C (3:38)

Rob, does it pain you that the Swiss now own this British master and produce everything in Switzerland?

B (3:46)

No, not at all. I mean, as you know, I'm not hugely patriotic, certainly not when it comes to watchmaking. I do think that England and, yeah, Britain in general, I suppose, although I don't know many Welsh or Scottish watchmakers from the past, but England specifically does sometimes get a bit of a short shrift when it comes to the history and a lot of the developments. I mean, we only mention the name John Harrison to know how important Britain's contribution to watchmaking has been over time. I think that everything ebbs and flows, it moves like in phases and we're seeing a bit of a renaissance in British watchmaking. So I don't think, even though now it seems when you look at the Swiss industry, that it's an absolutely closed shop and there's no way that any other nation could rise up and challenge it in the future. I'm not so sure that's true. Because if we talk about how the industry is evolving and how there's this enormous separation now between the mainstream brands and the ever more dynamic micro brand scene, there's a real possibility that another part of the industry could step up and be really the focal point for collectors in the future, or at least we're going to see a generation of very split collectors, those that love heritage brands in the past and those that enjoy the novelty and the agility of smaller makers. So I don't take it, certainly don't take it personally and I really think that it's just an interesting wrinkle in the history of this incredible brand.

C (5:13)

Pascal, is the number one market, the UK for Arnold San?

A (5:18)

No, the number one market is us, actually. It's the us, It's North America.

B (5:26)

Surprise, surprise.

A (5:28)

Yes, UK is an important market for us because we have three important clients in very much concentrated in London City. We would like to expand in other territories because, I mean, wealth in England is really spread across the territory now. Another important market also for the brand is the Middle east, actually, because the brand has been very well worked in the Middle east for decades. And yeah, we have a lot of loyal clients working with the brand.

B (6:20)

And.

A (6:20)

I think we have some complications also that resonates for the middle display until and especially with the mood phase complications that we have.

C (6:30)

So I've been dying to ask you guys the ANS caliber the 8513, the double tourbillon. And this is my ignorance because I'm not a watchmaker, unlike Rob. Does it also have resonance effects or is it just for visual stimulation to have the double tourbillons in that caliber.

A (6:54)

So you don't have resonance on this caliber could be an idea to have a resonance and to have them synchronized in the future. No, I think the idea at the beginning was really to have two independent orbillons, each one driving a different time zone. And what's special on this timepiece as well? Except I mean if you take out just the visual Effect and the 3D effect of the bridges that are holding the tourbillon cage above the, above the dial, it's actually you have two crowns. So one crown is rewinding the full movement 90 hours power reserve with two barrels and you're able to set the local time zone. And then the second crown is only to set the second time zone which allow you actually to set the second time zone to the minute. So even for countries in India where you have 30 minutes time difference or other, other countries where you have Even eventually only 15 minutes, this timepiece can actually display two different time zones which are not only one hour time difference. So that's the, that's the idea between the. To have those two tourbillon completely complet, completely independent even though it's one single movement that is running. And that's the top of the pyramid. This collection for our product portfolio. And now we only make it in PS Unique unique pieces. So each time coming with new materials, new fine stones for dials. Now already over the last three, four years and this year we sold at Watches and wonders the most expensive timepiece from Arnold Lenson which is actually a double tourbillon in platinum with a case which is fully set with diamonds and baguette emeralds on the bezel. So it's a, it's a half a million beauty.

B (9:29)

That's, that's quite a price tag. But it's also quite an incredible piece. If we look at the standard, say standard collection, the, the three piece uniques that are currently displayed on the website, we've got the double tourbillon with in white gold collab with chrono Passion. Then we have double top you on white gold with a, a beautiful green dial and then double topping on white gold, beautiful purple dial. The price for the latter two is €256,000 and 200 which is A, you know, a bargain. And then for the chronopassion1 is 2000. Sorry for the Chrono Passion1, it's 259,000. Now I wonder, Pascal, what was the real reason for the €2800 difference between the collab piece and the other two in the lineup?

A (10:22)

I think normally they should be all more or less at the same price. Maybe it's coming from the. I think it's coming maybe from the currency exchange rate, depending from which country you're reading the price on the website because it adapts to the price list of the country automatically. So in Swiss francs the price is the same, but might be that in other currency you will have a small discrepancy.

