B (2:46)

What a way to introduce yourself to Pietro. Buying an HYT skull. I mean, that's a niche piece. I've had them on my wrist. I'm a big fan of the brand. You probably, I don't know if you know that, but I'm a huge fan of the brand. Adore hyt. Great choice. Do you still have it in your collection? That's a big question.

C (3:02)

I, I, I actually don't have that piece still in my collection, but I do have an HYT8. Zero unique piece. Oh, wow. That, that was made for me when I did the Gumball 3000 in 2019.

B (3:17)

Gumball 3000? Didn't Arnold and son used to sponsor that back in the day?

C (3:21)

They may well have had something to do with it. There have been a couple of different brands that have done, done pieces with, with the gumball.

B (3:29)

I think I'm thinking of Armin Strom, actually. I think I'm thinking Armin Strom. Was it Armin Strom? David, do you remember this Gumball 3000 special editions? I'm sure one of those brands did. It began with an A.

A (3:38)

No, I am, I am typing furiously now though, to, to find the answer.

B (3:43)

Maybe that's a very niche reference from early in my journalistic career. I do remember covering a special edition at one point. I'm going to find it and bring it up later. So a unique piece, hyt. What else do we have in the collection, Oliver? Because if you're buying H y ts then the possibilities are endless.

C (3:59)

Well, I think like most people, they start their journey with the, with the more well known brands. So my first ever piece was actually bought for me as a, as a 25th birthday gift and that was the Omega Seamaster 300 chronograph. My parents bought that for me. I'd wanted for about 10 years. Obviously didn't have the, have the money, even though at that time it was around about £1,800 compared to the four to five thousand pounds it is now. So that was the very first Swiss luxury watch, I would say, that got added and then, since then, what else? Rolex, Rolex Hulk, a couple of Pateks, Chapek, Lauren Ferrier, Obviously the HYT I've mentioned Bulgari.

B (4:52)

So just a bunch of microbrands then.

C (4:57)

Exactly, yeah. So it's quite, quite varied and even, even a random Eterna Contiki which I, which I dig out Every now and then, just to have some fun. That's what it's all about.

B (5:09)

So David's done a great service for us here. He's been doing some research while we were chatting about your collection, he found out it was Armin Strom I was thinking of. And if you go back, you can even find my article from May 30, 2015. Don't judge me. I was straight new into writing at that point. And also he says Ulis Naddan more recently sponsored the Gumball 3000. Who'd have thought the Gumball 3000 would be such a ripe area for watch brands to collaborate?

C (5:34)

Well, you know, when, when I approached HYT with Pietro, honestly, that they really embraced it because for them it opened opportunities, it opened imagination. And you know, Edgewood is such a forward thinking brand. For me it epitomizes what independent watchmaking is all about. You know, there aren't, I don't think, let's face it, there are that many brands that can genuinely say they come up with a new way of telling the time, but they in my view, just totally smashed it. And they were amazing to work with and the piece itself just came out just amazing. So yeah, look, watches, cars, it's a well worn path, isn't it?

B (6:17)

It is, isn't it? But I mean, that's a strangely specific event to have had at least 53 major collaborators and they are major. Do you think that brands are attracted to the Gumball 3000 specifically because of the clientele it attracts, like the demographic they know they're going to be able to speak to by making those watches?

C (6:36)

No doubt. And, but it's interesting, isn't it? Because of course, you know, of those three, I mean, Armistrom is a great brand. Of course we've, we've been associated with them in the limited edition for, for many years now. We love them. HYT is even smaller than them and really, really specific. But everyone that I spoke to, certainly on the rally and afterwards, if they hadn't heard of hyt, they just loved, they just couldn't get enough of the idea behind what they were trying to achieve. And certainly I think it helped broaden people's appreciation for what HYT was actually doing. And what I, what I appreciate they've, they've started to do now is really kind of broaden the way that they're presenting their pieces. So, you know, it's not, it's not just about the liquid mechanics, which of course is amazing, but the fact that, you know, you've now got Annual calendars, you've got moon phase, you know, these. These kind of complications, I think serious collectors were really looking for, and now they're starting to serve them. And of course, Triple Axis Tourbillon is just out of this world.

