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- [00:04]
A
For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter and discounted books. Join the Declassified club@the restisclassified.com.
- [00:25]
B
Welcome club members. Secret squirrels. We discovered that it really is called a scurry of squirrels, which I hadn't realized was the collective noun for squirrels. But that is. That is what.
- [00:36]
A
Shame on you, Gordon. Shame on you.
- [00:38]
B
Now I know.
- [00:38]
A
Add that to your nut file, Gordon, on top of your many other crimes.
- [00:41]
B
Yes, welcome, whatever you want to be called to the last of our three part miniseries, exclusively for club members. Looking at the rise of Vladimir Putin and his time from the KGB up to becoming leader of Russia. In parallel, of course, to our series on Evgeny Prigozhin, Putin's chef, caterer, mercenary, warlord. We're kind of really focusing on that period, particularly in the 1990s, when these different forces come together. And again, we have our very special guest with us, Mark Galeotti. And we left, didn't we, with Putin in St. Petersburg in this murky world of organized crime and government, didn't we? Which I guess begs the question, doesn't it, David, what happens next?
- [01:31]
A
Yes, and it is, I think even after having, you know, over the years read many histories of Vladimir Putin's rise in the 1990s, it is still, as we say, it kind of astounding to think that the deputy mayor of St. Petersburg, this guy who had just come out of the KGB within a few short years time, will be running essentially the successor to the KGB and then eventually become the president of Russia. So, I mean, Mark, how does this journey begin out of St. Petersburg with Vladimir Putin on his way to Moscow?
- [02:09]
C
Well, it begins with an end, the end of Sobchak's period as mayor. He stands for re election and he loses. And all of a sudden all of his people are out of work and certainly there's no room for Putin. However, he has made a reputation for himself. He's made a reputation for himself as a loyal and efficient and discreet bagman, as the sort of person you want as your deputy, to do all the things, all the dirty work that needs to be done and to ensure that you live an easy and highly solvent life. So at this point, obviously, Putin is desperately putting out feelers and in this respect, he's helped by the old boy network of the ex KGB officers, but also Sobchak himself, maybe because of affection for his deputy mayor, maybe because he realises it will be useful. And it's worth noting that Putin's loyalty to Sobchak is such that when there's eventually an arrest warrant that is put out for him, it's Putin who arranges a private flight to spirit him away to Switzerland ahead of that arrest warrant. So, you know, he understands that loyalties are important things. But anyway, so such is his reputation that he's actually offered the job of deputy head of the Presidential Property Management Agency. Now, that may not sound like the most exciting position, and it's not, but what it is is, by golly, it is lucrative. This is one of the most extraordinarily corrupt elements of what is already an extraordinarily corrupt system. And the head of the agency sees in Putin someone who precisely can basically act as a firebreak, can make sure that all the dirty deals get done, but that they're not actually involving him. And this is precisely what Putin does. And in the process, because he suddenly now moved to the big city, you know, Moscow is a very different kind of political environment from St. Petersburg, but it is also one in which everyone is keenly aware of who the rising stars are. And so what happens is people start to think of Putin as an interesting character, not because he's actually interesting, he continues to be a rather boring, grey individual, but that he performs a very interesting function at a time when no one knows who they can trust. Putin seems to be trustworthy, and that is actually quite a talent, quite an attribute in this particular environment. So likewise, when they're looking for a new head of the fsb, the Federal Security Service, Putin's name comes into the frame, because from the point of view of Yeltsin and the group known as the Family, who are the people around Yeltsin, some of whom actually are related, but many are not various oligarchs and the like, there is that sense of this is a really powerful institution and you want to have someone in there who above all is loyal. And the interesting thing is, I mean, obviously, yes, Putin has an ex KGB background. He was never involved in management. And what I've heard from people who were in the FSB at that time is that he wasn't a particularly effective manager. Shock, horror, because he didn't really understand how the institution worked. He didn't really understand what, what it meant to be the director of such an agency. So to a large extent, his deputies were able to basically run the agency for him. But the main thing is he was there to make sure that it was politically controlled, that he was loyal to Yeltsin and that mattered.
