Marina Hyde (2:09)

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina

Richard Osmond (2:13)

Hyde, and me, Richard Osmond. Hello, everyone. Hi, Marina.

Marina Hyde (2:15)

Hello, Richard. How are you?

Richard Osmond (2:16)

I'm all right. How lovely to be back as always, it is.

Marina Hyde (2:19)

It is lovely to be back. I have been in Paris but I'm now return. Yeah.

Richard Osmond (2:24)

Oh my God.

Marina Hyde (2:25)

For a few days. Seen all the signs with my daughter.

Richard Osmond (2:28)

You've seen all the sights?

Marina Hyde (2:29)

I've seen all the signs.

Richard Osmond (2:31)

Was it Eiffel Tower?

Marina Hyde (2:32)

Yeah, yeah. At Versailles.

Richard Osmond (2:33)

You know all of the Versailles. I don't know Eiffel Tower.

Marina Hyde (2:37)

I know, yeah, we went out to Versailles. She really wanted to go to Versailles. She wanted to see the Marie Antoinette's Hamo and it is amazing. I've actually never seen it in real life. You know the place where she used to play at being a shepherdess and they built an entire little village for her around a sort of ornamental lake of quaint cottages.

Richard Osmond (2:51)

What are you talking about?

Marina Hyde (2:52)

Yeah, I'm telling you this is true. The hammo Hamlet and she used to dye a sheep pink and play at being a shepherdess there when it just got too much. Being the richest woman in France, I

Richard Osmond (3:01)

could see that your daughter would.

Marina Hyde (3:03)

Yeah, it was very. Yeah, I can imagine Lauren Sanchez doing something similar.

Richard Osmond (3:05)

Actually I recommended it before. But the Parisian Agency, which is back on Netflix, remains the greatest property show in the history of television. Those sons, that family. Oh my goodness. Also, there's a very, very, very conspicuous hair transplant on this season of Parisian Agency. If you are involved in production in television at all, you can absolutely see when they film the various bits of that show by how the guy's hair

Marina Hyde (3:29)

is by the plugs.

Richard Osmond (3:31)

Simply buy where it is. Anyway, that's by the by.

Marina Hyde (3:34)

Today we are talking about a big feud. Alex Cooper versus Alex Earle, who are sort of two leading lights in the digital economy. And we're going to talk about modern feuds.

Richard Osmond (3:44)

We've had a lot of messages asking us about this feud.

Marina Hyde (3:47)

Yeah.

Richard Osmond (3:47)

And I know very little about it but fortunately I'm sitting opposite someone who knows a bit more about it.

Marina Hyde (3:52)

Oh, believe me, I've done my degree in it. We're also talking about Michael, the Michael Jackson movie which is opens this week. Yeah, it's going to be this week.

Richard Osmond (4:00)

Enormous.

Marina Hyde (4:00)

We talked about it before but now it's enormous. Normity is upon us. We better have a curtain raiser to that. And finally we're going to discuss some trash and treasure in this episode.

Richard Osmond (4:10)

It's mainly trash, isn't it?

Marina Hyde (4:11)

Mainly trash, isn't it? Binky Felstead, a sort of second tier maiden Chelsea star who has been dragged on social media for requesting she's an influencer now and she's requested a free cake in Order for collaboration, et cetera. And we're gonna talk about the backlash against influencers that. That epitomises.

Richard Osmond (4:30)

Will somebody please leave influencers alone? Yes, I think they're like the miners were in the 1980s. I think influencers are now.

Marina Hyde (4:38)

Do you?

Richard Osmond (4:38)

Yeah, I really do.

Marina Hyde (4:39)

Okay, can you save that for the binky item? Because I really want to hear that piece of.

Richard Osmond (4:43)

I'm going to be talking largely about the num.

Marina Hyde (4:46)

I think they're like something else, which. So I'll talk about that.

Richard Osmond (4:48)

I think Arthur Scargle is like Spencer Matthews. But anyway, listen, we'll get into it.

Marina Hyde (4:52)

I can hardly talk about anything else now. Now I know that's coming. Okay, so Alex Cooper versus Alex Earl.

Richard Osmond (4:59)

Here we go.

Marina Hyde (5:00)

Now, if you thought these people were the same person, this is going to come as quite a shock to. Sorry about that. But we'll have to move on because there's a lot to get through. Both are very. They seem similar because they're both very successful sort of blonde social media personalities.

Richard Osmond (5:14)

Should I tell you what I know about Alex Cooper?

Marina Hyde (5:15)

Yeah, tell me what you know.

Richard Osmond (5:16)

She is like the most successful podcaster in the world, apart from Joe Rogan. Yeah, she does call her daddy and she's made like $150 million from it. And that is where my knowledge runs out.

Marina Hyde (5:27)

Well, that's good.

Richard Osmond (5:27)

And also, wasn't she the least sooner of Arctic Monkeys?

Marina Hyde (5:30)

I mean, in a previous life and indeed sex. They do look similar. That's partly because of fashion, partly because of Instagram face, partly in my view, because of the homogenizing effects of many of these modern tweakments. They do genuinely look similar, but I don't think either of them would be probably satisfied with the creator handle. I think they've both got potentials to sort of ascend to mogul status in this new economy. And as you say, yeah, Alex Cooper, she's got this podcast. It's not a stop for just people like, you know, the Kardashians or pop stars or whatever. Michelle Obama's been on it famously, Kamala Harris and her sort of rather late timed White House run made that her stop. And that was a big deal.

Richard Osmond (6:07)

It's huge in the States. It's pretty big over here, but enormous in the States.

Marina Hyde (6:10)

Enormous. And obviously there were all the attendant product lines and crucially, brand deals. Alix Earle, who's a bit younger, she's 25. Alex Cooper's 31 came up via get ready with me videos on TikTok. She then came second in a series of Dancing with the Stars. You've talked about how they're bringing all

Richard Osmond (6:28)

these younger people in, influencers and what have you.

Marina Hyde (6:30)

She came second in the series and people really supported her. You know, Lady Gaga came out first. It became quite a big sort of thing. And she had a podcast called Hot Mess, and she's now got a YouTube show and she's developing a Netflix show about her family. So you can see how they make it all about themselves, as it were. That's the way of it.

