The Harry Styles Conspiracy

Summary

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The Rest Is Entertainment

Episode: The Harry Styles Conspiracy

Richard Osman & Marina Hyde
Date: March 10, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Richard Osman and Marina Hyde dive into two main arenas: a deep look at the history and meaning of British chat shows, inspired by the launch of Claudia Winkleman's new chat show; and an insider dissection of Harry Styles’ new album and the wild world of modern fandom, including persistent conspiracies around his persona and music. From television trends to pop culture rabbit holes, (with side trips into music charts geekery), this episode offers both wit and sharp analysis of what’s shaping entertainment right now.

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Main Topics & Discussion Points

1. Claudia Winkleman's New Chat Show & The Evolution of UK Chat Shows

[02:50 – 29:38]

The New Launch: Claudia Winkleman’s Chat Show

• Claudia Winkleman’s new chat show set to premiere Friday, BBC1. Produced by the team behind Graham Norton.
• Historic significance: Claudia is now “officially the highest rating presenter on British TV,” usurping Ant & Dec’s 25-year reign. (15:06)
• Gender dynamics: While not the first woman to host, a high-profile solo female chat show remains historic.
• Claudia's career: 34 years on TV before getting her own high-profile show; her “relatability” and willingness to take on diverse gigs and “lesser” jobs cited as key.

Notable Quotes:

• “She’s on TV for 34 years before she became the biggest rating presenter on British television.” – Richard [16:27]
• “When Claudia walks into a room and says, ‘I’d like to do a chat show,’ they say yes.” – Richard [15:59]
• “But it is historic, a woman doing it, I have to say, because it’s a high profile one.” – Marina [23:04]

The British Chat Show Landscape

• British chat show history: They're rare compared to US mainstays; most attempts flop.
• The golden age: Michael Parkinson, Wogan – moments like David Icke’s infamous “Son of God” episode remembered.
• The uniquely British dilemma: Panel shows do better in ratings; chat shows are a commissioner's risk.

Notable Moment:

• Anecdote about Des O’Connor’s infamous live episode, with Stan Boardman’s “Fockers” joke and Oliver Reed’s unfiltered live TV moment. [09:13-10:13]

Why Do Celebrities Want Chat Shows?

• They appear human and interested in people, but the host is usually the real star.
• Commissioners, however, are wary: “Nobody who has any money in television wants to spend it on a chat show. No one.” – Richard [25:50]
• The rise of YouTube and social media: “Segments get chopped up and put online; that’s what matters now.” [13:25-14:05]

Claudia’s Career Path & Industry Observations

• Claudia’s unique route: From “holiday program” and BBC3 formats (“Three’s a Crowd”) to companion shows, then Strictly, The Traitors, and more.
• Only now—“with the right person, the right moment”—do channels gamble on such a show, with hopes high for her success.
• Failure is always possible: “Almost all TV fails, but this one has my fingers crossed.” – Richard [29:09]

Claudia’s First-Episode Lineup & Format

• Guests: Jeff Goldblum (with the Mildred Schnitzer Orchestra), Vanessa Williams, Jennifer Saunders, and Tom Allen.
• Production details: Pre-recorded, interactive, audience encouraged to dress up for a “big night vibe.” [24:49]
• Key: Success will hinge on inventive production, not just guests’ star power.

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2. Harry Styles, His New Album, and the Fandom Conspiracy Machine

[31:28 – 45:57]

Harry Styles’ New Music, Stardom, & Promotional Approach

• New album: “Kiss. All the Time Disco, Occasionally.” [31:53]
• Critical view: Lyrics are “gibberish” and impenetrable as fame makes self-mythologizing inevitable.
• Modern music promotion: Harry opts for residencies (12 nights at Wembley, 30 at Madison Square Garden), not touring extensively—seen both as a power move and risky for fans. Ticket prices are “very, very expensive,” putting inclusivity in question. [42:05-45:20]

Notable Quotes:

• “There is a point at this stage in an artist’s life where they can kind of only write music about being an international pop star.” – Marina [34:56]
• “You have to show your loyalty to me... by paying that much money? Well, that’s how big I am.” – Richard [44:15]

The “Harry Styles Conspiracy” and Fandom Subcultures

• Management myths: Conspiracy that the Azoff family “curates Harry Styles’ entire life.” Fans believe aspects of his life—love, children—are staged, not real.
• Larry Stylinson: The theory that Harry and Louis Tomlinson were/are secretly together, with Rainbow Bondage Bears providing “coded messages.” [36:42-38:02]
• Marina & Richard marvel at depth and tenacity of these fandom conspiracies, reflecting on how internet culture and shipping have evolved.

