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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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B
Watch fans and welcome back to the Glass Onion outside the pavilion at Geneva Watch Days 2025. We are joined by Mathieu Havalan of Ulis Nadan to talk about a very exciting watch that's laying on the tray in front of us. We're going to get straight into it because Matthieu is one of the most common guests on the Real Time show. You've been on maybe three or four times already and we love having you here because you're a great talker, you're a great representative for the brand and you've got great shoes.
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Guys.
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C
OG I feel the heat.
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B
So talk to us about this new watch in front of you. Matthew, what are we looking at here?
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A
So pleasure to be on the show again, guys. Thank you for the opportunity. So we're launching this year the Freekex Crystallion. You know, Freekex goes back to 2019 when we wanted to actually go from one product at a time to build the collection of the freak. And people really thought that we were crazy to put a crown on the frick and to lower down the price to 20k something Swiss franc, which ultimately years after that became really one of our best selling products. And this time we wanted to challenge ourselves on the meteor, on the craftsmanship. The way I talk about our mission as watchmakers is to advance the watchmaking industry, you know, through piring technology like silicone and also unmatched craftsmanship. And I think that's really a definition of what I call by, you know, unmatched craftsmanship. I like to say that Crystallium is a kind of a high tech. So I'm going to tell you more about that. It's the second time that we do Crystallium. We did it the first time for the free case Purple Crystallium edition for Watches Switzerland, our retail partner in the UK and the US we made 10 variation 10 dice. And this time basically we wanted to do a goldif version of that material on the free kicks. So it's a very tough process. We wanted to make 100 of them. Ultimately we're gonna make only 50 just because it's too costly and you know, the whole process makes we have to make several dice basically to have one finished product. At its core, Crystallium is Ruthenium. So it's the same metal family as platinum, although it's 10 times rarer than platinum and it's obviously more expensive. And we go through quite a long, it's almost a week process of vapor crystallization of the Rustonium. So basically we grow Crystallium with a technical and chemical process. And the result is something very shiny, something very strong, and the raw material is gray. And then we apply a rose gold PVD on the dial. And then we are also applying, how to say, a varnish, a black translucent varnish on the side to have that nice fume effect ombre dye. And I think the result is absolutely stunning.
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B
It's honestly not something I've ever really seen before. Like the, the fume effect is absolutely incredible. Yeah. May I have a closer look at it, please, Because I want this watch on my wrist. Okay. So have a look at this. It's. It's even better in real life and I'm sure it could possibly look on camera. How can you keep innovating? I mean, the freak is already an icon. And I mean that in the truest sense of the word. You know how we feel about it, you know how we feel about. At least not down in general. But this is taking things to another level that we never saw coming. Where does the creativity come from?
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A
We go back to the, you know, to the brand mission. Why do we innovate? The, the mission of the brand, it's to inspire innovation and to foster human ambition. I mean, think back of the quote of Pod Navid Narna. You know, back in, you know, 1876 when he was about to change the game in marine chronometry, he was saying, if it's possible, it's done. If it's impossible, it will be done. And the way we managed to basically, you know, take over the leadership of the British, of the French in terms of marine chronometer and ending up, you know, supplying the top 15 heavy in the world is because we had that mindset. And it's because we kept innovating, making a better product, that we ended up basically, you know, to be the market leader of marine chronometer. So at un, we, we think differently by nature and, and we really believe that real progress happens when you explore beyond what's possible. Rolf Schneider, which I wish I would have met, you know, the owner of Midi Stana, who acquired the brain in the 80s, was saying that great ideas come from inventors, dreamers, thinkers. So he was pretty much saying the same thing as Paul David Nardin, you know, with his own words. So it's our raison d'. Etre. It's why we do things. And obviously how do we inspire innovation in our world is by advancing the watchmaking industry through pioneering technologies and a mass prime material. Therefore, every time we launch a product, we need to make sure that there is a component of that, whether it's on the craftsmanship, whether it's on the mechanics, whether it's on the technology. We have to bring progress to the industry. If you think about, for instance, the grinder technology, the mechanism, the automatic mechanism we have on the Freak one, on the freak s, it's a fact that's the most effective automatic winding system in the industry. In 30 years from now, it will be free of patent. If it's still at that time the most effective automatic winding system in the industry, other brands will use it. Same what happened with silicon, which we pioneered in 2001. We, we also, you know, have, you know, we're gonna. I'm just giving you an example. We, we patented in A. In 2006, an advancement on the silicon technology called the diamond seal, right? We, we apply at sigatech, our silicon lab in the, in the Swiss Valley, some silicon, synthetic diamond on the silicon to make the silicon even more robust through time. And now for me, for instance, it's to make sure that we have that in every single watches. And today we don't have that in every single watches. So it's like that red thread of innovation that needs to be really a common pattern for every single product we are launching. And therefore, in the Metedar, there is a way also to experiment something new. That's what we've done also with the silicon marquetry on the blast. No one has done that before. You have, you know, a marquetry of straw, marquetry of wood. So I think there is even innovation that we can bring in the artistic dimension of UDI standards through the Metedar. And then you'll see for the, for the Frick, especially next year, we're going to celebrate, you know, 25 years of fricks. We're going to launch something big. And again, we are really pushing the limit of, of what currently is possible in the watchmaking industry and in the Freak collection.
