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- [00:00]
Rob Nudds
Hi and hello, watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds and our friendly neighborhood jeweler. Calling in all the way from Amsterdam, Alon Ben Joseph. I'm in Copenhagen today. Alon. Weather's terrible. How is it where you are?
- [00:16]
Alon Ben Joseph
Same. And it's funny that you always say all the way.
- [00:21]
Rob Nudds
I've become a running joke by now. You know how it is.
- [00:24]
Alon Ben Joseph
It is. And it's actually fun. Fun because you are truly the modern nomad. Every time we record you in a different place, but same quality, same energy, same passion. We're back for a mailbag episode. Q and A's. It's, as you always say, bursting at its seams. Thank you to the TRTS community because the majority of the questions come from there. If you've been listening to TRTS for a while and didn't dare to join the TRTS WhatsApp community, please do. We don't bite. It's a community of like minded people. We joke around. It's a watch asylum. You can say anything, you can ask anything. And we're definitely no snobs.
- [01:11]
Rob Nudds
No snobs. I feel like you're referencing. Who was it? Tlc.
- [01:15]
Alon Ben Joseph
Tlc, correct. Yeah. They had no scrubs. No, but I'm saying that. You know why I'm saying this? Because some of the watch communities are rather snooty and although we have heavy collectors in there, and I'm not referring to their waist or weight, but the size of their watch collecting boxes, they're not. And that's what I love about trts. We do geek out. We are focused on the Indies hotel luxury, but not so solely.
- [01:49]
Rob Nudds
Yes, it is definitely a very democratic and open community. So if you'd like to join, then all you have to do is drop us a message. You can contact us via the contact form on the official website, of course, at www.therealtime.show or send either Rob Alon or David at the realtime show an email or via Instagrams, which will run through at the end of the show. As usual. Talking of snobs, I noticed that a question came in from Richard, probably our most active questioner, to be fair. Thank God for Richard Swords. He keeps us, keeps us in plenty of. Keeps the mailbag full, that's for sure. So this one from Richard says, I remember the Watch Snob, a tongue in cheek column covering watch advice in, I believe, Esquire magazine. I don't need to know who it was, but do we know if it was a central figure in the watch industry. Do you have any idea alon the identity of the watch snobby?
- [02:42]
Alon Ben Joseph
I actually don't. I have actually not read it. It's interesting that he mentions Esquire because our newest host, Scarlet Baker is very active for Esquire. I don't think it's her. If I think of watch snobs, it's a nice guessing game actually. It, I guess it's a British journalist or a British watch fan and then I personally would bring my guessing game down to two. It's either Robin Swithin bank, whom strangely enough I've never met but love his articles, or it should be the infamous Nick Fawks. What do you think, Rob?
- [03:30]
Rob Nudds
Oh, well, I can't believe you've never met Robin. That's actually bizarre. You certainly can't miss him when he's at an event. He's an absolute man mountain. But he's an icon in British watch journalism. One of the first guys I met when I started writing for a blog to watch back in 2015. I met him at TAG Heuer Goodwood Festival of Speed and frequently run into him. He was most recently at the Nomos Forum, the fifth edition that you unfortunately had to skip on. And he gave a very good speech actually, which I quoted in an article that I wrote a couple of weeks after seeing him perform it. He would have been my number one guess. I'm sure he's more than able to adopt the character of a watch snob. Although I don't think he is a watch snob really. I think that he'd certainly be able to play that part. But Nick Fultz is a really good guess. I wouldn't have thought that off the top of my head, but yeah, I, I could definitely see it being him. He's a character, isn't he? I saw him at the GPHG hosting and he was absolutely superb.
- [04:25]
Alon Ben Joseph
He is indeed. I've met Nick a few times and have him had on stage.
- [04:32]
Rob Nudds
He's.
- [04:33]
Alon Ben Joseph
He's fantastic. I love to read the Patek Philippe magazine which he semi runs, but his knowledge is fantastic and I don't know, have you picked up the new show that George Bamford and him created? I think they've done two, three episodes now.
- [04:51]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, of course, I'm. I'm really impressed with it. I mean, great production values as you'd expect from George and a legend of watch journalism. They're talking to one of, I think Britain's leaders in the watch space. In George, of course, we can't wait to get George back on the show again. He's always a good laugh, always great to have him on. I've never met Nick, funnily enough. So we've got one each. Maybe we could introduce our potential watch snobs to one another. But we actually don't know Richard. I'm afraid we don't. We'll have to do some more digging. Now you've asked us the question, we'll go and sniff around and see if we can find out who it could be. If anybody knows, feel free to right in. But yeah, I mean, those two titans of the industry are potential, potential identities for the legendary watch snob. Let's move on to another. Let's move on to another question. We could stick with Richard, of course, because he's sent in about five, but let's try something else.