Memorable Exchange:

• “If I was having a secret gay affair with a bandmate... I would go, do you know what? Teddy bears.” – Richard [37:47]
• “Modern fandom has been incredibly creatively destructive... you can’t say anything now.” – Marina [39:22]

The Toll of Extreme Fandom on Artistic Creation

• Harry says little about his private life; lyrics are intentionally vague to avoid over-interpretation.
• “Modern fandom... has been incredibly creatively destructive. You can’t say anything now.” – Marina [39:22]
• Comparison to Taylor Swift: She writes relatable, directly referential songs, but Harry tends toward obscurity, perhaps for self-protection.
• Gender observations: A “sisterhood” among major female artists formed by shared experience of obsessive fandom; no such camaraderie among top male stars. [40:02]

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3. Music Charts: The Mechanics and the Cultural Malaise

[46:05 – 54:29]

Why the UK’s Most-Sold Song Isn’t Number One

• Richard dives into chart arcana: Main point—Olivia Dean’s “Man I Need” remains the UK’s best-selling song this year but never hit #1 due to chart mechanics (ACR – Accelerated Chart Ratio, which penalizes older tracks with declining sales by devaluing streams). [47:37]
• “19 songs in the Top 100 have been there for over a year”—including Mr. Brightside (495 weeks), underlining a sense of cultural stasis. [49:45]
• Continues the cultural inertia theme: Music, like Hollywood films, feels slower to cycle than before; pop songs linger much longer in the mainstream.

Notable Quotes:

• “The charts are not what they were. That’s why you don’t have Top of the Pops anymore, because it’s the same songs week after week.” – Richard [50:22]
• “You definitely feel it in video games, visual art, Hollywood films—no.” – Marina, on where the “shock of the new” is found in culture versus pop [52:01]

Chart Trivia

• Streaming ratios: 100 streams = 1 sale (standard); 200 after 10 weeks and three weeks of declining sales (ACR).
• Only three songs per artist allowed in the Top 10; otherwise, an album launch would dominate the chart.
• “We live in a golden age of pop music, though perhaps not of cool young bands in small venues.” – Richard [53:36]

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Notable Quotes & Most Memorable Moments

• On Claudia’s TV Longevity:
  “She’s on TV for 34 years before she became the biggest rating presenter on British television.” – Richard [16:27]

• On Chat Show Economics:
  “Nobody who has any money in television wants to spend it on a chat show. No one.” – Richard [25:50]

• On Making Art as a Massive Star:
  “There is a point at this stage in an artist’s life where they can kind of only write music about being an international pop star.” – Marina [34:56]

• On Conspiracy Rabbit Holes:
  “If I was having a secret gay affair with a bandmate and I wasn’t supposed to say, but people had got it, I would go, do you know what? Teddy bears... Rainbow. But also Bondage. Yeah, that should—that should let them know.” – Richard [37:47–37:59]

• On Chart Geekery and Cultural Inertia:
  “19 songs in the Top 100 have been there for over a year... Mr. Brightside has been in the chart for 495 weeks. But without ACR these things would be even higher.” – Richard [49:45]

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Recommendations

[54:29 – End]

• Literary:
  “Look What You Made Me Do” by John Lanchester.
  – “Black comedy about intergenerational resentment and loathing—Boomers vs. Millennials. Funny, really good.” – Marina [54:30]

• TV:

• Alan and Amanda’s Greek Adventure – Alan Carr & Amanda Holden’s home reno show (iPlayer)

• Banjo and Ro’s Grand Island Hotel – Couple do up a hotel on the Isle of Ulva, Scotland. “Charming look at island life.” – Richard [55:19]

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Key Timestamps

• Claudia Winkleman Chat Show Discussion: 02:50 – 29:38
• Harry Styles & Fandom Conspiracies: 31:28 – 45:57
• Music Charts Mechanisms Explained: 46:05 – 54:29
• Recommendations: 54:29 – 56:34

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Tone & Style:

• Witty, conversational, self-deprecating—frequent asides and cultural references
• Mix of nostalgia, industry insider savvy, and mild exasperation at modern pop culture excesses and chart weirdness.

