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- [00:00]
Bahman Tagrovi
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Rob Nudds
Watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds and our resident provocateur, David Vaucher.
- [00:14]
Bahman Tagrovi
Voshe, the company Vochet. Maybe why I'm asking this because before he was saying that for 600 years the family has a house, a house in Swiss. That's fair. And I thought maybe one of the part of the family moved to America and other farmers. No, no.
- [00:29]
David Vaucher
That might very well be the story. But I received no money from Vocer Watch Company.
- [00:34]
Rob Nudds
But we'd love some money from Vocer Watch Company. So the man who just accidentally interrupted my excellent intro there is none other than Barman Tagarobi of Jacob and Company, the watchmaker extraordinaire of global traveler, world trainer. Everything basically under the sun. Whatever Jacob needs doing, he's the man to do it. We are sitting here in The Jacob & Co. Boutique on Rudiron. It's Rudiron, isn't it? We are here and not in our glass igloo. The climate is absolutely wonderful. It's beautiful. We've been baking all day in there because it's like a greenhouse. Because we were, well, how can we say this? We were suddenly removed from our igloo while the security forces set up for the Phillips auction that's about to commence at 6 o' clock this evening. So we've come over the bridge with Barman, who is our last guest of the day, to have a quick conversation about the Geneva watch days fair and what his experiences have been like working for Jacob and Company. So where should we start? Should we start with a little bit about you? Who you are, where'd you come from? Would you like.
- [01:31]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah, it was a big pleasure. So, well, you were introducing me. Well, Bahman Tagrovi, I'm officially the, the, let's say the title people like to give titles. Some lead watchmaker instructor. Yeah, well, I was born in Iran and very. In very young ages my family moved to Germany. That's where I also learned watchmaking. I have to say German watchmaking has also a good portion in the industry. It's. It has also its own traditions. But I was very from the very beginning quite influenced of the Swiss watchmaking because I learned my profession at Chronoswiss. Chronos with used to be a German company, but as this, as the name says, Swiss is. Everything was made and manufactured in Switzerland and we were then assembling that, testing everything in Germany. So quickly after my apprenticeship I was aiming to go to Switzerland and especially Geneva, as I said, it's really the El Dorado of watchmaking and watches and having mastered several, let's say, processes in watchmaking and especially in timekeeping. So that was my big passion, to make a mechanical watch as precise as possible. I then from working in traditional, let's say, old watch companies, I moved eight years ago to Jacob & Co. And one of the big reasons why I moved to Jacob & Co. Was that really, it's not about criticizing other brands, but other brands have a lot of restrictions. I like to develop watches, I like to design watches. And I realized in these companies you have more restrictions, more things that you're not allowed to do compared to things you're allowed to. So the creativity is very, very, let's say, canalized. And finally, you're actually just executing what they want. But The Jacob & Co. Jacob has such an open mind and he questions everything. When you, let's say, you say, oh, this watch should be not bigger than 40 millimeters. Says why? Who wears it written? Is it written in stone? A watch shouldn't be bigger than 40 millimeters. If I, if I'm restricting me on 40 millimeters, maybe by the mechanical exception I want to do, I'm not able to do it. So we are doing and the designs, you see, we make an Astronomia, we make the Godfather, we make the Chiron, we make Bugatti watches. They are all completely different. Has nothing to do with astronomy, with the epic X which you see on the table, or the brilliant with the famous baguette setting, or then the billionaire. You see, actually each watch could be from another company, could be an old company, but it's all under the roof of Jacob and Company because Jacob and we do the things we really like to do tomorrow. I don't know if we one day can make a watch or can cook donuts. We do it.
- [04:34]
David Vaucher
So we just met recently, but my nickname on the show is resident provocateur because I ask questions to push buttons. So does, and this question really only is relevant, provocative for a company like Jacob and Company. So I'm going to ask, does Jacob and Company actually care about timekeeping?
- [04:53]
Bahman Tagrovi
That's a provocative question. That's a provocative question towards the whole industry, actually. Do we key. Do we care about timekeeping? So the industry mechanical watchmaker is pure luxury. There's no doubt on that. Any quartz watch for a hundred dollars will be more precise than the most expensive mechanical watch. I mean, Seiko is a brand we shouldn't mention here. Who is trying to find a Combined mechanical watchmaking and electronic watchmaking or electronic watchmaking. We care just the things we are doing, they're hard to measure. A multiple axis tourbillon is hard to measure its precision. I cannot put it on time balance machine and just check it. We care because, well, if it's not precise, the clients realize that if every day, after four or five every day it goes five minutes too fast or too slow, they will realize even if today we are not using the watches to read time, something must be wrong. So we are in between the tolerances of, let's say average chronometrical watchmaking. So it's usually plus four, minus four. Sometimes it could be more because when we look at some movements which have a very big mass to move, I think depends how the person is wearing the watch. It can influence it a little bit more. When we look at the astronomy, the whole platform is rotating. And if it's a very active person, let's say it can influence us. But in general, yeah, we care.
