The Realignment, Ep. 575 | Doug Most: Pragmatism in Action - WWII Shipbuilding, the Arsenal of Democracy, and Today’s Challenges

Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Marshall Kosloff
Guest: Doug Most (Boston University, author of Launching Liberty)
Main Theme: How the Liberty ship program during WWII illustrates American pragmatism, public-private partnership, and the blueprint for collective problem solving—lessons resonant with present-day challenges.

Episode Overview

Doug Most joins Marshall Kosloff to discuss his book Launching Liberty, focusing on one of WWII's most underappreciated achievements: the rapid mass-production of Liberty ships. This conversation draws connections between historical problem solving—epitomized in the pragmatic, metrics-driven shipbuilding effort—and today's calls for a renewed spirit of collective action in the face of daunting challenges. The discussion deconstructs how decisive leadership, public-private cooperation, and broad social mobilization converged in the Arsenal of Democracy, offering potential models for contemporary America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Framing WWII Shipbuilding: A Story of Problem Solving

• Problem-Solving Lens
  • Most positions the Liberty ship saga as a case study not just in engineering or production, but in reframing national crises as solvable problems.
  • Quote:

    “This is a story about problem solving. Specifically, it's about one problem, that problem being building and constructing the ships that actually allowed us to win the war via shipping, munitions, arms, soldiers, etc.”
    — Doug Most (03:45)

• Marshall's Commentary:
  • Pragmatism isn't moderation or centrism—it's ambition directed at breaking through bottlenecks.
  • Quote:

    “A lot of people code Niskanen as a centrist or moderate think tank. I've never been comfortable with the words centrist or moderate because they suggest a comfort with the status quo, a slowness in response, and a lack of ambition. All things that are dead ends in an era of populist backlash... The Liberty Ship story is fundamentally about problem solving.”
    — Marshall Kosloff (01:37)

The Scale of the Challenge, Defined

• Logistical Hurdles:
  Nazis were sinking 3-4 merchant ships per day; traditional shipbuilding took a year per ship—utterly inadequate.
  • Quote:

    “The Germans were knocking out three to four of these ships a day on average. So the actual problem is...how do you actually build enough of these ships when it's taking too long, when they're knocking out three to four a day.”
    — Marshall (05:48)

FDR, Unsexy Engineering, and “Ugly Ducklings”

• Leadership by Letting Go of Ego:

  • FDR prioritized scale and speed over perfection.
  • Liberty ships were mocked for being slow and “ugly,” but functionality trumped aesthetics.
  • Quote:

    "Roosevelt could have demanded the greatest ship ever...But he didn't do that. Instead, what he said was, I just need a lot of ships. I need quantity over quality, if you will..."
    — Doug Most (07:21)

  • Quote:

    "That's why the ships were nicknamed the Ugly Ducklings...dreadful looking objects...not pretty, not fast, but we produced 2,710 of them in the span of roughly less than three years."
    — Doug Most (07:55)

• Comparison to Germany:

  • Hitler obsessed over cutting-edge “Wunderwaffen” (wonder weapons), but couldn’t manufacture enough to alter the outcome.
  • Quote:

    "The question was not who could build the greatest tank ever...What really mattered...was the Germans could not build enough of them."
    — Marshall (09:11)

  • Hitler underestimated and mocked American manufacturing, thinking it all “Hollywood and glamour and glitz.”
    — Doug Most (10:54)

Engineering Feat: Accelerating Production

• Dramatic Reductions in Build Time:
  • From 6-8 months per ship to, at peak, four days for the SS Robert E. Peary—accomplished through process iteration and competitive spirit among shipyards.
  • Quote:

    "When the Liberty ship program began...first ships took six to eight months to build...slowly got better...to three months...two months...peaked in terms of volume...one month, about 120 Liberty ships were built." "The record setting ship...SS Robert E. Peary, was built in four days, 15 hours and 29 minutes."
    — Doug Most (15:05)

The Power of Public-Private Partnership: The Role of Henry J. Kaiser

• Who Was Henry Kaiser?
  • Self-made contractor best known for leading the Hoover Dam project under budget/early, catching FDR’s attention.
  • Became the central private-sector driver of the Liberty ship program.
  • Quote:

    "Kaiser...became a major sort of contractor out there, building roads and bridges and dams...he put together a conglomerate...to build the Hoover Dam... finished it ahead of budget, ahead of schedule..."
    — Doug Most (17:25)

  • Their relationship exemplifies the synergy between ambitious private enterprise and publicly set goals.

