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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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B
Watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alon Mentjosef. Today I'm very honored and proud to welcome to the Physical studio my Dutch friend in Amsterdam, Lawrence de Reiche of the Reiche and Company.
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A
Thank you very much. Nice to be here.
- [00:27]
B
Good to have you here in Amsterdam. Good to see you. Congrats on the launch of your white Miffy collab. The white ceramic one. While we're recording this, you are actually getting nonstop pings of orders coming in. So it could be that when this airs, it has been sold out. It might not. I highly recommend you to check it out if you like bunnies or Miffy. And for the Dutch fans, it is Nankje. We just took a selfie in the garden of our new location here in Amsterdam on the museum square with a life size blinged out Miffy.
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A
Yeah, that's nice.
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B
So, la, if I understand correctly, this is your last chapter with Miffy, is that correct?
- [01:16]
A
Yeah, that's correct. We had a license from the owners of Miffy and they are very strict on the license. So it was, I think, already quite amazing that I was able to get the license at all. But very happy I got it. But, yeah, they allowed me to do only a few editions and this is the last one. So. Yeah.
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B
So we'll circle back to the whole Mithri chapter in a bit. I want to do a full episode with you. We had a lovely time in Geneva a few months ago. The Encanto watches. Probably most of the listeners heard that short episode where you presented your novelties. But maybe let's go back to the roots. You are not a watchmaker by nature.
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A
No, I'm not. No. I'm an industrial design engineer by education. And yeah, I stumbled up on a watch during a journey on my old Vespa and that ignited sort of the spark to start designing watches. So it was in 2013, so 12 years ago already. So it's been a long road, quite literally as well. Yeah.
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B
So you probably told this story often, but I still love that story. You went on your Vespa, vintage Vespa, on kind of a Silk Route ish tour.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Where did you start? Where did you end up?
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A
We started in the Netherlands and I drove all the way to. I ended up in Kazakhstan, but we took the long roads, I'd say through. Which is the old Silk Road. So through Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan. And then you go to Kazakhstan and that's where it ended for me.
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B
So A literal Silk Road.
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A
Yeah, it was probably the most Silk road you can do now. The only pro you, if we, if we completed it, we would have come to China. We've, we've driven along the border of China, but it's really hard to enter China with your own vehicle. So it was not an option. But who knows in the future to finish it. Would you do it again? Yeah, I think so. But I mean, I'm 12 years older now and I'm not sure if I would definitely do it again on the first pine. Say I would definitely do it again on motorcycle now. But sometimes I realize what a stupid idea it was to do it on Vespa. We only did it in, only I did it in about two months, about 11,000 kilometers. I sometimes, I mean you, you forget all the hard stuff, but sometimes I get confronted with, I was, after three days we were already in Istanbul, which is 2,500 kilometers on a fast path from 62. That's, that's a really real endurance. And my back was hurting so much. I know, I realize now, or I, how do you say this? I recall that I almost had given up on day three because of the back pain I already had. We did a highway and highway on this thing. I mean the autobahn in Germany, cars passing you by with 200 kilometers an hour and you're struggling with 90 kilometers an hour. It was crazy. But yeah.
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B
So how did you endure? Why did you continue?
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A
At that point I was like, I want to do like this amazing once in a lifetime thing. I wanted to do this trip for quite a long time already. Like the Central Asia part. I wanted to see it and mostly on a, especially on a motorcycle. But I wanted to for one time in my life to do something really stupid and to really have a memory. I, I, I have to say at that time I was also working as a Vespa restoration guy at the restoration company. So I had a big connection with Vespa. Everyone called me the Vespa guy and at the university. And so I thought I want to do like once in a lifetime something really stupid on a Vespa. And then I keep that Vespa for the rest of my life. So I bought also like the most that, yeah for me the most precious and most valuable fespar and the most sought after version. This was a grand sport. And I thought, okay, I'll do this one time and I keep this scooter for the rest of my life. And it's, it's, it looks like it's happening. So yeah. You still have it? Yeah, yeah. So like with. Some people have, with Rolex that they've, they've, they've inherited from their dad or something. That's one of the, my goals to do that with Vespa. I still have it. It's in my living room. I still ride it. I still wrote it on Sunday. So. Yeah.
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B
So what watch were you wearing on your Vespa?
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A
On the Silk Route, I started with no watch. And that's where we got interesting. I went to a flea market in Georgia. Georgia in Europe or Central Asia. And I had a big hangover on one day and guys, I was traveling with two friends. They were already out visiting city Tbilisi hours later because I was so hungover. So I was alone in the city and then I stumbled upon a flea market. And I thought, okay, it would be cool if I can find a good souvenir here. And I found a watch, an old foster watch, mechanical watch. And I thought, okay, this is the perfect souvenir. And it worked. So I, I. And that's the watch I wore during the rest of the trip. And then, and then during the trip, I, I was, I was so I was studying industrial design engineering, and during the trip I had this watch on my wrist. But I was also, I was always wearing gloves. I mean, the Vespa, it doesn't go so fast, but in the desert it got so it was. So we passed one of the hottest deserts in the world, the Karakorum desert. So I was driving often in my T shirt, but one thing I was always wearing was my gloves. Because you need to hand shift with the Vespa, you need to use the clutch and of course give gloss so you want to have gloves on. The gloves are always covering my watch. And that inspired me, being industrial design engineer. Like, okay, I, I'm wearing a watch, but I cannot read it when I'm driving or riding motorcycle, riding a Vespa. So I thought, okay, maybe I was approaching graduation and I had a. Have a project for my graduation and I thought, okay, maybe I can turn this, maybe I can do something with this subject. Maybe I can do, create a watch that I can wear on my gloves and still read while driving. And that's how it started. And I turned it into a graduation project and then the ball started rolling.