B (7:50)

So I think it's pretty easy to break HYT into several eras. Now, obviously, it's been bankrupt a couple of times, come back to life from the death. So those are clear marker points in the company's history and evolution. But stylistically, there's another chapter which I think should be distinct from the previous ones. You've got the original launch where you've got like the H1, the H2, and then of course, that there was the. The H3, which doesn't get much pop at all in that original one. That's a bit of an anomaly. Leave that out for a second. But then there was a second stylistic era with the H0, this lug. Less. More sculptural take on it. Then there was the Chirato era, and now we've got the modern Vaje era, as it were, with the new T1 and the S1 and S2 and whatnot. Which is your favorite era, do you? Because, I mean, you've got one from the H0 era, which I think is the most obscure of the four, if I'm defining them as such. But what's your take on it? Is that your favorite period of time? Is that where you think that they really put the liquid mechanics front and center and embrace who they really were?

C (8:55)

It is my favorite. I love. I love the wearability of it. Even though testing me now, I think it's a 47 mil case. It doesn't wear like that at all because as you rightly say, it's completely lugless. Even though obviously you've got the movement, the mechanics, and obviously all that material. It's also not that heavy either. So it's much more wearable than you think. And although it doesn't necessarily get as much wrist time as I would like it to, it's absolutely up there with one of my favorite pieces ever. But bringing it forward to the. To the sort of the current day, as I mentioned, what I. What I love about what they're doing now is, as I said, they're adding to the formula. Because really, I mean, I ultimately, as someone who has kind of been involved with HMIT for quite a while and had the pleasure of going to NAL and visiting them, I just. I want them to succeed. And what I really want them to do, what I want them to do is really welcome collectors to have a reason to have more than one HYT because realistically they make such a small number of pieces a year that you know, they, they building that loyal following is really important. And so whilst the, the technology is amazing to a certain extent, once, once you have an HYT and you've got that technology, then you can't scratch the edge. Whereas what they've done now in terms of adding a sort of tourbillon or annual calendar or moon phase, they've, they've really started to cater for what I think probably serious collectors would like, which is okay. It's not just one reason to have an hyt, it's multiple now. So now I would say is my current, that was my, my favorite time for the brand. But overall, yes, my, my H0 I think is just a timeless design and as I said, extremely wearable.

B (10:49)

Is actually almost 49 millimeters by the way. Those ones are absolute chunks. So your testimony that it's wearable regardless is, is very important for listeners to hear. David, take it away.

A (11:00)

Yeah, no, I just want to pivot a little bit to the, to the business side. That's usually the topic I like to talk about in these interviews. And you'd mentioned something about H Y T having to basically fight for every sale and the watch business now is not doing so well with the exception of, of the higher end. And I think the impression that I always get when I'm talking about the high end is that it's the really high end and that buying something like an HYT would just be like me running out to the cafe and buying a coffee. But what you're describing actually seems to go against that. So could you provide a little bit of commentary on maybe what the reality actually is like for some of these high end brands and what they have to do to keep convincing people to stay with them.

C (11:43)

I think I can probably answer that question relatively straightforwardly and, and that is this. At the time when I spoke to Pietro about the original skull green eye that I had and the, if I remember correctly it was around about 50,000 and, and the, the straightforward question. This was right at the very beginning of my kind of journey into independent horology. So you know, I, I wasn't really okay with, with so the, the general way that things like that were created. All I knew is that I'd seen this piece and I just thought it was absolutely amazing. And, and I said well look, so you can spend 50000 on this or you can go and spend 50, 000 on the Patek. You know, what, what can you say to me as to how that's going to convince me to put my money there as opposed to elsewhere? And I, and moving on to that, I said, well, okay, in addition, it's a very small company. It's only started a couple of years ago. What happens if, God forbid, something were to go wrong? What happens if, if the, the company were no longer alive? Of course, as you correctly pointed out, Rob, that that did happen and they, they phoenixed. And I know there were issues with certain shareholders and that was really the reason as to why the company had to do what it did structurally. But so, so who's going to look after servicing because, you know, not any watchmaker can go in and, and deal with this kind of movement. And what, what really sort of set my mind at rest was a, the fact that he said, well, look, if you, you bought it through us, then we will take care of it. But specifically in relation to hyt, of course they have Pressiflex behind them and that's where the technology comes from and that has a very strong footing. So if you are to buy the piece or any other hyt, then you have that assurance that basically there's almost a technological pharmaceutical company behind it that will ensure that you are taken care of. And a. Of course, Pietro is superb in terms of the customer service, but that really kind of assuaged any kind of fear that I had that I would be caught my trousers down in the future. But I think realistically that's probably the biggest thing, isn't it? If you haven't already decided to take the leap into independent watchmaking, most people will probably ask the question, well, why would I put my money into something that doesn't have the heritage that I'm to a certain extent almost taking a punt on? And, and I, I made that decision and, and honestly, I can't say that I, I regret it for one second. I, I love the, I love the fact that I don't think there's a, there's a, another watch in my collection that is a better conversation starter that really kind of gets the, Suppose that for one of a better phrase, the juices flowing between watch fans because you just, you just never see pieces like that. And that's, that's kind of the point of these things, isn't it? You know, we can, we can all appreciate, you know, the, the big brands, of course they do amazing things, but when, when you see something that is, that is completely out of the norm on someone's wrist. As far as I'm concerned, you know, it's an automatic win and, and I just want to talk to them about it. So that was ultimately, I think, the real driver for me. And, and as I said, genuinely haven't looked back since.

