111. The Man Behind The CIA: Shooting In The White House (Ep 2)

Summary

---

The Rest Is Classified – Episode 111: "The Man Behind The CIA: Shooting In The White House (Ep 2)"

Date: December 24, 2025
Hosts: David McCloskey (former CIA analyst, spy novelist), Gordon Corera (veteran security correspondent)
Main Theme:
An engaging, in-depth exploration of the legendary “Wild Bill” Donovan – founder of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), forerunner to the CIA – focusing on his exploits during WWII, the creation and culture of the OSS, and the bureaucratic battles that led to the modern CIA. The episode vividly recounts Donovan’s bold personality, reckless leadership style, legendary antics, and the enduring mythos he fostered, all while examining how his legacy continues to shape the intelligence community.

---

1. Opening: Character Portrait & Context ([03:31]–[05:16])

• The episode kicks off with a colorful, almost mythic character sketch of Wild Bill Donovan, as described by Walter Lord:
  "Like some all potent oriental swami, he would with a wave of a hand, dispense justice to all within his orbit... Brilliant, energetic, imaginative and resourceful, he was unfortunately also selfish, petty, extravagant and something of a racketeer."
  — Read by David ([03:31])
• Hosts joke about the description fitting McCloskey, blending humor with reverence for Donovan’s eccentric leadership style.
• Recap of previous episode: how Donovan became key figure for FDR after Pearl Harbor, and his early clashes with J. Edgar Hoover.

---

2. The Birth of American Centralized Intelligence ([06:25]–[09:43])

The Post-Pearl Harbor Call

• After Pearl Harbor, Donovan is urgently summoned by FDR to Washington.
• FDR immediately asks: “Were the Nazis in on Pearl Harbor?” ([06:25])
• The importance: America’s intelligence failure spawns the need for centralized intelligence briefings (“the ancestor to the President’s Daily Brief”).
• Gordon highlights the novelty: “Feels like the first time you get the President being briefed on a daily basis.” ([07:11])

OSS Is Born

• Donovan leverages this trust to propose expanded intelligence and sabotage operations—transforming from info-gathering to clandestine action.
• The creation of the OSS in June 1942:
  “It’s a great title... Classic intelligence agency title, isn’t it? Grand, but doesn’t really tell you what they do. ‘Strategic Services’. I mean, what does that even mean?”
  — Gordon ([08:39])
• Hosts lampoon the opaque bureaucratic naming conventions (e.g., “Office of Technological Resources and Support”).

---

3. Wild Recruitment: The “Glorious Amateurs” of OSS ([10:50]–[13:27])

• Donovan’s rule-breaking approach:
  “I’d rather have a young lieutenant with guts enough to disobey an order than a colonel too regimented to think and act for himself.”
  — Quoted by David ([11:46])
• OSS recruitment is a mix of social elites (“oh, so social”), Ivy League professors, misfits, safecrackers, and those rejected by the military for “bad eyesight” (“the Bad Eyes Brigade”).
• Gender diversity: 35% of OSS were women—a surprisingly progressive stat for the era.
• Notables:
  • Julia Child (future chef), John Ford (Hollywood director), Alan Dulles, Richard Helms, William Colby, William Casey (future CIA directors).

---

4. OSS in Action: Chaos and Creativity ([13:54]–[16:04])

• Multiple operational divisions:
  • Secret intelligence
  • Analysis/research
  • Paramilitary (“mini McCloskeys,” commando groups)
  • Sabotage and “morale operations” (including wild schemes like exposing Hitler to “an insane quantity of pornography to incapacitate him”)
  • Black propaganda, psychological warfare, espionage
• Often reckless, frequently chaotic:
  • Anecdotes of failed or bizarre missions—e.g., briefcase lost to Gestapo, commandos dropped into neutral Sweden by mistake.

---

5. The Anglo-American Intelligence Relationship & Claridge’s Lore ([16:04]–[19:39])

• OSS’s London Station became its “beating heart”—almost 3,000 staff (25% of OSS).
• Espionage social life: parties, martinis, and sprawling Claridge’s suites.
• Hosts weave in personal anecdotes about their own first meeting at Claridge’s, humorously paralleling Donovan’s Anglophile habits.
• Tensions between the Brits and Americans:
  “Be careful what you wish for in your influence operations...”
  — David ([19:39])
• OSS’s reputation as “playing cowboys and Indians,” frustrating careful British SOE/MI6 planning.

---

6. Donovan’s Bravado: Guns in the White House and D-Day ([20:06]–[27:40])

• Daring exploits and dangerous showmanship:
  • Demonstrates a silenced pistol by firing it ten times into a sandbag in the White House to impress FDR.
    • “He’s literally shooting guns in the White House.” — Gordon ([22:03])
    • FDR is delighted, keeps the silencer; it’s displayed in the presidential library ([22:06])
  • Ignores orders and finagles his way onto a D-Day landing craft.
    • Absurdity of America’s top spymaster on the beach, ducking bullets, prepared to use cyanide L-pills (but left them at Claridge’s).
    • Gallows humor: “If we’re about to be captured, I’ll shoot you first. After all, I’m your commanding officer.” — Donovan, via Gordon ([26:34])
  • David reflects: “There was zero logic to doing any of this, but it makes for a great story and adds to the lore.” ([26:45])

---

7. The OSS Bureaucratic Aftermath: Power Struggles in Washington ([31:18]–[36:08])

• End of WWII brings existential questions for OSS.
• Donovan proposes in 1944 a permanent civilian intelligence agency (“Donovan Plan”).
• Violent opposition:
  • J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI fiercely resist—accusing OSS of being full of Communists and “virtually owned by the Brits.”
  • Pentagon/military also resist, especially Douglas MacArthur (longstanding rivalry).
  • Press leaks accuse Donovan of plotting an “American Gestapo.”
  • Donovan’s influence depended on personal rapport with FDR; after FDR’s death, he’s politically isolated.
  • Truman—distrustful of both Donovan and Hoover—dissolves OSS via Executive Order (September 20, 1945).

