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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
- [00:07]
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Welcome back to the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Knox. I'm joined as usual by our friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alain Ben Joseph and Martin Klocker of Sherpa Watches, one of our favorite brands, of course, the original partnership brand for the trts, the very first brand to partner with us on creating a special model, the Sherpa XTRTS Ops, which is still available, although who knows for how much longer. Go check it out on Martin's website. But let's not talk about that. Let's talk about all the new stuff that Martin's been doing since we last spoke to him on air on the Real Time Show. Martin, welcome back to the podcast.
- [00:42]
A
Thank you so much, Rob and Allen, it's nice to see you. Quite amazing to hear that basically everyone is more or less at home at the moment, which is quite a rare occurrence for us 3. I think we are just busy all the time and everywhere. So nice.
- [00:59]
B
It is very true, yes. So alons in London, you and I are both in Germany, but on opposite sides of the country. And we are sitting down, which is a state in which I have very rarely seen any of us, as you state, because, Martin, you travel as much as I do, possibly even more because you don't just do your watches, you've got a day job as well. So you are constantly on the road. You are maybe the most present feature of events of a certain kind that I know of. So why don't we start there? Because we've not spoken on the Real Time show for a couple of years or best part of a couple of years, which is crazy to think you've been to almost every fair I can imagine in that period of time. But why don't you, why don't you tell us like, tell us about that experience, tell us which events stand out to you and why it's so important to a brand like Sherpa.
- [01:49]
A
Yeah, it's quite interesting to see. I mean, I was just thinking while we were saying that, but every year I'm thinking, ah, this year I will not do that many shows. And the end, oh, this didn't really go well. But somehow, I mean, it's, I mean, one thing you also know, it's about connections. So some people are just really nice and, and have a lot of passion and they ask you and you think, yeah, it's actually quite a good idea to meet again. And I go there. So there are various reasons to do those shows. I mean, one, of course, the main reason is to connect with People who are potentially wanting to buy the watches or who have maybe friends who want to buy the watches or to present the brand in a certain area where you haven't been before. So there are different reasons to do that. And it's also different, I would say, from fair to fair to actually measure or to, to really evaluate if, if the fare was good or not. I mean, most brands have the same issue, I would guess, you know, it's like Ford who said, you know, 50 of my marketing budget is wasted. But I. The difficult thing is that I don't know why, I don't know which one. So that's the same with, with fares. I mean, sometimes you realize during the fair, after the fair, regarding inquiries or sales, that it's, you know, commercially a good fare, but sometimes it takes a while to, to actually see any kind of definite result.
- [03:25]
B
So how do you make those decisions as a brand owner? How are you able to discern between the events, like talk us through the way your decision making process has evolved over time? Now, Sherpa was founded by you in 2019. First watches were available for purchase in 2022. Since then you've been on sampling effectively every event going.
- [03:48]
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Yeah.
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B
When you were first starting out, tell us what your mindset was. Was it just like, I'm just going to throw a lot of darts and hope one hits the bullseye? And since then, have you managed to drill down to what kind of events suit you best and why?
- [04:02]
A
Yeah, good idea. Good, good question. So basically the first show I ever did was actually in Dusseldorf, the Watch time. So at that time, I mean, it was a local show. I didn't know anything about any shows at all and I just went there. That's quite simple. With the Watch Time show on Dusseldorf, for me it's always, I don't know, I'm thinking always, should I go, shouldn't I go? That's one of the shows where I don't really know. It has a certain reach, which is very specific to Germany, I would say, and maybe Benelux. So we have the usual potential customers from the area, but also from some neighboring countries. But not so much. So the reach, it's a bit limited. On the other hand, it's my local show. So for me it was a given to go there. But every time I'm thinking about it because it's not really the show for me. So for me I realized I prefer shows with maybe less people and more time to connect to the potential customers, to actually interact and to have a nice surrounding with Maybe similar brands or maybe even higher priced brands so that you have the right kind of customers you can actually take care of during meeting them. So for me, one thing I found out was it's not very good for me to go to shows where I'm maybe by far or by a bit the most expensive brand. So usually this is something I'm watching now more than I did before. So at the beginning I just went anywhere around the world where I thought, okay, could be interesting. And now I'm more selective regarding what is really the overall price range of brands. How many brands are there? Do I really have time to present the brand the way I want to? Do you have the space, the booth, the time. So.
- [06:09]
B
So when you start a brand like yours and you know you, you're effectively self funded as it were, there's not always, well, there's very rarely enough money to go around to all the things you would like to do at once. Obviously you have to make decisions where you're going to place your greatest investment. You obviously spent a huge amount in the research and the development necessary to build the quality product that you ended up with. And we know full well that it stands head and shoulders above many divers in its esthetic category and even price bracket. Of course, it is not the most entry level diver out there because of the technology that's included within it. So you spent that huge amount to begin with to get the product right and then you seem to focus on the events, the in person engagement, the interaction and whatnot. But that must cost a huge amount of money and it costs you a huge amount of time and headspace as well. What are the things as a young brand owner that you've had to push down the line a little bit further than you'd like to make space for that strategic execution?
