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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:06]
B
Welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds. Today I am joined with one of the watchmaking scene's up and coming superstars, Matteo Viele Vianello. How are you, Matteo? Welcome to the studio.
- [00:20]
A
I'm very, very good. Thanks for having me, Rob.
- [00:22]
B
My pleasure. We were introduced maybe last Geneva watch days, so 2024, but by Scarlet Baker, I believe, will we not?
- [00:32]
A
That's right. I think it's one of those kind of days, days where you end up kind of like bumping into loads of people in. In the same kind of like confined space. So I think it was on the terrace of the Bori Varge, if I remember correctly, outside at some point.
- [00:46]
B
Absolutely, that's exactly what I remember. Also we were sitting out there, there was an interesting group of people, a few journalists I know, Sarah from Bremont was there and your man that's famous for the slot drops with his beautiful. What's his name? Daniel. He was, he was there also with his beautiful jacket. And we're all handing around your inaugural timepiece to great fanfare, because for anyone that doesn't know Anoma Matteo's brand, it is one of the most talked about new labels on the market because you've created. Well, how should we say, it's a beautiful form. Watch. It's a triangular pebble, as I would describe it. But how would you describe the original model? The A1?
- [01:26]
A
Is it the A1? That's right. I'd say. I'd say that a triangular pebble is a. Is a good way to. To sum it up. I think for me it was really born from a desire to treat the watch a bit more as a sculpture than a watch. And there were a few influences on that. So one of them is kind of like pebbles and sea stones as you reference. So that definitely got infused into. Into the language. And then the triangular side of it actually comes from a 1950s table from a French designer called Charlotte Bayonne, who worked a lot with these organic forms. So it was a little bit of collision of those influences, kind of natural worlds, furniture worlds. I also borrowed from Brancusi a little bit the kind of early 20th century sculptor, and the way he kind of would contrast thin and kind of expansive forms in the way that the case is built. So it's kind of a mix of different influences, but at its core it's really down to that desire to create a very tactile, very sensual based cultural object that people enjoy passing around.
- [02:31]
B
I mean, this is incredible to hear and it's lovely to speak with somebody that has such a grasp of their approach to the craft of watchmaking. It's very clear that you extremely well studied on the fields of sculpture, art, design and pull from all different areas of your experience of life, the physical creations of others and the organic world around us. It's very interesting, I'm sure to many people who listen to this podcast in the hope of starting their own brand one day, to hear such a well versed approach to it. Give us an idea about your background, Matteo, because you sound like somebody that has lived their life with their eyes very much wide open to experience. And it's, you know, intriguing, Timmy, to know where you came from and how you found yourself here as one of the most talked about new watchmakers on the scene.
- [03:16]
A
Sure, it's funny. It's definitely one of those things where you look back and you connect the dots, looking backwards as to the different influences. And if I look at Anoma, obviously still is a work in progress, but there's always some kind of key strong character traits there. And I look back to my life, brief as it's been, I can see some of the things that, that led to it. So I was, my dad's French, my mum's Italian. I was born and raised in Paris, really kind of very much in a. In an environment that, you know, favored and appreciated the arts. So when we were kids, we'd be kind of dragged to various museums, exhibitions, taught about kind of art and culture in its various forms. My great grandfather on my mother's side was actually a jeweler, very much in the artisanal sense of, you know, crafting and making his own pieces of jewelry, usually kind of one off or bespoke that he would design and create. So when we were growing up, his work, the stories of his life, the pieces of jewelry that he left behind were always something that either my mother was wearing or eventually my sister started wearing, but always was always part of the conversation. And so I think from a very young age, existing in that environment of, you know, appreciation of craft, beauty for arts and culture in its wider sense really influenced me. And I also, in parallel to that, accidentally fell down the watch rabbit hole. So when I was about, I think, six or seven, I came across some broken vintage watches in a drawer at home. Nothing special, just a few kind of old Seikos, but instantly started getting kind of like fascinated with these small kind of mechanical objects, started disassembling them, removing components, trying to swap components between the, the Watches. And it opened up a whole, whole rabbit hole. And I think, you know, that was from, from a young age. But throughout my life I've really had these kind of dual tracks in a way of this passion for watches specifically is objects that gather a lot of different interesting elements. The engineering side, the art side, the cultural and social relevance side. And then in parallel, always being interested more widely in the world of design, furniture, architecture and arts. And then eventually did something completely different. Uni studied philosophy, went on, then later to work at Sotheby's, and A Collected man in London focused on watches. And that was my real chance, first chance to get hands on with, you know, some really spectacular pieces from, you know, the great vintage stuff, kind of AP Patek, 50s and 60s, all the way to the independence, which was obviously a big part of what we did at A Collected man in London. So getting to handle the work of Jean Dufour, Derek Pratt, Boutilane and those kinds of people, often having the opportunity to meet those people as well. And I think what really cemented in my mind was this appreciation for very singular, independent and undiluted visions of watchmaking. In the case of the names I've mentioned, it's very much driven by a watchmaking approach. But I really respected that. The idea of the same way you might have an artist who has something singularly want to say that that's how I think of the independence in relation to maybe some of the larger manufacturers. You only become independent because you have something singular you want to say. And then I was a collector man for a few years, and then I had a bit of an aha moment at one point where I thought, there's so much experimentation on the mechanical side of watchmaking, whether it's finishing or complication. And on the design side, it's often very iterative within a certain design language or harking back to a certain period of watchmaking, whether it's Dufour harking back to La Valle du jour in the 19th century, whether it's recheck taking cues from mid century Patek to some extent in some of his more recent work. But I thought there's so much beauty, so much experimentation outside of watchmaking, be it from the organic world of nature to the built world of architecture and furniture, that I think we could benefit from bringing into the world of watchmaking a little bit more. And that's the kind of like click I had that I thought, okay, this could be an interesting thing to pursue with anoma, really to not focus so Much on the watchmaking. But think what would happen if you treated the watch as a bit more of a sculpture, but always with your starting point and your inspiration being outside of watchmaking.
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B
So when did the pen first hit the paper? And when did those first sketches of what became the A1 originated?