---

8. Donovan’s Sunset: Exile, Hope, and Legacy ([38:12]–[41:41])

• Donovan is exiled to legal/private life, briefly assistant prosecutor at Nuremberg Trials, later U.S. ambassador to Thailand.
• Despite hope of returning as CIA Director (campaigning for Eisenhower’s election), is bypassed in favor of Alan Dulles.
• Late years marked by declining health and dementia, reliving the glory days, “walking down the street in his pajamas to confront the invading Red Army.” ([40:19])
• When he dies, CIA cables worldwide:
  “The man more responsible than any other for the existence of the Central Intelligence Agency has passed away.” ([41:41])

---

9. Lasting Impact and Host Reflections ([41:41]–[48:21])

• Debate on OSS’s wartime effectiveness:
  • “Howling success? Maybe not. But the morale, myth, and momentum endured.”
  • McCloskey: “The legacy that Donovan and the OSS created, and really bequeathed to the early CIA as it’s developing... built around the personality of Wild Bill Donovan.” ([42:45])
• Key Differences: OSS/CIA as “tip of the spear” (paramilitary structure) vs. intelligence collection focus of MI6.
• Enduring tensions: CIA–FBI rivalries, British influence, bureaucratic warfare.
• Thoughts on leadership: Could another “Donovan” shape an agency in today’s world? Likely not—modern intelligence is too bureaucratized.
• The CIA’s own “tip of the spear” ethos and the statue of Donovan at Langley as his symbolic inheritance.

---

10. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On OSS recruitment:
  “OSS was said to stand for, oh, so social... socialites, professors, and safecrackers with mafia ties.” — Gordon ([12:15])
• Wild Bill’s bravado:
  “If we’re about to be captured, I’ll shoot you first. After all, I’m your commanding officer.” — recounted by Gordon ([26:34])
• On legacy:
  “The man more responsible than any other for the existence of the Central Intelligence Agency has passed away.” — CIA cable ([41:41])
• David, on modern intelligence:
  “Is it even possible anymore... for a single-minded, really colorful, somewhat deranged person to remake an agency in his image?” ([45:34])

---

11. Closing Thoughts & Teasers ([48:21]–[49:55])

• McCloskey and Corera wittily muse on living out the “Donovan legacy” at Claridge’s, weaving personal anecdotes with the show's mythos.
• Teasers for upcoming content: special guest to discuss changing nature of espionage (phones, sensors, AI).
• End-of-year reminders and holiday wishes.

---

Summary:
This episode deftly blends deep historical research, sharp analysis, and personal humor to reconstruct the rise and fall of Wild Bill Donovan and the OSS—the DNA of today’s CIA. The hosts unravel tales equal parts slapstick and gravitas, all while probing the legacy of America’s first “spymaster,” his chaotic organization, and the enduring influence (and cautionary tale) he left on US intelligence culture.

---

For Listeners New and Old:
A must-listen for fans of history, espionage drama, and those who enjoy their spy lore mixed with a martini—shaken, of course, at Claridge’s.

---

Transcript

[A]

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter and discounted books. Join the declassified [e-mail] this episode is sponsored by HP.

[B]

Most people are not counterespionage experts, but that won't stop them getting targeted by cyber criminals seeking to extract their secrets.

[A]

HP understands that approximately 4 in 10 UK businesses have reported cyber breaches in the past 12 months alone. That's why HP Business laptops, desktops and workstations bought directly on HP Store are secure, straight out of the box with their endpoint security.

[B]

No more stressing about dodgy emails or unexplained pop ups. HP's independently verified Wolff Pro Security works alongside your existing security tools to to protect your business users and reputation from malware and evolving cyber threats. With your first click, you don't need.

[A]

An alias or a secret hideout to stay safe, just WolffPro security working tirelessly to protect your hard work. It's security that's built in, not bolted on.

[B]

Find out more about how HP can protect your [e-mail] Classified podcast listeners benefit from a 10% discount on all business business PCs, printers and accessories using the code TRIC10. Terms and conditions apply.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by eBay buying a car should feel secure, start to finish. That's why you should buy your next ride on ebay. Whatever you're into, eBay's got it. From classics to SUVs and trucks to imports, all in one place. And with secure purchase, the process is streamlined and protected. Secure purchase means no DMV visit, sellers and titles are verified, all the paperwork is handled and financing, delivery and insurance options are built right in. Plus, eligible vehicle purchases are backed by up to $100,000 in protection. Looking to sell your ride? Secure purchase makes that easy too. Your buyer and their funds are verified and the title, transfer and loan payoff are totally seamless. So skip the hassle. Shop with confidence. Buy your next car on ebay. Ebay Things People Love Secure Purchase is powered by Caramel Dealer Services LLC, an eBay subsidiary. You're deep into your favorite true crime binge. The twists the theories and suddenly hunger hits. Grab a Paleo Valley 100% grass fed beef Stick. These aren't your average gas station snacks. They're made from real beef, sourced from regenerative small American family farms. No preservatives, no gluten, no grains, soy or sugar. Just naturally fermented protein that fuels your obsession. Whether you're road tripping, hiking or pulling an all nighter with your favorite case. Choose from five bold flavors. Original jalapeno, summer sausage, Garlic summer sausage and Teriyaki. They're Keto, Paleo and Carnivore. Friendly. Made to work with your lifestyle, not against it. With over 55 million sticks sold and a 60 day money back guarantee, you've got nothing to lose. Get 15% on your first [e-mail] Just use code Paleo at checkout.

[A]

Ensconced in his fabulous Claridge's suite, he spent spent his days holding court to a host of colonels, ambassadors, movie directors and pals from the old days. Like some all potent oriental swami, he would with a wave of a hand, dispense justice to all within his orbit and deliver an unending stream of conflicting policy decisions that brought his subordinates to the verge of collapse. While he pondered the problems of state, he doodled at night he would read as many as a half dozen books at one sitting, jotting down excerpts that appealed to him. Brilliant, energetic, imaginative and resourceful, he was unfortunately also selfish, petty, extravagant and something of a racketeer. Well, welcome to the rest is classified. I'm David McCloskey.

[B]

And I'm Gordon Carrera.

[A]

And that is unfortunately or fortunately a description of how I like to spend my time at Claridge's when I visit London.

[B]

That was not a description of you. I was thinking resourceful, energetic, imaginative, but also something of a Racketeer.

[A]

That's right, that's right. I don't know where you got this description of my time spent in my fabulous sweet Declarages, but it's perfect and it's on the nose. That is in fact not about David McCloskey. Is that right Gordon? I don't know.

