B (5:19)

Very, very interesting. I was thinking of what I wanted for 26 or what I hope the watch industry will do. And you touched up one of the two that I scribbled down in my notes while thinking about what we're going to say during this episode. And I wrote down two things is I wanted to discuss with you the topic of sustainability. It seemed it was a bit of a trend And I have a little feeling it's stagnating. And I'm very curious if it's actually important to the watch collecting community. Was it was or is it just a marketing gimmick? So that's something I would like to touch upon this episode. And the second thing is that I wrote down is indeed accessibility of consumers not so much to watches only, but also to watch brands. And this is indeed a trend that has I think been picked up by the whole industry. Not only the watch brands, but I want to give a shout out to time to Watches Fair and especially Geneva Watch Days as well. They've built a platform that has only one thing in mind is accessibility for consumers to both products, to hold them in their hands and to talk to brands. And in that comment, I do want to give a shout out to the organization behind Watches and Wonders, which is not per se FHH anymore. Watches and Wonders became an association where a nonprofit organization by themselves on their own merits. But obviously they're close ties. So maybe I have to split my kudos here on the third tier to both of them. So maybe four shutouts. So it's they are doing what you and I have set out to do with the Real Time show is share the passion about watchmaking and sharing knowledge. So educate. And it seems that in Switzerland, because all these organizations are Swiss and, and, and the most recent one maybe is Dubai Watch Week, they have set out to do exactly the same the Siddiqui family, which is not per se Swiss. So I think the game has been overall lifted in the whole watch industry, as you just mentioned. I think that's an awesome thing you and I had in that sense an amazing year by being media partner for so many events in 25. And we're having actually very constructive talks and plannings with organizations for 26. So yeah, I think that's awesome. Rob, before we do my first topic, I wanted to ask you on a macro sense of things and maybe drilling down to micro, what is your product perspective for watches in 26 or what do you hope to see in 26?

A (8:38)

Well, I'll answer your point or address your point about sustainability first and then use that to segue into that conversation when we break down what we might see from products themselves. Because I think that you said two things there that I think can be true simultaneously, like is sustainability important and is it just a marketing exercise? I think it can be both things at once. So I think it's not very important to the mature collector who's not grown up with it who probably poo poos the concept of sustainability in all facets of life. You know, probably drives a diesel car and flies everywhere and you know, has plenty of consumer electronics shipped to them from around the world. I would guess that most watch buyers trend to be older because it's an expensive hobby and most people don't accrue disposable income until the latter years of their life or at least their middle age. And so I'd say that demographic profiling makes sense from top to bottom. You have somebody that isn't really that bothered about whether you plant a tree for every watch that they buy from you. But it doesn't hurt, I don't think. I think there's one or two maybe very. And I've got, I love Jeremy Clarkson, but let's say Jeremy Clarkson types, you know, who might object to this. What they could see as even wokery, although it's very, very low level wokery that they're like, oh, why do I care about planting a tree? I just want to buy a watch. Why are you complicating it? Why are you bringing all these social movements into my hobby? It's like, okay, fine, you're going to lose a handful of people there maybe, but I mean a literal handful. So that's nothing to really worry about. Where sustainability is important is two, well, threefold. One, yeah, if production can be more planet friendly, that's not a bad thing. Two, the companies themselves, they need to be sustainable. They need to make sure that their practices aren't going to run into new governmental legislation that might ban the production of materials that they're used to producing on our shores, for example, or might ban the shipping of materials from far afield. So the companies need to have an eye on this and think, okay, how can we make our products more farm to table rather than outsourcing everything further afield and do that from a cost sustainability perspective as well. The third perspective is the newer and already emerging generation, the younger collectors. There are plenty of young people in terms of numerical value coming through the industry that have money to spend at a younger age. And so they might actually see it as something you just have to take care of as a matter of course. Like water resistance, for example. We all take water resistance for a watch at least to 3 atm as a standard. We expect better and better water resistances as we go on because we assume quite rightly that modern manufacturing techniques can assure us of that. So I think that there is likely to be an expectation from the next generation of sustainability within the company structure and the products and the product production pathway would be the de facto way of living. Is it a marketing exercise? Yes, of course. And it's quite an easy one. It's low hanging fruit, no pun intended. It is something that you can easily talk about, maybe with the classic watchmaking obfuscation surrounding exactly what you're doing. But why not? Also, you know, you've got to try and be aware of these things happening. You don't want to be the last one to the party. But then we look at one key example of a brand that has made sustainability the key tenet of their existence and let's talk about ID Chenev in that regard. They exist almost entirely to experiment with these new technologies and they are a leader in that space in the way that Hublot is often the leader in material science in the industry, the Skunk Works or the Formula one of high horology, as it were. And so IDD Genevieve has not just gained many customers, but it's also gained backing from some very visible figures, Most notably Leonardo DiCaprio who has invested in the brand. This is a powerful pocket of the industry that is developing because it shows that if a brand actually places those sustainable concerns front and center, they can have success. Now again, you could say that's slightly a marketing thing because that is the brand. So it's like, is it sustainability that can be applied to the industry en masse? Maybe not now, but I think what they're doing could roll out in the future to other brands as well and they could be a leading light in that field. Would you like to respond to that?