- [08:10]
A
It was about, I think, in March of 2023, because I essentially left a collective man at this point, maybe a month earlier, thinking, okay, I need a little bit of time to think about what the next chapter is. I hadn't really left with an omer in mind. And I then went on. Went on a trip to kind of, like, resource myself, chill out for a bit. And then this idea kind of hit me, and I went to the closest supermarket, bought a notebook, started kind of sketching around, playing with different ideas, and sourced some inspiration. And very, very, very quickly landed on wanting to combine this idea of, like, a pebble river stone feel with this table by Charles Barrion in this kind of rounded, triangular form, because it felt at the same time like something that in this form had never really existed in watchmaking. But at the same time, there was something very essential, very pure and very timeless about it. And so I actually ended up very quickly ending on what the core. The core idea was almost within a matter of, like, I think within an hour. Like, I had it, of course, as you know. Well, it was then a kind of iteration, iteration, iteration, iteration to. To be able to do that. I kind of bring it to life and all the choices that come along with that. But the initial idea for the A1 anyway came very quickly.
- [09:40]
B
I mean, it's beautiful to see because it's very much not a contrived design. It doesn't feel over thought. It doesn't feel over raw. Even though there was a huge amount of stages that went into its creation. And the prototyping phase must have been a real headache for something so elegant or so that appears so effortless. Effortlessly elegant, I suppose, is what I'm trying to say. And that's quite rare because a lot of people don't have that fully formed conception in mind before they start sketching. They kind of feel their way around the design and add things in later, and it's. You can tell the conscious additions and deletions from a design very, very clearly sometimes, in fact, oftentimes maybe, but this is something quite different. Can you sketch yourself? Did you do all the sketches yourself, or did you work with somebody else to bring the vision that you saw in your mind to life?
- [10:30]
A
No. So I actually worked with Three separate designers to bring it to life. I can't draw very well. I can't build anything in 3D. I have no understanding of kind of like technical manufacturing constraints. And so I think my, my starting point was much more on what I wanted the brand to stand for, what I wanted the watch to feel like as well. And I used feel because very much in a, in a tactile sense, the way I wanted it to bend and distort the world around it with the reflections, it was much more kind of concept driven than I needed to look exactly like this. And the fun thing in collaborating with designers is it then kind of collides with reality and with practicality and there's obviously phases to that. So I worked with one designer, Yash, on the kind of first 2D phase and kind of how can we bring this to Life in a two dimensional sense? And then with a second designer, Max, who's much more specialized on the 3D construction of things on. Okay, how do we combine what these influences are and what the 2D visualization in terms of proportions could be into a 3D form? And then even in manufacturing there was a lot of iteration on how do we build this to get the right level of the right grade of steel so that we get a certain level of reflection. How do we polish this? How do we combine parts such a way that they're seamless? So you referenced the simplicity of the idea and I'd say a lot of the design process was me kind of trying to collide in a very positive sense, like collide, I guess, the purity of the idea with the reality of what we could do. And I think that was kind of a fun. That is what was fun. That I didn't really have any practical understanding. And if anything, now more and more what I'm trying to have to do is because you know how difficult things are when you do them, especially the work you put in to things that are very simple. It's a lot, it's a lot of work to make things simply. I almost have to remind myself not to think about execution, not to think about how things are going to be made or any kind of practical considerations in that first phase and just allow myself to be a little bit, a little bit naive and a little bit dreamy.
- [12:53]
B
It is amazing, the push and pull of the design process, isn't it? How you start off with an idea that is pure. I think pure is a better word than simple maybe because, mm, it's far from simple. The end product, that's for sure. But then the goal is to make it appear. And I always say this, it's a bit grandiose, I know, But a successful watch design shouldn't look like it's been made, it should look like it's been born. It shouldn't look like it's been touched by the hands of a human, but it should be hewn from the thoughts of God, which is extremely.
- [13:23]
A
I like that.
- [13:25]
B
I know, but you know what I.
- [13:26]
A
Mean, Like, I do, I do, I do.
- [13:28]
B
And I guess the table that you reference as a. As a significant design influence gave you the same perspective. It doesn't look like it's been messed around with. It doesn't look like it's been unduly fiddled with in any process. It's been allowed to be what it needed to be, to be itself. And that's an incredible achievement. It's underrated, I think, in the industry. And what gave me a great deal of pleasure about this release was not just how it wears on the wrist. And that's a question I'd like to ask you about, whether you had a thought in mind about the wearability of it, but how it's come together as, like, a little drop of joy. And it's like this dynamic shape that points towards the hand and seems to be pointing forwards and has this almost material acceleration to the look of it, which is, I think, a great aspect of its character, but also the reception of it. People didn't poo poo it, they didn't reject it as odd or outside of the box, as far as it is outside of the box. They were just, I would say, bewitched by it. And they take it in their hands, they turn it over, they feel it and they appreciate the sculptural characteristics of it. And then they put it on the wrist and I've not seen a single person react with anything but a satisfied smile. Now, that must be very, very satisfying for you as a designer to witness. But did you anticipate people engaging with the watch in the way you've seen them to now you've actually brought it to life physically, or did you think it would still remain more of a philosophical piece and not be such a. A daily wear as many people are treating it?
