Loading summary
Transcript129 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Hello, watch fans, and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Alain Ben Joseph, our friendly neighborhood jeweler and an esteemed editor from Der Spiegel magazine and watch lover, Felix Dachshel. Welcome to the show, Felix.
- [00:20]
B
Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me. Great pleasure.
- [00:23]
A
So we were joking around offline that you are easily the most serious journalist that we've ever had on the show. So we're going to try and put on our professional caps today and do a good job so that you don't think too little of us. But tell us firstly, how were we introduced? Because we have a mutual friend in the watch industry, do we not?
- [00:38]
B
Yes, I think we were introduced by Hauke and he's a very good guy and he told me you have to do more podcasts and normally I don't listen to him. I don't believe him. But in this case I thought maybe it's a good, a good idea. So I know your podcast, it's really a great one because you speak extremely openly and honestly. So it's really an honor to be here.
- [01:05]
A
Well, I'm very grateful for Hauke's recommendation and I agree that trusting him normally is a terrible idea. Usually results in waking up at 4 in the morning in the gutter of some random European city.
- [01:17]
B
But you all made it with her this time.
- [01:20]
A
We're safe enough locked away in our studios and focused on talking about watches and your career in journalism because you have much experience and you have ended up working for De Spiegel, which of course is one of the most read publications in Germany and even known around the world, which is quite unusual for a foreign language publication. Well, as far as we're concerned, foreign language publication is right up there with L' Equipe and DeWalt and so on and so on. So tell us, how did your journalistic career begin?
- [01:48]
B
I think it began when I was in school because we had like a school newspaper and I didn't want to go to. To the classes, so I decided to be the editor in chief of, of our. Of our school newspaper. So this was just an escape from learning stuff, but it was a really good escape and I saw an alternative to the boring things I had to learn. So I had a. Had great fun leading the magazine at my school. And then later on I tried to study some serious stuff.
- [02:29]
But I really, really understood that journalism is the thing for me, which really fascinated me. And so I went to journalism school in Hamburg. Henry Nanshule. And yeah, this was the beginning and then I worked for several media de site Bias magazine and Tuts like rather leftist newspaper. And now I'm with Dash Speaker.
- [02:57]
A
You say it's not very serious, but of course like for some people the idea of being a journalist is just completely impossible. Like it's a pipe dream. It would never, never manifest. So you obviously have a talent for reporting and sharing your views and feelings on these topics that interest you greatly. And obviously one of those topics is watches. How did you come into contact with watchers? How did you become a fan?
- [03:20]
B
I mean I was always interested in watches. I can remember as a kid I was interested in flic FL and Swatch in quartz watches. This was always something which fascinated me, the time and the dial. So it was more like the surface of it. I was not really obviously not interested in movements. It was just, yeah, it was just fascinated by the movement of the, of the hands and so on. So this was always part of my life and but like expensive mechanical watches, I was, there was kind of a barrier. I was not, I didn't allow myself to be interested in, in expensive watches. So I, it was, it was a, like a distant dream. But I didn't allow myself to, to go further into the topic of mechanical. And then I think three or four years ago I had my, like my breakthrough when I bought my first expensive mechanical watch. And you know, luxury was always something which was, you know, my parents taught me luxury is rather bad thing. Yeah, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be humble and don't spend too much money on things. So this was.
- [04:50]
The approach. And then when I allowed myself to buy expensive mechanical watch, that was Omega Seamaster 300, the one with a fascinating sandwich dial. It was really the beginning some years ago and yeah, I told my colleagues back then we should do a piece on, on the watch hype. And normally, you know, I work for rather political and serious magazines so normally we would do rather distant report on it. But the more I told them about my passion, they really told me you have to write it about your life, about your emotions, about your ideas. And then it, yeah, it became a very personal, personal piece.
- [05:47]
A
You didn't join Desh Beagle as, as the watch editor per se, but because of you, the topic of luxury watchmaking and obviously that very intriguing period that you're discussing regarding all the hype that was quite new for the industry that made it to the way of the pages of Desch Beagle because of you and because of your interest.