Richard Osmond (6:48)

Yeah.

Marina Hyde (6:48)

But they are now feuding and it's completely lit up social media. And I have to tell you, the timeline, this feels like, by the way, when I'm doing this timeline, you're probably thinking, yeah, yeah, stop. Now I get the point with it. But actually, all of it's important. And I'll get to why.

Richard Osmond (7:01)

Look at all of this. Please pay attention. Attention to the lecture. There will be a test.

Marina Hyde (7:06)

The staging posts are important.

Richard Osmond (7:07)

The chronology is very important.

Marina Hyde (7:09)

So in August 2023, they first collaborate, these two. There's a post reading, two blondes walk into a boardroom. You see the whole mogul thing. Alex Cooper signed Alex Earle to Unwell, which is her sort of podcast network, which is trying to not just projects that she fronts, but have all these other people that she brings out. And she says, I feel honored to be at a place in my career where I can pass along knowledge and advice for a new generation of creators to flourish.

Richard Osmond (7:33)

Alex Cooper is huge already.

Marina Hyde (7:35)

Ye.

Richard Osmond (7:36)

She is expanding out her network from Call Her Daddy, and one of her first signings is this young Tyro, Alex Earl.

Marina Hyde (7:43)

Okay, so that's in 2023, in February 2025.

Richard Osmond (7:47)

Culture moves very quickly these days, isn't it, by the way?

Marina Hyde (7:49)

Yes.

Richard Osmond (7:49)

If we were talking about, you know, Cadillac or something like that, we would go. And then in 1927. Whereas for us, if something happens in, you know, October 2024, it's like ancient history.

Marina Hyde (8:00)

Well, if you're not always on, everyone forgets about you. And that's part of all of this. February 2025, Alex Cooper drops Alix Earle. Doesn't explain why. And it's all sort of divined by social media sleuths, as we call them, who notice that Alex Earle doesn't go to the Unwell super bowl party, even though she is in town. Of course she's in town, because as we know, super bowl is like, you know, the brand apocalypse. Everyone is there, wherever they're holding it. Everyone's like, I don't know what's going on. Why isn't she there? And Alex Earl does a TikTok saying, I also don't know what's going on. The next month in 2025, Alex ear her podcast is on hiatus for the foreseeable future. She doesn't want to get into why and she can't get into why. And she's going to do vlogging from now on. So there's all sorts of. Because she says she can't get into why, there's all sorts of speculation. And Alex Cooper then has to descend from on high to her own TikTok and say, I see your comments. Alex not being able to podcast has nothing to do with Unwell. I don't know why she can't what's going on. Unwell gave her everything back. She owns her ip. A couple of months later, Alex Earl is being interviewed by the Wall Street Journal, obviously, of course. And she says she wants to rev Hot mess the podcast and that behind the scenes, it all was a bit of a hot mess. Again, it's always this sort of teasing. It's never the revealing.

Richard Osmond (9:12)

Yeah.

Marina Hyde (9:12)

But the biggest tease comes in August last year where she is on a TikTok and she says this Alex Earl, this is Alex says, my co star tells me that I can start today. I mean, is this my time I've been waiting for to go? It's like, I have so much information.

Richard Osmond (9:25)

We could go, God, this is so this.

Marina Hyde (9:28)

I mean, I know it seems petty, but wait, because I do have a theory on that.

Richard Osmond (9:31)

Okay, great.

Marina Hyde (9:32)

Okay. And then in the comment section, Devil's like, well, yeah, tell us what happened with Alex Cooper and replies, how much time do you have? But again, she does not deliver.

Richard Osmond (9:41)

Loads of time.

Marina Hyde (9:41)

Yeah.

Richard Osmond (9:42)

Honestly, I just asked you the question. Yeah, let's assume I'm interested.

Marina Hyde (9:46)

I'm a person in the modern attention economy. I have apparently infinite amount of time for all this.

Richard Osmond (9:50)

That's like when you say, how are you to someone going, oh my God. I mean, how much time you got? And you go, I mean, go on. They go, oh, it doesn't matter.

Marina Hyde (9:58)

Yeah, it's very like that. All of this is like that. And Alex Cooper then posts a video saying, how much time you got? Because we could go all night. So she seems to be obliquely replying to this. And she sets her video to Circus by Britney Spears, which is a song that Alex Earl had danced to the month before on Dancing with the Stars. This is all ridiculous. Oh, my God.

Richard Osmond (10:19)

It's like a Dickens novel.

Marina Hyde (10:20)

Yeah.

Richard Osmond (10:21)

You know when you Used to serialize them chapter by chapter, and it was making up as it went along.

Marina Hyde (10:26)

Yeah, but you know, the audience. We've talked about this so much on this podcast before, this kind of sleuthing that happens that I now think it almost needs an official title. It's like open source intelligence investigations where people are trying to picture, you know, what happened in a plane crash. Did rush down the plane.

Richard Osmond (10:40)

CSI stuff. Stuff I don't care about.

Marina Hyde (10:41)

Yeah, exactly. Okay. Thank God. Finally, now we're in the present day. April 2026. Okay, a TikToker. Another Tiktoker. Remember, a whole constellation of people feed off these accounts and they make money themselves by making content about their. It's like.

Richard Osmond (10:57)

It's like brake pad manufacturers who move to Akron because that's where the cars are being made.

Marina Hyde (11:01)

Yes. Yes, it is. There's a whole community out there. A TikTok called the Bravo Mums post a video saying, alex Cooper's so awful, and I wish more people would stop making Call her daddy their first stop after something happens in their lives because she' profiting off of women's heartaches and failures. Alex. I'll repost that video.

Richard Osmond (11:18)

Alex.

