Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified

Ep 107 – Hunting Al-Qaeda: The War on Terror (Ep 2)

Date: December 10, 2025
Hosts: David McCloskey (former CIA analyst, spy novelist) & Gordon Corera (veteran security correspondent)

Overview

In the second episode of this four-part series, McCloskey and Corera dive deep into the chaotic period following the 2009 suicide bombing at Khost, a devastating loss for the CIA. The episode centers on Humam al-Balawi—a mild-mannered Jordanian doctor and radical jihadist blogger turned alleged double agent. The hosts unravel the complexities of agent recruitment, the psychological motivations behind loyalty, and the challenges intelligence agencies face when relying on ideologically motivated assets to collect information within terrorist organizations like Al-Qaeda.

Central Question:
Can intelligence agencies ever truly trust agents who claim to have turned against their jihadist causes?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Aftermath of Balawi’s Arrest and Interrogation

[04:04 – 09:09]

• Background Recap: Balawi (known online as Abu Dujana) was initially a vocal pro-Al Qaeda blogger. The Jordanian intelligence service (GID), prompted by CIA intelligence, arrested and interrogated him, believing he had “broken,” confessed, and cooperated.
• Ongoing Surveillance:
  • Balawi is not entirely cleared; his phone is tapped, and he is followed.
  • Ali bin Zayd from GID is actively monitoring him, compiling detailed reports passed to the CIA.
• Contradictory Persona:
  • Despite claiming his online activism was a “roleplay,” further investigation reveals real-world connections—attempted recruitment by insurgencies, collecting money for jihadists, volunteering as a Hamas medic, and deeper radicalization after meeting his wife, Defne, a devout Islamist.

Quote:

“The deeper GID looks, the more troubling this all becomes... you have these real-world sort of facts that start to pile up after the initial round of interrogation.” – David McCloskey [08:32]

2. Psychological Fallout and Initial Recruitment Attempt

[09:09 – 14:30]

• Trauma and Isolation: Post-interrogation, Balawi is psychologically shaken—withdrawn, losing weight, praying obsessively, and behaving unusually.
• GID’s Strategy:
  • Rather than just monitoring, Bin Zayd courts Balawi—offering gifts, meals, and conversations that both flatter the GID and suggest Balawi could help his country (and get paid for it).
  • The GID hopes to leverage Balawi’s access for monetary and patriotic incentives, despite doubts about their pull on a true ideologue.

Quote:

“He’s obviously not in a good spot. His headspace is all messed up after this.” – David McCloskey [09:44]

3. Setting Up the Operation: Into the Pakistani Tribal Areas

[15:36 – 18:53]

• The Plan:
  • Using his doctor credentials and online reputation, Balawi is set up to embed himself in Pakistan’s tribal regions.
  • The GID finances his travel on a “pay for intel” basis: some startup cash, no spy gear (for safety), codeword-based email comms.
  • The CIA is looped in as the operation becomes too risky and high-value for the Jordanians alone.
• CIA Partnership:
  • Balawi’s codename changes from “Panzer” (GID) to “Wolf” (CTC/CIA).
  • Entry is arranged under the cover of a medical conference; the Pakistanis are not informed.

Quote:

“He’ll get paid when he delivers... produce intel and get paid. You can see from Bin Zayd’s perspective why this is appealing.” – David McCloskey [16:37]

4. Early Stages in Pakistan: Contact, Cover, and Credibility

[24:45 – 27:04]

• Radio Silence and Recontact:
  • For weeks, nothing is heard—the assumption is he might be dead.
  • Then a coded email arrives: Balawi is in South Waziristan, living in Wana, and starting to use his list of online jihadist contacts IRL.
• Unique Access:
  • As Abu Dujana, he’s welcomed; his credentials are real, not fabricated.
  • His medical skills are in demand among militants.
• Gradually Building Trust:
  • Moves in with Pakistani Taliban, claims close scrutiny but slowly integrates, using medical clinics as both cover and opportunity.

Quote:

“It’s kind of like if all your social media friends... you show up and say, well, I’m that guy. It’s an immediate way to get in.” – David McCloskey [26:37]

5. Declaration of True Loyalty: Double Agent or Blank Slate?

[29:09 – 33:56]

• Revealing His Hand:
  • At a crucial point, Balawi tells Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud he’s connected to Jordanian intelligence and claims to have been arrested/tortured but has tricked his handlers.
• Hosts’ Paranoia:
  • Taliban distrust him; threats of execution hang overhead, especially as untrustworthy agents are often killed.
• Psychological Strain:
  • The constant drone war adds to the strain—“the predators,” their relentless buzzing, and repeated incidents nearby.

Quote:

“He’s probably thinking, I might get ritualistically executed by my hosts or I might be killed in an American drone strike. This is a pretty rough wake up call from his life in Jordan.” – David McCloskey [32:48]

6. Trust Tests: Taliban Vetting and the Drone Strike Legend

[33:56 – 36:00]

• The “Test” Plan:
  • Taliban allegedly devise a test to see if Balawi can get the CIA to target Mehsud—a staged drone strike.
  • McCloskey and Corera are skeptical of its veracity, likely lore exaggerated by the militants.
• Balawi Convinces Militant Leaders:
  • Following summer 2009 and Mehsud’s real death by drone, Balawi’s own standing grows—though the killing was not due to his intel.