B (15:22)

Yeah, definitely good value. We've had juices flowing, trousers down and the word assuaged for the first time in 268 episodes of the Real Time show. You can come back. This is great. So I can see why Pietro likes you, but how did your relationship with Pietro develop from client provider to partner? What was the conversation? When did you realize you were going to take that step to add to the Limited edition to your portfolio of activities?

C (15:49)

Good question. Because I don't think there was any particular kind of, you know, BC ad moment. It was just, you know, we, we just started to get on very well. That's, that's the only way I can, I can describe it. You know, we're, we're genuinely friends first and foremost. And in terms of what I do, sort of on a day to day basis, which generally involves trying to pretend that I know what I'm talking about in terms of how businesses need to, need to run and what they need to do in terms of their own sort of internal policies and work within regulations. We just started talking and I think, I sense that perhaps he needs some help with Limited Edition because especially since COVID he's done, he and the team have done an amazing job and you know, there just comes a point where you just don't have sufficient capacity to, to keep that flow going. And so we carried on, we carried on talking and he was looking for additional help and the issue over, over shareholding came up. And you know, why, from, from my view, why would I not want to be involved in a company that is, in my view, at the absolute apex of, of limited independent watchmaking, certainly within the uk, amazing range of brands, customer service level that I've rarely seen. And you know, I've had the, the very fortunate position of, of buying watches from various different, let's say more well known, authorized distributors. So it was just sort of an ongoing process and ultimately a very easy decision to make.

A (17:37)

And do you think that that business case would have looked differently if you're asked to make the same choice today? I mean, again, I'm going back to just the general health of the watch industry. Rob and I were talking when or prior to you arriving in the virtual green room that the Swiss franc is very high now. Compared to what it was, there's tariffs, I mean there's all kinds of things going on. So would that business case look differently if you were offered the same opportunity today as when you actually made the decision?

C (18:06)

No, it wouldn't have changed my decision at all. Actually at the moment is a really exciting time to be part of the limited edition. The fact that, you know, we're celebrating our 10 year anniversary this year is amazing. And as you say specifically when, you know, over the last couple of years it has been a really tough market. But having said all of that, yes, it's been a tough market particularly for the hyped pieces. But we've seen a continuous need and want for independent watches and that's, that's across the price range from, you know, from the more entry level pieces all the way up to the know, let's, let's, let's call them kind of house price pieces. It hasn't really stopped for us and that's, that's the, that's the truth about it. And I think the reason why is of course you know, as a business we're here to, you know, serve our customers and sell watches and ultimately make money. But the, the issue really for me was about how we approach that. And it's what I appreciated and always respected about Pietro was it was never about the push, it was always about the pull. And how that pool was done was simply by getting names out there, educating the community on, on the kind of brands that they would simply wouldn't have, wouldn't have, I guess the platform to get that kind of note to write in the first place and allowing people to make their own decisions and ultimately if they do then fantastic, we're there to support them. So the use case for me, as I said, would not have changed really fundamentally. It's based on those values and the fact that we've got to 10 years now, all thanks to Petri, starting in 2015 and the team behind. There are some exciting things that are in the pipeline.

