Pragma's Christopher Wegener Shares His Passion For Design With Alon And Rob

Summary

The Real Time Show: Pragma's Christopher Wegener Shares His Passion For Design

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Real Time Show
• Hosts: Rob Nudds & Alon Ben Joseph
• Episode Title: Pragma's Christopher Wegener Shares His Passion For Design With Alon And Rob
• Release Date: March 23, 2025

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1. Introduction to Christopher Wegener

The episode kicks off with Rob Nudds introducing Christopher Wegener, lauding him as a "hidden gem in the watchmaking industry" (00:06). Christopher, a 36-year-old Swiss native from Biel—a renowned watchmaking hub—shares a bit about his multicultural background and personal life. He mentions his German father, Brazilian mother, a loving wife, and a young son named Jude. Beyond watchmaking, Christopher has a deep passion for art, gastronomy, and wine, illustrating his multifaceted interests (02:23).

2. Journey Into Watchmaking

Christopher recounts his early foray into watchmaking at age 14. Faced with choosing between academic or practical studies, he opted for a dual apprenticeship at Rolex, balancing hands-on work with formal watchmaking education. This experience cemented his desire to create his own brand. Over the past two decades, his career path has included pivotal roles at François-Paul Journe, Laurent Ferrier, Manufacture Horlogère Chloé (MHC), and leadership at the Norwegian brand Al Flea. These roles honed his expertise in high complications and craftsmanship (04:45; 05:26).

3. Founding Pragma Watches

Pragma Watches was born from Christopher's and his associate’s shared vision to innovate beyond traditional watchmaking norms. Unlike many brands that use family names, Pragma—a nod to pragmatism and forward-thinking—embodies values like transparency, sustainability, and Swiss craftsmanship. Christopher explains, “Pragma was this dream to build this, this dream watch that's pragmatic. It’s about transparency, 100% Swiss made craftmanship, sustainability” (10:15).

He further elaborates on meeting his associate, a talented industrial designer from Ekal near Lausanne, whose fresh perspective from outside the traditional watchmaking bubble fueled their collaborative creativity (11:09).

4. Design Philosophy and Innovation

Pragma’s design ethos centers on creating a distinctive language that resonates with modern aesthetics while ensuring functionality. Christopher emphasizes the importance of readability and a classic yet futuristic appearance. “I want to be easy to read,” he states, highlighting the significance of a well-designed dial. The collaboration between Christopher and his designer associate focused on integrating unique elements like the intermediate bezel and experimenting with materials and finishes to create a minimalistic yet intricate timepiece (12:56; 16:58).

5. Luxury Redefined: Craftsmanship and Pricing

Addressing the concept of luxury, Christopher distinguishes between traditional perceptions and his brand’s approach. For him, luxury is defined by exceptional detail, superior materials, and craftsmanship. He critiques the current luxury market’s move towards high-volume production, questioning, “If you do 10,000 or 20,000 production items, is it still luxury?” (17:40).

Pragma positions itself in the high-end segment with an entry-level price point of approximately CHF 26,000. This pricing strategy is designed to balance accessibility with exclusivity, allowing Pragma to attract discerning collectors while maintaining quality. Christopher acknowledges that prices may increase as the brand grows but asserts the importance of an aggressive launch price to gain visibility and attract initial clientele (23:12; 28:42).

6. Sustainability and Transparency

A cornerstone of Pragma’s philosophy is sustainability. Christopher discusses the challenges of sourcing 100% recycled materials but emphasizes their commitment to transparency. “We are clear with the client we can do that for you... we have to be flexible,” he explains, highlighting the complexities involved in achieving full recyclability in precious metals like gold and platinum (34:09; 35:53).

Pragma distinguishes itself by openly sharing information about their supply chain and production processes, fostering trust and accountability within the luxury watch market. This transparency extends to their collaboration with other sustainable brands, reinforcing a community-driven approach (36:53).

7. Customer Engagement and Community Building

Christopher underscores the importance of building a community rather than just a customer base. By offering shareholders’ participation—such as obtaining 1% ownership with the purchase of specific models—Pragma fosters a sense of belonging and investment among its clientele. “We want to make the family of Pragma directly a bit bigger,” he states, aiming to create a close-knit community that shares the brand’s passion and values (31:43; 32:01).

8. Addressing Challenges and Future Plans

Pragma faces typical challenges of a burgeoning luxury brand, including production bottlenecks and the lengthy go-to-market process inherent in high-end watchmaking. Christopher candidly discusses the time-consuming nature of their operations, balancing in-house creativity with reliance on subcontractors. However, he remains optimistic about growth, aiming to expand production to 200-300 pieces and explore retail partnerships globally (48:44; 50:10).

Looking ahead, Pragma is already developing subsequent models, focusing on variations that maintain their minimalist aesthetic while introducing new materials and designs. Christopher hints at upcoming releases that will continue to push the boundaries of Pragma’s unique design language (46:55; 47:00).

