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- [00:04]
David McCloskey
For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter and discounted books. Join the Declassified club@the restisclassified.com It's a.
- [00:18]
Gordon Carrera
Story about spying, yes, but also in war and betrayal.
- [00:21]
David McCloskey
Really remarkable figure in espionage history.
- [00:24]
Gordon Carrera
I think he's got a good claim to be the greatest traitor of the 20th century. This is a person who spends years in British intelligence in MI6, heading towards the top while all the time working for Moscow. And that trip leaves a deep impression. He's in Munich on the eve of an election and he actually attends a massive Nazi rally at which Hitler speaks.
- [00:46]
David McCloskey
In January, Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany. Horrified by Hitler and the rise of.
- [00:53]
Gordon Carrera
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- [01:08]
David McCloskey
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Gordon Carrera
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David McCloskey
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Gordon Carrera
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- [02:11]
David McCloskey
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Gordon Carrera
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David McCloskey
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Gordon Carrera
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David McCloskey
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- [02:39]
Gordon Carrera
Delivery fees may apply. This episode is brought to you by the Hillside Strangler. Get ready for the Hillside Strangler, the new MGM original docuseries revisiting LA's most terrifying serial murder case. Return to the investigation with legendary homicide detective Frank Salerno as he retraces the hunt that Consumed a city and for the first time on camera hear convicted killer Kenneth Bianchi share his disturbing account.
- [03:05]
David McCloskey
Watch the Hillside Strangler now on MGM.
- [03:08]
Gordon Carrera
New episode streaming Sundays.
- [03:19]
David McCloskey
He never seemed to identify himself with his country, even over sport. Although Kim was a very English person and much more at home in congenial English company than any other, he showed little affection for England or its countryside, cities, institutions and traditions. He had some regard for the qualities of English people as a whole, but much contempt for middle class virtues and middle class likes and dislikes. Though he never lacked physical or moral courage, one could not imagine him making patriotic gestures. Perhaps there should have been a clue in all this to his real feelings. But England is full of people who appear to have little patriotism, yet would not dream of spying against their country. Well, welcome to the Rest is classified. I'm David McCloskey.
- [03:56]
Gordon Carrera
And I'm Gordon Carrera.
- [03:58]
David McCloskey
And those are my candid thoughts on England and its people. This will be the only time in this four part series in which I evince any sympathy whatsoever for Kim Philby. But no, that was, that was Tim Milne, who is Kim Philby's oldest friend, I believe the nephew Gordon of A.A. milne, the creator of Winnie the Pooh, if I'm not mistaken.
- [04:21]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, bizarre reference.
- [04:23]
David McCloskey
Yeah, that's right. But Tim Milne was Kim Philby's oldest friend from school, later a colleague in the British Secret Intelligence Service. And today we are starting a four part series, really. I guess looking at young Philby Gordon, the first part of the. Of the life of this really remarkable figure in Ashley Binage history.
- [04:46]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, I think he's got a good claim to be the greatest traitor of the 20th century, one of the most consequential spies of all time. I mean he spends, this is a person who spends years in British intelligence, in MI6 heading towards the top, while all the time, every moment, all through those years working for Moscow. And he does untold damage to intelligence operations of not just the UK but also the United States. And I think he inflicts kind of real deep trauma on both MI6 and CIA that actually shapes both agencies through the entire Cold War.
- [05:26]
David McCloskey
Well, selfishly, I guess I should also mention, I think he has shaped spy fiction as well. I mean you have this, I think, real trope in the genre of mole hunts. And you see this in all manner of spy thrillers, I think most notably in John Le Carre's wonderful novel Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, which I mean in effect is based on Philby and takes a lot of elements from the story that we're going to tell and applies them to the fictional world of the Circus in the George Smiley universe that John Le Carre created. So Philby has this sort of massive impact on actual intelligence operations and then also in the way that we spy novelists render these intelligence operations in the pages of spy fiction.
- [06:15]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, that's right. I think feel like every kind of story of a mole hunt kind of nods to Philby, but then he's also. Even more than that. I mean, I, I think he has this kind of psychological trauma that he inflicts not just on MI6, but also the entire British establishment. And I think you could make the case that he's actually one of the most significant Britons of the 20th century. Significant, not one of the best. I'm not comparing him to Churchill or Thatcher or whoever else that's showing. Let me clarify that. But what I mean is, it's a story about spying, yes, but also in war and betrayal. But it's also about the kind of British obsessions with class, with the establishment, with the elite. All of that is in the Philby story. And I think for Brits, I find. I find the obsession with Philby fascinating because I think there is an element of almost masochism in British culture because, you know, lots of people exert a fascination for the public, but this individual Philby holds, you know, holds such a kind of, you know, a fascination for so many people, and yet he's, he was a traitor who betrayed them. So it is a kind of odd relationship I think Britain has with Philby. And it is such a big story that we should say we're going to do it in, in two, you know, sections, we're going to do young Philby now kind of going through his rise up, I guess, to the pinnacle of his achievements. And then later on we'll come back and look at his equally dramatic downfall.
- [07:44]
David McCloskey
I guess in a proper sort of dose Gordon of moral clarity, we should just say up front, this is. He's a bad guy. Right. Like I, I want, I'm trying to corner you here because in our Snowden series that we did last year, you, you showed disturbingly kind of wishy washy sentiment about the, the, the ethics of what Teddy Snowden had done. And I think it's fair to say you'll show no such sympathies here. Is that right?
- [08:15]
Gordon Carrera
Well, I don't want to enhance my reputation because some of your friends, I think some of your former agency colleagues see me as some kind of pinko commie. But I do have some kind of. What's the word? Not sympathy, residual respect for Phil Beat. First of all, let me just say I think he's a lot classier than the CIA traitors. Your traitors are like Aldrich Ames, who's the equivalent is just basically a guy who's trying to betray the CIA for some, for some better teeth than to buy a Jaguar car. I mean, that's all. That's what he, you know, Philby is much classier. You know, we have a classier kind of traitor. That's, that's the first thing to say.
- [08:51]
David McCloskey
I feel like we're having two different conversations here immediately. The comparison point was how classy, how classy of a traitor is he? So we're just comparing it. We're not comparing him to all of the, the sort of loyal intelligence officers in either Secret Service. It's just a comparison among those who have betrayed the Secret Service. I would give you, I would give you that. I mean, we also looked last year at the case of Edward Lee Howard, who betrayed the CIA and defected to Boscow. And you know, Edward Lee Howard was a way less classy guy than Kim Philby. Yeah, hard drinking, but, but not as classy as, as, but also I, I.
