125. Al Qaeda’s Deadliest Plot: How MI5 Stopped Another 9/11 (Ep 1)

Summary

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The Rest Is Classified

Episode 125: Al Qaeda’s Deadliest Plot: How MI5 Stopped Another 9/11 (Ep 1)
Hosts: David McCloskey & Gordon Corera
Release Date: February 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this gripping series opener, David McCloskey and Gordon Corera uncover the inside story of MI5’s race to prevent a devastating al Qaeda plot: an attempt to blow up transatlantic airliners using homemade “liquid bombs.” This is the attack that led to global restrictions on carrying liquids on planes. Through newly-revealed details and interviews (including with former MI5 chief Jonathan Evans), the hosts walk listeners through the high-stakes surveillance operation—from mysterious luggage at Heathrow to shady activity in East London flats. This episode focuses on how the plot came to MI5's attention and the extraordinary surveillance and covert entry techniques used to piece it all together.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The "Liquid Bomb Plot"—Context and Stakes

• The episode introduces the plot as one “that could have been worse than the 9/11 attacks, killing thousands” ([00:55], McCloskey).
• Originated from a flat in East London, the conspiracy planned to blow up multiple airliners bound for North America using explosives disguised as everyday liquids.
• Its aftermath explains current airport liquid restrictions. “If you’re wondering why you can’t take liquids on planes... this story is exactly the reason for that” ([02:00], McCloskey).

Quote

• “It is about what was assessed by Britain's security service, MI5 as the most dangerous terrorist conspiracy in British history.” ([02:31], Correra)

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2. MI5 vs CIA—The ‘Special Relationship’ Under Pressure

• The case is described as a study in both cooperation and tension between UK and US intelligence agencies.
• They describe “incredible detail... some of the tension amid the cooperation between MI5 and the CIA in particular” ([03:28], McCloskey).

Notable Exchange

• Corera characterizes the fallout with the Americans: “...it really pisses off, to use a British phrase, the Brits in this case.” ([04:30], Correra)
• McCloskey counters: “...it also shows the value of the liaison relationship at the same time... the sum of the parts adds up to a lot more than the individual pieces...” ([04:52], McCloskey)

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3. How MI5 Got on the Trail

Abdullah Ahmed Ali’s Suspicious Luggage

• The investigation begins at Heathrow (June 24, 2006) when Ali’s luggage from Pakistan is covertly searched by MI5—revealing batteries and powdered drink mix (Tang), both odd but not immediately alarming ([07:58]–[09:09]).
• “So it's a bit of a mystery as to why these things are in the luggage, but it's going to kick start an investigation which in just six weeks is going to go up to the top reaches of MI5, the White House, Downing street and Islamabad.” ([09:09], Correra)

Ali’s Profile and Radicalization

• British-born, with ties to Pakistan. He grows increasingly religious and political post-9/11, eventually coming on MI5’s radar for potentially funding extremist groups ([09:21]–[12:24]).

Quote

• “By about 2005, Ali is on MI5's radar for sending money to extremists... But it's not clear how dangerous he is, but it is suggestive, I guess, and enough for them to start a surveillance operation.” ([14:08], Correra)

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4. Surveillance and Tradecraft

Following Lion Roar and His Network

• Ali receives the codename “Lion Roar” (“a really positive codename for a guy who’s being investigated”–[14:57], McCloskey).
• MI5 deploys its “A4” surveillance teams—diverse watchers who blend seamlessly: “young, old, every ethnicity... follow someone on the streets without being noticed.” ([16:14], Correra)
• The team observes odd shopping trips for electronics, attempts to get loans, and meticulous attention to bottles and caps in supermarkets ([17:34]–[19:31]).

Surveillance Evasion and Odd Behavior

• Ali and associates exhibit amateur counter-surveillance: “He’s kind of surveillance... aware or conscious. So they see him doing stuff like look around, turning suddenly, you know, trying to watch over his shoulder using mirrors...” ([16:54], Correra)
• At one point, Ali meets compatriot Asad Sawah in a local park, lying on the grass facing each other with hands over their mouths to avoid lip-reading ([19:51]–[20:55]).

Quote

• “If you Arrangement would be bizarre.” ([20:40], McCloskey)
• “Which attracts surveillance... So it's kind of... I don't know. I find it really interesting, a way of acting.” ([20:55], Correra)

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5. Warning Signs—Purchases and Behavior

• Sawah (codenamed “Rich Food”), returning from Pakistan, buys small amounts of hydrogen peroxide—the ingredient in 7/7’s bombs—attempting to hide them with amateurish efforts, even googling ‘how to dig a hole’ ([21:26]–[22:36]).
• “He Googled that.” ([22:33], McCloskey)
• The group accumulates odd materials: syringes, drills, latex gloves, along with making attempts to secure a run-down flat for clandestine use ([23:45]–[24:28]).

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6. Establishing “The Lab”—The Forest Road Flat

• July 20: Ali gets keys to a maisonette at 386A Forest Road, their would-be workshop for bomb assembly ([23:45]–[24:28]).
• He visits a “spy store” to buy intruder detection cameras—unusual at the time, highlighting his security concerns ([24:28]–[25:10]).

Quote

• “Back then you had to go to something called the spy store. Now we're all just letting everybody and their mother spy on us willingly by ourselves.” ([24:46]–[24:50], McCloskey)

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7. Covert Entry—MI5’s Secret ‘Lawful Burglars’

Planning the Break-In

• MI5 deems it essential to get inside the flat, but launching a “covert entry” (not ‘breaking and entering’, as former MI5 chief Evans insists) requires careful planning: establish patterns, ensure nobody returns mid-op, and avoid detection by neighbors ([27:08]–[29:30]).

