Rob Nutts (5:47)

So you've had quite a background then. Just to summarize, this is an incredible list of brands to have worked with, an incredible amount of the industry to have seen as well. How does it feel now, after all those years working in different roles to be the figurehead of not one, but two brands? Is it a great deal of pressure? Is it something you welcome? Is it as you imagined it would be when you were looking to get back closer to the product?

Pascal Beshu (6:11)

I would say the first thing, what I love in the marketing director position is the fact that I have really the feeling I can take advantage of all the experience I had in my previous roles. You definitely setting the tone, the direction and the speech for the brand together with the marketing team. You are also deeply involved in the product strategy together with the, with the talented, talented that we, that we have. And, and of course the, the commercial part remains I would say a good 50% of my job because I believe you, you must be close to your clients. You, you, you, you must feel the pace of the market. So what I love is that you have, I really feel that I can enjoy the, I mean, benefit from all the, and the fact that we have two brands to manage, Arnold and Angelus, that's quite refreshing I would say because you know, both brands have a similar, I would say positioning in the autologie world landscape. Meaning that we are appealing to same level of clientele, but both brands have very different histories and very different product offer that end up being very complementary one to the other. I mean we don't have like a commercial policy that says that a customer that goes with one brand but list the other one. And we have couple of examples that in the same city we have one client that will distribute one brand and another one will take care of the other brand. But it's true that most of the time retailers are considering both brands because they, they see them as an outstanding complement. And when you have pleasure working with a team, it's a good way to actually extend the relationship on the second brand.

Alomben Joseph (8:18)

You have an impressive track record. You've worked for mostly groups. This is the first Japanese group because Citizen Group owns both Angelus and Arnold. I can you share a bit of the differences and the similarities, benefits, disadvantages.

Pascal Beshu (8:37)

Yeah, so I've been working for a French group, for a Swiss group, for an American group and now a Japanese group. I would say what strikes me probably the most is the Japanese culture towards craftsmanship and the importance of long term strategy. Everything is about long term strategy and I think that's what we need to build luxury brands on the long term, especially very exclusive luxury brands. And the other part also that strikes me really from the Japanese management is the excellence in execution, meaning that you have a level of attention to details which is extremely high. And actually that's what we need in our industry. I mean it's all about precision, it's all about craftsmanship, it's all about product that will last for decades, for centuries, product that will go through generations. And it's really fitting into the Japanese culture.

Alomben Joseph (9:56)

Our dear friend Mils Echeding has been on the show several times. Technically a colleague of yours as Frederic Constant and indirectly Alpina are part of the Citizen group as well, we are actually amazed not only by this long term vision you've mentioned, also the rather non hands on management approach. Do they give you a lot of leeway to actually be an entrepreneur within the conformity of this big group?

Pascal Beshu (10:32)

I mean, of course that's a trust that you need to earn over time. I think with what we all demonstrated with the team in putting back both Angelus and Arnold Henson at the forefront of niche autology brands, we have, I would say, a lot of freedom in the development of the brand. We have full autonomy in the product design, in the product development. Of course, I see the management more as the guardians of the brands, making sure that we are not moving away from the historical territory of those brands. That everything we do, I mean, it fits really with the image of the brand and the history of the brand. And we have obviously a financial frame in which we have to work. But I would say inside that we have a lot of autonomy. And that's probably also another key difference between other groups that I've been working for.

Rob Nutts (11:43)

Pascal, you spoke about the quality of the execution that stands out to you, not just of the watches, but also of how the companies run. And that you at Angus are creating products that will last generations. But this is a brand that's already existed for generations and has a huge number of fans around the world, including my friend and former colleague B. Frenchy of Fratello and Chrono 24. But before we talk about the modern version of the brand, the interesting catalog structure that exists today, could you please, for the benefit of any of our listeners who don't know so much about Angelus, could you please give us a bit of history about the brand? When was it founded? What was its reason for being? What's it most famous for?