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This episode, “The Harry Styles Conspiracy,” spotlights both the enduring appeal (and rarity) of UK chat shows and the surreal, convoluted nature of modern pop stardom—with a deep, funny, and revealing look behind the scenes of British TV and pop fandom.

Transcript

[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

I was trying to think in tv, who everyone likes.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, Attenborough, in movies, Julia, Meryl, these, you. You will not hear a bad word said about any of those people. There are actually very few that no one is rude about behind their back, but those two, certainly two of them.

[Richard Osman]

Can I tell you about a company that no one is rude about behind their back and that people admire? Would it shock you to learn it is our friends at Octopus Energy? Octopus Energy has ended up being named Britain's Most admired company. 2025.

[Marina Hyde]

That's nice.

[Richard Osman]

That's really nice, isn't it?

[Marina Hyde]

I'm sure companies are like Hollywood, just absolutely vicious behind each other's backs. But to be. To actually be elected most admired, all

[Richard Osman]

the other companies, like there's, you know, all the other companies just sitting around going. So I tell you who I met the other day. Octopus Energy. Actually, you know what, lovely bunch. Really, really lovely bunch. All of them. The most admired company in the UK 2025. Which is why we're very, very happy that they are our sponsors.

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina

[Richard Osman]

Hyde and me, Richard Osman. Hello, Marina.

[Marina Hyde]

Hello, Richard. How are you?

[Richard Osman]

I'm all right. You sound so echoey. Why? Why is that?

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, you might have noticed we're in the big studio today, Rachel.

[Richard Osman]

Like grown ups.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, we are. We've been allowed in. The lights are extremely bright.

[Richard Osman]

We're not allowed to touch anything. No, quite right. Just in case Alastair Campbell comes in and loses his temper, he'd go, why is my microphone 4 millimeters to the left.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. We can't allow that to happen, particularly in this time of national peril.

[Richard Osman]

Yes. In which he is a very important figure.

[Marina Hyde]

Absolutely. Inch pimp.

[Richard Osman]

Thank you for your service.

[Marina Hyde]

Thank you for your service. Now, what are we talking about today?

[Richard Osman]

We are talking about Claudia Winkelmann's new chat show starts on this Friday. So we know Graham Norton's chat show has been on for a long time. They are now buttressing that with a new Claudia chat show. We're going to talk a little bit about the history of chat shows on British tv, why they exist, who wants them. But also we're going to talk about the fact that Claudia Winkelman, I think, has ended Anton Tech's 25 year reign as the biggest, biggest rating presenter on British television. And how she did it.

[Marina Hyde]

Excellent. We're also going to talk about. He's got a new album out. Harry Styles. The man, the myth, the music.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, he's very much the Alistair Campbell of One Direction.

[Marina Hyde]

Leave it now.

[Richard Osman]

Yes, he was the Rory Stewart. He was the Robert Peston of One Direction.

[Marina Hyde]

Please. No, we're gonna talk about what it means to be that famous and how you even end up making music about that.

[Richard Osman]

And he's gonna be. His album will be number one next week. So I'm gonna also talk a little bit about strange reasons. I said I was going to talk about it last week and we didn't. About why the biggest selling single in Britain all this year has not been number one at all. Why that is. It's, it's quite geeky, but you've got a little kind of starter of Harry Styles to. You can listen to Harry Styles bit and turn off and then I'll do the video.

[Marina Hyde]

Don't tell people to turn off the show.

[Richard Osman]

Why, that's okay. But people these days take that as a challenge. So go. No, I'm not turning, I'm not turning off. You think I'm going to turn off Claudia? Yes, Claudia. Claudia wouldn't come on. Her chat show starts 1040 on Friday night on BBC1. Made by the same team that makes Graham Norton.

[Marina Hyde]

So television.