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B
I want to take this in a slightly philosophical direction, and it's a purely speculative conversation. When the Freak originally came out just at the turn of the millennium, it brought silicon to the forefront of everybody's mind in the watchmaking industry. And I remember early on in my career writing a great many articles about how silicon was the future. Now, obviously, there's still some years to run before that technology would fall into the public domain. But I wonder now, after seeing many innovations in the years since, whether or not silicon will be the future of watchmaking and whether watchmaking has changed sufficiently to almost go backwards. Because, I mean, un's fortunate in this sense because you have an incredible history. Like, it goes all the way back to the marine chronometer. So you could pivot very easily. Some other brands, younger brands maybe, couldn't. My question is these technologies that you're developing, as fascinating as they are and as efficient as maybe the winding system you're discussing is, are they the preserve of other brands, or is it really something only you can do because of your abilities and also because of the brand that you are? It's, it's. It strikes me as questionable whether better is always better in the watchmaking industry, if you know what I mean.
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Yeah.
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You know, because, you know, a quartz watch keeps better time than any of the watches we're wearing. But that's not why we're here. We're not here for, like, absolute accuracy. We're here for innovation, for beauty, for craft. And the great example you just made, the silicon marquetry. I mean, you've taken the internals of the watch and you've made it the aesthetic point. So my question is, if I can drill it down to something, do you think that in, let's say, not just five years or six years, when the, when silicon technology will, you know, be in the public domain, but in another 30 years when the winding mechanism is in the public domain, will people adopt it, or is it just your thing?
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A
You know, when we were doing mine chronometers, obviously it was not about making a beautiful timing object. It was to make the most accurate tool possible to avoid people dying at sea, to give also a competitive advantage to nations to discover new territories and also to gain advantage over other nations. Right. It was a vital tool then. So that's obviously the first period. Then if you look at the second big period for Instalang, which is the 80s and 90s, that's a period where watches became a luxury object. And therefore, we are not saving life anymore making innovative timepieces. But again, I go back to the mission. We want to inspire innovation and foster human ambition. So in regards of the watches, yes, we want to bring progress. We want to. If I think about why is the silicone and why is the silicone an amazing breakthrough in the escapement is because the escape plant, as you know, can be magnetized. You know, also that with all the shocks that the escape plant wheel, the anchor are taking, you know, every, every second, every minute, every hour, every day, those are really the most vital components of the watch. But as a same time, the most Fragile component. So the goal really is to, to improve, you know, the, the temperatures per se. Same with the grinder, you know, the goal is to have to, to be more user friendly and that's why the freecast, for me it's a, it's a, it's not just the first automatic double balance wheel watch on the market and still the only one. It's just the proof to show that our winding system is the most effective on the market because we're able to function watch it that shouldn't be functioning with an automatic winding system. So in the end, again, it's to be, you know, more user friendly to have something that works, you know, automatically as opposed to be manual wine. We are still investing in the sphere of maybe the next step of silicon. Actually the next step of silicone in my hand, in our world is already the diamond thing. It's a UI reality, might become another brand reality in the future. And we are still investing in the space of the future of gaspring maybe to try to have a watch that can operate and work without a hairspring at all. And also improving the power reserve and so on. That's why, you know, it's like hard R D where we do, we do invest. At the end of the day it matters to us because it's who we are. We want to innovate with a purpose. Not just to innovate just for the sake of innovating. And we want to innovate to inspire because through the product we want to inspire beyond watches people to innovate people to be, you know, a better themselves people to, to push the boundaries in their own category. And that's why for instance, we've been associated with this Global 3000, you know, the supercar rally, because all those guys are really sharing that mindset, you know. And for me that's really the right way to, to be into automotive. You know, that's why we are not doing F1. That's why we are not launching a collaboration with another car brand. Because this is conventional gumball 3000 is our unconventional version of doing something in the supercar world. You know what I mean? And last but not least, because we are not just innovating. For us, you know, our Silicon Lab Sigatech, which we co founded in the year 2000, 95% of the supplier goes to competitors. 5% of the output is for UN. 95 is I will not name because I think it's not a, it's not the right place to do so. But we've got Many, many, many watch brands that are our clients. Same goes for the animal dye, Dans E Colon. You know, I had a client yesterday visiting Dans E Colon. He said to me, mathieu, I was amazed to see so many dyes made for other, like, big, big brands. And why are you not talking about that? I say that that's. I don't want to be bragging about that. It's an independent workshop that is home 100% by East Ghana. We make some of the best enamel dye in the world. And, and yes, we happen again. We make a thousand enamel dyes a year. About 100 for UN 900. Where do you think that goes? Wow.