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B
So you, in that desert, were you wearing gloves because either you were sweating and you needed grip or you were burning alive in the sun.
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A
No.
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B
Or the handles were metal and you.
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A
Were burning your hand. No. It's because you. We already start to get blisters. Yeah, blisters and stuff. So we, we really need the gloves to. Yeah, for the, for shifting and the clutching. Yeah.
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B
So what did you, did you buy a long strap and strap it on your gloves during the trip or did you just suffer, stop and look what time it was?
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A
That's the last thing. Yeah, I just. Yeah. Did you heard one glove, you're pushing back the other glove and, and watching them. Yeah. So what most people do during winter sports. Yeah, exactly.
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B
Or wear it on your glove Agnelli style. Did you consider sticking it on the dashboard?
- [09:39]
A
Yeah, I thought about it. I've also thought about making it modular so you can either wear it on your wrist and have it as a modular thing on, on the dashboard. Why? It's still something to think about in the future, but at the other end, in the end, for now, I really like the idea of having a watch that you can wear mostly in both situations. And that's also why the first watches, they had an easy to take off strap. So you could easily put on a NATO strap or something and put it on your gloves if you want to. But I mean in the end also, I mean realistically, a lot of people don't do it and then people prefer to have a normal strap. So again we went for the push spring straps.
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B
But yeah, if you're intrigued by now listening, the Reichenko is spelled D E R I J K E and C O. That is the URL D E R I J K A E A N-D C O dot com. So that's his surname. Your USP we could say are drivers watches.
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A
Up till now. Yeah, yeah, correct.
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B
Yeah, yeah, up till now. So he just gave us a hint, boys and girls, I'll. I'll pry a bit later into that. So you came back from your silk route, you had your graduation project in your mind. What university did you go to? Yeah, so that is, do I dare to say, the MIT of Holland?
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
It's prestigious and it's the top notch school. So you came back and then what?
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A
And then. So I, I approached a teacher at the university and he said, yeah, if you want to do this. And he was, he was actually himself, he was more into the branding aspect of, of product design, but he was really excited about it. So he was pushing me to do this and he said, yeah, you should approach Bruno Nina, we're a Dutch designer who was also a teacher back at the time and he said, yeah, he knows how to make a watch, so ask him and maybe he can Teach you and learn you how to actually build it so you have a good starting point. So I approached Bruno and Bruno was really happy to help me. And that led to me, I think, being I'm actually postponing my graduation project or my graduation date so I could work on my watch because Bruno really taught me how to use a lathe and a mill and I could use Bruno's workplace, which is a really amazing workshop in Delft. We're fully equipped with mills and lathes and all the stuff you can think about. And I was able to use it as long as I was graduating and I was still having the student loan. So I actually postponed it to 1/2 years so I could really focus on developing watch. And yeah, but then in the end, after one of years or two years at brno, I realized I always felt like the breath of Bruno in my neck. So to say he's a very unique person with this strong vision. And I felt I had to like and really to get this moving, I had to develop my own path. So I decided to leave at the Bruno. I graduated in the meantime and then I started and. But in order to do, to develop my own path, my own watch, my own vision, I had to have my own workshop because I mean, I developed a few watches. I made a watch for graduation, but I completely threw it away and started all over again with stuff I learned and yeah, started over and developed the first in the end. And that I developed in my own workshop, which I built after graduation.
- [13:54]
B
So two things that we need to dissect. Why build yourself? Is that demanded for graduating?
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A
No. David Else no, the engineering was demanded in the end that it was interesting because in the end I basically did two graduation projects. Most people do either like either development. So in the design part, but I was actually in my master, I was more focusing on the strategic product design. And then you're focusing more on strategy and on the. On for instance, brand development or marketing and all this kind of stuff. And I wanted to do it or in the end I ended up doing it both because I also, I had both teachers. I had Bruno who was really hands on, really practical and had the other teacher who was really on the branding side. And I worked them out both. But so to get to your question, making it yourself was not part of it, but it was one of the things I learned from Bruno is that, I mean, one of the big advantages, if you can do this stuff yourself, you can basically try stuff. I spend a lot of time still, I kind of hate the word trying but you, but you're still testing like feeling the water if it works or not. And then you can grow like really gradually without making a big. Taking a big risk. And that's what I've been, I've been doing ever since. And I mean for me it really works and I think it's a healthy way to grow a business without. I mean if you're so attached to something, you're really at least is my problem maybe my, my challenge. You're also worried about losing it. So you're protecting it so much that you're. And then. Yeah, so you're afraid to take a big risk. So. And if you don't want to take a big risk, one of the things you can do is build it yourself and do a lot of the stuff yourself so you don't have to have a big investment on like immediately have a, A case maker make your case or someone else developing the case for you and yeah, all the stuff.
