B (4:48)

What an excellent way to frame that answer. I'm gonna piggyback on your ingenuity there and use the price, product promotion and place structure to respond to you. You breezed past the product question as to whether it was good or not. I would say that what we saw in December, I think it was a December or November, the chronic chronometry 1 is what Breguet should be doing. Now. Let me caveat that by saying I don't like that watch very much. I think it's a bit grotesque, it's a bit ugly, not as refined or elegant as I think my, my emotional connection to Breguet suggests it should be. However, I also wasn't a huge aesthetic fan of the Marie Antoinette and I still think it's one of the greatest timepieces of all time. And that is the standard to which I would always hold Breguet. And so I think that since Max asked his question 60 odd episodes ago and sorry for taking so long to get to it. Max, it's, it's, it's been a busy period. Breguet's done the right thing. Breguet has dropped a product that finally positions Breguet where it should be in terms of the industry hierarchy. Now it doesn't matter to me that that watch is not hugely commercial because there won't be that many of them and they'll be even, well, not fewer. There will be almost as few people who can actually afford that piece. This is perfect for me for what Breguet is so product. I think there's too many Breguet and I think they're too accessible. And I mean that in terms of ubiquity and also in terms of price. The second point, in most cases we want people to buy our watches because the people on the street wearing our watches are the ambassadors in the real world. They are walking billboards. They are testimonies till the day they die. Because obviously they want to justify why they've just spent an inordinate amount of money on something completely unnecessary. I don't think Breguets should be able to be bought by barely anyone. I think that they should be really the truest of all Halo products and Halo brands. For the Swatch group, they should be a marker point that trickles down in terms of reputational gain to the other Swatch Group brands. It should be a developmental powerhouse. It should be Swatch Groups, Formula One, but not in any way crass or overt or showy in the mold of Hublot, a brand we both love. So don't take any of those adjectives as negatives. Now, promotion. You're absolutely right. You nailed it. Nobody gives a flying F about Breguet. Nobody. Nobody gives a flying tourbillon about Breguet. Should I say probably a bit more decorous? They need to get to that point. How do they get to that point? By not letting people buy their watches. Now, normally this is not my strategy at all. But Breguet is not a brand on an island. It is part of an ecosystem. It is the number one brand of the Swatch Group, or at least it's supposed to be, but it isn't. I hear more about Tissot than I do about Breguet. There should be more Tissots on risk than Breguet's. But there should be more chatter about Breguet 100%. Because what the Swatch Group has there is a license to exploit history. And if we know one thing about watchmaking and successful watchmaking brands is that exploiting history is a great way to sell products and to raise your standing in the minds of consumers. Place interesting. Barely anywhere, shut down the boutiques. Turn down all the. Turn all the Breguet boutiques into our passion stores or like multi grand Swatch Group retailers or Hamilton boutiques or Tissot Experience stores, whatever. Do something with that space and pull Breguet back into the workshop. I want a tiny little atelier in the Swiss mountains. I have to drive an hour and a half through winding roads to get to. To be able to stand at the shoulder of a Breguet watchmaker and observe mastery in motion. So that for me is what Breguet needs to do. I think that the recent release has been the a step in the right direction at long last and long may it continue. Any more points, David?

A (9:06)

No, totally agree. I think those were great complimentary points. And I would just say that this question comes up, comes up a lot in the context of Blancpain, another Swatch Group brand. And I think you probably make the case that Vici, which is another group, it's not Swatch Group, but I think it's in the same boat. So the watch industry seems to get in its own lane and some of the brands have been left behind and they shouldn't be. They deserve more than that. So hopefully we'll see, see that happen soon.

B (9:33)

Let's move on to the next question. This is the first one from Lawrence. We might have time to get to a second from him. Thanks for sending these two in. Again, it's a question we need to address rather promptly because things are changing. They're not quite as devastatingly impactful as they were a month or two ago. But Lawrence asks, can the tariff war cause supply chain distortions that pose an existential threat for smaller and direct to consumer brands? Take it away.

A (10:01)

There's a lot to unpack there. Rob, correct me if I'm wrong, the Swiss watch industry was at 39% and they've been lowered to 15% is my understanding.