9. Closing Thoughts and Future Collaborations

As the conversation winds down, both hosts express admiration for Pragma’s innovative approach and transparent business practices. Alon praises Pragma’s website for its modern and creative design, likening it to a creative agency’s online presence. Rob mentions potential future collaborations, highlighting efforts to connect with other sustainable brands and elevate industry standards (53:44; 54:51).

Christopher shares his excitement about Pragma’s participation in upcoming watch fairs and the anticipation of engaging more deeply with the global watch community. The episode concludes with an optimistic outlook for Pragma’s future and a promise of continued innovation and community engagement (55:53).

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Notable Quotes:

• Rob Nudds (00:06): "I have no idea where in the world he woke up today, so he'll tell us later. But I'm very excited to have a guest that is, I dare to call him a hidden gem in the watchmaking industry..."

• Christopher Wegener (02:23): "I have to admit, I did not pay enough attention [to Pragma Watches] because it really resonates with me, not only on a design level, but even more so on a sustainability and transparency level."

• Alon Ben Joseph (17:40): "Luxury was always something that is rare and it's unique... we have to speak about the craftsmanship behind."

• Christopher Wegener (34:09): "Gold, you might wear your gold watch and you have some gold... it's never disappearing and the same for platinum, it's always there."

• Christopher Wegener (32:01): "We said it's a good way for us to bring people inside the company. Also have some inputs with collectors. They can share what they think. It's a great help for the company and great value also."

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Conclusion

In this engaging episode of The Real Time Show, Christopher Wegener provides an in-depth look into the founding and philosophy of Pragma Watches. Emphasizing sustainability, transparency, and innovative design, Pragma aims to redefine luxury in the watchmaking industry. Through meticulous craftsmanship and a community-focused approach, Christopher and his team are set to make a significant impact, offering watch enthusiasts a unique blend of tradition and modernity.

For more insights and updates, visit Pragma Watches' website at PRAGMA-WATCHES.CH or connect with them through the show's contact channels.

Transcript

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Foreign.

[Rob Nudds]

Watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alo Ma Joseph, and our grand master, friendly neighborhood watchmaker Rob Nudds. And I have no idea where in the world he woke up today, so he'll tell us later. But I'm very excited to have a guest that is, I dare to call him a hidden gem in the watchmaking industry, but he's been hiding in plain sight. I'm referring to Christopher Wegener, the co founder of Pragma Watches and a watch brand that I have to admit, I did not pay enough attention to because it really resonates with me, not only on a design level, but even more so on a sustainability and transparency level. Welcome to the studio, Chris.

[Christopher Wegener]

Thanks a lot. Really happy to be here and thanks for your invitation. I'm really happy to share my journey with you and speak about my passion and I think it's also your passion too, so I'm really happy.

[Rob Nudds]

And Rob, where did you wake up in the world this morning?

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Well, I woke up in Copenhagen, which is probably not much of a surprise because that's where I have been waking up for most of the days over the past six months. But I had a, a mad dash of a week or two weeks beforehand visiting fears down in Bristol. So we've had, we've had fears over in Amsterdam, we've had me in the fears building itself down in Bristol, then going on a little explore of the Cotswolds, somewhere I'd never been before in my life before spending three days up in Glasgow, which was very enjoyable. Now I am back in my office, hiding from the world as usual and very excited to talk to Chris about Pragma because unlike you, Alon, not to cast any aspersions upon your diligence as a watch journalist, but I knew all about Pragma. I've been fascinated by them for quite some time. I love the case construction. I'm very much a fan of the sub dial at 12 o'clock, revealing the date in a very creative fashion. And I can't wait to hear more about the watches, their construction and the philosophy behind the company. So let's kick it over to Chris to take us on a whistle stop tour of his life and career and what led him to watchmaking and how we ended up with such a complex and intriguing watch like Pragma on our radars.

[Christopher Wegener]

Well, yes, it was a pleasure. I can perhaps introduce myself a bit. So my name is Christopher, I'm 36 years old. I'm born here in Switzerland in Biel, so actually watchmaking city too. Yeah. My father German, my mother's Brazilian and I grew up here near the lake of Geneva for all my life. I have a bigger sister and today I'm married to my wife and I have a young son called Jude. I'm quite a happy and friendly person. I think I love to spending time with my friends, my family. I'm not only passionate about watchmaking, I, I deep love also for art and gastronomy and, and wine. Basically what I like to do in my spare time and sharing that with my friend and, and family. So all the wine on the, on more professional side. So I start looking at watchmaking and the watch industry. I was 14 years old because in Switzerland when you are 14 you basically had to choose between more university studies or more practical work. And I was looking a lot what will be the, the perfect match for, for, for my professional life. And yeah, I have the opportunity to, to do a discovering day at Patek Philippe. And I think yeah, after two or three hours I knew that, that it was the job I want to do. It was no doubt about it. And yeah, it start like that. So now 20 more than 20 years and it's definitely the one of the best choice I made in my life. No regrets.

[Rob Nudds]

So yeah, congrats on the fatherhood.

