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- [00:00]
Rob Nudds
Hi and hello, Watch fans, and welcome to the 250th episode of the Real Time show. With me, your friendly Edward, watchmaker Rob Nudds, our friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alain Ben Joseph, and our resident provocateur, David Vaucher. All together again, the three musketeers back in the virtual studio to record some answers to your questions that have been filling up our mailbag over the past few months, during which we've of course, been more focused on delivering our Time to Watchers content. But now we're back to our original format, at least for today, and soon, as a matter of course. Gentlemen, welcome to the quarter millennium.
- [00:39]
David Vaucher
Huge, huge achievement.
- [00:41]
Rob Nudds
Huge. I love it.
- [00:43]
Alain Ben Joseph
Thank you to you guys. Thank you to our dear listeners because they are the for us, the reason we are here, the reason we're being, the reason we do it. I have gained so much pleasure, energy, fun, new friends, the community we're in. I don't derive much pleasure from WhatsApp, but our little hub, our island, the TRTS WhatsApp community, is so much joy. I actually look forward to logging in there, although sometimes it's an avalanche of messages pouring down. I want to ask you gentlemen, what is the highlight or what three or five episodes of the 250 stand out for you?
- [01:31]
David Vaucher
I'll go ahead and say that just being invited to join the show is a big deal. I don't know if anyone out there listening has ever tried to cold pitch anyone for anything, but it tends to be a lot of just cross your fingers and pray and you both let me in and you let me in based on a piece that I wrote about the Tiffany Patek Nautilus, which I think was the first article actually. And so if we look at that as, or if I look at that as my entry into the world of watch media, then I think that's definitely the most significant for me. And it still gets some reactions every so often. So it's good to, good to feel like I wrote something provocative and I was given the platform to do it well.
- [02:13]
Rob Nudds
I mean, the whole audicle concept came about because of you and because of that cold pitch and because of the article that you wrote. It wasn't something we'd been thinking about until you threw your hat into the ring. And we were more than happy to have you on board. And to be honest, I can't really remember the origin story of how you got on the show. I know that it was due to that. Couldn't remember if we'd reached out to you or if you'd reached out to us. I just always take it for granted that you've been here since the start and really, I mean, as far as it goes, you have, I mean, 250 episodes in. You've been here for the lion's share of them. And although we haven't done as many articles as we'd like to in, in the recent months, we'll be getting back to that for sure in, in the coming period. And I think it's really one of our strongest offerings. What do you think? Alon?
- [02:53]
Alain Ben Joseph
I agree, and I'm thinking how we found David, but actually he found us. He was an avid listener, he reached out and we clicked and he joined. Well spoken, good accent, good writer, provocative, which is his nickname. He's a global citizen and he's the force behind our LinkedIn posts. So thank you for that by the way, David, because you are there, rock solid, posting loyally and literally within 24 hours after an episode came out. And we are still amidst our time to watch his avalanche of episodes that we air in every day. So I've been receiving many messages. Hey guys, is this guerilla marketing? You guys are flooding my podcast stream. I just see time to watches and the real time show non stop and every day. So that's also an interesting tactic. You do a hell of a job. I enjoyed our Q&As, what we're doing here today. And while still hogging the mic, a little shout out to our fourth member, Scarlett Baker, who joined this year. She's so busy and jetting around the world, literally that she can join. We had a time pressure because we only realized like today that Tomorrow is the 250 episode. So when you're hearing this, we record this very last minute.
- [04:21]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, good to pull back the curtain and show how disorganized we are. Wonderful, wonderful stuff. But in the background, David has been keeping us organized behind the scenes a lot since he joined. And funnily enough, although we've never met in person, which you may find unbelievable, we have finally got a date where we will coalesce and I think it's time to announce on the 250th episode. It's all confirmed and been communicated now to all exhibitors and journalists around the world that we are an official media partner of Geneva Watch Days. So we're going to be there in a maybe not glass, maybe Perspex, maybe maybe plastic igloo somewhere near Lac Laman, recording content live during Geneva Watch Days, hopefully keeping everybody who's not able to attend the event up to date with what's going on. And David, you'll be there with us. So we will be a full team, all four of us, and possibly some more of our swing men or swing women hosts that will be joining us occasionally to help cover the deluge of information we imagine to encounter when we get to Geneva in September. So that's an exciting thing. Let us know what you think about that in the TRTS network. Of course, if you have any questions for brands that'll be exhibiting there, you can drop them in any time and we'll save them in our shared documents so we have access to them on site. But without further ado, let's dive into some of the questions that have been sitting around waiting for us to answer and some that came in within the last 24 hours. In light of our announcement that this would be our 250th episode, we're going to start with a question from Max, which is extremely symmetrical. I love this. 250 years of Breguet and 250 episodes of TRTS. What would you do to bring Brega back to its glory or even restore the recognition it had when its founder was still at the helm? So, big question. One of the most prestigious brands in the industry that maybe has not received the kudos it deserves or the name deserves, at least in the last few years. What do you guys think of the state of Breguet? What do you guys think? Is the going very well? What do you think's going very badly? What's lacking? What could we do with less of? Perhaps. Let us know. Let's start with David. Go ahead.
- [06:34]
David Vaucher
So I've written about this before and I think we've talked about it as a group in terms of just the Swatch group and where all the various companies fit in. And it has definitely come up that Breguet is a sore spot. BL is probably the other one. Let's leave that to the side. Now let's talk about Breguet. I think also it's obvious that whatever answer I give, whatever answer you give, Rob Allan, we're not going to cover it all in 15 minutes. I think there's a lot to do here. But anytime I'm faced with a problem, I always ask myself, what's the. What's. What's the end point? Where do we want to end up? And so I think Brega, what it needs to do within Swatch, first of all is just ask itself, what do we want to be? Do we want to be a money Maker for Swatch. Do we just want to be a Halo brand where everyone sort of associates the quality within the company within the quality that Breguet produces? So I think the first thing that it needs to do is really try and understand what it wants to be because clearly it's missed the boat over the last few years when high horology has just taken off. It's crazy to me that Breguet, with its history, with its product portfolio, with its know how, because it just makes phenomenally good watches, they've missed the boat. And so I think the first thing they need to do is just really take a step back and say what is it that we want to be as a company and how do we want to fit in within this watch group? And I think it's probably a good place for me to pause because otherwise I know I'm just going to start rambling. So maybe Rob and Allen, is that, is that a starting point or do you think I've missed something and they do know what they want to be, they just haven't executed on that properly?