- [09:34]
Gordon Carrera
Also think there's another way of seeing the Philby story, because you could see it, David, as the story of a, A young man, an idealist with a strain of adventure, wants to fight fascism, falls in love, becomes a brave foreign correspondent and wants to change the world. Yes, he may then go on to be the country's greatest traitor, inflict untold damage on both British intelligence agencies, betray his friends, his colleagues, his country, and lead to the death of many agents. But we all make mistakes when we're young, David. I mean, that's, you know, we all, you know, youthful indiscretion, surely. I mean, that's my approach to Philby. You know, he's, he's a young guy, makes mistakes, gets trapped in them.
- [10:14]
David McCloskey
I mean, who, who, who hasn't sold out their entire country and Secret Service for a dose of youthful idealism? Gordon, you bring up, you bring up some great, some great points. I mean, also, I will say listeners who I think have become accustomed to Gordon Carrera just viciously editing the early lives of characters that appear in the rest is classified and showing no interest whatsoever in the loves, passions, family lives, interior lives of those that we cover on this pod are going to be in for a real surprise. Because, Gordon, you have, I mean, you have essentially, you've essentially written a four part series on the early and, you know, sort of family life of Kim Philby. So I don't know, I don't know what kind of, we should say we're recording this before Christmas. I don't know what kind of Christmas miracle has, has occurred, but. But you have changed your ways.
- [11:14]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, that's right. Because I think it is important. I think it is important, you know, in this context. Actually, his personal life is definitely, I think, the key to him as much as his ideological life.
- [11:23]
David McCloskey
Well, and I, I guess we should also say, because we're going to start this with a conversation about Philby's really pretty monstrous father, that Philby will be one in a long line of traitors who have real daddy issues. So I do think there is real merit to starting the story with the sort of upbringing and family life of Kim Philby. And we should say, even just before we get in, I think for those listeners who might say, oh man, you're starting a story in 1885 on the rest is classified. What has gotten into U2? I will say that because there is such a tremendous amount of scholarship on Kim Philby and to your point, Gordon, because he really casts such a long shadow over. So frankly over, as you know, both Secret Services, the CIA and SIS on both sides of the Atlantic, there's been a tremendous amount of work done on Philby. And I think what we have here is probably maybe one of the fullest psychological portraits you'll get of somebody who ends up making a decision to lead a double life for much of his adult life. And I think that's not something many of us understand fully. And we're gonna get kind of a character study in how a traitor sort of becomes a traitor to their crown and country. Gordon. But let's start, shall we, with the father, who is quite a character himself.
- [12:56]
Gordon Carrera
That's right. It's really a kind of amazing character study and we're going to be looking at it over these four episodes. Reminder, if you're a club member, you can get them all straight away and binge. And we're also going to delve a bit more into the Cambridge Spies with an author on them, Antonio Sr. And we're going to have some amazing material in being able to hear from Philby himself talking about this early life. But yes, let's get to the father, Harold St. John, but pronounced Sinjin, which is the way you do it, I'm afraid. Lots of strange British pronunciations come in.
- [13:28]
David McCloskey
When I read this. You actually had very Helpfully, phonetically, giving me some hints. This is. That can't be right though, right? You don't say St. John. It looks like St. John.
- [13:40]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, that's the way they do it. St. John, born 1885, goes to, and this will become relevant, Westminster School and Cambridge University. No money in the family, so not posh, not aristocratic, not rich, very good at languages, passes exams, goes to the Indian Civil service and heads to India. 1908, marries Dora, whose father also works in India, in 1910. Now, he's very young, still in his twenties, but lots of responsibility, you know, Britain running India at the time. Early reports already give a sign that he's interesting. They say that the father mixes a bit too much with the native element, much more than some of the other Brits. No hint of racism from him and he kind of advocates for Indian colleagues. So he's an independent minded character and a bit of a rule breaker. 1912, Harold Adrian Russell Philby is born. He is born, this child, in a bungalow in Ambala in the Punjab in India. His first language of this child is Hindi, the local language, which he talks to servants. And so the boy is nicknamed Kim, Kim Philby. And that's after a character in Rudyard Kipling's novel Kim. And the character in that novel is an orphaned child of a British soldier who grows up with locals in India and speaks many languages. And then this boy is, because he can kind of blend into different situations, the fictional Kim is recruited by British intelligence into the great game in Central Asia. The great game being the kind of battle between British and Russian intelligence nations in Central Asia, Afghanistan in the late 19th century. So this kind of weird thing that Kim Philby is called Kim because he's named after a kind of fictional spy when he's a child, which is a kind of weird bit of normative determinism, I guess, you know. As World War I starts, Kim Young Kim is sent back to England to be under the care of his grandmother and the father back to the father goes to the Middle east because the British military want to make use of his expertise in language. He goes around what's now Iran and Iraq with British troops protecting British oil fields. But the Brits are also trying to use Arab tribes to target the Ottoman Empire in what's now Turkey because it's allied with Germany on the other side of the war. Now, famously, this is what Lawrence of Arabia te Lawrence is up to. I'm sure you've seen a kind of brilliant David Lean film about that. Kim Philby's Father is also going to be involved in that game because it begins Philby Sr's love affair with the Middle East. And so in 1917, key moment in his life, he's sent as head of mission to meet a tribal leader called Ibn Saud in Central Arabia, who is a tribal leader who adheres to this more puritanical branch of Islam called Wahhabism. And Ibn Saud will later, later down the line, become king of a country named after him, Saudi Arabia. I mean, so already here, Kim Philby's dad is connected with the kind of founding of Saudi Arabia, which already kind of explains why he's a kind of unusual character.
- [16:50]
David McCloskey
I guess it provides the experience with Al Saud in what will become Saudi Arabia, I think creates maybe some distance between the father and the British Empire, doesn't it? Because he's also frustrated with the way the region is sort of carved up after the First World War.
- [17:11]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, that's right. Because at the end of the First World War, the, you know, basically the Brits and the French shockingly betray the Arabs who they've encouraged to rise up, giving them the hope of independence and don't give them that immediately, leading to much frustration and a bit like Lawrence of Arabia. Harold St. John Philby also becomes a kind of advocate for the Arab cause in this period. And interesting enough, Ibn Saud and his son Faisal, so both future kings of Saudi Arabia, come to Britain at one point and are looked after by Kim Philby's dad. There's a crazy story in, in the father's biography where the government failed to book a hotel for them. So he initially puts up these two future kings in Upper Norwood, which, no offense to any of our listeners in Upper Norwood, but is not the most glamorous part of South London. I don't know if you've ever been there, David. It's not.