[B]

No, it was not David McCloskey. It was Walter Lord.

[A]

That's really unfortunate.

[B]

That's Walter Lord who ran covert operations for the oss, the Office of Strategic Services in London, describing Wild Bill Donovan, the founder of the oss, the forerunner of the CIA. But it is a great description, isn't it? Of the character who we're looking at in this special two parter for Christmas.

[A]

I would not have thought that I would want to be described as something of a racketeer. But after reading that paragraph, I would be okay if this entire paragraph were just about about me. I would be fine with that, with that being the ending. But we did look last time, Gordon, didn't we? At the earlier life and the early career of Wild Bill Donovan, who is going to become the Founder of the oss. And last time we looked at how he got his nickname in the trenches of the First World War, his work for FDR as kind of an emissary and importantly an emissary to Great Britain to determine how the US might support the Brits during the Second World War. We looked at Wild Bill Donovan's early battles with J. Edgar Hoover at the FBI, and we actually left him at a proper American football game, didn't we? Not Gordon, when he is receiving a phone call that will summon him to Washington because the Japanese have just hit Pearl harbor and FDR wants Wild Bill's services in the war effort in an intelligence capacity.

[B]

That's right. So he rushes to Washington. He gets to FDR's study around midnight. FDR's eating a sandwich. Interesting enough, the question FDR's got for him is, were the Nazis in on Pearl Harbour? It's a bit like the President going, who's behind this? And they agree, probably not. And FDR says to Donovan something interesting. He says, it's a good thing you got me started on this. And I think what he's talking about there is the idea of needing a centralized intelligence agency, because clearly they've had an intelligence failure at Pearl harbor. And I think that's demonstrated the need for an organization. You know, there are going to be questions, of course, about who'd missed it and why and whether the Navy had missed some intelligence. But whatever it is, now there's this need, isn't there, for intelligence reports to be in some way coordinated and centralized and. And to get to the President himself. And FDR is going to want them delivered to his bedroom in the morning when he's reading his morning papers. I mean, this is the. It feels like this is almost the first time you get the President being briefed on a daily basis, which is something you ended up involved in when you were at CIA, wasn't it?

[A]

I think the modern. What became the President's daily brief doesn't really start until the Kennedy administration. But you do start to see, in this case with fdr, certainly with Truman, the very earliest stages of the idea that there should be some kind of consolidated report that the President sees in the morning that summarizes kind of what's going on in the world. Right. And so you certainly don't have anything like the modern PDB in this delivery to Roosevelt. But you do, I think, start to see the idea that there needs to be some kind of system or process for helping the US President understand what in the world is actually going on in the world, which makes. Which makes eminent sense. And Donovan, I mean, as we've seen from sort of just his personality at character, a lot of the ideas that Bill Donovan will. Will push to FDR are not always sensible.

[B]

Yeah. Because that's the thing he takes advantage of being this intelligence advisor to also start pushing more ideas and saying, we can do more aggressive action. We can carry out commando raids, we can do, you know, sabotage behind enemy lines. He starts suggesting expanding his team into something that does more than just gather intelligence, but also carries out these clandestine operations, which means a kind of new organization effectively. So they come up with this title, which is the oss, The Office of Strategic Services, which I guess it's a great title because it's a classic intelligence agency title, isn't it? Because it's grand, but doesn't really tell you what they do. Strategic Services. I mean, what does that even mean?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that impulse in the world of intelligence to create or to name a bureaucracy or the part of a bureaucracy and to actually reveal no information about it in the name is. It takes some real skill. And if you actually walk around the CIA or go down to the basement floor and you look at some of the name plates on the doors, I mean, sometimes the doors don't literally don't say anything. It's just a number. But, you know, in other cases, it'd be like the Office of Technological Resources and Support.

[B]

Yeah. Special Activities Division.

[A]

Yeah, Special Activities Division. There's just that it's. It's very hard to understand what they actually do. And I like. I like the OSS name. It's better than the Silk Stocking Boys, which was the name of one of his fighting regiments in the First World War.

[B]

So Roosevelt was going to agree June 1942, to create this OSS, which immediately there's a bit of tension with the military. You know, how close is it going to be? Also, of course, as we looked at last time, tension with his arch enemy at the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover. One of the things Hoover says is keep out of the entire Western hemisphere, so including kind of Latin and Central America, because that is kind of FBI domain. It's kind of interesting. I find it. It's quite interesting in the modern world as well, that that is seen almost as domestic.

[A]

Monroe Doctrine, Gordon.

[B]

The Monroe Doctrine, yeah. It's your backyard. So Donovan gets this new job, and he's going to be kind of leading this new organization. And I guess the RSS is an extension of his own personality. He is a terrible administrator, but actually an inspiring leader who, you know, loves to be on the front line.

[A]

Well, and I guess the first or one of the first questions that Donovan has to wrestle with is what sort of person do you recruit into this organization? And I guess the answer is obviously people who don't have any experience with anything that you're going to be doing.

[B]

It's funny, isn't it? He basically goes for amateurs. I mean, glorious amateurs is what he calls them.

[A]

What could go wrong, Right?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting, I mean, the way he decides to do that. I mean, he calls them the League of Gentlemen, his people. And there's social misfits, spoiled rich kids, military cast offs, you know, that's how they're described. I mean, Douglas Waller's book, while Bill$, there's some great descriptions just of the kind of unusual types of people he wants. And he also, he wants rule breakers like him, doesn't he? He says, I'd rather have a young lieutenant or lieutenant with guts enough to disobey an order than a colonel too regimented to think and act for himself. That's what he wants.

[A]

Well, again, I guess signs of the British influence operation that has been ongoing over Bill Donovan's heart and mind is that it reminds me a lot of the type of person that Mansfield Cumming was trying to recruit to join the early MI6, which were sort of naughty public schoolboys. I mean, this is kind of the same model, isn't it, that Donovan is deciding to replicate inside the oss.

[B]

I like this. OSS was said to stand for, oh, so social because it was.

[A]

Because everyone's in the social register, right? Yeah. So there are all these upper crust socialites.

[B]

You've also then got the kind of professors, you know, the idea that half of them are faculty meetings and half of them are cops and robbers. So you've got a mixture of kind of safecrackers with mafia ties and, you know, professors from Ivy League universities, all, all as part of it. I mean, it's a kind of crazy mix.