Teamwork and Skills

• The entry crew must include: locksmiths, technical installers (for bugs/cameras), and bomb disposal experts—all legally authorized to “do a bit of light breaking and entering” ([28:44], McCloskey).
• The process is likened to a high-stakes puzzle, with McCloskey referencing the CIA’s equivalent team as “essentially like choir boys... you cannot have a criminal record and do this kind of work.” ([30:09], McCloskey).

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8. Behind the Scenes—Locks, Bugs, and Burglar Tricks

• A well-known saying: “You don’t pick a lock, you make a key” ([32:48], McCloskey)—the aim is persistent, undetected access to suspect properties.
• The team must also avoid leaving forensic or visual clues they were ever there. They often photograph or video the site on entry to replace everything exactly ([42:25]–[42:47]).
• The covert entry yields the installation of audio (and, after several attempts, video) surveillance devices in the Forest Road flat ([41:26]–[43:34]).

Quote

• “[When] they see the gloopy stuff, ‘why don’t you touch it?’... Cut the blue wire. It’s like it’s a bomb... at one point you hear one of them say on the video, ‘I effing love my job.’” ([38:49]–[38:54], Correra)

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9. Breakthrough—Surveillance Brings Clarity

• With audio/video coverage, MI5 can finally discern the plotters’ real activities and intentions inside the flat; this critical intelligence will ultimately allow them to avert the mass-casualty plot ([43:34], McCloskey).
• Episode ends in suspense: “They’re gonna see something very strange. Very strange and very disturbing.” ([43:34]–[43:39])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 02:31 | "It is about what was assessed by Britain's security service, MI5 as the most dangerous terrorist conspiracy in British history." | Gordon Correra | | 04:30 | "It really pisses off, to use a British phrase, the Brits in this case." | Gordon Correra | | 14:57 | "They give him a code name. Yeah. Lion Roar." | Gordon Correra | | 20:40 | "If you Arrangement would be bizarre." | David McCloskey | | 22:33 | "He Googled that." | David McCloskey | | 24:46 | "Back then you had to go to something called the spy store. Now we're all just letting everybody and their mother spy on us willingly by ourselves." | David McCloskey | | 28:44 | "I don't think they'd be offended if we called them lawful burglars, do you?" | Gordon Correra | | 30:09 | "You cannot have a criminal record and do this kind of work." | David McCloskey | | 32:48 | "You don't pick a lock, you make a key." | David McCloskey | | 38:54 | "I effing love my job." | Unnamed MI5 team member, quoted by Correra |

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• 00:55 – Introduction of the “liquid bomb” plot and its legacy.
• 02:31 – MI5’s assessment of the threat.
• 07:58 – Heathrow incident: MI5 searches Ali’s baggage.
• 14:57 – Ali’s surveillance operation and codename.
• 19:51 – Odd meeting in Lloyd Park, counter-surveillance tactics.
• 22:36 – Amateur bomb-ingredient stockpiling and “how to dig a hole.”
• 24:28 – Acquisition of the Forest Road flat and “spy store” visit.
• 27:08 – Deep dive: Planning and executing MI5’s covert entry.
• 38:49 – Covert team’s finds inside the flat, banter, and surveillance setup.
• 43:34 – Surveillance breakthrough: what MI5 finally sees and hears.
• 43:39 – Episode cliffhanger/set-up for part 2.

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Summary and Tone

This episode balances the seriousness of terrorism and national security with the dry humor and lived experience of two intelligence veterans, offering unique technical details and sharp personal anecdotes. The conversation is natural and insightful, delving into both the thrilling and mundane of spycraft. British and American linguistic and operational differences get friendly ribbing, real-life tradecraft is demystified, and listeners are left with a tense cliffhanger promising deeper revelations in episode two.

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For a full immersion—including interviews with Sir Jonathan Evans, internal MI5 banter, and further revelations on one of Britain's gravest terror plots—listeners are invited to subscribe or join the show’s Declassified Club.

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Transcript

[David McCloskey]

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter and discounted books. Join the declassified [e-mail] this podcast is.

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[David McCloskey]

A terrorist plot to blow up transatlantic airliners that could have been worse than the 911 attacks killing thousands. And the reason why, ever since you've not been able to take liquids on planes, it's all run out of a flat in East London and stopped by MI5. But not before a major row with the Americans and the CIA. Well, welcome to the Rest is Classified. I'm David McCloskey.

[Gordon Carrera]

And I'm Gordon Carrera.

[David McCloskey]

Did I say I pronounce Rao correctly? Right, yeah. Yes, that's a fight for our Yankee.

[Gordon Carrera]

Is that not an American point?

[David McCloskey]

Well, you know, we're recording this on the tail end of me having been in your fair country for the last couple weeks.

[Gordon Carrera]

Exactly.

[David McCloskey]

We're in person together. I fear I might be maybe going native with my correct pronunciation of Rao. We are starting a very interesting four part series on what I think is probably one of the most audacious to terrorist plots ever conceived. And this is a story that I think actually not many people are aware of because this is about an attack that didn't happen.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

This is a plan to simultaneously bring down multiple airliners flying between the UK and North America. And it happened 20 years ago, if you're wondering, as I was today when I was stopped on my flight to Heathrow coming from Dublin and forced to dump out contact solution that was in my carry on. And if you're wondering why you can't take liquids on planes ever since and you're forced to put those in your carry on bags, this story is exactly the reason for that.

[Gordon Carrera]

It is a really significant story. It is about what was assessed by Britain's security service, MI5 as the most dangerous terrorist conspiracy in British history. And it's a real insight as well into how MI5 works. Because MI5 got deep inside the conspiracy to prevent it. And through the series we're going to look, I think in really interesting detail at what an MI5 surveillance operation looks like. Not just how they watch people on the streets, but even how they get into people's houses without anyone seeing and plant bugs so that they can listen in. And it was a terrorist plot that followed on from the July 7, 2005 attacks with the same mastermind behind it in Pakistan, but this time using the UK as a launch pad for attacks on the US and stopping the plot does involve the Americans who nearly, David, wreck it for everyone, allegedly.