B (10:12)

Yeah, that's. I think that's about right. It was either 39 or 35, but it was absolutely prohibitive. I think there was a couple of different tariffs and taxes working in, in tandem. Yeah, it was horrible.

A (10:22)

So that this gets really difficult because we were asked the question, asked for independence. And what you have to understand is that tariffs affect goods going into the US So the first question you have to ask yourself if you're an independent brand is where does your revenue come from? Now, I've kind of asked this here and there and it turns out that for a lot of brands, yeah, the US is a huge market for them. If it's not, that shields you from it. The other thing to keep in mind is that tariffs don't necessarily make their way to the consumer. There's ways that it can be mitigated. So the retailer, for example, might eat margin, the brand might eat margin to keep market share. I mean, there's all kinds of strategic options that you could, that you can come up with that don't necessarily mean that you're going to take that impact right away. Now, having said that, if you're looking at large brands versus smaller ones, a lot of those flexible options that you might have, if you're part of a big group, you're not going to have. Actually, if you, if you're a small company, you're just going to basically be given the terms that you're going to have to work with and make it work that way. The other thing I would say is that actually I'm not entirely sure and it's. Yeah, this is very regional. But if we're talking Switzerland specifically, it's not really the tariffs like the Swiss franc, it's the currency issue. I mean, the Swiss franc is really expensive. And if you look geopolitically at what's happening with regards to the dollar and what might happen. And we're going way off topic here, but I think because the watch industry supply chain is so globalized, I'm not entirely sure the tariffs are the biggest or certainly the only thing to watch out for. I think the currency exchange is going to be an issue going forward as well.

B (12:15)

Yeah, the Swiss franc is ridiculously strong at the moment, isn't it? We always used to tie it one for one to the euro, but it's actually accelerating away from it now. It's no longer a simple conversion. Some good points. Yeah. What I've noticed big brands doing is actually establishing entities in the US to avoid the tariffs, which is all well and good if you have that kind of financial clout. Impossible for Many Smaller and D2C brands. To answer Lawrence's question succinctly, yes, it could definitely pose an existential threat to smaller brands. I know this from a personal perspective with the brands that I work with. The vast majority, well, let's say majority, I'd say almost exactly 50% of consumers for every brand I work with, bar Fortis are U.S. based. Fortis is very strong in the DAC, Germany, Austria, Switzerland region, less so in the U.S. at the moment, but hopefully it will grow when they get their strategy locked in for North America. David?

A (13:13)

Yeah, just one comment. So that's interesting, Rob. The 50% is the number I have in mind as well when I think of what, like if you asked me to guess a breakdown, it's usually 50% US so it's interesting to hear that. The other thing though, when you mentioned entity. Now obviously entity is not workshop, but the reasoning behind these tariffs was that it would bring manufacturing back. Now let's just set aside the incredible difficulty of re resuscitating a US Watch manufacturing base because there was one before, there isn't now. But it reminds me of a move that LVMH did with Louis Vuitton. So they actually opened a workshop. So I grew up in Texas and I think the workshop was somewhere near San Antonio. And it brings to mind this idea like do people want made in America Louis Vuitton bags? I don't, I don't, I don't know because. So Rob, we talked about this on a previous episode. How much does magic count? Magic counts for a lot in the luxury goods industry. And I'm not sure that, and this is looking farther ahead, 50% of revenue is a huge thing to protect. Let's just for the sake of argument, assume that many Brands got together and said, let's make a facility we can share so we can bypass some of these tariffs. I don't know. And us, I think Made in America, this is my personal view. I think Made in America is not going to be as positive a label as it was before. But even if you set that aside, a watch that's made in Switzerland and was sold as Made in Switzerland is supposed to be made in Switzerland. That's part of the magic. And so these tariffs actually could be counterproductive in the case of a luxury good like a watch.