A (20:13)

Great. So actually I've got a follow up. Well, I say it's tangential but I want to talk just customer demographics and choices because as I'm looking at the website under brands there is a segmentation where you've got independence and you've got micro brands. And within the community there's been a discussion of the place of micro brands, the type of buyer that buys a micro brand. And there is a hypothesis that I don't think we've settled on which is that first time buyers do not buy micro brands. And that's important when you look at how the big group brands are doing and it's got all sorts of effects. But I guess what I'm getting at is what does the typical buyer look like for the limited edition and what is the space of micro brands on their watch journey? Can it be a first purchase or is it farther along their watch journey?

C (21:05)

I think probably on balance you're right in that, you know, if you are looking for your first Swiss luxury watch then the chances that you're going to go for something super obscure is low. But I'm looking at the, the brands that we've got on our website under the micro brand and you know there are a couple that immediately jump up. I love them all but. And in fact actually we've got a couple of very cool limited pieces with Aon did the Guild Spectra and, and we've got another one coming up too. But perfect example to me is Gaga, you know, when, when the Cha and the Powerhouse were released a year or so ago. Okay, I'm relatively seasoned I suppose you might might say. But I fell in love with it straight away and you know, for me the, the, the design was just almost perfect. I love the way that it actually tried to introduce, you know, a complication to the dial. That price point was just, you know, on the money the whole image around it. Personally, maybe I got, I got solved but I got suckered into it completely. And, and actually I know that, that both those pieces have done very well, particularly the cinquent and a few of those did go to people who was their, their first luxury watch. And again, you know, they, they bought into the design, they bought into the, the, the story behind that. So whilst I think yes you're most likely right for the most people that they're not prepared to take the punt that if it's, if it's thoughtful and I guess thought provoking, then I think people will do it atelier. When is another one, you know, they, they're doing amazing things with their integrated bracelets. Very, very cool. Sa Beard, you know, are giving people the kind of options for bespoke pieces that you know, once would. Was probably the, the preserve of you know, the guy spending 2, 300,000, you know, and the fact that you know, they, I think most people will think how on earth, you know, can you, can I completely spec a watch for less than 5,000 Swiss francs? That doesn't make any sense. Plus for the level of design that comes to it. So I, I think the tide is Changing, actually, I think more people are, are delving into the world and once they realize the, the just, just the general cost effectiveness frankly of choosing an independent piece over the more well known brands, then it's a, it's a great gateway.

B (23:58)

This is bizarre. Both David and I were thinking about the independent and the micro brand section on your website. At the same time. I had a different question which pertains to the definitional aspect of micro and independent brands. I'm looking at what you've got in each list. I'm very pleased to see Arcana listed as independent rather than micro because some people refer to it as a micro. But I'm looking at some of the micros and I'm questioning whether or not I define them as such. Like Tatima is one that sticks out to me as almost a heritage brand. So I am curious as to how that split has been made in your mind because it is true, I think, to say, or fair to say at least that microbrand can sometimes be used as a bit of a dirty word in the independent space. Especially a sort of derogatory term. I look at the brands you've got on this website and I'm not sure I really see any that I would comfortably define as micro rather than small independent. I mean you've got Gaga is a great example. There's nothing off the shelf about a Gaga bar. The movement maybe, but you know, there's nothing that you'd expect to see anywhere else. It's all design. Same thing with Zeitwinkel. I mean they make their own movements and they're in the microbrand section. So what's the thinking behind that? Do you have a design takeaway on that? Is it something that is constantly in flux? Can one brand move, I assume only from the micro to the independent and not the other way around. But is that something that happens over time?

C (25:22)

Absolutely right. In, in constant flux is probably the best way to put it because you know, we're, we're always looking for the, the best ways to try and not we not necessarily try and define brands but ultimately we want, we want people to make it, it much easier to navigate around the site to, to, you know, and there are multiple different elements that could contribute to why a particular brand is called a micro brand as opposed to any of the other categorizations that we've got. I mean, yes, look, you've hit nail on the head with cycling. Cool. It's an amazing brand and the guys behind it are just awesome. You know, full German silver base Plates, like really high level of polishing. I love the colors that they put into, into one of their model ranges. Just, just, you know, and, and also when you, when you get to talk to these guys, they're just, they're so accommodating and so passionate about what they, what they're doing that, you know, we, we, it's really, as I said, for us to give the best possible showcase. And of course you can, you know, if you go on to all brands, then you can see every single one that we list. But to a certain extent it's about trying to kind of break it down for people. Bit easier to navigate. And of course, you know, things, things can change as, as I guess times change and, and considerations too.