[Christopher Wegener]

Thanks.

[Rob Nudds]

And thank you for the modesty because that spark you found at Patek Philippe so sparked a big fire. Another little candle. Because if I look at your resume, walk us through starting as a watchmaker at Journe, jumping to Laurent Fourier, then spending many years at manufacture rote or complications and being a master watchmaker, a trainer and now ramping up to pragma. You also helped out another brand called Alf Le or Lye. So walk us through these important stepping stones in your career.

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, it was pleasure. Yeah. At 15 I was engaged at Rolex. So doing we call that dual apprenticeship. So you half of the week you are working at Rolex in different kind of workshop and the, the rest of the week you are at school, watchmaking school. So to have more clerical information and studies. So yeah, I had done that for four years and by the end of the apprenticeship I definitely knew that in one day I want to create my own brand. But I quickly see that it's a bit difficult to do too young. You really need to master a lot of other aspect of the work. So at the time, I think it was 2007, I really discovered Francois Peugeot and his design and of course his movement. But the Design of the piece was so incredible for me. So it was basically a dream to go there to work for him. So I started there working for the first piece. It was Chronomet Souvran, Chronobleu Octa. And yeah, my dream was to do the resonance. And after I think three years I go to the resonance workshop and have done that for three years. It was such a great piece to work on. We loved it. And after one day and after another I saw I can also work for Laurent Ferrier. I really like the piece. I want to go there to work with them. And I had done a one year only there and I was working with also Oliver Muller as a CEO. It was really nice to work with him. And I had the opportunity to go to MHC because my quest at this time was always to try to work a maximum of big big complication. So I knew that Francois Paul Jones at this time I couldn't be able to do the tourbillon. So my goal was to doing tourbillon and minute repeater and more complex. So that's why I always try to look for other brand to continue my quest of learning and maximum of complication. And when I start with MHC at the time. So MHC was a subcontractor company. We work for so many different kind of brands going from Chaco Manco to Bellen Ross to Girard Perrego or Graph. I'm forgetting some brand of course. And this was a company was really dedicated to build tourbillon tourbillon 2ax3ax, military vitor. And so yeah, the was the opportunity for me to work on this really high complicated watch. And it was great to see also in one company you work for so many brands. You can see how brands work. Different type of quality. What, what what different storytelling, which brand want to put in. In. In forward. So it's really nice to. To. To see all that in. In the same place. And yeah, I worked there for seven years and after I had the opportunity to lead this brand called Al Flea, so Norwegian brand. That was really nice because at that time I really want to be also more in a creative watchmaking. Also be at. Be able to create collection. Think about it, build from the beginning to the end, the design and everything. It was also a great opportunity for me to really build my career and my skills that bring me basically to pragma and this really great project I have built with my associates. So yeah, it's been the past I was following for the last 20 years.

[Rob Nudds]

Touching upon Pragma for our dear listeners that want to have a visual support. The website is P R A GMA dash watches Ch the name, if my knowledge of the old languages, it means a thing done or a fact or as we use the word pragmatic. Is that the meaning of the brand?

[Christopher Wegener]

It's really hard when. Because you know in the watchmaking you're always the same. Usually the old way was you're using your name, your family name and you create the brand like this. And with my associate we want to really look to the future and creating a brand name that it's basically not mine or my associates. So Pagma was this dream to build this, this dream watch that's pragmatic. It's really basically having inside everything, every value that we want to explain or share with the public. So transparency, 100% Swiss made craftsmanshift sustainability. So it was the pragmatic way to choose this name. So yeah, basically it's. That's the idea.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Where did you meet your associates?

[Christopher Wegener]

I was introduced to him. He was doing design school here in Switzerland. It's a really great school called Ekal near Lausanne. His dream when he arrived in Switzerland was really to do industrial design, to be able to create in the future brand. So I met him, he went to MHC at the time with a design prototype of a new way to showcase hour and minute with a nice moon in the middle. It was really impressive because it's not from the watchmaking industry and I was really happy to meet somebody that's not. I have nothing against it, but not a watch designer coming from watchmaking because you think a bit differently. You know, when you are watchmaker or designer dedicated to watchmaking, you're always thinking in this bubble and he's really thinking differently and I find it's so creative and great. And yeah, his dream was to build a watch brand and me too. And since that we always speak together and try to make it happen. So long way to get there, but we are here now.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

So when you first decided you were going to start a brand together and that brand was going to be pragma, what came first in the development of the watch and the brand? Was it the idea for the watch as a physical product? Because it's quite a striking product. I could see it itching away at somebody desperate to design that specific watch. Or was it the brand itself and the concepts behind it that informed the design of the watch over time?