B (14:55)

I mean, there's a hidden problem for the Swiss or Swiss brands or any brand purporting to make Swiss watches. Huge amounts of their components come from the Far east, and it's the origin of the component that needs to be declared on the import documents to the US for them to assess the tariffs. And they don't do it particularly well. They break it down into things like the watch, which includes, like the case and the dial and hands and movement. No case, dial and hands, which of course can be made in different locations. The movement is separate. And then the bracelet, I think, is separate as well. And you have to apply nominal values to each of those components, and then the tariffs are assessed thereon. So if you have your cases made in Asia and you're buying your movements from Switzerland, and your bracelets, your bracelets are also made in Hong Kong, let's say you have to declare them separately. And so it's not just the Swiss tariffs that matter for smaller and D2C brands, it's also the Chinese ones, because most of their stuff, honestly, let's face it, if we're talking smaller and D2C, which is what the question specifically asks about, is coming from there. So it is an absolute minefield. Interesting you should say your feelings about American made. Now, I assume that that doesn't apply to every product. So, for example, I'm a fan of Ebbotsfield. You're a huge fan of Ralph Lauren. We would like these things to be made in the US Right? Not in Paris, but Louis Vuitton. We'd like to be made in Paris.

A (16:37)

So I think this is a broader question about outsourcing, which we've talked about before. Ideally, every country would sort of stick to its roots, but obviously, as they want to grow, they got to keep costs down. I mean, there's all that, but this is the Real Time show. Let's keep things real. I sound American. I am not. I. I will not buy anything as much as I can avoid it. I will not buy anything from America at this point in time, which is January 2025, for reasons that I think anyone else out there can. Can guess. I did, however, pick up on a comment online where someone said, I think in the future we're going to move away from Made in America and more towards, like, made in California or made in Portland or made in wherever. And I can see the appeal behind that. I can see the appeal. And with regards to Ralph Lauren, I think that's, we. That's probably a separate episode. I think Ralph Lauren represented Aspen well. Well, it represents what America aspires to be, which there. That's naive without being naive. I think there is something very, like, nice about that, which is why I think Ralph Lauren's done well. But, yeah, I think Made in America is, is going to be. Have its own set of connotations in the same way that Swiss made has its own connotations. And in luxury goods, those connotations are very important. That is most of the product.

B (17:56)

Very interesting. I would, I would be so compelled to buy things if they were made in X, Y, Z state, right? So if, if, if someone said, oh, you want to buy a Pendleton rug and it's made in Portland, Oregon? I'd be like, oh, yeah, that feels like I'm, I'm supporting a craft. If I want to buy some turquoise jewelry and it's made in Arizona, it's like, yeah, I absolutely want to support that.

A (18:19)

And taking it to watches, that was Shinola's big push. Like, apparently in Detroit, a lot of people have have watches because that was their thing was like. And in fact, going back to cars now, I think it was Dodge. Like, there was a big super bowl commercial years back and the tagline was brilliant. It was imported from Detroit, which I thought was fantastic because it gets to the heart of everything. And so, yeah, I think there is some interest in sort of really honing in on where you're from to separate yourself from the larger connotations.

B (18:49)

Isn't that funny? I love America. I've always been a huge Americaphile. That's maybe more of a controversial thing to say now than ever before in our lifetimes. At least there is negative feeling towards the States because a lot of people in Europe don't agree with a lot of the policies that have been implemented in Trump's second term, however domestically successful they may end up being. We'll see, I guess, in time. But nobody has ill feeling towards specific states that I'm aware of. I'm sure there's interstate rivalries. You know, maybe someone from Tennessee doesn't want to buy something from Kentucky or something, I don't know. Or like Alabama and Arkansas have got some beef. I don't know, whatever. But what I mean is if you say it's made in America and you go to, let's say we go to 10 people on the street, a cross section of society, and say, would you buy this? Good. It is made in America. Which implies, of course, it's benefiting the American economy and people in America, I bet you a lot of people would say no. But if you went there and said, this is made in Connecticut, this is made in Nevada, this is made in Idaho, I don't think that anyone would come to that question with a preconceived negativity. What do you think about that?