- [07:17]
A
I think, I mean, one of the issues that I'm probably looking at more in the next year would be more video content rather than going to as many fares and spend a bit of that also on product development. So I think looking back at the last two, three years, I think we have been too many fairs and maybe I will cut down a bit and do some new areas. For example, Asia. I haven't been to Asia. Really. Okay, this could be an area where I look at.
- [07:52]
B
It's very interesting that you say that you'd like to focus a little bit more on creating more visual content because as you've always said, one of your primary justifications for going to so many events is your watches. Need a bit of explanation they need to be held, you know, for the quality to be really understood. And yes, product development is a great thing. Having more options would be wonderful. But you've done pretty well diversifying your product portfolio using basically one platform. So why don't you tell us about some of the novelties that have come out since we last spoke to each other on the Real Time show?
- [08:22]
A
Good question. I think last time we actually spoke, maybe it was even before our collaboration, but I'm not sure. I think we did a short one for our collaboration. So since then, I have to think about it. So basically what I did as, as you said, I tried to diversify on the basis of the models I already have, and there will be more coming. So I think the first model was the Saturn version of the Ultra Dive, because some people appear to not like polished cases or they want to have some options. And then there was the Ultradive sun and Moon. So the ones I brought two versions of the Ultra Dive, which have galvanized dials, so silver galvanized with sun brush and rose gold galvanized with sun brush. And I have to say I faced quite a bit of issues with this kind of new dial. So I didn't get the numbers that I really wanted to, and there were some, let's say, problems in the supply chain that I was facing. So also quite interesting experience with that, but that's being solved at the moment. But these dials and their dive bezel version just give a completely different look. So what I really found really nice was that many people who just had a look at my watches before, maybe we're not the biggest fans of black and orange. I would say the color combinations that I do have and these kind of watches, the silver and the rose gold, they gave a completely different look. And some people who may have not looked at my watches in such a detail were suddenly interested and gave the brand overall a different perception regarding details quality. So I'm quite happy with those two models. Then I brought out the Atoll Ultradive Atoll, which is the turquoise dial version. Also quite interesting. I had that in my, let's say, portfolio, I mean, the dial for quite a while. And not everybody, but many people told me, yeah, but this kind of turquoise is already gone. I also thought, okay, it's overdone, but nope, basically I posted a picture of my sister's version of that and suddenly I got a lot of requests. So this dial was also very successful and sold a lot better than I was expecting. So I was more or less instantly sold out. Because I only had small quantities, but this is also being corrected soon. And then actually I had a talk with a good friend also known to the trts and we were spending time together in Geneva, at Geneva during watches and wonders in our beautiful suite that we had. And he said, martin, why don't you do the moon configuration but with a dark black bezel? And that's how the tuxedo was basically born. Max, if you're out there, thank you for the heads up because it's actually really a good one. So the tuxedo, interestingly enough, it's only the bezel that's been changed, but the perception of the watch is completely different. So sometimes it's also maybe a good, you know, tip or whatever advice to many watch brands out there. Sometimes a small detail and if you look at it in a render doesn't really give you a lot of change. But on the wrist or in real life suddenly shows a complete different, I don't know watch. Some people even think it's a different dial color or some other things changed, but it's actually just the bezel. So the casino is a very classic configuration like in the 1940s and 50s, but as a dive watch.
- [12:49]
B
Yeah, I think it's one of the most beautiful, elegant color combinations presentations imaginable. And it just looks so good on the platform as it exists really unexpectedly so as well. Just super smart, super elegant. And to be honest, the moon itself was like for me a real eye opening moment to show just what this watch like, the versatility of this watch. Now when Alon and I met you separately, we both said the same thing. We said, oh, why don't you put the op style in the blasted case? Which is ultimately what the TRTS OPS is. But we, so we pushed it in an even more military direction and you've managed to pull it in an much more refined way than I ever saw possible. Like the silver dial, okay, it's more muted than the rose, which really leaps out at you, but it's just so, so like subtly elegant. I can't say enough about it. Alon, what do you think about that model?
- [13:46]
C
So you guys, you see how excited Rob is? Because I don't know how long we're into this conversation. I can't get a word in edge wise, so shows the passion. Before I ask my question. You guys did a lot of miles this year around the globe. But something has topped you guys, my personal Sherpa TRTS ops. Because in these years that that watch has been alive, mine has been around the world maybe twice and currently is in Islamabad right now. So I really miss my ops. And ever since, ever since I have the bead blasted stainless steel bracelet to go with the perfect finish of the case. Every time, the few days I have it in my hands and on my wrist, I posted on Instagram and people like, whoa, there's, is there a steel bracelet for it? So if you haven't seen.
- [14:48]
A
That'S a new one.