- [06:06]
B
Yeah, right. So it was part of the coverage but only through economy. Economy topics. So not like a part on its own. So when I started to write like my first piece, big piece on watches, which was kind of confessions of a watch geek, to quote a very famous article, was quite similar. Not. Not on the same level as Gary Steingart's piece. Obviously not. Not the same quality, but the idea was. Was similar. So when I had my coming out as a watch lover, a lot of things happened. I got a lot of response from our readers, a lot of response from my colleagues. A lot of people wanted to talk to me about watches. Some friends asked me about recommendations. So it was not planned that I do more pieces on, on. On this topic. But when I saw the level of reaction, I really had the feeling I have to go on. So I started a regular watch column. And at the beginning I did it every two weeks. But then, yeah, I had my main job, so to say. So I have to find the right balance. So I do it now every three weeks, four weeks, and sometimes big pieces like interviews. Just had an interview with a Swatch CEO, Nick Hayek, for example. And yeah, this is something which provides me a lot of joy.
- [07:35]
C
Oh, so it's funny that you said coming out because when you said that your parents raised you to be modest and could we call it maybe a Calvinistic Protestant mentality of not showing off. Yeah, I guess you bought the titanium matte finished Seamaster 300. If you're talking about the sandwich dials or. So you went the North European style of modest tool watch. Do you feel guilty that you bought that watch?
- [08:06]
B
Yeah, in a way. I think luxury has a lot to do with guilt. And free yourself from this feeling of guilt, of being guilty. Because of course it's not really reasonable to buy a watch which costs 5,000 or €10,000. Of course that's not something you should do, but the things you shouldn't do are the interesting things in life. So.
- [08:38]
Of course it was a process. And still it's a. It's a extremely weird hobby that we have. I mean, mechanical watch. You can't explain someone on the streets what we do there and why we need these watches. So this is still. Sometimes I'm wondering what I do there, but this is kind of a liberation process, I would say.
- [09:07]
C
Did you tell your parents?
- [09:08]
B
Yeah, yeah, I told them at the beginning. Maybe they thought that I'm on a wrong way and they have to talk to me a bit more intense. But after they have seen that I'm really into the whole topic. I'm also interested in Craft and in history of watchmaking. So when I'm also interested in the cultural context of it, I think they. They accepted it. And now I bought a watch for my. For my father, Squale Divers watch.
- [09:49]
So he's wearing the watch now. And I also infected him now being.
- [09:56]
C
Into the hobby and writing for independent titles that can actually deliver real journalism.
- [10:05]
We find it difficult to be objective and even critical in the watch industry. How do you encounter that? Not writing for watch ecosystem titles or media.
- [10:20]
B
You mean to be critical and.
- [10:24]
To be honest?
- [10:26]
C
Yes. So, so objective. The brands are very much driving the narrative. They don't like critical voices. They want to control the story, the narrative, the output. Or isn't that what you encounter?
- [10:43]
B
I would say there are differences and there are different levels of.
- [10:49]
Of quality also in PR and communications. So there are some brands which are extremely professional and they know my role and they know the framework in which I write and report.
- [11:04]
But I would say it was also for them process to work with me with their Spiegel, because normally what they think what I do is doing a critical report and a really rather negative piece. So this is the expectation for Der Spiegel, because this is how we report on things. If we write about politics, of course, we can't say politician. XYZ is so cool and we all like him and he's the best. Of course we can't do that. But what I try to do is to be passionate, to write from a perspective. Perspective of a watch lover, but at the same time to be critical. And sometimes it is some. Yeah, it's not. Sometimes it was not so easy because they. Some of the brands want to control everything. Not only approve their quotes, but also approve the whole article, approve the pictures and so on. And I told them, look, I can't do that at Der Spiegel, so we have to find our way through. And after having discussed it, they accepted. But it was a.
- [12:25]
Process.
- [12:27]
C
Did Mr. Nick Hayek Jr. And or his team invite you for an interview or did you put in a request for an interview?
- [12:34]
A
Felix?
- [12:34]
B
No, we asked him for an interview. I visited the German Swatch headquarters in Ashborn, close to Frankfurt, and I met some comms people there. And I told them that for us it would be super interesting to do an interview with him. And.
- [12:55]
I didn't really think that it was possible.
- [12:59]
Because he knew that we would be also critical and we are not watching Focused Magazine. So I thought it could be difficult to get interviewed. But then I think it was after one week or two weeks they said yes in Beale. So it was our idea for our.