B (13:32)

Yeah, I would like to. So you took the words out of my mouth because I started thinking about what it does about sustainability. The funny thing is, as a retailer both on the jewelry or watch side, I've maybe never had a request for a more sustainable jewel or watch here in the Netherlands or in London. I don't really feel it is a critical success factor to sell a product or buy a product. Me, myself, I do love it. I've experimented twice with Cedric Bellon, made two collabs. First ever recycled steel watch. First ever titanium recycled steel watch. But the God honest truth is all the buyers didn't really care. They liked it's a beautiful watch. They love the fact that the design, price, quality is good. And that made me start thinking that where your intro was very good about the diesel and the flying cars, you need to actually change a whole infrastructure. You need to go from petrol diesel to batteries, charging infrastructure et CETERA taxes with watches. It's easier in the jewelry industry, which is very ironic. I don't know if you knew that, but almost all the gold used in the EU is like 99% recycled, especially in the jewelry industry. So refineries in Europe, it's almost all recycled gold. They don't take gold from mines and maybe they blend a bit. But in the Netherlands, for over 10, two decades, all the gold we buy from Shona, which is the biggest refinery in the eu, so I'm excluding Switzerland here, has always been recycled, but nobody talked about it. So that's an interesting point. Yeah. So, Rob, do you want to maybe to quickly interject, I mean, it's a.

A (15:36)

Similar thing with steel, right? So recycled steel has become a big thing that people talk about now. But nearly all steel is at least in part recycled, probably not as high as that, maybe around 60% recycled. And so for a brand to be able to say that their steel is recycled, it has to hit a much higher threshold. I believe it's over 90. It's at least over 80, but they're around 90, 95%. So Fortis uses recycled steel and theirs is like 96, 97% recycled. So it is actually a different type of steel. But there has always been this sustainability out of necessity more than anything else, because, you know, gold is finite. I mean, the resources of steel are ultimately finite as well. So we don't want to waste anything. And it just makes financial sense to use recycled materials where possible. Now the only difference is that we communicate it as a positive thing for the planet, even though it's been going on for quite some time.

B (16:32)

Indeed. So using that as a segue, I want to salute Chopin in the last or pre, last Basel world. I remember their whole annual spiel, their marketing spiel. Their big news was everything is going to be recycled gold, watches and jewelry, which I salute them for that. I want to give a shout out to adepc. They were one of the first companies to embrace sustainability, as you said, not on a product level, but on a holistic company level, trying to reduce their carbon footprint as a whole. So that's a shout out to iwc. I had obviously ID geneve on there. But quickly to you on the IWC.

A (17:16)

Topic, I wanted to also shout out Breitling and mention that it's not just recycled gold that these brands are peddling, it's ethical, ethically mined gold. So this is the other caveat, you know, it's all well and good, like having gold that's within the system. And being recycled. But new gold that's sourced has to be ethical now, right? And so Breitling, remember we went to that big presentation by George Kern where he talked about every bit of gold was ethically sourced. All of the diamonds are lab grown and well, not all of them, but many of them are lab grown and therefore low impact. It's a movement, you know, it's obviously something. Brands don't do stuff that costs them money for no good reason. And they often are already doing things that don't cost them any more money other than to communicate them more effectively. So we're seeing a bit of a mixture of those things happening now, is moving in that direction.

B (18:10)

Well said. And that's the beauty of it. He initiated that at iwc. For those that don't know, George Kern used to be a longtime CEO at iwc. At a certain point at Richemont, he was at the helm of both Roger Dubuis and Beau Mercier. A very brief stint. He ran the whole Watch show at Richemont. But he interjected that strategy in all those brands. He moved on to Breitling, became a part owner and still is today. Created a new group today in Dubai Watch Week, they announced the House of Brands. So I hope he'll also trickle that down. So the point I was driving is a big, big shout out to Adi. Genevieve. You mentioned them. You mentioned Leonardo DiCaprio. I love that because Leonardo does exactly what he aimed to do. He didn't invest in Idgnev to make a killer return. He did that because he's a. Call him a green soldier. He's an ambassador for making a more green planet. Kudos to him. Although officially he's affiliated to Rolex. He's a Rolex ambassador because the most recent red carpet pick, he was actually wearing the Land Dweller. But he visited ID Geneve in Switzerland. They went to this partner of theirs where they do furnace costing of metals, which was a big PR stint. And that's why he does it. I love that. I don't know if we'll have time during this recording because I think you and I can dedicate a whole episode about Collabs and what 2026 will do to collabs and maybe David wants to write an article about it and we do an article analysis. But talking of that, I am very curious if I De Geneve hit their commercial stride, which I really hope they do, marketing wise. They're doing a killer job with Leonardo Caprio coming on. They blew up in a positive sense, marketing wise. And what I would love to see in 26 is ID Geneve doing a collab with another watch brand. And what IDE would bring to the table to that brand is the sustainability angle. Not so much their design language. But that's something that I would love to see in 2016 if we talk about collabs for now. So I'm maybe jumping ahead here.