[Richard Osman]

So television. They have already recorded the first one. The wires are saying it was terrific. She's terrific. There's lots of audience participation in it and all sorts of things. And it's a question of whether this is a. Do we need another chat show? I would say yes, we probably do. Should it be Claudia? I would say I don't know who else it would be. So, yeah, we just want to talk A little bit about. Do you want to talk a little bit about chat shows? And then I'll talk a bit about. I'll talk a little about the rise and rise of Claudia Wenkerman.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. And it's amazing because, well, you'll see it's very, very historic that a woman is getting a chat show. She's not the first woman, but we'll end up talking about those. But we've had chat shows that. In fact, we had them when they were on the radio. Ages and ages, forever and ever and ever. But they became big in America when the Tonight show started. And then there was Johnny Carson and he had them, and then he brought in the monologue at the start of them. So they then became a sort of recognized part of their cultural furniture. And we, needless to say, tried to emulate them. And they had very many. It's interesting, the men who. They got to do it. Eamonn Andrews, who's a brilliant presenter in lots of ways, but was given one of the first chat shows.

[Richard Osman]

He used to do this Is yous Life in the uk.

[Marina Hyde]

He used to do lots of things, but he. He sweated on air so much, it actually became a sort of running joke. And it just didn't work out, this chat show at all. But then David Frost, who had come from. That was the week that was.

[Richard Osman]

They're going, we need someone. We need someone who's not gonna sweat. And Frost. Frost sounds good.

[Marina Hyde]

He had this thing called the Frost Program, and he did some in. You know, this is such a sort of Concord thing. He did some in America. He did eight shows a week, actually, and was sort of able to do that because of Concord. When you kind of fly in and, you know, you arrive before you leave. Then there were other sort of 60s ones that were really like a vibe. There was Simon Dee, and that was so sort of shagadelic.

[Richard Osman]

Simon Dee is probably the most famous person who no one has now heard

[Marina Hyde]

of, who no one has ever heard of.

[Richard Osman]

Talking of falling from, you know, a position of extreme fame to being a footnote. I think he might be the leading candidate for that.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. I mean, that idea that the swinging 60s actually was only 17 people at Mick Jagger in London, and everyone else didn't experience the 60s in that way at all. But Simon Dee would look like he was having.

[Richard Osman]

He was in the middle of.

[Marina Hyde]

And he looked like he was in the middle of it anyway. Then they go to surely the doyen Michael Parkinson, and he says, I don't want a desk. This is one of the decisions that they would have had to have had with Claudia. And what you see that they've got. They've got a curve. I can already see from the set. They've got a curved sofa round a coffee table and all the guests will go together. And her chair, a sort of armchair. But Michael Parkinson said, I don't want a desk. Even though he came from a news background and he had those kind of Eames chairs. And it was a sort of. But it's extraordinary when you think of all. He had these amazing guests and he had guests that returned not because they necessarily had things to promote, but because they just were. And they became part of the sort of Michael Parkinson law. And also things like the Muhammad Ali law, because Muhammad Ali was one of his most famous kind of serial guests. And when you go back over some of the moments, they're sort of extraordinary. There's one episode which I was watching again at the weekend, where Ali really goes for him and just. I mean, it's extraordinary. And you think, this could never happen now. I will never see things like this on tape. Even the thing of Emu, you think that I would never see that now. Rodhal and Emu, the puppet, the Batman.

[Richard Osman]

It would be a YouTube clip that had been set up.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. Everything is so contrived. And these things happened, by and large. They weren't recorded live. Some of them were, but they were allowed to happen. Billy Connolly, who became famous basically by appearing on that chat show. And then there were things like Meg Ryan, which was much later on, and he looked back on it and thought, actually, I was really difficult in that interview.

[Richard Osman]

And also, by the way, he was a terrific interviewer, Michael Parkinson. But anyone who says, oh, we don't have anyone like that anymore, it's nonsense. We live in a completely different culture. We live. We live in an absolutely saturated culture where that cannot exist. Where, you know, we have so much more access to celebrities these days than we did then. You know, that was, you know, a sort of spotlight onto a world that we had no other spotlight onto.

[Marina Hyde]

The promotional world is so developed now. The circuit of it all.

[Richard Osman]

Exactly.