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B
So are you control freak?
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A
Maybe a little bit. But I think maybe. But I. Past years I've also learned maybe and I've. Yeah, I've learned to do let things go and I've also learned that other people can do things better than me. I mean also in making and in developing as well. I'm good in or like I have a starting level in a lot of fields, but for the real experts that can do stuff much better. Yeah. I mean then it's often better to let them do it, but it's also good to have a certain basic level of knowledge and in many fields when you're starting watch brand. Yeah, but I'm more and more learning to. To have things done by other people.
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B
It's almost a rhetorical question, but I have to ask it. You know, I have a lot of overlapping passions for Vespas. Personal sunglasses, vintage espresso machines. So the rhetorical question is, was it an option to use a quartz movement?
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A
No, Never even. I mean before when I bought the Foster, I knew nothing about mechanical watches, really nothing except that they were mechanical and so they didn't use a battery. But it was the main thing that attracted me to the watches is the analogy from EU with the Vespa, the old cars I'm also passionate about. You don't use electronics that get outdated. And so that was the main driver for me to do something with watches or one of the main drivers.
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B
Did you think of reviving a vintage heritage brand?
- [18:17]
A
No, never. It's not, it's not my style, I would say. I like to I forgot I created my own vision on how I think. I mean that's a continuous process. You are your development of your vision and of how you approach a watch as well and product design. But I really like the journey, to create the journey myself and to shape, to literally shape the watches myself. So that's one of the things I'm working on a new dress watch which is maybe recognizable but also completely different than what people will have seen. And that's what I really like. I really want to craft or to shape the future myself of my own wrap. That's what maybe what I'm most passionate about actually. So that's why I really, I would never revive a more grant, I think.
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B
Have you, have you become a watcher?
- [19:24]
A
Yeah, quite a lot and it's growing more and more every day. I mean once you're in this rabbit hole then I mean I'm, you're, you're. I'm working with different people now as well. I've. I've worked with a watchmaker from Paris. He now works for Sylvain Pinot. We still speak on a day to day basis and I learn a lot from him now and also in the beginning already. And then I mean you start to appreciate more the higher horology stuff. I mean before you know it, you're developing your own movement and yeah, so you get droned into it and yeah, it just evolves like that. And that's also what I find difficult for the future of my brand. Like we're continuously evolving. So then it's. But I also want, I mean I want to build a product portfolio but when your watches are still evolving and no, it's. Yeah, it's hard. Anything but. Yeah, yeah.
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B
What did you buy besides your own watches after the vto?
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A
It's tr. I was never bought a. Never bought a watch for myself yet from another brand.
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B
Emphasis on yet. What's high on your list? What attracts you?
- [20:47]
A
Well, what attracts me. Some people found that, find that curious and I think it's, it's. For me it's logical. Of course. I really like what resonance is doing. He's the same background as me, so I think that's what attracts me. And I like his, I mean his complete new approach to seeing time. I also really like the JLC reverser because I think there's the same analogy in the story as, as to my watch. So. Yeah, something like that. But I can also really appreciate. I've. I've really started to appreciate like the really old Rolexes and what I really like about. I mostly like about that stuff. And that's also what I in the beginning really I wanted to try my try develop myself. Is that in a time that the Rolex, like in the. In the 60s for instance, that was state of the art stuff. I mean there was nothing better. If you were going to dive then you wanted to have a Rolex. So this. But I mean it's. It's impossible to replicate that now because watches have become in certain way irrelevant. It's only. It's a piece of jewelry now. So it's. But I really admire. And that's also going from my background as industrial design engineer. Because if you would have worked in the 60s as industrial design engineer, Rolex would probably. Probably have been one of the companies you really wanted to work for because they were the best at that time in a. Like in a tool you could develop. So yeah, that's what I.
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B
So I highlighted that you're basically making driver's watches. I stopped there. For our listeners that might not know the brand or don't know what driver's watches are, you are not the first to make it. Maybe one of the most famous ones is the Vacheron Constantin 1921 I believe where basically the watch is not symmetrical. We call it slanted that it doesn't sit straight on your wrist. Now I love things that are well made. Therefore I love engineers because they want to make good stuff. I'll try. I have Lawrence's watch on my wrist. I'm holding the watch next to the mic. We'll be quiet and then just listen to this. I hope the mic picks it up. So you basically created a watch that is elegant, doesn't shout, it whispers. It could have some Max Bill vibes. It could be in old Portuguese by the sea case ish vibes. The lugs are new. Could be that you like Nomos glass return. I'm not saying you copy them or. It doesn't look like anything now. Is this the first in the world? 12 years ago when you launched the Amalfi Collection where you have an inner case that rotates more than 90 degrees.
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A
90. It is 90. Yeah.
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B
So it's 90 degrees where I can turn the inner case.