- [06:33]
David Vaucher
I would love to see the person wearing an astronomy playing like racquetball or something, which is what I picture when you sit active. But no. Another question I want to ask to, to go off something. You said, you said there are no restrictions. I get it. But at the same time, the restriction might be the expectations one might have for Jacob and company. So in other words, your restriction would be the expectation that everything you do is crazy. So if you wanted to do something very refined, you might make the most beautiful, most refined watch ever. But people are going to say, oh, like you're not supposed to do that.
- [07:03]
Rob Nudds
What they say that about Jacob and Coat. Hasn't Jacob created that environment where they're able to do anything?
- [07:09]
Bahman Tagrovi
It's kind of like the early Gerald Charles that we were talking about the other day where it's like a bespoke.
- [07:13]
Rob Nudds
House, but it's, it's bigger than that now. What do you think? We'll let you answer the question. You know, we're not having a conversation.
- [07:19]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah, yeah. We had this actually two years ago. It's going to be, it's going to be four years. We released a watch for the Bugatti collection called the Jean Bugatti. It's a highly complicated double retrograde digital chronograph with two tour vions and a third balance wheel dedicated, dedicated to, to the, to the, to the chrono, to the chronograph function. And from the front it looks very classic. The case also is quite flat watch for what it is. And when I was Showing this watch. We were showing this in the first show. The people thought, where did you get this watch? Are we. They were looking around, are we a Jacob and company or where are we? When I was turning the watch the backside, then I realized, okay, that's a Jacob Co. What is happening inside is. Is really crazy. Laughing already as I was just explaining the features. Yeah, that's true. That's something. We have forces in our company, in the board, because they see this influence of, let's say, traditional watchmaking with the super high grade finishing with the very simplified movements. But in the end, that's not what Jacob likes. It's just as simple as it is Mr. Pagani. If you'd ask him to worry, bake an SUV, he looks at you, okay, I could do it. But that's not what we like to do.
- [08:49]
David Vaucher
So I'm realizing as I'm going through the. The list of questions I might ask people, they don't apply to a company like Jacob. They just don't apply. And a question I usually ask people is, okay, there's a lot of uncertainty in the market, tariffs, et cetera. What are you doing? But I don't think that applies to you because it's almost like, who cares? You're just going to keep doing what you're doing. Is that a correct assessment?
- [09:10]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah, I would say this was the case. But since we do also watches, which are more for a bigger clientele, let's say watches from, let's 15 to 35, 40,000, it's a bigger range. These people are more careful. But when we go in a higher level, all about above 250, 300,000, because they're so exceptional. These people are looking for that. Bugatti was presenting their car last year. 250 units were sold in two, three days. I mean, there's a car for $5 million and was done.
- [09:51]
David Vaucher
I find that it's regardless of what you're doing, it's very easy to get bored and jaded and you get to play with the cutting edge all the time. Do you ever get. Does that ever get boring for you as a per. To not have any limits? Because as an engineer, limits push creative. And not saying that there's no technical excellence with what you're doing. There is, but not having a constraint in a way can be a little bit boring as well, because you have. There's no rules, whereas the rules sometimes are the fun. And how do you feel as a technical professional working at a company like this?
- [10:20]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah, actually, it happened. What actually is Saying this, this is this. There are periods coming up when you. I don't want to say lost, but this is a little bit this feeling. Because sometimes Jacob gives us just a hint of an idea and you have no branches to grab. You don't know where to start with the two. But he feels that also because he has a vision of it and then he sees when we are not going towards his vision, he gives us a little bit more. Then this gives us. It's also a little bit a taste story after a while, you know his taste and also the taste of our clients. We do a lot of pieces, exceptional pieces which are based on ideas of clients as well. We are very open to that. Jacob's DNA is actually bespoke pieces for clients. It started with jewelry. Jacob were making all these exceptional jewels for these musicians, rappers and then the people, the celebrities in America. And we do this still for watches. I have to admit the first dragon we did, which is an astronomer dragon astronomy, which inside has a dragon sculpture, which became a very important piece and very famous was actually the main idea came from a client. He was saying the astronomer is crazy. There's so much space in it. What about putting something in it? This was giving Jacob the idea. Oh yes, he said, and some kind of an animal. And Jacob thought, oh yeah, a dragon would fit because of the shape of the dragon. I mean, I think a horse would be difficult to put it in.