- [18:05]
David McCloskey
But, you know, we're anti Upper. Upper Norwood.
- [18:09]
Gordon Carrera
No, I love Upper Norwood, but it's just not normally kind of, you know, take people, because he then takes them to see, like, you know, the king go to Selfridges and visit young Kim, who at this point is at his kind of prep school, his preparatory school in Surrey. And Kim, already at this point, young Kim, he hasn't seen his parents through the whole of the First World War. And he later says when they come back at the end of the World War, they're total strangers to him. He hasn't seen them for four years. He's this quiet boy, not many friends, bookish. His father does take him to See the cricket in 1919 Surrey cricket team, which is played, I think, the game then at the oval, which is just minutes walk, David from Goal Hanger hq. And cricket is going to become a theme in the Kevin Philby story, which I'm sure you're very pleased at.
- [18:53]
David McCloskey
I have done zero research on cricket in preparation for this on purpose, because I am. This is my. This is going to be my cricket school. You will finally, through the life and times of Kim Philby, you will finally teach me how this ridiculous game is played.
- [19:10]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, you're gonna learn a lot. Thanks to Kim's love of cricket.
- [19:13]
David McCloskey
It's baseball, right? It's sort of baseball with the different. With a different kind of stick. That's where I'm. That's my starting point.
- [19:19]
Gordon Carrera
Because cricket could go on for like five days and end in a draw, which is, you know. Anyway, that's. We'll. We'll come to cricket. Let's not get too diverted. So Kim Philby's father, he comes back, back and forth, but he's, you know, the dad spends Most of the 1920s living in the Middle East. I mean, most of the rest of his life really living in the Middle east, sometimes with and sometimes without Kim's mother. He quits his government job and becomes an explorer in the 20s. So he's going to travel by camel across the Empty Quarter of the Arabian Peninsula, which had never been properly explored before. I've never been across. I don't know if you have, David, in your time, but.
- [19:56]
David McCloskey
No, but essentially it's a mass of just absolutely barrenness, uninhabited for the most part. Desert across vast swaths of Saudi Arabia is what the Empty Quarter is.
- [20:10]
Gordon Carrera
And his father is going to kind of cross it, starts to wear Arab dress, risking his life, as I said, a kind of advocate for the Arab cause, which makes him critical of the British government, who he kind of rubs up the wrong way. And he's going to become a semi celebrity in his own right, which in some ways he's not thrown out of the British establishment because he's famous and he's an explorer, but he's seen as a bit of a kind of roguish character and he's dreaming of becoming rich, successful, also of the government, listening to his advice on the Arab world because he sees himself as the expert. So he's got this. I think he's got this sense of destiny for himself, which will then extend to his son. So the relationship between the father and son is fascinating because young Kim also develops this really bad stammer he really struggles to get his words out.
- [20:58]
David McCloskey
But.
- [21:00]
Gordon Carrera
And some, a lot of people say it's the absence of his parents or the shadow of this flamboyant father which, which causes that. Now, of course, it's quite hard to diagnose.
- [21:11]
David McCloskey
It reminds me a little bit of, I mean, Edward Lee Howard had the, the, the father who was borderline, maybe not even borderline, but abusive on occasion and had, you know, issues with like bedwetting and things like that. So I wonder if, you know, talking about the stammer, it seems there's sort of the similar, I guess, feature of this father that in some ways is absentee and in other ways is very domineering.
- [21:40]
Gordon Carrera
Kim Philby himself will say, well, my dad, you know, didn't influence anything I did because he was thousands of miles away. But actually you can sense this slight, whether there's a bit of inferiority against this adventurous big father, but also the father gives him a sense of rebelliousness, of kind of non conformism. I mean, Kim Philby will later say one of the things his father impressed on him was that if you feel strongly, strongly enough about anything, you've got to have the guts to go ahead and do it. And you know, as we'll see, that's something which the son does and which the father does. So there's definitely an influence there.
- [22:13]
David McCloskey
I mean, that quote we read up front was indicative that he's this kind of. Even as a child and maybe his father lived this out, kind of a defector in place. You know, in a way he's English, but not quite, and sort of looks at it looks at the whole system with a kind of private scorn.
- [22:33]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah. In it, but not of it. I think there's a bit of one upmanship perhaps with his father as well. But, you know, another thing, I think the father is definitely trying to make the son into a more successful version of himself or at least have him follow in his footsteps. Because in 1924, young Kim Philby goes to Westminster School as a boarder, just as his father had done. So he's following in his father's footsteps and he's gonna push his son on the same path, kind of molding him in some ways.
- [23:01]
David McCloskey
Our producer Becky has noted Westminster School, Gordon, alma mater of Louis Theroux, Nick Clegg, Helena Bonham Carter and Andrew Lloyd Webber. So a distinguished cast of characters amongst others.
- [23:13]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [23:14]
David McCloskey
Where does Westminster fit in, in sort of the landscape of posh. You know, I think in the States we would call them private schools, but Confusingly, on your fair island, you call them public schools, is that right?
- [23:27]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, yeah. And Westminster, which is. It's right as the name suggests, in Westminster in the middle of London, attached to kind of next to Westminster Abbey. It's not as particularly at this time in the kind of twenties, not as sporty or as posh as kind of Eaton or Harrow. Not quite like them. And there's a bit more space, I guess, for eccentricity and individuality than some of the others. I love the fact that when he eventually, I don't want to give too much away, but when he eventually flees Kim Philby, he leaves his wife behind, but he takes with him his Westminster scarf, which suggests a kind of a bizarre attachment to his school. But the best insight, I think from, from, from the. About the early Kim comes from Tim Milne, who we read. You read from at the top. Milne was this school friend of Philby, his. He wrote a memoir about, called Kim Philby which actually was blocked by MI6 from being published for many, many years and was only released actually in the last, I think five, 10 years. You can now get hold of which because it's such a fascinating, fascinating insight into not just Kim Philby, but also into MI6 operations. And there's a quote from Milne. Westminster at this time, and particularly his college were not very typical of public school life and Kim himself was highly untypical even of Westminster. So Kim, you get, you know, Mill describes kind of Philby as, you know, a bit of a loner. He's got the barriers up, something untouchable about him, but also a kind of inner strength and self reliance that made others, you know, respect him. So I think, yeah, you get a bit of a sense of an early character who's quite unusual already then Milne.