Pascal Beshu (12:26)

Sure, of course. So Angelus is a Swiss brand that has been founded in the Locke in 1891, but by three brothers, the brothers Stolz. And what's quite interesting is that Angelus was obviously known for its timepieces, but was also very much known as a caliber manufacturer that provided some calibers to a variety of brands of the watch industry. The brand is very much known for being extremely innovative, innovative in development of new calibers, really pushing the boundaries of watchmaking to new levels. And the brand specializes really in selected number of complications. The first one obviously is the chronograph. It starts even before the 20s, up to the 70s. I mean, Angelus is extremely well known for a variety of chronographs, very specialized also in calendar watchers, minute Repeaters, alarm watchers and long power reserve type calibers. So that's really the key specialties of the brand. You have a couple of iconic models that have been launched across the last century. First monopusher chronograph of the brand in. In 1925. You have the long power reserve movement in different variations, actually different shapes and size. Equipped in the 30s 40s brands like Tiffany, like your Panerai First Marinostroom chronograph prototype was equipped also by a chronograph from Angelus. And. And Angelus in 1942 also launched the Chrono Date, which is really an iconic chronograph from the brand. That was the first chronograph featuring a date and featuring after a full calendar. So that has been also an inspiration for the relaunch of our latest collections. The brand became dormant in the late 70s during the Quartz crisis. And the brand has been acquired by the manufacturer La Jo Pere, which is currently our parent company. In 2011, actually the positioning of the brand during the relaunch period. So acquisition in 2011, launch of the first new product in 2015 was ready to focus only on Tourbillon. On Tourbillon made of performance material with very, very unique calibers. Very impressive in terms of look, combining performance material like carbon, like carbon fiber, composite titanium, sometimes some touches of gold also on the piece. And actually the brand back in those days was really the window of the know how of the manufacturer Le Joux Paris. What we decided to do in 2022 was really to reconnect the brand with its glorious past. But still bridging the old clientele of Angelus that robbed all the people that you mentioned. Collectors of old Chrono dates from the 40s, the 50s and even pilot chronograph from late 50s and 60s. And also the customer of the new Angelus that have been buying into this new approach of impressive tourbillon with performance material. So that's how we came out with the new Chronodate. Made of titanium, of carbon, very modern design, but incorporating caliber has clearly the identity of the original chrono date from 1942. Point of date two very large register. And the font also that we call the font that we had on our. On our dials. And you have to understand that the Chrono date, actually how it was made in 1942 was a quite oversized chronograph for those years. The counters were oversized, so it's a bicompact layout. They were oversized also because it was to improve the legibility of the chronograph function back in the 40s. And that's something really, that is part of the DNA of this collection. And in 2023, what we've been doing with the brand was to connect further the brand to its glorious past by the introduction of the La Fabrique collection, where you are there really re edition of vintage models from the brand. So it could be like almost a replica of a model that existed in the archives of the brand. So, like the medical chronograph, that was the first chapter that we launched, which is really faithful to the original medical chronograph from 1962, or to take a bit of liberty in terms of creation of the design and creation of the complication, but still with codes that comes from the history of the brand. So, like the third chapter that we launched this year, which is the chronograph telemeter 37 millimeter. The case is directly inspired from a case from angelus from the 50s. The layout and the use of the telemeter scale is something that has been extremely used in the history of the brand. The monopusher in the first monopusher of the brand has been made in 1925, so extremely early. So I would say in 2025 was making sense to. To highlight a monopusher also in the new collection. And the size 37 millimeter, I mean, that's a delight for vintage lovers.

Rob Nutts (19:08)

You talk about that case being designed to echo a case from the 1950s. It's very clear that La Fabrique collection, that family, is a nod to the past, whereas the Chronodate and the Flying Tourbillon families are very, very much looking to the future. Now, both of those collections, unless my eyes deceive me, share the same case design. And I asked myself, was this a strategic decision to minimize developmental costs and maximize options across two families, or was it more of a deliberate esthetic choice to really hammer home the departure of the modern Angelus, to take it away from what you've now revisited with the Telemetre in the La Fabrique range. What was the thinking behind it?