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A
So it was. I think what I was definitely surprised by was the extent to which a large number of people became enamored with it. I thought it would be, and it still is, you know, relatively niche and appeal. But I think my surprise has been, like, the number of people that have experienced delight as you've said, at seeing it for the first time, holding it, touching it, wearing it. But when I think about it, it shouldn't be surprised. It's a good surprise. But it was almost definitely engineered within the object itself. And what I mean by that is the watch itself. Yes, it's bizarre in the sense that it's not round, it's not rectangular. It's not what you're used to watching for a watch to look like. However, everything about it is incredibly familiar to us as people and incredibly, kind of incredibly, instinctively appealing. I mean, the best way I could describe it, it's a shiny, soft pebble. And in a way, our almost kind of caveman brain, which might thinks it likes Breguet numerals because it's rationalized itself to think it likes braggy numerals, is very instinctively drawn to something like this. It's soft, it's reassuring, it's shiny and therefore precious. The way it kind of like, bends and distorts the world through reflections is playful and light at the same time. It's incredibly, kind of, like, distilled. And so, in a way, if you. If you look at it through the filter of, like, I expect a watch to look a certain way, and it doesn't look like that. Therefore, no, you might. It might not be for you, but I think a lot of people just felt an instinctive draw to it because it's so natural, because it's so pure, and because it reminds them of things that are comforting, that that's the emotion it generated. I had a client of mine which described it. Described it in a way that I really liked, which was. He was like, what I love about the watch is it attracts the eye and the hand. Like, I want to look at it, but the urge is instantly to take it, to play with it, to run my fingers over it. And a lot of people who have them, who've owned them, like, have said they spend, you know, an unreasonable amount of time kind of just like, fiddling with it, playing with it. It reminds them of, you know, the stones they used to kind of ricochet over the lake or sea when they were children. But everyone seems to have a very natural draw and affinity to it. And on the point of wearability, that was definitely, definitely something I wanted to build in as well. Because, yes, it's well and nice for it to be a sculpture and experimental, but I think it being comfortable and marrying the body in some way, especially for something that's so organic in its language, was very, very important. And what I noticed about this form early on that really drew me to it is if you look at the wrist and where the, you know, the bone sits on the kind of like top right corner, it almost kind of naturally draws this kind of this kind of shape. And so the watch kind of like naturally nestles itself into the wrist. The way it was built as well is you've got this kind of like, rounded case. The bottom third of it kind of like rounds inwards. And so when it sits on the wrist, it kind of slightly floats but is absorbed very softly. The strap integrates directly into the case and is supported from above and below. So the distribution of the weight onto the strap is quite even. As opposed to when you might have lugs. You're dealing with something that's very compact as well. So it's very heavy because it's, you know, one block of steel that's essentially kind of engine from the inside. There's no hollow parts, so you end up with something that is round and soft, therefore kind of marries the contours of the wrist. It's weighty in a satisfying way, but it's super compact. And the strap kind of integrates naturally. And so the distribution means that once you have it on the wrist, there's a weightiness there, but at the same time it disappears a little bit. And those are all things I was thinking about as part of the design process.
- [19:08]
B
It's a lot to think about, and it's a lot to pull together so successfully. And I can attest to its comfort on the wrist. And when you do take time to study all the things you just mentioned, I think the appreciation of the effort that you've put into it can only grow. We are living, I would say, in a golden era of form watch design, should we say? So watches that are not the traditional round or even square rectangular shapes. We've got pieces like yours, say, Toledano and Chan with their brutalist masterpiece, and Sylvan Berneron with the Mirage and every version thereof. I was having a conversation a little while ago with Hamish Robertson of the Watch Collectors Club, and unfortunately, it was off air, as I mentioned to you, off air. Some of the best conversations sometimes occur before and after the podcast. And I want to pull a topic that we were chewing over into our discussion, and that was about hype. Now, he was of the opinion that a lot of hype around. A lot of the discussion around these form watches is hype, as in it's us, me and my colleagues in the journalistic sphere who are part of Pumping up these pieces to a degree that does not reflect the interest in the market. Now, I disagreed with him on a couple of points. One of them was, if you write a thousand articles about round watches, you are going to be naturally enthused by something that is different, something that gives you a reason to talk about watchmaking in a different way, to talk about designers coming at it from different perspectives. But what I also pointed out was a lot of these watches that we're talking about are not designed for mass consumption. Now, he saw them more as trends, and I think that they're more. They're more necessary pivots from the norm to show what is possible. And I don't think any of these watches, or any of the three I mentioned at least, will become passe or fall out of fashion eternally. I think they may come in and out like as popular as they may be now and then maybe in a few years they'll come back again to the top of the top of the mountain. But there is a need for things like this. The, the numbers that are made of these pieces is somehow important not just to their success, but to the explanation of a form. Watches importance to the industry. If you flood the market with something like this and you make 10,000 pieces a year, people will not receive it in the way that they do when there's only 300 pieces, for example, or if there's like 10 pieces or 50 pieces of something. The scarcity, the specialness does communicate somehow the, the difference in the design process and how there is a lot more that goes into it, I think, and how they are valuable objects from an emotional perspective more than a physical perspective. They go beyond what a normal watch can do in what they're able to communicate. What do you think about Hamish's position that there's a lot of hype and brands like yours are benefiting from that, but it's not sustainable, it's not a long term thing. And eventually this trend will fall off the edge of a cliff and, you know, you'll find yourselves unable to sell watches. What do you think about my position that it's more than hype? There is a genuine enthusiasm and need for pieces like this, although I don't believe that they are necessarily the mainstream.
- [22:43]
A
I think it's obviously a little bit biased, but I think probably closer to your position. It depends how we define hype, but I think to some extent is there more coverage and excitement around these watches than is representative of the average consumer and all the people who buy a watch Definitely there's only so many. Let's take Breitling, for example, as a brand. There are many, many multiples, tens, hundreds, thousands of more people who are more interested in buying a Breitling watch that will be interested in buying an Anoma or a Berner or a Toledano and Chan. However, I think a lot of the excitement that has occurred from journalists, collectors, people in the community is down to the fact that, like, yes, but we know those things. There's the. Those other things have always been there. They're iterating. There's exciting evolution there. But we need these slightly more rebellious misfits to be part of the conversation. And it's always going to be niche. It's always going to be for a small group of people. But I think it'd be unfair to say it doesn't need to be something that needs to be talked about and spotlighted, because people, excitement doesn't come out of nowhere. It's not manufactured. Excitement is organic. And then people talk, talk about it, and that's what gets them going. And I think to a large extent, why that's beneficial is I think it allows a lot of people say consumers. So we've, you know, I've definitely benefited and the other brands you mentioned have definitely benefited from, you know, the amount of coverage and attention they get. But I think what it does is it allows a lot of consumers who otherwise would be like, I'm not sure, is it me? Should I go for something like this to allow themselves to take that risk, to be slightly more experimental and almost surprise themselves and then realize the joy that that generates? Because I think the big surprise for me that's been really reassuring in a way, is seeing who actually my clients are. And before I launched, I thought it'd be people like me maybe had certain sensibilities and were drawn to these things. But there's been a lot of quote, unquote, incredibly normal collectors. Maybe someone has one Speedmaster and a Grand Seiko and they buy this. Maybe. You know, I had someone who has only one other watch, which is a Rolex that he got when he was 18, he's now 25, and he wants to buy this. And he told me, I'm glad I have my Noma. So now I finally have something interesting to wear to tell people about. And that's not to say anything about Rolex. You know, they do what they do and do it fantastically well. But I think the point is that it's. It's an alternative point of view that will be Valuable for a lot of people who want that. That's not most people, but I think it is necessary that we exist, and it's valuable that we exist. And I think all of us, whether it's Sylvain or Phil and Alfred, we all felt a similar thing two, three years ago around, well, why isn't there these kind of more different voices, especially on the kind of like, design and sculpture side of things. And we arrived at the same time. And that also meant that there was an element of people like, oh, there's a movement. And so I think that's a big. A big driver behind a lot of this.