- [05:47]
Alon Ben Joseph
I want to pick James Bichi, also a member of the TRTS network. So he sent in a rather funny question, although not that funny. It's actually a very valid one. He wrote, no fingers pointing. Not at all. But just curious how many of you have purchased a used timepiece, later discovered it was a bit more beat up than your initiator, found the same watch in a better condition, bought that one as well, and then worked on selling the first one to, well, you know, close the gap and maybe not be out as much as dollars.
- [06:34]
Rob Nudds
Yeah, this happened to me. It wasn't a negative experience at all, really. I don't know where I encountered it. I think on an Instagram page somewhere along the way. Casio Surf Timer. I think it's from the early 90s. It's an incredible looking thing. There was a couple of pieces released in the similar style using the same movement with different dial configurations. The Casio Surf Timer and the Casio Skywalker. And they are multifunction digital watches with very animated displays, rotating bezels, rubber straps and coated cases, only coated in, I think a plastic covering. But very attractive, very of their era watches. They look like the sort of thing that David Hasselhoff might have worn during his stint with Knight. As Knight Rider in Knight Rider. In Knight Rider and I saw it, hunted for one, found one. Nearly all of them were beat to hell, to be fair. I bought it, I got it. Now I'm not really a vintage watch guy because I don't like things to be beaten up and battered. I like them to be box fresh. And I like to either put the scratches on them myself or keep them as pristine as possible, depending on the reason for adding the watch to my collection. But this one, this one annoyed me because it had lost so much of its elegance, which is a strange thing to ascribe to a digital watch. But it was so cool, so perfectly balanced, so many colors interacting so harmoniously on a dial. And I felt like this was just a perfect watch for that period of time. I decided to try and seek out as fresher one as I could find. And I think the original one I probably paid maybe a couple of hundred for. Yeah, probably about 250. 260, which is no mean amount of money for a Casio, especially not one in that condition. And it was, it was pretty trashed. And then a few weeks later I found a seller in Belgium who was selling not just the surf timer but also the Skywalker which was almost flawless itself. It had a little nick on the back of a log where somebody had tried to change the strap, which is understandable because the rubber straps they put on these two watches so long I could probably wear them as a belt. But I managed to get the pair of him off him for I think €400. I think it was, you know, a rough split of about 2. About 220 for the surf timer and about 180 for the Skywalker was how we broke it down. But 400 for the pair and they are perfect. Bar that one nick on the back of the Skywalker. The surf timer is absolutely new, old stock. Even the printing on the rubber strap is still intact and this is just screen printed. It's, it's nothing special. So I got them both and then I had the beat up one and I posted some pictures of the surf timer, especially on my Instagram and LinkedIn and Twitter probably back then. And I had a lot of interaction on those posts. People were like wowed by the condition of this new one. And I'm not saying that I stirred the pot a little, but it almost immediately after that maybe there was something in the air, maybe a lot of people had seen them as I had done and decided to go hunting for them. The prices skyrocketed so I managed to offload the beaten up one that I probably paid about 254 for around 4:40. So I sold just the old beaten up serve timer for less than I bought two box fresh surf timer and Skywalker's and obviously recouped all of my money originally and then knocked off maybe another €160 from the price I spent on the pair. So I ended up getting those two for around €240. All in. And I don't think I'd let either of those watches go for less than close to €1,000 because they're such extremely good examples of a period in time that we're unlikely to re experience. And especially nowadays, given the 90s revival and the nostalgia in the air, I could see them having a market even at that inflated price. Tell us your version of the story, Alan.
- [10:36]
Alon Ben Joseph
So the answer is short and simple, of course, and you should not be ashamed of doing that. It's actually maybe therapeutic and it's maybe the only way to go if you're into the vintage game especially. My advice always is Nike slogan, just do it. You like a watch, buy it. You're not married to it, unless, of course, you bought it for a very special occasion in your life to celebrate that occasion. And if you had it engraved or not, but with the vintage one, you sometimes need to sacrifice something. So therefore I said, just do it. Experience it, learn from it, enjoy it, or maybe get disappointed, because that's also valuable on your journey as a collector. So I have done it, especially with Speed Masters. I still do it. I have a gap in my OCD tendencies and hoarding habits of having a 3, 2, 1. I miss the 861. I have an 1861, a 3861, so I have a tendency to fill those gaps. So I'm still hunting down an 861 that I like. I've done it with Navitimers by Breitling, Portuguese by iwc, a bit with Heuers, But Heuers are actually rather fun because there are a lot of eclectic versions of Carreras out there, different cases, different variations, especially if we go through the 60s and 70s of the Heuer catalog.
- [12:27]
Rob Nudds
I.