[David McCloskey]

We might have a debate about that, Gordon, and the role that the Americans played in this. I think it's also, I mean, this is a, I think, great case study and the mechanics of the intelligence piece of the special relationship because we really actually, in incredible detail see some of the tension amid the cooperation between MI5 and the CIA in particular. And frankly, I mean, it's such, it's such a big conspiracy, isn't it, Gordon? This, this potential attack. I mean, that at the time, then President Bush, Prime Minister Blair, I mean, they're in close touch about it constantly, right? I mean, this is like an oval office and 10 downing issue every day. But the CIA throw their weight around. Could you throw their weight around a little bit, you know, as a good intelligence service should do to support its own national objectives. But it's very upsetting.

[Gordon Carrera]

It does it really, isn't it? It really pisses off, to use a British phrase, the Brits in this case. And I think it shows how counterterrorism liaison really works and intelligence sharing, but also when you've got a bigger partner than the other, how they can throw their weight around. So I think that is a really interesting aspect of the story which comes to light from this.

[David McCloskey]

Well, but the flip side of that, we're talking about the tension and there's going to be a lot of it in the story between London and Washington. It also shows the value of the liaison relationship at the same time because I think this is going to principally be an MI5 investigation. But you do see, I think, in this story how both parties bring something to the table and frankly, I mean, how the sort of sum of the parts adds up to a lot more than the individual pieces right. In this relationship, especially given what's going on right now, Gordon, in the world. A great reminder, I think, of the value inside this relationship.

[Gordon Carrera]

Or the reality of it. Or the reality of it.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. Now a reminder that if you want to hear all four episodes right now, go ahead and join the declassified club@the restisclassified.com and Gordon, people who sign up will get something a little bit extra special, won't they?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, they will. Because to mark this series, we've actually been inside MI5, haven't we, David? We went into Tem's house.

[David McCloskey]

I was letting you know MI5.

[Gordon Carrera]

They let you in?

[David McCloskey]

They let me in.

[Gordon Carrera]

Which I was, you know, kind of slightly surprised at, given the state of the special relationship. But no, they let you in. And we were able to record inside MI5, which is pretty unusual, and speak to Jonathan Evans, who had a big role overseeing the busting of this plot. He was the number two at MI5 at the time. Later on becomes the head of MI5 and we spoke to him inside and were able to actually look at some of the artifacts, I guess MI5 have got marking this operation and so members will be able to hear that as part of two special bonus episodes that we've got. So with that, here's a word from our sponsors. Hp. This episode is sponsored by hp. Most people are not counterespionage experts, but that won't stop them getting targeted by cyber criminals seeking to extract their secrets.

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[David McCloskey]

So, Gordon, we are going to look at how MI5 got onto the plot. I mean, so I think it's actually worth starting at an airport. It's Heathrow Airport. It's 24 June 2006, and a passenger called Abdullah Ahmed Ali is disembarking on a flight from Pakistan to London.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right, Ali is getting off the flight. And what he doesn't know is that while he's waiting to get his passport checked and waiting to pick up his bags, a team from MI5 have secretly taken his luggage into a Special room at Heathrow. And there they are searching it before resealing it and then sending it back onto the carousel for him to pick up. He will have no idea that it's happened. Probably didn't happen to you on the way back from Duncan.

[David McCloskey]

I have no idea.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's the point.

[David McCloskey]

They left all of my Tang alone.

[Gordon Carrera]

Let's get to the Tang, because inside Ali's luggage, MI5 are going to find some very odd things. Batteries and drink powder. This thing called Tang, which we'll come to it, is not exactly dangerous stuff though, is it? I mean, you're allowed to have batteries and drink powder.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

So it's a bit of a mystery as to why these things are in the luggage, but it's going to kick start an investigation which in just six weeks is going to go up to the top reaches of MI5, the White House, Downing street and Islamabad.

[David McCloskey]

And so who is Abdullah Ahmad Ali?

[Gordon Carrera]

He's born in London, October 1980, to a middle class family with close links to Pakistan. Goes back and forth to Pakistan in early life before he settles in Walthamstow, which is in East London. Teenager in the 1990s, begins to get more religious than his family, but not really political or extremist. Does a degree in computing. But then after 9, 11 is when things start to change. There are charities which had helped Kashmiri refugees in Pakistan, which are now switching to help refugees fleeing the conflict in Afghanistan, where the Taliban was overthrown by the US and the UK and others. And around 2002, Ali gets involved with these charities, collecting money, clothing, blankets, milk, canned food for those refugees. Now he's becoming more involved as well in anti war movements, protesting also against the looming war in Iraq. By 2003, start 2003, the charity wanted people to travel to Pakistan to deliver aid and Ali is going to be one of those who volunteers. And so it is around this time that he first does come onto the radar of MI5, the security service. And the reason, it seems, is that he's suspected of fundraising for extremists in Pakistan. Now, he's not seen at this point as planning any attacks, so he's kind of on the periphery, not the kind of person you'd prioritize for an investigation. Back in London, though, he's articulate, charismatic, building a group of local friends mainly, but not all of kind of Pakistani and Kashmiri heritage. One is a guy who will come back to Asad Sawah. He's the only one who doesn't live in East London. He's based out of London, in High Wycombe, which is a fair bit out of town. So Aliyah and Asad Sawah are going to go out to Pakistan 2003, visit refugee camps. They drive an ambulance filled with aid to people living in terrible conditions. They're blaming the US and UK for this. Ali comes back, he gets married, slightly complicated relationship with his wife, so he's going back and forth back out again. 2004, and it's a time when it's worth saying lots of people are going out to Pakistan and most of them are people going to see family because of the family links. Small subset of those might be going out to get involved in kind of jihadist violence, and then an even smaller subset of that might be planning to do something back in the UK afterwards. And it's the job of MI5's G branch, or G1, specifically, which investigates these kind of Islamist networks to find out who are the ones who are actually dangerous. And so by about 2005, Ali is on MI5's radar for sending money to extremists. And they're kind of looking at some of those connections out in Pakistan and some of the people who he might be meeting, who they're worried about. So that's the kind of context of their worry. Which brings us to that search in 2006, you know of his luggage when he's on his way back. So the question you get inside MI5 is, is why is he bringing back 30 cheap Pakistani AA batteries?