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B
I mean, it's. It's incredible to hear and it's, it's humbling to hear really, that you, you have so many activities that affect so positively so many other brands and it's great that you don't talk about it. Do you sometimes feel like you wish you could talk about it? I mean, it's a story that lesser brands would, would ride until they died, you know.
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Yeah. But it's not, it's not the values of the brand, obviously, you know, especially through social media, through the podcast, you know, through the content we create. I want to make the UN serie more known, you know, that's why, for instance, we've did that, we did that collaboration with Amor ig. He's the, He's a French Swiss chocolate and pastry chef.
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B
It was incredible.
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And, and he's the. He's highly talented. And the reason we did it is again, you know, if we say that we are different, if you think different, we do that in the product. But it has to be also done in the way we do, seeing the brand in marketing, communication. Hence also the, that the collaboration with Amori Gishon and the video of him building that massive freak in chocolate has been seen, I think 330 million times.
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B
Wow.
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But about 160 million people. So basically you've got 1.8% of the global population that have seen the free video.
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I have been forwarded that video over a hundred times. My friends.
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Yes.
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My family.
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Yes.
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And I wouldn't reply. Thanks. I've seen it. Amazing, isn't it? Released on Cool then.
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So I love the crystal, by the way. The crystal is the most. I. I like. What is that made out of?
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Sugar?
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No way.
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So, in fact, you know, I've got, I think I even had friends like, you know, I lost completely, you know, track of them, like 15, 20 years ago that messaged me on LinkedIn on Facebook. No way about that. Yes. Reconnecting with me. So that's how, you know, that something really went completely viral, you know, and global.
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C
I begs the question, who ate it.
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Has so many kept.
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It's kept in his laboratory, workshop, slash, museum in Vegas, who is based in Vegas for now the past 10 years. And it has a. It has a whole, you know, facility where there is a constant, you know, humidity and temperature so that you can keep basically the spiritual life. So.
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C
So the hall of fame of chocolate.
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Yes. I mean, it's private, but I had the opportunity to visit him, Degas, about a year ago, and that was insane.
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Amazing.
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So, you know, when that mission, in fact, I think at UN goes, I think we have a bigger mission about and a role in the watchmaking industry, then you don't brag. You know, I was taking that reference of brands, you know, doing that much and saying a lot. UN is definitely, I believe, the opposite. And my role and the role obviously, of the. Of the UN teams is to make sure that, yeah, we tell more of the stories because it has to be known.
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C
Talking of storage, you touched upon a topic I wanted to raise now is the material you guys have in house and you've championed enamel, grand feu and many different techniques of it. Exactly. Classical, fantastic. Watch the marine.
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Marine.
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The diver, even the pateau, hands on the diary are fantastic. So every detail you guys, you do unique with the independence you guys have. Again, that's so wide group. And with you at the helm and the youth you've literally transcend and the energy. Are you guys letting go of these classic collections or are you using all these amazing pieces, watches and wonders? You saw the diver. I now see the freak X. Another freak is going to come. Talk about R and D technology pushing the envelope further. Are those talking pieces or is this the future for you and you're letting go of the tradition?