- [12:30]
Alon Ben Joseph
Am a little bit doing it with a Patek, and I'm actually currently on the fence. Should I get the perpetual Calatrava, which is not called Calatrava, but I nickname it that way. And if I do, do I keep my annual calendar? Do I let it go? So those are little things I contemplate. So you can do it either just same watch, better condition, vintage, or because I bought the annual calendar when I couldn't afford the perpetual calendar. So do I perceive my annual calendar as a poor man's perpetual. So this is all deliberations that keep me occupied quite some time. I've done it, obviously with Explorers by Rolex, so explore ones modern 36, modern 39, modern 40. And then I said, and sometimes I just kick myself in the tuchus. Do you really need a 36, 39, a 40, 40 is too big. So I don't have OCD. I say tendencies and I try to curb my own tendencies. My wife has a lot of patience with my tendencies and watch collecting tendencies. I do it with my sneaker habits and collecting habits as well. I usually sneakers that I love, I double up. It's more difficult with watches, obviously because it takes more of your budget. Those that I love, I double up if I can. I don't buy and sell sneakers and that's why I like the watch collecting hobby better. Because sneakers give me stress. Because if you keep them too long in your cupboard, they crumble. They literally crumble or the soles fall out due to bad glue that they use. So there is a. It's a ticking time bomb. Sneakers, watches give me tranquility. Jean Claude Biver said it beautifully. Watches are for eternity. And he's right. As long as you give them a bit of tlc. Don't do too crazy stuff. Do a maintenance once in a while, they'll last. They'll become antiques generations. So I'm very much happy to spend a lot of my hobby money for watches. I got rid of my car bug, so I cooled down on that and I'm pushing more and more into watches. And I've said this on air many times, this podcast is not good for me. I'm buying more and more. Rob, we had a little chat before we started recording. I didn't even tell you my newest NWA New Watch Alert. But you know what? I'll keep you in suspense. I'm going to post it in one of our sub channels of the TRTS community, which is the Wrist Shot channel. Yes, we actually have one of those and some of our dear members are very loyal and post almost every day. So it's very much fun. It's a lot of fun. So that's for my 2 cents on this topic. Thank you for the question. I think it's a beautiful segue to Lawrence's question. Another avid member of the TRTS community. I just touched upon the topic of giving watches a bit of TLC and especially vintage. So he asked. I'm still recovering from a price quote of about €1,700. So 1,700 for a total restoration of the Angulus wristwatch that my girlfriend wears. He's talking about 950 for the movement, 230 for the case, and 500 for the dial restoration, which is more or less what I paid for the watch in the first place. Also, some watches I found cheap Breguets or Piaget I never picked up because I expect the service cost to be exuberant. I'd be interested in other watch service or repair cost horror stories Any cautionary tales from for you to share?
- [16:59]
Rob Nudds
Well, from what I've heard in recent times, and I must admit that I've not had a watch service for a couple of years now, so I think I'm pretty much out of the loop and I don't have access to the service costs that I would have done when I was at the bench. But I have heard some stratospheric amounts being quoted for the servicing of very very basic watches and movements and also a brand's increasing refusal to tackle the problem you request them to tackle rather than applying an entire overhaul to the watch or nothing. Now I have an example of something that occurred a couple of weeks ago here in Copenhagen. I was around my friend's workshop. He's a watchmaker that works with Archina as well and he had in his hands an Omega Dark side of the Moon ceramic. It was the sort of light gray dial version with the solar with the charcoal esque colored case. Quite a handsome watch. I've never been a fan of the Dark side of the Moon. I don't like the fact they're 44 plus. I'd rather they'd kept them at the standard Speedmaster or even better for for my money would have been to shrink them down to 39 or a 40 even. That would have been lovely. Anyway, one of his clients had dropped this watch off with him and it had stopped working. And he had already been to the authorized Omega dealer in the area and asked for a quote and they said that the dial foot was broken off the watch and the dial was unstable. In the case, however, it wasn't the dial that was stopping the watch from moving. It was the fact that one of the screws in the movement had dropped out and had simply just fallen in to the escape room. And with a little shake once we got it to the workshop and we had a look at it under the microscope, we were able to restart it. Of course that screwed was still floating about inside the movement and would need to be removed or replaced post haste so that it didn't cause any more damage. That could have been cataclysmic for the movement's longevity. But the interesting thing was the dial foot on this dial had come off. It was still held in place by the clamp in the movement wasn't causing any issues. The dial, because it bears on the underside of the internal caselip, like around the chapter ring wasn't moving, it wasn't leaning on the pinions, it wasn't leaning on the hands. It wasn't causing any problems whatsoever. Maybe you could argue it was a micron or two off to the right around the date window, but it really wasn't causing any operational problem whatsoever. Omega refused not only to do the service without addressing the dial issue, but rather than fixing the dial, they insisted that it needed to be replaced. Now, the problem with those dials is they are extremely expensive, running into the thousands, literally thousands for the dial alone. And so the quote they'd come back to him with was around €5,000. To have the whole thing stripped down, to have a dial replaced, to have the movement serviced and fixed, even though it was just simply a screw that had come loose and then sent back to him. And, you know, dark side of the moon watches, they're not the greatest investment if you're looking to get a return on your money. And so they don't sell for anywhere close to their retail on the secondary market. And with that kind of money being outlaid, it was just totally not worth it. It wasn't a write off in the sense that the service cost was worth more than the watch. The watch was still probably worth around 10, maybe nine or 10, but it would have just been a huge amount of money to drop, you know, good money after bad, as it were, in this case on a watch that he no longer had faith in and more to the point, a brand he no longer had faith in. And so he'd offered it to my watchmaker friend for the bargain price of 6,000, which we considered taking. We thought, well, that's not bad because we could fix this watch, we could fix that dial, you know, we could either glue the foot back on or maybe just add a little bit of solder to it and get it, you know, in place and firmly