in the pipeline, but it's. It's what? Yeah, it's at the moment it's working out what to release when.
- [40:23]
B
I mean, it's a very valid question from the editor that you mentioned. It's not the worst thing in the world to start off with a humdinger of a release that puts you on the map whether you'll ever outgrow the ald. Time will tell, I suppose. Whether you can embellish its importance to the industry by adding different options to the lineup is itself a question, but one I feel confident that you will answer positively. I think you've just got a great team, you've understood the remit extremely well and there's no reason to assume that it'll be a one hit wonder. And look, there are plenty of brands that have had their, you know, five years in the sun with one great model, one great case shape. I hate to point to Daniel Wellington as an example, but they did it seven Friday, did it really with their original P series. When they tried to diversify the line, people didn't really get it. And it always, you know, that success all came down to that one piece. Can it be done? Is it still a success? Yes. Is it what you want for long term? No, obviously not. You want to be able to branch out and to grow and evolve, but I think you're well set to do that. Regarding the novelties and what's coming in Geneva watch days, I'm going to put my money on a carbon fiber case and a luminous ceramic case with pure osmium dials, both retailing for around 30,000 francs. So you heard it here first. Am I close?
- [41:44]
A
Well, is that the, the collaboration idea that you were.
- [41:49]
B
Definitely not. No, I'm just, I'm just pulling you like that'd be ridiculous. But one thing though, I, I was thinking after I'd asked the previous question, where do you go from here? I was thinking, well, what would I do if I were in your situation? And as I mentioned earlier, I had an idea for a brand that basically had the same. I mean, it's not a usp, obviously, it's an sp. It's a selling point because we had the same vision or Charlie did and, and your. And you and your team did at the same time. One of the things I was really adamant to add to the watch we discussed producing was a very interesting bracelet because I believe that there's a dearth of good bracelets in the industry. I think you saw the response to the Ferland Mari Disco Volante when it came out, right. Everybody loved that watch. A lot of the reason was because they had built a watch that clearly sympathized with its bracelet. It was. It was a whole concept perfectly realized at a great price. Now, a Denison, especially with Emmanuel's experience, because for anyone that doesn't know, Emmanuel is a man that designed the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Offshore, which is obviously a famous integrated bracelet watch. Now, the integrated bracelet comes from Gentle's design way back when in the 70s. But he knows what he's doing when it comes to building the concept around an integrated bracelet. If you moved into that sphere, I'm not sure how the ALD would translate to that. The ALD on a mesh or a Milanese would look a million dollars, I'm sure. But something in that vein, adding value in that way, like not taking away from the spirit of the case and the dial as you have it already, and not needing to upgrade the movement, that could be an interesting avenue to pursue. Has more, shall we say, ambitious bracelet design been a conversation you've had in house?
- [43:34]
A
It has, and we are working on bracelets, but I think we've been back and forth with Emmanuel in terms of. For this model, you know, it will suit a bracelet, but do we. We basically, for, you know, model two, do we introduce something that is more of a bracelet model? You know, we launch as a bracelet watch, maybe a. Something, you know, slightly more elegant, sporty. But for the, for the ald, we are working on something. And whether or not, you know, bracelets are extremely difficult to, you know, especially bespoke bracelets from start to finish can. Can take longer and more work than designing the watch. So it's, it's something we're working on. It's basically a work in progress, but we've got some. Some lovely designs. And the ALD is a very elegant, classic watch. And you could say there's an argument for it to never really belong on a bracelet, but if you can create a very nice, elegant, dressy bracelet to go with it, which is the idea, then, yeah, It's a possibility.