A (20:33)

I think we will talk about it and I think it's, it's on the list of things to cover. But that's a great, a great one to come back to because that's a brilliant, brilliant way for brands to collaborate more authentically. You know, we talk about this at Arkanal all the time. Like we do things that nobody else in the watch industry does. And there's technologies that we're developing that would be interesting to other brands as well. You know, you can be a professional supplier of a component or of a supply chain.

B (20:59)

Sorry, quickly to jump in. I, I, I'm sorry I had to mention Archonaut. I actually wrote it down. I forgot to mention it. What is also important in that sustainability topic? You rightfully said ethical mind. Sustainability is recycled awfully or repurposed and upscaling. What you do with the for diet is beautiful. You take a toxic chemical thing that is considered negative and you guys turned it into a jewel, you make a dial, put it in a watch, it lasts. So and that's also what you don't see enough that upskilling. So for those that are maybe not that familiar with Archinaut, that's also amazing what you guys do there.

A (21:42)

Yeah, some people would, I mean, it's called upcycling, I think is what the term is. And we've wondered whether we should ever really make that a key aspect of our communication. We decided not to because we thought that it might somehow have a negative effect on the perception of the product as luxury. But there are obviously, you know, we talk about it extensive, talk about the materials extensively and people draw their own conclusions therefrom. So yeah, it's what's interesting to me is rather than like whether it's upcycled or ethical or, or sustainable, is that it is and it is all those things, but it's a question of whether it's novel and whether certain companies have a handle on a technology or a set of processes that could be shared with other companies to better the other company's products without polluting their aesthetic DNA. So I've always thought that the brands that have something that they do that no others can do are in an extremely powerful position when it comes to collabs, despite the fact those kind of collabs being extremely expensive and much riskier than just putting a new dial colorway or a new hand or a new case back engraving on a watch. But I think that if we, if we ever want to take the collab fatigue that you talk about frequently seriously, that would be one way to really dispel those concerns because that makes perfect sense. You know, go with a professional in another field and do something with your brand in their way. So let's move on, start talking about specific product things. Now we, we had did a bit of a quick fire session in the last episode that I think went quite well. So we'll try and keep this relatively succinct, which is of course not our forte. But of course it does end up stimulating conversations between us and also within the group. So if the group, if the TRTS network, which anyone listening can join by contacting us via the usual channels either on Instagram herealtimeshow or via the website www.therealtime.show can pitch in with questions or tangents or you know, deep dives into any aspect of what we're discussing, that'd be great. First thing we're talking about, something that's obviously been on my mind for a long time and is certainly on the minds of more people by the day, is the return, the glorious return of quartz, which itself is arguably quite sustainable. Maybe a mechanical movement still beats it from a theoretical perspective because the idea is if a mechanical movement is well serviced and kept in good shape, it can run forever. Quartz obviously needs a battery replaced every two to eight years, depending on the caliber, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, unfortunately. But there seems to be a turning of the tide. There seems to be a desire now more so than I've ever seen in my career, for high end luxury quartz. Do you believe, Alain, there is a possibility that we could see a second revolution?

B (24:50)

Yes. Hands down, yes. The God honest truth is I might be perceived by some as a snow, but I'm not taking as a general and then definitely as a watch snob. I've always worn quartz watches. I still do today, maybe very quickly. For those that are not familiar with the advantages and disadvantages of both quartz and maybe a mechanical movement. Why I've never ever dismissed horse movements. And it's very interesting because my vintage is 1979 and imagine the horse crisis ramped up in the 70s. But I grew up in the aftermath of the mechanicals being incinerated and in 1985, you saw a huge revival with the Chronomat by Breitling, the Da Vinci by IWC Blancpain coming back up and using it as a tagline. We've never made a quartz watch which is interesting. So the advantages of a quartz movement are first and foremost shock resistant. Hence high end brands that make more of a sporty watches will sometimes make both because it has an added value. If you really do extreme sports you need a quartz caliber, it's that simple. Another benefit, it's slimmer. So if you need a slim design, think about Denison. If Denison wanted to make a mechanical watch, they need an ultra thin either hand wound movement or micro rotor whatever and that makes it gigantic leap in price. That's a benefit. And another thing is, and that's often why female watches have quartz watches, not only because it needs to be small in diameter or slimness in height. A lot of women don't have the patience to wind a set of mechanical watch. So that is the practical issue, that it keeps time.

A (26:45)

Yes Ron, I'm not sure that that's entirely a female thing. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of men that are sick of winding their watches all the time and most guys would probably prefer an automatic to a manual. I think really whether someone can be bothered investing the time in winding the watch comes down to more their interest and love of the hobby. I'm sure that all the women in the TRTS network would be quite happily wind a watch. The fact of the matter is the female market has just been much smaller than the male market for the last well since watchmaking began really. So I would say that yeah there's, that there's a sort of point of convenience there. But I think that if it's marketed well and if we take new ideas of like what luxury finishing techniques to be applied to Cortzes and we really celebrated it rather than trying to hide it, then there could be an explosion of interest on all sides of the gender sphere.