fixed. And the movement issue wasn't really an issue as much as it was just an inconvenience to sort out. So we thought about it. But then, to be quite frank, they're such a unreliable piece and not a piece that either of us would really consider wearing at all. Neither one of us is a fan of ceramic cases because of their brittleness, as cool as they can look in some instances. And in one instance for Omega, I have to say, there is an Omega Seamaster 300m professional with black ceramic case and I think a titanium rotating bezel and a black dial with no date, which is an absolute stunner. It's absolute stealth warrior. My friend Tony in Maryland works for Little treasury, has one on his wrist and it just looks incredible. So I'd advocate that one if you want a ceramic watch from Omega, but otherwise, no, we just weren't interested. So that is a horror story that I've heard recently. I think service costs are really, really going up and this is probably due to the rarity of qualified watchmakers, even in Switzerland, the cost of components, which is skyrocketing around the industry as well, exacerbated by many things such as waiting times, increased retail costs and lower volumes. So more value per piece and it's prohibitive. It's something that everybody has to consider when they buy a new watch. What's the service cost going to be? And I'd say expect it to be at least 10%. Although to be fair, by recent metrics that's a massive underestimation. I think when it comes to vintage, it's a minefield. You know, Lawrence's example is perfect. You've got a watch there that is basically going to cost you the same again to have it brought back to grade A condition. Perhaps don't be so surprised at that because there can be a lot of work that goes into that. The parts that you're probably trying to source for it are occasionally very rare, especially esthetic components like dials or hands. You know, movement components are much easier to source because they're shared and far more ubiquitous. But the esthetic stuff, yeah, be wary, obviously if you buy in vintage, I would say stay clear of base metal cases that are chromed or plated because they are extremely expensive to fix. Sometimes patch up. You might in some cases need to work with a case rebuilding specialist like the lapinist on Instagram who can tackle any kind of Seiko, battered to hell as it may be and bring it back to life, in fact in many cases better than it was when it left the shop originally. But I'd be cautious. It's why I stay away from it, it's why I don't like it. I think that honestly, Lawrence's example of a Breguet and Piaget is probably almost a safer bet than buying something that appears to be affordable. Like I got this lovely old corner van, gold plated vintage watch which I gave to my brother in law eventually because I didn't want to have it brought up to the standard that I would be happy wearing it and it only cost me about 300, 400 quid. And to get it back to life would have cost me twice that. When it comes to the Breguet and Piaget, the relative cost would be much lower. Yes, you might spend 5, 6, 7, 15, 20 on a really high quality vintage piece from those brands. But I would wager that you will be unlikely to be spending the same amount that you paid for it on having it refreshed to a point in which you're happy to wear it a lot. You've got a lot of experience with this I guess with watches coming back through your hands in the dealership all the time. So what do you think?
- [24:24]
Alon Ben Joseph
I think a lot of things. What I try to tell people when they are new to the watch collecting game is especially on older watches and or vintage. So young time is a vintage. Try to keep in mind by doing a benchmark for yourself on average every four or five years it will cost you on average 10 to 15% of the current pricing the brand shows. So let's say Omega is going up and up and up in the price. That means the after sales goes up and up and up in price. Same goes for Patek, same goes for Rolex. So obviously it's not a rule of thumb. It doesn't always apply. On Lawrence's case with the Angulus, yeah, it's difficult. Angulus is very high end today. But it explains why these costs are so high. Why costs are high is also twofold. I think brands think they can get away with it. Not realizing that I perceive after sales service and in the watch industry they often use the term sav, which is the French abbreviation for after sales service. They don't understand that it's a marketing tool and if you don't apply it correctly it can blow up in your face. So if you're not fast enough and if you're simply overcharging, then it's negative marketing. That being said, there are not enough watchmakers. I mean think about how many new watches have been poured into the markets the last two, three decades or since the 90s, since we had a renaissance in mechanical watchmaking, the quantity of watchmakers has not been in par of growth. So there are huge lags. The turnaround times for after sales are very long. Watchmakers need to be paid more so costs go up. So in their defense, costs haven't gone up. Another thing I want to defend the brands in the perception of consumers, the high end brands or the old brands that still exist or always have been continuing to work. They try to keep spare parts at least 20 years on average after they stopped producing a particular model. But think about if it's a very old brand, what a huge back catalog. They have a spare parts. I've been in the Omega service department. It's bonkers what they have. And they often keep spare parts longer in stock. So 30 years or even longer. And when they run out of particular spare parts, they might reproduce them. So to manage that and to get spare parts to all the subsidiary after sales centers of that particular brand around the globe simply takes time. That's also something that consumers sometimes forget. We live in a society where everything is just in time, needs to be done immediately. And obviously due to technology like phones, iPads, laptops, we're used to RMA numbers. So when you have an after sales issue, you get a return label and a number and you can log in and track where your product is and what the turnaround times are. And that creates expectations when consumers hand in their watches for after sales. But in defense of watchmakers that deal with the older generation of products, maybe independent watchmakers or even the brands, watches have a soul and they don't do what you want. And those that have children know exactly what I mean, because children don't do what you want. And everybody knows that. Sometimes we catch a bug and then our body doesn't do what our mind wants. It's the same with watches. Sometimes you can overhaul a watch and Rob, you can explain this better than I can, because you're a watchmaker, so sometimes you give a lot of TLC to a watch. You do it with utter dedication and precision. You assemble watch again and it doesn't run as it should. So you need to start all over again. And often after a watch has been disassembled and assembled for an after sale service, you put it on the winder. Usually could be that it doesn't fit the criteria of precision and you need to start over, right, Rob?