- [08:08]
Rob Nudds
No, I think it's a great place to start because I think that it touches on a few of the more recent and more visible releases from the brand, which have not been anything but impressive, but maybe not quite as arresting or showstopping as they might have hoped because they do sometimes feel like they're straddling these two ideas that you mentioned. You know, do they want to be a moneymaker or do they want to be a Halo brand? And I think Swatch Group sees it as a halo brand that will make money because of that regardless. And I don't think that's correct. I think that there is so many options available in this price bracket now for incredible horology, really pushing boundaries, really challenging people's ideas of what aesthetics a watch can get away with. That Breguet just doesn't stand out. Now if we look at the very, very most recent releases, we've got a couple of pilot watches, type 20 chronographs, 2075s. Now these are as far as Breguet goes, I would say pretty commercial pieces. They look very similar to a couple of Longines, big eyes that I remember coming out in recent years because, well, one of them, the black one is a big eye, the the other one is a compere layout. 2 sub dials, 1 at 9, 1 at 3. Very nice looking watches, very wearable day to day pieces for solid gold watches. But then you've got the price tag attached to them and you know, is that something that will really shift unit upon unit because it's a good looking watch from a great maker. I, I don't know like it. It does seem to sort of be somewhere between the two. This is a commercial looking piece that I think Swatch Group expects to sell because it's got the name Breguet on the dial. But does it provide enough separation between something like a Longines which we see in the black dial version here mirrored almost perfectly or something like a, let's say an Aran type 20? What do you think David?
- [10:07]
David Vaucher
So Rob, what I was going to say was just react to a comment you made at the end which was that Breguet thinks that people will just buy it because it's this Breguet on the dial and if that's really what they think then there needs to be some kind of shakeup because if you were super into watches, you're going to know Breguet. If you're someone who just wants to flex, you're not going to know Breguet. You're going to know Patek or Rolex or any of these other brands. So I think Breguet has a like a pretty. It seems to be that they may have a very serious disconnect between what they feel their brand represents and what people actually think it represents. And so going back to kind of some root cause stuff, I think that would be top of the list to figure out in terms of. Yeah, what do people perceive the brand to mean? Because I don't think it's there right now.
- [10:51]
Alain Ben Joseph
Valid point, David. And I try to compare or I don't try, I always compare them to their sister brand Blompa. They're both positioned in the pyramid that they always sketch out. So the hotel luxury and the highest achievable within the Swatch room. And it seems that they've woken up at Breguet and not so much a Blompin Blancpain got demoted to make collapse with Swatch and Breguet got upgraded by getting an apprentice of Reynold Ashleyman, the president and CEO of Omega. His crown prince went to Breguet recently they brought back the type 20s, both the civilian and the mil spec version. Recently they also brought out the gold versions. So I think we'll see a lot of firing power coming from breguet the coming 36 months. To answer the question that Max posed, first thing that comes to mind is for me the Marie Antoinette pocket watch. I believe it's number 160. That's what I love about Breguet. They'll write the numbers on the dial. And it seems that I keep on missing that watch. It has been on display in Jerusalem for quite some time after it'd been stolen, disappeared for many decades, recently resurfaced. And I just missed it by one day in London during the exhibition there. So I need to go find that one. I believe they've made a replica once. But how cool would it be if they bring that one back in a small batch or a limited run or few per year?
- [12:53]
Rob Nudds
Geez. That's an ask. That's. That would be big news. Yeah. And that would be a statement of Breg moving in a different direction. Really position itself right at the top of the Swatch Group pyramid. Because you're right, Blancpain and Breguet are often lumped in together, but I think we get the feeling that Breguet is still seen as like, the jewel in the crown of the Swatch Group. I disagree that Blancpain is as lost as Bregate. I think Blancpain has a bit of a reference number problem. It has too many references in the collection. And that's true of reggae as well. I would say with these pyramids in groups, the hierarchy should also reflect the volume of. Not just volume of pieces, but the number of available pieces within the catalog. I get that Omega has like, thousands references, like, for its diverse global market. I. I think that's too many. I said that before. I think a lot of people would agree with that. I don't think it's a particularly hot take. But when you look through the catalog of Blancpain in particular, who I feel is, like, quite easily definable by a cop. Couple of categories. You've got the 50 fathoms, which is a legend in its own right, and you've got the Villare collection as well. And I think that they both stand very comfortably next to one another. They are extremely what they are. One is an extreme sports watch. One is an extreme dress watch. And there are great examples of high horology in the Villaray Collection and great technology in the 50 fathoms. I love those two collections. I think there could be fewer of each type available. Personally, I think the bathyscaphe could just go, I have no need of it. Some people like it. I've never really understood it. I don't think that it has the same DNA as the 50 fathoms. I think it looks completely different and not in a good way. And when I look at the Breguet Collection, I sort of feel similarly. They have some cool categories, but maybe too many. You know, you've got the Marine, the Type 20, the Classique, the Tradition, the Heritage, the Classique, the Tradition, and the Heritage. They're three words for basically the same thing. And they've split this across three different model lines defined by case shapes or movements or the way that they are presented. I just don't think it's necessary. I would really, really tighten up Breguet's entire line. Absolutely. Crush the volume or the, the breadth of the pieces that they offer and just go for extremely high end stuff. Separate it from Blancpain entirely. Don't make it another, like top tier luxury brand that's just whatever. Make it kind of like the Harry Winston of the Swatch Group.