- [05:43]
B
In other words, that it investigated the right people and not the wrong people, exactly.
- [05:47]
C
It's the methodology that we see later under Putinism. Putin, frankly, encourages everyone to be corrupt because you want everyone to have a skeleton in their closet when you get to decide whose closet gets rummaged through. So even at this point we see this, that Putin knows the investigations to push forward and the ones to allow to die.
- [06:08]
B
And it's interesting. I mean, we should maybe paint a bit of a picture. We've moved from St. Petersburg to Moscow as the kind of scene for our story here, and Boris Yeltsin is in power. And as you said, there were also around him though, these oligarchs, these figures who have become enormously rich, partly due to these kind of slightly murky shares for loans deals around the 1996 election, where they get ownership of large chunks of state industries and become incredibly rich by backing Yeltsin in his election campaign and loaning money. And some of them will become incredibly powerful figures like Boris Berezovsky, famously, who will be perhaps the leading of these oligarchs and also serve in roles in government as well as being incredibly rich. And this is all he ends up becoming, exiled. We talked a bit about how a lower level organized crime and the security world had joined together in St. Petersburg. It's at a kind of different level at the top now, isn't it, this kind of murky world that operates out of Moscow.
- [07:09]
C
Yeah, it's a different level, but it's similarly, I mean, essentially when he's at the director of the fsb, what Putin is providing is security for some people and insecurity for others. Again, he's essentially leveraging the resources at his disposal. Now at this point, it's not so much that he's enriching himself in purely financial terms. Now he's beginning to reach the stage where he's enriching himself in political terms. He's in some ways collecting favours, he's collecting clients, rather than just simply wads of cash, because again, he's not anywhere near the oligarch or even minigarch level. But nonetheless, he's certainly not short a bob or two. So again, politics is the new currency at that level.
- [07:56]
B
Is there any side that he wants to become leader or has any ambition? Or is it a series of chances, do you think?
- [08:04]
C
I think it's essentially a series of chances, because. No, there isn't. I mean, clearly as he rises through the system, he begins to make more programmatic statements in interviews and things. But that's just because that's what the job requires more than anything else. But, I mean, it seems to have come as much as a surprise to him as to everyone else when he's then made Prime Minister after his year at the fsb. And that, in many ways was really a last stage of. Though he didn't know it at the time, a job interview, shall we say. You know, he was one of many potential candidates who had been picked. You know, Yeltsin, it's fair to say that his health and stability had never been that great and had got worse. He was an extraordinary figure because when he had an enemy, he was focused and dynamic and powerful. When he didn't have an enemy, when in some ways he had the opportunity to, for example, build a new Russia, Yeltsin had no real vision and he would fall apart. And frankly, that was when the issues of pills and booze became all the more problematic. So, you know, there was already a quiet search for someone who could be a loyal factotum, someone who could be a suitable frontman for the family, who actually can do the things that Yeltsin couldn't do, like walk unaided, but also actually bring some kind of stability back to this country. And, you know, Russia had just been through a whole sequence of prime ministers, some of whom had only lasted for a few months. And so, you know, the idea that it was going to be Putin, well, you know, at the time, people were surprised because no one really knew who Putin was publicly outside kind of political circles. But what was quite interesting was this time the music stopped. This time the family decided, okay, this is the guy. This is the guy who is worth to have. And it's only at that point, really, that they started to actually tell Putin what they had in mind for him.
- [10:06]
A
Is Putin a drinker? This is somewhat non sequitur, but it made me. The Yeltsin comment made me wonder, does he. Does he imbibe or what's his relationship with the sauce like?
- [10:19]
C
No, he's essentially teetotal. I mean, he will from time to time have a sip of champagne when it's at a suitable festival or something like that. But no, that's not his vice. I mean, you know, his vices seem to be much more about power and ego rather than such sort of disciplined. He is. He is.
- [10:40]
B
Discover how Vladimir Putin rose to the top of the Russian Security Service, the fsb, and ultimately to the top position in the country by joining the declassified club at the restisclassified. Com.