[Christopher Wegener]

No, it was really him and I, we want to have a design language that is strong, that we really want that we can directly see that it's a pragma. So everything was how we can create something that it's our own language and with his own identity that's really important. But in the same times we also both have love for the basically same thing. I'm the kind of guy that like to read time on my watch and not on my iPhone. So I really love to read time on my watch. So I want to be easy to read too. It's important for me and I love this kind of watch with also lugs. So we still want to have something that it's classic watch but with our own interpretation. Looking into the future and not looking to the past. I think it's a big trend today, always vintage watch or reviving old brands. And we do the same design as before. And for us, Pagma, it's really about creating our watch with the vision turning to the future and not to the back. Of course we have to take all the craftsmanshift, all the knowledge that it's a old craft. But we want really to focus to the future. So the design was really the first stone and after we put inside our value and how we can make it so it was more this way we create the pragmatic.

[Rob Nudds]

So, Chris, why do you think the watch industry or the world needs another watch brand and. And not just a watch brand. It's at a very high level. I dare even to almost call it hotel luxury.

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, it's a. It's a market with a lot of competitor. I don't know if I can be the judge of that. But I really want with Kai to have this what we are dreaming and we want to make it real and to share it to the public. I think it was something that we observed that today watchmaking is sadly sometimes really opaque. And not only watchmaking, actually industry, luxury, big time in luxury. It's quite transparency. It's something that it's not in the front of the concern of the companies. So for us it was to bring this open eyes also to that. And we wanted to make the best auton luxury watch with this design and also open the eyes to. To the. To the fact that we can be transparent, we can show the process, we can speak about who's doing what. We can prove that our watch is 100 Swiss made. Because sadly it's not always the case. But it's also the law, it's how it is. 60% of the value of the watch has to be done in Switzerland that give you the right to Put it the Swiss made. And so no, for us, we have this incredible industry in Switzerland. It's hundreds years old and we want to work with them to share the passionate people that build it building with us. And I think it was the start of the project and hopefully we can also find the community we're looking for and the public that is also sensitive about that.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

I've got a couple of questions I want to pick up from what you just said that I'm not sure which way to go around with this line of questioning. But let's start with this one because it's maybe easy, maybe a deep dive might take us another 45 minutes and be the end of the show. Who knows? You mentioned luxury and the industry and the problems with it. But what is luxury to you Now? You've made a watch there that as an item. To me it looks extremely luxurious. The price would suggest it is a luxury that few could afford. But the brand is completely new, so it doesn't have the immediate status or heritage that a brand like Patek or Audemars or Rolex or Vacheron might have in the minds of most luxury buyers. So what do you see as luxury and how does that pertain to the brand? Pragma.

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, but luxury, it's. It's. For me the, the work on the details. Everything has to be the best possible finishing the best, the best material we use. It has to be everything about the best standard that we have in the luxury and the watchmaking field. I want to, I study with that, I work with that all my life. For me, I can imagine doing something else than this kind of. This kind of watch because it's. I think if you are passionate about watchmaking, it's everything about this kind of details, the thinking, the small production too. So that's about the luxury. But I think luxury, it's complex because I think the spec of luxury really change you have. Luxury was always something that is rare and it's unique. I don't know if we speak to Big group now. It's also sometimes sadly luxury on the name. But it's high volume, big production. We talking about 10,000 or 20,000 production item, is it still luxury? So I think the vision of luxury move a bit. So I think that's why also we have opening here to create real luxury, rare, unique and speak about the craftsmanship behind. If you do 10,000 items of the same product, is it still luxury? That's definitely something that we can speak about for an hour.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

I really like that response I like the fact that you're openly focused on the product and the craftsmanship, the creation of it. The product's nature defines its luxury more than any fluff that could be built around it. And I think a lot of the luxury industries problems perhaps these days in terms of a broader perception by people that aren't in it and people that don't aspire to it is the fluff that brands like Rolex or like Patek will push out there to continue to perpetuate the idea of status and, and. And grandeur in the face of actually making a product that people want or can get really excited about. Especially not watch fans. What do you think about the luxury experience? Now pragma is obviously new to the industry but the guys behind it, you're you, you and your associates are not, you're very experienced yourselves. So how are you going to bring your customers not just on board for a purchase but how are you going to make them part of a family long term? How are you going to make them feel like they have made the right decision in investing some serious change in. In pragma?

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, that's a question really interesting because I speak about that with so many friend of mine also some of my first client and they say it's crazy because you can go buy a famous, famous watch in with a crown and don't want to put the name but you buy it and you don't have any news from them and it's still a big buy for some people. It's the only watch they buy in the life and you don't get more than, than our wishing card. And thanks when you buy this kind of watch. For me everything is about the, the human aspect here to you know this kind of. When we do this kind of watch I want to, I want to know my client. I want to, to. To.

[Rob Nudds]

To.