B (27:43)

Totally agree. And the point I wanted to drive while doing an intermezzo of the benefits and the disadvantages is I truly believe we'll have a big reincarnation is because they finally cracked the solar quartz evolution by making it so good. And what does that mean? So you'll have light powering the energy source of a quartz movement and it lasts so long that it makes it qualitative because what's another disadvantage of a quartz movement is back in the day they would run year, year and a half if it's A chronograph. And you run the chronograph, it could be six to nine months and then you need to go and have it replaced. And if you don't do it properly, the seals are not done well and then you have issues with water resistance, waterproofness, etc. And it's just a nuisance to go to a physical store or not, etc. So I've been selling kilos and kilos of Citizen Pro Divers. A citizen was a champion in the solar powered sphere and they were good. But every five to seven years you had to replace a lot of parts and that was expensive and irritating to consumers.

A (29:19)

Sure. One thing to point out about the difference between solar powered quartz and, well, battery powered quartz is I remember, I think it was Citizen actually, that when they first came out with the Eco drive, they said you'll never need to change a battery again. This is true because solar quartz watches and kinetic quartz watches, so ones that where the capacitor, not the battery, which is what's replaced, is charged by a winding weight, needs this power source to be replaced ultimately. Now the capacitor is basically a rechargeable battery. So they've given it a different name because it's a different thing slightly. But ultimately they do wear out. You can't expect to buy a solar Quartz watch and to never have to change the capacitor. Now like you said, Alan, the time that a battery is expected to last used to be very short. It has expanded. Now many ronda movements have like an eight year battery life and that's off a simple cell battery. Eight years used to be the benchmark for replacing your capacitor as well, which I mean eight years, once every eight years you can handle taking your watch into a jeweler's and you know, even having it sent off to Citizen or whomever. Alpina of course, do solar as well now, which is an excellent development for our most recent partners with whom we collaborated on the recently released Alpina X TRTS Seastrong Diver Extreme Automatic, which is still available online until the end of January if anyone wants to go check it out.

B (30:53)

Nice plug, dude.

A (30:55)

Yeah, good plug, right? So good segue. The thing I want to point out, I don't want our listeners to think that if they buy a solar Quartz, that's it for the rest of their lives, like there isn't any servicing concerns, that there isn't anything that could go wrong. Of course there is. The real advantage for me with solar powered quartz watches is let's take my Casio G Shock mudmaster, the first gen of the of the Reborn line. As an example, when you're not using it, when it's in your watch box, it shuts down. So it goes into hibernation and then you have to stick it in front of the sun or light source for, well, preferably the sun for quite some time before it comes back to life. Couple of hours at least actually. But then it'll spring back to life. And that does conserve the lifespan of the capacitor. Of course. It's a balance. You never want to leave something like a capacitor or a battery sitting around for years and years and years and years on end. But if you rotate through watches, this is where so just. I will get through this as quickly as possible. There's an advantage to quartz. That's what Dennison really has cottoned onto. When you've got an occasional dress piece like a Denison ald, like a Cartier tank, something like that, you can have that as a quartz because you want to have a grab and go that you can put on with your suit or your ball gown and go out to a fancy event without having to think about winding it or setting it. Blah, blah, blah. Not only is it convenient, these are awful, stressful situations where you don't have to worry about your watch. That makes perfect sense. So with a solar that's maybe shut down, that's not as ideal, but you've got a balance there. You know, on the one hand, if you are a person that normally wears mechanical watches and you're used to winding every day, being able to grab and go with a quartz is a lovely little thing. But simultaneously, if you have solar quartz in your box there and they've not been worn for a while, they are at least not wearing out their components, which would be the case of a normal quartz watch. Unless you pull the crown out when you store it, which is not a terrible thing to advise as long as you store it in dust free environment. Because obviously when you've got the crown pulled out, the chances of particulate ingress are increased.

B (33:06)

Thank you for that. So I also have my Mudmaster that I actually bought in Japan while visiting Casio and had a presentation by the head designer that designed my Mudmaster, which is awesome. And it's a pity because a lot of things are lost in translation because they simply don't speak English and you literally need translators from Japanese to whatever language to get that message across. But I had the honor to be in the boardroom and get that message across that's another downside for me. I put them in boxes or drawers. My G shocks are in my drawers. When I go work out, I strap on my G shocks. But then indeed it shuts down so then I can't wear it, so I get annoyed. So every benefit has a disadvantage and every disadvantage has an advantage. So, long story short, Rob, I'm quite sure we'll see it. And why do we see it? One of the front runners is TAG Heuer. Two years ago they started introducing their initial solar powered quartz calibers in an Aquaracer. Kudos. A shout out to our friend Andrew McCutcheon and the whole time and Thai team. Their collab, I believe with TAG Heuer was solar powered, which is interesting. You see also the embrace quartz with the Denison collab they did last year. So I don't think it's a fad or a trend. I think it's here to stay and I think it will boom.

A (34:40)

Very good. I hope it does as well. Now we're going to move on to a very woolly discussion about colors and textures. Now. Do you think we're going to see any new colors break into the mainstream as green did a few years ago? And what do you think about textured dials? Do you think they still have the same allure as they have over the past decade, or do you think we're going to see a reversion to flatter dials and more traditional finishes?

