Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified – Ep. 113

How To Protect Your Secrets: Is The Toaster Spying On You? (Ep 2)

Date: December 31, 2025
Hosts: David McCloskey (former CIA analyst & novelist), Gordon Corera (security correspondent)
Guest: Glenn Chaffetz (former CIA officer & chief of tradecraft and operational technology)

Episode Overview

This episode continues a deep dive into the collision between modern technology and the world of espionage. The hosts and guest examine how technological advancements—especially in surveillance, communications, AI, and quantum computing—are fundamentally reshaping how spies operate, protect secrets, and interact with their sources. The tone seamlessly blends informed expertise, historical anecdotes, and a dose of humor, making complex issues both accessible and compelling.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Modern Espionage (02:38 – 04:12)

• Spying in a Tech-Saturated World: Modern cities bristle with cameras and facial recognition, making old-school tradecraft increasingly difficult.
• Constant Surveillance: For undercover officers or assets, "constant surveillance poses them an acute threat." (Gordon, 02:38)
• Introduction of Glenn Chaffetz: Glenn, a high-ranking ex-CIA officer, returns to help unpack how tech is changing espionage.

2. Evolution of Clandestine Communication (04:12 – 12:19)

• Historical Methods: Examples include Cold War spy Tolkachev’s note drops, WWII pigeons, and the “spy rock” in Moscow—a fake rock hiding a radio receiver.
  • Quote: “The Brits, Gordon, are very creative in this field... cooking up the idea of using semen for secret writing.” (David, 07:16)
• Invisible Ink: “Invisible ink... was to use for invisible ink, which I guess was another method of clandestine communication.” (Gordon, 07:47)
• Digital Communication’s Pitfall:
  • Quote: “The problem with digital communication... is again, that people have to think about what other people can see or hear or acquire and when... the challenge in the digital age is for those who are communicating to work it out so that they hide... the signature of the communication as well as its content.” (Glenn, 08:14)
• Metadata is as Dangerous as Content:
  • Quote: “...if Gordon and David, you communicate via signal, with some exceptions, no one's going to know what the content... is. [But] they're going to know that you're communicating. And that's just as bad...” (Glenn, 08:14)
• How Surveillance Works Now: Anyone can buy metadata from tech firms or brokers and reconstruct your entire network and behavior.
  • Quote: “I could establish your network, David. I just buy the data about who you text, who you email... You buy that data, you run it through an algorithm: here’s David’s network.” (Glenn, 11:08)

3. Pegasus, Malware, & Vulnerabilities (13:52 – 16:35)

• Pegasus Malware:
  • Quote: “When you open up your iMessage or signal message... that's what Pegasus is reading... it hasn't broken the encryption, it's reading it in the clear.” (Glenn, 14:06)
• Metadata in Investigations: “You don't have to have the content of the call... just to know that you're in contact.” (Glenn, 14:33) Used in insider trading probes and sensitive business cases.

4. The Globalization and Privatization of Intelligence (16:09 – 20:07)

• Commercialization and Scale: Proliferation of advanced spy tech from governments to commercial actors widens the threat.
  • Quote: “Intelligence... has jumped the tracks. It’s a mass activity where both the intelligence collectors are no longer full time professionals—they are business people.” (Glenn, 17:07)
• China as an ‘Intelligent State’:
  • Quote: “China has turned its whole country into an intelligent state... to steal economic information from the US, UK, Japan... and expanded intelligence and attacks on adversaries into the private sector.” (Glenn, 17:07)
• Chinese Intelligence Law: Companies must cooperate with Chinese intelligence, blending national and commercial espionage.

5. Quantum Computing and the Future of Encryption (21:03 – 25:54)

• Quantum Decryption Nightmare:
  • Quote: “Quantum decrypts in... seconds or minutes or hours, that which under traditional encryption would take centuries.” (Glenn, 21:03)
  • “We won't know anybody has quantum decryption until it already exists... we're not going to know if an adversary has that until after we're already sunk.” (Glenn, 21:03)
• Historical Parallels:
  • Quote: “The parallel to me is always a bit like Bletchley Park... you keep it quiet and keep selling the people the idea that their messages are completely unbreakable.” (Gordon, 22:24)

6. Cheap Drones & the Rise of Physical Surveillance (29:51 – 34:15)

• Drones as Surveillance Tools:
  • Quote: “If you think you're safe because you're on the 40th floor...and I just park a quiet, small drone outside that window and photograph the whole thing...” (Glenn, 32:28)
• Threat Beyond Defense: Many businesses remain vulnerable, lacking counter-drone programs—surveillance not just for governments anymore.