Marina Hyde (11:18)

Oh, my God, Richard. So Alex Cooper now feels she has to respond. She says, I don't usually address this stuff because it feels like a waste of time challenge. And honestly, it's embarrassing to participate in this. But I'm seeing the videos, I'm getting tagged, I'm seeing the DMs. It just feels long overdue. Alex L. Hey, girl. The passive aggressive repost and the likes and commenting on things. I got to call you out here. You're going to need to get specific and say what you've got to say about me. There's no NDA. No one is stopping you. Stop hiding behind other people and just say it yourself. And she says, maybe you're using it to distract from stuff you've got going on. Unless the fake narrative you're creating happens to be way more interesting than the truth. I have nothing to hide when it comes to you and me. So unless you have something to say, I'm out. This is over. Alex replies, okay on it. She doesn't post a whole thing about it. What she does post is a video of her waking up at Coachella and being shown this post by her friends. And if you're thinking about that as a producer, you're thinking, yeah, yeah. Well, hang on a second. She says something like, you know, kudos to my friends for realizing I would want this moment on film, maybe. Anyway, she affects to be waking up at the morning after Coachella and reading this post and saying, I always think

Richard Osmond (12:28)

it's the most exposing moment in any television program when an actor is asleep and you know they're about to be woken up and it's like, how are they gonna. How are you gonna do that? I'm always. I pay such close attention to how people pretend they've just woken up. Huh? Yeah, yeah. What?

Marina Hyde (12:41)

Or any of those breakfast shows where someone has to knock on the door of someone and then there's another camera in the house. We know, we know. And you have to affect surprise. But anyway, she affects surprise and says, wow, this has made my whole day. Then there are all these other players commenting on the whole things. There's a guy from Barstool Sports called Dave Portnoy.

Richard Osmond (12:58)

Oh, yeah, I know him. Yeah, he's. Yeah.

Marina Hyde (13:01)

And then there's someone called Brianna Chicken Fry. I mean, the names are hilarious. Well, what happened to just Barry Diller when we were talking about moguls? She's called Brianna LaPaglia. I think, anyway, Brianna Chicken. I was a fan of Alex Cooper before I knew the wrath of fucking Alex Cooper and what she does to people and how she treats people.

Richard Osmond (13:21)

She's lost Brianna Chicken Fry.

Marina Hyde (13:22)

Yeah, she's lost Chicken Fry. I'm friends with Alix Earl. Alex Earl told me everything that transpired between those two. Two years ago at the Super Bowl. Didn't happen at the super bowl, but that's when she told me everything. But she won't say anything more because it's not her story to tell.

Richard Osmond (13:36)

Jesus.

Marina Hyde (13:37)

Now, at time of recording Monday morning, the very latest was that Alix Earle had posted a video of her pole dancing and said, sorry, been filming this week. Soundtrack. You don't own me. End timeline. For now, Richard. For now.

Richard Osmond (13:53)

Okay.

Marina Hyde (13:53)

The reason we had to go all through that, because you'll have got the sense from it that following all this stuff is genuinely a full time job.

Richard Osmond (13:58)

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I know what you do.

Marina Hyde (14:00)

Yeah.

Richard Osmond (14:00)

I can't believe you managed to fit in Paris this week.

Marina Hyde (14:03)

I know, I know. Sorry. This, but this, what we're really talking about is a story about how the attention economy works and, and being always on. You're keeping attention and then you're keeping the eyeballs. And effectively you are still selling them. Those products and the brand collaborations, all of that, that is a huge part of it. We have always had, obviously, scandals and feuds. We always have had. But what's changing is the entire Sort of structure and dynamic and the texture of those stories. They're driven by the platforms now and their characteristics. What we know about social media platforms is that people stay on them longer when they're angry. And that is one of the absolute fundamental. We know about that business model. And so drama and conflict is absolutely essential to all of it. But if you look at those stories and you look at the people coming in, someone's not just commenting on the story that, as we said, it's like building a hotel in the. Near a theme park. You're hoping to cream off some of the money. So when Brianna Chicken Fry, a person who. I can't believe I'm saying I know, but when Briana Chicken Fry is saying these like that she's. This is all directing traffic to her and it helps her with her brand collaborations and her with her deals, all of the subsidiaries and making money off it, too. So that old adage, you know, there's no such thing as bad publicity. This is all content. This is what their business is. This is the best content because it is making people angry or exercised or whatever, which, as we know, is what keeps them on the platform. That is a feature and not a bug. The platform is creating this kind of story in the first place. Look at how it came out. It came out by users of the platform looking at events that are staged for the platform. A Super bowl party where you're going to post all the pictures and think, hang on, why is she not there? Why didn't she like this post all of this? Everything about it is happening because of the way the platforms work and drama and conflict. Is the oil running through both these women's businesses? And I have to say, that really does keep people engaged.

Richard Osmond (16:02)

And do you think there's. Is it entirely manufactured or was there a minor disagreement in the first place that's been blown up? I mean, in terms of the reality of the thing, because it sounds like to me a minor contractual dispute. It's a business which would have been dealt with in the olden days by one meeting and, you know, a little payoff. But now they've both monetized it for a good couple of years.

Marina Hyde (16:24)

Yes, but it is sort of their whole business. Their business is them. Their business is collaborating with brands or doing deals with brands or having their own product lines. And all of that means that they're competing for the same things. And in many ways, perhaps in lots of ways, they look the same or they bring similar audiences or whatever it

Richard Osmond (16:42)

is, they've got the same Name.

Marina Hyde (16:43)

Yeah. As I've said, I do think that the platforms have completely changed the dynamics and the way these stories are uncovered. And also everyone's in interest in sort of keeping them going. As I say, that drama and that conflict is what runs the machine.

Richard Osmond (16:56)

But it's fascinating because it's sort of. If you think about the media we grew up with and the tabloids and what they would do and, you know, okay. And hello. And the feuds that would be continued, those things could go on for years. And the only people making the money were News International.

Marina Hyde (17:11)

I agree.

Richard Osmond (17:12)

Whereas now it's going on for years and the people making the money are actually the people having a round with each other. So in some ways is progress.

Marina Hyde (17:18)

Well, they own their own. You know, they own themselves and they own their own businesses.

Richard Osmond (17:21)

It's the thing I think most about this entire generation is it makes me feel so tired because I think about how hard I worked, but at least I could go home at the end of the day. But they have. They're just. That idea of always on, always on is that's not just for an audience. It's also for that person as well. I was looking, you know, I was reading a lot about Alex Cooper, who's amazing, what she's done and what she's created. And, you know, her background, her educational background was she studied film and tv. So this is like what someone in my generation or the generation after me would have done if they wanted to be in the media. She then gets a job in advertising, which, again, is the thing that would have happened in my generation or the generation after. But now there is a route through, which didn't exist till 10 years ago, where suddenly she's worth $200 million because she goes off. She can represent herself. She is herself. She can do exactly what she wants. She can sign what she wants with who she wants. And there's a huge amount of money

Marina Hyde (18:12)

out there and, you know, it's potentially worth much more. If these people that she kind of brings into her production company, into Unwell, are seen as a kind of credible umbrella group of companies that she. That she's in charge of, then she's properly a mogul, Then she's a mogul.