[David McCloskey]

Well, I mean, maybe price arbitrage, if they're. Are they cheaper in Pakistan? And why the Tang?

[Gordon Carrera]

Because you can buy batteries here, so it's not like you need to import them. So it is a bit of a mystery why he's bringing back these specifically Pakistani batteries and then this thing called Tang, which I didn't know about, but it's you. It's like a powder and you add it to water to make an orange.

[David McCloskey]

Drink, do you not. Is it not here? Don't have it.

[Gordon Carrera]

I don't know. I've never. I've never come across Tang.

[David McCloskey]

So it was. I think the sort of. The myth was that it was actually developed for the US space program, which I believe is actually not true. I think it predates the space program by a bit, but it got popularized because it was. It was, you know, sort of provisioned to astronauts on spaceflight in, like, the 60s and 70s. And I think Buzz Aldrin, second man to walk on the moon, famously commented on Tang. He said, it sucks. He's not A fan of Tang.

[Gordon Carrera]

So, again, slightly odd thing to be bringing back from Pakistan.

[David McCloskey]

Buzz Aldrin doesn't like it. I don't know why, but Dull Ali is using it then.

[Gordon Carrera]

But I guess the point is that they are starting to worry, well, could this be something to do with bomb making? I mean, but it's not really not clear what these things could be used for. I guess the context here is important, isn't it? Because, you know, we're now in 2006 and it is that period after the 2005 bombings, you know, you had those two sets of bombings, one that succeeded and one that didn't in July 2005. I mean, and when we were in MI5 talking to Jonathan Evans, I mean, he was telling us a bit, wasn't he, about what it felt like at that time.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

You know, the intensity of it and.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, I mean, you could. You could tell just in the conversation with him that Jonathan can still kind of imagine himself in that position. I think it seemed like a very stressful time to run the Security Service or to be a senior sort of operational leader in it.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. Because I think it was just that feeling that something had happened, they hadn't been able to stop it. There were questions about should they have been able to stop it. You know, we looked at that in the series we did on 77 last year. But then, now that it's happened, they're just starting to see more and more people traveling, more plots, more leads are coming in. And there was that feeling, I think you get, and he talks about it, that things were running away from them for MI5 almost. There was almost a feeling like, is this too much? You know, can we cope with the volume? And so the question is, you've got to try and work out which. Which leads you follow and which ones are genuinely dangerous. And you come out of this search of Ali's luggage and it's not clear how dangerous he is, but it is suggestive, I guess, and enough for them to start a surveillance operation.

[David McCloskey]

And they give him a code name.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. Lion Roar.

[David McCloskey]

We discussed this, didn't we, with Jonathan Evans? Because I felt like, I think you agreed that this is a really positive codename to have for a guy who's being investigated at this point under suspicions of sort of at least funding, if not now, planning a terrorist operation. And Jonathan Evans insisted that the code names are generated randomly, but that there is some ability, if a particular codename is egregiously awful, to then go in and edit it. Right. But no one Edited Lion War.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Which I feel like they should have.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, I feel like they should have. I feel like gives them too much credit. So Lion Roar Alley is going to be put under surveillance. So MI5 start doing what. What's called mobile surveillance. And this is done by. We talked about G Branch being the counterterrorism branch. A branch is the technical branch and the surveillance branch. And so a 4 is the part of A branch who are what you might call the watchers, the kind of surveillance teams, people who can blend into any part of society and life. So they're young, old, every ethnicity, so that they can effectively follow someone on the streets without being noticed.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. And we should say that is definitely a sort of trait or theme, I think, of surveillance work in general is, as we'll see in the story, having many, many teams following, watching a target. It's really important that none of those people or teams sort of make sense when you put them all together. Hence why you have. You'd have people with kids, you'd have a mix of ages, you'd have a mix of sort of races and ethnicities. You don't want it to appear like there's a team following. Yeah, right. You want this to feel like a fragmented group of individuals and families and couples and things like that.

[Gordon Carrera]

And equally you need people here who are going to be able to follow people on the streets of Walthamstow. So they're going to start watching him. He's married, he's got a young child. Interesting enough. Ali seems suspicious, doesn't he, that he's being watched and he's kind of surveillance, at least aware or conscious. So they see him doing stuff like look around, turning suddenly, you know, trying to watch over his shoulder using mirrors and things like that.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. So movie stuff, basically, right?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. Slightly amateurish, because it gives away that you're worried about surveillance, doesn't it?

[David McCloskey]

Correct. I would guarantee you that all of that immediately raises suspicion. Through the roof inside MI5.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Why do you care? Or why do you. Why do you suspect that you'd be under surveillance?

[Gordon Carrera]

And as they watch, Ali is doing a couple of things which are interesting. He's starting to buy a lot of odd supplies and he's trying to bring together a group of people around him. So on June 30, he and Tanvir Hussain, who's kind of his lieutenant, is number two and is going to be very involved in this. They go to a Maplin's electronics store now, I think, actually Matplans has since closed down. I Could be wrong, but it's. What's the American equivalent? Best Buy. Best Buy, yeah. And they purchase a multimeter which I checked and is used to test electrical circuits and voltage. They buy a 1.6 volt bulb. Ali also orders some more light bulbs, like three dozen light bulbs, which is kind of weird. And again MI5 has seen these in previous kind of bomb related plots. It's suspicious but not really telling. Tanvir Hussain, his kind of lieutenant walks into a branch of Barclays bank, asks for a loan of 8,000 pounds. Another of their friends also asks for a loan to take an IT course. So they trying to kind of get money together. It's hard for the surveillance teams I think to know which of Ali's friends in Walthamstow are contacts significant and which aren't. July 6, Ali is out driving in his Citroen car, goes to a hardware shop. B and Q. It's like A. I don't know what the American equivalent is for that.