Pascal Beshu (19:53)

No, I think the thinking behind it was really to bring back some good understanding of the structure of our collection to our clients. We make no economies of scale on sharing a similar design of case between Tourbillon or between the Chronodate, because actually the two, the two case, since they are integrating different movements and different functions, are not the same. So, no, it was really to bridge actually the aesthetic of the Tourbillon with the Chronodate that even though it's two different complications, you really feel part that you are in one family, which is the modern Angelus, which is working well, I would say, in selected countries where the brand has been continuously worked over the last decade. And the La Fabrique is really here more to bridge to this clientele of lovers of vintage Angelus and actually to match those two customers of the brand into one single community. And it's interesting to see now that you have customer that joined the brand maybe with La Fabrique or with the Chronodate, that now purchase pieces from the other collections.

Rob Nutts (21:32)

That's very interesting. You kind of guessed my next question there. Cause I was looking at the Chrono Dayton flying Tourbillon and thinking, well, they're miles away from all of the old pieces that Balaz used to show me when I'd visit him. He used to get his watch rollout and he's got so many old Angelus because they were, I believe, associated with the Hungarian Air Force. Yes, on point. And he's Hungarian, unsurprisingly. So he adores these watches. He has so many of them. And when I've been to stores in Budapest, there's a lot of great examples still kicking around the capital city there. And I adore that style. And I was thinking, while the new Chronodate and, okay, let's just wrap the flying Tourbillon into the Chronodate collection for the sake of discussion. So when I'm referring to the Chronodate, I'm referring to both these two ultra modern pieces. The new Chronodate is completely different. It's a chunky, aggressively styled chronograph with like, really like striking, high contrast, legible dial designs with a great layout. I have always loved it. In fact, I must say, and I'm not just saying this because you're on the show, but it's one of those watches that I wear and I think, you know, if I ever made it a lot of money, this is, this is maybe the sort of piece that I would buy as my only watch. Chronographs are my favorite complication. I love the history of Angelus. I really, really love that model. But it is a million miles away from those beautiful little pilot chronographs that Balaj always used to show me. So I was wondering to myself, how does it work now with the, the modern sales demographics? Do you find that people have previously collected the old pieces like Balaj gravitate towards La Fabrique collection because they're more like what they had, or do they go for the chronidate because it's something new and they like the continuation of the brand? Do these new models attract people to the brand that would never have looked at Angelus twice prior to them, or do they tend to come for the La Fabrique and pick up on the heritage vibes? What's the customer feedback like on these models?

Pascal Beshu (23:23)

Since we started the relaunch with the new chrono date, first of all, everyone was extremely happy that finally you had a chronograph back in the collection of. Of Angelus. It attracts a lot of people that didn't know much about the brand, but really loved the design of the piece that looks very unique and you have actually a lot of content, not only with a beautiful movement which is decorated in a very modern way, but also the. The complexity of the construction of the case, the playful bracelet and straps that you can have on this piece, the very contrasting colors of dials. I mean, all this, you know, was. And of course, the history behind the Chronodata. I mean, still that it's a timepiece, a modern timepiece that relates to an historical timepiece that was a milestone in the story of the brand. But since we started to launch the La Fabrique, we definitely entered a new world for the brand. And I believe we captured the attraction of even a much wider audience. The interest on the brand is getting higher and higher. We have the advantage of. Of working with a couple of beautiful in house movements in our collection, especially with the La Fabrique, with this monopoucher chronograph, which is actually originally the tha chronograph that has been created by Journe and his friend for the Cartier torture Monopouche conigrasses in the 90s. So that's a beautiful chronograph with an outstanding pedigree. And it matches with a brand which was the specialist for chronograph over several decades in the last century. So all this is appealing very much to collectors. I think we worked a lot on the chronograph because that was the first natural complications to work with. If I can give you a hint of what would be coming next, is that we will complement the collection with new complications that made also the glory days of Angelus. In the future.

Alomben Joseph (26:03)

I would like to talk about Le Juupere.

Pascal Beshu (26:06)

Yes.

Alomben Joseph (26:07)

And the topic of manufacturer. There are people that are saying Angelus is not really manufacture because it's all La joupre. What would you reply to those people that Say that.