Richard Osmond (18:29)

Yeah.

Marina Hyde (18:30)

And then she's. Maybe she's part of this sales gold rush that we've seen.

Richard Osmond (18:33)

But as you say, the people she's bringing in are people in her image, by which I don't mean they look like her. I mean they are doing the same thing, which is they're putting Themselves out there, they're making content about themselves, which hopefully is relatable to a fairly big audience and an audience that's got money. And when I think about the, you know, the, the collapse of the industry I grew up in and, and the people who are out of work, there's more money than ever in content. It's just. Anyone who was over 40 at the time all this started happening is completely alien. If you are starting out in the industry now, it's like it, it is an absolute insane gold rush, right?

Marina Hyde (19:09)

I think so.

Richard Osmond (19:10)

But, but the rules, you know, when we're talking about this, it sounds so alien, it sounds so absurd, and yet it is. It is the content that huge amounts of people are enjoying and huge amounts of people are spending an hour or two a day on that they would have previously spent watching a ITV drama.

Marina Hyde (19:28)

I agree with that. But I also agree with it at a sort of mogul level because I've seen a lot of people saying, oh, you know, these young female founders, how typical. They've sort of descended into amateurish bitching, really. And that's very much part of their economy. You know, you can't imagine the old media moguls behaving like this. Huh, huh?

Richard Osmond (19:45)

Huh?

Marina Hyde (19:45)

Okay. What? Oh, my God. Yes you can. Let's talk about the first Trump presidency. I don't know what his routine is now. His get ready with routine is now. But let me tell you, in that first presidency, he would get into bed 6:30 with the big cheeseburger and the vat of Diet Coke with all the TVs set to, as he put it in an actual, quote, channels, talking about me. Such a get ready with me routine. And then he would chat on the phone to a carousel of billionaires, many of the media billionaires, all of whom had been given cleared caller status to the White House. They could get straight through and they would bitch all night long. There was one time when Murdoch was on the phone to him and he just had to explain to Silicon Valley billionaires didn't need Trump's help. They would sort of run the show under the last administration and Trump just didn't understand it at all. And as soon as Murdoch puts down the phone, he just rings someone else and goes, what a fucking idiot. You know, they are all bitching about each other. The thing is, they just do it in private.

Richard Osmond (20:39)

Oh, Murdoch v. Maxwell. I mean, it's all out there. But also not just doing it in private because there's lots and lots of it in public. It's just they are men. And so it's seen as somehow machinations. It's something.

Marina Hyde (20:48)

It is not female behavior. This money and gossip is all of it.

Richard Osmond (20:51)

For them, in men, it's seen as 3D chess.

Marina Hyde (20:54)

Yeah.

Richard Osmond (20:54)

Think, wow, it's amazing what they're doing, the way they're sort of moving their pieces around. But it's. I mean, of course it was.

Marina Hyde (21:01)

I completely agree with you. It is not. It is. This is not female behavior at all.

Richard Osmond (21:05)

It is not female ego or male ego. It is ego.

Marina Hyde (21:07)

Yeah. Yeah. It's money and gossip and they all mainline it and love it. I think actually even showbiz is less bitchy than being a mogul, I think.

Richard Osmond (21:16)

Well, look at the Epstein files. It's taught us many, many things, but one of them is this. A whole series of very, very high profile men who are spending a lot of their time just bitching about each other and trying to get into each other's parties.

Marina Hyde (21:26)

Yes. This is how these people, the new mogul, you know, this is how someone, I would say Alex Cooper's probably further ascended to mogul than Alex Earle is. But this is how they dominate the attention economy via this sort of behavior. Murdoch had Fox News, and that is a way of getting eyeballs. They have this and Alex Cooper has Alex Cooper. And it remains seen whether the people she brings into her stable are as good at it as she is. And Alix Earl has Alex Earle and they're doing very, very, very well off it. Thank you. I suppose my question is, can you become genuinely powerful like this in the way that the people we were talking about, those billionaires, were genuinely powerful?

Richard Osmond (22:05)

I mean, I think so. I think, you know, given that Trump can become president. And a large part of that was through what at the time we've seen this new media, which is reality TV now, we would think of as old media, there's definitely a world in which a Joe Rogan or an Alex Cooper has very big political career.

Marina Hyde (22:22)

I completely agree with that. And I think Joe Rogan's sort of doing it now and all the beef happens, all his beef, Rogan's beef happens on air and he talks about it and it's content. As I say, everything is content and your life is content.

Richard Osmond (22:34)

I mean, if you, if you have spent many, many years owning your own narrative, not necessarily controlling it because people come in and out of it, but owning your own narrative, you're sort of exposure proof, you know, that we saw the old media who will sort of bring you on and ask you questions about, you know, labor Reforms. You think there's a generation who've never heard people being questioned in that way and are not interested in it.

Marina Hyde (22:57)

And the nature of that, owning your own narrative is being sort of post shame. You just get up tomorrow and you live stream all over again. And it's interesting, someone I noticed, God, I was reading something this morning that Taylor, Frankie Paul, who we were talking about from Secret Life and Mormon Wives and the canceled season of the Bachelorette, has completely come out and said, I'm going to show you all of my combat. There is no sense that you just be like, oh my God, I've been driven off social media. Delete your account. Delete your account. Like, who deletes their account nowadays? Nobody deletes their account. That already feels like something from a decade ago. You just, this is great. It's all engagement and you just turn it into something else. And if you are always on, as all these people we've been talking about are, it doesn't really matter. It just ends up being something that is content, that draws more eyeballs, and that's all you need because you can sell them products. It's just money. And I think that's something quite odd. And as I say, it is entirely dictated by the platforms and it's changed the nature of what we even consider to be anything detrimental, you know, a feud that in the old days, I mean, Betty Davis and Joan Crawford didn't want their feuds necessarily in the newspapers. They didn't mind if they'd said something really brilliant and bitchy. But one thing they didn't, you know, you don't want the ongoing background to your whole life to be be people talking about this, except unless you do. And I think that's what's changed that everything is driven by these platforms and everything is plowed back into them and then even more dividends are paid out by them the more there is.