[A]

It is. And you know, it's interesting because the other, the other thing I didn't, I didn't fully know was how bad everyone's eyesight was. In the early oss, they were called the Bad Eyes Brigade because so many of them were wearing glasses and had, had been rejected from, I guess, normal military service because of their eyesight. At its Peak, the OSS employed over 13,000 military personnel and civilians. This is also interesting to me, 35% of its employees were women.

[B]

Yeah, quite a, quite an interesting role, including not just back office functions, but you know, they were sending people out on the ground in operations as well.

[A]

Julia Child was a OSS member and future CIA directors.

[B]

Alan Dulles, shadowy spymaster, as we know from RJFK episodes. Richard Helms, William Colby, William Casey, four future CIA directors, Hollywood figures, Hollywood director, John Ford, intellectuals. It's kind of crazy mix, isn't it? There's your classic secret intelligence gathering, the kind of work we associate with in Britain, MI6, you know, sending officers undercover, you know, maybe posing as businessmen to Casablanca or Istanbul. Then you've got research and analysis.

[A]

Minnie McCloskeys.

[B]

The Mini McCloskeys. Correct. Paramilitary Special operations, sabotage, dirty tricks, resistance groups. So that's like in the uk, soe, Special Operations Executive. Then you've got operational groups, so uniformed commando style units, the forerunner of US Special forces in the army. So that's the equivalent of like I guess what the SAS were doing in the UK and including in World War II. Then you've got black propaganda, psychological warfare and you've got counterintelligence, security and espionage. So it's everything basically.

[A]

And the, I mean, the morale operations. This is just one of the many crazy ideas that seem to come out of the oss. But there was a plan which I don't think actually was, was implemented to try to expose Hitler to an insane quantity of pornography so that he would become a useless sort of leader. This was an example of the kind of ideas that are coming out of these sets, like sort of smoke filled rooms inside the, the morale Operations department at the oss.

[B]

I mean, it does feel like a lot of the operations, they were pretty mad. I mean, he is dispatching agents on kind of crazy missions to scout routes around Tibet and things like that. I mean, it's full of slightly reckless, slightly imaginative operations, I think. And it feels like lots of them kind of do go wrong. It's fast and loose, but they get things done. They're doing something. I guess that's the feel of it, isn't it?

[A]

They are doing things. Yeah. This was another, another great example which came from Tim Weiner's book Legacy of Ashes, where he was describing how, I guess in one case Donovan sent guards to protect a captured German ammunition dump in France and then they were blown up. I mean, so there are all kinds of. He said, oh, he. And he mistakenly dropped commandos into neutral Sweden. I think there was another case of him losing a briefcase at a cocktail party that got turned over to the Gestapo. By a Romanian dancer. So all kinds of. All kinds of sort of insane things were happening inside this organization.

[B]

But the other thing worth dwelling on is still this kind of really interesting relationship with the Brits. He remains this kind of Anglophile. There are times when he is sharing more with the Brits than with his own military, and the Brits are sharing more, for instance, about code breaking with him than his own military shares with him. And he spends a lot of time in Britain as well. I do love the fact, as we heard in that opening quote, that he stays at Claridge's when in London, which we should say, David, is your favorite hotel. We talked last time about how me and Wild Bill were so similar. But this is what you two have in common, isn't it? Because whenever you're in London, I always find you in Claridge's, don't I?

[A]

I'm always at Claridge's. I can be found at the Fumoir Bar having wonderful martinis. Claridge's is a very, very lovely place, Gordon. I'm now convinced that I must have been routed there through some kind of social engineering to make me more amenable to the uk. Like it's all part of a massive influence operation.

[B]

We should say it, because actually, Claridge's plays an important part in the history of our podcast, doesn't it?

[A]

Because it does.

[B]

It is actually where the two of us first met, which was breakfast at Claridge's. I mean, so if one was to be, as you said, conspiratorial about it, one could think that one of us was recruiting the other Donovan style by running an influence operation, by inviting the other Claridge. I think you were there and I was visiting, so I like to think it was that way around. I don't know, dunno. Who's running this operation.

[A]

Well, no, I think you take one look at this video and you got the guy in the velvet smoking jacket who definitely. Who definitely had the idea that we should spend $200 on oatmeal and have a wonderful. Have a wonderful breakfast at Claridge's vat. Not included in that number, but that was actually.

[B]

It was where we. Where we first met. Long before this podcast. Long before this podcast actually was a. Was even an idea.

[A]

Long before it was a twinkle in Gary Lineker's eye.

[B]

Gorge.

[A]

You and I. You and I sat down and had breakfast.

[B]

We were following in the footsteps of Donovan, weren't we?

[A]

I need to find the room that he stayed in next time I'M Next time I'm visiting Claridge's, but. But London, I guess, becomes kind of the beating heart in many ways of the oss. The London. London station for the OSS is absolutely massive, isn't it? It's almost 3,000 people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At one point. So it's like nearly 25% of the OSS's manpower is camped out in London, probably with coolers full of fumoir martinis in the office.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I like. There's one point he throws. Donovan throws a party to boost morale for the London Star. And one of the people there says the injection of some 300 cocktails and untold bottles of Scotch into our systems did the trick. But it's interesting because we talked a bit last time about how Britain was pushing for Oasis and backing Donovan and, you know, definitely trying to build its influence and relationship. But there's a bit of tension during the war. I mean, because in that classic way, the Brits wanted the Americans on side. They want the oss, they want Donovan there. But then when they actually start doing stuff, they're a bit like, hang on a sec, you want to drop people into France? That's kind of what we do in SOE or in other places. And, you know, you're just going to kind of blunder into our operations and it will get into trouble. And you kind of. They described the OSS as kind of playing cowboys and Indians. You can sense this slight kind of jealousy, slight friction as the OSS increasingly scale up and become doing what MI6 and SOE were doing.

[A]

Yeah. Be careful what you wish for, I guess, in your influence operations, Gordon. The organization, though, really reflects the recklessness of the boss. Because, I mean, Donovan, he's not sitting around in a desk, is he, during the war? I mean, you would think he's sort of sitting at his HQ in London or in D.C. and kind of making decisions and sitting behind a desk and talking to Roosevelt. But that's not really what he's doing, is it?