Pascal Beshu (26:22)

Well, what I would reply, first of all is that, I mean, technically manufacturer La Joupire, Angelus and Arnold Henson are the same company. So actually you cannot make things clutter. We are in the same building. We are working daily with all the teams. We have people at the manufacturer fully dedicated to working on our brands. In terms of caliber, we provide to our clients exclusive calibers that have been designed, developed, manufactured, decorated, assembled, cased, controlled in house. And every components has been made in the manufacture. I would say, yeah, probably 98% of the components are made in the manufacturer except the, the spirals. So I mean, if we cannot claim that we are a manufacturer, I mean, who can?

Rob Nutts (27:42)

You know, that's a really good question because what is the difference, practically speaking, between the relationship between Angelus, Arnold and Son and Le Joux Perret and the relationship between any Swatch Group, brand and eta? I mean, we have know how that is shared within these institutions. How can we just, how can we separate those things? You know, when you're talking about an independent watchmaker making everything from start to finish, good luck finding one. Yeah, but those that do as much as they possibly can on their own. Let's take for example Roger Smith on his own over in the Isle of Man. Simply. I've chosen him simply because he's isolated on the Isle of Man. He's entirely alone. There's a sea around him. So he'll still get some components shipped in from somewhere else. The vast majority of the work they do is done on site. Fair enough. But apart from those very few artisans that produce an extremely small number of watches a year, everybody in the street is collaborating and sharing components. And from my perspective, the fact that Angelus, Arnold and Son and Lizzie Perret are basically in the same building means you're probably more in house than most people claiming to be in house. Why do you think the perception is so different? Why does the Swatch Group and other major groups, Swiss groups, as it were, or French groups get a pass in that way?

Pascal Beshu (29:07)

I think lots of people do not realize that most of the calibers from Omega actually are made by eta, that Blancpain is more or less the movement manufacturer of the, of the luxury segment of the Swatch group that also Richemont has a lot of integration of movement manufacturing capacities. I think people maybe don't realize that. And as there are large companies that people take for granted that they are big enough to have everything fully made in house, actually it's made in house. There are groups and the synergies that are made, but they are not necessarily producing everything in a fully verticalized way.

Rob Nutts (30:05)

Do you think there's a communication advantage to stepping away from the whole in house manufacture terminology? Of course, it's been done many times in the last 10 years as people have tried myriad different ways to get people to buy their watches. But people seem to want two things simultaneously. They want the artisanship, they want the craft. They want the tradition of someone, a single solo watchmaker, hunched over a bench with a file in their hands, making every component by candlelight. And similarly, they want to know that when they spend thousands of francs or euros or dollars or pounds on a watch, that they're going to be able to get it fixed in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time, even if the company goes out of business. Now, if I were an independent watchmaker and I were making my watches myself by hand, I could very much expect to be the darling of the industry. But I could also expect that those questions would arise. Whereas if I were using components or entirely made movements by the Jupiter, I would happily point to that as a reason to buy this watch. Because Le Juupure is not going anywhere. Le Juupure is a stronger and more stable institution itself than any of the brands it would serve, I would say because of the importance of it to brands external to the group. What do you think about that? Do you think that it's a line that you're trying to walk between saying, okay, this is a reliable calibre made by a known maker that is very deeply rooted in the industry, but it's also our thing and only our thing, or do you think that you really want to separate yourselves from the Lejou? Pere conversation and be like, no, Angelus is doing its own thing entirely. What do you think is more important?

Pascal Beshu (31:47)

No, I mean, we are working in full transparency and people know in the industry that actually our manufacturer, who's on one hand the manufacturer of both brands, but on the other hand supplying many other companies, we are fully transparent on that. And it's normal, because we have 140 people working at the manufacturer, and with the volume that we make with the two brands, it would be impossible to sustain such an infrastructure of movement manufacturing. And the benefit of having the manufacturer selling many movements to to other brands on the industry, is finally benefiting actually our brands to be able to have an outstanding manufacturer know how with all the key manufacturing methods for calibers that are in house, it gives us also the opportunity to be also very creative in the product development. So we are fully transparent on that. And I think, Rob, you pointed also something quite important. It's the durability and the capacity of servicing timepieces on the long term. And when you have a fully integrated manufacturer, I mean definitely in many years we will be able to fully service the timepieces that have been purchased by by customer. If you purchase calibers from outside companies or have them modified by outside companies, or you still dependent of many other companies for key elements of the movement, you have the risk that maybe in 15, 20, 30 years time when you have maybe the company not working anymore or just they do not want to service you because it's too complicated for you, then you are in front of a very bad situation, in front of your end customer, and that's something you don't want to face.