A (26:42)

No, I want to go back and, and hopefully Rob, you weren't going to carry on with that particular thought, but I want to go back to something that you said earlier, Ali, about accessibility. And you didn't use that word, but it was, it was implied with, you know, making Sartori VR. And ordained is another one that comes up a lot in the comments conversation. And the reason I'm thinking about this is because I read a commentary about someone who I enjoy reading in the fashion industry. His name's Eugene Rapkin. He basically made the case that in tourism and in fashion streetwear, there's been a push to democratize under the, the idea that, yeah, make everything available to everyone, that's the noble thing to do. But then you get a lot of negative effects where it's not really about the culture anymore, it's just about checking it off the list. And so I'm trying to think on one hand, for a retailer, you'd want more traffic and you'd want more interest in watches. But then in the industry there's been a lot of negative effects. Like the hype pieces you mentioned. On balance, it might not be quite so straightforward. So can you speak to that? The effects of democratizing everything, Is that necessarily a good thing 100% of the time?

C (27:52)

No. Look, it doesn't matter what industry you're in. There needs to be, I guess, a level of lack of accessibility that it's just part of our nature that says, well, if there's something that you have to wait for, you can't have it quite now, then you're going to want it more. Of course, all of these brands, they're making watches in such low numbers that there's always going to be that element of that. But it's. I, I suppose that the point that I would take Is the, the inaccessibility. Inaccessibility might be there, but it's there not because it's been engineered in. So, you know, if you, if you want a, let's say, you know, you're, you want a Lauren Ferrier, the new know Sport Auto 79, which in my view is just, just outstanding piece, you know, and they say, yes, you can have one and they'll be with you six months. Fantastic. Six months comes the watch arrives maybe a couple of weeks here or there, but that's how it will be. It's simply a case of, all right, you're in the queue, you know, you're done, you paid your deposit, whatever is it you need to do and you will get that watch. It's the manufacturing of, of this inaccessibility that is for me is the problem. And you know, there are, I can give you one example. 2020, we all know what happened then and the, the watch market I think changed forever as a result. And, and I had asked for a particular piece a, a Patek in towards the November 2020. And I, and I said, look, it's a relatively big sticker item, you know, you need to kind of give me an idea here of, of how long it will be. And, and I was told around six to eight months. I said, okay, that's fine, we can work with that. And within three weeks I got a message to say congratulations. Now, of course this is, this is the reverse of what I'm trying to say. But at the same time I think that the principle holds true, which is, you know, this is something that, you know, you are, you're planning for. You know, most, most people don't buy these kind of things on a whim. In my view, if at all possible, it's great to tie it with a, with a life event or it's to commemorate something or an achievement. Maybe it's for a loved one, for a birthday and, you know, you're thinking in advance, it doesn't matter, frankly, whether it's a thousand pounds or 100,000, most of the time you're not just going to just turn up and just drop that kind of money. And it was clearly what had happened, reading between the lines, that another order had fallen through and this one had become available. And on top of that, of course there was then the requirements that notwithstanding the cost of the piece, of that the sale needed to be concluded within a short order. And whilst of course, you know, I absolutely loved that watch, the, the way that it was done didn't quite Sit well with me. And that's, that's the kind of game playing that personally, I, I'm not really interested in. I don't. None, none of the brands that we represent do that. If it's available and it can be made or it can be done for you, then it will be, then that's what will happen. And this is the lead time. All parties in agreement? Let's go.

B (31:39)

So you've got a lot of experience on both sides of the fence. Now. You've been a long time buyer, you've bought from a huge variety of brands from entry level all the way up to the very top of the tree. And now you've worked with customers, you know, what you what want a customer to expect, what kind of service you expect them to receive. Has any of this ever crystallized in the desire to start your own brand? Or is it a case of the more, you know, the, the less you want to put yourself through that torture?

C (32:09)

I love that question. Has it crossed my mind? Yes. And, and actually both Pietro and I have thought about, you know, whether there is, there are specific editions that we want to create. We haven't, we haven't really got anywhere near even formulating a plan. But what I do know is my genuine admiration for the guys like, for example, like you have with Arkano and anyone who decides they want to really put their heart and soul into a watch. You absolutely have my. Have my hat, my admiration because it is really difficult and to distill your own vision and imagination into a piece, irrespective of whether you're doing your own movements or you're buying them in. But the idea that, okay, you think that you can actually create something that is true to what your, what you want your vision of a watch to be is honestly, it's amazing and it's a really, really hard path. And I don't think enough people appreciate just how difficult it is to do that. And so to answer your question, would I love to do it? Absolutely. Maybe in the future.