A (19:58)

I think people nowadays, like, I'm from Texas, Texas has an outsized reputation. I mean, that's, that's part of their thing. And people would still make the connection. It's in the US But I do think, however, that in a couple years time, if we're trying to get over this, as we're hopefully getting over this, you have a much better shot at removing an obvious barrier by doing that. So, yes, I think it's an interesting way of looking at it.

B (20:27)

You know, sometimes when you talk about where you're from, remind me of my ex girlfriend. She had an American mother, a French father, was born in London and grew up in Canada. And so within like one sentence, she'll be from one place or another, depending on who's winning at what sport, at what time. She was Canadian or French or whatever. It was great for me because I got to go out with four girls at once. But you are. Where were you born?

A (20:50)

So I was born in Singapore, traveled around a bunch, raised, raised in Texas. And I am half English and half French.

B (20:58)

Yeah, okay, Right. So that's it. If anyone gets confused about David's origin story, that's it. It's a, it's a cool one, that's for sure. Born in Singapore, half French, half English, American. Raised. Wow. I have a couple of things to say. Firstly, it's January 2026, not 2025. Sorry to break into you.

A (21:15)

It's been a weird year.

B (21:16)

Yeah, it has. Yeah. And my big point about this, it's a little bit glib, but I would say this. Tariffs aren't about tariffs, they're about confidence. So a lot of people buying watches have a lot of disposable income. Not everybody, but I'd say most people buying, you know, watches in the four, five figures have disposable income. They could probably afford the tariffs, but they don't want to pay them for a couple of reasons. One, they feel they're getting a bad deal. Two, they don't know if what they're buying will hold its value. If the tariffs disappear, then instantly the price they paid is over market. And three, they literally see the monetary difference and say, well, no, I'm not spending that extra cash. The biggest one for me is this idea of confidence, this idea that the market is not performing as we want it to. Everything's destabilized. It's concerning. We don't know what the future holds. Even I have stopped buying things and instead decided to hold much more cash than I've ever held before in my life just to buffer myself against some uncertainty in the future. Of course, I don't know if I can trust all the banks that my money's stored in either. I don't know what's going to happen there. But you know, as conservative as I can be, I am being right now and I think that that is a huge problem. If the tariffs disappeared overnight or when they dropped to 15%, we saw a lot of people sort of step up to the plate and buy, but it didn't really return to pre tariff levels. And I still don't think that that 15% is monetarily necessarily the reason. I think it's just people are being cautious and stepping off. What do you think about that?

A (23:04)

No 100%. Look, you know, the post World War II order, and we're going to go way off on a tangent here, but the post World War II order was built on the idea of trade. And I had a history professor in high school who I still remember, he said if countries trade with each other, they don't go to war with each other. Or like the maxim with America is two countries that have McDonald's in them don't go to war. And that's being broken apart. And to me it makes no sense because the whole point of trade is that I can do something well, I can't do what you do well, but hey, let's work something out where we can both come out winning. And the point of these tariffs is as they're applied now, because there are way, there are reasons that you would want to apply tariffs. I mean, it's not because they're there that's the problem, but it's because the tariffs as they're applied now are a signaling Somehow that the US has gotten a raw deal and they don't want to trade anymore. And so to your point, Rob, the tariffs are not being put up because someone's dumping into the US they're not being put up because they're protecting some industry that's critical to the US infrastructure. They're just being put up as another way of overturning the world order. And that's why things feel uncertain at this point.

B (24:16)

I mean, trade is everything, right? I was thinking about this the other day. I was listening to a podcast about the Norman invasion, and I was thinking, imagine living in a time, and maybe we don't have to imagine too hard at the minute where you could just go in and take a nation by force. You can never sleep well if you've taken something by force, someone's gonna come for you at some point. It's the only sustainable way to build a society or even a civilization, if we should aspire to that, is to work with other people for mutual gain. There is no point. If you think about it on a macro level, it's crazy, the disparity of wealth in the world that billionaires haven't figured out that holding all that unnecessary wealth. And it is unnecessary because only so much you can do with money is only gonna bring fire and brimstone to your door eventually. Like, share it. Like lift up the world. How are we in a situation in 2026 where we have major powers just running into nations and taking them by force? It's bizarre.