Rob Nutts (34:14)

So I'm going to push this point a little bit further because I'm really curious about the potential advantages and disadvantages of not transparency versus non transparency, but aggressive transparency versus benign transparency, let's say. Now, I am not suggesting for a second that you're hiding or trying to conceal the fact that these movements are developed and created by Le Jupere because it's part of the same company and therefore kind of created by you as well. But I would say that you're not aggressively pushing that fact like it isn't positioned as a reason to buy. If people ask the question, absolutely, they will be able to find the answer and you will tell them the answer. But I wonder whether there could be an advantage to leading with that information rather than waiting for people to do their own research. Because if I go on, for example, if I go on the website and I go on the manufacturer and I look at the calibers and you've got a list of seven calibers there like the A251, A250, A150, A300, A500 Gold, A500 Titanium, A5, 5000. And then there's the A310 actually also. But without an image, if I go there and I click on them, I don't see the name Lejeux Paree anywhere. I see what the movements are, where you know, what specs they have. And they're gorgeous, unequivocally gorgeous, there's no reason why I would be put off knowing that this is not just a beautiful movement made exclusively to the specs for Angelus, but also by a maker that I think has as much credibility as any other when it comes to making movements. I wouldn't see that if I just went on those went on those pages. So do you think it could be something you might explore in the future or is it something that you really want to just keep available for the knowledge of people that know to ask the question?

Pascal Beshu (36:03)

No. I mean, when we are meeting clients, we speak very openly about about the manufacturer, La Joupire as the model company. When we have clients visiting the manufacturer, we are obviously making the visit of our premise, but also the global. We explain all what is made within the manufacturer. So the autorie, the volume, mechanical movement and even the solar quartz, which obviously the last two parts have nothing to do with the work the manufacturer is doing for Arnold and Son and Angelus. But in terms of product identity, we don't have our movement signed by manufacturer because we are working with exclusive movement and exclusive execution of movements for each of our brands. So that's really Calibre's name by the brand itself. And it's not a La Joupere reference that you have on the movement. It's an Angelus and it's an Arnold and Son movement. And they are exclusive to our brand.

Alomben Joseph (37:22)

Let's reverse the story. So La Joupre has his own CEO, don't they?

Pascal Beshu (37:27)

Yes. Jean Claude. Yes.

Alomben Joseph (37:29)

How do you help him or them? Because the funny thing is Frederic Constant only recently started using the G100 caliber in the Frederic Constant watches, which surprised me after so many years of being part of the same group. Obviously they're not as integrated as you guys are because the two watch brands.

Pascal Beshu (37:52)

Are owned by La Joupere.

Alomben Joseph (37:53)

How do you help La Joupere develop maybe the more mass produced calibers? Because the G100 is actually getting a lot of traction. I believe the last three, four years more and more brands are using them.

Pascal Beshu (38:05)

Yeah, that's correct. Actually, the reason why maybe Frederic Constant was not using the G100 for, I mean, the last 18 months, it's actually that the movement was not existing before at the same time as both brands, Arnold and Son and Angelus have been relaunched since 2020. At the same moment, a new CEO has been named to head the manufacture and also to completely relaunch the business of the manufacturer. And that's when those three pillars have been defined. Autorlogerie pillar, volume, mechanical with the G100 and the solar Quartz with the first client being Tag Heer. And now you have Tiffany also that launched their second model with the same movement. And there will be more brands using this amazing movement in the future. So I think it makes sense on the group level that actually there will be even more synergy So I would not be surprised that Frederic Constant in the future would be using more of the offering from La Joux Perret. And at the same moment, at the same time, I think both brands, Arnold and Son and Angelus getting also more visible and established as niche brands of reference. It's an outstanding publicity also for the manufacturer. It's a demonstration of the knowledge of the manufacturer and we definitely see that over the last few years. I think the success of both brands has been driving also interest from. From. From brands for the. The calibers made by the. By the. By the manufacturer.