B (10:56)

Very interesting because I'm looking at them all in euros and there's this teeny tiny discrepancy there, which I just, I find more amusing than anything else because I think at this price point you kind of. You charge what you need to charge and then just keep it steady. They're all in white gold at the moment. You mentioned there was a platinum example. Are there yellow gold examples, rose gold examples? And if so, do you bother shifting the price around? Because I know some brands, when they're operating in this rarefied air, as it were, they. They don't really make a difference for the material at all, even sometimes between gold, platinum and steel.

A (11:35)

So on the, on the more affordable part of the collection, I would say on the core collection, we have definitely price difference between the, between the different material and in general, to give you an idea between red gold and platinum, you have in general a price difference that would be around 9,000 to €11,000 for a similar piece and similar complication here. It's true that on the double tourbillon we made no price difference between the red gold and the white gold. They are positioned at the same price, even though we should maybe have the white gold a little bit higher. Now the platinum, it's going to be. It's a full re engineering of the case that we've made. We're going to launch it first, only with gem set execution. But I think in the future we will move from yellow gold to platinum on this double tourbillon because. Yeah, that's, that's. I think it makes better sense to work with platinum rather than, rather than white white gold.

C (13:03)

On topic of pricing, Arnold, sun starts. I also see euros 18,400 for the Nebula 38 in steel.

A (13:14)

Correct.

C (13:15)

Kant, Arnold and son make watches in lower price points. Or won't you? And if so, why not?

A (13:23)

I don't think we will go lower than that. For Arnold and Son. And the reason why is quite simple is that actually if you talk about the Nebula, which is our bestseller, it represents, to give you an idea, around 25% of the volume of our production across all styles of Nebula. If you look at competition, you have nothing under 22,000 Euro for a similar product offering, meaning manufacturer skeletonized movements in stainless steel of this level of execution you don't have that can be available on alligator rubber, stainless steel strap, a stainless steel bracelet, you have nothing available on the market under 22,000 Euro. So we offer actually an outstanding value for the price. And I think that's one of the key comments that we have from not only our retailers, but also the collectors. They are amazed by the price point that we managed to reach for the value we provide. And I think it echoes to the conversation we had some time ago on Angelus when we spoke about the manufacturer. The fact that we have a fully integrated manufacturer give us the opportunity to provide outstanding fine watchmaking at very good price points. And I think that's the strength of having this integrated manufacturer.

C (15:24)

Talking of which, I now only realize that the Angular website doesn't have pricing. Is that strategic or simply because the Iron on the sun site has been updated recently and Angulus is the next.

A (15:36)

One you spotted perfectly, Helen. That's it. So we made a new website for Arnold and Son last year and we should have a new website for Angelus coming this second semester. So using a similar architecture that we developed for Arnold and so on. So you're completely right, that's we are a small team so we do a phasing in our projects actually.

C (16:11)

Very good. And Arnold Hassan got a 260th birthday gift first new website.

A (16:15)

Yes.

C (16:16)

There is no buy button. Is that a strategic move in the world where all the brands are verticalizing and try to capture all the retail spent directly.

A (16:27)

But we are available online on the website of our retailers. You know, when you are building high end network of retailers, you cannot ask them to invest on the brand on the nice collection because we have quite a wide collection with many different type of complications and at the same time try to capture their clientele. So our approach is very loyal to our business partners. We are extremely happy to work with them to push the brand to meet their clients, help them to sell out and explain our brand and our products. But we will always direct the sales to our retailers. There might be an exception if there's a country where we are not represented and customers customer wants to come and take the piece at the Manufacturer. Okay, there might be some exceptions possible, but really we direct the business to our retailers and I think they appreciate that and it's building a lot of confidence and trust in the relationship and bottom line, they are opening the address book in much more friendly and open way and we can really manage to do good business this way. Then after you have other brands, their strategy is to go full direct to consumer, which I respect. It's a totally different business model but we believe that with our products we need to, we need to have and, and to provide the right level of service to our, to, to collectors, to clients. We want to have a strong retail, retail network.

C (18:44)

As a retailer I can only salute that and compliment you. Thank you for having our backs. Talking of the product lines again, if I'm not mistaken, the most newest family member is the longitude collection.