- [25:12]
David McCloskey
Has this, has this story from his book where he and Kim go to a soccer match. You've written football, a football game.
- [25:23]
Gordon Carrera
They go Chelsea against Chelsea against Clapton Orient. Although for any football fans out there, Kim Philby is an Arsenal supporter.
- [25:32]
David McCloskey
What is the profile of an Arsenal supporter?
- [25:35]
Gordon Carrera
Well, I think our current prime minister, Kia Starmer is an Arsenal supporter. I know it's North London. North London, but it's. So I don't. I'm not going to profile Arsenal sporters because.
- [25:46]
David McCloskey
And Bin Laden.
- [25:47]
Gordon Carrera
A lot of people on the podcast.
- [25:48]
David McCloskey
Bin Laden was another Arsenal.
- [25:50]
Gordon Carrera
Bin Laden and Kim Po. So we're into the theme here.
- [25:53]
David McCloskey
Keir Starmer should maybe switch clubs. This is a bad. Yeah, this is a bad set of.
- [25:58]
Gordon Carrera
This is a bad, bad choice.
- [25:59]
David McCloskey
Bad company to choose that's right.
- [26:02]
Gordon Carrera
And now here comes the first cricket. Cricket reference. So Tim Mill and Kim Philby play cricket and there are various cricket positions and Milne notes. Kim Philby used to field on the offside. I wish I could report that his regular position there was third man, but I think he was more usually to be found at deep extra cover itself appropriate in its own way. So I should explain. Kim Philby later becomes known as the third man in the spy ring. But. And third man is a position in cricket. David Fielding. And I'll just let you know this, you will find the third man positioned behind the wicket keeper on the offside. The fielder is usually 45 degrees to the wicket around on the boundary. It covers a large area. Anything that goes through the slip and gully area. Got it?
- [26:51]
David McCloskey
Yeah. Is the offside also starboard? Is that the same?
- [26:56]
Gordon Carrera
And it's different from offside in football as well. Which we should. Soccer.
- [27:00]
David McCloskey
So that was a bad place to start. I'll say that was. I think we were in too deep there. Essentially you're hitting it with like you have this swatting thing, right? Looks like a spanking stick. And that's what they hit. The little. That's what they.
- [27:14]
Gordon Carrera
The red ball.
- [27:15]
David McCloskey
The little red ball.
- [27:16]
Gordon Carrera
The.
- [27:17]
David McCloskey
The quaffle. They hit the quaffle.
- [27:18]
Gordon Carrera
Let's maybe, let's maybe do a separate. I think we might have to do a separate episode in which we. In which we. We explain cricket to you. I might get the sports, the rest of sports people to do that.
- [27:28]
David McCloskey
What is the point of cricket?
- [27:29]
Gordon Carrera
Point of any sport. Any sports, like enjoy yourself.
- [27:32]
David McCloskey
Trying to. No, no, no, no, no. Not the spirit, not the spiritual point. I mean, are you hitting? What are you trying to achieve?
- [27:40]
Gordon Carrera
Are you trying to. You're trying to get more runs than the other team runs. When you run back and forth after you've hit it.
- [27:45]
David McCloskey
Okay. There's a, there's a different from home runs in baseball. You want runs too? Yeah. Yeah.
- [27:51]
Gordon Carrera
I think maybe we should possibly take a break there before we get too deep into cricket. Because having dealt with Westminster, having dealt with cricket, next will come to Cambridge, which is where the action really starts. This is pro linebacker TJ Watt and.
- [28:11]
David McCloskey
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- [28:31]
Gordon Carrera
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- [28:39]
David McCloskey
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- [28:42]
Gordon Carrera
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David McCloskey
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- [29:14]
Gordon Carrera
Now, David, people think that spycraft is just car chases and secret codes, but an awful lot of it is just idling around waiting for the action.
- [29:24]
David McCloskey
It's a bit like starting your own business. You think it's going to be as easy as creating and selling a product, but the reality is business owners spend far too long trying to get their CRM to fit a system not built for them.
- [29:36]
Gordon Carrera
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- [29:45]
David McCloskey
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- [30:00]
Gordon Carrera
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- [30:04]
David McCloskey
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- [30:11]
Gordon Carrera
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- [30:21]
David McCloskey
Well, welcome back. It is the Autumn, fall of 1929 and we are at Cambridge, Gordon, a wonderful institution that, unlike Oxford, has produced some of the greatest traders of the 20th century.
- [30:36]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, quite right. Autumn, fall 1929. Kim arrives at Trinity College, one of Cambridge's richest and largest, there to study history. Later switches to economics. First year seems a bit lonely. The stammer doesn't help much with socializing. He's not sporty particularly, but into cricket, but not massively. Doesn't drink much at this point. We'll come back to the drinking later. So he's in the elite if you like, but he doesn't quite fit. He's not one of the kind of posh boys from the really, you know, kind of aristocratic families. You get this sense he's got a bit of a thing for the underdog or the outsider. One of his first friends is a kind of working class miner who, who's come on A special scholarship. But the crucial thing is the context into which he arrives. Because Philby arrives at university at this time, a really intense domestic and international turmoil where everyone is thinking and talking about politics. So he arrives 1929, which of course, year of the Wall street crash, depression starts, unemployment on the rise in Britain as well as in the US and around the world. And that sense, that kind of capitalism, the capitalist system seems to be failing. And then politically hang on, it hung.
- [31:48]
David McCloskey
On for a while longer though, unfortunately.
- [31:50]
Gordon Carrera
Well, that's what he thinks. That's what it looks like at that moment. You could see that. And also you have a Labour government in the UK, but it's struggling. And in 1931 its leader, you know, sells out and joins with the Conservatives. So Labor, Labour is going to get crushed. So the hopes that also a kind of left wing democratic government can bring about change also seems to be undermined. And the Conservative elite doesn't look like it can kind of cope with this crisis. Meanwhile, you have got the communist five year plans in the Soviet Union. Look at that point, like they're doing okay. People haven't seen the bad side. And then I think the crucial bit though, and this is where we come to my kind of, you know, one of the reasons why I have a touch of sympathy, touch of sympathy with Kim is because again, it's the context. He can see these darker populist forces on the rise across Europe with the arrival of fascism. And I think that is crucial to understanding why he does what he does.