[Marina Hyde]

And how it's managed so you could

[Richard Osman]

not do a Parkinson these days. And it's not because people are not as talented as him, talented though he was. It's just the world is a completely different place.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Claudia's show has been pre recorded and most of these shows ended up being. Some of them were live, but most of them ended up being prerecorded. A big part of that was that Des O' Connor tonight, which was ITV's kind of. ITV had various attempts to, you know, they had Russell Hearty, they had various attempts to sort of try and beat the dominance of Parky, which was not really possible, who was obviously on the BBC, and eventually they took him to itv, but this was so much later in the career. But Des o' Connor tonight, there is a really, really famous episode, but I went back and watched it and a lot more happens on the famous episode where the live goes so wrong for desire. Condes tonight. First of all, the thing that everyone remembers is that the comedian Stan Boardman. You won't remember this if you're listening to this podcast, mate, but it's a sort of famous episode and why the show could never be live again. Stan Boardman, who was a comedian, went on and told a joke about World War II flying aces that used the word Fockers the airplane a lot. You can imagine where that went. And it's actually a really good joke. And I mean, Stamborman's got a lot of jokes that wouldn't age well, let's put it that way. But the next guest tonight is Oli Reed and they found out he has some sort of tattoo somewhere. And Desiconda says to Tim, now you've got a tattoo in a very unusual place. And he says, yes, on my cock. This is all live itv. Okay, so it's like, what? What? Okay, the final guest is Freddie Starr.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, man.

[Marina Hyde]

Who is like. I mean, it's quite hard.

[Richard Osman]

You know, they've got Boardman, Reed, Star.

[Marina Hyde]

I know.

[Richard Osman]

It's like, wow.

[Marina Hyde]

On a live show.

[Richard Osman]

I tell you what, that. That. That'll be next year's BAFTAs.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Anyway, the history of Ollie Reid, by the way, on chat shows could be a whole separate bonus episode. But anyway, Freddie Star ends up doing sort of V signs to feminists and all of this thing. It is Complaints Magaddon. So that is why most Chad shows have never been live in the UK. But it's amazing. It's an 86 and that's. It's all in one show. Okay, so then there's. There's a people like Aspel who's never quite, you know, like, not Parkinson. Wogan is massive three nights a week. You know, he has iconic guests. George Best, I mean, actually David Icke, who I think first comes out as the son of God on Wogan.

[Richard Osman]

That's. If you're a chat show host and someone comes out as the son of God, you're like, okay, this is good. Okay, I've got something here.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

You know when everyone's looking for like sort of a. Like a news item off the back of their interview, if someone sort of, you know, David starts talking about Coventry

[Marina Hyde]

City goalkeeper is now Son of God. He's quite a good.

[Richard Osman]

He's talking about football focus. And then he then. And he says, oh, no, I am actually the Son of God. You are. You know, any journalist is thinking, oh, that feels like we got something.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, yeah, those are the good ideas. Let's just put it like that. But then, then things again, it becomes very influenced by America, particularly Letterman, who I think is the, like, the great sort of giant of all of these things. And then so Jonathan Ross does the Last Resort, which is a very different sort of chat show in lots of. In many, many different ways. And then you get just people like Jack Doherty, who Channel 5 launched. When they launched. I think they had him on five nights a week at the start. And in hit that when obviously he was having time off, he was allowed to be replaced by Graham Norton. What a stand in. I think they both get nominated in the same year. Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Which must have been to be nominated for the same show as you're standing.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, that's. That's not good, is it?

[Marina Hyde]

And then anyway, the BBC obviously realized and Graham Norton does various other things at Channel 4, but the BBC realized he's such a talent and they almost sign him without having anything. But it sort of felt that he'll do an interview show, which he has ended up doing. And now in the off season of Graham Norton, we have Claudia. Claudia.

[Richard Osman]

The fascinating thing about, really about the history of chat shows on British TV is how few of them there are compared to America, where they're the absolute mainstay of.

[Marina Hyde]

I'm sorry, I should have mentioned Savina McCall had one. It lasted for something like eight episodes. It didn't work out. So. Mrs. Merton, I always think that's a. I mean, they did have real people, but it was so brilliant. She's, you know, Carolina Hearn. So amazing. It is really a comedy show. It's not completely fictional like Alan Partridge. Knowing me, Knowing you, the first series ever of Alan Partridge. But I. But it is, to me a comedy program, so I'm not quite including it. Perhaps I should.

[Richard Osman]

No, I don't think you can. But also there have been hundreds of, like, short run.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Lots of other little.

[Richard Osman]

Every single. Pretty much every. You can. You can split anyone who becomes famous into two.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

The second you become famous and people go, oh, that's interesting. The public seem to like you. Is there anything you would like to do? Half of all people who are newly famous and who are put in a room with a commissioner, I would say almost exactly 50% of them say, the thing I would like to do is a chat show.