B (33:36)

So you're not quite ready to take the plunge yet. And really, as someone who has been involved in very grassroots brand development projects, I can say you're probably wise for not taking that leap blindly at least. But where would you go in terms of industry bracket? Would you start something small? Would you want to go for ultra complicated pieces straight out of the gate? Would you want to assemble a super team? Would you focus on design horology? Where is your preference? When you have had those discussions or those musings alone, or With Pietro.

C (34:10)

For me, I think the most important part of all of it is getting your design and your case right. First of all, that I think is always going to be your calling card. Something that really stands out on the wrist and that can be in any sector, whether it's in sports or it's in dress watches that just as I said, distilling how you see a watch, how it should lie on the wrist, you know, the kind of effect that it should have, you know, should it be under the radar, should it be a little bit more edgy, you know, the, the, the, the attention to detail in terms of, you know, how you're going to do the bezel, is it going to be multi stepped? You know, that to me is, is that's where the real work goes in first of all. And then I guess there are two teams of thought out there. One is that you start at the lower end with a simple piece that really just shows off your design philosophy. Alternatively, there's that plus adding complication right from the get go. And I've already mentioned Laura Choyer, I'm fortunate enough to have model their sport auto and of course he went in right to the deep end and you know, opened up with a TourBillon back in 2010. So, you know, there's no right or wrong answer. But, but to me, and again, I hope you don't mind me saying it, one of the reasons why, and obviously I've done videos on, on your pieces, I, I massively appreciate what you've done is because, you know, your case looks like unlike any other, plus you are, you're having fun with it as well. And let's not, let's not forget that, you know, we can talk about serious watchmaking and the way things are finished and what complication and etc. Etc. But if it's not fun, then there's no point. And, and that, that really has to, you know, that has to come through what you're looking to buy and ultimately how you're wearing it. This is a lot about you as an individual and ultimately of course you as a manufacturer too. So that's what I would say.

B (36:26)

Very interesting and quite satisfying to hear that you focus on the case because I feel that the majority of people looking to do something that gives off a creative perception, shall we say, in the entry level bracket at least, always focus on the dial. And there's a lot of surveys done that suggest the dial is the deciding factor between which watch people buy. But I think that that can be quite misleading because I've always agreed with you that the case is the starting point. It's the footprint on the wrist. It's the thing that doesn't change when the dials do. I think the dial is maybe the decisive factor between one of many, one of many variations of the same model. But I don't think that you go for a dial without the case being exactly where you want it to be anyway. When you have customers come to you, when you talk to people at events, which I guess is probably the time that you personally interact with customers or would be customers the most, do they give you the same feedback that the case is what they think about when buying a watch first and foremost, or do they often talk about the dial or some other element we haven't touched upon?

C (37:29)

We're quite fortunate, of course, that, that at our events we tend to have some very special pieces. And so in all likelihood, all those different characteristics would meld into one, and the appreciation of each individual one would, will be discussed. But the way I see it is once, once you've got the shape of the watch, then ultimately, you know, the world is your oyster in terms of, you know, how, what materials or colors you want to put into the dial. And that's, that's obviously a way of creating particularly limited editions or however you want to do it. But, you know, if, if someone's buying it for the dial, then that's a great thing. But I'm not so sure that it is the key to the recipe, to longevity, whether that's for the brand or for the model or both, because, you know, that's, that is your identity. And I think probably the, the best, the best possible example of this is AP in the Royal Oak, because, of course, it's known so well for that the Offshores are becoming less and less popular, but only as a result of the, the. What appears to be a shrinkage in what people want in terms of size of watches, but the DNA is there. And, you know, when, when they brought out the code, a lot of people said, well, AP have taken eight years to design this, this case. And in my view, I thought they were unfairly derided because when you're looking at the design philosophy in that piece, in my view, and of course it's totally subjective, I think actually they created a very, very pretty piece. And, and, and to a certain extent, it was again, in my view, the launch pieces, it was, it were the dials that let the, let the watch down. The perpetual calendar aside, which was just outstanding, and it's still My favorite of that particular model, they were, they. They were almost a little bit. Even though they had colors, they just didn't really move in the way they needed to. Once they corrected that, then they had the complete package. So I think that that really is kind of, as I said, that design philosophy allowing you to. To make something that is instantly recognizable, but again, that caters for different sectors, all stems from the case. You limit yourself if it's just about a dial.

