When Theodore Roosevelt needed a work break, he invited champion martial artists to the White House to spar. When Jonah Goldberg gets tired of the grind, he calls up National Review movie critic Ross Douthat for some good ol’ fashioned intellectual judo. Jonah and Ross get stuck in on Iran, working through the political current state of play, the changing use of the term “regime,” the justifications for the war, and whether Trump betrayed MAGA. They conclude with a brief recap of their disagreement in writing over the future of conservatism.

Show Notes:
—Ken Pollack Remnant
—Mark Dubowitz on Ross’ little show, Interesting Times
—Chris Caldwell in The Spectator: “The end of Trumpism”
—Nick Catoggio in The Dispatch: “The Obvious Scapegoat”
—Douthat in the NYT: “The Iran War Is Trump’s War”
—Ross’ piece on the future of conservatism
—Jonah’s response to Ross on the future of conservatism

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Has Trump Betrayed His Base?| Interview: Ross Douthat