Loading summary
Transcript83 lines
- [00:00]
Rob Nudds
Foreign Watch Trans. And welcome to another edition of the Real Time Show. With me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds, our friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alon Ben Joseph. And our friendly marketeer, Theo de Turkheim of Micro Mill Spec, but of incredible reputation that stems far beyond his years. Hi Theo, nice to welcome to the studio.
- [00:23]
Theo de Turkheim
Hi guys. Thank you very much for having me. Really looking forward to this.
- [00:26]
Rob Nudds
Do you reckon you're gonna be able to live up to that introduction now?
- [00:29]
Theo de Turkheim
Probably not. I mean, I was born as a disappointment because my mum was expecting a girl and I came out as a boy. So I'm used to disappointing.
- [00:36]
Rob Nudds
Oh well, you're a very elegant man. I'm sure she wasn't too disappointed.
- [00:40]
Theo de Turkheim
No, I caught up eventually.
- [00:43]
Rob Nudds
Jolly good, jolly good. So for anyone that doesn't know Theo, he's been around for quite some time. I guess this is what, seven, eight years in the industry, is it?
- [00:51]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, overall I think I'm at eight now.
- [00:53]
Rob Nudds
Eight years, wow. Okay. And it's flown by, no doubt, because you've been a busy man. As I mentioned off air, I think I've had more emails from you in my inbox than anybody else over that eight year stretch. And it didn't begin with Micro mil spec because 8 years ago micro Mil Spec was a twinkle in the eyes of the founders. In fact, back then Theo was working for one of the biggest, most recognizable brands in the world. And we'll start there, if you don't mind. Theo, how did you find yourself working for iwc?
- [01:21]
Theo de Turkheim
Yes, I mean my background originally was in hospitality and after doing that for eight years and working 100 hour weeks and Betty having a holiday, I also said I need a change. So I left hospitality and you know, like most people in their mid-20s, I was trying to find something to rebound in and my brother came up to me who was the brand director of Longines at the time for the uk and he said to me, mate, why don't you try and watch it? You work less hours and get paid more. And I was like, he had me had more money and that's how hours. So he proposed that I should have a look at IWC because a friend of his at the time called Amy Turner was looking for a CRM manager or a PR manager and originally actually applied as a CRM manager. And after speaking to Amy a little bit, she was like, buddy, you are not at all a numericals data guy. You will absolutely fail this part. So she was like, how about you tweak your cv, reapply And I'll give you a go for the PR manager and get you through the rounds. So. And that's pretty much how it all really started. So I got my job pretty much being under qualified and based off a cool story about me being knocked out by a female boxer. And that's how I got the job, really.
- [02:33]
Rob Nudds
All right, so we haven't got all the hours in the world, but we've got enough time to hear this story about you getting knocked out by a female boxer. Come on, let's build a beam.
- [02:41]
Theo de Turkheim
So they said, tell us a story. That way you learned something. And I said, well, keep in mind I was being interviewed by two ladies at the time. And I said, well, the biggest story I've ever learned or the biggest experience I've ever had, that was never underestimate a lady. And she's like, what do you mean? I was like, well, I signed up to a boxing class in, I think it was around Vauxhall area. And a lot of the people in that boxing gym were semi pro amateur fighters type of thing. And at some point they got told, you know, that we got told to pair up with one another. And I could see these, like bricks of men staying away from this tiny girl. And I was like, okay, maybe they're trying to, you know, avoid hurting her or anything. So I very politely just said, you know, happy to spar with you, please, you know, don't worry, I'll go easy. And we go into the ring, they ring the bell, throws one punch, lights out. I have no idea what the hell is going on. I wake up with blood coming out of my nose and I found out she's actually an actual amateur fighter who's preparing for a tournament in two weeks time. So. So that was my first and last attempt in boxing. And based off that, how I got started up by wc.
- [03:44]
Rob Nudds
Oh, she must have been so disappointed. She needed a good warm up and instead she got you.
- [03:48]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah. Oh, mate, I swear to God, my, I've never felt so much pain in my nose. It destroyed me.
- [03:58]
Rob Nudds
Do you remember how she knocked you out? Was it a jab, a hook? I mean, I guess it wasn't an uppercut. She hit you in the nose.
- [04:04]
Theo de Turkheim
No, it was two punches, man. She jabbed and hooked me and the jabs pissed me, like, literally started pissing out blood. And I think the hook was just right on the button. And when I got pulled out, the guy, the head trainer of the boxing gym was, oh, mate, I thought you could box. I was like, this is my first freaking Class. What do you think? What were you expecting? Mike Tyson? Oh, not a chance, mate. Eric the eel in the boxing gym.
- [04:28]
Rob Nudds
Oh, my God, what a vision. I mean, that's a brilliant story. And did she go on to any great success or were you just cannon fodder, as it were?
- [04:37]
Theo de Turkheim
I was pretty much cannon fodder. But she also got a national title.
- [04:41]
Rob Nudds
Oh, wow.
- [04:42]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, yeah, she wasn't bad. I don't remember at all what her name was, probably because of the punch, and it was over 10 years ago, but at the time I remember because actually I'd been going to that gym for a third time even after the punch, and she brought back the title and hanging up in the gym for all the students around to see, you know, that the trainers were pretty decent.
- [05:02]
Rob Nudds
Well, good on you for not dying. She sounds dangerous.
- [05:05]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, well, I like to say, you know, the trainers did such a good job, you know, that the punch that she laid on me hopefully inspired her to win the title. So I like to feel like I played a small part in her success.