[Christopher Wegener]

To. To share with them. I want to share the passion together. So customer service it's a bit the same when we speak about before luxury because of course if you do 10,000 item of the same products you can really be there for your clients. You can share something with them. You have so many clients and I think something that's disappear and I think people turning a bit around also this way to new brand because it's not only about having a nice product at home, it's also feel the community share with them, meeting them, enjoying times and yeah basically I think people want to have that in their life and I think it's the good way and the easy stuff about doing Watches and building a community because I'm so happy to meet the people that have the same passion than me and enjoying good time together. You can perhaps not liking my product or you prefer something else, but at the end we all passionate about the same. So that's, that's really great.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Well, personally, I really do like your products. My, my favorite one is the purple dial. I think it's an extremely subtle and very sensitively selected shade of purple and kudos for that, for having that chromatic sensibility. My question next. My next question is going to take us in a hopefully not uncomfortable route, but something that I think will be useful for the audience to understand what kind of brand you are building with Pragma. So this purple watch, what's its price point roughly? I know that they move a little bit due to material costs, but we're talking how much?

[Christopher Wegener]

26K Swiss francs.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Am I right in thinking that's the entry level?

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, that's definitely the entry level. It must be the best price for quality you can find because it's really hard to put a prime on the watch. And I can say it's also a launching price because small volume, it's high quality. We're using hard material to use in it like titanium for the movement. The dial is made by Comblain and the case also is made by Voutilanen Qatar. So we also choosing here the, the. The. The. The best subcontractor we can find to also have the best quality. Everything is made by. With care in small production volume. And, and I will say the next step, if you want to do everything by hand, if you want to do a watch that's 100% made by hand, it's also the, the price go up three times or four times this kind of price. And for us it was not the purpose of Pragma to do handmade watches. We still want to have the best product hand finished, still using modern CNC to really have the best precision because I think it's really important and the best quality at the end on the product.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

So I'm going to pick up on the pricing aspect in a moment because I find that interesting as a fledgling brand deciding where to pitch your extremely well made products. But just to continue on the original train of thought that I was running through, given the price point, what kind of volumes are you hoping to sell? You don't have to tell me exactly how many you've sold or how many you hoping to sell this year. But ultimately as a brand of Pragma's Stature with a product of that level. How big do you envisage this family.

[Christopher Wegener]

Being year on year for the first serie? Here we, we, we start with a production of a 50 piece. It's basically a bit of the minimum you can order when you, when you start to, to create your own movement. So it's our French we say in ebo so it's really our platin and bridge. So you have to go for this kind of serie if you want to start the minimum order of quantity. And I think for us to really be creative and create collection and also grow in the good way, I hope to, to do 200 or 300 piece in the future. I think it's a good way also to be able to connect and to work with retail because if you don't, it's too complicated to have piece also around the world because if you do 20 watch a year, basically you have all your piece that is blocked on different kind of market.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

So.

[Christopher Wegener]

So it's what I want to do at what we dream for pragma.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Okay, so that's interesting. So you have the idea of retailers in your future and you also alluded earlier that the price is a launch price and will likely go up. I guess it'll have to if you want to expand in the retail network. Because I'm assuming that being a kind hearted soul and somebody that wants to give back to the industry that you've priced this watch quite aggressively. Because even though 26,000 or ballpark is a lot of money for well I would say probably the vast majority of people in the world, it certainly would be for me what you've created there using the partners that you have in the manufacturer of the case and the dial. And looking at that movement, of course it's nothing about this watch has come cheap. It seems like a very reasonable price. And we Alon and I, that is, have been very fortunate to be behind the scenes when some of the more visible, very high end brands have been in the stages of foundation, when people have been deciding what to charge for the watch. And there's always a tendency to try and make watches good value. But at this price point, when you're in the ultra expensive sphere, I'm not sure that that is as important as it is when you're in a 500 to €1,000 bracket, for example. I think if you're down there where price is a reason why people buy your watches, then what you price your watches at is existentially important. But here I think you guys, your artists, your creators Your visionaries, your leaders, this area, this echelon of the industry perhaps doesn't need to be so concerned about charging, you know, what's 10 grand between friends, let's put it that way. If it's 26 or 36, is somebody that has the kind of money that they'd need to buy the watch at the cheaper price not going to be able to buy it at the higher price? I, I find that an interesting conversation. I'm sure that everybody in the brand and surrounding the brand has had that conversation with you a thousand times already. But what are your thoughts on it? Do you think that it's most important for a brand, even in your price point to remain aggressive? Or do you think. And price it competitively or do you think that. Yes, actually in the long term the customers that we want will pay what we charge?

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, at the beginning we really want to have an aggressive price also to bring our first client. I think it's important when you're a young brand to be, to be aggressive in a way to also have some attraction on you. Before I remember perhaps 15 years ago all the young brand launching was making tourbillon and you know that you don't sell too much tourbillon but you can really put a high price. You can really have great margin on this kind of project. It was, yeah, it was not our id. It's also hard because we, we want to do a, let's say simple watch for start hour and minute. Basically this kind of watch that people wear a daily basis. So we really want to have a maximum of people looking at us and to buy our watch to put pragma in the visibility and people discovering it this way. But of course we need to. The price will go up with the time and yeah, it's difficult to say in a better way where are you.

[Rob Nudds]

Today in the process of building A the company B the brand C the collection. So you're up and running. The website is running. Pre orders are taken. Are a any watches delivered already?