7. The Internet of Things: Everyday Espionage (34:15 – 39:04)

• Everything is a Sensor: Phones, fridges, cars, even toasters can betray your information.
  • Quote: “Your fridge speaks to the internet... It may be able to tell someone... is this person at home? Have they not opened the fridge for two days?” (Gordon, 34:34)
• Consumer Data Trails: Loyalty cards, digital payment, credit cards—all build detailed personal profiles.
  • “The wonderful thing about cash is it divorced your identity from your behavior.” (Glenn, 35:59)
• Vulnerable Smart Devices: “People have their Wi-Fi hacked by someone going in through... a washing machine or a refrigerator... Am I doing software updates on the washing machine?” (David, 38:46)
  • Glenn’s retort: “Your toaster is spying on you. That could be the title of your next book. It's horrifying.” (Glenn, 38:57)

8. Artificial Intelligence: The Disruptor (39:04 – 43:24)

• Acceleration and Automation:
  • Quote: “It speeds up collection, analysis, interpretation... an offensive weapon in terms of collection, a potential tool for counterintelligence and analysis.” (Glenn, 39:36)
• Deep Fakes & Identity: Face/voice spoofing makes even remote vetting uncertain.
  • “Now... that's going to get harder and harder... You talked about identity earlier, Gordon... you have identity over video chats—and I think that's easier to disguise.” (Glenn, 39:36)
• Trust Crisis: “You have the inability to separate facts from fiction.” (Glenn, 41:32)

9. The Shrinking Demand and Importance of Human (HUMINT) Espionage (43:24 – 47:40)

• Less Supply but Also Less Demand: While tech makes recruitment harder, the explosion of available data means fewer questions must be answered with HUMINT.
  • Quote: “A lot of the questions... where we would have tasked human collection, we don't need to anymore.” (David, 44:37)
• Human Insight Is Still Irreplaceable:
  • “None of that data can tell me what a foreign adversary leader... perceives at a particular time, what he intends. That can only be gleaned from someone in the inner circle.” (Glenn, 42:07)
• Team Sport:
  • “It's become much more of a team sport now... The best operations have a bit of all these elements... blending cyber, signals, and human intelligence.” (Glenn, 47:12)

10. Adapting to the New World Order (48:07 – 53:17)

• China’s 'National Theft Program':
  • “Our national security establishment is not set up to deal with this... It was set up to do with the Cold War and terrorism, not a gray zone war on the US private sector.” (Glenn, 49:03)
• Western Model Lagging Behind:
  • Direct question: “Are we adapting?” (David, 48:24)
  • Blunt answer: “No, no, we're not. I mean, we're playing two different games.” (Glenn, 48:28)
• Business & National Security Merging: In China and Russia, the line between private and state actors is erased.

11. The Future Case Officer: Data, Networks, and Identity (51:00 – 53:17)

• Next-Gen Spy Skills:
  • “It's going to involve a lot more reliance on data and technology than it does now... much greater technological aptitude... to be able to separate out fakes from reality.” (Glenn, 51:24)
• China’s Model: “They've turned their whole country into intelligence collectors through... law and this massive establishment and a giant cyber intrusion force. It's an intelligent state.” (Glenn, 53:02)
• Novelists Are the Real Victims:
  • “The real downside here for novelists—novelists are the ultimate losers in this case.” (David, 53:56)
  • Glenn suggests: “Two words for you, David. Historical fiction.” (Glenn, 54:33)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On digital surveillance:
  “You have the content of the communication, the fact of the communication, and the signature of the communication method... It's a tremendous challenge.” — Glenn Chaffetz (08:14)

• On the increasing impossibility of secrecy:
  “We're not going to know if an adversary has [quantum decryption] until after we're already sunk.” — Glenn Chaffetz (21:03)

• On the omnipresence of sensors:
  “Your toaster is spying on you.” — Glenn Chaffetz (38:57)

• On the future of HUMINT:
  “The opportunities for humint have shrunk... But there’s still a role. None of that data can tell me what a foreign adversary leader... perceives at a particular time, what he plans, what he intends.” — Glenn Chaffetz (42:07)

• On storytelling and spycraft:
  “That meeting of the source in the parking garage... does it work anymore? Not really. So, the real downside here for novelists—novelists are the ultimate losers in this case.” — David McCloskey (53:56)

  • “Historical fiction. That’s the takeaway—revert to the past, baby!” — Glenn Chaffetz (54:33)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:38 — How life is harder for modern spies in smart cities
• 04:12 — Communication in espionage, Cold War to today
• 08:14 — Digital trails, metadata, and the lasting risks they pose
• 13:52 — Pegasus, phone hacking, and how malware has changed the game
• 17:07 — China, corporate espionage, and global data theft
• 21:03 — Quantum computing and the future collapse of encryption
• 29:51 — Consumer drones and their impact on surveillance
• 34:34 — The Internet of Things: everyday devices as intelligence tools
• 39:04 — The double-edged sword of AI in intelligence
• 42:07 — The shrinking, but irreplaceable, need for humans in espionage
• 48:24 — Comparing Chinese and Western intelligence models
• 51:24 — Skills and challenges for future case officers
• 53:56 — Tech’s impact on spy novels and storytelling

Conclusion

The episode offers a wide-ranging, nuanced look at the seismic changes rocking espionage in the technological era—where everything from your phone to your fridge could betray you, and where adversaries measure success in giant data lakes and quantum exploits rather than microfilm. With insight, candor, and dark humor, McCloskey, Corera, and Chaffetz illuminate both the challenges and possibilities for the spy, the business, and the citizen alike.

“We started off with a former chief of MI6 saying adapt or die, basically, when it comes to technology... Technology is making us all kind of spied on, all spies, but also restricting the space for some of the old-fashioned spying we think about.” — Gordon Corera (53:17)

For listeners who missed it, this episode is as much a cautionary tale as it is a masterclass in the evolving world of secrets, surveillance, and subterfuge.