- [13:20]
C
Listeners that might not know Der Spiegel. Could we say you are the equivalent of Time magazine?
- [13:28]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's the biggest magazine in Germany, I would say still the most relevant for political issues. We have still a lot of readers.
- [13:41]
I don't mention any numbers because my numbers. I think my numbers are wrong. But we have a lot of readers. But if I write on the page or in the print magazine, I get a lot of response. So it's really a huge stage. Probably the biggest stage I could have in Germany, because if I remember correctly.
- [14:04]
C
It'S a weekly print magazine with obviously online presence.
- [14:09]
B
Yeah.
- [14:10]
C
We could call it liberal. And if I'm not mistaken, you have a circulation of 1 million.
- [14:16]
A
About.
- [14:17]
B
Yeah. Sounds. Sounds good. It's still really one of the biggest magazines. And the page is even bigger because Der Spiegel started really early in the Internet to have a big homepage. So it's really a big, big stage. And some of my pieces get.
- [14:37]
Like 150k readers or more. So it's really. It's really huge.
- [14:43]
C
So to finish up, the topic of Swatch Group.
- [14:47]
B
Yeah.
- [14:48]
C
Nick Hayek, obviously, they are a publicly listed company. They are a financial company.
- [14:52]
B
Yeah.
- [14:53]
C
Did they want you to take the angle from a helicopter view as an investment company, or did you come as a journalist coming from the Meteor D Al, as they like to call it in Switzerland?
- [15:06]
B
Also, we decided about the focus of the interview, the angle, and doing an interview for Der Spiegel, for the print, for the printed magazine. It has to be a bit more open, the focus. I can't be too detailed. We had a lot of. We had more discussions in the interview, which are at the end, not part of the interview. For example, we discussed.
- [15:34]
Different brands from the Swatch Group. But at the end, we had to decide, okay, it has to be accessible for our readers and for everyone. And in my Watch column, I can be more detailed, more focused, a bit more crazy in a way. But in the magazine, I have to be a bit more open, some broader focus.
- [15:54]
A
I did some quick research on the numbers.
- [15:56]
B
Yeah.
- [15:56]
A
Okay. So approximately 12 million people access De Spiegel content every week. So that includes combining print and online. The weekly circulation of the print magazine is still 724,000 copies, but the magazine reaches roughly three and a half million readers per issue. So considering this is 2025 and this is print media, that is incredible. Like, the reach is unbelievable. And just like with podcasts being a more, shall we say, investment heavy form of media than just going on a website or a blog or Twitter or Instagram to consume your news, Making the effort to buy, to actually pay a weekly amount, or to subscribe, go down to the local paper shop and pick up a copy of the Spiegel is incredible. It's a statement because you get feeling the people that read that magazine really read it and really consume every ounce of information within it. So for a watch brand, the platform you're working with is basically the Holy Grail. Everybody would want to be part of it. Obviously, the Swatch group agreed because they. They have respect for their Spiegel. And because it's outside of the traditional watch media, everything written within it comes with so much more credibility. The question is, how often are you, or have you been approached either professionally or personally by brands who want to be featured in Der Spiegel? And do you see any scope for maybe branching out yourself to satisfy the demands of these people that want to work with you but really can't be justified for a placement in Der Spiegel?
- [17:32]
B
That's a good, good question. At the beginning, when I started to write about watches in Der Spiegel, it was. For me, it was rather difficult because I had to convince them that I don't write a piece which is 100% negative. So when they saw that I write with a. Also critical distance, but more importantly, also passionate and with a love for watches, the brands really approached to me and asked me, could we do something together? But the understanding of doing something together is sometimes different to. To mine. I have to explain a lot. I have kind of. I have to do translations from their world or for mine, from my world in. In into their world, because of course I can't do a PR piece. And so this is. At the beginning, I think they. For. For them, it was rather a risk to work with their Spiegel or to. To open themselves. And then when they saw my approach and how I write, they came. Yeah, they came to me and said, okay, maybe you want to visit our manufacturer, maybe you want to speak to our CEO. And I'm convinced if you speak to people and if you convince them, hey, I don't want to do a hit piece. It's not about just getting an access to write something super negative. But at the same time, I have my. So my framework in which I work, so it has to be journalistic. Then if I explain it, they understand it, and then we can find the match. But at the end, it can be also negative for them because I can't promise anything. If they show me a watch and I think the watch is shit, maybe I write it. I give you an example. We had the Plompons Watch collaboration. It didn't convince me, so I just did a, I would say honest piece on, On. On Plan Swatch and how I think about it and it was rather negative. So this was something I had to discuss. Discuss with Swatch afterwards. But as you can see, having. Yeah, having had the interview afterwards, we find a. We found a way through. But at the beginning, obviously it was, it was tough.