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, we have a lot of work because we working on all these aspects now we have a first prototype that it's finished. We keep it for us so we can use it for presentation. First part of the first collection will be ready I hope next week because so as perhaps you know we are. I will be present at time to watches in April here in, in Geneva with all this first collection and we also have on this first area half of it already pre order. So we waiting, waiting a lot for all the finished parts so I can Finish it here at the workshop. The first, let's say 10 pieces for the exhibition. So it's five years. I start this project in my head and with the team. So the. The waiting is really long now and we're really exciting to. To. To have everything on. On. On strap at the workshop to present it.

[Rob Nudds]

And I got very excited as an entrepreneur that it's possible to become a shareholder in Pragma because if you buy the gold watch you get 1% of the company and you're making 12 watches. So what made you decide to give away 12% of the company?

[Christopher Wegener]

When we look at the beginning and we think how can we build the finance? It's really expensive to do this kind of project. Basically put all the money I have and my associate too. We take a lot of risk. And so we said but it will be nice also to bring collector with us. I think a lot of people sometimes the. The. The passions they have for something they are so deep. So sometimes I also want to be inside a project. And like as I said before we. We like the human way to also share with people. That's something that is really really important for us. So we said it's a good way for us to bring people inside the company. Also have some inputs with collectors. They can share what they think. It's a great help for the company and great value also. And I think it's important to bring also other people into it. And I think it was also a fun way to make this watch in gold. With this unique dial that is only produced for this series and to be part at the beginning of project. I think it's also quite exciting. So it was both way to bring people to us and to make the family of Pragma directly a bit bigger. And I'm really happy about that.

[Rob Nudds]

What happens if I as a potential watch collector and or investor do not wear rose gold? Can I still become an investor?

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, yeah. We are not. If people don't like gold, we always okay with that. People ask us to make it in platinum and it's okay for that. So we adapt for the client.

[Rob Nudds]

Can you obtain 100% recycled platinum to make cases already?

[Christopher Wegener]

No, it was. That's something that really complex when we're speaking about gold, platinum or to all the. The precious metal. You should have your own foundry. So raffinry to to do it. I think the brand like Chopard Rolex they have the. The volume and the. The money to. To to do this kind of work. But you can source some platinum that it's not 100 but still a really good amount of sustainable also on a recycle and. And gold it's. It's a bit funny because gold you. You might wearing your gold watch and you have some. I don't know some gold in that was a. I don't know a Roman coin or this. The gold is never disappearing and the same for platinum, it's always there. So a lot of the. This. This precious metal are recycled anyways and people even don't know about it. And I think the three biggest rafinh in gold are in Switzerland. So. But it's still difficult to have 100%. But we are really the. Yeah like we said, transparency is the. The. The key also in the project. So we are clear with the client we can do that for you the goal but it. We not reaching the. The recycle sustainability we want and we have to be flexible also a bit on that. If it's the choice of the client we can discuss.

[Rob Nudds]

Frequent listeners of the show know that I'm a big fan of sustainability, especially in watchmaking. I'm proud to call Cedric Bellon, a dear friend, a great philosopher and I love what he's been doing with his watch band together Watch Angels. Therefore we already made two projects together. I'm a big fan of ID Geneve. All three gentlemen are friends of Rob and mine and we're actually trying to bring them together. So Ceriq Bellon with the boys and my De Geneve and now you guys really are also elevating the bar for competitors and colleagues to be more transparent, to be more sustainable. You actually indicate how sustainable your products are, who does what. I love how transparent you are that you indicate for every component who the producer is and what the level of sustainability is. Are you in contact with these two brands?

[Christopher Wegener]

Actually I contact Nicola. I really want to speak with him because I was excited to share my journey and understand also what they are doing. Really nice people. Great product too. Cedric Bellon? Not yet, but I spoke also with the CEO of Watch angel also I think it's interesting because even if we don't do the same volume or the same style of watchmaking, we're doing the same and we have a similar approach and I don't see any people in the. In the industry as a competitor. We all doing watches. People that buy watches are usually done by one, so they have multiple watch and so I think it's really nice to. To be able to go to see them, to speak openly. I have a good relationship with them and hopefully it's continuing in the future and it's really, really nice to see also a new generation of people perhaps. It's a way for us, it's important for us. So when we build something now, I think if you build something a company, you have to think about this kind of aspect. It's just natural. We can make it, we can make it with the same quality. So, yeah, it's important to change the mindset and also be more sustainable. Just makes sense.

[Rob Nudds]

So you were referring to Guido Benedini, dear friend of mine as well been on the show. He's the founder of Watch Angels. If you, Chris, want us to introduce you to Cedric Bellon or the gentleman from ID Geneve, please let us know. Our unofficial nickname we've been given in industry is being the black book of the watch industry. We connect loads of people behind the scenes. So whomever also listens and wants to elevate their sustainability game, please reach out both to Chris and or Rob and I. Now I dreamt of doing a fully recycled titanium watch. Took us three years to work on this project with Cedric bellon. End of 24, we managed to launch a collab on my retail operation side of things. Why did Pragma opt for using titanium and not just titanium, but recycled titanium for the components of your movement?