- [44:45]
B
Yeah. I could see it working. I don't think that the current ALD needs it at all. When I first got one of these watches on the wrist, I just kind of smiled and shook my head at, like, the elegance of it and the way that it sat and how lightweight it was, how refreshingly lightweight it was. I was in a phase of double wristing, which I don't do very often, to be fair, but I had, like, some Armin Strom bracelets and a David Kando bangle on my right wrist. And I took to wearing the Denison that Stefan lent me on the right wrist with these little fabric bracelets, and it was like air. It was like it wasn't even there. And it was the only. Only real watch I would say that I've ever been able to wear on my right wrist without it annoying me. And it kind of became. It became the first thing I put on in the morning on the right wrist before I decided, oh, what watch am I going to wear on the left? It's that good. It's that versatile and that wearable, that it can just be almost an accessory. Now, I wouldn't normally describe a watch as that, but I think that that really speaks to the appeal of this watch to the audience, because at 37 millimeters. Is it 37 millimeters? The case.
- [46:00]
A
Lug to lug. 37. And width is 33.5. Yeah.
- [46:04]
B
Okay. It's 37. Lug to lug. So that's why it has such a broad appeal to men and to women, because it doesn't get lost on a man's wrist and it doesn't overpower a woman's wrist. I'm talking model averages. Of course, like, there are some exceptions, extremes in both directions on both sides of the gender divide. But this is a extremely versatile watch, perhaps the most naturally unisex piece I've seen in my career. Was that intentional when it came to deciding upon the size? Have you imagined larger cases or smaller cases of the AL of the ALD in its current guise?
- [46:44]
A
The intention was at the start, yeah. To make one size that's. That's unisex. So that was the intention. Yeah. Going forward, we are going to increase and decrease. You know, we're playing around with the sizes, but for this one, yeah, it's. That was the intention. And it's worked. Yeah, I think it's worked pretty well. Like you said, for. For a men's wrist, I think the. The fashion and the trends very much, you know, smaller watches now for men and women. So we're, you know, I think that appeals to, to that kind of market and that type of buyer. But yeah, it's, it's, I think it's, it's quite like you said, it's. Not many brands will introduce a watch that is, that is pretty much, you know, officially unisex and I mean I'm trying to think of, trying to think of some now. I mean I'm sure there are but it's, yeah, for this, for this particular model it is very much unisex and we, we've just introduced two different sizes now of strap because that's the only thing with the straps we're offering a kind of a regular and a small.
- [47:55]
B
Oh, that's good to hear. Although I must say that having a pretty average size 16.5 centimeter wrist, I find the normal strap to be perfectly agreeable and brilliant. Brilliantly supple, gorgeously made and the buckle as well. Just little touches. I mean you can tell, you can tell that it's been done by somebody that doesn't leave any stone unturned when it comes to the design. So for any of our listeners who are intrigued by Denison, maybe you haven't seen them on their wrists yet. Could you tell us before we close off the show where are these watches currently available to be seen in person either retailers or upcoming events from September until the end of 2025?
- [48:36]
A
Events wise, we're at Geneva Watch Days and that's early September. We'll also be at the Milano Watch Week in October and also New York Wind Up Fair also in October and then in terms of retailers at the Currently we're at Time and Time Studio in the UK in London and also in their. I think they're launching their new studio in New York in November. So Denison Moches will be there also. And then Timekeeper, Kuwait. They've got a great platform and a few boutiques in Kuwait and then yeah, that, that's where you can see them at the moment and also in Geneva and Clarence Jewelers in the Old Town and at Geneva airport.
- [49:20]
B
Brilliant. So just as we're recording you're about to head off to Chicago for the Wind Up Fair. Obviously by the time this comes out that will have been and gone. But I hope that you have and by this time have had a wonderful time there and met with a lot of local watch fans, retailers, journalists and met also with a positive reception. If anybody within the WhatsApp community would like to get in touch with Toby and ask questions about Denison, then please do send us a message. You can do so via our official instagram handle @therealtime show via any of our personal emails at either Rob Alon or David therealtime show. You can contact Scarlett via her Instagram that's scarlandtheshire. That's S C A R L I N T H E S H I R E. Or you can get in touch via the contact form on the website www.therealtime. show will be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.