[Marina Hyde]

Why do you think that is?

[Richard Osman]

Well, it's twofold, which is it looks like you're interested in human beings, so it looks like you're a good guy, but actually you're very, very aware that there is an awful lot of you in it. That actually most of it is you. And especially these days when, you know, segments that get, you know, chopped up and put on YouTube or a thing. So I think it's one of those things where certainly if you're a comic, you think a comic is used to doing crowd work and a comic is used to working with people or working with writers and comics are used to working off people. And so if you're a comic, you think, oh, this is like an hour long conversation where I do half of it.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

And I'm constantly being fed stuff and I won't really have to do any prep, you know, I probably have to read a few, you know, briefs about and I'll probably have to watch someone's film, but really I can just be funny. So that's what they want to do. Commissioners do not want any of those people to do a chat show because you do not want chat shows on British TV because they do not rate. They just don't. I mean, it is of no interest to a commissioner. Panel shows rate on British TV and, you know, formats like that, that's the stuff that rates on British TV and people would always, if you're Jimmy Carr, if you're Alan Carr, if you're whoever, they'd always rather put you in a format. That's how British TV works. However much, you know, that piece of talent would like to do a chat show and the truth is they wouldn't want, you know, really don't want to do a chat show. It does. It never makes anyone look particularly good. There's very few people who can do it. Graham, Jonathan, pretty much the only people who can do it. Everyone else fails at it. So the question is, will Claudia succeed? If anyone in the current climate of British television can succeed, it would be Claudia.

[Marina Hyde]

I agree.

[Richard Osman]

I would think for all sorts of different reasons. I did mention at the beginning, I do think it's worth noting where she is in her career and why, when Claudia walks into a room and says, I'd like to do a chat show. They say yes, there's a number of different reasons. Firstly, yes, she is now officially the highest rating presenter on British tv and that has been Anton Deck for as long as anyone can remember. It's like growing up, you know, with the Queen, you just think, I can't ever imagine anything will ever change here. Anton Dec have been the absolute, you know, top of the ratings for as long as anyone can remember. Huge franchises. And we all know why, because they are sensationally brilliant.

[Marina Hyde]

Magic Mirror is showing someone else to be the fairest of them all.

[Richard Osman]

It show. Well, because they, you know, they have a couple of formats which are perhaps towards the end of the. Where they should be and they haven't yet, you know, done the new ones. Whereas Claudia Strictly, which of course is beyond enormous traitors has absolutely pushed her into a completely different dimension. But again, we're at the start of that cycle. You know, she's even had a hit on Channel four, you know, the Piano.

[Marina Hyde]

She said lots of things on Channel

[Richard Osman]

four, this on cross on Channel four at the moment. There's sort of nothing that she can't do. You know, people are happy to see her on adverts. You know, she's done radio shows forever but you know, it has taken her. It's worth remembering, you know, when people say, oh, they put the same people on all the time. She's on TV for 34 years before she became the biggest rating presenter on British television.

[Marina Hyde]

I remember her 10 years ago saying to me, I absolutely, I just do so many interviews with people, you know, just things behind the scenes stuff that you wouldn't see. Not, not that's on TV or anything like that. Just sort of, maybe that's corporate jobs or whatever and interviewing celebrities even, but behind the scenes for in kind of closed areas. And she said, I just, it's. That's my. I would love to interview people. And that's 10 years ago. And she's been pretty successful ever since then.

[Richard Osman]

And yet and she's only just been given this chat show. She started as a early 90s, you know, she came from a media family so that, you know, she started as a journalist, she would do travel, writing, all sorts of things like that. And then suddenly she's on the, you know, holiday program. She had a career that could not exist anymore. Okay, the Claudia Winkman and the anton deck of 20 years time will not start where they started. She had a career that started, you know, as I say, on the holiday program BBC3 sort of went, oh, she's Fun, she's smart, she's not a comedian, but she's funny. People seem to find her relatable. Which is the absolute kind of golden egg. Is it golden egg or golden goose? It's both. Right?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, it's.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, the goose lays the egg. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I don't need to tell you that. So she does an awful lot of work on BBC3. There are a million formats that she does. And that's why this world doesn't exist anymore. Because it was the era that I grew up in TV as well, where you were selling 20, 30 formats a year, most of which people would never have heard of. She did a great format, like a dating format on BBC3 called Three's a Crowd. And I think that was the first time, I think someone went, oh, do you know what? Why don't you just be yourself? Which is a really funny, relatable woman who seems to like other human beings. And obviously if she came along now, that avenue would not be open to her. She did that. She then this is why 34 years it's taken her to be the biggest rating thing. That's all I'll say. She says yes to. Oh, I will do the BBC3 companion show to Fame Academy.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. So I would do Fame Academy, which, Which, you know, with, I mean, God love it. And I was at Endermore when, When we made it, it was not first string singing talent show.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, I was about to say it was a singing talent show just for people who.