[Christopher Wegener]

Multiple reasons. First, I think it's a great material. It's light, it's something I like. Also, it's the material, you don't need to coat it. You know, it's only titanium and you're making a piece of it. I think it perhaps inspired me a lot when I was working for Francois Pajorn doing the gold bridge and platinum. You know, it's a gold piece. You don't have extra layer of odium or X or something else. You know, it's pure. It's also nice because you can retouch it. Usually if in an operation, you do a scratch or something, you have to take all the components out, take all the coating out, redo the decorations, send it back to coating. Also process. That is complex. I know also that doing some coating, it's basically not really sustainable. So we can have all the best of a product. So titanium is amanitic, not canoxidized, don't need to be coated. Slight strong. When you think about it, it's like just perfect material. It's more, of course, complex to use in it, but at the end it make a great, great piece. And that was really the goal of it. After we think, oh, we can also do full Titanium with the case also, not only the movement, perhaps also some piece of the dial. But yeah, we have to let some ID for the future collection and the other piece that is coming in the future. So yeah, it's really playful. We can have a lot of different variation of it. So it's great for the upcoming piece in the future.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Did you not find any issues with the jewels? I've always wondered about this with titanium because it's so much harder and more brittle than brass. Does jewel fitting, like friction fitting jewels, not cause any problems whatsoever?

[Christopher Wegener]

You have to use different kind of quotation. We say in French, I don't know about in English. So the hold has to be not the same if you using brass or gold. Because of course it's more. Not that it's really stronger, but that's something that you master when you always already have done titanium. Even before when I was working at imhc, we have done some minute repeater using titanium has the movement and by the way, it's really increased the quality of the sound. It's also fun. Titanium case and titanium movement bring a really nice sound to minute repeater. And so it's something that you have to, to do a bit more test to see how the the jewels fit in. If you're not sure at the beginning, sometimes you have some jewel that crack. But when you know the good precise quotation, you can do it quite easily.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Well, that's really good to hear actually. Very, very interesting also about the titanium resulting in a greater sound, a better resonance in the minute repeater. I think I'd heard that before, but it's great to have it confirmed because it's a nice little quirk. You wouldn't think it in some ways, would you? Because titanium is such a futuristic material and I always imagine minute repeaters to be the most archaic of all complications. But there you go, that's life. Tell me one thing about this 60% value added in Switzerland rule for Swiss made. What do you think about that? As someone that sounds like they do an awful lot of work, like genuine work in Switzerland, because all of us know that a lot of brands like to fudge those numbers somewhat and play around with how the value is added here, there and everywhere. So what do you think about that subject in general? What discussions have you had as a company on it and do you think that it's fair?

[Christopher Wegener]

I think we are quite proud to be Swiss and to have this Swiss made. And at the end, I think it's a bit sad for the label because when you Expect to buy something that is Swiss made. I can be naive, but I expect to have 100%. I don't know if you buy an apple and it's written agriculture, organic agriculture, you expect that the Apple is not 60% sustainable. You expect that it's really a durable product. So it's the same. I think for watch we really looked into label that do 100% we didn't find yet. I think it's also a big. It's political because I think bring a lot of job in Switzerland and the law is this way. I think it's already go to 50 to 60% but I hope in the future that can be going a bit up In a way it's not really fair for the brand that really take care to do 100% and some brands are not but still using the label. But who are we to change that? It's basically a big brand that are in control of that. I don't even know if there is a super cop that control everything into the company. I think it's not even possible. So it's a bit opaque. I think that's why we want to. It was a big concern. I want to change that and it's.

[Rob Nudds]

Important I want to circle back to retail. So when do you want to implement that distribution strategy of going into physical stores? Because if a consumer wants to obtain a pragma watch today, the only way is to send an email to you guys. Is that correct?

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, actually for the moment it's that to meet. We still want also to do some buy the watch directly on the website. But this kind of watches luxury watch. It's emotional. You need to see it in your hand. You want to share with people. So for the moment we still have to do that this way we don't have any choice. Of course we. We really want this year to do a bit of a world tour meeting some watch clubs around the world and do some multiple fair. We're starting here with time to watches and hopefully we can do more this year. But the idea is really already this year speak about with retail. We already engage a lot of them and we have meeting this year to see how we can in the future. Hopefully already next year having some peace in a selected retail around the world. So that's definitely our goal.

[Rob Nudds]

Are you already working on chapter two and if so what can you share please?

[Christopher Wegener]

Yes, we are already working on number two, three, four. That's really the. You know, we are creative, we're dreamers. So it's more how we can Canalize all this idea and what make more sense. But I think the next piece we we will do it's. It's basically the same case only perhaps no date and no second something more thin with more open dials. Also to be also creative and come with different kind of finishing and possibilities. Trying also new material but also classic used material. So it's still on progress. And we basically are cleaning the room now to choose the best possibility for the next one. Because the idea is definitely not the problem. It's what makes more sense. So I always say to Kai, when we start a new creative moment, it's always the best. You don't need to put the clock at the morning to wake up. You know that it will be a Sunday because we like to do that. So we're happy to working on that and to share with you some image hopefully in the next months already.