Alomben Joseph (40:02)

I'm at the crossroad where I can go on for another hour. I know you're very busy and I hope you'll come back on the show very soon because we want to do a dedicated episode for Arc Arnold the Sun and we can touch upon the group dynamics again. I want to gear back to Angelus, if I may. I'm as well a huge fan. I've always loved the chrono date family and I agree with Rob. The flying tourbillon is part of the chrono date case family. And when the monopusher central second chronograph came out, so you guys called it the instrument the fittest. I fell off my chair. Rob was sitting next to me at Geneva Watches. We're sitting outside on the balcony in a beautiful summer day that really, really made me fall in love. And there are not many brands that can do that duality game. The heritage brands that are that old that could do both the retro inspired models and the contemporary models. And one that I think of is Zenith that does that as well very well. So I just wanted to put that out there. Now my question to you is, did the collabs put you back on the map? Because what am I recalling? That beautiful rectangular bateau to be on with Alain Schuberstein. And I'm thinking of the chronograph medical with Messina Lab did. How instrumental were these collabs? And will you do more in the future?

Pascal Beshu (41:35)

I think if we talk about Anas Silberstein. This was not a strategic launch for us. It was an encounter between him, the team and actually he always loved the original timepiece. That was the U10. That was the first chronograph, sorry, the first tourbillon that launched in 2015. That was the first timepiece of the relaunch with the very amazing concept of really taking the tourbillon out of the case. So it's like you have a human, you have a body and you have the hurt, the heart that is beating outside of the body. That was really the full concept. And that's something that spoke that Alain Silberstein understood very well, that he loved. And he said, okay, let's take this beautiful movement, but let's revamp it 10 years after with new design codes inspired by Bohos, always with Alain. And actually this, you had a limited edition of eight pieces that has been made and they all went out extremely, extremely quickly. And. And you're right to say that finally, I think it's the buzz around the launch of this piece help to remind the knowledge of Angelus for doing Modern Tourbillon. That's very clear. The work that we've made with William with Massena Lab is completely different. He's been instrumental in the birth of the La Fabrique collection. That's something we always had in the back of our mind to relaunch neo vintage or vintage inspired timepieces with the La Fabrique collection. And really the work with William was extremely knowledgeable about the history of watchmaking. That has an outstanding taste that also is in direct connection with collectors. We've been really co creating this medical chronograph and the amazing success we had with this collection pushed us to come with new timepieces and has been really setting the help us to shape the strategy of the brand for the future. And I think now we have really very clear idea of where we want to go with the brand, where we want to go between the three pillars of the modern Tourbillon, Modern Chronograph and the La Fabrique. The last point, actually is the fact that we will have also other collapse that will come in the future. But collapse, you know, it's not for the sake of collaboration. You must have a meaning. It must be rooted to the DNA of the brand. It must make sense. And we are always extremely cautious. You have collabs where you have winners and losers. And what we want to do is always win, win, collapse, you know, And I think so far that's what we managed to do. And we have some projects cooking for the second semester.

Alomben Joseph (45:17)

We have a sound bite there. We want win, win collabs. I love it. Thank you so much, Pascal.

Rob Nutts (45:24)

Yeah, that's definitely good to hear. And something we can't wait to see. We can't wait to see the new novelties. And yeah, we love a win win collab as well, you know. Pascal, thank you so much for this episode talking about Angelus. We'll get you back on the mic soon to talk about Arnold and Son more specifically, but this one was a really enlightening episode. Thank you for your transparency, for the generosity of your time. I really appreciate it and I'm sure our audience will. If anyone listening to this show has questions for Pascal, anything about Angela, please do get in touch either with the brand directly or with us via our official Instagram handle. That's at therealtime Show. You can contact Alon, David or me via our email addresses. That's either Rob Alon or David therealtime Show. You can contact Scarlett via her Instagram handle. That's Carlintheshire. That's S C A R L I N T H e N S H I R E or of course via the contact form on the website www.thealtime show. We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's innovators. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.

Pascal Beshu (46:34)

SA.