Richard Osmond (24:29)

And it's, you know, the one thing that's at the heart of this as well, which is why it's so often it's overlooked, is these are not people with a particular job. So these are not actors or sports people who actually go, you know what? I'm going to go and make some money and do my job. Now this, this is a, their job 24 hours a day, and B, the

Marina Hyde (24:46)

only thing that makes them money creator is a job.

Richard Osmond (24:48)

But it's, it's exactly the same as if you're Reaper Murdoch. Yeah, I mean, it's the same thing. It's, you know, you're using Your force of personality and your opinions to get one over on other people and to move the chess pieces around. I mean it's the, it's the same gig, right. And so it never sits right with me because I didn't grow up with it. But if you're born into a generation where you absolutely natively understand TikTok and all of these things, then what else would you do? Because you can make $200 million in 10 years if your head is screwed on. You know, that's the thing that you can do. That's what Murdoch would be doing if he was 20.

Marina Hyde (25:21)

I mean that's because the thought of a live stream.

Richard Osmond (25:24)

But he does have an incredible buffet. He is a messy bitch.

Marina Hyde (25:27)

Oh my God.

Richard Osmond (25:28)

I mean the single messy bitch.

Marina Hyde (25:30)

A couple of years ago he was engaged twice in one year and he's like 92. If you imagine Taylor, Frankie, Paul could never.

Richard Osmond (25:36)

Yeah. If you imagine Rupert Murdoch was a 23 year old old woman and then

Marina Hyde (25:41)

she's gonna give me a bad dream and then.

Richard Osmond (25:42)

But then show the series of things that happened to him. The relationships he was in and then got out of and what he did and how he got out of them. The things he bought and the things he sold and how he was to. You would just think this is the, this is the messiest job just so

Marina Hyde (25:53)

I can follow it.

Richard Osmond (25:54)

But no, he's, he's do my degree in that. Yeah. Imagine Rupert Murdoch as a, as a 23 year old influencer.

Marina Hyde (26:00)

Now will be all day anyway, I

Richard Osmond (26:02)

can exclusive reveal because people wonder which side I'm on in this. I am hashtag Team Alex.

Marina Hyde (26:09)

I'm just here for the drama.

Richard Osmond (26:11)

But it also reminds me absolutely of boxers.

Marina Hyde (26:14)

Yes.

Richard Osmond (26:14)

And boxers will do this thing of saying, oh my God, I'm gonna knock you out. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna kill your family, all this stuff. And then after is they're going, you know, what a fighter, he's a great fighter. But the whole, you know, Tyson Fury versus Anthony Joshua, I mean they have strung that out for such an incredibly long time. I mean insanely enemies.

Marina Hyde (26:32)

Yeah, you do, you never don't.

Richard Osmond (26:33)

It's literally that's all you do. And now they're gonna fight each other and it's way, way too late. But everyone's still gonna watch and they're gonna make hundreds of millions. But again they're men. So it's seen as it's all in the game. Yeah, but it isn't it. Boxing was boxing sort of understood social media. Hype before pretty much anything. Boxing and porn, they're always ahead of the game. Shall we go to a break? We've got more messy pitches.

Marina Hyde (26:54)

Yeah.

Richard Osmond (26:54)

After the break. Starting with Michael Jackson.

Marina Hyde (26:56)

It's messy bitch week.

Richard Osmond (26:57)

Yeah, isn't it just? See you in a mo.

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Richard Osmond (28:24)

Welcome back, everybody. Marina. This week new movie opens. It's called Michael. It's about Michael, not Barrymore, but Jackson.

Marina Hyde (28:34)

Jackson. Listeners to the podcast have heard us talking about this one before, but it's imminent and it's going to be, as you say, released this week. It's made by Lionsgate. It is tracking to open enormously. I think I said that in my sort of preview of the year. I thought it would do really well. It's maybe it will get to 75 million in the US and 200 million globally. Interestingly, more globally, which is always interesting with these kind of things because he's got a big fan base around the world. But if they did get. I can't remember what Bohemian Rhapsody got.

Richard Osmond (29:04)

Bohemian Rhapsody opened to $51 million, which was huge. The biggest ever biopic or music biopic was Straight outta Compton, the NWA one, which was 60 million. I think it's gonna beat both of those. So I think it's about a $50 million budget as well. Bohemian Rhapsody. And this is the same guy, right? Same producer.

Marina Hyde (29:22)

They spent just over $150 million on this, but the budget has since increased to 170 because a number of reshoots were required, which we'll get. Bohemian Rhapsody, don't forget. That was a very troubled production. All sorts of things happened there. They had Sasha Baron Combe as the lead, and he left. And then Bryan Singer had to be removed from motion picture. In light of various. He was the director.

Richard Osmond (29:44)

I love Bohemian Rhapsody.

Marina Hyde (29:46)

I know.

Richard Osmond (29:46)

I know some. And also, if my view of that film is this, if. If you see that film as the John Deacon story, it's the greatest film ever made because it's just like this electrician who plays the drums and it's just, oh, my God, what's happening now? And if you see it through, through the eyes of John Deacon, it's.

Marina Hyde (30:04)

It will win every good film.

Richard Osmond (30:06)

I think it's a great film. I really enjoy. Yeah. I really, really. Yeah. Do you not? No, I like it when, you know, they go. Jack walks in and Ray Charles says, hit the road, Jack. And then turns to his piano. Yes, please.

Marina Hyde (30:19)

Okay, let's return to Michael, which I think is a film we can both agree is more. Has a more complicated story to it. Okay. But it's. It's got a. Anton Fakwa, who directed Training Day. He's the director, written by John Logan, who did Gladiator, did the Aviator. So they've got good people in it and good people in it. Colman Domingo plays Joe Jackson, Michael's father, one of the great entertainment monsters, Miles Teller, Near Long. And the estate of Michael Jackson is amongst the producers, which is quite what. They kept the sort of most important point of the film, I guess, under wraps for a long time with these teaser trailers, which is the performance of Jafar Jackson. Can you believe he's called Jafar the nephew? I think he's Jermaine's son, who is playing Michael. So by way of background, I mean, we know why we're talking about this film, because obviously Michael Jackson was beset by child abuse allegations. He was cleared of some. There are ongoing cases against the estate and. But that estate has proved incredibly resistant to those allegations. He's the 27th biggest artist on Spotify. There's a Cirque du Soleil show all about, you know, based on the music thriller Live was very, very successful. And it gave way to mj, the musical, which is also huge, which is massive across many countries. And there's a new one opening in the West End quite soon, actually called can you feel it?