- [19:59]
A
Yeah. I think a brand as powerful as Swatch does well, as I say, game recognizes game. I think they know full well that being in Despiegel is better than not being in Despiegel, even if the words you write aren't wholly positive about one of their products because the exposure just outweighs that. There are plenty of people that see the Blancpain Swatch collaboration and will read your article and say, okay, well, Felix doesn't really rate it. It doesn't really hit the mark for him, but forget it, it's less than €500. I'm just going to buy one because it's fun. You know, I also have that kind of like self imposed ignorance when it comes to stuff like that. I. I think, oh, it's cool. Is it good? No, not really. Do I need it? No. Is it going to enrich my collection? No, but it will make me smile and I would like to experience it. So I'll buy it even if the review is bad. That is genuinely what happens to a lot of people. And I think Swatch knows that you're going to get more sales than you are. Lose them. Yeah, actively. Through being present in a publication like Desh Beagle. Now, what came to mind to me when you were speaking was this recent definition or reclassification I heard on a fellow podcast, openwork by Collective, in which a long time journalist, watch journalist, had taken aim at content creators on Instagram and YouTube and whatnot, who take a lot of the journalistic space away from traditional journalists now in the Watch media game. But also this middle ground that I realized I have been occupying all this time without being conscious of it, I always regarded myself as a watch journalist. But she made it clear that there was a third category that should be referred to as maybe watch critic. So someone that may well be objective and do their best to maintain objectivity, but provide critique along the way and say, oh, this Blancpain Swatch collab, it's not very good, you know, the plastic feels a bit cheap, it's a bit lightweight, it isn't really befitting of the Blancpain name. Etc, Etc. Those are all valid criticisms based upon experience. Right. So that's valuable content, in my opinion, more valuable than somebody doing a dance on Tick Tock. But, you know, that's just a demographic thing. Yeah. What's interesting to me is when we started this conversation, I was very much of the impression that you were and had to be extremely journalistic in the traditional sense, as in, I will report the news and I will not color this news in any way. But in that last answer, you mentioned the Swatch Blancpain and you mentioned that you passed an opinion on it and you mentioned that when you talk to brands, you say, look, I'm interested in covering this watch, but I can't guarantee that I'm going to like it.
- [22:34]
B
Yeah.
- [22:35]
A
Now that to me is integrity. That's valuable. But that would make you a critic rather than a journalist by this definition. What do you think about those definitions and where do you see yourself?
- [22:45]
B
Oh, this is a very intellectual question. A good question. You're a smart boy, Rob. I like it. No, I like the definition. And I mean, writing a column, it's more, there's a lot of opinion in it. It's a mix of opinion and also reporting. So for me, it's important not to stay at my desk and write about something I haven't seen. So I want to go to place, I want to go to Switzerland, I want to go to Class Hutte, I want to see the manufacturers, I want to speak with watchmakers. And, but at the end, it's highly, a highly personal story and I always try to make it super transparent that it's not, you know, I can't, it's not the truth. I don't tell my readers, look, this watch is terrible. I just try to make it transparent. Why? I came to the conclusion that it's not good. But of course, this is interesting about watches, we can discuss things. It's not, you know, it's not, we're not discussing war politics. If you discuss about a certain political decision, for example, people tend to say, this is, this is the right thing, this is my opinion and I think this is the only way to go. But about watches, it's, it's different, it's, it's a personal view. And for me it's very important to be transparent. And in the case of, of, of the Blancpain Swatch collab. Collab. It was, I was a really A big fan of, of Moonswatch, and I'm still am. So this was the position from which I came. I was really positive, positive about the, the. The Moonswatch idea about the, the idea of bringing Omega and Swatch together and now trying to copy it a second time with a brand which is different. Blancpain different to Omega didn't convince me. So I was just transparent about my.