B (35:07)

The answer is twice. Yes. So will we see a new color? Yes. I don't know what it's going to be. I have a feeling we're going to go a bit darker. So not the pastel way. We saw Rolex going to pistachio. I hope it's purple. Ish. I think you've said that as well on air. This is Shout out to the horror file. Our friend Amer, he's the king of purple for over a decade. I think it's going to be more like brownish. I think Pantone did this mocha cappuccino thing. I didn't check if Pantone launched a new color for 26 already. That's interesting to see.

A (35:53)

I reckon it's out there already. Yeah, we need to check out what that is. I think I had on my card, you know, I like guessing these. I think I had like a pale yellow or something for this year, but I don't know. We'll see what it is. I think that you touch on the two main things that I wanted to mention as well. I was pushed the other day in an interview I did for Der Spiegel, which is a magazine in Germany for anyone that doesn't know, with Felix Daxel, who was a guest on the Real Time show towards the back end of last year. And he interviewed me in a year review format and he said, looking ahead to 26, what colors do you think? And I actually said, I do think that we're going to see a persistence of these pastels, but maybe with brighter accents, even neons or highlighter accents. And highlighter accent may not make sense to everybody, but what I mean by that is it's kind of a pale neon that really picks out the base color and yeah, brings it to life and pops against the dial. But he also pushed me on one color to choose other than this sort of more ethereal pastel notion. And I said purple as well.

B (37:00)

Interesting. So I'm all over the place. I have a lot of duality in me. And on the one hand, I think that what's beautiful about the watch industry, we went now so wide and there's so much creativity and we're not letting. I'm using the word us, but the watch industry being boxed in anymore, we have become fashionable. And I don't mean in a negative sense that it's a trend that we embrace by breaking out. The Swiss industry was very conformed. They were doing conformism. They, they, they followed each other. I even dare to say herd like behavior. So what do I'm driving at? So two collab projects I'm working on, one you and I are working for trts. I won't say what brand, but I'm adamant to get Pear d' Ange in a watch. And Pear d' Ange comes from coral. So I want a skin angel skin, like pink in a watch. So that's pastel. And my brother and I with Ace are working on a deep brown. I wouldn't say mocha chocolate ish color. So it's very diverse. But the beauty of it is, is that everything is possible. And that's what I meant when I'm boxing in. And me personally, how can I not have a Tutti Frutti watch? And the highest one on my list, no, it's not a rainbow Daytona. It's a fourth dial, Archinaut. So every email I get from Archinaut, I get gibberish. I'm like, oh, probably my forte Tutti Frutti dial is in there. So I'm waiting for the right pattern. And that's my segue to your second question. Pictures. I don't think we're by far done with it. We've only started. So we came from base dials, flat dials, brass dials that have an anodization, coloring, whatever. Then we went to crazy colors. Rose engine turned is totally back. Look at the straum collab we did. That dial was awesome. And the beauty of it, the segue for that, I think, was the stone dial. So stone dials have patterns in them. Fort died has patterns in them. And that create a stepping stone for both consumers and brands. Consumers demanded it. Brands brought the goods by doing textures from stones that have a bit of texture, then man made textures. Enamel has textures. And one of my favorite one was the chapek. I forgot the name. Promise, I think is the Japanese garden or the drip effect. The. The ripple effect in the pond. You know what that I mean, is the promise, right?

A (40:01)

It was a promenade. And I think it's the got dough. I think it is. Yeah. I want to see them do a red one called, like, got sang, like drop of blood or something instead of drop of water. I think that would be really, really cool. I'd love to work with them on that Halloween project. Yeah, why not? Halloween watches. They science gimmicky and glib, but honestly, they're kind of cool. I mean, there are some brands that do it really well. Like, obviously, Konstantin Chekin has done it exceptionally well, and I think Arja could do it extremely well as well.

B (40:30)

Awake, Awake. Listen to you. Their most recent drop was the tribute to Kill Bill with blood on the dial.

A (40:37)

Blood splatters on the dial. Yeah, that was niche, but, I mean, awake are flying right now, so I think they could sell something to anybody. So, yeah, interesting. Talking about colors, textures, things you've seen on the dialogue. We seem to be in an era of refinement where everything's just getting better from a quality perspective because our understanding of these techniques are improving. The cost of those of many techniques is dropping in some ways. What about Lume, though? Because Lume has been a source of joy and frustration for many watch collectors over the years. You know, it's something we all love. Makes us feel like little kids. We love glow in the dark stuff. But even great brands have struggled sometimes to have good Lume performance. Lume that has similar strength and duration on the hands and indexes, and there are technical, practical reasons for that. But the developments by RC TriTech in Teufen in Switzerland are significant. This year, they have made strides in improving their red spectrum lumes. So we might see a bit more diversity in Colors that are available and also functional. Do you think that's something that the audience will receive positively or will they just take it for granted along with everything else?