- [14:50]
C
World tour from London to Dubai to Pakistan. So it's racking his air miles. But originally I raised my hands to ask a question, but we've already gone away because I wanted to say on the topic of seeing is believing. So experiencing the watch, it's very difficult indeed to grasp the beauty of all the details and how it sits on your wrist and the quality of the product. So I understand why you're going to fairs, but we already went on. So you half answered the question about how you go about creating new models. Sometimes people feed you feedback and you listen or you don't. But while you are now planning one year, three year, five years ahead, how much do you listen to the market, as they say, or do you just do what you like and you go by gut feeling, instinct, or how much market research do you do?
- [15:55]
A
I do basically what I want to do. So I'm, you know, I have my ideas, what I want to do. I do get some requests. So I get some enthusiasts who say I would love to see this or that. And I mean, we all know what kind of possible or potential back catalog there is of former Sherpa watches. So what I did get, I did get some requests for a GMT and of course I did get quite a few requests for a chronograph. So I also both love both of those versions of watches. So this will be my next target.
- [16:39]
C
And if that's a target, do you feel you are willingly or unwillingly in a straitjacket? What do I mean? Are you stuck in the heritage framework of Sherpa, which was a brand name for any car? For those that are not that familiar with Sherpa, there's a humongous backup catalog, as you've mentioned. Do you feel because the watch you now have in your collections are rather true to the original. What I love about our ops, it's a super compressor and a real super compressor. There are a lot of watches that look like compressors. Some claim to be super compressors, but there is no doubt about the Sherpa watches, the modern ones and the old ones. To go back to that question, if you would make new models, meaning not variations on dial colors and finishes of the cases, a chronograph, a gmt, does it have to be true to what has been? Or will you. Will we ever see modern Sherpa watches?
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A
I think at the moment I'm still in the phase that I want to do. I mean, not. I mean, I don't have to be in a straight jacket, but I still. I mean, one of my elements of the passion are some of the old models, and there are still many to go. I don't have to do all of them, but I think some of the bits that I stuck to quite closely are actually one of the strong points of the watches today. For example, I went with the size of that time and the proportions of the case. And this is something that many people praise when they have the watch on the wrist. So I think with those details, I think I would stay. And I would stay for the next few models. I think I would stay quite close to the original. I mean, you see me deviating a bit with the style and the colors. So I think I would do something like that also with the new models. But at the beginning now I'm still in that phase. So I would do several models that are quite, let's say, faithful or. Yeah, good, good accounts of. Of old Sherpa models. And then, of course, in the following steps, I can think about something completely new.
- [19:08]
C
You've mentioned as much as possible, true to the original, and that's the first thing that popped into my mind. When you have a two or three hander, it's a bit more easy to keep the dimensions, especially thickness. The same chronographs is way more difficult for two reasons. Back in the day, they would use hand wound, where today we'll see more automatic. Huge difference in thickness.
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A
Not so much. Not so much.
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C
Okay, not so much. Yeah, for sure. I'm talking vintage inspired in general. Yeah. The thinner will go, the more expensive we'll go. What do you do when you cook your recipes? Do you just go, this is the recipe and the meal I want to cook and it costs what it costs? Or will you make compromise on that? What do I mean? Will you go for thicker movement to get the price down? Or do you say, hey, if it needs to be almost as thin as it used to be or as thick or whatever dimension they were, and it costs more? Is it c' est la vie and it costs more? Or do you take commerciality into account in your designs?
- [20:18]
A
Actually, I looked at the old Designs. And it's the old Chapa graph was a chronograph hand wound with Valjoux72. And if you look at the measurements, it's not that much. I mean, the new ones, including automatic, are not that much thicker really, so it's not a huge difference. I, I mean, I haven't done the detailed construction yet, but I'm sure I can stay within a certain package that has been there before. So when I see the current chronograph that are so thick, I mean, even the ones that are retro inspired, I'm a bit surprised why they do that. But, but maybe in several months when I've done more detailed work, maybe I would say, okay, I know why, I don't know. But at the moment I think I could stay roughly in that kind of package. Of course, I mean, I have a domed sapphire glass, which I will also keep. So the overall look of the watch will be thinner and the feeling will be thinner than the real deal in the end. I mean, if you look at the figures. But I think I, I'm at the moment still convinced I could stay roughly in that kind of package of the past. And they were very good on the wrist also, like, like the, the divers that I have. So. Yeah, you're fingers crossed.
- [21:45]
B
You're absolutely right. I mean, the, the actual practical thickness of an automatic chronograph off the shelf is only normally 1.1.2 millimeters more than a manual. And although every millimeter matters in watch design, it's, it's actually a smaller price to pay than people think. I'm really interested in exactly what role you play in the design yourself. Do you put pen to paper? Do you sketch? Do you work with a sketch artist that produces preliminary drawings? And then do you work with technical guys? Or do you do it all yourself in cad?