Richard Osmond (31:50)

So is that the third Michael Jackson music.

Marina Hyde (31:53)

Yeah. In not very many years.

Richard Osmond (31:55)

That's amazing.

Marina Hyde (31:56)

And anyway, the director, Anton Farquhar said, we're going to show the good, the bad and the ugly. And Graham King, the producer, said, we're going to humanize but not sanitize. And Colman Domingo said, you know, I think it's actually just trying to give a great examination of an artist. What made the artist, who he is, what makes him complicated for you to leave with your own answers. Okay, right. Can I just say, I think something really interesting is going on with Colman Domingo because he has not said anything about this film. I saw the Hot Ones. He did, and he literally mentioned the date of the film. That's it. He did. He hosted SNL in the US a couple of weeks ago and just did not mention the film. You're booked because you're promoting the film. So something. I don't know whether he thought, I'm just going to play one of the great entertainment monsters, as I've just said, and then thought, hang on a second, I didn't quite realize what I was getting into here because it's become. It's very, very controversial. And it's interesting what has happened with this script because a version of the script leaked and it's been all over the place. Place. Not a stolen document, but a leaked document, but they have summarized it, which was that the original film, as everyone signed on to, started with the Raid on Neverland, when Michael Jackson is photographed and is forced to have his genital area photographed because Geordie Chandler, who was this kid who made these allegations against him, had been made to do a drawing of distinguishing marks. And they opened with that scene, which is quite certainly out there.

Richard Osmond (33:25)

Well, but also, by the way, if you're a Colman Domingo or John Logan, you're like, oh, okay, this is. We're gonna do this seriously and take it seriously, you know, that I would believe suddenly, oh, this isn't just gonna be some sort of whitewash.

Marina Hyde (33:37)

That original script says that the drawing and the photograph don't match. They haven't gone with that. Now, the film that you're going to see is something different because completely unfathomably, as I say, the estate are a producer on this, and the estate are absolutely kind of rep in how much money they want to make and how much control they have. But they were responsible for a sort of unbelievable mistake where they didn't realize that the settlement with Geordie Chandler all those years ago said that he could never be depicted in a film or Whatever. And I think that Act 3 of this film was all about. This was all about the allegations. So they had to pay for the personally, the estate had to fork out the 15 million or whatever it cost for the reshoots. The movie that you are going to see, if you are going to see it now covers Michael Jackson's rise from being in the Jackson 5. Band member, family member with all that dreadful family to solo artists. And it climaxes with the bad tour in 1988. So all I would say is it's a hell of a sequel. If they do one, it was going

Richard Osmond (34:39)

to end with bad either way.

Marina Hyde (34:41)

Yeah.

Richard Osmond (34:41)

But they're talking already about this becoming the Michael Jackson universe and you know, they will do future films for other albums and other eras which, you know, sort of makes sense. But yeah, very, very different to. To the original project as pitched.

Marina Hyde (34:58)

Yeah. And it's interesting which family members are involved. Obviously Jermaine is involved and Jafar is in it.

Richard Osmond (35:05)

Jafar's very involved.

Marina Hyde (35:06)

Yeah. Java's very involved. But Janet Jackson won't speak about it and is. It's not clear what's happened there, but I don't know whether she's not in it at all. She's not. She's not depicted Paris, that one of his three children, you remember there's Prince, Paris and now called bg, but formerly Blanket. We know him as the crowd surfing baby. And she said it was sugar coated and she doesn't. She's not into it yet. She didn't turn up to the premier or screening, whatever they've just had of it, but the other two children did. So it's all sorts of different kind of views on it. But we have to say that there is still, still more than one case against the estate accusing Jackson of child abuse. I mean, as I've said before many times, I believe, you know, he was a predatory pedophile. It's just look at the evidence. We know, we know how these things work. It's always boys, they're all about the same age. This is. If he was really. Where are all the girls? Why was there not a sort of multi opportunity? Everyone can share a bedroom with this man with an alarmed bedroom. But Wade Robson and James Safechuck, who were the two subjects of Leaving Neverland, that documentary, which is brilliant documentary on hbo, their case is still and is constantly being given leave to proceed and they're still involved with all the discovery. You know how long the American legal system takes.

Richard Osmond (36:27)

There's something in that, the loss of shame in this is as well, which is everyone just seems able to go, look, we're going to make a huge amount of money out of, of this. You know, let's just keep pushing it and pushing and pushing it. And it does. If you're Janet Jackson or various other members of the family, you must just, just think that I loved my brother, but I recognize that, that you know, there are things that happened in his life that I'm not comfortable with. And so, you know, I don't want to be part of this billion dollar industry, but, you know, and I'm not

Marina Hyde (36:55)

getting any money off it. In her case. Yeah, you know, I'm, I'm fine with separating the artist. I don't think people should never listen to Michael Jackson, whatever. I, even, even though other people do have a different view on that sort of thing. But when a sort of hagiography just tips over into complete image laundering, as we might say has happened here, I guess what they've done is leave such a sort of, they've left it open to say, oh well, we'll cover all that in a sequel or we'll cover, you know, it would be quite difficult to be the writer of that sequel, I must say. But if they don't do that, they will do a sequel because it's obviously going to do so well. But if it continues to stay tipping into really quite toxic image laundering, then I think when there are victims and alleged victims still out there and their case is still rumbling through, I find that pretty difficult. And it's a very complicated thing this, because they haven't made the movie they said they were going to make. They now no longer answer questions on that first script because they're saying, oh, it's a, you know, this is nothing that's been, it wasn't produced. This is just talking about an earlier draft of something. And I think it's interesting just how as you say, the sort of post shame thing that how many people will turn out to see it. And as I say, there's nothing wrong with going to see a movie about Michael Jackson if it were an honest thing. But they have certainly set up a hell of a sequel. I would say that now a question

Richard Osmond (38:20)

for you, but it's also a question for people listening as well. Will you go and see it?