- [25:52]
B
Yeah, I think you're right. And I think your definition of hype is a very good one and a fair one. And I think that's really what Hamish was driving at, that it was a disproportionate representation in the media of these pieces versus the perhaps hard numbers of people that would have desired these watches. Maybe before they saw them. I'm sure a lot more desire them now they have seen them. I think maybe I reacted badly to the term hype and because I see it's kind of a dirty word that people throw around sometimes to mean like an unjustifiable inflation of something. And I think that maybe that was where I picked up on his very valid and fair comments. And I think you expressed the validity of those comments quite nicely in your answer there as well. Because I was thinking, well, I don't think it's unjustifiable. I do agree that, like, maybe there is a disproportionate number of column inches afforded to form watches that are exciting. And maybe in my mind, a better word than hype is just enthusiasm. Like, we're genuinely enthused. And they're so different. It's no doubt that they feature so disproportionately in the media. Because whenever somebody writes a list of, let's say someone, an editor comes down to a contributor and says, okay, I want you to write two lists. One is the best five form watches on the market right now, and the other one is the best five round watches on the market right now. Obviously, you guys are gonna have a much higher chance, relatively speaking, of getting into that list than any other round watch, regardless of maker, regardless of heritage, regardless of finishing quality, artisanal credibility or anything like that. And I, I do really think that it helps to have this very widely discussed alternative because as you said, the 18 year old to 25 year old Rolex buyer to Anoma buyer, that pathway that Evolution is a very natural one for people to travel and it's valuable in their watch collecting journey. As you said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a Rolex. In fact, that may be the top line selling point of a Rolex. Try and fault this watch if you can, like, good luck. It's brilliant. But does it stimulate some of that creative itch, the soulfulness that watchmaking can elicit within those that really feel it rather than think it? And the answer is probably no. Would I like a Rolex? Yeah, I've had Rolexes. I've sold them all. I've ended up buying more brands from makers like yourself and similar because I find them more interesting and I find the people behind the stories interesting. So let's just talk a little bit more about you. Let's go back to your childhood. You mentioned you have a sister.
- [28:29]
A
That's right, older sister, younger brother, Older sister, younger brother.
- [28:33]
B
I was curious because you, you mentioned before you mentioned your sister explicitly, you'd said when we were kids. And I was thinking, okay, so this is a guy that has siblings. Now. Where you fall on the sibling tree is always revealing. You're a middle child.
- [28:46]
A
Very, very revealing. I think middle child syndrome is meant to be. You're always fighting for attention, right? Always need to be told that you master, that you're special. And in a way, you know, you don't really start a watch brand unless you feel like you. You need to be seen and appreciated. So I'm sure that there's something in there.
- [29:04]
B
Interesting. Interesting. What was your relationship like with your siblings when you were growing up?
- [29:09]
A
Very good. I mean, we were all very close in years. Like my sister's two years older than me, my brother's three years younger. So all kind of like very, very tight in age. And we're fairly close family. So my sister, now I was born and raised in Paris, she still lives in Paris. My brother lives in London as well, about 10 minutes from where I live. So we all see each other a fair bit still, but we're all very close. I think that was partially fostered by my parents because my mum's a single child. My dad also comes from a relatively small family, so I think they were very keen to build, I guess, a close family unit. And the ultimate testament is they've all bought Nomas. So if that's any signs of the fact that we're a close family, put your money where your mouth is.
- [29:52]
B
Any discount or no discounts?
- [29:55]
A
I don't do discounts, even for family.
- [29:57]
B
I'm not sure whether that says that you're close or not close, but it's certainly a testament to their belief in you. Since I said so. I'm the oldest of three. Okay, so we're a bit further apart. There's three between me and my brother, who's the middle child, and there's eight between me and my sister, who's the youngest. And she was always the one that got the attention as the baby of the group. Obviously, I had a few years on my own when I was the golden boy, and I absolutely loved it. But then my brother came along and was kind of like me, Mark 2. Like, he was just better at everything. Better at school, better at sports. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I kind of became chop liver. You know, I was cast to the side. And I always was looking for, like, validation and attention. Despite, like, being supposedly the old one that had their head screwed on and, like, you know, the independent one. I became very close to my granddad as a result. And I wonder how the dynamic was between you three and one, whether you were, because of the dynamic with you being closer together, also close to your grandfather, the jewelry maker, the artisan. Clearly an inspiration in that regard.
- [30:54]
A
So it was. It's quite interesting because I think our development as siblings, I think, was very much tied down to the sequence, because what I mean by that is, like, my sister's the oldest, two younger brothers. So my sister's very much the kind of like, bossy boots in the family. She's now a lawyer, very much by the rules. Rules with, like, an iron fist. Dictatorial. Very, very rational.
- [31:16]
B
She sounds great. She sounds just like me.
- [31:18]
A
Yeah. She's honestly older sibling. And then you combine older sister with two younger brothers, like you need to be. And she's about 1 meter 55. So she's tiny. So she's like. So her name is Lucretia Lu, and her nickname growing up is Kim Jong L, which I think will tell you everything. Everything you need to know.
- [31:38]
B
Wow. Okay.
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A
Which I. Which I recounted at her wedding recently. And it got, like, furious laughter from the room in a way that, like, everyone knows exactly why. So she was, like, very tutorial, very rational, my brother. It kind of being the youngest child, maybe the more. Kind of like a bit more ethereal, a bit more artistic. And I was kind of probably somewhere in the middle. Can kind of, like, speak some of my sister's language, but I'm like, ah, we don't need to be so rational about everything. And they definitely share some of my brothers, like, artistic, sensibilities so it was almost like a sliding scale, which is quite funny, but we're all like very, very different as a result. But that's part of the fun.