- [15:21]
David Vaucher
But Breguet, I guess, Rob, the one thing we don't know is how many of these pieces are they actually manufacturing. But even then, it's still not a great look, as you're saying, to have such a diverse product catalog. I would say as you were both talking, it just seems like. So there's a marketing problem here for sure, but there's also a product problem in the sense that the Marine is their sports watch. And I think what Breguet has going for it is that they have a design language where if you know what you're looking at and you see a watch, you're like, okay, that's a Breguet. And the Marine was reintroduced a couple years back. I think it's the third generation. I think it's been a downgrade from generation two, which you look at that and you're like, yeah, I want that. Because that's a sports watch as interpreted by Breguet. And it seems to me like they did somewhat missed the boat in terms of there's no integrated. Well, I guess the Marine is kind of an integrated steel sports watch, if you look at it that way. But I think something like a Breguet diver could have been done. Look, I know it's not part of the heritage, but I just think they need something. They've got this phenomenal design language. They have this incredible ability to do crazy technical things. And it just seems like all these trends they could have hopped on and said, okay, we're making a dive watch, we're only making 500 of them. Or an integrated bracelet steel sports watch only making 500 of them. They didn't do. And so now they're at a point where the tides are receding a little bit and they're lost from A branding point of view, and it just seems like it's a bit of a tough hill to climb. Rob, what do you think?
- [16:49]
Rob Nudds
I think that there's a. Yeah, a good point there with the Marine collection specifically. Now, as far as watches I'd like to wear go, I think the Marine probably tops my list from Breguet at the moment because I do like it a lot. But I found myself thinking, if I take each of these collections to try and trim the fat on this catalog, which collections would I actually buy over? Something else that's available on the market. Now, when I look at the Marine, the direct competitor, I see to that. And call me crazy if you want, because this is just my perception. I see the Ulysse Nardan Marine Topir as a similar model in terms of its inspiration. These are not watches that are intended to go underwater particularly, but they're watches intended to be on the water on the wrist of like an Admiral or something like that. Now, for me, although I'm not a huge fan of a topia from Release Nadan because I prefer the more sporty stuff from Release Nadan and the stuff that pushes the boundaries, like the freak. That's a better, more wholly realized concept than the Breg Marine, which feels like, oh, we've kind of just. We've kind of got this like officer case and. Well, I say officer case. It's not actually an officer case, but I mean like a sort of an officer style case. And it's got a waves on the dial in some cases, sun ray on the dial in other cases. In the ladies cases, there's mother of pearl and sometimes it's been textured as well. And I just. It's all over the place. I don't get like a strong visual language from it that distinguishes it from other stuff in this bracket. So I wouldn't go for that one. And then when I look at something like the Heritage Collection, do you know what the Heritage Collection looks like off the top of your head? Do either of you know what the Heritage Collection looks like off the top of your head?
- [18:30]
David Vaucher
No, I just had to Google it actually.
- [18:33]
Rob Nudds
Right. No shame in that because neither would I have known. The Heritage Collection is like a tonneau shaped case. It looks a bit like, I guess there's only three, three or four models in the collection that I know of. And they look like just kind of like Frank Muller sort of cases. And I just think, what's the point? Who on earth buys a Heritage chronograph from Breguet in this style? I can't see it. I can't see it. There's a couple of ladies versions as well, with like a moon face and diamonds on the bezel, but they are completely forgettable. They're not Breguet, so get rid of that collection entirely. The marine either needs to be got rid of or it needs to step out of the shadow of all the other things around it. You got things like the Classique. They're very nice watches. But then I'd buy a Villaret from Blancpain. So I'm like, okay, maybe I'm not so interested in that. Then you've got your type 20s. Well, I'd buy a type 20 from airing instead of Breguet and save the 20, 30 grand. Now, the Render Naples line, the ladies stuff, that's actually pretty good because that looks like nothing else, in my opinion. I guess the closest thing to it in terms of case shape and the way that integrates with the bracelet is a single strap Serpenti. But they are miles apart. And this is something that I think probably has a place it could exist for longer.
- [19:44]
David Vaucher
It.
- [19:45]
Rob Nudds
If you wanted to make ladies watches, which I suppose you probably do, but would I buy that or would I buy a Beauregard? If I were a woman, I'd buy a Beauregard personally. Now we come to the Tradition collection. This, to me, is where Breguet should focus. This is what Breguet is. This is an exposition of the works. It is stylish. It looks like very little else. It has. I'm the closest thing it looks like is a George Daniels or Roger Smith. And those are great names to be mentioned in the same breath with. So for me, this is where Breguet should entirely focus and they should just do stuff like this, and they should do more of it, and it should be wilder and more incredible than ever before. And they should continue to try and push the boundaries because that's what Breguet is known for. That is the brand, is it not?
- [20:30]
David Vaucher
Totally agree. You know, as we're talking analogies. The tradition. Oh, yeah. I would love to have one of those. And I think if you push that farther, you end up with a Ferdinand Beau or Ferdinand Beau, and without knowing how they're doing, every time one of their watches comes out, they seem to be well received. I'm sure they get bought put away somewhere. I don't think they're having trouble selling those watches. So I think the market. Well, I do not run in these circles, these.001% circles, but I would think that if Breguet were to get to that point, they would be able to sell that type of product. So you're right. Take the tradition and run with it.
- [21:06]
Rob Nudds
I mean, it goes back to Alon's point because if the Marie Antoinette were to come out, it would be in the tradition family. That's the kind of thing that I think that they should be doing. There should be very few bregues available and they should all be stratospherically expensive. Because the crazy thing is right now you say you want a tradition. David, I don't know exactly what you've got in your collection right now, but I know you've consolidated a while back and you know you've got some, but you've got some good heavy hitting pieces. You could easily sell a couple of those and buy a tradition on the secondhand market because they don't hold their value. And that's a problem for Breguet. Breguet watches should be heirlooms. They should be almost unattainable. And they should be unattainable not because of enforced scarcity, but because they're hard to make. And I don't get that from them right now. Right now I get a brand that is part of a massive group that has a huge amount of self warfare, know how around it ability, money. They can produce these pieces pretty easily. And I would like to see them really pushing themselves into a corner to do something truly remarkable that is befitting of the name on the dial.