B (41:51)

So, interesting question. And I've. I've been pondering that the last year. The. The fun facts is that you and I individually work with the legends of Lumen industry. You work with Black Badger, James. He pushed the envelope on Loom. And I've worked with Ming this year and Ming pushes the envelope on Loom. He brought the first white loom. And, and then I said to myself, and, and, and, and the blue fin by ming won a GPHE two years ago. Very popular. In 25, I bought one. In 25 I wear one. And the funny thing is the kid in me still loves Loom. And obviously it has a functional element because they play with four colors of lume on the bluefin. And it works. Kids love it. I love it. And when I talk to other collectors, it still does it for them. So it's not a marketing gimmick. So my question, my answer to your question is very simple. Yes. And I embrace more colors and I hope red will work.

A (43:03)

So do I. At least if we can't get red popping, then orange seems to be on the way with the new X. I think it's x1 or x3.x3 maybe grade lume from Tritech. So let's move on to straps and buckles. This is an area in which there is perhaps not as much innovation as we would like to see. There have been a couple of brands in recent years and the two that pop to mind are Louis Monet and and Araj, who have done very nice micro adjusts on fold over deployance, which is a difficult thing to work with, but they've really come up with a nice system. The Orage system is superbly intuitive and works very well. It's very secure. We've seen other brands try to come up with micro adjusts. Obviously Rolex has got the glide lock, which is superb. Fortis has got a very robust ratcheting mechanism on their bracelets. What else stands out to you as leaders in that space? And what more do we need to see?

B (44:08)

I want to give a shout out to Rafael from Formex. The biggest news for his brand this year was the fact that he created a micro adjustment full ceramic bracelet and clasp. So that's something that pops into my mind. I am very happy. A lot of brands got underway. Omega was really lagging with the new Planet Ocean. You've mentioned earlier, they made a bit of Progression, but still too thick and chunky and sharp. So Omega, please keep on working. I want to maybe deviate a bit. What really does it for me as a collector is when brands design their own buckle. And that really, really does it to me. One that always led the show was nomosis. Beautiful buckles. And I pay attention to it. Hermes does it in London at the end of the year. I went to an event and I forgot his name. Mea culpa. It's a guy that works for Richard Bank. It is his, basically his apprentice. He started his own watch. It's basically an emerald cut case. He, he's a designer and that buckle was stunning. I have to look up the name and I'll post it in the community. So that's a tip or request from me to the brands. Guys pay more attention to buckles, which they're doing, but I'm also talking about regular Tang buckles.

A (45:39)

Yeah. That attention to detail does not go unnoticed in a luxury sphere like watchmaking. Absolutely. And even if it's just a slightly modified shape with your wordmark or logo on it, it can make all the difference in the world. The last thing you want to do is try and pedal a $5,000 watch with an off the shelf buckle. It just doesn't fly. You know, your buckle should touch on your case. It should pull the whole concept around your wrist. There shouldn't be any stone left on turn when it comes to watch design. And seeing this advancement in adjustability is a great thing. I'm very pleased about it.

B (46:15)

So I wanted to ask you, Rob, case sizes, is it a thing? Is it do. Do you see seismic changes in case shape? Does it even matter? Is it good? We're all over the place. Are we even all over the place with case sizes? What's your take on that?

A (46:33)

Yeah, I think we are all over the place with case sizes now. I think that the, the main casualties of the push to smaller diameters have been those gargantuan pieces, 45 millimeters plus, which used to be quite common in the early 2000s and the tens at least. But now they seem to have gone away. There does seem to still be a call for them from corners of the industry and that shouldn't be ignored. I think the advantage of this pendulum swinging very far towards smaller diameters as a standard. And when we say smaller, we're not talking 34, 33, we're talking more like sub 40, you know, as kind of the baseline, as the median. That pendulum will swing back a little bit because you know, we're talking to a very small audience. The global watchmaking audience is minute. We hear from a vocal minority cyclically about what they're lacking. But if we serve them and ignore the people that weren't complaining to begin with, then obviously we're going to have to go back in that direction at some point to serve them. Also for me, case sizes are really tied to the nature of the watch itself. So there are some watches that should be big, like a Mudmaster, like even a planet ocean. Although the reduction in size for me is quite palatable. It could get away with being massive. Certain Breitlings could be enormous. You know, these things make sense. A datejust I've always said it shouldn't be above 36. Some people need it at 41 for their wrist size, but you don't want a 45mil datejust just doesn't work. It would just look like a dinner plate. It would look ridiculous. Nomos tends to operate in smaller sizes. It has a great appeal for that reason. So I think the brands should maybe not be so obsessed with trying to hit every diameter that's available to them and focus more on what demographic their watches appeal to and providing them with the most likely diameters that match up with their lifestyle. So what I'm saying is there's space for multiple brands to exist. Not every brand needs to occupy every wrist diameter. They should, in fact probably try and polarize themselves into one area or another and become specialists in that field rather than watering down their broth.

B (48:56)

Taking it very interesting. Taking it completely. Hotel luxury, a brand that came to my mind is global Forsey. They can't do small either because it's not in their DNA.

A (49:08)

But they don't have to either. They don't have to because there's not. There's not a wide demand for Greubel Forsey. Now, that's not to say that not everybody in the industry would take a grebord for, say, if they were offered one. Of course they would.

B (49:19)

But a very, very, very, very, very.

