Psychologist and author Scott Barry Kaufman joins Reason's Nick Gillespie to discuss his new book Rise Above, which challenges the growing embrace of victimhood as identity. They explore how traits such as neuroticism and vulnerable narcissism are shaping modern culture, why social media rewards grievance over growth, and what it really takes to develop a more flexible, empowered sense of self. Kaufman reflects on his own journey from special education to Carnegie Mellon and beyond, explains why tough love and radical honesty are essential tools for transformation, and offers a humanistic vision of how individuals and societies can move beyond resentment and reclaim purpose.

0:00—Introduction

1:30—Limiting beliefs come from our past.

6:00—The victim mindset

10:49—What is vulnerable narcissism?

12:12—Kaufman's experience in special education

17:35—Childhood trauma from summer camp

21:49—Narcissism is a defensive posture.

26:24—Kaufman's unconventional path to Carnegie Mellon

31:09—Group victimhood and empowerment

37:40—Why coddling and tough love are both wrong

41:55—Embracing optimism in the face of darkness

48:00—Developing a flexible identity

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Transcript

This is an AI-generated, AI-edited transcript. Check all quotes against the audio for accuracy.

Nick Gillespie: Kaufman has entered the building. Thanks so much. I'm Nick Gillespie, I'm an editor at Reason, and Scott graciously asked me to interview him about his new book, Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. Let's have a big hand for Scott Barry Kaufman.

Scott Kaufman: Thank you.

Scott, I think as we talk—and we're going to talk for about 45 minutes—and then we'll have plenty of time for audience Q&A. I'll let you know when to line up, but there's a microphone over on that side of the restaurant, and you can queue up. You'll have plenty of warning about that. But as we talk, your backstory will also come out. This will be crafted like a mystery movie. But I want to start with Rise Above. You have an epigraph at the beginning, which is from Carl Jung, and it says, "I am not what happened to me. I am what I choose to become."

I love that quote.

Yeah, talk a little bit about why that's at the start of this book.

Yeah, I think that we have a lot of limiting beliefs about our potential and what we're capable of, based on the stories we tell ourselves about our past and what we've been through. And a lot of the stories that we tell ourselves about our past are limiting stories. They keep us enshrined in our past. Another quote I really like, which relates to that, is from the great existential psychotherapist Irvin Yalom, who said, "Sooner or later you have to give up all hope for a better past." That basically encapsulates the point of my book.

Why are we drawn to—why would we believe in something that limits us rather than something that empowers us?

Yeah, are any psychoanalysts—any psychoanalysts in the room? People into that? Karen Horney talked about soothing illusions. She was actually the first one to really challenge Freud. And she's like, "Freud, you're batshit crazy." Yeah, she was the first to call it out, you know, before cancel culture.

She called out Freud.

She says we have a lot of defense mechanisms that serve for us feel—or attempt to feel—safe and secure. It takes a lot sometimes to rip our defense mechanisms off of us, because it's a very vulnerable space to do so. To admit that, "Wow, I have really not gotten over this thing," or "Wow, I really don't think I can cope." To admit to yourself, "I don't think I can do this." It's far easier for a lot of people to never, ever face that thought and hold on to these soothing illusions.

Wow. And even if the illusion keeps you in a bad place.

Oh, absolutely. In fact, I would say that's our default state. I talk in this book about the theory of learned helplessness. It's a theory that Martin Seligman and his colleagues developed—they shocked dogs and then eventually started shocking humans.

Another illustrious chapter in the University of Pennsylvania's history. You know, every once in a while they win the Ivy League football championship, but in between that, they're shocking. They're known for shocking.

Yeah, Martin Seligman moved on to humans at some point. He got bored with dogs. But what was really interesting about this research is that after a certain number of shocks, they would open up a cage—they would keep a dog in a cage—they would open the cage and the dog could just leave whenever it wanted to. It was free. But it had been shocked so many times that it did not realize it was free. And even if it realized it was free, it didn't leave.

What they found is that, 50 years later, in humans, it operates differently than with dogs. Because of our consciousness, learned helplessness is actually our default state. What we have to learn is hope. Learned hopefulness is what has to be learned.

So let's talk about the victim mindset because, you know, that's what this book is about. It's overcoming a victim mindset. That's a big part of it. What goes into creating that victim mindset, and are we at ...

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