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A
Yeah. I will be honest. I think there was. There is another one were from Mont Blanc and that was like 360 degrees. So the. The crown was higher than the lux. So the crown could move. Can move over the lux. It was with a special movement. It was. It was a limited edition. It was very expensive at least probably would have been there for caliber. Yeah. Yeah. But I think the most distinctive thing and the most interesting thing about my watch is especially indeed the integration and one of the things that I had to come up with and that I had to realize is that you can make the angle of 90 degrees and that's also the only thing you need. You need only an angle of up to 90 degrees and more of that is not necessary. But you can have the angle of 90 degrees between the lux and then you can make it. Then it. That's why it really looks like a normal watch because the. The Montblanc one that is. I mean. Yeah. It looks kind of silly in my eyes because you have the crown that has to cross over the Lux. So you have this really high case with this Lux sitting really low and it looks kind of hard. So there was one of the. Yeah. Things I had to come up with and in order to do that was one of the things I that I had to realize back in the day. If you. If you're putting the crown at 45 degrees or it's not exactly 45 between two it is 45 and now between two or three then you have to change the position of the feed of the dial. And that was one of the eye openers. I can actually change the position of the feed I want. I'm not stuck. I don't have to stick to a crown sitting at 3:00'. Clock. And then things naturally evolved from that. But it's also my minimalistic style. I really like to have everything as minimal as possible. But you also now have the looks that cannot be any wider because then the crown would. Would touch the Lux. So it kind of flows from there. And the shape of the Lux, it's now curved because in the first watches that's the solid looks because I wanted to have a strap that could easily be replaced. So. And that's what I really like also in product design. If the if. If aesthetics have as a meaning ever have. So that's like. It's the well known sentence form follows function in the end. And that's also why I wanted to have the dial as big as possible. Which is not easy because we have now a dial that's separate from the minute indications and the alignment of that is very critical and tolerance aspect and it makes life much more difficult. So you take the words out of my mind.
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B
I wanted to say triple F Form follows function. Quick stress test do. What do you think of older Land Rover Defender cars?
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A
I'll show you something better. I really like Them. Yeah.
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B
Another quick intermental question that I had in my mind. Will you ever drive electric Vespa motorbikes or scooters?
- [27:58]
A
I'm not against electrification. I mean it's, I think it's necessary. So I wouldn't say I would not ride them. I, I, yeah, good question. Like, I think for modern, for modern cars, vehicles, it's, it's the way to go, it's unavoidable. But I think we shouldn't electrify old fast pass or old motorcycles of old cars. We should appreciate them for what they are. The impact of the cars that still ride is really minimal. But I mean I'm completely not against innovation. I really like innovation. So I think in that way it's cool. Yeah.
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B
So the newest trend is you'll see vintage cars being electrified. Indeed, that do change the whole inner works. Taking that analogy to watches, do you think that's something totally different? So where you have mechanical engines in these vehicles or motorized vehicles, where we always make the analogy, the mechanical or automatic movements are the engines of watches. Do you see that parallel? Do you think it's a total different world?
- [29:21]
A
I completely see the parallel and I've, in my opinion and I would not be surprised if, if the like a certain segment of the, of the cars, the more the luxury cars like Ferrari and Lamborghini, that, that will be something that is completely relatable to the watches in that sense that I would not be surprised that building a petrol engine will be the new, like a new form of building as we were building a watch movement. So I mean all the brands, they now have to comply with regulations for emissions and stuff. But building a petrol engine is still. You can, can consider it as a craft as, as, as it is as building a watch movement. I would not be surprised that in the future, I mean if all the emissions are taken care of then that building petrol engine is similar to building a watch movement and we will appreciate it and there will be a big market for it. So I also, that's why I'm. I would be hesitant if, I mean I hope, or let's say I hope that brands like Ferrari don't completely embrace the electric electrification but still continue building the petrol. Petrol engines.
- [30:49]
B
So the engines today you use are I believe Slita 3 hundreds. Yeah. Going back in time. So you pushed your graduation year and a half, you ventured out on your own. You start from scratch, you want to do as much as possible in house. Form follows function. You made the design. What caliber did you choose and, and then what what did you do?
- [31:12]
A
Did you start selling in the beginning? Yeah, I started. So I used the. In the very beginning I actually started using the Soprot movement, the first 10 or 20 watches. But it was back then it was hard, especially the support movements. There was a. Was quite a high minimum order quantity and I didn't have the funds to. To pay for it. So that's why I shifted to Sellita. And then I used the Sellita SW300 movement and I still use it for the time only watches. And Sellita also has a SW288 movement, which is a movement with the big moon phase indic. And we use it for the Moonphase watches. But the moon phase we make. We make it a bit bigger. We change the movement a little bit. We take out the date ring. We make our own moon phase disk, make it even bigger than it already is.
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B
Very interesting. I will touch upon that. But getting to the moon phase model. Walk me through. You didn't have the funds.
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A
You risk going to a soap.
- [32:31]
B
How did you start selling family and friends? How did you do fundraising?