7. The ‘Gift’: Video Evidence and Asset Validation

[38:53 – 41:37]

• Reappearance: After prolonged silence, Balawi sends Bin Zayd a video—a low-resolution clip showing a meeting with Atiyah Abd al-Rahman, a known Al-Qaeda senior leader unseen for years.
• US Intelligence Reaction:
  • US analysts confirm the video’s authenticity; excitement surges at CIA HQ over seemingly direct access to AQ leadership.
  • Within GID, this is seen as a career-making coup for Bin Zayd.

Quote:

“Here we have a guy who in a very short period of time seems to have developed real deal access inside the upper echelons of Al Qaeda.” – David McCloskey [40:30]

8. Counterintelligence: Suspicion vs. Urgency

[42:22 – 45:51]

• Limited Scrutiny:
  • Traditionally, CIA (especially in the Cold War) emphasized rigorous counterintelligence reviews.
  • In the frantic pace of counterterrorism, those checks are looser—asset validation mostly revolves around confirming intel with drone strike outcomes and electronic surveillance.
• Why Not More Skepticism?
  • For urgent, high-stakes terrorist cases, the ethos is “move fast, people’s lives depend on it.”
  • Balawi’s reports help target militants and his clinic’s drone casualty reports match US imagery, bolstering legitimacy.

Quote:

“If we slow them down and undergo a full CI review, there won’t be any cases, there won’t be any intel, and people are going to die.” – David McCloskey [44:10]

9. The Rising Stakes: Claimed Access to al-Zawahiri

[47:49 – 50:00]

• Labonte’s Role: CIA paramilitary officer Darren Labonte is brought in to co-run the case with Bin Zayd—a pairing of two highly trusted, capable handlers.
• Game-Changing Claim:
  • In November 2009, Balawi claims he is treating none other than Ayman al-Zawahiri, Al-Qaeda’s #2 (and later Bin Laden’s successor).
  • His report includes specific medical details only someone with inside access could know, matching previous CIA records.
• At the Very Top:
  • The case becomes RH (restricted handling)—arguably the most important asset case in the US intelligence community.

Quote:

“Once Balawi reports in that he is treating Zawahiri… this case becomes the most important case inside the Central Intelligence Agency.” – David McCloskey [50:00]

10. Escalating Pressure & The Road to Disaster

[50:00 – 52:13]

• Presidential Briefing:
  • Uniquely, CIA Director Panetta briefs President Obama before an asset meeting—setting high, maybe dangerous, expectations across the bureaucracy.
  • Everyone is “falling in love with the agent,” desperate for the breakthrough that has proved elusive for years in the hunt for Bin Laden/Zawahiri.
• Cliffhanger:
  • The chain of events set in motion by these hopes will culminate in tragedy at Khost—a disaster explored in the next episode.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Balawi had tried to volunteer as a Hamas medic to treat Palestinian wounded... again, it's a connection with Hamas he tries to establish.”
  – David McCloskey [07:58]

• “I do struggle to think why they think it would work on someone who is clearly deeply emotionally in his interior life aligned with the jihadist cause.”
  – Gordon Corera [14:16]

• “Can we really trust this guy? Can you trust a guy who, you know, has been in contact with Jordanian intelligence?”
  – Gordon Corera [33:56]

• “Don’t fall in love with your agent. Because here we have a guy who... seems to have developed real deal access inside the upper echelons of Al Qaeda. And that is meeting an insatiable hunger on the part of the Obama White House.”
  – David McCloskey [40:16]

• “It’s hard to overstate how big of a deal that is inside the CIA.”
  – David McCloskey, on Balawi’s supposed access to Zawahiri [48:49]

• “If CIA can meet Bilawi, we might be able to... geo-locate Zawahiri. Briefing a President before an asset meeting. It’s not necessarily wrong, but it creates expectations that will impact decision-making.”
  – David McCloskey [51:10]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Episode Setup & Key Question: 04:04–05:19
• Balawi’s Ideological Evolution & Real-World Actions: 05:19–09:09
• Post-Arrest Psychological State: 09:09–10:51
• GID’s Recruitment Approach: 10:51–14:30
• Designing the Pakistani Infiltration Operation: 15:36–18:53
• Early Communication from Pakistan: 24:45–27:04
• Taliban Integration & Testing: 29:09–36:00
• The ‘Gift’ Video and Asset Validation: 38:53–41:37
• Counterintelligence and Validation Mechanisms: 42:22–45:51
• Labonte’s Introduction & Zawahiri Revelation: 46:07–50:00
• Panetta’s Briefing and Raised Stakes: 50:00–52:13

Tone & Style

Maintains a measured, analytic, and insider tone—balancing spy thriller tension (“Jabba’s palace of jihadists,” “don’t fall in love with your agent”) with pragmatic skepticism and behind-the-scenes details of intelligence work.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a gripping, nuanced look at the perils and ambiguities intel agencies face in the war on terror—where ideology, trauma, and bureaucratic pressure collide, often with deadly consequences. The stage is set for the lead-up to the ill-fated Khost meeting and its aftermath in the next installment.