- [22:19]
A
No, no, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that. I mean, I, I realized redesign basically. Of course, I do most of the decisions, but I do realize that graphic designers have a real reason to be. And, and, and sometimes even if they just pull two lines here and there, the overall design is so much better just with a little attention to detail. I couldn't do that. So, okay, what I do is I, of course I, I, I will work with the graphic designer and he will, according to my input, do the design and we will go back and forth. I mean, as you know it, I mean, you know, it's yourself, every micrometer needs discussion. But overall, I give them, you know, I give him. Because it's Laurent Oberson, I worked with him, he's from Switzerland and usually he does the design and I'm really happy to have somebody like that. And then I will do the overall engineering. Together with Devante, he's also doing a lot of work for other brands. They have their own watch company called Ostilon. They do these completely handmade watches. And then I do the same in technical details with him.
- [23:45]
B
How long does it take to go from just a concept, which is your speciality? I guess, you know, you conceive like where you want it to go, what you want the brand to be able to provide to people. How long does it take to get from that moment to having even just a working prototype in your hand?
- [24:02]
A
Oh, okay. Last time it was longer because I had to do many, let's say, fundamental research. So I mean, last time I started in 2019 with nothing, and 2021 I had the prototypes. I would expect this to be now from start to prototypes, maybe half a year, I hope. Okay. That's roughly the time I should, you know, calculate.
- [24:35]
B
So for anyone that hasn't encountered Sherpa before and hasn't had the chance to get the watches in hand and has been compelled to visit www.sherpawatches.com, then you'll have seen that the watches retail for around between six and six and a half thousand euros. Right, Martin? In the eu, so that's a decent amount of money. Why? Very popular today. Why does it cost that much? What is it that is different about Sherpa in terms of how it's made, where it's made, and the time that's taken over these creations?
- [25:17]
A
So when I started, as you knew, I was completed as an outsider and I was a bit naive. So in the development process I thought I could do the watch for around like €3,000, made in Germany and made completely in Germany. So that was my thinking. And, well, while developing and then deciding, consciously deciding to do everything in Germany and Switzerland, I had to realize that that's, you know, just a dream. And I also had to realize that most people who write Swiss made and made in Germany onto their dials, in many cases stamp the made in Germany onto a dial in China or in India made in India or China. And all those things were actually quite new to me. So, well, I decided to do that all in Germany and Switzerland and that has a price. So my supply chain is with usually small family owned businesses in Germany and Switzerland with low volume. Maybe quite a bit of hand making involved, maybe not as industrialized as Big series productions in some other countries. So that's why I have a completely different price point regarding my supply chain. And, well, this took me also quite a while to realize, to be honest, during the process. But I wanted to stick to this. And I thought it's also one of my elements of my brand to be completely based in Europe regarding my supply chain.
- [27:02]
B
What you've done, the way you've built the brand, is quite interesting because as Alon alluded to before, Sherpa was a family name within the Enercar brand universe in the past, which no longer exists. And you managed to get your hands on the name a few years ago, having always been a fan of those watches and wanted to bring back a true compressor to the market. But in addition to this, you took the Sherpa name and then the whole universe developed around it because you yourself are a Buddhist and are connected very deeply to the Sherpa communities of Nepal and surrounding areas. As far as I understand it, even going as far as engraving the escape wheel. And is it the third wheel or.
- [27:46]
A
The fourth wheel, seconds wheel and escape.
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B
Wheel with a prayer. So the mantra matic, as the caliber is called, emits good vibes into the universe. How many times a day? Tens of thousands of times, Hundreds of thousands.
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A
One second, one mantra. You know, so you can multiply. So it's around 34 million per year.
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B
Okay, that's a lot of good vibes. That's a lot of good feeling. So the Sherpa name fits with you as a person, but then in addition to that, you are a proud German that loves engineering and quality products and wanted to do something that was in Europe. And, you know, so you prioritize the relationships that go into building a brand. Like you say you work closely with, with mom and pop companies or like independent makers, you can go and see your suppliers, you can knock on their door, you know them by name. Is a wonderful universe. It actually somehow aligns very easily. It's. It's rare that so many things fall into place because it's just fortuitous that you were able to acquire the Sherpa name and it happened to have so much resonance with you. But the big question is, do people care enough about this as a. As a branding universe to. To compel them to buy the watches? Is that why people buy the watches?
- [29:11]
A
It's often a mix, but the question is good. So some people care, some don't. That's quite obvious. And that's why I also never plan to be a big volume brand. So I Would not say I will be stuck in my numbers. No, I don't think so. Because as you know, I've been to many fairs, but I haven't advertised everywhere. I haven't got any dealers worldwide. In some parts of the world I'm not at all present. So from the beginning I thought, okay, I'm quite a niche mix of, I would say, unique selling points that some people find very interesting and some find interesting and others don't care about. It's like with any product. But I think I've got enough boxes ticked for an interesting audience.