- [32:17]
B
Yeah, we're the same. And it's interesting that you highlight the sliding scale. It couldn't be more similar with the three of us as well, to be honest. It's very, very interesting that you've been the one to take that sort of beautiful fusion of, of the two, as it were, and to go on and start your own business in such a competitive industry like watchmaking. Tell me this. So do you feel that it has been extremely competitive for you coming into it because everyone has different experiences? Of course. Like, I've been slogging away at this watchmaking game for 22 years now and, you know, I sort of have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about it in some ways because I'm like, damn it, why? Why don't I have my own brand yet? You know, because I keep getting distracted by podcasts and writing articles and, you know, helping other people build their brand rather than starting my own. But you had this vision in 2023. You said, it's now 2025 and you're already effectively. And I guess this pun is slightly intended thanks to the table part of the furniture. So, I mean, how did you do it really?
- [33:14]
A
So in a way, I have found it very competitive and in another, not at all. And what I mean by that is my starting point was not I would like to start a brand. What brand do I start? My starting point was, what right do I have to exist as a brand? I think every brand needs to have to add to the conversation, to add something significant, of value to the community and to the people ultimately buying a watch. If you don't, then you're at the mercy of, you know, then it's going to be incredibly, incredibly difficult because you have no ability to distinguish yourself, no ability to stand out. And so I kind of start from the basis point that everything's going to be very hard and therefore everything needs to be not flawless but like, done for a reason and done to a very high standard. You know, what I hope in my case is like, the design is thought through. The reason for being for the band is thought through. The way I now evolve this into the future beyond this has like a coherence to it that is very specific to the brand. The photography, the presentation, the actual production, the way, you know, I hands, I do a hand signed note for every watch when it arrives. I've been so anal about how it's packaged, how it's dispatched reply to every single email of everyone who writes in. Personally, I think you have to really be excellent on every single point to be able to compete because there's a lot of very good alternatives. But I think if you're able to have your own little corner of the market, you are almost not competing in a way. And what I mean by that is there are other brands, you know, playing in a similar, with a similar language, a similar desire that you as like the ones that you mentioned. But I'm not thinking, oh, how do I bring out a new cool field watch? And who are my comparables in the field watch territory? I would like my logic to be much more internal in terms of like, what do I want to express, what do I think is special and interesting? And then as long as it's honest, singular and done for the right reasons, I think people will follow or not follow. And so that's the approach I'm trying to take in a way. And in, in that sense it lowers the competition because you feel like you're only competing with the best version of yourself and the best version of the brand can be. And ultimately it's always going to be competitive to get someone to give you their hard earned money. But I think you kind of have to start from the point of like, you have to do everything well for that to happen across, you know, as I mentioned, conceptualization, design, production, presentation. But that's also what's more fun is like, how can you actually convince people and bring people on board to the journey? And what I'd say on the competition side as well, what's been interesting is even on the supplier side, it's been, it was very hard initially to find suppliers who were on board for making something like this because they instantly see this and they're like, yeah, no big headache. However, if you find people who bind to the vision and are like just full enamored with it because, you know, we forget that a lot of people do this out of passion, then in a way it's not as hard as if I had a more traditional watch. It becomes easier because you open your door because people are like, oh, like I really, I really want to cover this, I really want to write about this. If they're a journalist or I really want to help you make this. If they're a supplier or if they're a customer, they're like, you know what? I, I want to help you bring your vision to life because it's bold and it's different. And so in a way, some things are much harder and always will be hard, but some other things, it removes an element of a competition in a really nice way.
- [37:05]
B
So listen to this. I am exhausted because I'm thinking about how much time you must have to spend, like doing all of these little bits that add value to the customer experience. Signing notes for everyone, responding to all those emails yourself. Is it just you in the company at the moment?
- [37:20]
A
It's just me at the moment inside, yeah.
- [37:23]
B
So that raises the question, are you going to scale? Do you want to scale? Do you have a top volume goal of how many pieces you think you can produce a year while still maintaining this level of customer service?
- [37:36]
A
For me, there's no, there's no goal in terms of scaling in number of pieces or scaling in kind of like top line revenue, anything more like that. It's more scaling and ambition, if that makes sense. So it's more. Okay, there's all these things I want to play with, all these things I want to experiment with and I would like increasingly to go towards that. So I guess it's more creative scaling than it is tangible number of pieces or anything like that. But when it comes to the attention for detail and taking care of customers, that will need to scale proportionally as well. Like everything needs to scale. Because I think if you, if I say, well, I'm going to do more but with the same resources. And also it means I'm going to drop the ball on quality of manufacturing or I'm going to drop the ball on every single person receiving a watch feeling like everything from the packaging to the car that comes with it has been thought through, then I think you, you compromise a really essential part of the brand, which is that I hope people feel hat can thoroughly goes into every little detail. So if I ever do scale to the point where I get too stretched for a lot of those things and that time will come and it'll come soon, it'll definitely be about how can I keep these things as I grow? Because in my mind they're non negotiables. I mean, even if I look to my packaging, my packaging is unreasonably difficult to make. I got told by suppliers it's unreasonably expensive to make. It's like solid walnut box that involves a lot of like hand polishing to bring to life. And I was like, well, it has to. It has to. I think packaging in my eyes is special because it helps show what you stand for before you even get to the Product of the kind of tangible watch. And that's the thing where I didn't want to compromise them. It's paid off in the sense that people have identified with that level of, like, attention to detail and desire to, like, make the language and the approach coherent on everything. But if I lose that, if I lose those things, then everything kind of fizzles. So I think the coherence across everything I do is very important, and keeping that in the future will be very important.
- [39:52]
B
So as you do grow and you become more stretched, what do you think the first ball you are likely to drop would be? And therefore, where do you think you would need help before other areas?
- [40:05]
A
I think realistically in the thing I would need the soonest is relates to anything operational and logistical, because, as you know, there's so many moving parts between different components, different suppliers, kind of like tracking the timelines of when did you order what, when will it arrive, ensuring things get to customers safely and on time. And so I think that is, you know, a big, big, big part of what I do, especially with my approach, where I've chosen to go to specific suppliers for each component and try to find the best people for each. It's much more burdensome and it adds a lot more time and complexity to your supply chain, ultimately for quality. But it does. It does become a bit of a burden. And so I think realistically it would be that and then some of the more routine elements of customer service linked to that around delivery timelines, around when things are going to arrive in the future, servicing. So I think all those things that are essential to the business, but which also probably aren't my strength around the kind of more operational, logistical side of things is where I think in the short term, the most value would be bought. So I can focus more on the vision side, design relationships with clients. And focusing, I guess, on what I.