- [22:09]
David Vaucher
Going back again to what Alan said, do you think it's possible that we're reading wrongly into this and this was just kind of not a vanity project? But I know that to one of the Hayex, it was a big deal to get this Marie Antoinette pocket watch. So I know it's a publicly traded company, they have to satisfy shareholders. But is it the case that it was just bought because it could be bought and it's enough just to own it? Alan, what do you think?
- [22:34]
Alain Ben Joseph
No, I don't think so. I had the honor to meet Mr. Hayek Senior several times. Breguet was his baby. He loved, loved, loved the brand. And nobody could say anything bad about it. Nobody could do anything wrong to damage the heritage. I think with his passing, it got derailed a bit. Nick Haig Jr. His baby is Swatch and he loves filmmaking.
- [23:04]
Rob Nudds
So.
- [23:05]
Alain Ben Joseph
And I think that also reflects back in what happened the last, let's say two decades. Now I raised my hand to ask you gentlemen, the first watch. Gregory Kissling, the new CEO. This is the Apprentice I was talking about that came from Omega. I believe his first watch was The Classique subscription 2025. So it's the. I don't mean this disrespectful but it's the Meister Singer by Breguer. The single hand watch discuss. €53,200 in VAT so probably around 40k Swiss francs exvat. Right move, wrong move. Would love to hear your opinions.
- [23:53]
David Vaucher
The difficult thing is it's like when George Kern took over Breitling from iwc. You never, you didn't really know what was his versus what was in the pipeline when he joined. I will say it's not really Breguet. It's not the move. Is Breguet known for single handed watches? No, their thing is tourbillons obviously and it's difficult to make waves with tourbillons because everyone's doing tourbillons now. But no, I don't think that's the right move. I don't think that is going to move the needle and to that point I just had to Google it. It just, it's been buried in everything else that's been released. Yeah. So I think that watch just kind of proves they've lost their way a bit. Although let's give, let's give the new CO some time and, and, and give the benefit of the doubt and see what comes out. That's actually his versus what might have been in the hopper before he actually joined.
- [24:48]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, not much to say about that single hand Breguet to be honest. I mean the movement to me is, is lovely. It's kind of what Breguet should be doing, but who cares? And that's not a great, not a great thing to be able to say about a brand with such prestige and such heritage. Genuine, genuine history. Not just manufactured, not just inflated for the sake of selling watches, but like an icon. And it has perhaps lost its way. Which leads us nicely into our next question. So this is from Leroy came by the TRTS network and Leroy asks, is it so rare that brands lose their way? How many brands lose their way and then come back with a vengeance? So this is a lovely segue from a brand that we feel is still trying to find its feet in the 21st century to discussing brands that maybe have already been through that wilderness period and come back stronger than ever. So I'll kick it over to whoever wants to put their hand up first in the chat. Alon, nice one to pick a brand and tell us of a renaissance story.
- [25:51]
Alain Ben Joseph
The first one that comes to mind is Zenith I actively was part of. I'll call it the almost two decade run because Zenith has several ups and downs and revivals and maybe they should rebrand to Icarus. They. Every time they fly too close to the sun, their wings get burned and they fall down. Or call it Phoenix instead of Zenith because they rise at the ashes again. But to stop with all the metaphors, Kirina, tough. If you've been in industry long enough, you might remember him. He's still active in the luxury fashion industry. Flamboyant gentleman, lovely guy, very passionate, has vision and executes. So he came with the tagline. He. He's awakening the. The. Either the dragon or the princess with a kiss. And that was his vision. And he brought back the Chronomaster.
- [27:01]
Rob Nudds
He.
- [27:01]
Alain Ben Joseph
He made the open calibers with the El Primeros. And one might dispute or discuss or agree or disagree that it has or hasn't been a success. He's been replaced by Dufou, who today is the CEO of Rolex. He made a 180 and brought Zenit back to classic models. And it's bit in line with what you're saying, Rob, that Breguet should do. So it's actually a funny segue. And then LVMH brought in Biver, Jean Claude Biver, and he said Zenith is the future of watchmaking. And he started doing avant gardistic stuff with the El Primero 21 edgy cases. Some would say too much hublot esque. And I guess the one that deserves a prize is Julian Toner. He hit a home run with the Chronomaster, which ironically. The Chronomaster Sport I'm referring at, sorry, which ironically has some similarities with one of the most wanted Rolex watches out there, the Daytona. But what I think they did well and I give credit to be for two things. Setting the strategy for Zenith being the future of watchmaking and pushing the envelope on R and D and creating new calibers, but never letting go of heritage. So he kept the 400 caliber in there and the old Chrono masters, but immediately created the Fis and the edgy cases. And the second thing is that he recruited Julian Toner as his apprentice at Zenith and let him step up and do his thing. And he did his thing very well. So a heavy task for Benoit, the clerk, the current CEO has been on the show. Julian, Tony has been on the show, be very on the show. So maybe I'll shut up and suggest we invite Cherry Nataf. I'm curious what brands you guys think.