- [32:49]
David McCloskey
He's very well traveled throughout Europe in the 1930s. I mean, I guess with his, his buddy Tim Milne alone, he makes three trips between August of 1930 and the spring of 1933. Goes to France, he goes to Austria, Hungary, Germany, Belgium, back to France. I mean, he's getting an experience that perhaps not many of his Cambridge classmates are getting in the same time period, kind of seeing what's going on around the continent, as you do have this kind of rise of fascism and populist movements around Europe.
- [33:26]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think he's going to see the arrival of kind of fascism, populism, the darkening clouds over Europe up close. In 1932, he plans to go to the Balkans, but then first goes to Germany. And that trip leaves a deep impression in Munich on the eve of an election. And he actually attends a massive Nazi torchlight rally at which Hitler speaks. You know, Milne writes, what impressed and alarmed us was the totally uncritical attitude of so many perfectly ordinary German men. And Women. A day or two later we sat in a workers cafe listening to the ominous election results on the radio. Nazi gains everywhere. We felt we'd seen into the future. It's an interesting quote, isn't it? They feel like there they're seeing the rise of fascism in Europe.
- [34:13]
David McCloskey
Well, and I guess, you know, in 33 then in January, Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany. And you know, Kim, I mean he seems, you know, obviously he's, he's horrified by, by Hitler and the rise of the Nazis, but he's also, I mean, I guess deeply interested in kind of understanding it and observing it, isn't he? Because going to Berlin, I think in March of 1933, sees this huge torchlight street parade in celebration of the reopening of the Reichstag. He watches it from a balcony. So he's kind of seeing, he's seeing fascism up close, which I think is gonna send him down the opposite path.
- [34:55]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, and I think that is one of the ways of seeing his choice is that it is, he sees it as a choice between fascism on the one hand and communism on the other. Because I think he sees that the kind of democratic socialist route to oppose fascism isn't going to work. And so he's fundamentally in some ways, I think, an anti fascist as much as a communist.
- [35:18]
David McCloskey
Reminds me a little bit of the story of Klaus Fuchs, yet another, yet another British traitor who was dispatched kind of British to America after incompetence on the part of your secret services and then poisoned ours. But that's, that's neither here nor there. But Klaus Fuchs had seen similar, you know, he, he had grown up in Germany, had seen these, you know, dynamics playing out in the 1920s and 1930s. And in many ways, you know, Klaus Fuchs work with the, the KGB was driven by his anti fascism, exactly as you're saying, you know, sort of Kilby's, Philby's experiencing here in the 1930s as well.
- [35:59]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, I think that's right. And so I think these trips to Europe are pretty formative for him. Interesting enough in one one of his trips, Milne remembers that while he's in Germany, Kim gets a letter from home saying that his father, St. John had turned Muslim, as Milne writes, which I think means converted to Islam. Which is, you know, which is part, you know, just to keep the father's story going in the background. In 1930 he's going to kind of convert and Ibn Saudi is going to organize for, you know, the father to visit Mecca.
- [36:25]
David McCloskey
He actually converts.
- [36:26]
Gordon Carrera
He converts to Islam. Yeah, he actually converts, although there is this suggestion that he actually partly converts because he's trying to get business deals and he thinks it will be easier to get the business deals if he's converted. So, yeah, I mean, so that, you know, the father is still on his journey, I think it's fair to say. But Philby, you know, he's done these European trips and it's only when he's at Cambridge in this 1929-1933 period, he does join the socialist society which a lot of people are members of. You know, it's the kind of just the left wing society. But it's only right at the end of his time at University in 1933 that he converts from, if you like, socialism, democratic socialism, to full on Marxist communism. And he definitely, it's really interesting because he comes under the influence of some left wing academics.
- [37:13]
David McCloskey
It's just a classic story of going to college, Gordon, and being radicalized by your, your professors. Right. I mean, who hasn't been there? Right.
- [37:22]
Gordon Carrera
One economics lecturer is called Maurice Dob, who is a socialist turned communist. And it's really interesting. You get this one figure, you know, Dob, who, who brings in left wing speakers into the university. He runs small discussion groups with the students and he basically clearly sees it as his mission to effectively evangelize this young generation of students and draw them towards communism. I mean, that's what he's doing.
- [37:46]
David McCloskey
I guess it does beg the question of how the British security services are looking at this dynamic because I would imagine most of the focus is on Nazi Germany and whether the Nazis have, you know, agents in place in the uk, but there has to be some interest in, you know, sort of, I don't know if it's in academia or more broadly throughout, you know, sort of, you know, the society, but there's got to be some interest in this kind of potential for communist influence as well. I mean. Yeah, is that going on at this point? Is MI5 looking at this?
- [38:24]
Gordon Carrera
So MI5 and Special Branch have, have. They're not very big at this time and it looks like most of their interest is in potential communist infiltration of things like the army or things like that, something like the university they're less focused on, but they are. There's some signs they're aware of some activity around dob and they've got a little bit of an interest in it, but definitely not much because DOB is basically acting as a kind of recruiter. I mean, we think of, you know, the tap on the shoulder famously by, you know, tutors to join MI6. But DOB is doing the kind of tap on the shoulder as a recruiter to become communist. So it's just in that last summer of 1933, when he's leaving Cambridge that Philby says later. You know, there's one evening he's sitting alone in his room in his armchair, and he just makes this kind of intellectual decision that he is a Marxist, that he's a Communist. He was in, he'd never be out. And I think it is a kind of intellectual conversion by him. It's not just a kind of emotional thing. He thinks, I believe this. I believe this interpretation of history and view of the direction of history to be true.
- [39:31]
David McCloskey
And he really is a true believer, isn't he? The decision is informed and influenced by the family upbringing, the class system, friends around him, you know, university professors. But at the end of the day, he is a deeply ideological recruit or will become exactly, you know, a recruit. Like, he's a deeply ideological person.
- [39:55]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
- [39:58]
David McCloskey
In June of 1933, he's finished Cambridge and he goes, I guess, back to the continent, straight to Vienna, I guess he wants to be kind of in the thick of it, I guess you could say.