Lessons for Today: Pragmatism and Partnership

• Modern Analogs:
  • Debate over figures like Elon Musk or the COVID vaccine response as echoing WWII’s public-private mobilization.
  • Quote:

    "Love him or hate him, [Musk] was a disruptor...but almost a better, more recent example...was maybe the COVID response...The government needed a solution and turned to the private sector...to sort of solve this crisis. And they did, and they did it fast."
    — Doug Most (21:22)

• Collective Action Across Society:
  • Liberty ships were built by an unprecedented cross-section of American society—housewives, laborers, engineers, handymen.
  • Quote:

    “This was a time when people from all parts of the country and all corners of society, poor housewives, farmers, plumbers and PhDs, inventors and patriotic handymen, brilliant engineers...all came together to solve this problem, to build giant steel cargo ships faster than the Germans could sink them."
    — Marshall (23:21, reading from Doug Most's book)

  • Women’s critical role as men went off to war; families relocating nationwide to join shipyards (24:46)

Human Narratives and Research

• Finding Living History:
  • Most research included tracking down one of the few surviving Liberty ship workers, Arthur Babineaux (102 years old), who inspected welds in Maine.
  • Quote:

    “I was fortunate in my research to find a 102 year old...who worked on liberty ships...His job was to inspect welds...He told me these great stories...”
    — Doug Most (24:46)

Why This Story Now?

• Relevance to Modern Challenges:

  • Current US efforts to rebuild industrial capacity (from EV manufacturing to national security) echo the wartime mobilization's lessons.
  • US can’t simply act alone for global challenges, needs updated “arsenal of democracies”—alliances matter more than ever.
  • Quote:

    "We are not the country of GM in 1939 anymore. So what we need is an arsenal of democracies, not just an arsenal of democracy."
    — Marshall (32:30)

• British Origins of the Liberty Ship Concept:

  • Program began when British shipbuilders, desperate for help, recruited American partners—a foundational transatlantic collaboration.
  • Quote:

    "What happened was the story starts with a shipbuilder…by the name of Robert Thompson, who had designed a big cargo ship...The British Admiralty sent Robert Thompson to the United States to essentially find a partner..."
    — Doug Most (32:59)

  • The US version tweaked the original "ocean class" ship for American needs.

The Hollywood Question: Why Not a Movie?

• Narrative Challenges:
  • Need a focused, character-driven thread amid a sprawling subject.
  • Quote:

    “If I was going to try to do it…maybe what I would do is zoom in on the Robert E. Peary…built in four days…You can start broad and then sort of narrow down to this sort of one ship.”
    — Doug Most (36:18)

  • Marshall suggests this isn't war propaganda—like Ford v Ferrari or Apollo 13, a Liberty ship movie would be about American ingenuity and team problem-solving.

Notable Reflection on Storytelling

• People-Centric History:
  • Most isn't a WWII buff by trade—he's drawn to stories of ordinary people achieving the extraordinary through cooperation and perseverance.
  • Quote:

    "At my heart and at my core, I'm a storyteller and I like writing about people. So I'm always looking for ideas that are built around interesting people doing interesting things."
    — Doug Most (28:02)

Timed Memorable Quotes & Segments

• On Problem Solving:

  • "This is a story about problem solving. Specifically, it's about one problem...building and constructing the ships that actually allowed us to win the war..."
    (03:45 – Doug Most)

• On Leadership and ‘Ugly Ducklings’:

  • "He [FDR] didn't do that. Instead, what he said was, I just need a lot of ships. I need quantity over quality, if you will."
    (07:21 – Doug Most)

• On Rapid Engineering:

  • "The record setting ship...SS Robert E. Peary, was built in four days, 15 hours and 29 minutes."
    (15:05 – Doug Most)

• On Partnership/Henry Kaiser:

  • "He finished [Hoover Dam] ahead of budget, ahead of schedule and under budget...It was a remarkable achievement..."
    (17:25 – Doug Most)

• On All-Society Mobilization:

  • “People from all parts of the country and all corners of society...came together to solve this problem, to build giant steel cargo ships faster than the Germans could sink them."
    (23:21 – Marshall reading from Doug Most's book)

• On Contemporary Relevance:

  • "We are not the country of GM in 1939 anymore. So what we need is an arsenal of democracies, not just an arsenal of democracy."
    (32:30 – Marshall Kosloff)

• On Film Adaptation:

  • "Maybe what I would do is zoom in on the Robert E. Peary…You can start broad and then sort of narrow down to this sort of one ship."
    (36:18 – Doug Most)

Conclusion: Takeaways for Today

• Pragmatic, ambitious problem-solving is not a relic of the past—it’s a blueprint for addressing modern challenges, from industrial policy to public health.
• Success in critical moments demands broad partnerships, decisive leadership, and the willingness to value function over form.
• As America faces new threats and transformational goals, the collaborative spirit, speed, and scope of the Liberty ship program offer proof that democracy is not inherently slow or ineffective—when mobilized, it’s a powerful engine for change.

Further Reading:

• Launching Liberty by Doug Most
• Freedom’s Forge by Arthur Herman
• The Arsenal of Democracy by AJ Baime

Episode ends [40:50].