- [29:11]
Rob Nudds
Of just to touch on the Zenith story, because I totally agree with you that it really came back to prominence in the last decade or so. And Julian had a great deal to do with that. What he handed down to Benoit was a company still in a new transition. I think we're bringing back some sort of heritage models and some new stuff popping up in the Defy collection, like the Defy Extreme Diver, of which I was not a fan initially, Although they've just released a new version that's got like yellow accents instead of orange, blue, black, and it's absolutely cool as hell. One thing that is interesting about what Xena's doing now, and I'd keep an eye on this for the near future, is that after revamping with great success, I believe their pilot line, they've just released a full blue ceramic cased version of the pilot. And now I can't help but look at that and think this is Hublot technology stepping sideways into another LVMH brand. And although that is one of the strengths of major brands, where bigger or higher end brands can do the research, pioneer a new material, a new aesthetic, and then it can trickle down to other brands. And Hublot was frequently described as the Formula one of watchmaking. And that's exactly what happens in Formula One in terms of the technology they're experimenting with there that eventually trickled down to road cars and whatnot. I'm seeing this blue Zenith and I'm thinking, okay, Zenith needs to be careful because this is a moment where a lot of that good work could be undone if it went too wild and if it blurred its boundaries between what it is and what it could be. But maybe what it shouldn't be, while you're standing side by side of a brand like Hublot in the same group, talking of that group and another brand that maybe has gone through periods of lulls, shall we say. TAG Heuer seems to be hitting its stride very nicely at the moment. I think that the rerelease of the oh yeah, F1 coincidentally range was great. And I think that they're reaching a new audience. I think they're well managed. I think they have the right person at the top of the company. And despite it being a brand, I have never had any strong feeling for. I have found my head turned by a couple of recent releases by TAG Heuer, and I am very satisfied by what they're doing. David, do you agree with me on tag or do you think there's still work to be done there?
- [31:26]
David Vaucher
No, 100%. You know, I think TAG Heuer it's interesting because for a long time, whether you were in Europe or the States, they were just deemed like a nice watch in quotes and not in a good way. It was sort of one of those things where like, I've got some money, what do I get? Oh, I get a tag. And it didn't really mean anything. But what they have done, what they have always had is this really close association with motorsports going back obviously to the Hoyer days and then even past that when technique Devongal tag actually, you know, acquired them and they became Tag Heuer. But they've always had this. And it's kind of this thing where it's like you sort of main. I'm trying to think of an analogy in life where you keep doing something because you never know if it's going to be useful and then one day it's like that saves you. And that's what they've done. When they were brought in to lvmh or maybe because they were brought into lvmh, they suddenly had all these different resources to play with. And if you like motorsports, you want a tag. And that's sort of where I find myself now. I don't really know which one, but I want one because I love motorsports. And they just associate. They have associated themselves so well with that and now that they are basically the. The. The marquee sponsor for F1, which has had its own renaissance, I just. I don't see how it's anything but upwards from. From now. I mean, they have to be okay with being the racing watch and I think they are because for a lot of people, they want to have a piece of that. And I think Tag Heuer is going to sell a lot of watches off the back of that heritage and the efforts they've made to become even more associated with that.
- [32:58]
Rob Nudds
What do you think about the aquaracer? Do you think it should exist?
- [33:03]
David Vaucher
Oh, excellent question. There is one. Which name is not off? I don't have it offhand, but if you look at aquaracers from back when the line started, there are some super, super interesting models. And I know that it's not great for a brand to talk about prices on the secondhand market, but there's some deals and those aquaracers are phenomenally attainable and capable for what they are. So I agree with you, Rob. From an overall branding point of view, they might not necessarily be the most obvious choice. And I'll be honest, like the latest ones that have come out just look like an attempt to do an Omega Seamaster 300m. So those aren't great, but if you go back to ones from, call it 15 years ago, really, really well done. Like, really well done.
- [33:52]
Rob Nudds
I'm quite a fan of the Time and Tide special edition, I have to say. I like the colorway that they put on that one. But beyond that, yeah, I just, I see the form and I see, like, you say, like a knockoff Seamaster 300M, and I definitely, definitely rather buy one of those. And they're not cheap anymore, Aquaracers, they used to be, like, a pretty affordable way to buy into the collection, but you're talking 3,500 sort of €4,000 to even get into the basic level of stuff. So, yeah, for me, that's just a bit of a distraction from what Tag does really well. And I think that the Formula One stuff, and I think the Carrera speaks to that as well. Obviously the Monaco, the Monza, all these other pieces should still exist. And, yeah, I think they've done great, great stuff. But we can't talk about Renaissance or coming back from even way, way, way beyond the dead if we don't mention Tudor. So who wants to take this one?
- [34:45]
David Vaucher
Yeah, I'll take Tudor. I mean, no one really thinks of that anymore because they're just so, so gigantic in the watch industry now. But you don't have to go back that far. We're talking 2012. I think when the. The original black bay was in burgundy was announced for release. And I think it was the, the big news, I think, and maybe you both can correct me if I'm wrong, because I was in the US at the time. They were still being sold in Europe, but they had not been sold in the US for a while. And so this is going to be their big reintroduction to the rest of the world. And when you think about it, I don't want to say it was lucky timing, because at the end of the day, Rolex was behind them, but no one, no one was forcing anyone to buy these new black bays. So it really seems like it was good timing because watches were taking off around the world in a way that maybe they hadn't for a while. It was a dive watch that they'd selected, which, as far as I know, is the most popular type of watch being sold. It was at a time when vintage reissues weren't a cliche and it was from a company that had the pedigree. I mean, Tudor's been making dive watches almost as long as Rolex has, and so all of that Just combined to snowball on itself. And now it's at a point where, you know, Rob, I know it's not a good idea to mention the Ranger around you, but if you ask me like, hey, I've got three to five thousand bucks to spend on a watch, what do I buy? I'm almost always going to steer you towards Tudor because maybe they play it a little bit safe and maybe that's probably not fair because they've taken some detours, but phenomenally just handsome watches, capable watches, great stuff all around. So I think that is home run as far as the Renaissance go.
- [36:25]
Alain Ben Joseph
I want to play devil's advocate here and have a little discussion about Tudor. Maybe it's almost an article discussion, but let's do it very briefly. Leroy asked brands that lost their way and then came back with a vengeance. I dare to pose. Tudor never reached any peak and pun intended zenith until a decade ago. They were a sleeper brand for at least 20 to 40 years because Wolfsdorf registered it, didn't do much with it for a long time, then said, hey, this is a poor man's Rolex because everybody deserves a quality watch. Rolex, no cost spared. Tudor will use cases, metal bracelets, crowns from the same company. But movements will buy and will watch cost.