A (25:16)

This is where, you know, we're keeping it real, because what we're saying would not get us invited to many Swiss boardrooms, I don't think. But maybe not, I guess to close the point off, Rob, because I think we might have one or two more questions left. I do want to say that what you've raised is interesting because the original question was, how will these tariffs affect smaller brands? Well, I think actually they're going to affect everyone because of this idea of uncertainty, because of the fact that people. You don't buy luxury goods when you feel, like, personally threatened. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is, as far as the distribution of wealth, that is how the watch industry has survived and made its. Made its money the last couple years. And we've talked about this a lot. We'll save this for another show. But I think that could be its undoing. In times like this, if you're only catering to one. One specific segment, it's a. It's an operational risk.

B (26:02)

We shall See? Indeed. Moving on to a question from our dear Richard. He says we've quite a bit of talk, especially on Hodinkee, about watch sizes. Is it not just a question of fashion? And as it goes, fashion is cyclical. Do you see this as an opportunity for entry level micro brands? I suppose. Let's just add some context to this. What Richard is prob referring to directly is the fact that in the past few years we've seen a trend towards smaller cases being made because there was a vocal cry for that. Whether it came from a majority or a very vocal minority or not is questionable. And now we are starting to hear a little bit of chatter about bigger watches returning. So, David, where do you stand on the subject of watch size?

A (26:48)

So this is something we've talked about a lot, Rob, you even have a formula for this to an extent, so I look forward to hearing you explain it again. But look, my thing with watch sizing first of all is objective, which is I use the Tudor black bay because it's the one that always comes up. Like people say, oh, it's too thick. Well, no, it's just it was designed a certain way. I mean, when you're making a watch, everything has to be tooled. Specifically, there's all kinds of decisions that have to be made. So someone made that decision for a reason. And if you don't agree with it, that's it. It's tough. But it's not too big. It's sized for whatever it need to be needed to be when it was designed. Having said that, I did. I have heard this was years ago when this started to come up. Someone made the point that if you look at fashion brands, so like Ralph Lauren, for example, or any one of these sort of companies that makes clothing accessories, they offer different sizes. So why could a watch company not offer different sizes? And Tudor is a great example. They have done that. Omega is doing that a bit more. But there's no reason that a watch should have to exist in one diameter. Now, obviously there's proportion issues, but you can work around those. You can have different diameters. And as far as. So that's the second point. Third point is, does this present an opportunity for micro brands? I think yes. The whole point of a micro brand is to serve a niche. So if you want to get attention today, for example, and I was just thinking aloud, let's say, Rob, I come to you and I'm like, I'm going to make men's watches 30 millimeters and under, and I'm going to design Them in such a way that the size is almost an afterthought. Like, I'm going to use colors or shapes or whatever that. Whatever it happens to be. But my thing is going to be small watches. That is what I'm going to do, and that is going to be my calling card. Yeah, it's totally possible to think of a scenario where that could happen.

B (28:35)