- [41:30]
B
Do best makes perfect sense, especially because, you know, you talked about not scaling for the sake of scaling, but creative scaling. So let's talk about that future vision of yours for the brand and what pieces are about to hit the shelves and what has already hit the shelves this year. So where this episode is going out in November, so we know what's already come way back in summer and seen by many of us at Geneva watch days. So tell us about that and then tell us about what's on the horizon. Sure. So the.
- [42:03]
A
The thought process, I guess, with Anoma is to have these almost like foundational sculptures. So the A1, eventually the A2 for 2026. But these kind of like core sculptures or forms that allow themselves to different reinterpretations. And when they're the result of different influences of that, you can kind of lean into those more or less. So with the first two launches, the kind of first series and the slate, there was a definite kind of conscious choice of. With the first series, you know, this kind of like blue lacquer dial play on, you know, introducing the shape to the world and people getting comfortable with that. With the slate, there was the follow up design that took a kind of similar dial layout but brought in a lot more kind of level with the kind of like brushing and the engraving and the lacquering. It was. How do I now distill this to something that's like very pure, very simple. But increasingly my desire was to, you know, leave. There's still remnants of watch language in there and watch design language and increasingly push the watch more and more towards a sculpture. Like if I'm going to use the word sculptural so much, there needs to be a conscious effort to go more and more in that direction. And so the, the next iteration I wanted to be more of a significant departure than oh, here's a. Here's another color and for it to feel like a creative evolution. And so what I did was launch the A1 optical, which really takes the idea that the A1 in many ways is about distortion. You know, the shape, the case, it kind of bends and distorts the light. And I wanted to take that distortive identity to the extreme. So what I did is I created a dial inspired by optical art. So, you know, the work of Bridget Riley Ferruccio Gard, where they basically take very basic geometric shapes and then combine them to create these very troopy optical illusions. And so what we did with the A1 optical is we essentially created these engraved dials where it's 50 slightly offset triangles that are engraved into a dial. Then each dial is sandblasted and hand polished to get this kind of like glean and shininess and liquidness to them. And as a result try to kind of collapse the boundaries between case dial hands. Surrender the notion of contrast to some extent and increasing, I guess, pursue the watch as a kind of object. So you know, you'll see that it has no indices, it has no logo. It, you know, lets go to a large extent of legibility and those are all conscious things of trying to really nudge it more and more towards a sculptural approach. And there'll be different versions of that in the future with kind of other releases. But in this case, I really wanted to embrace this idea of, like, one distortive liquid block of metal that kind of interacts with the world. And so that was the thought process that led to the A1 optical.
- [45:20]
B
You know, we're recording this before the A1 optical actually was released, so we don't know exactly how it was received. And I remember you showing me the images of it for the first time. And the wrist roll, it just. It's the wrist roll to end all wrist rolls. Like, I was thinking to myself, you know, if I were presenting this online, I would have such anxiety around the still images not conveying the. The nature of this watch. I would probably have to make every single image I showed a moving one because it is unbelievable. I mean, liquid electricity. What a way to describe it. It's like nothing else is. It is sculptural. It is a work of art. And it is incredible that you're able to do something so sufficiently different in terms of. Yeah, I suppose character. It's a word we've. Well, the word I've overused on this show already, but one that I just keep coming back to because it's what I see so much, is what I feel so much when I look at these watches. And I hope that it's done well, I can't imagine that it won't. I think the minute anybody sees that wrist roll, they're just going to go wild. And, you know, you're going to be in a lot of trouble because a lot of people are going to be walking into lampposts and crashing cars and whatnot when they're wearing this watch, because they're just going to be fixated on it. Have you thought about, like, lawsuits? You might want to get your sister involved.
- [46:45]
A
I should. She also specializes in defective products. That is literally her specialization, so. Oh, God.
- [46:52]
B
I didn't mean anything by that.
- [46:54]
A
It's probably. Probably the right person for the job.
- [46:57]
B
Amazing. So talk to us a little bit about 2026, or what you're allowed to say about 2026. At least what might be on the horizon.
- [47:04]
A
So I think in 2026. So there'll be another evolution of the A1, which. Which will be an even more fundamental departure from this, because I really believe. So I look at this form and I look at the A1, and I see a lot of the different influences that I put in. You know, the Brancusi sculpture, the. The kind of liquid liquidness to it, the pebble. And so I see all these different ways it can be twisted to bring out different elements of its personality. The optical is one of them. There's another one that I want to pursue that's a lot more about breaking the kind of balance and the softness of it. And so that would be almost like. Like a zag to a zig. But I'm also already working and have been working since June of last year on the A2. And with the A2, it's a very interesting process, because the first time around with something the A1, there's also, like, a directive line as to what you want to say with your brand. And for me, it was always sculptural watches with a starting point that's always outside of watchmaking and that I love because it's, in a way, feels very narrow, but at the same time, incredibly wide. Like, you can play that out, and you can flip that on its head, and you can reinterpret it forever, hopefully. And that's kind of the goal. And the fact that I don't exactly know where that goes longer term is part of the excitement. But you also analyze, okay, what worked? What did I do implicitly as part of my creative process that I now want to replicate and bake in? And what I realized with the A2 is it had to meet a certain list of criteria, and I couldn't just. The lame way to do this the same way. The lame way to do the A1 is, here's a green dial, here's a red dial, here's a pink dial. The lame way to do an A2 is, oh, here's the same kind of shape, but it's actually a rectangle this time. How exciting. What I thought was more exciting was, okay, what made the A1 the A1? And how can I apply that same conceptual logic to an A2 to end up with something that is, when you see it, surprising, a departure. But there's a conceptual link. So it's another kind of, like, creative leap. And in my mind, at the A1, what I want to kind of bring through to the A2 is it's sculptural first and foremost. Its origins are outside of watchmaking. It is incredibly pure and simple and essential. It's not different for its own sake. There's a certain, like, it feels like it always should have existed in a way, because of how pure it is. People have also seen it everywhere in a way. You know, I get a lot of pictures of kind of, like, pebbles or stones or people seeing kind of, like, the shape a Little bit everywhere. And I think that universality is important, and at the same time, it feels thoughtful yet effortless. And that. That's basically a lot of what I want to carry through to the A2. And so it's. It's a source of inspiration that's outside of watchmaking. It is inherently sculptural, and it has that same universality. It's a form or the idea of a form that I've now seen everywhere. I mean, I have a whole folder on my phone of the A2s that I now see out and about in the world. And the hope is that when it comes out, people will have the kind of same realization. But that's what I found exciting. And there's also some ways in which it will be fundamentally different to a 1. What I mean by that is a 1 is sculptural, but a 2 will be even more sculptural in the sense that it'll be a lot more three dimensional, and the actual base shape will be much simpler. So I'm almost trying to create a conversation between the two, where on first view, the A2 will feel simpler but actually be much more complex. So I like this idea of, like, if you're good at something, and it's interesting, but it's ultimately built on the idea that you're being creative. You can't just do a like 1.2 or you can't just iterate or like, slightly change your formula. You have to keep pushing. And that's what I find more exciting. Rather than just being like, cool. It's a slightly rounded triangle. Now let's make a slightly different version of that. Yeah, creation, rather iteration. But I guess from a conceptual starting point, and like, these are my rules. Starting point, which I realize means nothing because I've not given you any indication as to what it might actually be. But that's more fun.