[David McCloskey]

Home Depot.

[Gordon Carrera]

Home Depot.

[David McCloskey]

But is it that big? Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

B and Q is a big like warehouse where you buy paint and.

[David McCloskey]

Home Depot. Home Depot menards. Yeah. Now I remember. I'm remembering little hamster wheels turning. Gordon. That when we did the Bulgarian Minions episode.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

You did not know back in the spring of last year what Best Buy was.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Remember?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Now you're up on it. Now I'm up on it. So there we go. I've been learning.

[Gordon Carrera]

You've been learning. Other days they see them going to.

[David McCloskey]

Ikea or Ikea, do you call it IKEA here?

[Gordon Carrera]

No, I never remember. There's a kind of weird pronunciation to it, but other homes. And at one point they're in Tesco's, which David is a supermarket.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

And a surveillance team from A4 see Ali and Hussain check out. And this is the next weird thing, check out plastic bottles of water and Diet Coke. And they're examining the caps and the seals around the caps for quite a few minutes. It's kind of weird.

[David McCloskey]

That is. Yeah, that's unusual.

[Gordon Carrera]

Fifteenth of July, mid afternoon, Ali meets someone they hadn't seen before. The two men, now this is also really weird. They go into Lloyd park, which is in Walthamstow, and then the two men lie down on the grass facing each other with their hands kind of cupped over their mouth and talk to each other. And obviously this is their thinking is to avoid A surveillance kind of directional surveillance and B, I guess lip readers maybe by kind of putting your hand.

[David McCloskey]

Over your mouth, I suppose. Well, and it works, doesn't it? Because the surveillance teams don't pick up any audio.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

From that.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And they spend like half an hour. I mean, it is a weird.

[David McCloskey]

It's very weird. Again, it is unsettling to see that happening in a park.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, exactly. Just for.

[David McCloskey]

For the stand. From the standpoint of another person.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

If you Arrangement would be bizarre.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. Just lying and talking to each other for now. But it is kind of. It's again, the slightly weird bit of them where they are trying to avoid surveillance and they're clearly aware they might be under surveillance, but they're also taking steps which suggest.

[David McCloskey]

Which attracts surveillance.

[Gordon Carrera]

Which attracts surveillance. So it's kind of.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

I don't know. I find it really interesting, a way of acting. But that other person they're going to identify as Acid Sawa, the person I mentioned, the friend who lives in High Wycombe, and they can also see MI5, that he's just returned from Pakistan. He's been there also June into July. He gets a code name, which is Rich Food. I mean, that's kind of just a weird one.

[David McCloskey]

It is weird. Yeah. I don't know.

[Gordon Carrera]

I think.

[David McCloskey]

I think they need to generate these. Not randomly.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, these. These need to be.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. You need to pick this based off how the guy looks or how he acts or something.

[Gordon Carrera]

Well, I think if you're in the middle of an operation, you probably like. You want to spend like an hour of your planning meeting.

[David McCloskey]

Give it to one of the interns.

[Gordon Carrera]

Give it to one of the interns. Yeah, they have interns the way you do. So they're going to start watching Saura. He is purchasing small amounts of hydrogen peroxide, which is used by hairdressers. Now, this is another big warning sign because that was what the seven. Seven bombs were made of. You have to concentrate it to make it useful. And he's buying tiny amounts at the moment, but also some equipment which he could use with it. And he's also trying to clearly stay under the radar by buying these small amounts. Now, amusingly, at some point, he tries to bury some of the stuff he's buying in a nearby wood. And this is such a weird detail. He seems to have struggled to be able to dig a hole in the wood.

[David McCloskey]

Was it the ground must have been too hard. It wasn't from like a. A conceptual problem. Right.

[Gordon Carrera]

I think he had a spade. But at one point they see him and he goes and tries to dig a hole. It doesn't work. So he goes home and takes a nap and then tries it Again. And then he Googles on the Internet how to dig a hole.

[David McCloskey]

He Googled that.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

One of the things I think we should say that we should all be very grateful for in this story is not only the effectiveness of MI5, which is impressive, as we'll say, but also the fact that Al Qaeda sometimes doesn't attract the best in rice. Yeah, right. So that's good.

[Gordon Carrera]

And he ends up buying a home based easy dig soil cultivator, which I have, which I had to look up on the Internet. What it was.

[David McCloskey]

Is that a shovel.

[Gordon Carrera]

It's a digging tool. It's a bit more than. It's not like. It's like got prongs and so anyway, but supposedly that's what you. So he's.

[David McCloskey]

Do you know, though, Gordon, that I'm actually really good at digging holes?

[Gordon Carrera]

Are you really?

[David McCloskey]

Another thing you really do. So my job before I joined the Central Intelligence Agency, so the first one was I worked at Wendy's. Yeah, right. And then the second job was I was a hole digger for a sprinkler system company.

[Gordon Carrera]

Wow.

[David McCloskey]

And so in a single summer, I dug. I think I ended up counting, it was over 10,000 holes.

[Gordon Carrera]

Wow. If only assets.

[David McCloskey]

So I have no sympathy for this.

[Gordon Carrera]

Guy, for this guy with only you.

[David McCloskey]

Also also for the terrorism. But you should know how to dig a hole.