- [05:16]
Rob Nudds
Well, jolly good. I mean, obviously knocked you into the right frame of mind for tackling the watch industry. You're able to stand up to the punches that are the metaphorical punches that are swung at all of us on a daily basis. For many years of iwc, what was it like working for such a massive group brand? That must have been a baptism of fire to go from hospitality into a completely different field. You had to learn on your feet, I guess.
- [05:36]
Theo de Turkheim
Totally. I was very, very, very lucky, to be honest. I had two bosses that really accepted me for who I am. So I'm not someone who's very corporate. I really suck being behind a desk from 9 to 5 and when you try and format me too much, it's just like trying to cage an animal. So they've pretty much left me the freedom to do whatever I wanted so. So I could learn the job however I felt was best for me. So it wasn't that difficult as a transition because I pretty much had the freedom to do whatever the hell I want. And the team around me as well really ensured that I had every chance of succeeding. So I felt like I could make errors and, you know, the good part of my time at IWC is that I started just as PR and events manager and they actually added a section of my CV called Theo Special Projects. And those special projects was to encourage me to be as creative as possible. So, like, wherever I saw there was a weakness in the company, I could actually get, you know, take that on as a project. So I renovated for instance, all the back offices of Bond street, the IWC Bond street boutique, because it wasn't really well serviced for a hospitality point of view. So I brought that in from there. And then I saw that we were lacking in partnerships. So I was creating cool marketing campaigns with like Jack Savaretti and Portofino, which was part of the Portofino collection because his father built the church that's in the Portofino center at the Village. And so I pretty much had total freedom. And that was the fun part of it. It never felt like a job until those two bosses left. And then it felt like a job. So that's why I then quickly jumped suit as well.
- [07:12]
Rob Nudds
So I always got the impression from you that you're not a numbers guy, you're not a spreadsheets guy, you're not the sort of person that does well in that environment. I felt that because I'm exactly the same and I always felt like, oh, this is a guy that kind of does things from feeling like you're one of those touch players, you've got the kind of skills that you can't teach. I always say, like, it's a bit, it's maybe one of my worst traits, but I've always been a bit dismissive of like the back office processing side of things. I'm like, there are people that are good at that. That's not my forte. I'm good at the other stuff. I'm going to go do that and then let the people that know how to input that into the system take care of it. The problem with that of course is you are won't when you like that to make mistakes, to really have to learn through failure. So can you tell us a couple of times when maybe your creativity got the best of you or you made a well judged decision that turned out to be a disaster. Did anything from your IWC time linger in your mind as something you'd go back and change?
- [08:06]
Theo de Turkheim
Going back to having the two great managers. And it's not to say that I did, I didn't do any mistakes, but because they knew where my weaknesses were, they took away everything, you know, most things that I could screw up. So take for instance writing a press release. I'm someone who is quite heavily dyslexic. So trying to write, you know, 500 words on a piece of doc, you know, on a piece of paper and then sending out to the press and everything is a bit of a struggle for me. So I had my managers consistently Covering these, you know, these bases where they knew, you know, it was not only protecting me from screwing up and putting myself in the, in the fire line, but it was also to then, you know, allow me to focus on what I was good at. So regards to IWC in itself, it's not say I'm, I'm sure I did mistakes but because I had such a security and like, what's it called? Yeah, I'd say security safety net around me. If there was a mistake that I did, I probably didn't realize that I did it because I had these two managers covering me for it. And I forgot the second part of the question. Sorry. So that was if I did a, a mistake, what was the second part? Sorry.
- [09:12]
Rob Nudds
Would you go back and change anything? Is there anything that sort of lingers in your mind that you're like, oh God, I can't believe I did that?
- [09:17]
Theo de Turkheim
Not particularly. I think the only thing I wish I changed is to be a little bit more stubborn and courageous. In my early years I've realized at the end of the day when you're in the watch industry as a whole and you're working with people around you, confidence goes a long way. And I think there was projects that I could have pushed more that, you know, for instance I had this project I really wanted to get across the line which was in France. We have this sailing race that goes around the world called the Vende Globe. And with IWC being a sustainable company or quite sustainable at the time because they did a sustainability report they would release every two years, my whole marketing campaign was to sponsor this British sailor who had created a hydrogen powered engine which he was going to use to sell around the world. And my goal was to get those hydrogen engines implemented into our HQ so that in the summer whilst we're producing a huge amount of power with our solar panels, because we had loads of solar panels across the manufacturer center, we could store that energy and then reissue it in the wintertime. And I felt there's a massive opportunity to really push IWC forward from a sustainability point of view. But unfortunately I wasn't able to, you know, get it across the line because I think I had too many doubts in my mind as to whether this was viable or not. But I think it's something that I should have been more courageous of and I should have been more daring and it's something that I now I really implement at micro mil spec. If I really believe in something, I go hard in until I really make sure I get the project across the line.
- [10:48]
Alon Ben Joseph
Probably the most famous Milspec watches are the pilot watches by audc from the 1930s. Starting with the epic pilot watches and going into the big pilot and then Mark 10. I only had Micro Mil spec on my radar about a year ago. And I love mil spec watches. I love this name. I saw designs of watches, it blew my mind. Who doesn't love Norwegians? So how can an English chap with a French name go from a brand that produces good mil spec watches to this EPIN brand?