A (18:58)

That's correct. So we have actually three, three pillars in the collection. The first pillar, which is the biggest pillar, we call it chronometry. That's where you have all the timepieces that are inspired from the marine chronometers from John Arnold and the related inventions from John Arnold. So that's where you will have our nebula, you will have our tourbillon pieces, you will have our true bit. Second and definitely the longitude. Then you have another pillar which is the astronomy. That's where we have our moon phase complication with the perpetual moon. So the largest two dimension moon phase that takes half of the dialogue and the Luna Magna which is the largest 3D rotating moon phase ever made into a wristwatch. And the last pillar is the world time. So that's where we have in particular our globetrotter, our world timer. And this pillar relates to the fact that John Arnold equipped famous explorers. So to go back on the longitude. Longitude is a completely new collection that we launched at watches and wonders 2024. So what's interesting is that now we have a year track record in term of sales. And this timepiece first of all is a tribute to one part of the life of General Arnold which was all his work in improving the accuracy and reliability of marine timing instruments. Also is the one who industrialized the production of the marine timekeeper so that it could be widely used by the Royal Navy, giving a competitive advantage to the Royal Navy against the French Navy. In particular, the could be widely used on commercial ships, could be also used for exploration of the world. And this timepiece also the longitude recalls the fact that in 1779 John Arnold present to the Royal Observatory in Greenwich a timepiece of his making which is The Arnold number 36, which is after 13 months of trial by the observatory, is considered as the most precise timepiece ever made to that date. And from following this reward, John Arnold names this timepiece a chronometer. And from that date, chronometer will be used for supremely precise timepiece. And that's why we wanted the longitude.

C (22:20)

To be.

A (22:23)

Certified chronometer. So that's really a collection that encompass a lot of the DNA, a lot of the history, a lot of the legacy of John Arnold. And what's interesting also strategically with this collection for the brand is that it's our first spor chic timepiece with integrated bracelets. So you know, we are known for very classic designs with the rest of the collection. And with this timepiece, it's fully made of titanium, water resistant, 100 meter. And our objective with this collection was really to capture a new clientele to the brand.

C (23:12)

So I'm very curious what the design brief was, because I'll salute the fact that you took Arnold and son into the 21st century with a modern watch. Integrated bracelet, titanium, rather clean design. So did you start with the calibre, which is a new caliber you guys developed as well? Did you start with the calibre and then came the design of the watch. Did you reverse engineer it? Please share a bit. And do you use outside designers or.

A (23:43)

Is this done fully internally? So in terms of design, we have our own design team, so we don't rely to any external designer. And I think that's what brings also a beautiful consistency in the collection. That's really a key point. And then regarding the caliber, you're right, Helen, to say that it's a fully new caliber. So we worked of course on our automatic base, that is a base also that we use for our glob trotter or for our dioxide through bit. But we wanted to develop an additional complication. First of all, make the caliber compliant for chronometer certification. But the last thing also we wanted to display the power reserve. And the power reserve is displayed at 12 o'. Clock. And if you look at the antique marine timekeeper from John Arnold and the dial of this longitude collection, you see immediately the connection. Rob mentioned about the importance of John Harrison, sorry, John Harrison, when He did the H1, took two years, two years to match the H1, two years to make the H2, John. And the information was splitted on four different diodes with a huge clock. Actually what John Arnold did is he miniaturized everything, made it easier to replicate, improved the accuracy Improved the reliability by a simplification of the caliber. And he's been putting all the information on the single diode. So the single dial that puts hour minutes power reserve at 12 o' clock and small second at six actually is the signature of the Marine timekeepers from John Arnold. And that's what we have with this collection.

B (25:57)

I love, love, love the Longitude. It's my favorite model by Arnold and son by quite some way. It's right on my street. It is obviously similar in some ways to a lot of excellent integrated steel bracelet sports watches that we've seen on the market. Except it's in titanium, of course. What was the response to it? Because let's not, you know, obfuscate what I mean by this. It has similarities to the Czappa Cantat, the Tissot PRX, the CW12, the Parmigiani Tonda, you know, and also actually one that I saw the other day which blew my mind for how it had taken cues from so many of these high end classics. But the Venezianico Arsenal Platinum, which is, you know, a gorgeous watch in itself is not of the same quality of this Longitude piece. What was the response to it from your community? Those not similarities, let's say. Tropes can't be ignored. This was a piece for now. It was a piece that hit the market, I think at the right time. Were people as impressed with it as I was.