- [40:10]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, it's really interesting that his first thought is, I want to do something. And he wants to go back to Austria. Austria at that point is really interesting because there's a huge amount of tension in Vienna, specifically the Austrian capital, between city, which is pretty left wing and has kind of big workers movement, and the government and the rest of the country, which is pretty right wing. And so the tension is growing. At that time. There's private militias and armies on both sides. And Philby, I think, feels like this is where the action is, this is where things are happening. So he turns to Maurice Dobb, this professor, who's pleased that he's converted. Dobb says, you know, I've been watching you. And he says, I've got some contacts for you out in Austria. I can put you in touch with some groups which do help left wing. And he puts him in touch with one in Paris, which puts him in touch with another one in Vienna. Interesting enough, he tells his parents he's going out to Austria to learn German so he can get into the Foreign Office, which is what his dad wants for him. But that is not what, you know, he wants to go out there, he wants cover.
- [41:13]
David McCloskey
He needs some cover with his parents.
- [41:14]
Gordon Carrera
He's really getting cover. But what I think is so interesting is he's not. He's intellectually converted to communism, but he also wants to do stuff. He's not a kind of someone who wants to sit and write essays. He actually wants to get in the. The thick of it by going to Austria again. You have to have some respect for this, David. But Philby arrives and he's looking for somewhere to stay.
- [41:37]
David McCloskey
Given the address, sympathy, Gordon, might be evidence of the societal masochism that you were discussing earlier with just this. Yeah, this constant sort of need to kind of relive this trauma.
- [41:51]
Gordon Carrera
The pain, the pain of betrayal.
- [41:53]
David McCloskey
Of betrayal by then. And the way you're living it out is with, you know, sort of flashing some leg of sympathy for Kim Phil throughout our series. Well, let's see, let's.
- [42:04]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, I still got it. I've still got the sympathy at this point. Cause he arrives and what, what, what happens now is a kind of key part of the story. Because he's a young man, what happens? He falls in love. And this is, David, a love story. This story of Kim Philby. You might think it's a story of betrayal and class, but no, it is a love story because he meets Litzy, the daughter of the family he's staying with. She is 23, so she's two years older than him, already divorced, dark brown hair, blue eyes, full on communist. Also knew how to enjoy life sexually liberated and in Soviet intelligence. Well, put it this way, within 10 days they're having an affair. And the suggestion is this is Kim Philby's first sexual experience. Tim Milne and others think he's not had a girlfriend, didn't have one at Cambridge or anything else. And I do like this, that this is Philby's own recollection is the first time they make love is in the snow, which was actually quite warm once you got used to it, he later recalled.
- [43:13]
David McCloskey
I mean, I can't believe that I am listening to. This is so. This is very uncorreran of you, Gordon, to be leaving these kind of personal details into a character study on the rest of classes.
- [43:27]
Gordon Carrera
Partly because who makes love in the snow? I mean, well, maybe. I mean, I don't know, maybe write it, listeners, if that. No, don't.
- [43:33]
David McCloskey
Don't write in. Right in. Yes. And I plead. We're not that kind of fifth on this one, Gordon. I plead the fifth. I refuse to share. He's infatuated.
- [43:41]
Gordon Carrera
He's infatuated. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And I love this, you know, on their first meeting, she says, how much money do you have? And he says he's got 100 questions.
- [43:50]
David McCloskey
He starts, start right there. That's a good first question.
- [43:52]
Gordon Carrera
Well, it's a communist question, is that if you're going to be a revolutionary, it's like, what, what money do you bring to the cause? And he says, well, I've got £100 which has been given to him by his dad, which I think it's like money from one of his, you know, his dad's got some money from a book he sold and she, she basically works out how much he can live on and says, right, I'm taking a quarter of that money and I'm going to give it to the cause of the revolution. You can keep the rest to live on. And, you know, that's it. So they, they fall for each other. They, you know, move into a flat together. The crucial thing, he's got a British passport which gives him the chance to move around the city in the way she and other communists can't. Because the British passport, I think really opened doors at that time.
- [44:29]
David McCloskey
I did, did, did I? I don't know what's gotten into me, Gordon. I'm just, I think it's the subject, I think it's, I think it's the subject of this, this yet another traitor that you sort of have fed into the bloodstream of American intelligence. That's, yeah, you really all riled up against.
- [44:46]
Gordon Carrera
Antibodies are up.
- [44:47]
David McCloskey
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But Litzy is she in touch with. So obviously she is a full on raging communist. But is she in touch with Soviet intelligence officers at this time or is that.
- [45:00]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, so, yeah, it, it looks like. So she's part of a kind of circle of activists, you know, who are also, some of them are Soviet agents. So she's moving in those kind of circles basically. And, and, and that draws Kim Philby into it. At this point, at this point he's still basically a kind of courier. He's moving money and people around. Then the most dramatic thing happens. On February 12, 1934, all the lights go out in their apartment in the whole block. Vienna erupts in violence because the government is cracking down on the workers. It's sending in the troops. Basically. There's a very short but very intense burst of violence because the leftists have no weapons. I mean, Philby and his group are told to go set up the machine gun they've got. They go around looking for it and they can't find it because it doesn't exist. And so, you know, they almost can't fight back. And they're just trying to survive because the government brings in artillery. I mean it brings in heavy artillery and shelves the apartment blocks where the workers are based and hiding. And I think a thousand people are killed. So it's a, it's a pretty dramatic crackdown which pushes all these leftists into hiding. And this is where I think Philby comes alive to some extent because he gets really involved. You know, he rushes to see one of his friends who's the Daily Telegraph correspondent in Vienna, grabs three of his suits and he's going to take those down to people who are hiding in the sewers so they can change out of their kind of private militia uniforms and into these suits. He's going to be dodging bullets. You know, he's helping support the underground. He's moving people, using his British passport to kind of get them out to safety, helping the wounded who are being treated, you know, again in hiding places and underground from the violence. He's doing some pretty heroic and brave things in those days and just this brief period before the left is kind of completely crushed. And then another interesting thing I think is that Litzy and her friends are all in danger because they, you know, they're known left wing activists so they're being hunted by the police. And on February 24, so 12 days after the uprising, he marries Lizzie, marries this young woman. This is actually going to kind of come back in the story in interesting ways. The fact that they're married. He will tell people it's purely so she has the protection of a British passport, but everyone else is convinced that actually he's in love with her. We're going to see there are a lot of women in the Philby story, but I actually think Litzy is the one he really loved.
- [47:40]
David McCloskey
And then I guess with a new bride in April of 1934, which I mean, I guess is less than a year, he'd been in Vienna less than a year. The two of them go back to England and he's had this searing experience of seeing the results of fascist violence up close.