[Richard Osman]

In a big house, strangely can't remember it. Yeah, people in a big house up in Hampstead. And back in those days, you did any show like that, you would always do a companion show on BBC3 because. And it's, it's, you know, television was awash with money and they didn't know where to spend it because all the advertising money went to television, where now it goes elsewhere anyway. So there was a lot of money around. So you would make a companion show to a singing show that wasn't a particularly popular singing show anyway. She did that. She was absolutely terrific on that. She did it so well that actually when Fame Academy came back, because these things came back, she did the main show. But more importantly, someone else who was making a companion show saw that Fame Academy companion show and went, oh, this woman can really do mainstream, but she can be really funny and she can do whimsy and she seems to be interested in what people are saying to her and she seems to have to come back. And those are the People who are making Strictly, It Takes two. So they give her Strictly. It Takes two. And when you do Strictly, It Takes two for a few years.

[Marina Hyde]

The rest is light entertainment history.

[Richard Osman]

The rest is light entertainment history because you are first in line to do Strictly, which she absolutely does. And that's where she'd been in TV a long time. That's probably the first time that the British public as a whole actually knew who she was. There's. I mean.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, that's mainstream.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. A lot of people who listen to this podcast, we consume a lot of media. Most people do not. And you'd be amazed at how few people know the people that you know.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

It really, you know, Claudia, if they knew her for anything, it would be literally because of Strictly. It Takes Two. There we go. Oh. Oh, that's nice, though. Yeah. So she does Strictly becomes, you know, the most loved person on British television, as you say, sort of in the same year as Strictly, I think maybe the year before. She also does. Takes over from Jonathan Ross on the film show.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

Which shows another side of who she is. You can sort of put her in anything. There's very few people who could do a serious film review show, could do Strictly and could do Crufts and do all those things and make them better by being who they are. So that's the career that she has had, I would say, and obviously post that she's done Traitors. I can go through some of her flops, by the way, because there's plenty. But that. But that's the thing about being represented.

[Marina Hyde]

When you're hot, you're hot.

[Richard Osman]

Well, most shows fail.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

You know what I mean? I mean, she did one. One Question on. On Channel 4. If people know that the Quiz show, you know, that fails. She did Eurovision Dance Contest. She did Britain's Best Home Cook, which surprised me that it failed. But it did fail. But, you know, then she does Great British Sewing Beat. She has enough hits that people give her work and Traitors comes along, you think, well, who's the perfect host for this? Everybody loves Claudia. We'll give it to Claudia. So that is an enormous hit. And all of this is to say when on Friday night you do or don't sit down to watch Claudia doing that show, do not listen to anyone who says, oh, my God, they'll give anyone a chat show. But you know what I mean? This is a woman who's done great work for 34 years on television, who's had a series of massive hits in completely different genres, who, as you say, has shown a willingness throughout all of that time to behind the scenes be interested in human beings and talk to people and find out about careers and be interested in different bits of the business. And she wanted to do it. And when Claudia goes into the BBC and she's got Graham Stewart and Joan Magnussen and the team at SOTV who make Graham, that is just about the only thing that can make a television channel break the golden rule of never, ever, ever give anybody a chat show. That's the one of the few times where you think, do you know what? That might actually work. And I think for Claudia, I mean, I hope it's a huge success. And as I say, people who were at the recording absolutely loved it. But it is definitively the right idea at the right time with the right person. It might still fail because almost everything does fail. But I just think it's interesting, the career that she's had, the work that she's done, the popularity that she's gained over the years, and it's taken her 34 years to get a chat show.