- [11:53]
David Vaucher
Yeah, but that sounds like a constraint actually. Cooper, why not try and work to put a horse in there? But yeah, I could see the dragon being obvious.
- [12:01]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, I've always thought that what watchmaking needed was more horses in.
- [12:06]
Bahman Tagrovi
Well, funny wise, we did one, but was an engraving of a horse, not a 3D sculpture.
- [12:12]
Rob Nudds
That sounds pretty acceptable. Now listen, we were supposed to meet at the pavilion during Geneva watch days. Obviously it's one of the massive events of the year. One of three biggest, I would say alongside Watches and wonders in Dubai watch week. But we've been moved back over to the boutique which is lovely for us. Thank you for hosting us here. What's it like for you operating out of the boutique while the event is going on? Do you feel disconnected from the action? Would you rather be over there working? I mean, watches and wonders, you're in the Four Seasons, right? So why have you chosen to be here and not there?
- [12:47]
Bahman Tagrovi
So the one big reason is that the pavilion over there at the lake is considered to be a space to attract the people, have symposiums, have speeches. And it's a built up structure. So if you were saying you were cooking there inside. And we would like to receive not only jewelers and journalists, also clients. Clients are traveling to Geneva during this time. And we have so many, let's say, exceptional pieces to show that we cannot show over there. We cannot sit down with the client and ask him sit on a cube for half an hour and watch at $2 million watches. So anyway, this street is hosting so many boutiques with famous brands. So people, for them, it's easy to come. We walked 10 minutes, we were here and here. This is our environment. The people get also come into us. That's in our spirit. And we are more comfortable to show the pieces here. We can go through the whole collection. Sometimes the client doesn't even know what he wants to see. He wants maybe a sports watch or he wants. And we cannot carry all our collection over there. But for us, as a Geneva brand, it is important to participate. We like this show. Hopefully also in the future we will continue that. And this year we have a beautiful showcase there with three pieces. Astronomy Regulator, Bugatti Tourbillon, and it is the dual time Tourbillon as well. So three pieces, which were recently released in the last one and a half years. So we are presenting actually a good, good choice of novelties over there.
- [14:28]
Rob Nudds
Where in the world does Jacob and company find the greatest success? Is it very localized in certain places? Is it very obvious to you where your customers are coming from?
- [14:36]
Bahman Tagrovi
Obviously, the United States is the biggest market in terms of volume, also value. We have our flagship store, the whole Jacob and Co building in New York and Manhattan. And that's if you want to say it's the biggest market. Right after that, it's the Middle east with Dubai. We have a beautiful boutique in the Fashion Avenue in the Dubai Mall. But I don't see Dubai as a market because there's so many people traveling there. People have an apartment, they're staying for one month, and then they live, I don't know, in Buenos Aires or in Nigeria or whatever. But they like to come to Dubai, they like to purchase. They feel also very safe there. If it's from a simple, let's say, $5,000 watch to a $1 million watch, they can wear that. We know places in Europe where it's. Any watch is a danger, any luxury watch. So Dubai or Middle east is really the strongest in the United States. And then we have local markets, like, for example, Mexico. Mexico is a growing, growing market in all terms of luxury. If it's closed, luxury brands are closed, everything because the country is Better and better. They have a very strong automotive industry, although most of the European cars for the United States are manufactured in Mexico. So there's a big surrounding industry of suppliers. If it's like we know it also in Europe or elsewhere. So these people are obviously getting, having more purchase power. And we especially have a very strong partner in Mexico and we do a lot of special editions which are only available in Mexico. And that's also something. But we are continuously growing in the sense that we recently opened Japan, a beautiful boutique in Japan. We have a very good partner in Singapore. Singapore is a very, very big watch market. A lot of collectors are based in Singapore. And then also. Well, we even reached Australia and New Zealand this year. So the forest spot we could go and so on. South America, Africa is something which we are aiming to go. Africa is. Well, I don't know so much about Africa, but I know it's a difficult place to settle down. But we are looking, we are checking. We have a lot of people who would like to open a boutique under our name or take our brand as a retailer. Just what is limiting. This is our annual production. We have an.
- [17:30]
Rob Nudds
That was my next question.
- [17:31]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah. We have an annual production of 5,000 pieces and around a thousand pieces never reach a boutique. These are bespoke pieces we do especially for clients or for a certain reason, as I said, from Mexico. So around 4,000 watches go to boutiques through the whole year. And you can imagine that's really not a lot. And Jacob doesn't like to open a spot where there are three watches and you can see maybe one FA kicks and a brilliant set.