- [24:54]
C
Feelings while listening to you gentlemen. I found the article online behind the paywall. But the cool thing is I see the NATO strap of the Swatch Blompa on Nick's wrist while taking a deep inhalation of his cigar, like his late dad. The article is.
- [25:20]
Democrat, so that's already a big punchline of a headline that it says I won't ask a German to expand democracy to a Swiss. Which continues. Nick Hayek, Chef der Swachgob Pakt uber den concurrent Kampf mit Rolex House und Rechnet ab mit analysten speculanten un deutschen bessel vissern. Which in Dutch we also love BET waiters. It says, Nick Haich, CEO of the Swatch Group, opens up about a competition with Rolex and takes issue with analysts, speculators and German know it alls. So did he start off by commenting on your article or did he not know that you were critical about the Blancpain Swatch?
- [26:05]
B
No, I mean, I think he knew because I published the Blancpain Swatch piece months before when the Blancpain Swatch came out. So I guess he's a manager who knows a lot about his company and a lot about articles and journalists who cover watches. So I guess he knew it. But he was, I have to say, he was super open and he was in a really, how to say, a playful mode. So he was, he made a lot of jokes. He was attacking us in a, in a positive way, not in a, not in a negative way, but not in a rude way. But he really wanted to discuss things, also politics and, and we also, like, he also mentioned the Russia, Ukraine war and so on. So.
- [26:59]
If he knew what I, what I wrote about the BL Post watch before, he didn't. He didn't change his, his way to welcoming us and to be, to, to be open and, and, and honest. So I really have to be. Yeah, fair. And I have to tell you, he was super open. And normally if we do an interview, we have this strange.
- [27:27]
Process of approval of interviews. It's not the same in every country. I know that, for example, in the US they don't approve interviews, but in our case, when we did an interview, we send it to. To the one we interviewed, and then he can approve and he can check everything. And normally we get back a lot of. With a lot of red notes.
- [27:53]
They kill a lot of good parts of the interview. But he didn't kill the interesting parts. He really made it even stronger. So this was really interesting to see.
- [28:05]
C
So the Spiegel gives the right of insights, but not the rights to change, which all the big publications in the world do. That's what you're saying, right, Felix?
- [28:17]
B
No, the German way to do it is we send it for approval. And if they say, no, this was misunderstood, this was not what I. What I said, or this is. I now I feel. I feel it differently. They can change things. So this is sometimes for us, annoying, because if you have a really strong interview and you have a lot of strong quotes, they can afterwards change a lot. And especially when you have strong comms teams, NPR teams, and they intervene heavily, it can really change an interview to the negative.
- [28:57]
C
So to round up this topic, compliments to you because it's rather known that Nick Hayek Jr. Is very autocratic, doesn't like criticism and is very selective who may interview him. So kudos to you, Felix. I will see if I can purchase the article because I'm now very interested to read it, to switch up gears, if I may. Yeah, I want to take a helicopter view and fly high and see how you analyze the watch industry. What is on top of your mind that you've noticed and you want to discuss with us trends, things that fascinate you, things you find odd or weird or are wrong.
- [29:45]
B
This is a big question. I think I have a lot of answers, or different parts of an answer, maybe to begin with. A thing which is really important for me, coming from the outside and as a journalist who tries to explain this strange world to our readers. The most.
- [30:08]
The most maybe complicated thing about the watch industry is it is too isolated, you know, from the outside. You know, it looks like a circle, closed circle. And that can be something positive because I use it as an escape also from a really dark world. You know, the world is really dark. A lot of negative news. And I am a political person, but I. I prefer to talk about watches these times, you know, because the news are so dark that the society is so polarized. So.
- [30:49]
Like this isolated world of watches, it's good in a way that there's a wall around this world. It has a good, good part in it, but also a bad part, negative part. Because if the decision makers, the managers, the people within the industry, if they don't see the world around, they don't see developments which are important for them. And now in a moment in which we are, I would say in a crisis, the watch market is going down and it's a moment of decision. You know, some brands will survive, some will get even bigger, some will die. It's, it's hugely important that you know, the people in the watch industry, they see the signs of, of the time, they see what, what happens around them. And this is something which is highly ambivalent, you know, world which is closed, fairy tale world. That's beautiful, but it's also dangerous.