- [32:36]
A
Well, one of the things. So one of the. Because I. I had developed the watch in such a way that I didn't needed a big loan to start making. Start selling them. There were a few things I had to outsource, of course, but it was the sapphire crystal for instance. Movements, of course. I think one part of the case that I couldn't make myself so that. But in the beginning it was. It's also part of it is. Is begging suppliers to do 10 pieces or just searching long enough for a supplier that's willing to do 10 pieces per time. And so in the beginning, the first watch cases, I did a lot of the work myself or a lot of the milling as well. But the inner case was made by Yuki in Japan. And they. In the beginning they allowed to do 10 pieces per. Per. Per order, which, I mean, that's. That's nothing. That's. They really. I. They were kind enough really to. To do that. That was one of the things I was able. How I was able to. To. To. Apart from that, I took a small loan from a financier here in the Netherlands and that allowed me to pay to invest in the crystals and some movements. And then, I mean, selling friends and family. Friends, fools and families, they say. And apart from that, I mean, I. The story was nice, I think. So the story also sold itself in the beginning. It was really picked up very well in media. So I had quite a lot of attention in the first year. But after the first or year or something it was really hard to keep the momentum going. So I had to actually put a watch business on the side and start working as an engineer. But I mean it's just. You have to realize that I came from student background. I didn't. After my graduation I didn't work for a BO like for a normal boss. I. I did freelance work but I did actually restoration of all classic cars. So it was. I was more like a mechanic but it allowed me to work only three days a week and then I had two or three days to work on the watches and that I did for a few years. Just really surviving and trying to make it work and developing the product as well. Making iterations. Yeah. And that's taken a lot of time. Quite some years that I was living like that. I rented a house from Social Renting and I had a small, really small shed or you call it like a storage room. And I was able to. Which was. I mean it was the dubious methods and dubious ways but I was able to put a lathe in there in the mill and only once a plug socket there. But it worked at least for me, for them. And that allowed me to have kind of my workshop in, in my house and yeah, that's how it started.
- [36:05]
B
Today you're full time that I can go.
- [36:07]
A
Yeah, for three years already. Yeah.
- [36:11]
B
So from the 12 years it took you nine years to live off this company?
- [36:17]
A
Yeah.
- [36:18]
B
When in that 12 year course did you see the light in the sense that you said this is it and I'm going for this and nothing else.
- [36:29]
A
I thought I'd seen the light a few times but when I took the loan it forced me also to go full time. So I did it full time for half a year or now a year. And it allowed me to launch. But I mean then it just didn't work. It was not enough. So it. Then it forced me to start working full time just to have. Just to like step one, put one step back and again a bit more of engineering experience as well. In hindsight, the two years that I had to start working full time, it was two and a half years something it. I learned so much and I gained so many valuable lessons in those two and a half years that I think it has been crucial for these 12 years. And yet yeah, the stuff I learned that I worked at Kukar, the boiling water tap company. The stuff I know there has been crucial for where I am now.
- [37:41]
B
Do you design freelance for others today?
- [37:44]
A
No. Find it quite difficult. I think I mean, for Kukar, it was. It was more engineering than. Than, so to say design. But I. I don't do it.
- [37:59]
B
Could we say your lucky break or the big break was the Miffy watch?
- [38:05]
A
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. One that. That's got picked up. I mean, I built the first 25 watches when I was still working at Kukker. So I was doing every night, I went to my workshop making and working every weekend to complete this first 25 watches. But after that I noticed there was so much demand for this and I was approached by Waco from Revolution to do a collaboration. And that was the. The moment that I thought, okay, now I can go full time. I should take it. I should take the waste to do it.
- [38:44]
B
So Miffy in Dutch is Nanken. Nankim comes from Konanke, which is rabbit. It's basically the Dutch equivalent of hello Kitty.
- [38:54]
A
Yeah, you could say that.
- [38:55]
B
How did you come up with the idea?
- [38:57]
A
It was. It was. I would. It wasn't mostly more like a brainwave or like the direct. I said direct thing that led to this was that I saw a friend of mine, our director, who had a pillow filled with Miffy.
- [39:26]
B
Images.
- [39:26]
A
Characters. Yeah, characters are like child toys anyhow, and dolls basically on. On a. On a pillow. And. And this was a really serious guy and he was. He's a. I think he's quite a valued art director. So. And then I thought, oh, this is actually quite brilliant and it's super nice. And then. And then I think it hit me like, okay, what if I make a watch with Niffy? I mean, of course I thought, I buy that time. Like three years ago, I'd already been in the Watch World for 10 years or something, so I learned about character watches. I'd seen other brands, I mean, working with Mickey Mouse or. Or Snoopy, so I was aware of that. But when I saw the Miffy, it made a connection for me. Like, okay, this is something I could do. And I really liked it from the beginning. Straight away, people really thought I was crazy. People really thought I was crazy because it was so different from what I was doing because I was really in this vintage driving style. And the brand with the visualizations as well, we really in the. Yeah, this, this gentleman driver theme. And then suddenly I was doing something with the child's character. People. People really didn't understand it.
- [40:45]
B
Was it locally or international?
- [40:47]
A
What do you mean?