A (27:03)

That's a piece that we would have loved to launch earlier. Actually. We've been working really for some time actually since 2021 we've been working on this piece for various reasons. We could only launch it for watches and wonders. 24 and I think it was good that we took the time to do it. So maybe we were not among the first to hit this sport chic integrated bracelet trend. But what everything. I mean everyone from our retailers and end consumers recognize that the Longitude is really a beautiful timepiece by itself. And it's not a me too or a timepiece that you see too obviously inspired by some of the market leaders to name them Nautilus or ap. And most important, the brand has really a DNA. It relates to an history. So that was the first very positive feedback that we have. And that was really our goal to have really to go our own way with this timepiece. And we did it because we wanted.

B (28:32)

To.

A (28:34)

Actually capture a new clientele. And the good news is that we did with this timepiece. I have many examples of customers that I met personally that are big collectors of sport chic integrated Bracelet timepieces of sports timepieces I would say. And they never considered Arnold Denson before because they saw it as too classic. And they stepped now into the world of John, Arnold and Arnold and son through the longitude and after. Since we have a very wide collection with many different complications, we see that most of our customers are repeated customers. They start with one collection, can be longitude, can be nebular, and after they're going to step up to the other collection. They're going to go for flying tourbillon, they're going to go for a moon phase complication, they're going to go for a true beat. And a lot of our customers end up having 3, 4, 5, 6 pieces from Arnold and son. And that's something that you can achieve if you are not a mono brand, mono product brand and that you have really a wide but consistent collection.

B (30:00)

You're far from a mono product brand or mono model as I like to say. Otherwise yeah, my fault. Mono model brand, far from that. What you do have is just like Angelus and I commented this on our previous episode together how I love the tightness of your catalog, how there is no wasted space, there's no fat in this lineup at all. You have your very high end pieces, you have your more daily wearable stuff and then you have the astronomical complications. I think that that really helps when it comes to communication of a brand and its ideals. Is it difficult though within that tight collection to know where to take things next? Or do you have a 5, 10, 15 year product plan ahead of you already and know exactly where you're going?

A (30:48)

Well, to be honest, we are not 15 years ahead, but I would say a good five years. Yes, easily. When, when I arrived in 2021, the first thing has been to restructure the, the, the, the portfolio of product. We had many great products but the whole collection was looking was, was like a mess, you know, I mean even myself after two, three, four weeks in the company I had difficulties really to, to understand the full collection. So imagine a retailer and imagine a hand customer. So that's how we came with this idea of connecting every timepiece with the DNA because that creatively it was connected to the history of general. So we just had ready to formalize the link and then regroup by team. And the three theme came out very obvious also because it was related to navigation which was the key point astronomy. So latitude, chronometry, longitude and world time, navigation, exploration and that's giving consistency and a clear understanding of the collection was the first step. Then the Second step, we had to revisit all our icons. Because when I arrived the collections, I mean, 42 millimeter was the smallest size you had in the collection. It was everything between 42 to 47 millimeter, you know, so an age which is far from where we are now. And now everything is pretty much between 38 to 42, with only one exception being the Luna Magna. But considering the size of the complication itself, you cannot make it smaller. And then now you have to consider what are the relevant complications that should come out in the future. And yes, definitely, we have a great idea and a good understanding. There will be always a mix of improving existing calibers, but coming also with new complications and new calibers that display new type of complication or combine different complications in the future. But everything will always be related to the tradition of the British watchmaking of the 18th century, to John Arnaud, and a direct link with the. The history of John Arnold. I think the last piece that we launched, actually, which is our first, I would say, heritage legacy piece, which was the Constant Force Tourbillon that we launched at Watches and wonders in 25, which is a timepiece that celebrates to close the anniversary of the brand, the link between Jonah and the friendship between Jon Arnault and Abraham Lubreguet is definitely a timepiece that received an outstanding response from the clients, the retailer, the journalist, and opened, you know, new territories for the brand. I think with this piece, we. We have probably also a new. Should I call it a new line or a new trend, a new way to develop our collections also in the future.