[B]

Right from the start, he is out there in the field. He is taking every opportunity he can to get into war zones. He would alarm his own staff and the Joint Chiefs because he wanted to see his guys in action. And I mean, his own, you know, Special assistant, Fisher Howe, in an interview, described his boss as irresponsibly adventuresome. He was doing things that no head of intelligence should have been doing. I mean, there's one great story about the way he operated, because one of the things in the Research and Development wing at oss, they were doing was doing gadgets. And under this guy, Stanley Lovell, who Donovan called Professor Moriarty, you know, he's developing different kind of gadgets. Amongst other things, explosive powder made to look like flour, which could be kneaded and baked into bread, which was codenamed Aunt Jemima for some reason. And during one test, explodes and sends shards of steel close to Donovan's head. And the lab is also developing female sex hormones which they want to inject into Hitler's food. They've got K pills to knock people out, L pills, cyanide pills, truth drugs, which they're going to try out on people looking at biological weapons. But then one of the things that they try and develop is a silenced pistol to use for assassinations and covert actions. And by 1944, they've got a breakthrough by fitting a silencer to a pistol. Donovan brings it to the White House because he wants to show it to fdr. FDR is busy, you know, in a meeting, and Donovan thinks to himself, well, this is my chance to show off how good these silences are. So he, in the White House, he sets up a sandbag and across the room fires 10 rounds into the sandbag in the White House using this silenced pistol. And then, you know, FDR finishes his meeting, comes in the room, and Donovan pulls out the sandbag and goes, hey, look, I just fired 10 shots into this sandbag. And no one noticed because our silencer is so good. I mean, he's literally shooting guns in the White House.

[A]

Well, fdr, you might think, well, you know, is the President sort of angry about gunfire in the White House? And it's the exact opposite, isn't it? I mean, FDR is actually so impressed that he decides to keep the silencer, and it is actually now on display at his presidential library in Hyde Park, New York. So job well done, Wild Bill. Job well done. Way to. Way to read. The first customer there. That's perfect.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I don't. I don't. I don't think current CIA directors would. Would try that these days. Well, maybe. I don't know. But this idea of he wants to be where the action is. D day is approaching 1944. It's so funny because all the senior military specifically say Donovan must not take part in D Day. Like, you know, the fact they have to say that and give orders not to do it. And yet Donovan is still like, I'm going to. And Douglas Waller, in his book on Donovan, you know, talks about Eisenhower, agrees that there is no way that America's top intelligence officer should be doing the D day landing on the beach.

[A]

We're not talking about coming in later on the beach.

[B]

No, no, he's trying. He's trying to get there on the beach. So Donovan is kind of going around and even though he's been ordered not to do it, he turns on his charm and kind of goes round Navy friends going, can you get me onto one of the ships? And so by D Day, June 1944, he is off Utah beach in Normandy as the invasion comes. He can't get on immediately, so eventually, within hours, he's basically commandeering a boat. Straps on his helmet, pins on his medal of honour, climbs down a rope onto a launch and tells the kind of helmsman, get me to the beach. And then it looks like he might have to swim the last 20 yards. But then he hails one of these amphibious trucks, which is like a duck, to get him to land. Do you know, I was reading about these ducks. Do you know these duck. Duck boat things, which are kind of both boats and they can go on land. Have you seen those?

[A]

Oh, sure.

[B]

Because they used to have them as tourist boats.

[A]

They have them in the States, too.

[B]

Yeah, they used to be tourist boats on the Thames. You could go on one of these duck boats. And I was looking it up and I was thinking, well, are they copies? No, they were like, those were the actual World War II duck boats. Boats that they just kept.

[A]

So it's not even the same type. It's just an actual boat.

[B]

It's not even the same type. They're actual World War II duck boats.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then they're taking tourists around the kind of Thames in London. So, you know, Donovan gets onto one of those.

[A]

And so he runs into some trouble on the beach, though.

[B]

Yeah. Because then four German Messerschmitts strafe him on the beach, rolls off, uses the duck for cover. He's there with his London station chief from oss, who kind of falls on him and draws blood. The pair of them start walking miles, and it's just the two of them. You know, this is America's top intelligence officer, and with his head of station in London, walking basically a day after D day through the war zone. At one point, they enter a field. Enemy machine guns open up from a hedgerow. And then Donovan says to David, his assistant, you understand, of course, David, that neither of us must be captured. We know too much. Donovan is saying, we're gonna have to use our L pills to kill us if we're captured. Which is kind of obvious. And then I love this fact, you know, his assistant, you know, his station chief says he hasn't got his. And Donovan says he's got two, and then he realizes he's left them at Claridge's.

[A]

Well, who has it? Who hasn't left their suicide pills at Claridge's before, Gordon? I mean, it's just, you know, you're always doing. That happens. I'm always leaving them behind and putting them, you know, on the bathroom counter. But, I mean, Donovan is kind of thinking that someone, someone might get killed at Claridge's, right? Because he says, you know, never mind, you know, we could do without them. But if we get out of here, you must send a message to Gibbs, the hall porter at Claridge's in London, telling him on no account to allow the servants in the hotel to touch some dangerous medicines in my bathroom.

[B]

Could you imagine? I mean, that's what he's worried about. You know, he's in this war zone. He's worried about someone taking his pills, and then they still think they're going to get shot. And Donovan says, I must shoot first. And, you know, David, his assistant, says, you know, yes, but we can't do much against the machine guns with our pistols. And Donovan goes, no, you don't understand. I mean, if we're about to be captured, I'll shoot you first. After all, I'm your commanding officer. So he's basically saying, you know, with our pistols, we've got to take each other out. But luckily, I think at that point, Allied planes and artillery open up and they escape and eventually they find a command post. But, you know, that is pure Donovan, isn't it?

[A]

And there was zero logic to doing any of this, right? I mean, there's no. There's no value for the OSS period in having Donovan on the beach. But it makes for a great story and it adds to the lore. I mean, there is this great line from David Bruce later on about Donovan. And on D day, Donovan apparently told David Bruce that he had arranged to be buried at Arlington Cemetery and asked Bruce if he had done the same. And when Bruce said no, Donovan replied, you should get a plot near mine. Then we could start an underground together. This was. This was one of these great Donovan sort of exchanges where you wonder how much of it's true and how much of it's not. And yet it all sort of adds up to this, you know, because this is a story that aide of his is telling three decades later about the man, the legend give you a sense of. Yeah, the legend that has, has built up around him.