[Gordon Carrera]

But they're going to watch him digging holes. They also see Tamvir Hussain is looking. He's buying syringes, really large syringes. They're buying drills, glue, latex gloves, all of this weird shopping list. Now things are going to get more interesting when they see that Ali, on July 20, 2006, gets keys to a maisonette flat at 386A Forest Road, Walthamstow. First time MI5 sees this new property. It'd been just bought a few weeks earlier for £138,000. It's been repossessed. It's not in great condition. So I think ostensibly the idea is they're going to do it up. Now, the day he gets the keys, Ali goes to something called a spy store.

[David McCloskey]

Is that an actual chain? A retail, I think, chain in the uk.

[Gordon Carrera]

I'm not sure it's still there, but I remember these because he's trying to get intruder detection cameras. It's really interesting as a historical insight, because these days everyone's got like video doorbell cameras. Like these are kind of easy to get and everyone's got them.

[David McCloskey]

Back then you had to go to something called the spy store. Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

To get a camera.

[David McCloskey]

Now we're all just letting everybody and their mother spy on us willingly by ourselves. Yeah, exactly.

[Gordon Carrera]

But it's so interesting that back in those days, if you wanted to have a camera which could watch your property and see if anyone was coming in, you basically had to go to this spy store which. Which sold spy and surveillance gadgetry.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

Covert cameras. I mean, it was like. It was a weird shop. I don't know if it's still there, but it was half playing at James Bond and half for kind of people who wanted to play at corporate espionage or probably worried about their spouse or stuff like that.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

Anyway, it's a kind of weird, but.

[David McCloskey]

It'S gone out of business.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Since.

[Gordon Carrera]

I don't know, we'll have to check that before we.

[David McCloskey]

A lot of the retail outlets in this story are no longer around.

[Gordon Carrera]

So he's clearly. That also sets off another kind of alarm bell for this flat. And they're seeing people going into this flat at Forest Road, but no one actually seems to be living there. Bit suspicious. July 27, they see people go in 4:44 MI5 curtains are drawn. They're there for two hours. They leave just after seven. MI5 don't know what they're doing. Another time they see someone coming out of there and they dump a bag in a bin at the nearby park. MI5 pick out the carrier bag. Looked like some batteries. So again, now the suspicion is growing that something significant is happening at this address and they clearly feel they need to get inside it and work out what's going on.

[David McCloskey]

Well, maybe they're. Gordon, with the impetus for a break in upon us, let's take a break ourselves. When we come back, we will explain how you break into a flat.

[Gordon Carrera]

See you after the break.

[David McCloskey]

Hablas espanol Spriest du dzoitsk.

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[David McCloskey]

Well, welcome back, Gordon. You've already educated our listeners and how you build nuclear weapons. All right, so now is the time for you to educate the Restless, classified audience in how you conduct a breaking and entering operation.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And maybe just before we do that, we should say that this is not an endorsement of burglary. Don't try this at home. And when MI5 do it, as we'll see, there's a kind of legal process surrounding it. So we're not endorsing burglary per se and breaking an entry. Aren't you, David?

[David McCloskey]

Sure, yeah. I think that's important to say for the lawyers mostly. I referred to it as breaking and entering and Jonathan Evans did not like that. No, no, yeah, yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

Covert entry.

[David McCloskey]

Covert entry or surreptitious entry. Yeah, I think. Which is a very. It's a very British way of saying.

[Gordon Carrera]

Breaking an entry, because I guess you're not. Ideally, you shouldn't be breaking anything, should you? You shouldn't be. You're entering.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, yeah. You're entering but not breaking.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, that's part of the point. A break in but not breaking. So how do they do it? And we should say that a lot of the detail about the surveillance operations, about COVID entry, a lot of this we know because, I mean, we'll come back to this at the end of the story. There is going to be a trial where a lot of evidence, quite unusually, of what MI5 does and how it. How it does it is presented in trial. But in this case, covert entry, we talked about mobile surveillance of suspects, tailing them round. That's a four. But there's another part of a branch who are the tech ops, if you like. They're the ones who have the skills to get into places and install things. I don't think. Think they'd be offended if we called them lawful burglars, do you? I mean, people legally authorized to do a bit of light breaking and entering.

[David McCloskey]

A bit of light, yeah, exactly. No, I. I think they would. I think they would appreciate that. Yeah. You know, and. And we should say this is a capability that most spy services have. The CIA has one as well. And I don't think any of those guys would be offended to be described as lawful burglars. And I think, as we'll see, there's a real love of the game among the breaking and entering crew. You know, it's a challenge. It's a challenge. It's an exciting challenge.

[Gordon Carrera]

I mean, the idea that you could get paid to legally be able to do this is kind of crazy. We should say it's more intrusive, isn't it, than following someone round in a public place? So you need all these Warrants, authorizations to do it. You can't do it that much either because as we'll see, it requires a lot of work to actually.

[David McCloskey]

Right.

[Gordon Carrera]

Undertake this kind of action.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. I think the, the Hollywood stereotype is it's a few people in a van.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

And it's much more labor intensive than that, as we'll say. I think also in the way these kind of operations get depicted in most spy films and television shows, usually the people doing them have a criminal past and have somehow been lured into working, you know, on a contract basis for the FBI or whatever. But I've had the, the breaking and entering types that the agency described to me as essentially like choir boys. I mean, you cannot have a criminal record and do this kind of work.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

For the CIA, I presume. For MI5.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

And when we brought this up, you know, in the meeting with Jonathan Evans, one of the other gentlemen who was there was kind of nodding his head as I was, as I was describing them. So I'd imagine it's sort of a similar vibe.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Inside MI5's breaking and entering team. I should stop saying breaking. They don't like that.

[Gordon Carrera]

No. So how do you do it? First of all, you need to do your homework and you can't just go in off the van, off the street. And I think in a way the questions that you need to answer are kind of obvious when you think about it. You want to know who is there and when they're there. Are there people there all day, all night, when are they away? You've got to work that out, which.

[David McCloskey]

Involves building a pattern of life, which involves weeks of surveillance, potentially.