- [40:48]
B
The people that touch. You're crazy with Dutch people.
- [40:51]
A
Both.
- [40:52]
B
Both.
- [40:52]
A
Yeah, both. But. But mainly. Maybe, probably mainly Dutch people because in the Netherlands, we mostly know her As a child thing. But internationally she's also really recognized as a art. Art figure. So more. And it's, it's. It's not only in. I mean I've newborn and I mean every, every child is raised with, with mythic books. But it's so much more than that. And that's sometimes hard to. To understand for.
- [41:23]
B
Well, it's a Holland also a star. It's a design icon.
- [41:28]
A
It was the.
- [41:30]
B
But no, the design. And then the creator was. He created the design language.
- [41:38]
A
Yep. The cartoons. That's what I really. I mean when I started with Miffy and I also started investigating into Miffy and then you realize, oh, Dick Bruno was actually influenced by the style by Bauhaus. He uses the same colors. He was inspired by Mondrian and he has the same minimalistic language in Miffy. And what I also really liked is that Miffy is not like. Miffy doesn't used to be like she is now. I mean it has been an evolution. The first Miffy was completely different. She evolved over time. And that's something like what I really appreciate in design and in art if something evolves like that. So this was also an eye opener and all the connection was there. It was really quintessentially Dutch. It was art, a piece of art influence from boss to the style, which I really like. And you see a bit of my design language. So yeah, I think the connection was great.
- [42:44]
B
So while we're recording this, you are selling a wide ceramic version of the Miffy watch which you called the last edition. Yeah. Why?
- [42:57]
A
Well, the honest answer is that that they allowed me to do a few editions and this is the last one allowed me to do it. Yeah. And then they is the owners from mifi.
- [43:08]
B
So that's a foundation today.
- [43:10]
A
Yeah.
- [43:10]
B
So unlike Disney or Marvel or DC comics that plaster it on cheap clothing to expensive watches like on a mapk watches. Miffy doesn't operate like that.
- [43:20]
A
They really have to. To grant it.
- [43:25]
B
You like the, the license?
- [43:27]
A
Yeah. It's not, it's not like, oh, I want this license. I approach them, okay, I want to. I, I am. I'm buying your license and I'll make watches with Miffy. No, they say, what, what are you going to do? What do you want to do? You have to make the proposal. And then they, and then they are saying, okay, yeah, we like it. No, we don't like it. We're not or we're not interested in this. And I think it's still actually it might still be family owned. It's it's like it's official company still. So. And yeah, but they are not. I mean they're. The demand for Miffy is so big for some people. It's, it's, it's new, it's, it's. But the demand is so big that I mean their job is just to say yes and no. So I mean there's so many people want to work with them that they're just really picky. That's also. They really still want to create a brand around Miffy. So. And they have a vision what fits the brand and whatnot. And that's why they also like really picky.
- [44:29]
B
Which I assume you're happy with as another brand that works with them.
- [44:35]
A
Yeah, very happy. It's really unlikely that they will do something else with watch brand like this.
- [44:43]
B
Would you call yourself a Dutch brand?
- [44:46]
A
Yep.
- [44:47]
B
Although how much is produced in Ireland?
- [44:52]
A
If. If we would follow the Swiss made standards, it would be. Or it would be Dutch made.
- [44:59]
B
So the Swiss sand is 60% of the value.
- [45:01]
A
Yeah.
- [45:02]
B
Of the production and then X percentage.
- [45:05]
A
Of the components, spare parts.
- [45:06]
B
So by that standard you reach most definite touch made. Whereas we don't have a standard.
- [45:12]
A
Do we know it? No.
- [45:14]
B
That's weird though because Tu Delft should actually formalize that.
- [45:18]
A
Yeah. Yep. We would have to come up with a good phrase. Yeah. Always difficult. Made in Holland. It's too long. Dutch made. Is it? So.
- [45:26]
B
So you as a designer, is Dutch design a thing?
- [45:32]
A
Yeah, I think so. But yeah. Maybe you could take it a bit broader. Like Northern European design. It's maybe too broad, but I mean the, the style. The style. Or also the art movement. Yeah. And Bauhaus. They're all very similar and influenced by each other. And then we have this Scandinavian design which also has these, these influences. So I definitely think there. I mean there's a history there and I've. Yeah, I think it's, it's. But it's now I'm not sure how it is these days. I mean it's. The world has become such a village. Yeah, village indeed.
- [46:16]
B
Is the Reichen called Dutch design?
- [46:22]
A
I like to think so and I think. But I always think it's Dutch design but. But with a little bit of, with a bit of romance and pragmatism. Yeah, but like in essence it's Dutch design. And because I. I don't like to do stuff that's like exorbitant or like. I really like to follow the form, polish, function and that things have to be there and so that they have the function. I really follow that.
- [46:58]
B
Is there another Dutch watch brand that does Dutch design?
- [47:09]
A
Not in that sense. I would say that maybe Pelican from Utrecht is maybe the thing that's the branded is the closest to that. I mean there are quite a lot of this brands nowadays, but they all have their own style. And I wouldn't say. I mean Michelle is doing something really nice, but it's. I wouldn't say he's following the. He's more. More his own style. Not really that.