[B]

Yeah. So as the war comes to an end, you know, he's still coming up with these wild plans and he wants to send out 22 assassins to kill senior Germans, including Hitler and Goering. But just before they plan to do that, Donovan reconsiders, you know, thinking it would be a mistake. So the, the war is coming to an end. I mean, there have been amazing operations in Europe, people behind enemy lines. Also a lot of really interesting stuff in, in Asia as well. But now with the war coming to an end, the battle is not over for Donovan because he's gonna fight the biggest battle, I guess, in his career. And it's gonna come in Washington.

[A]

Oh, and maybe there. Gordon. Let's take a break. And when we come back, we will see how he gets on in the biggest bureaucratic fight of his life. This episode is brought to you by Attio, the CRM for the AI era.

[B]

Now, David, people think that spycraft is just car chases and secret codes, but an awful lot of it is just idling around waiting for the action.

[A]

It's a bit like starting your own business. You think it's going to be as easy as creating and selling a product. But the reality is business owners spend far too long trying to get their CRM to fit a system not built for them.

[B]

Attio's AI driven CRM enables you to take control of your platform to build something from the ground up that fits your needs.

[A]

James Bond had Q's, X ray shades, an explosive watch and a pen grenade. Business owners have adeo's real time customer insights and platform that grows with them. All tools relevant for your mission to build a company from the ground up.

[B]

Attio even has something called agent collaboration.

[A]

Yes, but in this case, that means giving people the ability to let AI work seamlessly in the background for them.

[B]

Try Attio for [e-mail] trick.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

[B]

A breach used to require a four store or a lifted file. Now it begins the moment you join a dodgy public WI fi network.

[A]

Leave one device exposed and operators can map your online activity in moments. NORDVPN shuts that down. One click encrypts your connection, stopping public networks, turning into blind spots and keeping your traffic secure wherever you log on.

[B]

NordVPN's Threat Protection Pro feature blocks malicious links, phishing sites, and even scans downloads for viruses. It's like having your own cyber bodyguard. And if you're abroad. You can shift your virtual location for the sites you rely on or check whether prices change by region before you buy.

[A]

To get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com restisclassified Our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan. There's no risk with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. The link is in the episode description box.

[C]

This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Carvana lets you buy your next car on your terms. Explore a massive inventory online filter for what matters and find your perfect match. Then choose delivery to your home or pick it up at one of Carvana's iconic car vending machines. Every car also comes with a seven day money back guarantee, so you can make sure it's the right fit. Buy your car on Carvana. Delivery or pickup fees may apply. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our 7 day return policy at Carvana.com Carvana.

[A]

Well, welcome back and I guess Gordon, sadly for William Donovan, Wild Bill, the war is over. This actually is a very, very sad moment for him and eventually, I guess, for the oss, the question is, what's.

[B]

Going to happen next? And even as the war is drawing to a close in the kind of period up to the end of it, Donovan is spending his time, yes, in London, in his kind of command center, in, in Claridge's, which I love the fact takes up an entire floor of Claridge's, an entire floor.

[A]

Very expensive today. Very expensive.

[B]

It would be very expensive today. As you'd know, he's thinking what happens after the war. And November 1944, he sends a memo to Roosevelt outlining what became known as the Donovan Plan. And this is a proposal for a permanent civilian run worldwide intelligence service, a Central Intelligence Agency for the President. Makes sense. But the problem is Donovan has a lot of enemies, doesn't he? And they're going to go for him.

[A]

And I guess top of that list is going to be Hoover and the Phoebes.

[B]

Yeah, the Phoebes really don't like it. I mean, and you look at it, during the war, there've been all of these battles. Hoover is also trying to build his own intelligence service around the world. So Thebes are going out to embassies to kind of track threats against the US but also secretly to kind of build Hoover's network. Also, Donovan is going, he goes to Moscow and he gets an agreement to set up intelligence liaison with the nkvd, the forerunner of the kgb. You know, both of them are trying to do that. But then Hoover is also unhappy about that because he doesn't want more liaison and Soviet spies running around. And he's going to spread rumors that the OSS is full of Commies. Hoover's got the kind of gossip about the private life of Donovan, and he's kind of spreading that gossip. And Hoover has got his own plan. You know, Hoover wants the FBI to basically take charge of a peacetime intelligence service which is not just domestic, but throughout the world, with the Navy and the military just supporting it in war and in theaters of war. So you can sense the kind of the intrinsic bureaucratic as well as personal tension between those two sides.

[A]

And I guess it's not just tension with other civilian intelligence services or little pockets of, you know, other federal agencies that are civilian, that have an intelligence capacity, but it's also with the Pentagon, with the military, because, I mean, Donovan, he's actually had more of a struggle getting information from some parts of the military than he has from, say, the Brits. And he's got that really consequential rival in general Douglas MacArthur who I guess had more or less kept the OSS or tried to keep the OSS out, out of the Pacific theater during the war.

[B]

And it's interesting as well how far some of the kind of tension and resentment with MacArthur goes back to World War I. There's actually tension back to the very start. One of the battles In World War I that Donovan is decorated for, MacArthur is also involved in that. And, you know, there's some question about whether Donovan resents MacArthur for not supporting him in battle at Land at St. George. But others thinking that MacArthur is jealous and thinks that, you know, Donovan is a kind of reckless operator and is also jealous that Donovan got the Medal of Honor and he hadn't. So you can see actually with a lot of the military guys, they just don't like him. The military are going to, particularly the army, are going to kind of draw up this 59 page memo which is going to really lay into Donovan and oss.

[A]

I mean, I guess there's also the accusation that Donovan, Donovan's organization has been penetrated by the Brits, right?

[B]

Yeah. And that's another one of the kind of smears that his rivals put out against him is that basically he's too close, he's virtually owned by the Brits.

[A]

And I guess he's also totally dependent on his relationship with fdr. And that obviously is going to be a weakness. But throughout the war, it's made a lot of people very resentful of. Of Donovan's influence over the President.