- [11:38]
Theo de Turkheim
I mean originally, to be honest as well, when I left iwc, I left IWC swearing to myself I would stay out of watches and never go back in because it didn't end on a pleasant feeling for me. So suddenly my vision of the watch industry didn't disgust me, but I was just like, okay, I'm done. I'm going to focus on my real estate business. That's going to be my bread and butter going forward. And I think my brother once again, the one who got me the job at iwc, knew that the creative side would start working inside my brain a little bit and realized that I'm getting a little bit bored. And because he was the buyer at Mr. Porter, he was bringing on Micro Mil Spec as one of the brands. So he reached out to me and said, look mate, they have, we're bringing them live on Mr. Porter. They're looking just for a one of one mission from APR support. Would you like to give it a go? I said, fine, I'll do it a go, but I want to speak to Henrik the CEO first so that I get a feeling of what it's like and then let's see how we, you know, how we can work together. And that's pretty much how it all kick started. I got a really good phone call from Henrik. He was absolutely lovely to me and has been since day one. And as soon as I finished that project in my mind I was like, okay, cool. It was fun, you know, did a good job, go back to real estate. And then Henrik called me again and said, well look you, you did a good job. I enjoyed working with you. Would you consider coming on just as a PR agency? And I was like, oh sure, I'll do that for a year, you know, see what happens. And then come to, you know, come. I think it was January, February this year. He was like, well look, I would like you to be my right hand man. Would you like to come on board as a cmo? And I was like, well, I'm having a great time. So I Don't really feel like this is a job. I get paid to just do fun things and being creative. And I was like, yeah, sure, why not? And that's how we ended up where we are now going from a big.
- [13:33]
Alon Ben Joseph
Group, Richemont owning iwc, to a micro brand, although I don't dare to call them Microsoft, but I guess it's day and night for you and you are blossoming. Begs the question, why is the micro in that brand name?
- [13:50]
Theo de Turkheim
The reason why the company is called what it's called, it's called Micro because we do small quantity of watches for various militaries across the world. Then you got Mills Military and now the specs for specifications. So it really. Those three words really goes in line as well. Our logo, which with our sorry slogan, which is Custom professional watches. Because the whole idea is that no matter the quantity, we're able to create a specific watch for a specific purpose, for a specific division. That's where the name Micro Mil Spec comes from.
- [14:21]
Alon Ben Joseph
While visiting you guys at Geneva watch days last year, I was blown away by the quality, the team, the passion, the cool vibes, but also all the small quantities you actually make for military unit squadrons. Can you maybe elaborate a bit on that?
- [14:43]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, I mean, I'll say I'll spit into two parts. I think. One, what's cool about the team that you met is that we're really. I kind of see us as in between us, like the TV show in the uk. We're not specifically cool, but we're not losers. We're kind of somewhere in between. And I think the cool thing about our team, though, is that no one comes from watches. So Henrik doesn't really come from watches. He works in finance before. Our CEO is a CGI specialist for TV shows and he's won like numerous awards. So a lot of the. A lot of the really cool content we're able to do on our social media comes from Alex, who is a CGI expert. We've got a young designer of 25 who can do these incredible watch drawings, which before he joined us, he'd never drawn a watch before. And I think I calculated like the average age of the team is like 29 or 30. So we're kind of like a insecure. I always say to my team that we're an insecure little, little brand that's looking to find its confidence and we'll get there with time and, you know, over time and going back to, you know, the specifications and customizations we can do with watches, I mean, we could take the metal graph as a good example, because the male graph is the watch that we designed for the Norwegian special forces. And the story around that is we sent them the field testing unit. They tried it on for six months, got some feedback as to how the watch was worn, and little by little we started to work on the design that was specific to that unit or squadron. So we had like the bezel with little grooves inside. So now that they could turn it and twist it with their gloves on. You had the GMT hand because it reminded them of what time it is at home. You had the chronograph, obviously, for the team to be on the same time and synchronized. It was in titanium because they felt steel was too heavy and they wanted something a little lighter. They wanted also a stronger movement, which was legion pere. So instead of using the SW200, which is what we have in most of our watches, we put in a legend period 121 and. Yeah, and that's. And also it was a lefty because it was to avoid having friction with the crown on the wrist. So we're really able to do proper customizations based off what's the client is looking for, whether it's, you know, a military squadron or a celebrity like Erling Haaland who did a watch with us.
- [16:58]
Rob Nudds
So that Haaland watch, that was a one off, right?
- [17:01]
Theo de Turkheim
It was a one of one he really wanted before signing to Manchester City, seeing as he's a Norwegian, he wanted to be able to wear a Norwegian brand on his wrist. And the problem is once he signed that City, he technically signed with Breitling. So he wanted to make sure he got the watch before he had all these contracts signed them across the line.
- [17:21]
Rob Nudds
Very nice. If I remember rightly, then, it has a little graphic of him in his meditative pose, which is like his. His old goal celebration, at least. I don't know if he still does it at City. But that was in one of the sub dials, right?
- [17:31]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, exactly. It's him in his little bit of position, which was quite fun. Especially the dial in itself was the first football he ever kicked when he was three years old. So his father actually kept that ball. We scanned it and we then imprinted it onto the dial.
- [17:46]
Rob Nudds
Oh, no way. How interesting. Does his dad have one? His dad was a footballer as well, wasn't he?
- [17:50]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, his dad was a footballer at Manchester City as well. And no, he does not have one, unfortunately. It was just for. Just for Mr. Harland himself. Junior.
- [17:58]
Rob Nudds
All right, okay, Very good. Well, I suppose there's Some scope to. To make one for Alf. What's his name? Alf. Alf Ingerhaland.