- [47:40]
B
That's the whole thing. Yeah, he's in the stratosphere.
- [47:43]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
- [47:47]
B
I have so many questions and I'm looking at the clock and running out and I don't have a list. We usually don't prepare these interviews and what I need to touch upon really quickly for our dear listeners. I need to always do this as if I'm a listener and I have so much to ask you. You said 60%. At least you do in Holland. So what do you guys do in Holland?
- [48:11]
A
One of the obvious things is to do assembly. I know that we do engineering that's also counted in Switzerland as a part of Made in Switzerland. And it's a very important part. But for instance, for the Miffy Moon phase, we also make the complete Moonphase disc ourselves. For the Moonphase disc, for instance, it has to be turned. It's made here. It's first CNC turned. Then it comes to our workshop back under the CNC lathe. We do a final operation on the conventional lathe by hand for fitting of the gear. On the back we have a fiber laser to etch away all the material to make the moonphase disc really 3D. Then we do finishing of the Moonphase disc. Then it's plated for the black plating. That's done in the Netherlands, but the blue plating needs done in Switzerland. Then it comes back to the workshop. We do quality control. Then it goes back to Switzerland for the application of Super Luminova. Then it comes back to our shop. We apply the gear on the back and then the final assembly for the steel cases. At the moment we still do all the finishing ourselves. The polishing of the case, the finishing of the case backs, engraving of the case backs. So it's a bit of. For enamel dials, we do a lot still or cells. Most of the. The. Well, it's always difficult to. To say it in percentages, but a lot of the work of the enamel dial is done in the workshop. Not a lot of the work is necessary for the preparation before the enameling. Enameling is done by a specialist in Ukraine. But all the base of the dial is made in our workshop. Pet printing is done in the workshop.
- [50:09]
B
You're based in Dordrecht, south of Holland, the province South Holland. So we call that 010 in Epsom, where 00:20.
- [50:18]
A
We have all these.
- [50:19]
B
This frenemy relationship you speak about we. How big is the team?
- [50:25]
A
Yeah, I like to speak about we. I feel I'm doing people like I'm doing short people who are so active in supporting me. But I mean, in essence, I'm still alone. I'm responsible for marketing, for development, for sales. But as I said before, I work with the watchmaker, still as a freelancer. He worked from Paris, but also from Morteau. And I work with a good friend of mine who's helping me with engineering, also as a freelancer, now working. Also doing quite a lot of animation. So more the marketing stuff. Also working with the freelancer here, for instance. So, you know, I try to find the right people to create a good professional working environment around me, but at the moment it's all freelance. But it gives me also flexibility.
- [51:29]
B
So can you assemble watch gallery?
- [51:32]
A
Yeah. So you're out of didactic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm still learning. Yeah.
- [51:40]
B
I think, and I'm putting words, maybe in your mouth, that it's kind of a blessing that you can't make more Miffy watches because you always had the stigma of being that Miffy Guy. The Miffy brand.
- [51:53]
A
Is that correct? Most certainly. And I mean, if. If we were not so. So if we would not have the. The fear of losing the license, which we had for the past three years, and I mean, if we lose the license, it's just. It's finished. And that's. That's. I mean, it's finished now, almost. But if we would not have had that. That fear, then we would have done a little differently and. But now, I mean, there was so much demand for it, we just had to do it.
- [52:26]
B
And there's nothing wrong with that. And I want to salute you. If those that are listening right now did miss the episode we recorded in Geneva a few months ago where you launched A Time to Watches, the Land, Air and Sea collection that you designed together with Guy island, while looking at your website, I only see one of them left. So you had three beautiful enamel dolls.
- [52:51]
A
Yep.
- [52:51]
B
And three different color tones. Does that mean they're almost sold out?
- [52:55]
A
The other two are sold out.
- [52:57]
B
They are sold out, yeah. So you sold them out in less than Two months?
- [53:00]
A
No, we. We already launched them last year. Okay. But Geneva was the second event that they were put out like live. People could touch them and see them in real life. But we're taking a bit longer to.
- [53:15]
B
Because we conclude you are suffering from success.
- [53:18]
A
You face it.
- [53:19]
B
Not for this, because what I miss is the initial model, the core, the rike Vermeer model, the spiel version with the planes down.
- [53:28]
A
I'm in that sense, also perfectionist. And we will be relaunching it, but I want to change a few things, but it takes sometime so.
- [53:42]
B
So maybe to round up this. This interview and maybe focus on the entrepreneurship side of things. What bottlenecks do you encounter 12 years down the line? Because I could conclude that one of them is success. That is a bottleneck.
- [53:56]
A
Yeah.
- [53:57]
B
Could we say that?
- [53:58]
A
Yeah. Well, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the years of revolution was an. Hindsight was maybe a bit too much. It was real. Was real. So you're referring.
- [54:08]
B
You've done two collabs with Revolution magazine. A blue and a pink. Baby blue or a typical color blue and a pink.
- [54:15]
A
No, it was his normal blue, but no more blue. And then a pink one. Yeah. Yeah.