- [29:28]
Rob Nudds
Well, watches are difficult. You know, we all know this. And it sounds like a bit of a bit like I'm fobbing it off, but it's true. When you're working with mechanical machines this size, this fineness, the interaction of the components is not something you can necessarily rely upon. So every component has tolerances, right? Tolerances in modern watches especially are much better than they were in the past, far more precise, largely because we use a lot more machines rather than handcraft these days. But at either end of the tolerances, there comes a point where two components that meet and have to interact dynamically would be unable to function alongside one another. And this is a strange quirk. It really only matters the smaller and smaller you get. Because even though the tolerances themselves shrink, there's only so much you can shrink tolerances. And so they become relatively larger, they become relatively more impactful on the operation of the components once they've been made. So there's, there's two words. I think I must have mentioned this on the podcast before. One of them is a word that everyone's aware of and one of them is a word I'm not even sure even exists. I don't even know if it's in the dictionary, but it certainly is used within manufacturing circles. And that is the difference between longevity and longability. Longevity is how long a component will last due to its material strength structure. When would that component fail, when would its teeth, for example, in case of a wheel erodes the point at which it was no longer doing its job sufficiently. Longability, on the other hand, is how long that can component, how long can that component interact with the component next to it in the chain of operation before it fails or whether it can at all. So when you're working with watches, you have to be aware of the fact that you can do everything right and it's still won't result in a watch that ticks as you want it to. There's a great example of this. When I was working at Bremont, they used a lot of. What was it? It was a 2836 clone. I can't remember the Solita code for it, but it was the ETA2836 clone, which is the day date version of the 2824 basically. So super bog standard movement, really easy to service, should be a walk in the park. The hammer that changes the day on the dial side of that watch is this long copper colored hammer which hits the bottom of the day wheel as the date ticks over and jumps it. And it's quite a big jump. It's quite an aggressive action. Okay. Now when Celia was copying this hammer, they messed up somehow. No one's really sure exactly how. And it took him a long time before they got it right. And there was hundreds, thousands of these slightly dodgy hammers on the market that were just temperamental. They weren't out of tolerance, none of them were out of tolerance. None of the wheels, none of the day wheels were out of tolerance either. But you just have to try 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 of these hammers and day wheels in combination with one another to find the ones that worked. And you'd I'd have a big line of them on my desk, a big line of hammers and a big line of day wheels. And there was nothing wrong with any of those components, they all passed qc, but you just have to match them up through trial and error to see which ones worked with which. And when you've got vintage watches, especially if you don't have like a huge library of components you can draw from, because I had no worries at Bremen, I'd just go upstairs, I'd get an entire box of hammers out and I just sit there and try it with the same date wheel until I find one that worked and then I'd move on to the next. And you would find you wouldn't waste many components, there would be some that just wouldn't work fine, you put them in the bin. But by and large you would eventually be able to use all the components. Just you had to find the right combination thereof. So yes, alon, you're absolutely right. Even if you follow all the rules, you can still find yourself with a watch that doesn't work. And that's even more a problem with vintage watches. And if you have to remake those components, especially if you don't have technical documents, expect for a stratospherically high build expectations, a stupendously high bill to come your way.