- [18:05]
Theo de Turkheim
Was it very good football knowledge? Yes, that.
- [18:07]
Rob Nudds
Is it good? Well, yeah, I'm sure he had a clash with Roy Keane at some point, so there's probably some blood or skin off one of the Keen's boots that we could harvest to make a dial from for him, just to remind him of that encounter. Anyway, talking about the operational side of the brand, because there's these two distinct parts, there's the bit that works with military contractors to make special pieces for them, and then the public face inside. How long has the brand actually existed? Did it initially exist to provide watches specifically for the military? And now what is the split of those operations? Is it 5050 or is it more one direction than the other?
- [18:44]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, I mean, so the company's been around for five years and the core business was originally for the private market, so for the. For the military. And that's been the bread and butter of the company for the past four years. And it was last year when the Mr. Porter opportunity came along that the kind of strategy of Micro Milspec changed a little bit. So they saw there's an opportunity for, let's say, let's take the Hercules watch as an example. We only did 15 units for the Hercules pilots of Norway, and the conversations we had with them is, look, we'll design this watch for you, but to make it viable for us to keep it at an affordable price, we're also going to do a variation of this watch to the public. So by doing that, we can continue doing these customization projects with the military, but if they're in small enough numbers, we then can try and sell it to the public, like with the Voyager as well. I think. I can't remember the exact number we had to do for the Swedish Marines, but it must have been below 30. And then we ended up releasing 25 of those models with a slight change available to the public. So. And currently today, where we're at is a relatively 50, 50 split. So to get to where we are now in 12 months time, where 50% of our sales comes from the public, it shows that not only does the public trust us, but I think we're on to something good at the moment and we need to continue.
- [20:05]
Rob Nudds
I mean, you're making an exceptional quality product and we'll come back to that in a moment in regards to the very attractive pricing thereof. But one thing that's interesting is that although the research and development that goes into new models for Military factions that then eventually are released to the general public are seen. A huge amount of what you do is not seen. Right. So there's all these different versions of watches that are just under the radar. A bit like Bremont used to do. When Bremont would work with different squadrons, you'd find these things popping up every so often on Chrono 24 or in pre owned marketplaces and they'd blow your mind because it's like a, it's like a dragon's egg or something special that you've never seen before. Like, oh my God, I need to get one of those because what the hell is that? Is there a database anywhere where people can see all the projects that you've created or are they completely secret and removed from public view?
- [20:54]
Theo de Turkheim
Most of them are secret and removed from public view. Out of respect for the governments that hire us for those projects, we have set up intentionally a Instagram page called Micro Millspece Owners and that is for the people who are happy to share their products and wristwatches that they've customized. Then they can submit their photo to that Instagram and then eventually we post it up there so that everyone can see the different variations of products that is going about. But that's the only place you'll be able to see it is on the Micro Milestoners page.
- [21:27]
Rob Nudds
You know, it's an interesting way to go about a business to start as customizers because a lot of existing brands, especially in the last five or 10 years, have felt this impetus to start customizing or personally configurating as they prefer to say sometimes their watches for clients because they want to scrape every possible sale. They think if they give the client some agency in the design, they're more likely to buy. It's a difficult line to walk when you're an existing brand that has previously controlled your narrative from A to Z. But it's in this case, you were custom build specialists working with very specific units that required very specific things from their watches. And now you are taking all of what you've learned and putting that into a product that the general public can buy. And what a product at that price point, the Milgraph in particular, around three and a half thousand euros. I'm sorry, I don't know the exact number at the moment, but it's that ballpark is an incredible watch considering its specs. Just give us like the, the top line specs of this watch, including, you know, case materials, movement and whatnot. You've touched on it before, but just give it give us the rundown again?
- [22:34]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, absolutely. It's a grade 5 titanium case. 42. 42 millimeters. In terms of size, it's a lefty, so crowns on the opposite side with a reverse chronograph. It has a les jeux pirre121 movement. It has a GMT hand and I think that is everything that I've mentioned inside of it. Oh, no. You've also got the bezel that has little grooves inside of it which allows you to twist the bezel and in one direction when you have your gloves still on.
- [23:04]
Rob Nudds
It is an incredible piece. And what about the esthetics of that piece? How did the design come about? Did you do that all in house or did you work with anybody else in the industry?
- [23:12]
Theo de Turkheim
So technically we worked with someone that I can't name his name, but we worked with one person externally and if not, most of the other stuff was done internally by our own in house designer. We try to control everything ourselves. So it's only if we have a doubt on a couple of things, we'll look for advice from other people within the industry who have been very open and receptive to helping us. But if not, most things are done internally within our own team.
- [23:38]
Rob Nudds
So what's the team working on right now that we can expect? Will we see any more new models coming or variations of existing pieces? Because I know we've seen some interesting specials with the Milgraph already. So tell us first what's coming and secondly, talk to us about those special edition milgraphs.
- [23:53]
Theo de Turkheim
Yeah, 100%. I think our core focus is creating a really good product at an affordable price. So I think you can expect around Geneva watch days a pilot collection that will be coming out with a couple of different variations of complications which will never be, you know, above a 3,500 or €4,000 price. And it's really the direction that we're trying to go in is to make sure that you have a great movement with a well built watch with a complication, always at a relatively affordable price. So hopefully that's what's gotten us to the dance so far. And, you know, you can see that based off the reception of the sabotage watch that we did with James Thompson, aka Black Badger, where we did 75 additions of this quite, you know, fun watch, which has a white dial, some orange in it as well, comes on an orange strap, still has that, that titanium grade 5 case that, you know, reminds you that it is a variation of the Milgraph. And you know, that watch in itself, I think in two weeks we sold, or three weeks now we've already sold 40 models. So it's, it's been going really, really well for us.