[Rob Nudds]

What are the biggest bottlenecks you currently encounter? Either as entrepreneur and or as a brand, A watch brand.

[Christopher Wegener]

As a small company like us, it's the. The time that that stake to. To produce everything. I think process can be faster if you. You have everything in house. Of course we. We're still not there. It's still the plan to to able to master in the future all the the aspect of the watch inside our company. But you have to adapt to to the subcontractor and the production lines they have when they can fit you in. So the go to market. It's always a long process. But yeah, at the end it's also high hand watches. And we have the chance that people also know that you have to wait a bit to receive your watch. If people can wait 10 years to receive a Daytona, I think they can wait one year to receive the Pragma watch. So yeah, that's a bit always the problem in the industry.

[Rob Nudds]

Although you're very young and you haven't supplied many watches yet. Do you already see trends? What demographics or geographical regions resonate the best for pragma?

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, definitely. We saw more interest in the US and also some place in Hong Kong, Singapore, also Taiwan because my associate is coming from there. But yeah, also young collectors. That was really interesting to have this kind of young collector. I think the market I don't know what changed during COVID but perhaps people had more time to spend on Internet and on their phone. But the market really evolve. It changed a lot for all the companies. Basically it's really interesting how the COVID changed a bit the market for the watch industry in general.

[Rob Nudds]

Who designed the first model so the.

[Christopher Wegener]

First model, it's sky, my associate, it's really a forehand process. He come with idea and after we can see how we can integrate it in the watch. So it's a process that I said take time because you have two brains that work and you also have to agree with each other. But when we find something good and we agree both of it, that's nice because as we are always sharing together, doing the process in and out, we decide something, we don't have any doubt of it, we can move on. And we have done that step by step. First it was how we can do the dial, how we want to indicate other product. How can we do it the cleanest way possible. Because we really want to have this minimalistic approach on the dial. I don't like minimalistic the word because people think, oh, because it's simple, it's not minimalistic. But to really do something that it's clear and, and clean and look like minimalistic. It's a lot, a lot of work, really. All the aspect of the size of an index, the size of the counters, how we can have the best readability of the date of the time. So I think only on that we almost take 10 months just to work on the dial and the possibility. And after we go into the case, how we can use this language DNA, we create. We want to have this simple look watch, but we really want to have something more. How we can integrate intermediate bezel up and down. That's a really fun way to create the case because we can really play with different kind of finishing polish brush now in future can also sandblast. We can also do some funny ways to use different kind of material doing two tones watches. So it's really creative way to, to, to. To play in this process. It takes a lot of time, but really, really happy with the result and how it looks.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

So, yeah, I honestly can't wait to see where you take the design language in the future. I think you're off to an incredibly strong start. The quality of the pieces just speaks to me through the screen. I love your website, by the way. It looks like a creative agency website. That's what I always think when I go on it. And I'm really struck and taken by the modernity of that and the perfect fusion of the modern aesthetics with that more traditional approach to the watch movement. Inside bar, the titanium, which is super cool. I love it. I would love to get you back on the show in maybe a year or so to see where you've gone. How the brand is built, whether new models have hit the market yet or whether we're still working on the first piece and building that community out. And I hope that we get the chance to hang out with you in Switzerland when we're there because we're going to be there quite a lot in the coming weeks, aren't we Alan?

[Rob Nudds]

We are definitely going to be a lot long and all around and if you haven't heard yet, we became official media partners for Time to Watches Fair. So there'll be a custom built studio made for us outside in front of Villa Sarasin where you'll see us in action.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Have to get some big signs made so nobody misses us.

[Christopher Wegener]

Yeah, that's great. I saw that and I really happy to to to see you and and come with the watch and definitely happy to to continue also in one year and nice what you said about the website. Actually it's really something that we create so the language, the aesthetic, that's something that is really important for us. We want to have that also. Even our website is different because for the moment we only have a website and social media to communicate it. So we want to also bring a fresh approach and something also looking for the future on the website. Sadly you can see huge company in Switzerland that doing watchmaking and have really complex and old school website and no, we want to bring something that even on the on the website is interesting for us. So that's also part of the creative process with my associate of course we use some help to do the coding but it's still also our creation behind.

[Alon Ma Joseph]

Yeah, I think for the establishment of a brand environment and a recognizable aesthetic it's just brilliant. It's top draw. Congratulations on that. If our listeners have any questions for Chris and they would like to get in touch with him, you can do so either directly via that wonderful website or you can contact us. You can use our Instagram handle herealtime show or you can contact us via email either Rob Alon or davidherealtime.show or via our contact form on www.therealtime.show. we'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on tick it.