Absolutely. I mean, I have two brand concepts and I've talked sparingly to you about them because, you know, I don't want to distract us from the goal of recording the Real Time show. But one of them was to make a watch that was inspired by a 31 millimeter, a Kienzler that I wear on a Forstner bracelet. And I call it my granddad watch. The name of the model, I wanted to call it the Opa, which is German for grandpa, because opa, for some reason it looks like a watch name because it reminds me of Ops or something. Like, it looks like it sits well on the dial. And I thought I could make an entire brand based around just getting guys to wear 31 millimeter watches again. And there's a surprising number of occasions when I go to this. Like right now, I'm wearing my Glacier Canal Chronograph 1970s vibing orange. And it's a pretty big, square watch. It's massive on the wrist in comparison to a 31 millimeter manual and Kienzler. And yet I wear both watches, and I wear them both frequently, depending on the occasion. It's a dream with a suit with a cough, you know, because I like bottom cuffs. I'm not a French cuff guy, so I like them on the smaller bottoms so that they're nice and fitted and they don't ride up on my arm too much. And that Kienzler slides right underneath it. So you're absolutely right. There's a market for the very small, but there's similarly a market for the very, very big. And I think that it's just a question of brands finding their lane and producing products in it. I do not agree with every single watch being available in every single size unless it is designed to be exactly that. And that's my second brand concept, to have a single watch design that is available in multiple diameters, very close to one another, so you get a perfect fit. The whole idea around it is more tailoring the watchmaking. And I hopefully will expand that brand and release it in the next couple of years when I have some more free time to focus on it. I think That's a great concept. What I don't think is a great concept is having the oyster perpetual in 29, 31, 34, 36, 39, 41, and whatever else they may feel the need to make it. Because I think that that watch loses a lot when you stretch it and contract it across those diameters. I do think that designs, despite obviously being able to increase or decrease them proportionally, retain exactly the same proportions. I do think they have a sweet spot for the style of the. And for example, I think a datejust is too big at 41. I think it's perfect at 36. And I would say a Breitling Avenger at 43 is absolutely fine. I wouldn't want it at 36. I mean, just. You could shrink it, but it would look ridiculous. Right? Certain things need to be certain diameters. And I just think that brands need to remember that and remember who they are and to ensure that they are offering products that people want to buy, but not that every brand should try and offer every product that people want to buy. Not necessary. So, yes, Richard, there is absolutely an opportunity. As David said, microbrands exist to fill these niches, and they can be very specific, and they don't need a huge volume of sales to make it work. If there is a vocal call for xyz, these are the brands that need to fill it. So, yeah, let's hope that we see some more variety. Next question. I know you're on the clock here, David, but we maybe have time for this one more. This is from Andrea. She says Rob frequently talks about his love of German watchmaking, and David is known as a French watch fanatic. As I'm new to the hobby, I don't really understand how these styles differ from Swiss watches. What are the key design aspects, if there are any. And why do you love the watches you do so much? So, David, I think it's an easier question for me to answer, but we'll start with you. What is a French watch and why do you love them so much?

A (32:24)

You had to make that the last question around, like the differences in horological schools of the. Geez. All right, okay, look, I. I think the. The best analogy might be clothing. Like in the US There is a stereotype of what a European looks like, and these are stereotypes. I'm just speaking in extremes to make a point. And in Europe, there is an image of what an American looks like, and they're both Western areas, like Europe and the US Have a lot in common, but the people look different. You can get different objects that serve the same functions. So like if I said an American car you might think pickup truck. If I said European car, you might think Volkswagen Golf. Like same thing, very different. And so that's what it comes down to. And Rob, I think I know what you're alluding to when you say German watchmaking. Simpler. But when I say French watches, there's definitely a design. What's the word? There's, there's an emphasis on design and part of that is just because like the industry has been torn down so you can't really do as much as you could in Switzerland or maybe in Germany. But there is definitely a French design. If you look at icons like the OPN L knife, the Rafale jet fighter, I mean all kinds of sit, the Citroen ds, like there's a French aesthetic which I like, but also for me it's just, yeah, like I'm sort of jealous sometimes of someone who lives in Japan. They get to wear Seiko. Like that's their watch and I want that for myself. And that's not that I can't appreciate other countries contributions. But I'm French, I want to see the French do cool stuff. I'm English, I want to see the English and the British do cool stuff. And I think the more watches we have out there, the better. But in terms of differences, you have to remember there's same things, but there's, there's different styles and different technical desires. And I'm going to turn it over to Rob because I think Germany is probably the most obvious example of differences in style and technical emphasis as well.

B (34:21)