- [33:39]
Alon Ben Joseph
Thank you for that. Very valuable. So to finish off this topic, this underlines my story that you can't manage expectations on the timeline. So that's one side of my answer. Now to round it up, I understand you, I feel you Lawrence. Those that have been collecting quite some time, they've seen prices of watches go through the roof, but after sales even more so you feel you're being ripped off. But I guess that Rob story also explains why you can't find the spare parts. There are less watchmakers. And another issue is a lot of brands cut off independent watchmakers by simply not willing to supply them parts anymore. Another difficulty is, and I do understand the brands, they don't want to do partial services because the moment a watch goes through their hands, a consumer expects full reliability of the watch. Giving you an example, if a waterproof watch has a hand that came loose, of course the watchmaker can open it up quickly, put the hand back, probably not even use new seals, and it will come through a water proof test. But what if 6 months or 12 months or 18 months later there is moisture inside your case? You obviously going to go back to that watchmaker and say hey, it's your fault, it's not waterproof, go fix it. So there is correlation there and there is the managing of expectations. So brands today say, hey, I can't do that, I don't want to do that. Whenever we touch anything you need to do like they call it a half service or full revision, that means new ceilings for your watch, waterproof, etc. And that makes it more expensive. Counter side is they do give you at least a year warranty often today, two years warranty. So it's a two sided, two edged sword. So it cuts both ways. They do want to soften the pain. The brands nowadays, the high end brands, they'll give you a nice travel pouch, Cartier will give you even a cleaning kit in a beautiful red box. So horror stories, Lawrence, is it a horror story? I don't know. Is it painful? Yeah. Therefore, advice that I give, whenever you buy whatever watch always add, let's say 5% a year on top every four years, about 20% that you'll have to spend. So it's like car maintenance. I mean with cars we always expect the pain when we go to a garage and with a watchmaker or our watches, we don't.
- [36:38]
Rob Nudds
You know, one thing on that subject that watch brands should be very keen on in an era where consumers are more and more conscious about where they're placing their money is warranties. You know, so many are doing it now and it is great to see a lot of them have cottoned on that a five year warranty or a ten year warranty makes a big difference. Like I never would have thought about it when I was first into the hobby. I never would have been using how long the warranty is to split a close decision between two watches. It seemed too boring, too mature, too conservative. Like I'm oh yeah, a watch will just run if you treat it right. And to be fair, I've had, I don't know how many watches I've had service in my life, but a shockingly low number. The majority of my watches I have in my collection and this might horrify some of the listeners given I'm a watchmaker, but they've never been serviced and to be honest, if they're running, I do not want to service them. I just don't want to risk opening them up and change them. Now luckily I have so many watches, I rotate through them and so they don't have that much wear and for most of the time they are inactive in their box, out of sunlight, out of, you know, dust or any kind of influence that might damage them. But the truth of the matter is nowadays, in a market that is fast exiting the kind of money I'm able to spend on watches, frequently the warranty does make a big difference. If someone says to me, you've got five years instead of two, I'd be, I'd be listening. If they said he got 10, then I might find myself more focused on that brand than I would ever have been because of the aesthetic. And I'm being serious. Like that does make a huge difference to me now at the age I'm at. What about you, Alan? I mean, how many, how often do you send watches for service yourself?
- [38:27]
Alon Ben Joseph
I am actually very bad. I recommend everybody who buys a watch just to do it proactively every four or five years. Although the rule of thumb is that if we work within cost parameters, so I always say a delta of 10 seconds -4 +6. If you see that the variance in your timekeeping is deviating so fast is slower, just very quickly. 10 seconds, which it doesn't do 10 seconds a day, but let's say it does. 10 seconds is a precision of 99.9% daily. But 10 seconds accumulative is 70 seconds a week. That's almost five a month. If your watch starts doing that, yeah, it will start annoying me if my watch doesn't run on the minute. I'm not so fussy, but that is usually a benchmark for doing maintenance. But I have people, especially with Rolexes that don't maintain their movement, saying, giving a service to their watch, maybe 12, 14 years. So I often say to them, well, I kind of think that's pennywise pound foolish because at a certain point you can start damaging the parts in your movement because simply lubrication is almost non existent anymore or not properly functioning. And that's more expensive than two interval services. But correct me if I'm wrong, Rob. So for me, because I have so many watches and I don't wear them daily, obviously I don't really notice the variance in my calibers. So if I wear one watch for a whole week, which is rare, I might notice that it's more than a minute a week and then I send them off. So I have two methods. Either it's not running precise and then I just send it off, or if I know that a particular watch in my collection simply didn't have a service for over five, six years, I'll proactively send it.