- [37:29]
David Vaucher
Now.
- [37:32]
Alain Ben Joseph
I don't think up until a decade ago Tudor was that hot that you went out and bought a Tudor because you wanted a Tudor, you wanted a Rolex, probably couldn't afford it and then you got a half baked submariner prince and in the last two, three decades in Asia it was a competitor of Tissot or Long Jean with classic watches. I'll put the mic back out there. Whomever raises their hand first to rebuttal.
- [38:05]
David Vaucher
Yeah. So Alan, to your point, they weren't big in the US and the US along with China is not exactly the same. But they're basically qualitatively the same. I mean they're, they're huge, huge markets and watches and to not be present on the US market to me says that they're non existent to a point. They wouldn't be nearly as big as they are now without the US powering it. And that comes from that revival. I mean, who knows how many black bays were sold in the US versus other territories. But it's a lot. It has to be a very large number. And I think that to the extent that that Black Bay kickstarted Tudor back in the U.S. you have to qualify that as a resurgence.
- [38:43]
Rob Nudds
So are you saying that the previous. Well, what should we say? Iteration or era of Tudor, pre Renaissance, pre2010 was not known in the US.
- [38:54]
David Vaucher
Well, they. They weren't just. Right now I'm browsing some of their older models. They've got the. The Iconaut, the Hydronaut. These are. They're not bad watches. I mean, they're definitely products of their time, but they're not icons in any way. Whereas if you ask someone that got started in watches, maybe in the last 10 years or so, if you were to ask them 20 years from now, can you remember a Tudor icon from back when you started? Yeah, absolutely. Was the Black Bay. It was maybe not the Pelagos so much, but the Black Bay, certainly. So, yeah, I think they were just. They weren't existent to a point where they mattered prior to the Black Bay. And that has completely changed now. I think they're one of the most important companies in watchmaking.
- [39:35]
Rob Nudds
But that's interesting. I mean, do you think perhaps the ignorance of the US market to the original Tudor as the poor man's Rolex helped with its explosion 2010 and especially 2012 onwards, because it wasn't sullied by that slightly. I know, negative reputation is the word. I don't think that personally. I think the fact that they shared, like, bracelets and cases and crowns with Tudor is a huge boon for Tudor because you get in the majority of a Rolex on your wrist bar, a workhorse calibre that you can get serviced anywhere. So do you think that helped, like, set the stage for Tudor to explode with this new story that wasn't polluted by any of the past?
- [40:10]
David Vaucher
Probably. I think it's. It's much easier to get a new customer than it is to win another customer back. So if there were any negative perceptions, I think you want to minimize those. It helps with just a relaunch, generally speaking. Personally, this is just me. Don't know how. If I'd have been in a position to afford, like a quote, nice watch 40, 50 years ago, whatever it was, when, when these original Tudors were on the market, like, would I have liked having like a Frankenstein basically, of like Rolex parts and Tudor movements or ETA movements, basically? Not really sure. I. I will speak just again for myself today and tell you that if I'm looking at a tutor, at no point does it ever cross my mind that, like, oh, well, it comes from Rolex and therefore it's better than it should be. I think they've carved out an identity for themselves and I think that they have done very well with that. So to me, a Tutor is a tutorial. They've done great and hats off to them for all the work they've done.
- [41:05]
Rob Nudds
Interesting, because to me, the Rolex association still actually gives me a sense of comfort because I feel like, oh, this is a company that knows what they're doing. They've got, like, good voices in their ear. Not necessarily to the product itself, but, I mean, Rolex isn't going to allow for a bad product to go out on the market because they're going to know that it's going to have a reputational kickback towards them at some point, if that were the case. Anyway, interesting stuff we've talked about here. We've had definitely Renaissance, I think, like brands losing and then finding their way in Zenith and Tag. We've had the proposition that Tudor never really lost its way because it never really got as going as it could have been originally, but then exploded. Here's one for you. Another LVMH do over. Daniel Roth, founded in 1988. It was very of its time. It was sort of, you know, that early 90s style. Then it ceased to exist and now it's come back. But it's come back exactly the same as it did before, really. Let's be honest. You know, they've not changed anything about those watches. There's obviously slightly different versions thereof, but, you know, it's the same thing, it's the same concepts. Maybe it's the 90s nostalgia that's pulled us back towards Roth now. But what do you think about that one? Did it lose its way or did it just fall out of favor and is now like society conspired to give it another chance?
- [42:24]
David Vaucher
So this is interesting because it touches on, well, one of my favorite topics, which you both know and which listeners will know, which is fashion houses and lvmh, to their credit, I think, really does. When they want to do something, they. They do it properly. So good for them for just handling that project. Well, to me, it seems like what Daniel Roth has benefited from and perhaps will continue to benefit from, is that there's two different trends. One is that this explosion in interest in watches has obviously caused more people to be more receptive to brands that may have been under the radar. But I'd be lying if I said there wasn't this kind of investment aura around Daniel Roth because everyone was looking for the next FP Journe or the next, like, early. Roger Dubuis is a big thing now. And I can't help but think that's because people want to be clever and jump on the next bandwagon, so they can resell it for two or three times the money down the line. So I don't doubt that they are very good watches. I probably will never be in the income bracket to actually buy one myself, but I do think that there is a bit of this investment potential that is hanging around Daniel Roth. I mean, have you. Have either of you seen them in person, or am I off base with that?
- [43:38]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, we've seen them in person. We went to the meet in. I don't know when it was. Was it in April Alon, or was it. Was it all the way back in September? September?
- [43:46]
David Vaucher
Geneva.
- [43:47]
Alain Ben Joseph
Watch Days with Louis Westfallen.