- [48:02]
Gordon Carrera
He's now back in, you know, the safety of suburban England. His mother and father, perhaps unsurprisingly, are not keen on Litzy. She's Hungarian, she's part Jewish, she's got a strong personality, she's a leftist. Philby and her are going to move into a kind of one room flat. He's looking for work. He was thinking about joining the civil service. Not sure he'll get in. She's still moving in left wing circles and it's at this point that he is approached by Soviet intelligence. And you know, it's worth us really drilling down into how this happens because there's a talent spotter and it's not Litzy, but it's another kind of Austrian emigre young woman in this case called Edith tudorhart. Now she's called Tudor Hart because even though she's Austrian originally, she's married an English doctor called Alexander tudorhart who'd also, like Philby, gone out to Austria to kind of help and move in left wing circles. And also again, like Philby and Litzy, you know, she'd then come back, you know, with Alexander tudorhart to Britain. And she'd been under occasional surveillance actually. So MI5 and the police had been aware of her because she'd attended, you know, workers rally in Trafalgar Square at one point and they'd suspected she might be working with Russian intelligence, Edith tudorhart. But even though they're kind of aware of her and actually at this point in 1934 looking for her, they don't know where she lives and there's no surveillance on her, which is crucial because she is the one who is going to be the kind of intermediary, the talent spotter to put Philby in touch with Soviet intelligence.
- [49:40]
David McCloskey
Well, and I guess crucially, the day that she kind of takes Kim out on a walk in part to recruit him, there's no surveillance that day on her by MI5 or the special Branch. So there's, there's no evidence, I guess, of his, of his direct contact with, with either Edith tudorhard or his recruitment.
- [50:05]
Gordon Carrera
Which, because history would have been very different if there had been that. Yeah, so she says, let's go for a walk. Taxi, then a tube, then, then the bus. They get on and off as the doors are shutting, see if anyone else is still on the platform.
- [50:19]
David McCloskey
Surveillance detection route.
- [50:21]
Gordon Carrera
2 hour surveillance detection route. She's trained, you know, she knows what she's doing and eventually takes him to Regent's Park. They head for a bench. He sits down. Philby sits down on the bench next to a man. And at that point Edith just walks away. So she leaves them. It is worth painting a picture of the man he's introduced to because his name is his real name. Although Phil, we won't learn that for a while, is Arnold Deutsch. And I think he's got claim to be possibly one of the greatest recruiters of agents in spy history. You know, I think he is that important. Five foot seven, curly brown hair, blue eyes, he's An Austrian.
- [51:01]
David McCloskey
So again, yeah, there's no Russians in the story. You know, it's really funny. The recruitment to work for Soviet intelligence is effectively done by Austrians. In the case of Kim Philby.
- [51:14]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, but it is interesting, isn't it? Because at that time Soviet intelligence, I guess could draw on international communists from all across Europe who were allied to the communist cause and who were willing to work for it. And they were kind of very useful, I think, for Moscow and it allows them to move around Europe. And he, he's also so interesting because, you know, he's a proper intellectual, brilliant at languages, he's already got a PhD, he's been a university lecturer. He'd worked on something called the sex poll movement. David, aware of what that is?
- [51:50]
David McCloskey
Yeah, I, I did my master's thesis of the Sex Paul movement. So this is. Arnold Deutsch and I have, have much and much in common. Now, Gordon, please will you explain to me what the Sex Paul movement is?
- [52:03]
Gordon Carrera
The sex poll movement, it turns out, was a kind of something to do with the relationship between psychology, sex and politics, which linked the sexual repression to fascism. So the idea was if you were very sexually repressed, you'd end up a fascist with the corollary that if you were sexually liberated and then, you know, communism was the, was. Was the answer. So there was kind of, I, I don't know, something about free love and communism. I think that that's as far as I got with Sexpole. I didn't want to dive too deep in with the web searches into Sexpole I thought might take me to a strange place.
- [52:39]
David McCloskey
Well, if you'd had your, if you'd had your NORDVPN on, Gordon, you would, you would have been, you would have been just fine. So you need to flip, flip that on. And all of a sudden that traffic's coming from, from North Macedonia and not, and not your, not your flat, but so Deutsche at first, I guess he was kind of a courier, obviously become a spy for these international communist networks. And he's, he's arrived in London and he's living just south of Hampstead Heath at the Lawn Road flats, which Gordon, you've noted are quite famous. But this American has no idea why.
- [53:19]
Gordon Carrera
No, they were quite famous in the 30s. I think it was kind of left wing enclave, although weirdly he lived next to a flat owned by, I'm not sure if it was inhabited by Agatha Christie. So it was a kind of quite upmarket left wing intellectuals, writers world. And he's got cover actually, as an academic. He's ostensibly researching psychology at University College London, ucl. And I think the thing about him, he's really kind of cosmopolitan. He's erudite, he's an intellectual. You know, it's perfect to appeal to someone like Philby, you know, a young man who has made this intellectual conversion to Communism. You know, it's just the right person for the right target. And they speak mainly in German, actually, at this kind of. On this bench. And Philby's, you know, he's so impressed by him, his background, his. His knowledge of Europe. You know, they discuss what's happening in European politics, the rise of fascism, Marx, what Philby are doing in Austria. And it immediately feels to Philby more like a friendship. I mean, he says he was a marvellous man, simply marvellous. I felt that immediately. And it never left, you know, lever never left me.
- [54:28]
David McCloskey
Well, and I guess part of the pitch that Deutch makes is to say, you know, you're. You're capable of more than just joining the party, signing up, handing out leaflets. And it must have been flattering to Philby to be noticed, A, and then B, to be asked to work in secret for the. For the Communist cause. I mean, that's quite a. You know, obviously it's very risky, but in some. In some ways it's a very flattering. A very flattering pitch.
- [54:57]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, it's exciting. If you believed in Communism and suddenly someone is saying you can do something, you're not. You know, you're better than just being some normal activist. You can. You can work secretly for us. And it's interesting, he talks about the international Communist cause or the Comintern, which is the Communist International, rather than specifically Soviet intelligence. So, you know, Deutsch is not saying you're going to be working for Moscow or you're going to be working for the Soviet Union. It's. You're working for international Communism and the cause. Now, I think Philby would have, you know, been smart enough to realize that means also working for Moscow, but there is a kind of ambiguity about it. You'd think so.
- [55:38]
David McCloskey
Do you think so? Because I wonder if this is yet another Austrian Communist who is, you know, been put in touch with Philby through another contact. I just. I wonder.
- [55:55]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, given.