- [30:06]
B
Yeah, it's a very good point. Because my follow up question, which you've pretty much addressed already is knowing that you were going to appeal to like a narrower window or a narrower parcel of people, how do you foresee the necessary growth? Because obviously you'd like to grow the brand a little more, you would like to sell more watches, but not stupendously more. Is it a question of diversifying the product portfolio to try and tap into new markets that previously weren't interesting in what you were doing? Is it a question of relocating your manufacturing to create a product inspired by the current European made Sherpa model that could operate at a different price point? Or is it a question of just communication strategy and flooding the Internet with this story that exists to find? Well, the thing is those people, you're right, they exist, right? There are people who do care. And I own obviously a Sherpa, as does Alon. Unlike Alon, who sent his around the world, I have worn mine extensively. In fact, it's been my most worn watch over the last two years, which is a testament to it. And for anyone that is new to the TRTS and missed the original episodes that we did with Martin about the release of our collaboration, I made a point about the way this watch grows on you over time. It's almost unbelievable. You think when you're in the industry as long as we've been that you've seen everything that you could possibly see that steel is steel and it doesn't have any different quality to it from one watch to the next. But there's something odd about all of the elements of the Sherpa, how it hangs together, how it feels much, much, much more like a tool than any other tool watch I have. Despite the fact that it's a very refined product with like in the case of our special edition as well, this fine bead blasted finish. On the surface, I liken it mostly to the very first Blancpain 50 fathoms something that feels like it should be displayed alongside a scuba tank and fins and diving masks rather than Omega Speedmaster or Rolex Submariner or so on and so forth. For me, it is the best of type, but it's not a type that is often represented truly within the watchmaking world. So having that watch on my wrist, wearing it as much as I did, all came down to that ever unfolding realization that this is a different kind of product. It's weirdly good. And I'm not denigrating Chinese manufacturing at all because we all know the vast majority of luxury brands have their very best cases made in China. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the stuff that comes out of that part of the world. In fact, oftentimes it's superior. QC is almost flawless. But here we have a product that somehow it feels genuine from top to bottom. It was made like on home soil, on our European soil at least. And it really breathes the ethos that you've breathed into it. More poetic a rant than I intended to go on, but it's. It's fascinating. Those people are out there, the people that care about this kind of stuff are out there, that you just need to find them. So you said before you want to do more videos, more content, on what kind of channels do you feel you'd be best promoted? Is it watch blogs or is it maybe something else?
- [33:26]
A
I think it's. It's a mix. Quite interestingly, I did a campaign in Germany. There was an article about me in a certain magazine which is not about watches, but rather about cars. It's called Walter. It's a magazine for people who like Porsche and Valterrell the rally driver. And it's about cars and lifestyle. And I got extremely good feedback from those kind of people because they value made in Germany. They value also good stories, they value personalities. So I do think that there are some, let's say communities or some collectors out there who may not be reading watch blocks all the time. There's this community, then there is also the community that is interested in mountaineering. Also some of them have quite a bit of money because otherwise they wouldn't pay 50 to $80,000 to climb Everest or do other things around Nepal. So yes, there are some areas where I could improve or focus more on marketing. And if I may do some shows less next year, I hope I can remember that next year, then I will try to do a bit more in these areas to reach more of those people. Because as you said, the people who buy the watches are Sometimes even surprised that in the end they're, you know, wearing those watches end up on their wrist a lot more often than they thought they would, which is, I think a compliment. And so they have a similar experience to you.
- [35:21]
C
And you've said fairs are important for you to get hands on with watches. But obviously after mention, my dear colleagues, the retailers. Most recently I've listened to another podcast where you made an appearance of our mutual friend Jeremy Oster, and he is one of the newest retailers for Sherpa watches, if I'm not mistaken.
- [35:45]
A
No, completely not mistaken. That's.
- [35:48]
C
Tell us, tell us more. Why did Jeremy take it on for his wonderful store and then. Or Colorado? And how important are retailers for you as a brand owner?
- [35:57]
A
So I, when I started out I thought, okay, I'll try to avoid retailers and do mostly direct. In my mind I had something like a 70, 30 split. Not retailer, retailer. Because also I didn't start out knowing how this would work. To be honest, I was completely naive and about margins, etc. So I don't have the margins that maybe big brands are factoring in. So. But no, but I also saw that in the US it was necessary to have somebody local. And the first retailer who found me, actually he has a very good nose regarding new brands was Martin Pulley. Then I connected with Brandon, Brandon Skinner on the, on the west coast horology by the Sea. And the latest one, as you said, was Jeremy. And Jeremy I did. I didn't know him before, I haven't seen him before until he sat in front of me, which was his wife Melissa, and they came visiting me during Geneva watch days. I was exhibiting with my local retailer, Watchmakers United. We had a show together, several brands, amongst them also Aman Biart or Satori Biart. And that's another thing. I want to point out that many of us independent brands, we're actually working quite nicely together and featuring each other and recommending and Amo, who just recently got together with Jeremy Oster, said, Jeremy, before you leave, you have to go over there and talk to Martin. So that's how it came about. I mean, that's really nice. And so he said in front of me, I didn't actually look for anybody new because I'm quite careful about adding dealers. You know, if you add too many, you know, they may, you may not be happy, they not be happy. I don't know, it's. I'm quite careful. And so basically he didn't introduce himself at first and we talked and then after a while he Said, yeah, by the way, we are dealer. We are here, we want to work with you. So that's how it came about. And then I actually, I did listen to his podcast where he talked about himself. There's one podcast about his life story and I really liked it. And that's how it is how I work. I, I usually go through recommendations. I like that, how the flow of life is going, you know, and that's also his style of thinking. So he, he said I was nice that we met and because we met and we like each other, I'd like to work. So that's very intuitive and that's also my, my style. And that's how it came about. And so I'm really glad to, to have him as a retailer. And the US is also one of the most important markets for me.