A (49:21)

Small percentage of people can afford to buy a Gribble Forsey. It's not just about being able to afford it, it's not even about being able to wear it. It's about what you spend your money on when you have that money to spend. And Grubel Forsey is, it's a lab on the wrist. It's a horological marvel. It's not about wearability. It never has been, it never will be. You know, it's. It's a testament to the craft. And just like a Jacob and Co, because of their highly animated displays, on occasion they need to be big because there's just not space for the components that they want to put into those watches in a smaller diameter. So those pieces, they're on an island. They're not really part of this discussion. You know, we're talking about like, oh, what should the median size of a Breitling Superocean or an Omega Seamaster 300M or a Rolex Submariner or a TAG Heuer Aquaracer be? We're not talking about whether or not Hublot or Greubel Forsey or Harry Winston needs to create a 34 millimeter watch. Are we.

B (50:22)

Agreed? But that begs the question, does Rolex need four sizes in the Oyster Perpetual? I totally agree with you that the datejust has always been 36 day dates for a long period as well. They've flirted with 41 both in the datejust and the day date didn't work for them. You see also market values are coming down on those pieces. So let's go the opposite way. So Longines Omega Rolex for some categories in their collections, they make so many sizes. Is that needed?

A (50:58)

Again, it comes down to your demographic target. And if you've got a massively broad audience that are interested in buying these watches, then you need to supply a broader selection of diameters. But there aren't that many. In terms of the watchmaking landscape en masse, There aren't that many brands that have that bigger audience. If you look in the independent space, most brands have got a very small but dedicated audience. And so they're kind of not immune to the conversation, but they're somewhat above it in the sense that we don't need to hit every market because not every market is looking at our watches. So to answer your question, does Rolex need the op in four sizes? Yeah, it does, because Rolex is the most famous watch brand in the world. One of the most famous brands full stop in the world. And you know, they can't pull the datejust down into like a 31 because of the caliber, because the date would be illegible and it wouldn't really make any sense. But plenty of women and some men would want to wear a 31 millimeter Oyster Perpetual Rolex because of the name. And so, yeah, it makes sense that it's offered in that sphere. Yeah, it absolutely does because that Rolex is more of a commodity rather than an art piece in the vein of the Greubel foresight.

B (52:16)

Interesting. I think you and I can go on for hours. Maybe let's do one or two more. What would you like to address in the context of 2026? Do we want now to continue on brands? We just discussed Rolex as a nice segue from sizes to what brands should do. Maybe, Rob, I would love to hear very quickly, like a gunfire, questioning, speed dating style thing. What do you hope to see from specific brands?

A (52:54)

You know, that is actually a topic that we could spend an hour on because we've got a list of brands that we want to discuss and I think that maybe we should hold onto that one for the next episode. You're right, the Rolex conversation did lead us down that track for sure. But I mean, I'd love to talk about 1012 Brands and I think that that's probably something for next week. What I think we should probably wrap up on is in this episode is I think we touched on collabs pretty effectively earlier, so we'll leave that one. But maybe marketing initiatives in 2026. What kind of communication strategies do we think brands will be pursuing? Do we think that we're going to see more partnerships, more product placement? Do we think we're going to see more apps being developed by brands so they have a direct link to their consumers? Where we see a reversion to print media to try and create separation in an ever increasingly digital world? What do you think? What do you think from a consumer perspective? What do customers enjoy when you hand over a watch to them in the store, when they unbox it for the first time? What's the feeling you get from them that they like about the way this watch has been communicated to them and presented to them in person?

B (54:05)

Very interesting question. And I don't even want to spend maybe too much time what I think they're going to do. I think you and I should maybe share what we think they should do to. But before we do, to answer your question is there is a split in what brands want and what consumers need? Why? To answer your question about the retail experience, brands don't so much focus in their communication on wrist shots and lifestyle photography. Why am I addressing this? You and I were adamant to create three sets of photography for our most recent collab. Collabs took us time, took us a lot of effort, money and coordination to get it to the best photographers. And we chose three different photographers for these three sets of pictures, which a lot of brands I think lag on. They don't do it enough. So I would like product photography. You need a soldier Shot that's a straight picture that's good for E Com, et cetera, for product pages on e commerce website. Then you want technical pictures means photographs highlighting technical specifications of a watch. So from an angle from left, right, bottom. And then you want lifestyle photography. How does it look on models? So that's what we call usually lifestyle photography. That's set two and set three is a hybrid set of pictures that's in between technical and lifestyle, meaning wrist shots. I still hear sometimes brands say in their guidelines it's not allowed to shoot a watch on a male wrist with a lot of hair. I'm like, what the F. And why would I think about this is that I took a very quick snapshot of my Ming Blue fin on my wrist while at the gym because I remembered I forgot to post the W O M W what's what's on my wrist today watch in the TRTS community. So I posted that and then I'm like, okay, let me go. Also post it on my IG stories and Ming shared it. But a lot of brands won't share it because I have a lot of hair on my wrist. And I've seriously sat in on a marketing debrief by a brand telling us we're not allowed to shoot watches with alcohol and not on hairy wrists. So I stuck up my hand. So you're. I said to them, you're basically telling me I'm never ever allowed to post your watch on my wrist on social media. And then they all shut up. That, oh, oh, yeah. No, that's not what we mean. I said, yeah, that's what you mean. You need to rethink what you're saying.