[B]

Yeah. And I think there are lots of resentments, you know, in rivalries, and they're going to leak his plan to the press, you know, and then there's going to be the classic sensationalist headlines that the plan is to create an American Gestapo under Donovan, which is going to pry into everyone's lives. It's going to be a kind of political secret police. All of this is making it hard for FDR to support it. It's interesting because with some of those leaks, Donovan thinks, well, it must be, you know, Hoover who's done this. There are some claims it could have even been fdr. And people around him as well, are also trying to kill the plan and not have their finger prints on it, because actually, they don't. They don't actually want this guy to be running it either. So he's hitting some pretty big headwinds.

[A]

Do you know who Donovan had breakfast with the morning after he discovered FDR had passed?

[B]

Was it a shadowy British spymaster?

[A]

It was a shadowy future American spymaster. It was none other than William Jake Casey, who will lead the CIA under Reagan and who at that point is an OSS officer. And Casey and Donovan are breakfasting. This news, obviously, the FDR has passed, has just come to Paris, and Casey asks, what do you think it means for the organization? And Donovan says, I'm afraid it's probably the end.

[B]

And he's so right. And he's so right, because FDR is gone, his protector's gone, and the new president, Truman, he doesn't know that much about intelligence. Famously, he didn't know that they'd been developing the atomic bomb, which. Which is.

[A]

So he's a haberdasher. He's a haberdasher from Missouri.

[B]

Yeah. And so Donovan had relied on that personal kind of relationship and friendship with fdr. And now Truman is looking at this guy who is this kind of Republican, kind of reckless guy. The first meeting, I think, is really chilly, just goes on for 15 minutes. And of course, Truman is smart enough to think, I don't want a spy service run by either Hoover, J. Edgar Hoover, or Donovan. I don't want either of these guys to be running my global spy service.

[A]

Well, and I guess then, sadly, the OSS is formally shut down, because on September 20, 1945, I mean, really, just weeks after the end of the war, Truman signs Executive Order 9621, which dissolves the OSS. Its components get scattered about. I do love this, though. So there's there's obviously a frantic shutdown here, right, with sources are terminated, operations are stopped. But what do you do with all the paperwork? And Donovan. Donovan basically creates 131 rolls of film that he then copies of of these documents, pictures of the documents, and he sends them to his law firm so he can hold on to as many files as possible, maybe in the hopes of making a comeback.

[B]

Yeah, and it's really interesting, isn't it, because he does spend the next few years thinking he's going to make a comeback. I mean, his first job is after this kind of dissolution. He's sent to the Nuremberg Trials as an assistant to the US Chief prosecutor. But what's interesting is he doesn't give up hope that he will return as the kind of spymaster because of course, you know, Truman has deliberately decided, I don't want this spy service run by Donovan and Hoover. But he quickly realizes I am going to need a Central Intelligence Agency. You know, I'm going to need that. So within a year or two of dissolving oss, he is creating the Central Intelligence Group and then the CIA, isn't he?

[A]

Yeah, It's, I guess, kind of ironic and probably was very frustrating to Donovan because it's more or less what gets created is exactly what Donovan had suggested. Right. It's a central agency that's part of the executive branch, that reports to the President. It is going to inherit a lot of OSS veterans because they were part of the wartime spy service and have that experience. It makes perfect sense. But not Donovan.

[B]

He's out. He still kind of seems to be hoping that he might come back. So 1952, he's campaigning for Eisenhower to win the Republican, hoping that therefore, you know, when Eisenhower wins, Donovan might get appointed a CIA director. And instead Eisenhower chooses. I mean, it must be really painful because he chooses one of Donovan's subordinates, Alan Dulles, to be the. The head of the CIA. I mean, more of a bureaucrat, more of a kind of political operator, I guess, than Donovan, but must have been pretty disappointing.

[A]

Well, and then Donovan gets sent to Thailand to be. Which I find to be a very random sort of coda at the end of the Wild Bill Donovan story, because Eisenhower appoints him as the U.S. ambassador to Thailand. He serves there from 1953-54. But I guess at this stage his health is really starting to. To decline. I think he was a big fan of drinking and also a big fan of eating steaks. And those two things, I think, do, do catch up to you over Time. So he's showing signs of dementia and sort of overall physical deterioration by the mid-1950s.

[B]

Yeah. So he ends up at Walter Reed Hospital in Washington with dementia, gets lots of visitors from his OSS days. Eisenhower visits him and later tells someone that, you know, Donovan was the last hero. But then I love this detail. You know, he often tries to escape his bedroom at the hospital and has to be coaxed back by the nurses. And he's reliving those World War I battles, and he's reliving kind of D Day and being on Utah Beach. He's reliving flying over Burma. And he starts to see these visions of the Red army coming over the 59th Street Bridge and into Manhattan. And in his last mission, he's kind of fleeing the hospital and walking down the street in his pajamas to kind of confront the invading Red Army. But he's approaching the end, but still living out this kind of fantasy life, I guess, as this great hero, which he was in many ways must have.

[A]

Been really rough on the nurses. This sounds like a terrible patient to have with these insane kind of visions and stories. But, you know, he passes at the age of 76 on the 8th of February, 1959. And I think this is. This is kind of remarkable because he never led the CIA, as we said up front. But when he does pass, the CIA sends a cable out worldwide to all station chiefs saying, quote, the man more responsible than any other for the existence of the Central Intelligence Agency has passed away.

[B]

Yeah, it's quite a tribute, isn't it? He is an extraordinary character. I mean, you can argue about how successful the OSS was. I think a bit like Britain's SOE in the war. It made a lot of noise and, you know, distracted a lot of Germans. How strategically successful the Office of Strategic Services was, I think, you know, is perhaps a kind of open question. I think it's fair to say. But that's kind of not the point, is it, with Donovan?

[A]

Yo. Don't you think it basically had no impact, though?

[B]

I mean, that's what some people say, isn't it? I think Helms, you know, later runs the CIA, says, I don't think it made any difference or much difference. There were some successes, but, you know, he says it was not a howling success as an organization. I mean, I mean, maybe that is true individually. You know, did this operation shorten the war by this much or that much? I think some of these resistance groups and sabotage groups, they helped. They did play a role, though, I think, in kind of supporting Morale and encouraging resistance on the ground. Did they change the course of the war? A bit less obvious? I think when it comes to the kind of paramilitary groups, I think, I.