B (40:06)

I 100% agree with you when it comes to the launch models of the code 41. I also thought the dial did not present the case, which I thought had a lot of nice callbacks to what had gone before in the best possible light. And Also the name, code 41, not great in my mind. Not iconic. Does a name matter, in your opinion? Have you ever, have you ever found somebody not buy a watch because of the name?

C (40:29)

No, I've never come across that. And, and actually, I think when you're, when you're, when you're deep in the weeds, as I think we all are to a certain extent, having a completely random name that you think no one will. Will have heard of is almost. Is almost a. An extra bonus. What is that? Oh, it's a X Zeit Winkle, for example. Tutima. Tutima is amazing. Their chronographs are just outstanding. We did an event with them the end of last year. Really, really beautiful watches. 99.9% of people out there probably will never have heard of these guys, but you look at their pieces and they're just amazing. Andrea Estrella is another one. I know that's kind of ultra horology, really, but just no, never come across that as a reason for not purchasing a watch.

A (41:22)

So one thing, actually, the AP code is a great example of what I call a zombie opinion, which is that given the online discourse, someone will say something and then most people will kind of follow along with that. And all of a sudden that's the reputation for the watch. And I think you're in a bit of a particular position because a lot of the watches that you would stock at the limited edition are polarizing by design, and that's fine for a small subset of people. But is there a way for watch brands to move away from some of these opinions that are formed very much in the moment and then are very hard to shake off down the line?

C (42:01)

That's the problem with where we are in 2025, isn't it? And what social media can and can't do for you, then I guess it's really about the courage of your convictions and I suppose again, using you, Robert, hope you don't mind with Archonaut is that's your vision and that's what you've created. And there are always going to be some people who deride it and some people who don't. I think, I think the, the issue, I guess, with those brands, AP or Patek, is, is not necessarily the design because you know you're always going to get the fanboys regardless of, of the brands you're talking about. The real issue, I think is, is when you start saying, well, you can have a Nautilus, but only if you buy a code. That I think is the problem. But then that also goes back to the discussion in terms of falsely creating hype or demand or not being able to say precisely when items are going to be delivered. If you created a timeless design, then you will be okay. It will come round. The people that make noise at the very beginning in general will fall away. And look, at the same time, even if you haven't quite got it right at the very beginning, that's what time is for. It's about consideration, it's about revisiting, it's about improvement. And you can always make things better. But if you started off with that sort of initial baseline, which again, using the code as an example, in my view, they did, and then within two years had brought out the right kind of combination of case and dials to make everything sing, as I said. Now I think it's a very, very pretty dress watch. And, and I, I, I don't, I'll be interested to see actually whether the people that, that did criticize it right at the very beginning still have the same view.

A (44:07)

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because it gets right to the heart of the positioning of these larger brands versus the, the ones that you would stock at the limited edition. Because as you were speaking, I was reminded of another AP collection which I don't think got a lot of love, which was the millinery. And it's, it's tough, right, because people want innovation from their known brands because then they can have their KK82, which is big brand, more innovation. But then people seem to spurn them when they actually try and do something different. Do you have any comments on, on that?

C (44:40)

Could not agree more. And Millenary is, is, I think is an amazing shape, massively underrated. And you know, let's face it, you can, you can pick up some of these incredible pieces on the secondary market. For, for, yeah, very, very, very good prices. And it's a shame, isn't it? You know, you, they, they will get, they will get criticized for saying, oh, you're, all you are is about the Royal Oak or now Patek is all about Nautilus and whatever. And as you say, when you try and do something different or you've, you've cocked it up, well, you know, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. But, you know, they're at least they're trying to do something different. Perhaps we'll leave any kind of discussion over the cubitus out at this point, but, you know, at least they're trying. And I think using the code as an example, that's a great way of showing that the lineage is still sort of true to something that is, you know, an icon in watchmaking, but absolutely modern the way of its interpretation.