- [40:34]
Rob Nudds
Very good, very good, good advice and certainly healthy topics for debate within the WhatsApp community. Which of course, as we said at the start of the show. You're more than welcome to join if you'd like to be part of the ever growing TRTS network and also get an insight into what we're going to be doing at events this year because we're going to be hosting some nights out, I think, and getting people together and trying to have a nice casual, relaxed drink and talk about watches when we are all out there in Geneva and elsewhere enjoying the novelties of 2025. All right, one more question for this show and go. Blimey. This is the longest question I've ever seen in my life. I'm gonna. I'm going to start reading it, but bear with me. All right, so this is from Matt Wright. Cheers. Matt. This is a. Well, God, you deserve a byline for the episode for this question. All right, here we go. Hey guys, I would love to hear the answer to the following from the point of view of a dealer, a watchmaker and an insightful contrarian. That's David. Unfortunately he's not here, but we can probably ask him what he thinks later on, maybe get him to write an article about this because there's enough meat on this bow. Question should vintage watch dealers include some sort of minimum objective database of watch function such as a time grapher reading and a 3 ATM water test? I don't know if that is the right set of information, but if you agree that there should be something other than keeps good time, what would the minimum database look like? If your mom was buying a watch, what information would you tell her to get from the dealer before purchasing? The reason I ask is that you can't really buy a house, a car or more or less anything else and have the seller say, yeah, I don't really know much about it, but it seems to work well. Yeah, that is exactly what we get from vintage watch dealers and nobody seems to expect more. I don't expect more from private sellers, but is it too much to ask reputable dealers and just put that in inverted commas for a time graph of reading and maybe a 3 ATM test? Ideally, I would also like to have the watches inspected by a watchmaker for a further checklist type of visual assessment, but that is probably going too far and getting into subjective assessments which can be sticky for reference. Veterinarians get stray dogs found on the side of the road from Mexico who literally have no service history. But at least make an effort towards creating a minimum database including a physical examination, deworming, heartworming test, flea de fleeing, I guess vaccinations blood work, x rays, etc. Etc. To give pet owners some idea of what they're adopting. We don't just stick them in a cage and say looks good eating, saw a poop yesterday. Good luck, have fun. I tell you what, if that was an assessment of an aura, she'd be in trouble. One would think that if we could do that for free dogs from Mexico, dealers could at least make some effort to provide a minimum database for watches. Of course a time grapher reading does not assess all watch functions like the keyless or automatic, where it doesn't say anything about the threads on the crown tube, etc. But it is at least something other than service history Unknown but keeping your time I am positive Rob, that's me, can get a watch in dire need of a service to keep good time for a month or two by cranking on the regulator. But you can't fake amplitude. Certainly got more faith in me than I have in myself. That's nice. On the flip side, I can also argue that offering information will create market confusion and require massive education on the part of dealers to help community understand and digest the information. Such as some Seikos have low amplitudes and that there is a range of acceptable amplitude. High beat movements, for example can have a lower amplitude. A good time graphic reading doesn't mean that there are not other issues, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Almost there. Am I asking too much of vintage watch dealers? Is vintage also bullshit because the ecosystem is built on plausible deniability by not offering the watch community really any other information other than keeps good time? Last point. I was recently making a fairly expensive purchase and a few of the reputable dealers ghosted me when I asked for a time graph of reading. Maybe David Vaucher is right after all. Maybe vintage is bullshit. I really hope I wasn't on mute while I was saying all that. Oh thank God. Alon. Maybe start from the top.
- [44:40]
Alon Ben Joseph
Boom. And there's Matt. And he's right with an R. Although you spell his surname right with a W U. Thank you Matt. I love when you email us and I love your philosophical approach to everything. This was just entertainment listening to this question. So separate the men from the boys. I'll do pro and con, defend and attack dealers. So us as vintage and certified pre owned dealers. Yes, we do a time grapher and we do basic waterproof tests and if needed we'll test them on the wrist if the owners allow us. Because you know that time graph is not enough. And a test on a watch wind Is not enough. Sometimes in real life on a wrist a watch behave differently, especially the older they are. So pick a mix. So should I say shame on those dealers that don't? Probably. But I'll jump to the rescue immediately to defend them if the margin is not there. And you're a very good debater because you're gonna kill me by saying hey vets do dogs from Mexico for free. So why should watch dealers that make money not do it? It's an ROI analysis, right? It's a return on investment. Unfortunately most of the margins on pre owned watches, dumping the sea of certified pre owned, they're simply not there. Often on Rolexes, the 12 and a dozen Rolexes, you hardly make a gross profit of $500 or euros. Even if a watch is 10k, it's just 5%. Before that you need to obviously insure the watch registered because we register everything in a national database for theft. We have to ensure it photograph it, put it in our systems, upload it in our website, Insta Socials, WhatsApp community, what have not. So the margins are very slim. Now it does separate the men from the boys, right? It separates the good dealers from the less good dealers. You indicating that most of the dealers ghost you when you ask that question. I guess that says enough and they did you a favor by ghosting you so you shouldn't buy it. On the other hand, the market was very overheated, so probably they got away with it. The market got flooded with guys and gals. Oh jump the commodity trading bandwagon of buying us flipping watches because they think are easy, does that make them a proper watch dealer? So could be. There are a lot of, I don't dare to call them rotten apples. I don't want to go as far, but maybe they're simply not that knowledgeable. I know a lot of dealers that don't even know how to operate a time grapher, let alone read the results from a time grapher. I mean you know the difference between amplitude and etc. But a lot of dealers or jewelers don't. So I don't know if it's such a bad thing. So if you demand this of your dealers, then you have a benchmark to verify who's a good or less good dealer. So Those are my $0.02 on this topic. What do you reckon Rob?