- [31:50]
C
I would say we're both on the same page. Hence we started this podcast as a passion project and we're independent, unaffiliated and non commercial. So this is an escape for us because I do the same. The world is so dark. I digest international news maximum twice a day, mornings and usually evenings and watch a content I digest literally like a drip feed all day long to focus on the negatives of the closed circle that you've encountered as an outsider, either as a consumer or a journalist. Please elaborate on that.
- [32:29]
B
First is, you know, price point. The prices went up and went up the last years and if you are in a moment of inflation and of, in a moment of a bad economy and if people can't afford to buy, you know, a ton of watches, it's maybe not the best sign to go higher and higher with the prices. This is one important point. But another point would be.
- [32:58]
You know, this beautiful, strange, sparkling circles of watches and wonders. For example, it's such a, it's such a beautiful event, but it, it is also completely disconnected to the world and some, some brands are more interested in, in the world. I would say some are extremely political to like for example, Numos Glass hutted. They are always extremely proactive in their PR strategy. They are, they publish political statements. Maybe this is sometimes too much, but I like smart people in the industry. I like people who are informed about the world around them. And if you are, you know, if you're not interested in the world, it can also risk your company and your brand because I mean, watches are not an isolated.
- [33:59]
Not an isolated, how to say they are, they are connected to the society, trends are created in, in the society and then you know, it. They also are part of the watch industry. So you have to be connected to the real world to see trends, to see developments and then yeah, you can, you can really be.
- [34:31]
You can really like see the future maybe, and be responsible. I would say.
- [34:39]
Maybe this is a bit too abstract. Sorry, but maybe. I hope you. You see what I mean?
- [34:45]
A
I'm not sure it is too abstract, although it is interesting to try and pull that abstraction into some kind of clarity and give people an idea of how it may manifest in the industry going forward. You talk about the industry like it's like a glorious escape from the real world in many ways, like it exists in almost a walled garden, but nevertheless is informed by the weather raging outside the walls, as it were. How do you think that we will see the effects of shifts in society and global optimism maybe taking somewhat of a dive in the industry? Do you think that it's typical for the Swiss industry to close its eyes, dig in its heels and say, no, no, no, everything's fine, we're just going to keep making more beautiful things out of precious metals and covered in diamonds? Or are they going to respond tangibly to a world that is very much changing? Or is that absolutely the opposite of their role?
- [35:41]
B
So we discussed Nick Hayek's role and this is something which he also underlined in our interview for him. So his understanding is that he has to be open for everyone and Swatch has to be open for everyone and being part of the democracy in a way. And.
- [36:03]
This is a completely different approach. Some brands want to be exclusive. This is part of their identity, being, being exclusive. And the beautiful thing about the industry is that you have all. You have always both. You have, you know, a brand in every niche, so to say. So you have like a brand like Swatch, you can buy a Swatch for €100, you can buy a MoonsWatch for 250, but you can also buy a Rolex or Omega or, you know, Patek, if you have enough money. So this is, I would say this is also the. Interested, the interesting thing about free market that you know, every niche find its own brands and offers. So. Yeah, but you mentioned Switzerland, of course, it's. I think it's a. It's a different story. Switzerland and Germany, if I like, if I compare the watch industries, it's. It's different. I would say so Germany is sometimes, as I mentioned, numerous. Sometimes a bit more political.
- [37:13]
And a bit more connected to the world around in Switzerland. It's also part of their success, of their success story as a country, because it's a country in which you travel through the mountains and you see the beautiful lakes and you see the beautiful cities and it's all so clean and well organized. You Feel like, okay, the world is burning, but everything is fine. So this is my Switzerland feeling.
- [37:39]
A
I absolutely know what you mean. Actually, it's strangely cathartic, but also a bit disassociative to be in Switzerland at any time while. Yeah, the world is on fire. Now, we've talked about Nick Hayek Jr. Quite a bit, and he's obviously a very influential and important man in the landscape of watchmaking. Let's take a hypothetical scenario. Now, Felix, you are hosting a dinner party or a fondue party, probably because it's going to be for you and a lot of big cheeses. Lol.