- [25:05]
Rob Nudds
Well, that doesn't surprise me that it's flying. I mean, the price itself is incredible. Absolutely incredible. I remember I knew about this watch in the developmental process. So I, I know the one person who we can't name, bit of a shame we can't name him, but I know who we're talking about and I knew that this thing was coming, but then to see it in hand after all those months, or, well, I guess it was over a year in terms of like total development, to see it in hand, I could not believe what I was holding. And I guessed that the price, no word of a lie. I think you were there actually in Geneva. I guessed that the price would be around 7,000. Yes, I was way, way off. I put it twice as expensive as it actually is. And that's, that's a big miss because, I mean, that's speaks volumes to what you get for your money there. If you're looking for bang for buck for a technical watch that will last you for the rest of your life, then this is a great candidate question, though. You can't have big margins because there's quality in that watch from top to bottom. Not just the case, not just the way the dial is made, like the multi component dial and then the beautiful machining on the bezel. But movement, Le Joupire chronographs, they don't come hugely cheap. I mean, I know the build cost of that watch means that you can't be looking at much more than even max 60% markup on the physical cost of the thing. So does that preclude the possibility of retailers or do you have a strategy for that as well?
- [26:24]
Theo de Turkheim
No, we have a strategy for that with the retailers as well. I mean, at the end of the day, Henrik's vision for the brand is that he saw there was a gap within the market between a £1,500, or let's, if we want to speak in euros, like a €1,650 watch, up to a 3,500. And a lot of the conversations that him and I have had across the last 12 months is the biggest takeaway I like to, you know, use as an example is eight years ago, a reverso, you know, a good, a good reverso from Jar Lud, you could probably get it for about eight, eight and a half grand. And that exact same watch today, I think the last time I checked, it was probably around 11, 12 or even £13,000. And it's still the same movement, it's still the same watch. It's just, it's gone up 5k in price. And I think that's kind of the advantage that we have over all these other brands that are suffering is that we're very much aware of the economical climates that everyone's going through at the moment. And that's why we're doing everything we can to create a product that even if it eats away a little bit at our margins, that still remains affordable. And the retailers that we work with, we, you know, the whole purpose of working with them is, number one, to have a point, a sale where people can come and physically see the watch and also to then start activating that market with events and, you know, trying to look after the customer. Because it's something also I very much remember from my time in hmo, it was the quantity that they were churning out clients and customers in and out of their boutique. It was very much a numbers game. And because I come from hospitality, my thought process is always the customer has to be king in every single decision making process. So that's why, you know, we've set up the way that we have. With that in mind, can you reveal.
- [28:13]
Rob Nudds
To us the volumes that we're talking here? How many pieces that you sell at the moment to the public and how many you'd like to sell? Or is that confidential?
- [28:20]
Theo de Turkheim
No, I mean, we produce roughly around 1500 watches a year.
- [28:25]
Rob Nudds
Okay, that was nice, clean, simple answer. Thank you very much. That seemed total. Including your military contracts, or is that the public exclusively?
- [28:32]
Theo de Turkheim
No, that's in total. So, I mean, as it's about a 50, 50 split in terms of revenue, I mean, it's going to fall somewhere between 6 to 7, 800 for one side and 6 to 700, 800 on the other. The exact number I'm not exactly aware of, but that's the number that you'll be dancing around.
- [28:51]
Rob Nudds
Okay, well, it's a good enough ballpark. It's very illustrative, at least. Do you have a goal, like a max goal of what you're trying to reach with the team being roughly the same size as it is now, or are you at that sustainable level?
- [29:03]
Theo de Turkheim
I think we're still in a transitional year. You know, Rome was a building in a day. And the conversations that we have with Henrik is number one, to move the company from being a made to order business to actually a stock business. And that's something that we're hoping to be able to initiate by, in the next 12 months. So because of that, obviously the cost and investment needed to get, be able to get to that point is going to be quite substantial. So I think we're probably going to increase our team at the battle of this year early next year, and it'll be probably someone based out of Switzerland or in France. I want someone to really help, you know, do the traveling. Just currently I'm, I'm, I'm the one hopping on a plane everywhere and if I continue at this rate, my partner is going to leave me. So I'm trying to find someone who can help piggyback off that and, you know, help support us on that side and make sure that I'm not the only creative person in the office because there's some point or another, I will stagnate. So I need someone else who can add that little injection of fun into the company.
- [30:00]
Rob Nudds
Oh, well, if you need any help, let me know. You know I love to fly and I'm a big fan of Norway. Moving on from that, by the way, you got my email address. You know where to send the job application. You mentioned gaps in the market, right? You identified a price point gap between €1,650 and €3,500. I do not contest that that gap exists. I agree that it does exist. But my question to you is somewhat more philosophical. Gaps will always open up in different parts of the industry as it moves and shifts and certain brands try and accelerate from their traditional price point to something new and others will be left scrabbling to fill those voids. We've seen it happen with some of the mainstream brands. We've seen, for example, Rolex go out of touch for the, the carbon working man. And we've seen Omega try and follow suit and opening up a door for Longines to sort of slide into our Omega used to be and Hamilton to slide in, went to where Longines used to be, et cetera, et cetera. My question is, does a gap always need to be filled? Is there not a moment in an industry where certain price points are doing well and certain price points are doing badly for whatever reason? And there are plenty of good reasons for both of those things. And case in point, right now we seem to be in a moment where everybody that's selling watches for tens of thousands, so not even just five figures, not just into the teens, I mean like 20,000 plus maybe they're doing okay. Anybody under a thousand also seems to be doing okay. There seems to be Like a moment there for these two extreme ends of the industry, the ultra accessible and the ultra moneyed, to have a lot of success. But that middle bracket there, the more traditional luxury watch market from say 1500 to 6000 or maybe 1500 all the way up to 10, is a bit of a dogfight. Like there's a lot of brands trying to take away that space that has quite rightly emerged. You filled it, you're having success, your volume is low, relatively speaking, your quality is high, your bang for buck is through the roof. I get why you're doing well, but what do you think about that as a concept? Do you think that gaps always need to be filled or do you think sometimes gaps vacate for a reason?