[A]

Mean what certainly is enduring though is the legacy that donovan and the OSS created and I think really bequeathed to the early CIA as it's developing as an organization in the late 40s and early 50s at kind of this, the height of the Cold War. I mean Donovan's character and personality were sort of deeply imprinted on the way the organization worked. And I mean the number of CIA directors who came out of the OSS I think is, is really ecstatic. This, this wartime experience really shaped the first three, four decades of the agency's life and existence, you know, and so, and that was all built, you know, the personality cult makes it sound too creepy and weird, but it's all built around the personality of Wild Bill Donovan.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, isn't it? Because I think the combination of different elements into what become the CIA and are there in OSS again a quite unique. And it's different from MI6 because I think MI6 is really quite single mindedly an intelligence gathering organization. Paramilitary stuff is there in SOE in Britain and in the sas, whereas in US it's all there in OSS under Donovan because of his personality, because of his military background, because of what he's into. And you see that kind of go into CIA. And that is also one of the differences between CIA and MI6 today is that the CIA has this kind of paramilitary wing. He's more interested and more willing and greater history of going into kind of combat operations and being the kind of tip of the spear in a way that MI6 has never quite done, I think. So I think that's one of the interesting differences there. I mean other kind of bits that come out of it, I think bureaucratic warfare, the battle with the thieves. You can see right from the earliest days the FBI, CIA rivalry which is definitely there for decades onwards. You can see the roots here, can't you? As well as some of the other tensions that exist. And of course the ability of the Brits to happily manipulate the Americans. Another great legacy of Donovan's time.

[A]

It is, it is. I don't think I understood the full extent of how involved the Brits were in shaping the idea, the American idea of a centralized intelligence agency. And it is also, you know, I think there's a big question in my mind Gordon around. We are now in a new century, right from the creation of the original CIA back in 1947. And you kind of think, okay, well, I think probably somewhere around the 80s, we sort of lost a lot of the kind of cultural connection between the age of Bill Donovan and the OSS and the sort of CIA was really gone by the time you get into the late Cold War. You know, the CIA had become something much different. But you wonder nowadays with, I think, maybe the need to reshape the agency into something different, given the challenges from China, given the challenge of kind of reimagining a lot of the tradecraft, given, you know, sort of the technological environment around us, which, by the way, is something we'll be talking about in a couple episodes next week with a very special guest. Do you have a system where you can have a founder like Bill Donovan who can imprint the organization in such a strong way? Like, is that even possible anymore? Or have we just moved? Have we moved beyond the ability of a single minded, really colorful, somewhat deranged person to kind of remake an intelligence agency in his or her image? I don't know. I think maybe it's not possible anymore. The scale is just so, so different.

[B]

Yeah, they're bureaucratized in a different way that I just don't think you could shape it in that same way. And I certainly can't imagine current chiefs being like Bill Donovan or surviving. You know, you've got to be a bureaucratic player. You've got to be a manager. You've got to know how to play those games in a way that Donovan didn't in order to kind of survive. Now, I think, you know, he was that kind of wartime leader. He was the right leader of an intelligence agency at wartime, given his record, but not necessarily one for the Cold War and the relative peace that came afterwards. You required a kind of different type of intelligence. You can see Donovan wasn't the right man for that. It did need to move on, and you needed someone different for him. So, yeah, I think it's a really interesting kind of question about leadership and culture and spy agencies.

[A]

Well, yeah, and his legacy certainly does live on. I mean, there's, you know, Casey, who's having breakfast with him the morning that found out that FDR died and he commissioned a statue of Donovan, which is up at Langley. And I think that tip of the spear mentality that Donovan lived and breathed lives on. I mean, the logo for the CIA's Directorate of Operations today is tip of the spear with a gold spearhead and a black background. So you can still see that sort of legacy of Donovan in Just the way the agency sort of attempts to portray itself and talks about itself today.

[B]

And I like to think you're living out the legacy, David. Staying at Claridge's in London.

[A]

I'm doing my small park Ordon.

[B]

You are living the legend.

[A]

I'm doing what I can. I'm staying at Claridge's. I'm in the middle of a vast gold hanger funded influence operation to affect my very heart and mind. I'm just doing what I can.

[B]

Living the legacy of Wild Bill. That's right. So there we go.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

There was the story of Wild Bill. Just a reminder that if you are a club member, if you remember the Declassified club, we have got a very special episode which is the best of the Rest is classified in 2025 which you can listen to it if you're not a member. Why not? It's Christmas time. Spread some Christmas cheer. Join the [e-mail] it's not too late.

[A]

Because this episode is going out on Christmas Eve. Uh, so you know it's Christmas Eve, there's still time to stuff a Rest is classified membership for your nearest and dearest into your Santa sack and give that to them for a trip down the chimney tonight. That sounds we we should also say that these will not be the last episodes of the year. We will return in that horrific week between Christmas and New Year's where all seems lost and we will be back with some final episodes next week to kind of close out 2025. And as I said, we'll have a very special guest who will be with us to talk about how human espionage is changing in a world of phones, cameras, sensors, cheap storage and AI. So do tune in for those, I think. We've also got some tickets remaining for our live show in London on the 31st of January that last few. So be one of the lucky ones. To get that, go to the restisclassified.com and grab yours. If not, Merry Christmas. Ho ho ho and ho ho ho. We'll see you next time.

[B]

See you next time.

[A]

The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info.

[B]

And more places that could expose you more to identity theft.

[A]

But Lifelock monitors millions of data points per second.

[B]

If your identity is stolen, our US based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed your money back.

[A]

Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with Lifelock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.

[B]

Hello I'm Professor Hannah Fry.

[A]

And I'm Michael Stevens, creator of Vsauce. We thought we would join you for.

[B]

A moment completely uninvited. We are not going stay too long. Unless you want us to.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

We're here to tell you about our brand new show.

[A]

The rest is science.

[B]

Every episode is going to start with something that feels initially familiar, and then we're going to unpick it and tear it apart until you no longer recognize it at all. You know our banana flavor doesn't taste like bananas.

[A]

Yeah, what is that about?

[B]

So it is supposed to taste like an old species of banana that was wiped out or in a bananapocalypse. And now you will only find it in botanical collections in the gardens of billionaires.

[A]

Wow. Banana candy is actually the ghost of a long extinct banana.

[B]

So if you like scratching the surface, thinking a little bit deeper or weirder. Yes, definitely.

[A]

That too.

[B]

You can join Michael and I every Tuesday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.