[Gordon Carrera]

But I think what's interesting is when you've got a terrorist operation like this, I think you've got to do it fast.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, true.

[Gordon Carrera]

So I think there's probably a difference of intensity when you've got something where you've got maybe days, in this case up Forest Road, no one actually lives there, as we said, they're using it, but they are visiting regularly. So the next thing you have to know is that when you're thinking of going in, which is always going to be at night, how can you be sure that none of them possible people who do visit that property, and there's a lot in this case that they're not going to show up, which means surveillance on all of those people. So you've got to have all of them under control of surveillance, just in case one of them, even if it's the middle of the night, suddenly gets on the move from their home and is heading towards that flat, then you need to get those people out. So you actually have to have surveillance on everyone associated with that property who could turn up at the time you're going to do the COVID entry rather than the break in, which might be like 100 people that you need for your surveillance team to watch that, maybe it's half a dozen people. And to be sure what they're doing. And even if they're not there, you've got to ask yourself, are there alarms? Are there cameras, dogs? Dogs? What are the neighbors like? Are they the type who, if they see or hear something suspicious, they're going to call the people? Are they kind of friendly in that way? So you probably need an observation post on the property, so somewhere where you can keep watch on it, have a camera, have people outside. So that's quite a big setup. And then people in a branch will come up with a plan and they'll say, this is our plan, this is where, when we plan to do it, this is how we plan to do it, this is what we intend to do. They put up a proposal and. And then if it's approved, the team heads in.

[David McCloskey]

And one of the interesting aspects of these kind of COVID entry operations is there's a motto inside the CIA's group, or a saying, which is, you don't pick a lock, you make a key. And the point is that you want persistent access to the property. Right. And obviously you can't let the person who's in the property know that you have access to it, but you don't want to be constantly going up and having to pick that lock. And presumably MI5 would have caught video or still images of what sort of lock that is.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Before they ever approached it, and may have been able in the background inside a branch to actually just make a key for it that would then use and would be effective almost right away.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

And in fact, you know, when the agency does this, they'll have, in a warehouse somewhere, just walls of different sorts of locks and the associated keys to be obtained. Yeah. It's not a matter of individually figuring out the lock, it's a matter of building a key for it that will enable you to just get in and out whenever you want.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, you're right. You're going to need a specialist, a locksmith, effectively as part of your team. And that team is interesting because you've got to have the right mix of people, you've got to have someone who knows, understands locks. You've got to have locksmiths, you need the technical installers, who are the people who are actually going to be able to place the bugs, which is what we're talking about doing inside the property. They need to know how to wire them up, where you can put it, how you could move furniture around. You need a particular set of almost like building skills, right? You know, you need to be carpentry and things like that to understand how to do that. You've also got the problem that it's potentially the worry is it's a bomb factory. So you might need a bomb disposal expert.

[David McCloskey]

Booby trapped, right?

[Gordon Carrera]

It could be booby trapped. You've seen that before where people have actually been blown up. Madrid, I think, elsewhere, going into these apartments and they're booby trapped. So you need bomb disposal experts, you need a team. But equally, you don't want too big a team, do you? Because that's going to draw attention, see? Guessing a handful of people, they're going to get dropped off not right outside the property because that would look suspicious, but maybe just, just round the corner so that they are close enough to get in. But also not to raise too much suspicion by a band or something turning.

[David McCloskey]

Up outside before they go into the property. I gotta tell you my safe cracking story.

[Gordon Carrera]

Do it.

[David McCloskey]

Which I should have told you when we were talking about the locks, but I am just remembering it now. So the idea that these safe crackers, lockpickers, understand the mechanics of either the safe or the lock they're looking at. Before I flew over here. So I keep our family's passports in a safe in my closet.

[Gordon Carrera]

What's the combination?

[David McCloskey]

The combination? The combination is my fingerprint. And here's the thing, that safe ran out of battery. I've had it for a long time and I could not find the key to get into the battery kind of unit. And so I'm staring at the safe thinking, oh, I've got to leave in 24, 36 hours and I need that passport out of there. How do I get it out of this safe? And so do you know a guy? I know a guy and I called him, yeah. And he said, okay, send me a picture of the safe. And so I sent him a picture of the safe and he calls me back 20 minutes later and he's like, okay, turn the safe over, you know, so it's sort of facing upward and you're looking into where the door would be. He's like measure. And he's just doing this from his knowledge of this particular safe. He's like, Take a ruler and go like an inch and a quarter down from the top lip of the safe, mark a dot there and then from the other side, basically draw a line that's like an inch and a quarter from, you know, where the sort of door connects over. And that spot right there, go and get a carbide bit for your drill and drill into it right at that spot. And what'll happen is it's going to hit the bolt and that's going to start the motor moving, it's going to push the bolts in and the whole thing will spring open. And sure enough, I just laid that thing out on my patio, drilled into that exact spot and the thing just flung open.

[Gordon Carrera]

Wow.

[David McCloskey]

And so he's doing that from just the knowledge of a particular brand of safe, knowing where that, that bolt essentially is going to meet the skin of the safe and where you puncture.

[Gordon Carrera]

We, we are, we are giving so many tips to people, potential save crackers and burglars.

[David McCloskey]

It's kind of like it's, it's exciting time, exciting time.

[Gordon Carrera]

New sponsorship deal for me.