- [38:51]
C
We call it karma.
- [38:53]
A
Yeah, could be. I mean it is, of course there are, you know, cause and effect is always working. So. Yeah, but it's really nice. I love that, I love these kind of encounters and that that's also one of the reasons why I'm still in this business because I, that's how it started. Look, I met this and that. I mean, well, all through recommendations. So I think I was Watch time. No watch show Finland. Right. Rob, where we met. It was also Albert telling me, you have to meet Rob and like that. You know, it's somehow this flow of events and one guy telling you to do this. And so it's really nice. So I met so many interesting people through that.
- [39:36]
B
I had a very boring question that I wanted to ask you, but that leads me on to a slightly more personal and probing question. You say, oh, I'm still in this industry because you enjoy this, the way that it moves and the way that it tracks. But how close have you come to walking away in the last few years? Because it's not easy and it must take quite a toll on your energy reserves and I guess optimism sometimes when you're on the road and like we say, you don't just do this, you have a full time job as well.
- [40:06]
A
Yeah, I'm in the best several times, but I'm a Sherpa, so they tend not to give up, at least not for a long time. So yeah, I mean it was taking quite a toll on me personally because I do have a main job still to pay the bills for my family. Of course I still have the intention, I think I will get there also to move completely to the watches. Yeah, there were always like little dirty things that I don't like, like some brands using trademarks and I have to talk to them and they are depending on how much money they have, they don't care. Even some which appear to be micro brand on the outside, but they're actually quite big. So you also, you know, there are so many things that many people don't know that are really dragging brands down or brand owners down, stuff that they don't really want to do. So I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a hobbyist lawyer, I don't want to do this. But trademark and other issues are always something I have to deal with. And yeah, it's a constant thing. And then in between things are happening that let's say five years ago would have blown me away and I would have packed in and went away. But yeah, I've seen so many things now in the last four years that I, I think, okay, it's another one, we'll solve it somehow. And we go on.
- [41:37]
B
This is a good mindset to have a necessary one. I think if you're going to have a long career in this industry, let's flip this now entirely. So that was a question about like the maybe more negative mental health impact of being in the watch industry, but what about the opposite? Now you go to a lot of events and we've touched on that many times already today, and it's hard work. But there's something that I personally, I know from experience, you take from it like an energy, a boost, an ego massage in some ways as well. And I've spoken to other owners, brand owners like yourself who attend an inordinate number of events. And I say, why is it that you come to so many events? And when they answer honestly, they often say something along the lines of, I don't want to miss out. You know, I have to be, I have FOMO for the event, you know, I have to be seen, I have to be present. I want to be part of this community. Is there and it may be something you regard as attractive or unattractive about your personality. Is there a part of you that really just buzzes off being part of the scene, as it were, and being seen within that scene, or is that you an egoless person in your opinion?
- [42:52]
A
I don't think that anybody's an egoless person, but everybody has ego. It's a mix, you know, it's a mix because I mean, of course you, you get an ego, you get a boost, maybe even ego boost talking to people, but it's in a way, it's also rewarding because I like connection. So, I mean, if you're. If there are people who are really, you know, they really appreciate what you do, and then it's. It's some kind of, you know, it's a big reward. Because when you start out not as a marketing professional, but somebody who wants to do that with passion and you put something into the world that is maybe the closest to yourself next to your children, of course, it's interesting to see is. Is there anybody out there who also resonates with that? So to see somebody resonate with what you do is really rewarding in a way. I mean, I wouldn't say that's not necessarily ego padding, which is, of course, something like that, but it's quite rewarding. And to see somebody, I mean, the biggest reward, also a part of people buying the watch is to have those people tell you how much they love the watch or how much they wear it. And they are so grateful that you bring this product into the world. That's something like. You may also know this, you know, like. Or if you sold a watch, Alan, in your shop, and somebody's really happy that you could, you know, deliver this to him, and this is something very special, I think. So everybody, I wouldn't say could fall for this, but it's very positive interaction with people, which I really like. Of course, there's also fomo, depending on which what show it is, with a bit more experience, maybe less FOMO and what else? Yeah, but it's also quite tiring, you know, so talking the whole day, nearly the same story each time can be also tiring. So I'm quite happy that in the recent fairs, my wife was with me most of the times, or in Dusseldorf, we actually. With four to six people at the booth.
- [45:04]
B
Okay, who were the other people you drafted in?
- [45:07]
A
So my whole family, my children were there too. And then two outsiders, like friends of the brand or. Yeah.