- [54:20]
B
So those you say the success was two grand.
- [54:24]
A
Yeah. Because, I mean, I learned so much also in the past three years doing this full time. You learn so much from, I don't know, suppliers and from working with different suppliers and which supplier goes, what better? And. And this whole process. For the first revolution dials, the blue ones, I all painted all the dials myself in the workshop. It was. It was such a horrible job. I know. It's stuff like that that I would do now. Completely different. We glued in all the sapphire inserts in these dials. We glued them in our cells with the translucent UV blue. I don't know. This was stuff like in hindsight. Okay. That was crazy. And now I would do it so much different. Sorry, I forgot the question.
- [55:18]
B
What the bottlenecks you encounter as an entrepreneur? Do you suffer from a ritus block?
- [55:24]
A
Thinking of the next chapter? No. Last year. Because I know. I knew. And I mean, it's. It's. It's also very good that we're. That this is the last Mythe series because it's forcing me to come up with something new. Yeah. And that's why we came up with Guy Allen, which was also very successful. So. Which I'm really happy about that. And. But apart from that, I knew last year. Okay. I have to. We. Now. What's. What's next? Like what we're going to do now. And it forced me for I think three months to only focus on designing and kind of like a pressure cooker we are now we developed something I think super nice that will be launched hopefully still this year. But to get back to your question, the bottlenecks, I mean, you have to do thousand things at once and you can only focus on one thing and that's a bottleneck. Keeping the sales on track while still developing and really trying to do different things. I mean, also for the watch we are now working on, I mean we're doing things differently. We're creating a completely new sapphire crystal. And then you have to find the right suppliers, you have to order samples, see how they get. The first samples didn't work. And then this whole process itself is so tiny, consuming. And then the business still has to go. Yeah.
- [57:04]
B
How many watches have you produced up until today?
- [57:07]
A
Around 600.
- [57:10]
B
So while looking at Chrono 24 right now there are only six for sale.
- [57:14]
A
Yeah.
- [57:15]
B
So that's 1%.
- [57:16]
A
Yeah.
- [57:17]
B
If I want the basic version, I can't even get it. Are you bringing it back? Are you going to work with a core collection? Because today one of the bishop is.
- [57:26]
A
One of the goals.
- [57:27]
B
That's one of the goals. So where is the Raichenko in five years from now? What do you dream?
- [57:33]
A
I hope that by then we have a bit. We will have more of the collection, like a base collection with stock models we could sell. I hope we have a few retailers, selected retailers. I'm a bit hesitant about that. But yeah, I think we need it in the future. But I want to keep the focus on developing, on creating new stuff on engineering. And we're taking all. We are now taking our first steps in movement development as well. So who knows what happens if life is. Why?
- [58:14]
B
Because you like it or because you need?
- [58:16]
A
Because I think one of the things, one of the most important things for me to stand out and one of the things that, that, that are my. That I'm good at is developing and creating new stuff. And then why movement? Because I see so many brands these days launching a really nice watch that I'm thinking like, okay, how can I do better than that? I mean a nice watch is one thing, but where can we focus on and where I would say I'm not good at marketing, I suck at marketing. But I really like to create and I really like to focus on that. And I also really like to do engineering and to focus on engineering. So I think if we focus on that, we can be really distinctive and we can really create value and make a really nice product. So that's why I really want to focus more on that. Yeah.
- [59:18]
B
Will you make watches that are not drivers watches with swivel case?
- [59:24]
A
Yeah, because it's one of the things I realized, I think already a few years back. In the beginning I really want to focus on only the driving theme, but I thought it was from in my eyes, I already created like the perfect driving watch. We could do another theme on that. But I realized that I prefer to build a brand that's broader than that and not limit myself to do only that area. To stay in the analogy of Jaeger LeCoultre or Jaeger LeCoultre, you have the Reverso, which is a very important piece of their collection. But I think there could also be room to develop a dress watch. I can do it in my complete, in my own style and really different than what what exists today, for instance.
- [60:18]
B
I can't wait to see all these developments. Lawrence, thank you so much for coming into the studio and sharing your journey.
- [60:26]
A
Thanks. Thanks for having me.
- [60:27]
B
It was amazing. We wish you the best of luck. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. You can find all our previous episodes on our official website www.therealtime.show and you can find us on Instagram via the handle herealtime Show. If you like what we do, please support us by subscribing, liking, rating this show and sharing it with your friends. If you have any questions, feedback and or criticism, please do send us a message. You can also DM us if you want to join the TRTS community. We have an awesome community on WhatsApp where Lawrence is actually a member of. So if you want to chat directly with him, we encourage you to join the community. Do you like the community, Lawrence?
- [61:20]
A
Yes, definitely.
- [61:21]
B
You actually learn stuff on there?
- [61:23]
A
Oh yeah, I learned a lot. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah.
- [61:26]
B
So you can reach Rob via his email roberealtown show or on his IG via Rob Nudds and you can message me via alone therealtime show and find me on the gram via 801bnjos eph. You can find our co hosts as well on our website therealtime show. Stay sane and Keep on ticking Sa.