- [32:10]
Theo de Turkheim
No, I think, I think at the end of the day, where we, where we are at today, for me, the reason why that we're seeing so many brands suffering a little bit within the watch industry is I think the customer has been taken for granted for a very, very, very long time. And that gap of that 1500 to, you know, three, three and a half grand is you, you think less when you're making a purchase around that amount compared to anything above that. You know, you start thinking about how much you make a month and whether or not you can fit that in. So I think with regards to filling the gap, I think, yes, I think it's essential to, you know, see an opportunity and go for it. With regards to competition, yes, it's a very highly competitive market within that price point. But I think where we are very lucky is that, number one, I know most brands say this, but really, I cannot accentuate enough how, how much we put the customer at the center of our decision making process. From customization of the monogram, where they can customize, you know, certain elements of that watch and give them the freedom to be able to do it. Like putting a logo or changing the name of the watch or and then putting an engraving on the back. You know, we're bringing in a little bit of the fun and putting the client into the driver's seat, you know, unlike most other brands. And on top of that, where I, you know, we like to say we put the customer at the center of it is. I travel a lot and I regularly email everyone who is either on a waiting list or has either purchased a watch or, or, you know, who, you know, might have come and seen us at the watch hour and isn't sure. I email every single one of these people if I'm in a location nearby them and I invite Them out for a meal and they get to have time with the CMO of a watch brand and very readily accessible. And at the end of day it's very rare that with a watch brand that you can have so much interactions with a CEO and a CMO and you know, even to take the UK as a market, I just did hands on horology. Every single one of those people who, you know, put their names onto that, onto my list, I'm organizing a pub, drinks at the end of the year, all on me. No one has to buy a watch or anything, they just turn up. I'll bring some watches of what we released that year for them to have a play around and they get to have a moment with a brand where they can feel, you know, a little bit special because they have access to the watches where some of them would have been sold out and they can take some photos, they can ask questions of what know we might be releasing next year, which I'll probably show them. You know, there'll be very much an open and accessibility which you know, I can do it for the moment which great. Hopefully I can always continue doing that because I think it really works. But I really want to make sure that when someone buys a micro mil spec watch, they feel that they're part of a community and they're part of an environment that is always striving to do something and always has something going on.
- [35:05]
Alon Ben Joseph
I would love to run down the collection with you Tio, but before we do so, I am a big fan of scandi design. Would you personally label micros mil specs design DNA as scandi design?
- [35:25]
Theo de Turkheim
Not really. I mean the fun thing is that when we launched the Milgrass I had half the people who called it an IWC Porsche design from the 1980s and the other half that called it a vacheron overseas Everest. So every time our watches have been compared to someone, it's never been compared to a Scandi brand, it's always been compared to a Richemont brand which I like to think, you know, that's a very good compliment. And so therefore I think going back to the customization, our job is to kind of be a little bit like a lizard and change the color of our skin based off what the opportunity is and what designs we need to do. So if we working with the Swedish Marine Corps then we'll probably do a very scandi design watch for them them. But if we're working with the Australians and they want a kangaroo and something, I have no idea what we're in and yeah, sure mate, but we'll get they all over that.
- [36:18]
Alon Ben Joseph
So you said you take it as a compliment. Many brands get offended if newly launched products get compared to other brands. You basically don't. Did I understand that correctly?
- [36:30]
Theo de Turkheim
100 number one for two reasons. Number one, as long as you're talking about me then fantastic, because it means that we've done something right. And I think no matter what anyway, there's so many watches that have been designed over the last 100 or you know, 160 or 70 years. Everyone is always going to find something to compare it to. No matter what you launch, if you look hard enough, long enough, you know, and you don't get out of your house enough, you'll find a comparison somewhere with another brand, with another watch. So for me it's really not a bother if, you know. And to be compared to Vash1 IWC is the biggest compliment I can get interesting.
- [37:08]
Alon Ben Joseph
And it's actually very refreshing. So thank you for that. Milgraf is fantastic. Congrats. I love the collab with Rob's mate, Black Badger. Walk us through that project, please. Project Sabotage.