- [51:28]
B
I think it's a great answer. I mean, it seems to me quite clear it's a collection united by principles and codes rather than straight line aesthetics to say, oh, that looks like an anoma. More like it feels like an anoma because it has this same language built through it, the same goals, but not necessarily the same result. And I think that that's a perfectly excellent way to build a brand, and one I think you probably have no choice but to pursue because it was an excellent first album. You know, you created it. You created this not as a brand, but it was a manifestation of an idea. I guess that's kind of the difference between you and Maybe someone like me, because you didn't sit down and think, oh, I want to start a brand. What does this brand look like? You almost had no choice but to pursue the vision that you had in your mind. And you're like, okay, this is. This is what I'm going to create. This has to exist. I'm going to hold this from my. From the depths of my creativity and put it on someone's wrist. It's difficult, though, when you have such success and such acclaim with an initial release to then do the same thing again in a. In a compacted timeframe. Now, okay, you didn't really say, I was working for 10 years on the A1, suggested that, like, okay, when you had the idea, the idea was there and then you immediately acted and you brought it to life. But there was a lot leading up to that. There's a lot of experience, a lot of observation, a lot of things digesting on a very meta level that manifested in that design. Have you felt any second album pressure, as it were, when it comes to the design of the A2, or has it just been a, you know, an eyes open, organic process that you very much enjoyed?
- [53:03]
A
I mean, there's definitely a bit of both. I think the thing is with these things, it's. I remember when I launched, and it's almost the day after the launch or the week after, what's next? What are you working on? So you will inevitably have that noise of, you know, what is the next creation? What is it going to be? And you'll inevitably want people who want you to replicate the same thing you've done, but slightly different. You want people who want something fundamentally different. You want people who want it quicker. So I think for me it was almost like, you're never going to make everyone happy. I actually actively hope that some people reject the A2 because they're like, that's different. I don't like that. And then that some people maybe are won over by the A2 in the way they weren't with the A1. And so in a way, I don't really feel the pressure I think I would feel would be if I was started second guessing, what is the right move? What should I do? What do people expect me to do? What would be the smart way to play this? Because then you can do that and it can not work. And so I think in a way, knowing that I have the way that I like to do things and I want to, this kind of directive, creative line I have is just the way I operate and the way, I think that's more important, and being true to that is more important. And I don't really feel any time pressure either, because I feel there's so much I want to say with the A1 that is more than just, here's a different color. There's so many, like, different iterations and identities to this personality that I want to play with. Of course, I don't want to do too many of that. Those I want to kind of stay disciplined, but there's so much I want to do. And I also know that it's better to do something slowly and doing right than do it quick, that I don't really feel the pressure for a 2. In a way, I'm sure I will. Close to the launch, everything will build up. But now I'm in the mindset of I know what I want it to be, I know what my standards are, and I know that it will take the time it will take. I mean, we've. We're in, what, when we're speaking now, July of 25. I started working on it in 3D a year ago, so.
- [55:11]
B
A year.
- [55:11]
A
We haven't even moved to kind of production feasibility because we're just wrestling with the shape. I think we're on, like, V12, that we've actually finally signed off, and we've had to rebuild the kind of case and design from scratch every single time due to the complexity of it. We wanted to make tweaks, but I. I've had no issue with that and no rush, because I'm like, it has to be right. And if once it's right, it'll be right forever. And if it's bad, it's bad forever or bad to my standards. And so, in a way, I think the second album thing is, is tricky because you're always. You're always going to disappoint. But I do kind of disappoint some people, rather. But I kind of subscribe to the school of, like, if they want you to do something, do the opposite of what they want you to do, or don't just give them what they want. I think it was Tarantino after Pulp Fiction did Jackie Brown, which is like, a fundamentally different film. And so I like the idea of, like, why would I regurgitate myself? Why would I just recreate a version of something? Just follow what you want to do. Ultimately, like, you don't start a watch brand because you want to make money. You start a watch brand because you want to say something, do something, and have a true voice. And I'd rather do my version of the A2, do it right, be able to proudly say why I've made it, than try to play what is the right game for the second one.
- [56:26]
B
Well, you know, you say that, but not everybody feels the same. And there are plenty of watch brands that do exist that in my opinion probably shouldn't because they have been started to try and cash in on a trend or to make something that's highly commercial or to tap into a gap in the market, whether that's a product or whether that's a way of doing business that people see as highly viable. So kudos to you for sticking to the original reason for you starting a brand and being true to yourself and true to the products as a result. How many pieces are you going to make? That's the question. Because there's going to be a lot of people that want them. I'm sure.
- [56:58]
A
It's a good question. I mean, this has been one where I've mainly been operating around, okay, what feels kind of like rule of thumb. So on the first series we did 250 pieces. On the slate, 300. For the optical, I'm doing a first run of 300 and then after that it'll be open ended, but probably on a kind of like batch basis. And then for other variants of the A1 and A2, not sure it really comes down to certain, I guess like production constraints as well. Because, for example, one of the versions of the A1 I'm working on as a kind of follow up to the optical involves like a high degree of, not to give too much away but like hand engraving and hand work on the case and dial and that creates, you know, one person that creates a. You know, I can only make, I think up to 10amonth of that one when it comes to life. But I like the idea that that's therefore constrained by the way it's made rather than artificial numbers. And so I think in my mind it'll always be I want to be able to satiate demand and give people what they want as long as it doesn't involve kind of compromising standards or vision. So to be honest, that's kind of been the approach so far and I think will probably be approached going forward.