Marina Hyde (38:24)

Yeah, I will see it because I've seen lots of things. It's a big newsy thing and I want to see exactly how they've done it. I don't think I can talk properly about it unless I have seen it and I will want to probably talk some more about it as time goes on. So yes, I will see it. And anyway, I would listen to Michael Jackson music and I know that some people find that appalling. But yes, I don't have a sort of problem with that. But I think you have to be realistic about what you're doing.

Richard Osmond (38:50)

Can we, as a lovely palate cleanser, talk about Binky film?

Marina Hyde (38:54)

It involves cake. Yes, this is Binky Felstead. This is. She's a, as I said, a sort of second tier original made in Chelsea

Richard Osmond (39:02)

star name in a PG Wodehouse novel.

Marina Hyde (39:04)

Yes. I mean honestly, she's now an influencer and she's in a sort of living after Maiden Chelsea spin off. If you look at her social media, she's one of those many people who is always on a free holiday. The furniture in our house is paid for everything. It's all the life is. She's got three small children and it's all kind of paid for content. Anyway, she asked for a cake for one of her children's birthdays from a baker called Ange Desuc. Actually one of our next door neighbors once had a cake from this place paid for and it was absolutely delicious because I had a piece anyway.

Richard Osmond (39:43)

Are you. No, non. Sponsored. No, no, because you're an idiot. Because you could have, you could have

Marina Hyde (39:48)

got a lot of money. I could have, I could have maxed that. Yeah, it was beautiful, this thing and it tasted delicious anyway. But they're a small business and Binky Falstad's team, we'll discuss what we think that actually involves. Got in touch and said could she have a cake in exchange for exposure. Now, it made a mistake going to this particular baker, she's called Rashmi Bennett and she's been quite vocal in the past about calling out this sort of thing. She completely called it out, posted some of the screenshots of sort of, you know, the begging letter for the cake. She made a Satir go fund me page saying, can we all put club together so that this person off Made in Chelsea can get a cape for her son's birthday. The problem with this is that there's a reason for this, is that this has happened so many times to this baker before. She was once asked to make 250 macarons and she boxed them and she had to individually box them. She was told that, you know, she'd get photos. No photos happened. Completely ghosted. So you provide this stuff for free and then sometimes people just don't fulfill their half of the Bargain. She's been sort of blackmailed by a blogger who asked for free stuff and then when she didn't give it, the person came outside, bought one macaroon, said, oh, it's disgusting. Avoid this shop. So her point of it about it all, Rashmi Bennett, is that the economics of this very rarely work and the evidence of sales just isn't really there. That okay, because your, your cake has been featured in a celebrity's birthday party thing, this is going to be. The floodgates of business are about to open and all this money's gonna flow towards you. She sort of says, I do it as a warning to others.

Richard Osmond (41:21)

Yeah. And also this is Binky Foster. It's not Tom Cruise.

Marina Hyde (41:24)

No, it's not. Who famously gives many people cakes, which I assume he pays for. Anyway, she wrote back to Binky's rep and she said the optics are terrible. A rich maid in Chelsea star gets a cake for free from a small family run business. What would have made an incredible piece of press was if Binky had paid full price for a cake. And I posted about how an influencer actually paid for their cake. Now the rep has had to do clean up on it. By the way, this has really kicked off. And this is because, as we keep saying, influencers are becoming like the most hated job. Even worse than journalists and estate agents and maybe even serial killers. And the rep says, you know, this happens all the time. This is a normal thing to do. But the perception is that they ask for absolutely everything at the influencers. And there are also a growing number of people who will just say they're an influencer, you know, sort of. I have 700 followers. Please can you give me a spa weekend? I mean, I just, it's. And actually fielding the sheer volume of requests. I've talked to quite a lot of people about this and they say, sometimes they say fielding requests is a job in itself because you get so many and they come into your places of work and say, I want to film. Now, dealing with all of this, I mean, you've seen lots of people say in restaurants we're gonna have to ban people with cameras because they're, you know, standing there taking up all the space in restaurant filming. And it's just becoming ridiculous.

Richard Osmond (42:42)

People in gyms constantly filming, which is, you mustn't film in gyms. But yeah, it's, it's sort of non stop.

Marina Hyde (42:49)

It's all the time.

Richard Osmond (42:50)

Because influence is one of those self defined jobs.

Marina Hyde (42:53)

Yes.

Richard Osmond (42:53)

Where you can say I'm an influencer. You go okay, let's talk through how and why you're an influencer. Take me through the profit and loss in your last year of who you've influenced and how.

Marina Hyde (43:03)

I agree, are they influencing? Which is what this baker is sort of saying. Now. It was quite interesting in terms of this whole round. It's really blown up and she's done other things before and she does give the appearance of having, you know, everything else, everything paid for, but the numbers were quite interesting. So, you know, people are saying, oh, you'd expect. I would actually even expect something to be given to me. And then I would ask to be paid for the post. Two thousand, five thousand pounds. And, you know, the answer is we're paying you with exposure, which again, these businesses don't really feel they're getting. You are supposed to say, when any of this has happened on the bottom of the post, I'm gifted or sponsored or ad. It's so interesting. They so rarely do and yet it's happening all the time. And it's very, very difficult to police. I would have said, I mean, what is the policing? It's like a phone ringing on the Meta campus somewhere. I mean, no, nobody is policing and saying, why didn't you put gifted on your post? You and I have said about a million times, celebrities just pay for your own stuff. It is so much easier. Just don't. You don't have to cameras in. You can just. Just pay for your own things. Having said, said that this is her entire job. And actually it's bizarre. She lives in a. Almost like an ancient system of barter. When you think that the house is fully furnished by a company that I won't bother naming. The holidays are paid for. All the things that you might spend money on are sort of being given to you and you're giving exposure, but that's it. You're not actually being paid for a lot of this, but it's buying you things in your life. And I, you know, I talk about that illusion of a team. I often think that. I think she. You almost always have a publicist if you're someone with her level of followers.

Richard Osmond (44:46)

But that publicist would work for lots of different people. Would it be your own personal publicist? No.