[David McCloskey]

That's right.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right, back to Forest Road. So the team are going into Forest Road. It's a split level maz net. So you go through the front door. Now one door on the left leads to the downstairs flat and then there's another door to go up to the target flat. And of course it's going to be pitch black when they go in. It's all dark. Can't turn on the lights so you have to use a torch. They're going to check it's empty, I'd imagine. We know because we later see pictures of this when this all comes to trial. That is a kitchen upstairs with some stuff in it that they bought. It's an pretty empty bathroom, living room and upstairs, two bedrooms. One has some boxes in it. Now, the bomb disposal, I suppose first of all gonna have to give this the all clear. In one of the boxes there's some of the kind of weird, weird chemistry kits, hydroponic test kits, which I've since discovered are there to check pHs, glass jars, dyes, batteries. One jar is some kind of gloopy liquid in it which they're going to carefully take a sample of. They're videoing as they go. And we know this and we know all these details because this is all going to come out in the trial. Now, amusingly, I think that team may not have realized or may have forgotten that this could be used as evidence in court. And so you can hear them talking at various points. At one point you hear them going, when they see the gloopy stuff, why don't you touch it? And then someone's joking. Cut the blue wire. It's like it's a bomb. And then at one point you hear one of them say on the video, I effing love my job.

[David McCloskey]

But in all seriousness, right, just sort of surprised that he gets to do.

[Gordon Carrera]

This because it's just so crazy what he's doing. Yeah, I just love that detail. But it's obvious to the team that the kitchen is where the action is and where whoever's using this flat are doing things. So in the kitchen they're going to find some strange liquid in the bin. The kitchen cabinet has this row of Leucozade bottles in the line. Do you have Lucozade?

[David McCloskey]

I don't think so. That sounds like motor oil. What is it?

[Gordon Carrera]

No, no, it's an energy drink. It's a really good energy drink. Some are empty, some look full. So at this point, the technical installers from Abranch would get to work. They would be trying to work out where you can place the bugs and devices on the night. It's interesting, you also need that surveillance team of watchers around them who they can communicate with just in case something happens.

[David McCloskey]

Right.

[Gordon Carrera]

And actually it's really interesting that on that night that they're there that first night, at least there's stuff going on in the streets. So there's a police surveillance team keeping an eye and a bunch of drunks look like they're about to start a fight outside the kebab shop. Very, very London. And it looks like, you know, this could get nasty and one of them pulls a knife and the police are obviously going to have to intervene if it looks dangerous, but fortunately it breaks up, so that doesn't compromise the operation. That first night, though, this team get initial audio coverage into the flight that. It's good. What they really want, though is TV coverage, which is much more useful. But it's obviously harder to get because you, you've got to get. Got to find a place where you can hide a.

[David McCloskey]

You need a power source. Ultimately you've got to hook the, the video cameras into something. Right. You've got to wire it in to. I. I'd imagine it's kind of battery driven in 2006.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, I.

[David McCloskey]

You need perpetual coverage. It's an interesting question because I think, I think in, in some of the longer term kind of surveillance operations I'm.

[Gordon Carrera]

Thinking of, you need to, you need.

[David McCloskey]

To wire it in to something which is part of the difficulty with these things is you're talking about. Talking about drilling, you know, really. And you're talking. So that becomes challenging because then it's like you need silent drills and things like that.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. My understanding, I mean, it's definitely harder when you haven't got control of the property and you're only in there for a while. So they can't do it on that first night. And they're gonna go in a couple more nights to try and get that TV coverage in because you've gotta work out where you can put it. And for obvious reasons we're not gonna go into exactly where that might be. And we don't know, to be honest, or how they did it. But we do know they get it.

[David McCloskey]

I think. You know, I don't know. I think Gordon knows.

[Gordon Carrera]

No, I don't know.

[David McCloskey]

That's a very suspicious rebuttal, Gordon.

[Gordon Carrera]

But it's. No, it's, it's. I just think it's, it's. That's the kind of sources of methods, isn't it, of how you get a covert camera and how you. How you hide it in a property. And we do know that there's covert camera because again, footage from it will be used in trials. So we know, we know it eventually does get in there. But I think that is where the real technical skill of these installers lies, which is to look at a place and go, where can I place a covert camera where it won't be spotted and it will get the coverage of a room that you need? I mean, it's, it's pretty impressive stuff in terms of how you do it and you've got to install it all in the dark.

[David McCloskey]

I'm guessing you've got a flipping lights on.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, you're not flipping the lights on. So you're going to be kind of wearing a. You know, either have a head torch, I guess, or a tiny torch. If you make a mistake, you leave a bit of dust somewhere or a hole or you're going to give it all away, aren't you?

[David McCloskey]

I was surprised it wasn't mentioned in here. And maybe they didn't use it. But another piece of this that I think usually accompanies a breaking and entering operation is having people go in and take video and photos of the entire place right up front. So then as you leave, you can compare polaroids. Yeah, exactly.

[Gordon Carrera]

To the photos and video, I think. I don't know if they did it in this case, but I've spoken to Other people who talk about that, taking Polaroid pictures so they're instantly developed and you can lay them there. And then as you move stuff around to either search it or place something there, you can then make sure you put it back in exactly the right place. But it takes a few nights, not much sleep for this team from a branch. But eventually they do succeed in getting audio and video coverage. And that means they're going to be able to see and hear what is happening in the property in real time. And that is going to be crucial because previously you had all these disparate leads, strange stuff they're buying. And for the first time, that coverage will bring everything together and bring clarity to what this group of terrorists are making and what they intend to do with it.

[David McCloskey]

And they're gonna see something very strange.

[Gordon Carrera]

Very strange and very disturbing.

[David McCloskey]

Well, maybe there, Gordon. Let's end our first episode of this adventure into the MI5 investigation of this liquid bomb plot. But we'd be remiss if we didn't say that if you go ahead and join the declassified [e-mail] you can download all of those episodes right now, as well as get access to our two part interview with former Director General of MI5, Jonathan Evans, as he talks with us in the windowless basement room of MI5 itself about this plot.

[Gordon Carrera]

And one more thing, David. Club members are going to get exclusively the first four chapters of your new book, the Persian just out, as well as, I think, a special introduction from you. So that's there for club members. So do sign up to hear that, but otherwise we'll see you next time.

[David McCloskey]

We'll see you next time.

[Gordon Carrera]

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