- [18:02]
Rob Nudds
I am very intrigued by this because I must admit I expected a lower volume of production because of the exceptionality of the pieces. I mean, I remember the full diamond bangle that you showed me last time and you told me the settings, you know, like it's all the stones are actually slightly different sort of heights and shapes and so you have to adjust every setting to ensure that flawless finish on the top. You're thinking, well, you're not making 5,000 of those a year. That's for sure.
- [18:28]
Bahman Tagrovi
For sure.
- [18:29]
Rob Nudds
But in recent years there's been a lot of noise in the media about people getting their arms cut off for expensive watches or shot even murdered.
- [18:40]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah.
- [18:41]
Rob Nudds
In broad daylight for a Rolex.
- [18:43]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah.
- [18:44]
Rob Nudds
You mentioned before we came on air that you chosen to wear a more low key piece today and you always do when you're on the road because you travel a lot.
- [18:51]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah.
- [18:52]
Rob Nudds
And even though Jacob would gladly have you walk around with a flying triple axis tourbillon rocket ship on the wrist. You prefer to be safe. When these horror stories of people being attacked for their watches were popping up in the news on an almost weekly basis. It's died down a bit now, but when that happened, did you notice any kind of drop off in your sales? And I feel like it's worthwhile asking this because with 5,000 pieces a year, you've got enough volume there for there to be some noticeable fluctuation.
- [19:26]
Bahman Tagrovi
Yeah. Yes. And what, what came up very quickly was if we offer also a special insurance. So there's a brand who was offering this insurance. If you do this too. While this is not. We, we sort of. We took it in our mind, we thought of it, but no, no insurance and we didn't have a real drop off. The thing is also these people were who are executing these attacks. They are not. They don't know what this is and they don't know this Epic X. And I have to say astronomy is really not an everyday watch. This is like as a smoking. You will not walk around with smoking buying some croissant. So it's a special occasion watch. I heard attacks on people with diamond watches. A diamond watch is whatever you do, whatever brand it is, the criminal sees something bling bling. So he attacks the person. But no, not really. And as I said before, we have the really strong markets are places Singapore. Oh wait, that something happens in Singapore. Not even allowed chewing gum in Singapore. So. And Dubai is the same. Then also Japan, Tokyo. That's, that's. That's a really safe places.
- [20:49]
David Vaucher
You know, it seems to me, it's sad we're having to talk about this, but it seems to me with Jacob and company, I don't want to be presumptuous and use the word solution, but your watch is to me and this is someone who's probably never going to be a customer. And I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just the truth. But your watches seem very impractical because they're very sculptural. So they're art. So if there were a problem wearing them out, why not make them into clocks? Right? That seems to me to an astronomy as a clock seems obvious because it's probably been done before by someone hundreds of years ago. So has there been any discussion around doing that? And if not, what's holding you back?
- [21:26]
Bahman Tagrovi
So we actually did an astronomy table clock that works in product development for Chapman Play. We did this, we did that. And just clocks is another business it's like making, let's say, clothes and shoes seems close, but shoe production is completely different than making suits. And we did that. We just released also a new collaboration with Bugattin Lalique for a table clock. It's a beautiful piece for the table table. And this video just coming back to the story. Why I'm not so often wearing this, this. This bigger timepiece when I'm traveling. It's not only because of. Of safety, it's just, it's. It attracts attention. So even customs. I'm traveling, I have no time. Sometimes the customs is not about checking if I'm doing something, something irregular. The guy is just interested. He says, what is this? And I like to speak, I like to talk, but sometimes I just need to go from A to B. And that's the thing. And some. It happened to me at the airplane. The guy is looking. No, it was car rental. I'm waiting. The guy is looking, looking. He's with his wife as he's looking himself. He was wearing also a very beautiful voice. He's looking, he's looking. And current always takes a little while. Me, I don't know what they always type. I don't type so much things. I usually. I click most of the. But they type, they type. The guys looking. After a while, I look at him. I said, it is what you think. He said, is it what I think? I was wearing the Chiron, the Bugatti. Yeah, yeah. He said, is it that? And the wife looks at me. He's the very Italian cop. He said. She said, he's all the time whispering my ear. I think that's the Chiron. I think that's the Chiron. I said, yeah, yeah, come, come closer. Let's. Let's look at it together. He said, yeah, I read so much about it. Is it the. Does it work inside the pistons or is it just an anime sh. On in 3D animation? I said, no, no, here, you winded it. So the wife doesn't exist anymore. The car rental wasn't important what car they give. He said, yeah, take any car. I'm occupied here. So that's the thing. These are good situations, of course, but in total, well, I have a mission. And then when I'm on the spot, I wear what I can wear.
- [23:46]
Rob Nudds
Brilliant answer to a brilliant chat. And thank you again for letting us come over and sit in this lovely environment and talk to you about watch and your expertise. Always fascinating to talk to you, Bamboo. Thank you very much.