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- [00:04]
Host 1
Hello. Rest is classified, listeners. We are dropping in to tell you about another wonderful podcast from Wondery and Goal Hanger called Legacy.
- [00:12]
Host 2
That's right. It's hosted by historian Peter Frankapan and broadcaster Afua Hirsch, and they delve into the lives of some of history's most influential figures, from Margaret Thatcher to Napoleon, JFK to Cleopatra, unpacking what their pasts reveal about our present.
- [00:28]
Host 1
And in their latest season, they are exploring the legacy of Sigmund Freud. Now, it may come as a bit of a surprise, but Freud's work has had a significant impact on the world of espionage.
- [00:39]
Host 2
That is right. I mean, his work contributed to how interrogators extracted information from subjects and also helped intelligence services identify psychological vulnerabilities in foreign leaders and other targets, using things like past traumas and childhood experiences to predict behaviors.
- [00:56]
Host 1
For example, in 1943, the precursor to the CIA, which is then called the OSS, commissioned a profile on Adolf Hitler written by a psychoanalyst named Walter Langer, who was trained via Freudian psychoanalysis. And Langer correctly predicted that Hitler would potentially end his own life if he felt defeat was imminent.
- [01:18]
Host 2
And we're about to play you a clip from the second episode in the series about Freud. In this clip, Peter and Afua are talking about Freud's seminal publication of the Interpretation of Dreams.
- [01:28]
Host 1
You'll also hear from Freud expert and psychoanalyst Brett Carr, who really helped the Legacy host get inside the mind of Freud. If you like what you hear, search and follow Legacy wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:45]
Peter Frankopan
So it's early winter, 1899. The 19th century is drawing to a close, but it's not the end of an era. In fact, in Europe, the Belle Epoque is at its height. It's a time of peace, economic prosperity, and flourishing cultural innovations.
- [02:01]
Afua Hirsch
And in Vienna, Freud is about to publish a book that will put his name on the map. Eventually, before his star can rise, his ideas need to find an audience, but perhaps even liberal Europe isn't ready for them.
- [02:16]
Peter Frankopan
If you've ever heard of any book by Sigmund Freud, it's going to be this one. It's the Interpretation of Dreams. It's published on November 4, 1899. Freud is 43. Only 600 copies are printed. But you know how long it takes to sell all of those? Afwa? Eight years.
- [02:33]
Afua Hirsch
Do you know why? That's not what I want to hear. I'm 43, and I'm hoping that the book I'm currently writing is going to do for me what the interpretation of Dreams did for Freud, but I'm not trying to wait eight years to reap the rewards.
- [02:46]
Peter Frankopan
You're going to sell 250. Your book launch. Come off it. Freud takes two years to sell 250 copies. But maybe the most notable thing about the book is it introduces the famous idea of the Oedipus Complex, which outlines how during the so called phallic phase, as Freud terms it, of between three and six years old, children experience unconscious sexual desires for their opposite sex parent and rivalry with their same sex parent.
- [03:13]
Afua Hirsch
It's named the Oedipus Complex because of the tragedy by the famous Greek playwright Sophocles in which Oedipus, the king of Thebes, inadvertently kills his father and marries his mother. Okay, Peter, come on. We've got to get a little bit personal. Have you ever had fantasies of having sex with your mother and murdering your father?
- [03:33]
Peter Frankopan
I haven't, no. And in fact I'm slightly threatened by the idea that I might have done. No. How about you?
- [03:38]
Afua Hirsch
Well, this is more a boy mother thing, but I have to say I've been reading about different writers relationships with Freud and I read this essay about this young man who kept creating art and giving it to his mother and he thought it was, for example, a road leading to at sunset, only for his mother to look at it and just see like a throbbing erect penis. Sorry, this is maybe too graphic language.
- [04:00]
Peter Frankopan
For her, but I think it's one of those things that once it's been said like don't put your finger in the plug socket, that it's almost impossible not to, then think about it.
- [04:09]
Afua Hirsch
Freud describes this book as the royal road to the knowledge of the unconscious in mental life. And although it's not widely read, criticism, as you would expect, is directed at how unscientific dream interpretation is and how easy it would be to influence patients with his own ideas.
- [04:28]
Peter Frankopan
But over time, it's fair to say Freud's ideas start to gain traction with intellectuals and with psychologists. And within 10 years it's become recognized as not just a foundational, but maybe the foundational text in psychology.
- [04:42]
Afua Hirsch
Let's just talk a bit about how Freud came to write this seminal book, the Interpretation of Dreams. To understand that, we need to look back to 1895, when Freud completed his first dream analysis, a dream he referred to as Irma's injection. Analysing its symbolism and themes. Freud concluded it was about his wish for exoneration from mishandling a patient's treatment. And then he continued his dream analysis, recording his dreams in a Daily Journal.
- [05:12]
Peter Frankopan
I think that that process, what Freud was trying to do, was to try to deal with grief. So his father had died in 1896, and Freud was dealing, as is usually the case when a close relative dies, with unresolved emotions and memories from his childhood. Writing to his friend Wilhelm Fliess, he says, through some of the dark paths behind the official consciousness, the old man's death has moved me very much. I now have an uprooted feeling.
- [05:36]
Afua Hirsch
By the summer of 1897, alongside his dream analysis, Freud begins a daily practice of self analysis. He's exploring and analyzing childhood memories, fantasies and emotional reactions and looking to uncover the unconscious roots of his self, psychological conflicts and behaviors.
- [05:56]
Peter Frankopan
Now, if you listen to our first program in this series on Sigmund Freud, you'll know that we've enlisted some expert help with some of the finer points of Freud's work and his life in the shape of Professor Brett Carr. He's honorary director of research at the Freud Museum, a Freud scholar and a psychoanalyst himself. And he's the man to talk about the significance of this book. Brett the Interpretation of Dreams is now seen as one of the most important books of the whole of the 20th century, partly because of its interdisciplinary disciplinary impact on psychology, culture and art. But it didn't sell on release. Was the world just not ready?
- [06:33]
Brett Carr
His book was first printed in the month of October 1899, and unsurprisingly, the publishers put the date 1900 on the front page to really indicate that this was the start of a new era. So 600 books in eight years was a very, very poor set of sales. And whether that was due to the fact that the publishers were not very good at publicizing that, I cannot say. But there would have been something considered very, very unusual in the book because nobody had really written properly on the psychology of dreams. Dreams had, of course, been part of the human discourse for thousands of years. As you too will both know, ancient Greeks commented on dreams quite extensively, but did not link dreams to early childhood experiences, particularly early traumatic experiences and indeed sexual experiences. And really, the main takeaway point from Freud's dream book of 1900 is that dreams represent the kinds of thoughts and wishes and desires and hatreds that we cannot bear to express or even think consciously during the daytime. So he was really being very bold in that book.
- [07:58]
Afua Hirsch
Has that theory stood up, Brett? Is that still how dreams are regarded by modern psychology and psychoanalysis today?
- [08:05]
Brett Carr
I think that the dream analysis is one of the areas of Freud's works that has perhaps been the least controversial because everybody knows that no two people dream in quite the same way. But dreams are really like watching Netflix. These are dramatic nighttime experiences that we all have as human beings. You know, most people would simply wake up and they might say to their spouse, oh, last night I dreamt that, you know, my father died or my uncle died, that sort of thing. And the spouse might just say, oh, don't worry, it was just a dream. That phrase is so frequently used in the English language. It was just a dream. But really, the main conclusion of Freud's book is that a dream is not just a dream. It's a huge source of data about the hidden and conflictual aspects of our mind.