- [48:40]
Rob Nudds
I'm actually pretty sure that at some point somebody either tried to implement a third party encompassing test for vintage watches or at least we discussed it in house. It might have been us, it might have Been us. One of David's ideas maybe to create set a criteria similar to a cost evaluation where the watches are sent for a test by an independent third party to assess not just timekeeping, but waterproofness, the state of componentry, the likely runtime of the watch in its current state, etc. Etc. And then give you an idea of not only, you know, what the fair price of the watch would be, but what you would expect to pay to have it restored to A1 quality. So, yes, it would be wonderful if that existed. I think, however, it wouldn't take off because dealers wouldn't want in most cases to have those watches submitted for it because of course, it'd be an associated cost which would then be passed on to the consumer who, although would buy with more peace of mind, would be less likely to buy when they found out that in most cases, quite likely, that they were buying a bag of bolts. You know, most vintage watches, I've got some problem or some foible or some catastrophe waiting to happen at some point. It's just the nature of their age. And unless they're in exceptional condition and they've been preserved in excellent environmental conditions, then eventually everything's going to need a little bit of touching up, especially gaskets. Of course, they should be checked and changed regularly. But if they don't exist anymore, then what are you going to do? You know, if you buy a vintage watch, I think you just have to take it on the chin that it's something that you're buying for the. For the moment at least, and that it may not become the heirloom we hope it to. I think it's similar to buying a used car. Like, if you know that a car's had 15 owners and it's got 200,000 miles on the clock and it's got no service history with it, then you'd be a bit suspicious, wouldn't you? You know, you'd be like, okay, well, this car has obviously been passed around a lot. It's got a lot of miles on, on the tread. You know, maybe it's not the best purchase. Then again, if you get a car that has a full service history, one owner, not too old, low mileage, you feel like, okay, I can go with that. And that's kind of like buying a mid 2000s Navitimer. You know, you know what you get in basically, you know, all the components still exist. You know, it could be service, you know, it could be brought back to life. I would always err on the side of Caution. But that doesn't answer Matt's question directly. Matt says, should we expect more from dealers? I'd say theoretically. Emotionally, yes. It would be nice to just feel like there was at least transparency. And when you ask for a time grapher reading, if you don't get one, do not buy from that dealer because they are hiding something. And if they give you one and it's gaining 36 seconds a day and you're like, you know what? That is the nature of this piece. Just have to reset it every couple of days or be super early to everything, which is also not the worst thing in the world. Or wear it as a item of jewelry. You know, a lot of people, I would think if you're buying a vintage watch, a lot of the time it's more about a statement of style, but then it is about absolute timekeeping accuracy. So that's something to consider as well. I know loads of guys that buy watches that don't even set the time. It makes me feel a bit sick. But sometimes that's just how it is. They just strap it on and away they go. Because it's a comfort thing. They don't really use it for tracking the day. They use a phone or laptop or pad or whatever to do that. So yeah, there can be that way of wearing a watch. But I do think that we should expect more from dealers. I think what we should expect primarily is transparency, that they answer all the questions that we ask them to the best of their ability. As long as you have the information, all of the information you don't feel like you have in the wall pulled over your eyes, then the decision you make is your own. It may be a good one, it may be a bad one. You'll win some, you'll lose some. But at the end of the day, as long as you are well furnished with the necessary facts or speculations, if there are no facts, then go ahead, go with your gut if you can afford to, go with your head if you can't and enjoy what you buy. But I would say nowadays, buy new, where you can buy from young independents up and coming doing something different, like leading the industry from the front. And yeah, buy sparingly, don't go crazy, don't throw your cash around. Be sensible, ask questions, talk to brand owners, brand representatives, retailers, and get a good feel for the people that are going to be supporting you in the ownership of that watch after the purchase. Any more comments, Alan?
- [53:24]
Alon Ben Joseph
Well said. I have actually imported a saying from the diamond industry to the watch world in the diamond business. We say often buy the seller. Same goes with pre owned. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. And a tip for you buyers out there, ask the dealer if something is wrong, can I return it and have a full refund? That's something that we live by with all our expertise. Cumulative. We have more than 100 years of experience and if we're in doubt, we'll ask.
- [53:55]
Rob Nudds
Perfect. I absolutely agree. And let's end it on that note. So it's nice to get back into the mailbag and I'm looking forward to mining through the rest of the questions that we have piled up waiting for us. And maybe we can get Scarlett or David to jump in and do some of them with us as well. All right, guys, if you'd like to add to that pile, then please do. You can contact us via email, either Rob Alon or davidime show or you can contact us via the contact form www.the realtime show or you can contact us via Instagram. I'm there at R o b n u d d S alon's there at a l o n b e n j o s e p h and David is there at d a v a u c h e r and Scarlett can be found at s c a r l I n t h e s h I r e and I didn't even read that out. That's Scarl in the shire because she's a true English woman. We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and more answers to your various questions. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.