- [37:23]
Theo de Turkheim
So I'll leave the product design and all of that stuff to James and Henrik. At the end of the day we, you know, we wanted to do a variation of the mill graph number one because we were out of milgraphs to sell. You know, we only did, I think it was 50 productions a year and we had over 10, 52 names on out on our waiting list. So we thought to ourselves, well, we need to find a way to bring this down because we're kind of stuck with the production limit with the mill graph. And that's where Project Sabotage came along. So it was James who came up with the idea of like a Luke Skywalker Star wars dial. Hence why, you know, orange and white. And then from my perspective, the marketing campaign, I don't know why, but I had a, an idea that popped into my head of kind of taking, bringing to light real comments that were used by CEOs and creating a little universe around that. So you know, you'll see a lot of pirate flags in our marketing campaign because that's a little weight to the CEO of Rolex who said all these little micro independent watch brands who install themselves around the palettes, Flare watch, the wonders are pirates. So that's why you've got, you know, everything has a, has a purpose within that. And that's why the bad guy in our, in our world that we've created is called the Crowns Guard. Because It's a. And he's. He has kind of like a similar crown to Rolex on the back of it. We originally actually came up with a guy called Lord Lufts who was a little bit naughty to take the piss out of Nutritus. And we wanted to use comments, you know, of from the CEO of Patek saying, you know, everyone who criticizes the QP2 is people who can't afford it. So we really wanted to create this like obnoxious, like really obese, fat cartoon character who was completely disconnected from reality and, you know, create a little world around that. So. But then we pivoted and decided to create a character called the Grand Psycho to do a little bit of wink at Grand Seiko. Even though I love Grand Seiko, so I. I can't criticize them at all. It's just the name works really well.
- [39:26]
Alon Ben Joseph
The Milgraph is hands down my favorite. And I want to hear later on what Rob's favorite Mil Spec Micro Milspec watch is. What really spoke to me was also the original field testing unit that retails at 1595.
- [39:43]
Theo de Turkheim
Yes, 100%. The field testing unit is actually the very first watch that we produced. It's all in its name. Field testing unit. It's a watch that's supposed to be tested in the field. And it was originally a prototype watch. So if someone wanted to start a project with us, we would send that watch off, they would try it on for six months and then we'll get the watch back or analyze how the watch was worn. And also we'll get feedback from the person wearing the watch. What we needed a change. So for instance, if it's too heavy, move to titanium. If he broke the movement, find something better. Oh, he wants a chrono. Oh, he wants, you know, a lefty and blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. And that's where the whole story came from, you know, with the field testing unit. And it was only when we were working with Mr. Porter that the personal shoppers were like, we love that watch. That has to be on our website. And then we were like, oh, well, wonderful. We've kind of stumbled onto something that is really successful. And the field testing unit, I think is now our second best selling watch within the collection. So you have a good eye on picking your favorites because the Milgraph being our best. And then the field testing Unit, you're on to our two best sellers.
- [40:58]
Rob Nudds
To answer your curiosity along, the Milgraph is by far and away my favorite. I mean, I am a chronograph. Kind of guy. As you know, it's my favorite complication and I just can't get past how brilliantly this has been done. It's just a great concept. It's extremely legible. The dial is characterful. It's. It's brilliant to have struck that balance where you've got an almost joyous use of curved markers and, and indicators without it seeming whimsical in any way. But also highly, highly legible. Great on the wrist. The left hand crown is, is brilliant. I enjoy a left hand crown because I like to kayak a lot and having a crown on the left hand side is ideal for that because you have a little bit additional wrist flexion. So that's my number one. I also like the field testing unit. I think it's very clean, very crisp. I love them on the rubber straps. I think that that's how the watches look best. But then I'm also a fan of rubber straps in general. Not just rubber like items. A phone. Just to be clear.
- [42:05]
Theo de Turkheim
I always thought you're a bit kinky, Rob.
- [42:07]
Rob Nudds
I am a bit kinky, but it's too warm for the rubber. And moving on swiftly. You're a creative guy, we know that. We can see that in your campaigns. We can see that in the way that you approach the industry and where your focus lies on what needs to be changed to provide a better customer experience, more holistic delivery of a brand to the end consumer. But have you ever designed a watch? Have you really made changes to watch designs that have been evolving around you in the past? And if not, or maybe as well as would you like to do that in the future? And do you have some ideas of what you think would be a great commercial product?
- [42:48]
Theo de Turkheim
So I have no idea how to design a watch, but how it will work with Henrik and myself is. For instance, we kind of got our 2027 collection sorted. And all I said to him is I want a specific material that I would like to use for that collection being forged carbon. And I said, well, look, go off and start working on design. I kind of know what I have inside my head. I don't know how to communicate it. And then he'll come back to me showing me various different designs as to. Is this what I meant? And then little by little, we'll start refining the details as to what direction we're going to go in and even for, you know, next year. Well, actually, no. One of the crazy ideas that I had was originally I wanted to create a floating watch for the kite surfing community because I'm a kite surfer myself and I often go kite surfing with, with a watch, but I've never actually had a watch that was built for purpose and fun. Fact is, most pro kite surfers, when they compete, compete with a watch on because they have 10 minutes out in the water and they turn on the chronograph and they actually use the chrono to see how much time they have to compete in their heat to do as many moves as possible and jump as high as possible in the air. So my goal originally was to do a floating watch for the kite surfer community. And we started the same thing, working on the design a little bit, launch R and D to see how this could all come together. And, and we kind of, you know, take board back and forth, you know, based off our kite surf wing or, you know, the actual kite itself looks, you know, that needs to be the sort of start of the watch. So I can't draw, but I'll have ideas to then communicate to the design team as to what I kind of, I'm trying to get to.
- [44:24]
Rob Nudds
I mean, this is interesting, it's of course very niche, but then really all of the greatest and most interesting complications are. And that's kind of the point of watchmaking itself is kind of esoteric and unnecessary, but certainly very interesting. I've never seen a kite surfing watch before. We've had regatta timers for people tacking back and forth before the start of a race and using their watches to indicate exactly when they should go. What about a 10 minute chronograph display? Either a chronograph central minute hand that could be geared to go around the dial once every 10 minutes or the sub dial you have at 6 on the, on the mill graph geared up to go around the sub dial once in 10 minutes. Like a specific complication for that actual use. What about that?