- [55:55]
David McCloskey
Given that Philby has no experience with Russian intelligence, with Soviet intelligence at this point at all, does he realize. Yeah. Does. Does he realize who Deutsch actually is?
- [56:07]
Gordon Carrera
Yes. I mean, he. It's definitely not spelt out. The Deutsch works for what's called. Then we should say the nkvd, but which we now know is the kind of KGB that's later, you know, changes its name. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's true. I mean, Philby may have not quite realized that. But I love this, you know, this line that Deutsch gives them, gives him, he says, you are a bourgeois by education, appearance and origin. You could have a bourgeois career in front of you. And we need people who could penetrate into the bourgeois institutions, penetrate them for us. And it's such a great kind of speech to appeal to a kind of young lefty, isn't it? And also it goes to Deutsch's. I mean, this is why I think Deutsch is one of the great spy recruiters in history, because he's, I think partly him. You know, it's not just come instructions from the center, come up with this strategy, which is to cultivate fresh young idealists straight out of university and then send them into the British establishment. And of course this is kind of different, isn't it, from what we think of normally as spying, where you're recruiting someone who already has access to secrets. You know, you recruit someone who is in a position where they have, you know, they work in the Foreign Ministry or in part of the secret services and you're trying to recruit them. This is a kind of different strategy, which is a kind of long term seeding strategy to find young idealists and then tell them to be penetration agents to get into the British establishment in the elite. I mean, it's brilliant in a way, isn't it?
- [57:43]
David McCloskey
Deutsch does exceptional work in this effort. I mean the, the, I believe in the Matron archive, I mean, it noted that Deutsch personally recruited 20 assets like didn't, didn't just run or handle them, but actually recruited 20 people. Now, not all, not all of them became as well connected with such primo access as Philby. But that's a, that's a pretty astounding number. And does, to your point, suggest that Deutsch, you know, we, we've done these interviews on the, on the club with former CIA case officers. You know, they, they talk about being able to sort of understand and see the seams and cracks in people kind of get a handle on over time to understand what they want and then give it to them. And it suggests that Deutsch probably wouldn't have expressed it in that way, but was capable of doing exactly that with people like Philby.
- [58:39]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, and of course you can see why they see potential in Philby on their side Famous father, Cambridge education, committed communist and not yet a party member, which is quite useful. Philby had actually approached the Communist Party, but it'd been kind of initially rebuffed as they thought he was too posh. So he's not yet kind of associated with communism, which means he can work covertly. So you can see why they think Philby is an attractive young man who they could use to put into the system. I think this is where I have some kind of sympathy with Philby, not ultimately what he does or why, but you can see why, with the flattery with. With the experience he's had, why this is a kind of interesting offer to him at this point in 1934.
- [59:21]
David McCloskey
It also brings up the question which we're going to talk about in the next episode for sure, which is whether at this point, Philby has actually done anything wrong, really. I mean, because he's. He doesn't have access, you know, I mean, he's. He's basically fresh out of university, he's an ideological fellow traveler with international communism and as a result, the Soviet Union. But he is. He's young, he's in love, he's. He's adventuresome. I mean, at this point, he hasn't actually stolen any state secrets. Right, we should be clear on that. I mean, he's in contact with a Soviet intelligence officer, which I think also, by the way, Philby will come to think of himself as a Soviet intelligence officer, which I think is interesting. He won't see himself as necessarily an agent or asset, but as actually a Soviet intelligence officer. But he's not, you know, he hasn't committed espionage yet, I think you could argue.
- [60:20]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, and I mean, I think it's that idea that, you know, someone's offered him the chance to do something important, to do something consequential and also to penetrate the British elite, but also to be part of an even deeper secret society, you know, to have one up on. On everyone else, even inside that elite, by being, you know, a kind of communist, a secret communist within the elite. So you can see, I don't know, you know, whether it's. Whether it's. You can see the kind of attraction of that. And I mean, some people read it also as rebellion against the father, rebellion against the establishment. I mean, Edward Harrison, who wrote quite a good, you know, biography of the young Philby, he thinks the motive is to emulate his father. But go further, you know, his father's a bit of a lefty, so the son becomes a kind of even more of a lefty. The father was quite critical of Britain. The son, you know, goes to the next extreme. I also think there's a bit of Philby, which maybe just kind of enjoys the game and enjoys the kind of complexity and the deceit of it and having one up on others by having a secret life. I think there's a lot of layers to what's going on there, as well as the ideological commitment to Marxism. That's clearly part of it.
- [61:27]
David McCloskey
I think it's in the Ben McIntyre book on Philby, which is called A Spy among friends, where McIntyre makes the point that there's this kind of concept which is not specific to Philby, but of an inner ring and humans by nature want to be inside the inner ring so that they have secrets and information that other people do not. We naturally want to understand what's going on behind closed doors. And to the point on Philby, you know, the idea that he's got this secret, that he has information that nobody around him has about his true loyalties, who he's working for, that is actually. It's a bit counterintuitive, but that's a very powerful motivating force and a way for him, I think, to feel superior to the people around him without actually needing to make more money or have, you know, a better job or come from a better family. He can feel that just by virtue of his, you know, his relationship to Deutsch and the decision that he's made to become a committed communist. And I guess in some ways he's kind of. He's kind of. He's kind of trapped at this point, isn't he?
- [62:44]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, I think that's what's so interesting. Is he. So he effectively says, yes, although Deutsch says, you know, to confirm everything, we'll meet again in two weeks. When Deutsch says, I can tell you whether you've been accepted. But yeah, you're right, I think he makes that decision as a very young man at 22, and that sets him out on a path from which, effectively, there's no turning back. I mean, there is a way in which I think Philby is trapped by his youthful decisions, and particularly this one decision when, as I said, he's very young, he's 22 or so, and that will define. Define his life. What happens that one conversation on the park bench in Regent's Park.
- [63:21]
David McCloskey
Well, Gordon there, with Philby having made this incredible decision. Let's end when we come back next time, we'll see how his journey takes him to the bloody battlefields of the Spanish Civil War and eventually into the heart of the British Secret Service.
- [63:42]
Gordon Carrera
But don't forget, if you want to hear that now, you don't have to wait. And you can hear all of this four part series on Philby, as well as some extra interviews we've got with an expert on the Cambridge spies. And also an amazing tape really of Kim Philby talking about what happened to him, which we'll have for club members. And if you want to get all of that, plus lots of other great things, then go to thereestisclassified.com, join the declassified Club. But otherwise we'll see you next time.
- [64:17]
David McCloskey
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