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A
Yeah, it's a good question. I think in the end, it's a fair balance. When we develop product, obviously we, you know, the product plan is already set for until 2031. 2030. 2031. I can tell you that the global direction in term of design language is to go slightly more contemporary, slightly more classic. But when I say slightly, because we are not a classic brand, I mean, at least, you know, it's not what you standardize today. I would say that we are a sporty and contemporary hyology brand. Having said that, when we'll have the opportunity to, you know, redesign a freak xl, you know, redesign, you know, a Marine at some Point, you know, those collections have to evolve around time will definitely add a dash of timeliness, timelessness, a dash of elegance. It means having shape that are slightly more round but still with, you know, with the nervosity as opposed to having something super sharp, you know. So we are very conscious of having designed that last. But so you might see some development also in that classic direction. But not like classic classic. Because at the end of the day, you know, if we want to embody that spirit of being a pioneer, doing things differently and thinking differently, we can't have a me too product. It's within the product, it's within the marketing, it's within the messages and so on. So just to give you an idea, we wanted to launch this year. I don't know if I told that in a previous podcast, but anyway, we had developed like four years ago, a new marine with an integrated bracelet. We were supposed to launch it to launch the piece this year. And back in February last year when I was just appointed MD of UN we took the decision to cancel that product. Was the product bad? No. But the product was not UN enough. It was too conventional. So it cost us a few hundreds of thousands of franc gone. But ultimately we're gonna, we should be able to launch that product in 2027 and that product is gonna be amazing and it will be very un. You know what I mean? You won't be able to say ah, but you took inspiration from that. It look a bit like that. No, it would. It would be like a proper Marin of real estate.
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C
Why I also raised this topic based on my knowledge as a retailer and also with our community of collectors, is any sword is a double edged sword. A coin has two sides. Johan Kraft, the famous football player, the Dutchman. And the saying every advantage has a disadvantage because you guys are pushing the envelope so much and it's innovating the whole industry that has a price ticket. Your value for money is very high, but it's hyper hology. So people sometimes forget you add a lot of value in manufacturing calibers on your marines top years divers. And the entry level is actually very accessible and you get great bang for your buck, as they say.
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A
Yeah.
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So I point that out. Do you guys experience that in that headwind of pushing the envelope, innovating, that maybe consumers forget that you have that or are you letting that go on purpose and you want to push the brand outwards?
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A
I think it's a matter of sequence. It was important that in the last, you know, four or five years that we really establish the freak as a collection Freak before was not a collection, you know, before it was, you know, every year or so or every couple of years, you know, a freak being launched. So we started really I think with the free cast in 2019, then the freak one, then the freecast. So we have a collection. But you see it takes. I remember having like a couple of years ago a discussion with George Bamford in the. At the Geneva days or maybe two and a half years ago, not two years ago. And he was saying to me, wow, I was wearing the free kicks first gold. He said, stunning. Can I have a look at it? And I said, yes, that's, you know, the watch we launched four years ago. And he said, yeah, never had an opportunity to have it in my hands. So even someone who is very much into, you know, the industry had never the opportunity. I had never had the opportunity to handle, you know, a free kick. So it takes years. So therefore, I think we will really not close the chapter, but really we will finish a journey on really focusing a lot on Frick at the end of next year because we are celebrating 25 years of FRICKS. And then you're going to see also more of the other lines and more also of the entry being pushed. In fact, in terms of communication, in terms of a new development, what I can say today is yes, I would say the mid to high end has more traction but also it's where we are focusing and bringing about this. So you know, the diver Air that retail for 38,000 Swiss franc that we launched at Watches and Munder, the success has been beyond what I was expecting. You know, I don't want to be too much in that situation where we have, you know, to allocate the watches to the concept. But as a matter of fact we are because most of our ads have already committed to the final clients all their annual locations. And we are trying already to give visibility for next year's allocation. So it's new to be in that situation, to be honest for you. And so it means also that we are doing the right thing. But then what I can tell you on the price range, to be honest today, to have product that are at 9 or 10k Swiss Franco, it's not right for brand positioning. And the result of that is because we've been also launching cheaper product in the past. And if you think about that, the, you know, the, the Marine that was really the bestseller of UN. That was. That has been discontinued about 10 years ago. The one, you know, with the element, with you know, the rubber scrap, I mean, you see that type of marine that we. We manufactured from 23, 24 to 2014, that was retailing 10 years ago, 9,800. So today would be like, you know, 13, 14, 15K. You see so and so from a pricing positioning in the future, the entry of UN will be probably in the range of 13,000 Swiss, you know, so 14, 14 and a half thousand euro. We are manufacturing just a few thousand pieces a year. We are not a volume brand, we are, you know, an independent brand. And the access will be slightly higher than, you know, it is today. But I would say when I look at the product portfolio performance, we do a steel well on the, you know, the top year. We do quite well also on the diver next, you know, the entry level diver with a lot of tech components, innovation in the material also that retail for like 12k is also doing well, but from a communication, from a positioning, yes, we focus on, on the higher end.
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B
Matthia, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. We have to end the show now, unfortunately, but it has been, yeah, a brilliant, brilliant episode and thank you so much for taking the time out of what I'm sure is a very busy schedule to come and sit with us here and for braving the heat of Geneva. We will see you soon. If you've enjoyed this episode, please like, follow, subscribe, comment and check back in with us soon. We'll be back from Geneva, watch days in a moment.