- [45:08]
Theo de Turkheim
That was the exact communication I had with our watchmaker, which I wish I filmed his face when I told him. I was like, I want a chronograph, but a slow one. And he was like, well, how slow? I was like, it's going to take 10 minutes to get around. And he was like, what the are you on about? No, no, no, don't worry, I'm on to something here. I trust me. You know, we call kite surfing the Gulf of the Sea because when you get into the sports you need 10 grand or 15 grand to buy all the equipment if you're going to buy it new. And those kite surfers love kiting with a watch. So I know that there is a. There, there's a niche that I can tap into that, you know, thankfully, there's probably not that many kite surfers in Switzerland because even though you had the lakes, it's not ideal to surf on a lake. So I kind of hope that this is a niche that I can attack that in the future, you know, which maybe we are, maybe we're not, and maybe you might something, you might see something in the next 12 months around this. But. But yeah, that's the whole reason behind it.
- [46:11]
Rob Nudds
I mean, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, it can start off as a kite surfing watch. It can become something else. It'd be much easier to time your boiled eggs with a chronograph hand that goes around the dial once every 10 minutes than once every 30. That would be brilliantly useful. And I mean, the Rolex Explorer 2 started out as a spelunking watch. And you don't meet spelunkers on the street corner very often, do you? So, I mean, if you make a watch for a particular community, you'll be adopted by other people thereafter. I'm sure the 10 minute thing could be really useful for loads of people and it can be done. Your watchmaker is probably right to respond in the, how should we say, expletive laden way that they did. But at the same time, it's not the most complicated thing to ask. Can you just get this chronograph to run to. Okay. It's not straightforward as in, like you can't just click your fingers and do it in a day. But the development is pretty easy.
- [46:59]
Theo de Turkheim
No, 100%. And it's kind of the direction that we want to bring the brand going forward is not just pivot away slightly from the military, but it's to really create, you know, when we say custom professional watches, it's not just for the military, but it's for people who are professionals in their own field. So we're exploring, you know, free climbing, we're looking at kite surfing, maybe motocross. And we kind of want to create this Red Bull, you know, the watch industry type of branding, which is that we have all these daredevil types of ambassadors who are experts within their field, and they have a watch that has been specifically built for a purpose, for their own domain.
- [47:37]
Rob Nudds
You know what I've always wanted? I've never said this on air before, but I'm going to send you a proposal for a special edition after this episode anyway. And it's kind of a rudimentary version of what I'M about to describe to you. But as I mentioned, I like kayaking. And I also spend a lot of time walking in hills like elevated areas. And one of the few things you have to watch out for are storms coming in. And so I always gravitate towards chronographs with telemetres on the bezel rather than tachymeters or pulseometers or anything like that. I love a telomere. I love being able to tell how far away the center of a storm is from where I am. And I also like chronographs. Now, one of the problems with a chronograph from a sporting perspective is you tend to start it when you start whatever endeavor you are endeavoring to complete. So if you're about to go on a big hike, you might start the chronograph at the start to time your total journey, which would render the telometer generally useless when the storms start rolling in because you'd have to stop the chronograph to get it back to zero. So the first like workaround I thought of was having a rotatable telemeter bezel that you could line up with the running chronograph seconds without having to stop the chronograph as soon as you saw the lightning. But then what I would really, really, really love more than anything would be a sub dial on the dial that was a telemeter sub dial, a secondary seconds hand that could be started while the initial chronograph was running by a different pusher, like a pusher at 10 o' clock or something. So when you see the flash of lightning without having to stop the chronograph, which preferably would be a screw down pusher so you wouldn't be able to stop it by accident, you press the telomere chrono and you get like a distance readout on the 9 o' clock subdial that's specifically reserved for that. So once you've succeeded in turning your watchmaker's hair white with your kite surfing idea, ensure that it will all drop out when you hand them that one. Please.
- [49:21]
Theo de Turkheim
With pleasure. You know, at the end of the day, we're a custom professional watch company, Rob, so if you need a specific watch, I'm sure we can make it happen.
- [49:30]
Rob Nudds
See, that is what I like to hear. A man that's willing to go above and beyond to satisfy the consumer. Look, Theo, we could probably talk for another hour on the nuances of micromill spec because it's an incredibly interesting brand, one that's doing things that others aren't doing and doing them in an accessible way, which is just a brilliant thing for the watch community. But I'm going to let you go now because we have talked very fluidly, very quickly, very easily, for over 50 minutes and it felt like five. So before we get out of hand, I will thank you for your time on the show and hope that you will come back in the future and at least very. At the very least, come and see us in Geneva, because we'll be there as an official media partner of Geneva Watch Days Recording. And let's do round two in person. How does that sound, mate?
- [50:13]
Theo de Turkheim
With absolute pleasure. I really look forward to seeing you and I loved being, you know, on this show. So thank you very much for having me. It was an absolute pleasure to everybody.
- [50:21]
Rob Nudds
In the Realtime Show Network. If you've got questions for Theo, then please do get in touch via the usual channels. You can contact either Alon, David or me via our email addresses, Rob, Alon or David herealtime show, via the official Instagram handle herealtime show, or via the contact form on the official website www.therealtime show. We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and conversations with the industry's innovators. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.