- [45:19]
B
How old are your kids?
- [45:21]
A
Overwhelmed, which was really difficult.
- [45:25]
B
How old are the kids now?
- [45:27]
A
19 and 17.
- [45:29]
B
Okay, so they're old enough to be in the business. And what do they think of their dad's strange obsession with watches?
- [45:36]
A
I think they, they, they, they, you know, I think at the beginning they thought I was a bit crazy. They may still think that I would have to ask them, but they quite like it. Yeah, so it's, it's quite, you know, for them. It's also interesting that people know me or know the brand or even some school friends know my brand or I'm actually not very prominent here. It's quite interesting. I think most people, more people know me abroad than in my hometown. But yeah, no, but they, they, they like, like that and I think they, they want to, to get involved more at least my son who's still at home, my daughter is already out and studying. But no, that is, it's quite a, quite a nice feeling to have the whole family together.
- [46:29]
C
Does that drive you as well that it might become a second generation family business?
- [46:34]
A
Yes, yes. I mean it's an option and it's something nice to have as an option to say okay, I could leave something they can build upon if they're interested. And it's quite an interesting business. It's, yeah, it's, it's off. It's also possible for people like outsiders coming in, into this area. So my, my daughter's studying psychology could be a fit also, you know. And so yeah, I'm trying to involve them more into things and let's see how this works.
- [47:13]
B
I've always wondered what it would be like to bring family like family completely removed from the industry along to an event just to show them because I'm sure my fa. I don't know what my family think I'm doing over in Germany. I think they, no idea what I'm doing out here but they would be amazed to come and to see like that we have this international community, this, this family beyond our own immediate family. That's, that's very real and very close together, I would say. Now one thing I want to ask before I forget talking of the family around the world, including your retailers, it must be great for existing customers and prospective customers to have somewhere to go if they have any problems with the watch, which is one of the things people always ask, what do they, you know, with an independent watch brand if they have an issue. So for example, because I wear mine so much, I whacked it on a rock face at one point and I took a chip out of the bezel on the, on the outside which I actually kind of, I love because I like the first, the first scratch is always a memorable one, shall we say. And I remember exactly where I was when I did that. But if I didn't love it and if I wanted to get that repaired or if I'd really damaged the watch and it stopped working, how would I go about that? Where do I send it?
- [48:27]
A
I mean in, in Europe it's us. I mean worldwide it's us somehow. And then we need to talk about that. Recently I, I was quite happy to have someone in as A service center in the U.S. quite interestingly, it's the ex guitarist of Anthrax, Dan Spitz.
- [48:50]
B
Oh yeah, that is well known. Also a podcaster, you know, with his podcast in the Metal with Johnny.
- [48:56]
A
He did that with Johnny, I think, from. From Ireland for quite a while. He hasn't done any of them recently, I think.
- [49:03]
B
No. But listeners and lovers of podcasts, be aware, in the Metal is returning in 2026. Johnny has retooled the whole show, so look out for that because it's a great listen and he's a great character and a good friend. So Dan Spitz say what a. What an interesting addition to the Sherpa family.
- [49:21]
A
It's quite amazing. I like the story, you know, like he was touring around with Anthrax at that time. And I'm. Back then, I wasn't a big Anthrax fan. I mean, apart from Bring the Noise, maybe together with Public Enemy. I quite like that one. But I love the story and I like connections. So we connected quite a while ago and we're talking back and forth and now it's happened. So he can take care of watches for me in the US now, which improves a lot because the whole shipment back and forth with taxes and customs is quite a pain, I think. Ellen.
- [50:04]
C
Yeah, I did. Rob, you see, is so excited. He's hijacking the mic continuously. Well done, Rob. Good question, by the way, about Alpha sales, because it is an important aspect to many collectors and a worry. Now, on the subject of family business, I want you to share one awesome story of your kids that they really helped you as an entrepreneur and one where they made a joke out of you. So I thought I was in the know. My kids are a bit younger than yours, but when they came home and they were doing 6 7, juggling their hands in the air, I officially knew I was old. I had no idea what you're talking about until Instagram told me that 67 is the word of the year. So, yeah, whomever is not watching this episode, you need to see Rob's and Martin's faces. They obviously don't know what 67 is either. And yes, it's the word of the year of 2017.
- [50:58]
B
What are you saying? Are you saying 6 7?
- [51:01]
C
Yes, sir.
- [51:02]
B
As in. As in the number 6 and the number 7?
- [51:05]
C
Yes. This proves you don't have children. And Martin's children are probably too old. So everybody who's listening and knows what I'm talking about and hates that word, join my club. But circling back to Martin's Kids, what have they surprised you in a positive sense as an entrepreneur? Rob.
- [51:24]
B
Rob is raising his hand before Martin answers this question. Are you going to tell us what six seven mean? It's not a word anyway, it's two words. What is six, seven?
- [51:35]
C
I honestly have not figured out what it means. Within the universe of the digital game Roblox, there is a game called Brain Rot. Sounds like is it is an actual brain rot. Playing that game makes your brain rot.