- [43:50]
Rob Nudds
Time Flies. I mean, they're great pieces, but like I say, they've not really changed from the original run. I love them. I'd like one. I really would. I'd take one.
- [43:58]
Alain Ben Joseph
So do I. And I'm very happy that they didn't change a thing. And it's a tribute, it's an ode to the grandmaster. And it shows also a lot of respect from one of the crown princes of the Arno royalties. And I don't know why. Often new leaders of heritage brands always come in and have the urge to change logos, fonts and designs. Sometimes when something is good, just don't mess with it. Evolution versus revolution.
- [44:44]
David Vaucher
Yeah, I'll just say that. Well, if I ever had a chance at a job at Swatch Group, it's probably going to disappear after I say this, but I'd love to see LVMH take a crack at Breguet. You know, clearly they know what they're doing with these. These revivals, you know, bringing brands back from not so positive places. So maybe there'll be a universe in some. At some time where. Where we can see LVMH take a shot at some of these other heritage brands.
- [45:08]
Rob Nudds
Okay, very good. That was an interesting one. I'm sure there are many more brands that we could touch upon if we had more time, but maybe we'll do another episode if more pop into our heads after we hang up the mic. Okay, next question. Possibly the last one of the episode, to be honest, is from Alexander. Now, this is a broad one, so get your thinking caps on. Is there a brand or aspect of the industry that has disappeared or slipped away in the past 10 years that you would like to see return? I'll give you a bit of wiggle room on the 10 years. You can give me 10, 20, maybe even 30 years if there's. If there's something that pops into mind that is not quite so recently evaporated.
- [45:46]
David Vaucher
Okay, I'm having a little trouble formulating this, so maybe Robin Allen, by agreeing or disagreeing, you can help me sharpen it. I think that there is a lot less accessibility to the hobby and watches were never meant to be completely accessible because that's the point of any luxury product. But as we will discuss on the next article whenever that comes out, this is also another topic that's very close to my heart because I'm behind priced out. I've been priced out for a long time and it just seems like paradoxically, as social media has made the hobby more. More understandable and more accessible, the watches themselves had never actually been farther from anyone's grasp, unless you want to go secondhand or gray market or some of these other avenues. But it seems to me like all of the brands that I aspired to own 15 years ago when I started to get interested, have actively said, nope, you were not in the club and we're going to move these farther and farther back from, from your grasp. And I know there's micro brands, that's something else. But from a legacy point of view, I miss that, that accessibility.
- [46:59]
Rob Nudds
Okay, I'm glad you added that last little caveat there to the micro brands because I was going to push back immediately, like on a couple of those points. Like, in some ways I feel the industry has never been more accessible because there's so many new brands popping up. Okay, affordable prices. What is affordable? This is the thing, right? You know, I feel like when we look, when we as like watch collectors, who are obviously the fortunate few, look at these watches that are coming out in their sub 1000, we're like, oh, it's affordable. But we forget that probably the majority of people right now, maybe not in our nations, but perhaps around the world, are not in a situation where 5, 6, 700 quid is something that they can just chuck on a watch. Far from it. I mean, if you listen to the news constantly, you would imagine that most people are living paycheck to paycheck. The cost of living crisis in the UK especially is like crippling people's disposable income to a point of it just not existing. So when I think, oh, it's an affordable watch, let's take our good friend Simon Ryan's recently successful project on Kickstarter, Monso as an example. Despite there's around 600 quid, starting price on Kickstarter went up to around 700. If you're a bit late to the Party. And that's a great value watch for what it is. It's incredible. But just because it's under a grand doesn't mean that it's necessarily something that people can just buy without thought. Far from it. You know, there's a lot of like established brands offering watches at that price point. Like you can get a Hamilton for the same price. So it's still a significant investment. That said, there are more and more brands I think of good quality, especially these direct to consumer brands like Christopher Ward in most cases. I know they have some retail relationships that like. Well, Alan, you know very well about that, but they're not the norm. They're more about relationship building and marketing than they are about actually having a physical brick and mortar retail store. So there is accessibility, but as you rightly defined, not so much for the brands like Breitling or Omega, certainly not Rolex these days. One other thing you said that I should push back on a little bit, although I think it was, I think it was meant in good faith. Watches were never meant to be accessible, you said. And I mean watches were always meant to be accessible until they became obsolete. Really? Or not always. Initially they weren't initially with a preserve of princes and kings and queens around the world. And then they became something that everybody needed because of the industrialization of the world. And then they became something else. And that's where we are now. They are that other thing where they aren't necessarily required to be accessible. They are required by the nature of their existence to be special and to be luxury and to be out of reach. And that's frustrating that we've lost the ability to buy the pieces from the big brands that we, we still respect and we have good feelings towards. But is it really a thing that we can say is a negative overall?
- [50:05]
David Vaucher
Well, I, I can't see their balance sheets. So I mean if it's one thing to price your watch at $20,000 if you can sell them, but if you can't, like you're just asking for a price that no one's paying. But you know, I would say like, it's, it seems a little bit, I don't know if like short sighted from brands is the word, but if you advertise your, your watch, your dive watch, your adventure watch, your sports watch as a tool and then you price it in such a fashion that it's going to be a, an object that's kept in a safe, you're doing yourself a disservice. Like, I'm not advocating for Omega to sell its diver three hundreds for a thousand euros or whatever, which perhaps they could because the margins on these things are quite large. But it just seems to me like you'd want to put these watches in the hands of people that could realistically do very cool things with them, as was the case, like you were saying, Rob, before they became luxury products. And if you could do that, that would handle the marketing. You could almost like ratchet back your marketing spend because Instagram would blow up with pictures of people diving with them in cool places or climbing with them in cool places and you'd sell more watches. So I understand the need for a luxury company to keep its prices high, but I think there's a lot of unintended effects that happen from that. One of which is brand erosion just due to the fact that people aren't using them for their intended purposes anymore.