A (56:59)

So.

B (57:00)

So brands invest a lot in photography. They. But not enough. They need to step up their game, in my humble opinion, in that sense. Because what do consumers need and what do they need from the retailers is there is a dissonance between what they see online. Even if they're wrist shots, they're maybe not in proportion. That's why you need the lifestyle photography pictures from afar. So when you see somebody from 2 meters away, how does the watch look on their wrist? That's what you did in Copenhagen. That beautiful shoot you did with the C Strong, our Alpina Collab. That was an awesome photo shoot. And obviously the third set I'm talking about, we. We went to bowl of Salmon, shout out to Tom beautiful set of pictures he's created there that when they come into the store, if brands don't do it properly, we've wasted a consumer's Time, meaning we lured them in with marketing both the brand and the retailer, and he or she puts the watch on their wrist and it totally doesn't match the brand identity with the brand image in reality. Rob, back to you.

A (58:10)

So that's kind of what you're. That does answer my question, actually, because what you're saying is rather than all of the bump that can go around the watch, like what's included in the box or you know, what kind of universe the product presentation builds, it's literally the watch on the wrist that they want to see. That's why they come to a brick and mortar retailer to see if it works for, for them. What you're saying is if brands want to cut out the middleman, as in you, they need to diversify their image sets so that people have a better idea of what that watch actually looks like in real life, on real risks, in real situations. Right?

B (58:44)

Correct. And to prolong this discussion or maybe add something to my story, is a lot of brands enough fans of real Instagram, sorry, YouTube content creators that create, you know, these overhead shots that they just put a camera and then talk over their video where they not so much in unboxing, but they try on the watch, you know, these eight to ten minute videos. So. So this is an example to. I think it's called the real watch brother or something. The many of these not mainstream content creators that brands frown upon, but these are authentic content creators that often don't ask money. They don't want money, they just want access to watches. And brands dismiss them. These YouTube videos are very important to consumers. They don't want the shiny. And this is not criticism to Adrian Barker. Yeah, he's maybe the number one. He started as this organic content creator shooting beautiful YouTube videos of trying on watches and explaining them, giving pros and cons. And I'll just end my rant, sorry for going on so long is brands need to start accepting criticism. You can't only have positives out there without negatives. Let content creators make a swot analysis of the product. One for somebody, a disadvantage can be an advantage. Talk about big cases. For some people it's not good, but for the other, it's a selling point. So more objective. Accept objective reviews.

A (60:34)

I read a very interesting comment the other day and we'll end on this regaling of my recent experience. Someone said when you're reading reviews for a restaurant or a hotel or a product specifically, you should ignore the five star and you should ignore the one star. So you know the one stars Everything is wrong in the world. You know, they want the world to burn. The five stars, they're happy, but they're likely not that critical. They don't add much color to the story. He said, look at the fours and the threes, you know, because there you've got somebody who's taken the time to actually make a judgment and say, okay, well, I'd give this 80%, that's a huge rating, or even 60% is very, very good. And they're gonna have reasons why. They're gonna say something like, this is exceptionally well made. It's delivered on time. It was, you know, beautifully presented, but it's a bit big and it moves around on my wrist. So if you've got a. A narrow topped wrist, avoid this watch. Now that's useful, right? That's useful information and it feeds into what you're saying. And finish it off with one comeback and then we'll wrap up the show.

B (61:39)

Perfect, what you just said. And just to add that it blows my mind if brands don't reply to feedback, ratings, social media comments, let alone the positive. What about the negative? Because. And those brands that still censor feedback, shame on you. Really, really shame on you. Because the negative ones are the best ones. At Ace Jewelers, we answer everything. Every social media comment, every review. Positive, negative, we always answer. And what blew my mind a decade ago, we gained consumers at Ace Jewelers because they loved the fact how we replied to the negative ratings. So that's something to mention. And maybe those that are into Gen Alpha, not Gen Z, but Gen Alpha, shout out to Apres de Mont, the agency, and to Scarlett Baker with her magazine Heist Out. These guys embrace criticism and that's the future.

A (62:42)

Criticism is just an opportunity, you know, it's an opportunity to grow and get better and also to reply with grace and professionalism. So, yeah, the last thing you want to do is get down in the mud and fight with somebody that just wants you to not exist. But it is always a chance to show the best face of the brand. So that was very, very interesting. Another hour of 2026 recorded for your ears and there'll be more to come, don't you worry. We've got a long list of topics that we want to address, things that have been fed to us from the community. You know how to get in touch with Alon and I. Our personal Instagrams are B, e n J o S E P H and mine is at R O B N u D D S. You can find David at D, A v A U C H e r and Scarlet at S C A r L I N T H e S H I r e that's Skaal in the Shire. The official handle of the RealTime show is herealtime show and the website, as mentioned before, is www.therealtime.show. please get in touch with us and give us ideas for new episodes. Write in with your questions, Comments Feedback doesn't all have to be positive. We love the negative comments as well because they give us an opportunity to improve the show for everybody. We will be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.