B (34:47)

Now, I don't want to put you in a situation that makes you feel uncomfortable, but John Arnold, as we know, was very closely associated with Brega. Yes. So close, in fact, that their sons were each other's apprentices. Brega is a brand that we discuss frequently on the Real Time show on air, and also in the Realtime show network on WhatsApp. As a brand that may have somewhat lost its way and maybe is not placing the emphasis on what people expect to see from a maker of Bregaze heritage, as it should. Arnold and Son has, over the last 10 years, produced an immense number of calibers. By any metric, it's really focusing on the watchmaking. Do you look at Breguet as a direct competitor to Arnold and Son still? And are you, well, shall I say, rubbing your hands with glee at the fact that they're maybe not capitalizing on the prestige of their maker's name? While Arnold and Son seems very much to be doing that or do you still think that Breguet is a worthy opponent? And the existence, the continued existence of both the Arnold and Breguet names in watchmaking is only a good thing for the craft?

A (35:57)

Well, I think first of all, I mean, Abraham Lud Breguet, I mean, is the greatest watchmaker of all time. I think it's indisputable. So it had some ups, it had some downs, I hope. I'm sure the new CEO, who's very talented person will probably launch a very interesting product and they are celebrating their 250th anniversary this year. So I really hope they will come out with astonishing products. And there's been some interesting first release. So. But I don't want to comment too much on others. What we wanted to highlight there was really the friendship between two of the greatest watchmaker of. Of the 18th century, not to say of all times, they collaborated because back in the 18th century it was also a lot about collaboration. So we didn't want to be provocative to say that it was maybe one of the first collaboration of the watch industry, but we could have said so, maybe. And to answer your question, in terms of competitors, I think with Arnold and Son, with the style and first of all, the very long history that we have, but also the very niche brand approach and very exclusive approach and creative approach that we have, we definitely have two type of competitors. I mean, retailers that take the brand, they definitely see that it's Arnold and Son can be coming on the tray together with, together with the Breguet, with the Blancpain, with the Vacheron. And on the other hand, it's also a timepiece that will be coming on a tray together with maybe a Moser, Laurent Ferrier or, you know, other beautiful niche, niche brands. So with the mix of outstanding and very long history that we have, but the very creative, exclusive niche approach that we have as well, we are really seeing ourselves as competitors of those two worlds, I would say the mainstream and the niche.

B (38:41)

Should we expect to see more diversification within the Longitude range? Because as I see at the moment, there's three dial options similar in decoration style, where we see enamel dials, where we see use of experimental materials, for example, what should we expect from the Longitude collection?

A (38:59)

Yes, I think Longitude, I mean, since the launch has been really successful and it's representing, you know, after less than one year, approximately 16% of our sellout, we definitely will develop new color and material combination in the future in limited edition to complement the two other reference permanent that will stay and Things we also envision for the future is to bring in also new complications as well in this collection. That this collection by itself could have an array of different complications. That's definitely the future. And we are also working possibly on, on the new size in the future as well.

B (39:55)

Interesting. So I assume you'll go smaller rather than larger with a longer tune collection, I guess.

A (40:03)

Probably. Probably, Probably.

B (40:05)

Okay, regarding complications, do you envisage more daily complications like a date or a big date or a day night indicator? Or are we talking higher end stuff like. Well, okay, a chronograph might be a complication. It could work in that case. Although thickness might be an issue. Although when it comes to movement development and the necessity for integrated chronograph, you're better placed than most. Or do we anticipate something a little more, a little fruitier, shall we say?

A (40:33)

Yeah, we have really, I mean not everything will come at all at once. We have plans to come really with a variety of complications from the most, as you mentioned, everyday complication to really higher end complication. And you know, for some of those complications, we are challenging the manufacturer, you know, in improving, you know, our processes or skills on things maybe that we don't do yet. And so there would be, yeah, I think definitely in the longitude collection there will be at least one nice novelty coming every year for the next five years. That's definitely the, definitely the plan.