B (45:52)

So tell us about the event strategy of the limited edition because, you know, you stock a lot of brands, you're online only, but you are active in the physical community quite regularly. How effective is that for you? And is there a plan to ever put a physical space somewhere in the world, probably London, I guess, for the limited edition?

C (46:14)

To answer your question in reverse, yes, there is, I can't say anything at the moment, but it is, shall we say, sooner than one might think that we, that we will have our. A physical space. It's going to be a really exciting concept. We are, we generally can't wait to get it, to get it sorted and up and running. But all of it has always centered around the community of really it's loyal and enthusiastic customers and clientele that we, and particularly Pietro and the team before I came on board, have really managed to engender all the events that we hold. Honestly, particularly over the last two years. I'm amazed that, that each time, regardless the different brands, every single time, you know, whether we hold it at, regardless of venue, where we actually hold the, the events, we always get such an amazing turnout and feedback and, and we, it's, it's humbling for us because as you rightfully say, you know, that it, that really all about the connection that we're trying to make. And you know, buying a watch, again regardless of price point is a big purchase, particularly in these times. And so the fact that people are trusting us with not only purchasing but even before that with advice we're providing, I think an invaluable link between people and the, the, the manufacturers, the owners, the founders, giving them the opportunity to be able to have a proper conversation with them to understand what makes them tick is, you know, there aren't that many on that many distributors out there who do it. And also, let's face it, you know, the, the, the vast majority of the big brands, it's actually almost impossible unless you know, you've, you've got an order book as long as your arm and they're on first name terms with the board. So that's, that's really how we've always emphasized the difference we can make. And so far it's been, it's been an incredible journey. You know, events every six weeks or there or thereabouts. And the fact that we've got our 10 year anniversary where, anniversary in September where we were going to have multiple brands exhibiting and yes, with the exciting pipeline of, of, of our own physical space, just looking forward to connecting with more and more of our community and, and, and our amazing manufacturers.

B (49:14)

I'm absolutely sure that this conversation about having a physical space has been ongoing for many, many years because nothing happens quickly in watchmaking in general and certainly not when it comes to making the kind of investment necessary to tool up a location in one of the most expensive cities in the world to adequately service your clients. But has the presence, visibility and success of the Time and Tide studio in London expedited these plans to move it forward? Have you seen that it's been done and you think, okay, well we can do it. Or is it something you see as a necessary response to another retailer in the same sort of space? Or are relations very convivial between you and the Time and Tide crew and you're able to use their space for your own events as well? What's the story there?

C (49:57)

The relationship between us and the guys there are great. In fact, actually Pietra and I had a, had lunch with them just over a month or so ago and it was, that was the first time I got to meet them in person. But no relationship. Absolutely great. And we had a really in detail conversation about all sorts of topics. I can confidently say that what we're doing is not as a response to what anyone else on the market is doing. We have been looking for the right space, the right concept for quite a while. What Time and Tide has done is just phenomenal. It's really brought independent watchmaking, particularly within a certain bracket, shall we say, out into the open and, and honestly, they've got absolute best wishes. They're doing amazing things, but our sector and outlook is different. They have a particular way of doing things. Ours is in our own image, the kind of brands that we look after. Okay, there is, there's a slight crossover in terms of a couple of brands, but in general we're in different segments. So no, as I said, nothing really as a result of what anyone else has done. It was really about what's the right place, you know, what's the right feel that we want to create for our community and how is it best going to represent the brand that we are at the limited edition and what's the best way of showcasing the amazing manufacturers that we have. So yeah, and I think that's really the only way you can do it. If you start doing things out of a knee jerk reaction, then most likely you've already missed the boat and you have a problem.

B (51:49)

What a great lesson for all of our listeners to learn and a brilliant point upon which to end. Oliver, thank you very much for your time. It was a pleasure to finally talk to you. I know we've been trying to get this lined up for a while, but with you being as busy and as active as you are in the scene, working as hard as you are on the limited edition behind the scenes, for the most part, it's understandable why these things take time. We wish you a wonderful Geneva watch days and hope to see you there. And if any of our community have questions for Oli or the rest of the limited edition team, then please get in touch via the usual channels and we'll pass them on to him in person. You can contact us via the official instagram handle @therealtime shop show via the contact form on the website www.therealtime.show via our personal emails either Rob Alon or David herealtime show and you can contact Scarlet via Instagram at scarlintheshire. That's S C A R L I N T H E S H I R E We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's innovators. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.

C (52:54)

It.