- [51:51]
B
Right. Well while Martin answers this question which you might need to my interruption I'm gonna Google.
- [52:00]
C
So Martin, before, before Rob interrupted share us a story that, that, that your kids threw your career. It can be on design. Could be like dad, why are you doing fairs? Dad, why don't you do enough podcasts? Why don't you do YouTube? Why don't you create a watch for an avatar in Roblox? Share some funny stories with us.
- [52:22]
A
Actually quite what I was quite positive. I mean I was positively surprised at the first fair that my kids were working at. So at the fair in Dusseldorf, I mean of course it's nearby so everybody can join. But they were really enthusiastic. So that's what I was so surprising me. And I also got really nice feedback from, from people saying yeah, I talked to you, I think maybe your daughter at the, at the booth. And she was really explaining well what. So I was quite surprised that they actually dug in and are really quite passionate also about it and giving me feedback and saying oh that's, I didn't think it was so difficult to do be at a fair or whatever. You know, like it's quite interesting. And also what I found quite interesting is my son is quite involved in, he's quite creative. I mean both have been quite good painters since very young. So my son is I would say quite, very sophisticated with colors, I would say. And he gives me unwanted reviews regarding, regarding my color selection or my, my upcoming designs or whatever. So, so he's quite critical in that he's, you know, he gives me advice what I should and shouldn't do, which is quite interesting. And he's, it's quite well founded. So I think that's quite good. Playing jokes on me. I, I, you know, I might have forgotten. I think at the beginning I got a lot of jokes about what I'm doing but I probably have forgotten that as a parent you have to forget half of things that they do to you.
- [54:04]
C
So do they say dad, what are you doing in this old fashioned world? Who needs mechanical watches? I mean they are Gen Z, I think Your kids, do they still think watches are relevant?
- [54:18]
A
Yeah, actually they do. So my, my daughter is quite fond of the mechanical watches that I amassed. So I, I, I, in one point of time, I mean I start with the Enika Sharpa Lady Dive. That was the first thing into vintage watches. And since then I, I bought maybe 10 lady dive watches from the 1960s while my wife is not really wearing them, my daughter started wearing them. So she quite likes watches, vintage watches and I mean not that's her main subject, but she appreciates. And my son recently is also starting to look at my vintage watches and of course wants to, you know, know more about them. So each kid is getting one when they complete the 18th birthday. My daughter got one and she got a special engraving also which is also something new maybe to say that we can do custom engraving even on the seconds wheel if you have a life motto or you want to give something special to your spouse or whoever. So we engraved for our daughter, in addition to the mantras we engraved forever connected in love, mom and dad. So it's, it's turning around in the watch all the time. So my son will also get a watch. So he's already inquiring what this could be.
- [55:47]
C
Of course.
- [55:50]
A
I don't know.
- [55:50]
B
Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe.
- [55:55]
C
We'Ll persuade him. Let him call me.
- [55:57]
A
Okay.
- [56:00]
B
Yeah, we should, we should get the audience to write in with their suggestions of what Martin son should go for, for his graduation gift. Yeah, solid gold Rolex day date of.
- [56:13]
C
But on the topic of customization, that was actually a question I had earlier in the show. I know we need to wrap it up, but I'm also super excited you said that you listen to the feedback in the market. Would you make a one off if somebody comes to you?
- [56:29]
A
I actually did several times.
- [56:33]
C
Will you do it in the future?
- [56:35]
A
Yeah.
- [56:36]
C
Good to know. Guys, if you're listening, girls and guys.
- [56:40]
A
So what we do, what we can do is we, we can do special dials, special color dials. I've done one for a lady in the US and she wanted to have a sun brush, very special gray. She gave me the color code and our dial maker made that for us and for her. And she got a very special seconds wheel engraving because her mother was a yoga aficionado and the watch was to remember her mother more or less her late mother. And we can do on the case back engraving. So that's something we can offer for as a unique or more unique piece.
- [57:29]
B
And how long does it take if someone orders? Because I mean we're in the run up to Christmas now. Yeah, no shoes.
- [57:38]
A
So I mean, for the mantra itself, maybe four weeks. But for custom dials, it can take quite a long time. Okay, so it's maybe two, three months for a custom dial because my dial maker has to plan it and it's a single piece. He may have to try three, four pieces to come up with one good one. So that takes a bit longer.
- [58:02]
B
Well, you heard it here. If you want to do that, get planning for Christmas 2026 with a custom dial and engraving. You can get in touch with Martin, as we mentioned. You can contact him via the Official Sherpa website, www.sherpa. that's s h e rpawatchers.com. if you have any questions for us, you can get in touch either via our website www.therealtime.show, via the Instagram handle herealtimeshow, or by emailing either Rob or Alon herealtime show. Martin, thanks for coming back on the show. Let's not leave it so long next time because we'd love to have you as a regular guest so people can stay up to date with what Sherpa is doing and find out where they can come and see you in person on your global travels. We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.