Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified – Episode "Introducing... Legacy"

Release Date: April 17, 2025

Introduction to "Legacy" Podcast

In the latest episode of The Rest Is Classified, hosts Goalhanger introduce listeners to another compelling podcast titled Legacy, a collaborative effort between Wondery and Goalhanger. This new series delves deep into the lives and enduring impacts of some of history’s most influential figures.

Hosts of Legacy: Peter Frankopan and Afua Hirsch

Legacy is helmed by historian Peter Frankopan and broadcaster Afua Hirsch. Together, they explore the intricate lives of monumental personalities, ranging from political leaders like Margaret Thatcher and JFK to historical icons such as Napoleon and Cleopatra. The hosts aim to uncover how the past actions and decisions of these figures continue to influence the present day.

Exploring Sigmund Freud’s Impact on Espionage

In their latest season, Legacy shifts focus to Sigmund Freud, exploring an unexpected facet of his influence: his contributions to the field of espionage. Hosts Goalhanger reveal that Freud's pioneering work in psychoanalysis has significantly impacted intelligence operations, particularly in areas such as interrogation techniques and the identification of psychological vulnerabilities in targets.

Host 1 [00:28]: "And in their latest season, they are exploring the legacy of Sigmund Freud. Now, it may come as a bit of a surprise, but Freud's work has had a significant impact on the world of espionage."

Freud’s "Interpretation of Dreams" and Espionage Applications

A key highlight of Freud's work discussed in Legacy is his seminal book, "The Interpretation of Dreams." Published on November 4, 1899, this book introduces groundbreaking concepts about the unconscious mind, including the famous Oedipus Complex.

Peter Frankopan [02:15]: "If you've ever heard of any book by Sigmund Freud, it's going to be this one. It's the Interpretation of Dreams."

The hosts elaborate on how Freud's theories were leveraged by intelligence agencies. For instance, in 1943, the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), the precursor to the CIA, commissioned psychoanalyst Walter Langer to profile Adolf Hitler. Utilizing Freudian psychoanalysis, Langer accurately predicted that Hitler might commit suicide if faced with imminent defeat.

Host 1 [00:56]: "For example, in 1943, the precursor to the CIA, which is then called the OSS, commissioned a profile on Adolf Hitler written by a psychoanalyst named Walter Langer, who was trained via Freudian psychoanalysis. And Langer correctly predicted that Hitler would potentially end his own life if he felt defeat was imminent."

Clip from Legacy: In-Depth Discussion on Freud

The episode features a clip from the second episode of Legacy, where Peter Frankopan and Afua Hirsch engage in a detailed discussion about Freud's "The Interpretation of Dreams." They explore the context of its publication, its initial reception, and its lasting significance in psychology and beyond.

Afua Hirsch [02:33]: "Do you know why? That's not what I want to hear. I'm 43, and I'm hoping that the book I'm currently writing is going to do for me what the Interpretation of Dreams did for Freud, but I'm not trying to wait eight years to reap the rewards."

Expert Insight from Brett Carr

Legacy enriches its exploration with insights from Brett Carr, a Freud expert and psychoanalyst. Carr emphasizes the transformative impact of Freud’s work, stating that "The Interpretation of Dreams" is considered one of the most important books of the 20th century due to its interdisciplinary influence on psychology, culture, and art.

Brett Carr [06:32]: "So 600 books in eight years was a very, very poor set of sales. And whether that was due to the fact that the publishers were not very good at publicizing that, I cannot say. But there would have been something considered very, very unusual in the book because nobody had really written properly on the psychology of dreams."

Carr also addresses the initial skepticism surrounding Freud's theories, noting that while dream analysis remains one of the less controversial aspects of his work, the broader scientific community has debated the validity and applicability of his ideas.

Brett Carr [08:05]: "I think that the dream analysis is one of the areas of Freud's works that has perhaps been the least controversial because everybody knows that no two people dream in quite the same way."

The Oedipus Complex and Its Cultural Resonance

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the Oedipus Complex, a cornerstone of Freudian theory. This concept posits that during the phallic stage of development (ages three to six), children harbor unconscious sexual desires for their opposite-sex parent and experience rivalry with their same-sex parent. The term is derived from the tragic Greek play by Sophocles, where Oedipus unknowingly kills his father and marries his mother.

Afua Hirsch [03:12]: "It's named the Oedipus Complex because of the tragedy by the famous Greek playwright Sophocles in which Oedipus, the king of Thebes, inadvertently kills his father and marries his mother."

The hosts inject a touch of humor while addressing this complex theory, highlighting the challenges and personal discomfort it may evoke.

Afua Hirsch [03:37]: "Well, this is more a boy mother thing, but I have to say I've been reading about different writers relationships with Freud and I read this essay about this young man who kept creating art and giving it to his mother and he thought it was, for example, a road leading to a sunset, only for his mother to look at it and just see like a throbbing erect penis."

Freud’s Personal Struggles and the Genesis of His Theories

The discussion also delves into Freud’s personal life, particularly his struggles with grief following his father's death in 1896. This period of personal turmoil influenced his work, leading him to engage in self-analysis and explore unresolved emotions and childhood memories through his writings.

Peter Frankopan [05:12]: "I think that that process, what Freud was trying to do, was to try to deal with grief. So his father had died in 1896, and Freud was dealing, as is usually the case when a close relative dies, with unresolved emotions and memories from his childhood."

Reception and Enduring Influence of "The Interpretation of Dreams"

Despite its initial poor sales—only 600 copies sold over eight years—Freud's "The Interpretation of Dreams" eventually gained substantial recognition. Legacy underscores how the book became a foundational text in psychology, influencing not only academic circles but also permeating cultural and artistic domains.

Peter Frankopan [07:57]: "Brett the Interpretation of Dreams is now seen as one of the most important books of the whole of the 20th century, partly because of its interdisciplinary disciplinary impact on psychology, culture and art."

Conclusion: The Lasting Legacy of Freud’s Theories

The Rest Is Classified concludes the episode by highlighting how Freud’s theories, particularly his approach to dream analysis, continue to inform contemporary understanding of the human psyche. The episode emphasizes the intricate connections between historical psychological theories and their applications in unexpected fields like espionage, showcasing the profound and multifaceted legacy of Sigmund Freud.

Brett Carr [08:05]: "But really, the main conclusion of Freud's book is that a dream is not just a dream. It's a huge source of data about the hidden and conflictual aspects of our mind."

Key Takeaways:

• Legacy podcast explores influential historical figures, with its latest season focusing on Sigmund Freud.
• Freud’s "The Interpretation of Dreams" has had a significant, albeit initially underappreciated, impact on both psychology and espionage.
• Concepts like the Oedipus Complex remain central to discussions of Freud’s work and its cultural implications.
• Expert insights, such as those from Brett Carr, provide depth to the exploration of Freud’s enduring influence.
• The episode underscores the unexpected applications of psychological theories in fields like intelligence and espionage.

For fans of espionage, history, and psychology, this episode of The Rest Is Classified offers a fascinating intersection of these domains, shedding light on how foundational psychological theories extend their reach into the clandestine operations that shape global events.