Yeah, I do agree that it's much easier to define German watchmaking because I think the, the history is clearly defined. Like it has a starting point basically with Ferdinand Adolf Lange and he was a huge fan of the three quarter plate or the three quarter bridge which was very common in pocket watch design, but not so comm. In Swiss movement architecture. So German movements, traditional German movements, they look quite different from Swiss stuff. The French is probably more of an aesthetic flourish on the exterior rather than technical traits that they still carry forward to this day. Also the use of German silver or nickel silver in movement construction in Germany was quite common. Brands like Lange still follow it. We, we see it used sparingly around the industry. Zeitwinkel, although it sounds German, is actually a Swiss in the German speaking part of, of Switzerland. And they have German silver movements as well which do extol some of those like older traits. I love the look of it. I love the warmth of German silver. I love the, the robustness and the very technical feel of a three quarter plate. It, it can be said to be less artful, but you know, there's a lot of space for great finishing. And In Glasseter, just 45 minutes from where I am sitting right now, they tend to decorate the plates with glacier ribbing, which is the German version of Geneva striping. And of course, for those that didn't know, this actually played a function. It was effectively a dust or dirt or oil trap. So that when the watch sustained an impact or there was dust ingress through the crown when it was open, or when oil skipped out of a jewel cup, it wouldn't run into the mechanism, it would actually be caught in the plate and sit still there. So it wouldn't interrupt the function of the watch. And for me that just adds a little bit more security in theory. I mean, and you know, everything in watchmaking is really a theoretical gain at this point because in practice a lot of the incremental changes we make to things like the escapement or, you know, jewels or finishing to, to try and trap dust or dirt are so marginal, they're almost negligible. But it's a theoretical exercise and one that I really believe in and one that I adore. And yeah, I think I'll always be a German watch lover for that reason. One brand I just want to touch on because it's, it does confuse me somewhat. I am in touch with them about this actually is Tutima, their top end stuff, which, you know, David, you and I had a three hour long conversation about Tutima in Geneva and we came up with some wonderful, wonderful ideas for the brand. We, we talked about it extensively from an aesthetic perspective, from a movement angle, they are extremely German. I feel. From a case design perspective, they feel more French because they're more flowing, they're more artful. I want more Teutonicism. Can you say that? Teutonic nature? I want it to be more German. I want it to be more angular, more straight lines, more hard angles. And I feel there's a disconnect between the interior and the exterior there. And I'd be interested just to know, just as a final thought from you, what you think would typify a French case. You can use any brand, any example that you want to give Andrea an idea of the kind of thing that you're talking about when you say a French design.

A (37:45)

I'm going to do that. I just want to piggyback on something you said. So German watchmaking There's an aesthetic, but I think the technical aspect is huge. So if you look at brands like Zinn, Damasco, they're just interested in offering the best because why would you not, why would you not have your watch go down to 500 meters and be totally scratch resistant? I mean, I really respect that. And the aesthetic is not for everyone. But if you're engineer minded like I am, or if you're, you know, if you're a trained watchmaker like Rob, there's a lot to respect in terms of like, this can do the job and then more. And I would just say that as you go through your watch appreciating journey, it'll become instantly apparent. The more you see, the more you're going to be like, oh, okay, this probably comes from here, there or there. In terms of a French watch, I'm just trying to think, is there a defining, is there one defining aesthetic? It's easy to cheat and say, well, Breguet was French and so Breguet is French. I don't think it's that so much. If you asked me today to define what a French watch looks like, I'd say actually off putting in the sense that not that you may not like it, but it's going to look really different from what you would expect. So a lot of the French companies. Oh, Tree Lobe, that's a great example. So Rob, you and I saw Tree Lobe's watch. The movement's amazing, but it's just, it's, it doesn't look like anything out there because they just kind of said like, we're French, we're going to have French design. Another example would be like Hermes, the H08. And really any Hermes watch, it's designed to be avant garde in a design way.

B (39:20)

That's the word. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (39:22)

Cartier is a Swiss brand, but they're French originally. So I think anything that looks off the beaten path, I wouldn't be surprised if it were French. It's not to say it will be, but I think the avant garde nature of the case design is something that is very French.

B (39:36)

Yeah, interesting. So pushing the boundaries, basically just exactly what we expect from the high haute couture houses of Paris and beyond. Very, very good. Okay, well, I believe we have to wrap things up there for this relatively short but I think information packed episode. David, thank you for joining me on the mic. I look forward to having you back again to answer some more questions because we actually only went through about half of the ones that we had lined up for today. Because we're chatterboxers. But that's I hope what you tune in for. Please tune in again. You can follow us along on Instagram therealtime Show. Send us a message either via that page or via the official website www.therealtime show. Please like follow, subscribe and share. We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.