- [38:08]
B
Yeah.
- [38:09]
A
And if you could invite three more guests. Okay, so there's four of you at the table. There's you and three people, Nick Hayek excluded. He's already had his day in the sun. So you get to pick three people. Who would you pick? Who would you like to get to know and pick the brains of and why?
- [38:26]
B
You mean from.
- [38:27]
A
In the industry?
- [38:27]
B
From the washing industry?
- [38:29]
A
Yeah.
- [38:32]
B
I would pick Ilaria Resta, the new CEO of Audemars Piguet. So this is super interesting, her role now, the. The adult in the room. I mentioned I worked for Vice magazine before, and I see some similarities between Audemars Piguet and Vice magazine because.
- [38:50]
Audemars had an extremely interesting journey the last 10 years and it went up and up and up, you know, and the culture of a company in which you have such a crazy success, the culture sometimes is a bit delayed, you know, it's. It is sometimes a bit broken and it, you know, because if you are so fast, you can't sometimes take everyone with you. And in her case, she's. Now, she's not from the watch industry, so she also comes from outside. So this is something which is super interesting, her views on the industry, but also her role at rp, because she has to make it even more professional and like building the structures and finding right balance between being crazy and super fast and also being professional and finding a good structure for the company. So there was a long explanation.
- [39:56]
Second, I would take Roland Schwerdner, the founder of Nomos Glassute. He's a really interesting German guy. He's not super open. He's not a guy for the stages. He's a bit shy in a way.
- [40:12]
He is a guy who is highly political.
- [40:17]
He reads a lot and, you know, when I discuss watches with him, we always end up in discussing.
- [40:28]
Yeah, political topics and. And things which are not related to the watch industry. So he's super interesting and then someone you already had in your podcast, Maximian Busa, because he is.
- [40:46]
I can't, you know, I can't mention anyone who is. Who's so innovative and in such a, you know, game changer. And I really like MB and F. Like it's really more art than watches. So this would be an interesting combination, I guess.
- [41:06]
A
It would be incredible to see how those three interacted. I mean, Max is extremely easygoing and very generous with his time and his knowledge and experience. Obviously Roland, of course Alon and I both know very well, having worked with and for Nomos for years. So.
- [41:24]
You'Re picking a very formidable component to the dinner there because Roland is a great thinker and someone who you never really get tired of talking to, but you never know where he's going to go next because he's an interesting chap. What do you think, Elon?
- [41:40]
C
Well, we'll have a language Barry, because I hardly had any political discussions with our dear friends at Nomos because my German sucks and his English is not good enough. So that might pose a good in Dutch.
- [41:59]
We also, the Dutch are also beethoveters Bessel vessels.
- [42:07]
If I may jump in. Very interesting.
- [42:10]
Table guests. Talking of Ilaria and Audemars Piquet, do you think it's a good thing that the watch ecosystems brings new blood in from abroad? Because you've pushed the narrative a bit. Maybe that it's better making it professional. So I'll add a second question to it. I'm not allowed by Rob Rob is my journalistic coach, but I'm quite sure you are the pro here that can handle my two pronged question. Should Adam RPK professionalize I. E Become more corporate?
- [42:52]
B
Dear Felix, I mean it's always a question of balance. You know, AP.
- [43:01]
Is, you know, the the thing which was super interesting when I visited the manufacturer in Leu last week.
- [43:10]
Is the knowledge and the archives of ap, which are really impressive and maybe the role could be to tell a bit more the story of Le Brasseux in the AP houses. So there's a kind of a distance between Le Brasseus and the AP houses to say it abstractly. So I think it's a good decision to bring someone from the outside. I don't know her personally, I didn't meet her yet, so I can't tell you if she is exactly the right person, but I just follow her on LinkedIn. I see what she is posting, what her focuses are, what her topics are and I think it's the right moment for someone from the outside, for Apartment. Um, but yeah, it's difficult because, you know, we discussed the closed shop, the closed circle of watch industry. It's difficult sometimes to come, to come from the outside. It's also difficult for, for female CEO. So it's still unfortunately, still really.
- [44:28]
Male dominated world. So this is a challenge for her, but she could be a role model and I'm super interested in what she does there.