Marina Hyde (44:50)

Would that work for many different people? And all people like you?

Richard Osmond (44:54)

So it's like saying that my news agent. But I'm very aware that my news agent also sells newspapers to other people. Yes, yes.

Marina Hyde (45:00)

And it's mainly, I sometimes think when they're talking about a team, it's sort of just you chatgpt and a shared publicist. But when I explain that thing about, you know, every single thing in the life being paid for, the clothes, the holidays, the things in the house, probably quite a lot of the food, you see the precariousness of it. This is really bad, this row for her because she's now less desirable as a person because people think she's a grifter and she gets everything paid for. She just went, really? I heard she was on a holiday last week when this all happened. So she will return to understanding that her stock has gone right down and that is the precariousness of all of these things. Again, we're talking about the platforms, but it's true. There's another Made In Chelsea star original cast, a guy called Ollie Locke, who's in some big drama at the moment that he didn't pay the rent on his house, him and his husband, and I don't know, I'm not even going to get into the details of that one. What I will say is he tried to explain that his, you know, it's hard to run your influencer income and money come, you know, I've mismanaged things, etc. But he did it by giving a tearful interview saying, I'm having a sort of breakdown. And I just thought, don't do that. I'm so sorry. You look a mess now and people don't want to give free things to messes. And this is your whole business, I'm so sorry to say, but this is the precariousness of the life that if it requires you to seem happy and breezy and aspirational and if you seem like a grifter, then less, then fewer people are going to want to give you things.

Richard Osmond (46:23)

Well, we like it when people earn their living, I think.

Marina Hyde (46:25)

Well, yeah, but. And the language now being used to describe to people is like, oh, you're in a house you didn't pay for, you get free stuff. These people don't work while you do. This is exactly the same accusations that they would level against what they perceive to be fake asylum seekers, like in

Richard Osmond (46:43)

the public mind and body, by the way, lots of them are living abroad and paying no tax. So, I mean, so what is it that you think you're contributing to anybody. Yeah. Or anything. And also, this is not all influences, we know that and there. And it's certainly not all that, you know, lots and lots of people will tell you things are brilliant on social media and for good reasons, but there is a subclass of people and it's nice to see them get caught out every now and again. Do you know what? Here's the basic rule of thumb. Pay for your child's birthday cake.

Marina Hyde (47:12)

It's so basic.

Richard Osmond (47:13)

And if you find someone in life who cannot afford to pay for their child's birthday cake, why don't you pay for one of theirs as well? That's what you should be doing. That's what you should be doing with your life and with your money is looking after other people, not trying to just sort of get more and more things and putting your arms around things and bringing cakes into your house.

Marina Hyde (47:32)

Well, Roshmi Bennet, that baker, not that long ago, she created a really clever cake, a watermelon cake, and she gave a percentage of all the sales to save the Children's Gaza appeal. And an influencer just got in touch and said, can I have one for my birthday for free? Please? Like, okay, this cake particularly. No, but again, the whole. There is. The backlash is definitely real. And you see people, it's such a huge. The takedown industry is becoming worth a lot of money and the perception that people are against the backdrop of a cost of living crisis are, are, you know, getting free luxuries, are doing. Are not working or getting everything given to them when you don't have to is. Is extraordinary. And the mapping onto it of areas of the immigration debate or anything else is actually slightly wild. But I would definitely say that it is a very precarious situation because once you don't seem desirable or you've been involved in some sort of backlash like this, then very many fewer people want to give you anything.

Richard Osmond (48:35)

Yeah. And then you can have to steal a cake and then, yeah, that's gonna be your only option left because you're not gonna be able to afford one

Marina Hyde (48:42)

and do a tearful interview about it.

Richard Osmond (48:44)

Yeah. Three tiers, I'd say. If there's a lesson from today's show, it's about the death of shame, isn't it?

Marina Hyde (48:51)

Yeah, yeah. I have a moral at the end of every episode.

Richard Osmond (48:54)

Oh, my God, we should do that. Any recommendations?

Marina Hyde (48:57)

Well, mine is a great show, but when we were in Paris, we had one TV channel that we could watch in English and It was being BBC1. Great. My daughter, who is 11, ended up therefore watching when. When we got back from the day, you know, a few. Lots of shows that she wouldn't normally see because although she watches Iplay, she doesn't see the schedule. And she was like, I love the show Country File. I was like, sorry, what it's really good. It's really interesting. I was like, yeah, country, by the way, it's one of the biggest shows on tv, which is something that a lot of people don't realize. If you told them that, they wouldn't necessarily realize, but it's absolutely enormous. And yeah, I would like to recommend the BBC one scheduled television show, Country File.

Richard Osmond (49:39)

You know, they're, they're not fashionable, but they're just so. They're still beautifully made and still get numbers that if you put them on social media would be like beyond enormous. You know, if you had the sort of numbers that countryphile gets week in, week out, the size of cake you could get for free is beyond enormous.

Marina Hyde (49:57)

It would be larger than our country. It would be enormous. Enormous.

Richard Osmond (50:00)

I am going to recommend, actually, I'll recommend, because I mentioned it at the start, the new season of the Parisian Agency. I recommended it before, but this new season is back and it's just the houses are unbelievable. But it's also, it's, it's just about that quite extraordinary family, I'll have to say, and the things that happened to them. And, you know, even if you don't really love property shows, that's. That's the one. And it feels slightly realer than a lot of those things as well. So a of lot lover. Lance Parisienne.

Marina Hyde (50:29)

Right. That about finishes us for today. We will be back on Thursday with the questions and answers.

Richard Osmond (50:34)

And can I, can I just say before that, because on last week's question and answer thing, I was talking about getting Bill Paxton and Bill Pullman mixed up. And I said to people, are there any actors you get mixed up? The response to that has been so insane. And we'll, we'll go through Bigger than Bookshelves. It is bigger than. It's officially bigger than Bookshelves. So we will go through some of the celebrities and actors who people always thought was the other person on Thursday.

Marina Hyde (50:58)

I'm dying for that. And then on Friday, for our members, we have the final part of our Spice Girls epic. I will miss that when it's gone. But other than that, we'll see you on Thursday.

Richard Osmond (51:08)

See you on Thursday.