- [58:20]
B
It sounds to me like we might be operating in a slightly different price point from the original models. Is that going to be the case?
- [58:27]
A
Not vastly, to be honest. Like, I think the future variants of the A1 that are kind of more traditional will be in the same range. Things like the engraved one is like much more niche projects, so it'll be more expensive. But I think the goal is very much to try and keep it all within a range where people feel like they're getting really good value. So I haven't really settled on like the, the kind of engraved one where it sits. But the hope is somewhere below 5 still for something that involves a lot of kind of hand, hand engraving work. But I think it's also the idea of offering value to people remains very important to me. It's not so a core pillar of the brand in the sense that I don't want to be labeled as look at how great value these watches are and that to be the first argument. I see that with some brands and it's great, but I think it should be one of the criteria as to why your brand is interesting that people feel like they're getting great value for money, but it shouldn't be the core one. But it's also what's made me uncomfortable at times with, you know, I've had a lot of clients being that I really want a gold, a one like a not insignificant number of people. I want a gold one, a platinum. And you know, I hate the idea of being like, great, it's now x, it's now 15,000, $20,000 because of gold. And I always like the idea that if I, if I do go higher in range and higher in price, there's a really strong justification and value add, whether that's through design or production, execution or like true arts and ship as to why does that jump? I think jumps in terms of like artificial scarcity or materials have always made me a little bit like I don't want the gold to bring the value. I want my choices and who I've brought on board to help with those choices bring the value. So I think value is always going to be something that's important to me. But that can mean different things, right?
- [60:22]
B
Yeah. I think that value should be a reason to not not buy a watch rather than a reason to buy one. And I think you're right that when it's placed in the center of a brand's philosophy, it can sometimes feel contrived like, well, we're making this watch because we want. Its central characteristic is that it's cheaper than you'd expect it to be for this kind of quality. And I don't think I would like people to sort of mention that as like, oh, that's one of the reasons why I bought it. It's just a reason why I decided not to not buy it sounds so stupid when I say it, but you know what I mean, People would say at the end, oh, and it's pretty good value, you know, like, you know, you get a lot for your money. You get a lot of thought, a lot of design, a lot of experience on the wrist. So I can see, I can see what you mean there. Yeah. If people haven't seen these watches, where can they see them? Where can they try them on their wrist? Do you have retailers or if not, will you have retailers? And regardless of both questions, will you be showing upcoming events?
- [61:24]
A
So don't have retailers? Currently, I have no plan in the interim to have retailers. And the reason for that is, you know, I'm still a fairly small scale early on in the journey and for me the value of knowing who my customers are, being able to have that relationship, being able to, you know, have the kind of depth of interaction that I have with them is very, very important to me. I think with time it'll be very important to have the right retailers and people that I trust to kind of like speak of the product and present the product in a way that I feel like aligns with the brand and I feel like comfortable with. Because I think ultimately a lot of people need to see these watches in person to pull the trigger. I don't think I would buy this watch without seeing it in person first. And I started the brand right and most people who bought it buy on, on, on trust and, and going out on a limb having never seen it. And I thank them for that. But I think it's very important for a lot of people to see them. So I think that will play a role in the future. But then what I try to do as a result, to try and counterbalance that is I try to get out there as much as possible to show people. You know, I always, always go to the fairs, watch some wonders at Geneva watch days I exhibited a watch some wonders last year exhibited at British watchmakers. But then even trying to reach people who might not go to those because they're very self selecting. So in May, for example, I spent the whole of May in Asia. I went to Singapore, Hong Kong and Tokyo, which are three of my biggest markets. If you basically take the US and those three places, it's like 70% of Anoma clients because I wanted to basically go and meet people, whether it's kind of existing clients, clients who are waiting to receive a watch, or people who were just fans of the brand because I wanted the ability to show them the watches, explain to them, the vision, where I think things are going and also to some extent, you know, get to know, who are these people? Who are the people who are actually buying into the Anoma brand? Why are they excited to buy it? What are the different kind of types of profiles? And I really like that approach because, you know, we went back to the thing earlier around that kind of hype and noise, and there's a. There's a lot of excitement around the brand, which is wonderful. But I still think there is no substitute for taking the time to sit down with someone one on one. And this is a lot of what I did on my trip is, yes, I did events in each city, but a lot of it was coffees, drinks, dinners, lunches, where you sit down for someone for two hours, three hours, and kind of taking them through that and converting people one by one who want to understand, who want to put the watch on the wrist, appreciate all the little details. And I think the value of that is huge. And I try to do that as much as possible when I'm in London with people based here. Try to do it on my trip. We'll try to do an equivalent in the US at some point this year. But I think getting out there and me getting out there and being part of explaining that vision is very important. Will that be scalable forever? No. Will I eventually need other people who I trust to pay part of that message? Yes. But I think early on at this stage, there's no real, real substitute for it.
- [64:43]
B
There you go. What can I say? That was one of the most engrossing chats I've had on the Real Time show in the show's history. No edits needed. Absolutely flawless delivery. Matteo, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing everything about Anoma and we look forward to seeing what's coming next. I know you'll be back on the show soon because I know Scarlett desperately wants to host an episode with you because you guys are quite close and it would be lovely to have you back. It would be lovely to hear what direction she takes it in. You told me off air that she'd probably be a lot more entertaining than me. Right.
- [65:15]
A
She once told me, I would hate to be in your mind because we've spent a lot of time together. So I think she also sees the, like, bizarre ways in which my mine sometimes operates. I think she'll have some weird questions and twists which will be fun to delve into.
- [65:32]
B
I can't wait for it. We'll set that up as soon as possible. And we can also communicate any questions any of our listeners may have for Matteo about Anoma or anything else for that matter. I think he's probably got a good chance of giving a good answer to any question you pose him. So if you want to get in touch, then please do. You can do that via our official Instagram handle, that's herealtime Show. You can email either me, Alon, or David at our email addresses. Either Rob, Alon or davidime Show. Scarlett is contactable via her Instagram handle. That's scarlintheshire. That's S C A R L I N T H E S H I R E and you can contact us via the contact form on the website www.therealtime.show. we will be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's innovators. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.
- [66:21]
A
It.