B (41:35)

Well, sign me up because like I said, this is a collection that I feel offers an awful lot of possibilities for the future. And I'd, I'd love to get one of those on my wrist long term. You don't have to send me one, it's fine. I, I know where to find one. But what a great watch. Alon, where do you come down on this collection? What are your favorite pieces? What are your favorite collections?

C (41:58)

I, you know, I voted for the feminine watch, the ladies watch, during the GPHG Academy sessions and during our recordings where we have the full moon and the wavy dial. So it's the perpetual moon 38, the white gold, which you guys called the mint night.

A (42:25)

Yes.

C (42:26)

So I love that watch and I do love moon phases. So the perpetual moon is an all time high. I, I, I, I, I always think of Jacques Duro when I see the watches that are in the chronometry collection. So, so the watches that either the Ultra Tintobio for example, I have a weird relationship with Roman numerals, so usually I, I discount all these models. But the dial side true beat I think is magnificent. So there's so much there to explore. And if I had to buy an Arnold Sun, I guess the Longitude will be the first one I would buy. So I think you've hit a nerve there by bringing in Arnold's son into modernity. So compliments to you guys.

A (43:28)

Thank you. Yeah, I think that was interesting what you mentioned about the perpetual moon and that you spoke about the feminine timepieces of the collection, the 38. I think this timepiece shows also that even though we are selling most of our timepieces to gentlemen, we are also in the process of sharing our watchmaking art with ladies and gentlemen is. It's limited in term of offering, but very much appreciated. And I think it shows also that Arnold and Son, I mean, you have the mechanical mastery, the caliber knowledge, the manufacturer behind. I mean, that's a given. But I think a lot of the value also on our timepieces comes with the, the material that we use, the creativity with the manufacturing techniques, the craftsmanship, the fine stone. We love being the first to do something to bring a new stone, a new fine stone, a new material, a new decoration, a new way to display complication. And we have a product team that is very much eager to always come with something super exclusive. And it's important to remind that more than half of the value of a timepiece come from the preciousness and the craftsmanship of all what's around the caliber, actually. And we pay extremely high attention on both sides. And Elon, you mentioned about this Mint night. We have the Night Tide also in the collection. They are all in very small, limited edition of only 18 pieces. But the level of craftsmanship you have on those dials, normally that's a timepiece that should be a six digit price tag. And we are, we are definitely not in this, in this, in this level. So here again, outstanding value for, for the, the money that we ask on those, on those timepieces.

B (46:01)

So if anybody's interested in trying on one of these watches and seeing exactly the kind of things that you get for those reasonable prices that you mentioned, where are they most likely to find an Arnold and Son? Where are your retailers and what events will you be showing at in the near future so people can come along and have a look?

A (46:18)

So in 2026, the main shows in we are always going to Doha where you have the watch and jewelry show, which is becoming really an institution in the Middle East. Watches and Wonders, of course, I mean, that will be our 6 participation of the brand of both brands at Watches and Wonders inside the main show at the Cannes Des Orlougers and then after the rest of the rest of 26 we are always participating to the CR in summer, in fall you have also watch time in New York. So we have really a variety of events that enable us to engage directly with our with the end customer from all over the world. And what we are also doing more and more is pushing for the experience of visiting our manufacturer, spending a full day with us, visit of the manufacturer, discovery of the collection, meeting with the design team, with the product team and having a very nice fondue lunch in the mountains around La Chaudfond where we have our manufacturer. So that's also another opportunity to meet, discover the pieces and otherwise. All our retailers are listed on our website, so if it's not in their inventory we also of course can organize to have the piece at their disposal for presentation.

B (48:02)

There you go. No excuse. If you want to see this brand in person, then either head along to a retailer or to one of those mentions that Pascal mentioned. Thank you for your time again. It was great to have you back on the show. One of our two time returning guests. Now this is brilliant. So we'll hopefully get you on for a third show sometime later in the year so we can hear the updates on both brands after you've had another, I hope, enjoyable fair season. If anyone has any questions for Pascal about either Arnold and Son or Angelus then please do get in touch with us. You can contact us via our official Instagram handle, that's herealtime show via our emails either Alon, Rob or David herealtime show. You can contact Scarlett via her Instagram profile, that's Carlintheshire S C A R L I N T H E S H I R E or you can contact us all via the contact form on the website www.therealtime.show. please like follow and subscribe and we'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.