- [51:24]
Rob Nudds
One of the things you said then actually gave me chills. The thought of an Omega Seamaster 300m professional at a thousand euros, it's crazy because you're right, I suppose the build cost of it is below that, almost certainly below that. And to think that, you know, because we're sort of jaded by the market, aren't we? Because we, we expect a product like that which is not unreasonably priced. Even now I think they've, they've pushed it a little bit in the last 24 months. I think when it was, when it was comfortably under 5,000, when it was still around 4, that was the best value, major brand watch on the market in my opinion. Now I think it's sort of, you know, there's a discussion to be had about is it still like leading the charge. I'm not sure it is anymore, but it's, it's an incredible product. And to think that it actually could physically be made for less than a thousand and okay, I don't think the brand would make a huge amount of money, certainly not enough to grease the wheels of that machine. But isn't that a thrilling thing to think? Like wow, like that quality could be created for that.
- [52:30]
David Vaucher
If Omega somehow came out with $2,000, 2,000 year old dive watch that had the Omega name on it, I think it would break the watch Internet and they'd have fans for life. They have a DNA and the heritage and the mass market presence to just crush almost every micro brand in that orbit of price and every brand in that orbit of price. And yeah, I just think as you're, as you were talking, Rob, I think there's a Huge opportunity to, to do that amongst these luxury brands. And the first one to do it, I think we'll get some dividends from that.
- [53:01]
Rob Nudds
Yes, you're absolutely right. The first one to do it, it would be phenomenal. It would just put everybody else in the dirt and a brand would have to prepare for it. They'd have to really build up to that. They'd have to know it was coming and then they drop something like that and be like, right, we're just going to sell like, like four times as many of these watches and we would have sold previously. We're going to completely pull the rope from under the feet of our competitors. Because you kind of get the feeling the reason why nobody's doing this is because there's kind of like this, like honor among thieves. You know, it's kind of like gentleman's agreement almost that like, nobody's going to do that, nobody's going to devalue the industry. Because if you do that, if Omega did that or if Judah did that, for example, I couldn't see Judy doing it. But if, if someone major like that really just flung a middle finger up everybody else and said, we're going to give the people something that's incredible, it's going to completely destroy your sales. Everybody's going to buy this. We might even put you out of business. They better hope they do put them out of business, because if they don't, they're going to have crushed the entire industry. Like, the only way that works long term is if when they go for the king, they kill him. You know what I mean? Like, they have to get rid of their competitors. They actually have to put them in the dirt because otherwise, if it lingers, they can't make the money they need to make to continue either. It would require an entire, like, cleaning house. Like, the whole watch industry would be scalloped out. There'd be like redundancies all over the place. Because if you release a watches €2,000 for a quality that you'd expect from like 5,6000 watch, then you are inviting a huge amount of pain onto yourself as well as your competitors.
- [54:43]
David Vaucher
Do you not think it's a gamble? For sure, it's a gamble, yeah. No, but I mean, anything's a gamble. But when you talk about taking such a 180 relative to what's been going on, it's a gamble. But you know, fortune favors the bold, right? And I don't see how the path that we're on is sustainable in the long term. And that's both in the watch industry and macroeconomically because both those things I think are very intertwined. But someone, someone has just got to try something different because I just see streams of new watches being released and they're nice, but I mean, for who are they being made? And I just think that something like just this is hypothetical, obviously, but a 2000 Euro Omega dive watch, huge. It would be huge news. It'd be the biggest thing to happen to watches in a decade. And to me that's a pretty sick. It's always a hypothesis, but I think that's a bit of a safe bet.
- [55:35]
Rob Nudds
But for whom does it have to be tried? You say someone has to try it, but for whom? For the consumer?
- [55:40]
David Vaucher
Oh, yeah, for sure. For the watch industry.
- [55:42]
Rob Nudds
Do the brands care about the consumer enough? Because you say, how can it sustain itself now? Well, the answer to that seems to be self evident. There'll be fewer watches going out of Switzerland and they will have a higher average ticket price and the audience of watches will reduce exponentially until like there's. The ultimate conclusion of this path is that there's one company that makes one watch a year and the richest man in the world buys it and that's enough to sustain that entire company. Right. Like that's a ridiculous example, but that's the direction that we're going. That's the Swiss market is trying to push consumers out of it and to attract a certain type of consumer that can buy multiple very high value watches with extremely high margins that offer that consumer the bragging rights of being one of the very, very few people that can afford it. So for whom does the industry need to do this? Not for themselves, really. For us.
- [56:33]
David Vaucher
Two words or two? Two very quick words and then we'll. I'll stop because we could go on this forever. It's for the consumers. And my last word on this is Moonswatch, I'm done.
- [56:42]
Rob Nudds
That's a bit of a mic drop, isn't it? Yeah. Okay, Moonswatch, well, let's discuss that. Maybe write an article to follow on from this discussion that we've started here. So thanks to the listeners that asked us those questions. It was a spirited 250th episode. We can't wait until we reach our 500th which will probably come upon us sooner than we can possibly imagine. The speed of things going as they are. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being engaged with us thus far in the journey of the Real Time show. And I hope that you're going to continue listening, following along, joining in with the TRTS network discussions and hopefully many of you will visit Geneva and come and see us in our new glass igloo outside the pavilion. By Lac La Man Geneva Watch days runs from September 4th until September 7th, so get your hotels booked as soon as possible if you don't have anyone to stay with while you're there because prices will skyrocket. And if you would like to be involved in the show, don't forget to get in touch. You can contact either Alon, David or me via our Instagram handles either ob nudds for me at Davau Q c h e R for David or at A l o n b e n J o S e p H for Alon. If you want to get in touch with Scarlett who's absent today but we'll be back soon, you can find her on Instagram @Scarlintheshire. That's s c a r l I n t h e S h I r e. You can contact us via email either Rob Alon or David therealtime show or via the contact form on the official website www.therealtime.com show. We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.