- [44:39]
C
Finish off the corporate part of AP and create a segue to why you think AP is so successful and then extrapolate that to Rolex and Patek. And if you think they're the Holy Trinity or what is your holy trinity of watchmaking, that may be as a journalist and also as a collector if you want.
- [45:00]
B
So this is, this is risky for me because I want to be, I'm a watch lover, but I also try to stay a bit distanced. So I can't tell you which brand is better than the other.
- [45:17]
What I can tell you is.
- [45:21]
In my eyes, AP is successful because they have a really clear vision of the icons and they don't. They had some experience, maybe.
- [45:31]
A bit too away from their icons. But you know what I really understood when I visited Le Brasseur Royal Oak. The Royal Oak was not successful at the start. So this is a really.
- [45:47]
It'S. So it's such an interesting journey this icon had because it had really years of really tough years at the beginning. But having such a clear icon and having such a, you know, clearly defined brand, this really can explain the success of AP and yeah, the Holy Trinity.
- [46:13]
Probably you are right, this is the Holy Trinity. But.
- [46:20]
That sounds really religious, right? It sounds like we pray for Rolex, AP and Patek, but this is what we have to do. We pray for the waiting list. For being number one on the waiting list. Right.
- [46:36]
A
It does sometimes feel a bit too much like a religion, I have to say, but got to believe in something. And I think that it helps to be humble before one's own God, whatever that may be. And if it happens to be a wristwatch, it could be a lot worse. Talking of wrist watches specifically, what are you wearing on your wrist right now?
- [46:52]
B
I am wearing a seat Weller 16600 with a helium escape valve. So this is a watch I really, I really love for, for, you know, daily life. And this is the watch which gets the most wrist time.
- [47:10]
A
How many watches do you have in your collection now?
- [47:12]
B
Oh, should I, should I say it, is it, is it okay to say it or maybe it's, it's dangerous.
- [47:19]
C
Maybe it will affect Your maybe it'll affect your objectivity.
- [47:26]
B
Between. Not too many, between 10 and 20. I would say the quartz watch is included.
- [47:32]
A
What do you think?
- [47:33]
B
Of course my approach is I want to be open for everything there should be it. I don't want to be, I don't want to have ideology. You know, some people say quartz is not a quartz watch, is not a real watch and they are a bit snobby and a bit too, how to say, too sophisticated. But I.
- [47:56]
I like any watch, you know. Or to say it differently, like every watch has the, the chance to find the way to my heart, you know, it can be a quartz watch. I, I mean I'm wearing the Moon Swatch a lot of times for for example in the gym or while traveling. So there's not a, there's not a clear.
- [48:22]
Yes or no to quartz watches watches. It really depends on, on the brand. And I mean precision is still a topic. So a precise quartz is still a lot of more precise. So.
- [48:38]
Precise watch is important for me.
- [48:42]
So I'm not, you know, I'm not the sophisticated watch lover who says only mechanical watches. This is, in my eyes, this is something which is kind of strange.
- [48:53]
A
Yeah, I think the true sophisticate is leaning back towards quartz. I'm sure all the quartz watchers listening to this episode now will be thrilled to hear that they've got just as good a chance of finding their way into your heart then a mechanical piece. So I think that that open and joyful moment is a great place to end this interview, which has been one of our more open, relaxed, philosophical and wide ranging chats that we've had on the Realtime show thus far. So Felix, thank you very much for that. We appreciate it greatly.
- [49:19]
B
Thank you for having me. It was such a pleasure.
- [49:22]
A
I can well imagine it will get you back on in the future because I would never tire of chewing over the latest current affairs with you when it comes to watches particularly. Maybe we'll steer clear of politics as we start a spin off podcast about that. But if any of our listeners do have questions for Felix that you'd like us to run by him or to get him back on the show to answer them, please get in touch via the usual channels. You can do so via our official Instagram handle that's @therealtime show or via our website at www.therealtime.show, you can just find the contact form there and submit a question or query. Or you can get in touch with us via our emails either Rob or Alon or David the Realtime show. And if you want to contact Scarlet, our fourth host, then please get in touch with her via her Instagram account. That's scarlintheshire S C a r l I n T H e S H I r E We will be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's innovators. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.
- [50:22]
C
It.