[Marina Hyde]

But it is historic, a woman doing it, I have to say, because it's

[Richard Osman]

a high profile one.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, if it works, it will be historic. I mean, I was thinking, I mean, obviously Parky is amazing, but for me, maybe the best interviewer completely is Kirsty Young. I think she's absolutely phenomenal. And. But that's a different thing. She did Desert Island Discs and it's done in a. You know, and that's on the radio and that's separate to this.

[Richard Osman]

But which of course is a chat show. I mean, that's the.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, but she is an. But if you listen to. I mean, I think she is peerless, honestly. Okay, the first guests, we know who they are. So can we just talk about. If you're putting together a line up. Yeah, okay. Right, so Claudia's first guests are Jeff Goldblum promoting his band, the Mildred Schnitzer Orchestra.

[Richard Osman]

I mean, listen, Jeff, if you want to. Come on, you're. Sorry, you're promoting what? Fine. You know what, fine. We will, of course we'll do a quiz when you watch it on Friday time, how long they spend talking about that band. Unless it's a bit. Unless they go, why don't you play us something? Or why don't you do. Or you turn it into a sketch. Yes, you know, that's a possibility.

[Marina Hyde]

Vanessa Williams, who's been playing Miranda Priestley in the Devil Wells, Prada in the West End for quite a long time now. So it's not like she's starting next week. Jennifer Saunders, National Treasure covered. Who's going to be in the Magic Faraway Tree, which is new and which is coming up, and Tom Allen, who's got his new book, Common Decency.

[Richard Osman]

But that's just. He's a great comic.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. So that thing of plugging, I mean. Yes, Jeff, I'm sure he will be plugging his band. What do you think about that mix of.

[Richard Osman]

I think that this show will live or die on its production, nothing else.

[Marina Hyde]

Right.

[Richard Osman]

You know, it just, it just will, you know, if they make it. Well, if they've got interesting items and as I say, they've got interesting audience things and if it allows Claudia to be Claudia.

[Marina Hyde]

The audience, by the way, they've said they sort of want them to dress up. So that gives you a sense of the maybe what they're going to try and go for. They've said something like, no gilets, no sort of, you know, not your work a day clothes. They want you to be like, we're all getting glammed up for a night with Claudia, as far as I can see from there have been instructions as to what they should.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. To turn it into something. And as you say, Claudia's been planning this a very, very long time and she's got great producers as well. And we are aware that we are in a world where chat chase. You look at the, you know, the late night stuff in America at the moment and it is all about what you clip from that and what are the bits and you know, how you make your host a personality and the guests sometimes are sort of ciphers and, you know, it works for them because people are watching and you do get to, to talk about your band. It's whether it gives Claudia the opportunity to be Claudia. And if it does, then people will want to come on because it will get good ratings and that's all you know, you really want in return for going on a show.

[Marina Hyde]

Look at Graham. He's now in Taylor Swift videos. He's going to the wedding. It's hilarious.

[Richard Osman]

But you know, he is sensationally good at what he does and people are quite bad at alternate realities of how differently you could do that show. And almost everyone would do that. Worse than Graham is sort of. He makes it look effortless. If anyone else can do that, it is Claudia. She certainly has the goodwill of the British public, that's for sure. I just, I don't want people to say, I can't believe. Oh, God. Will they give anyone a chat show? No, they Would they? The whole point is they will give nobody a chat show. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody who has any money in television wants to spend it on a chat show. No one.

[Marina Hyde]

This is anyone who's listened to the show. Richard now knows that for sure. And they will take your message out into the wider world, into their living rooms, and they will impart it to anyone who doesn't quite understand it.

[Richard Osman]

That said, Channel four, I would be interested in doing one. I'm sort of free. I'm free now, you know, how's the games? My bit of it is done and I just. I like talking to people. That's me, you know, I like talking to celebrities. I would do. Every single celebrity always goes, I'm, I'm. Everyone pitches this. Newly famous people always say, I want to do a chat show. But with ordinary people.

[Marina Hyde]

That's our new section. I could do that. In which every week Richard will pick a piece of television that he quite likes and just say, I could do that.

[Richard Osman]

I couldn't do it, though. I'd be terrible at a chat. I wouldn't be any good at a chat show. It's really, really, really, really difficult to make a chat show.

[Marina Hyde]

I think you'd be good. I don't think that's true, but I would actually.

[Richard Osman]

I'd prefer to do a chat show with ordinary people. I think that's more fun. And I do think there's a show there.

[Marina Hyde]

Has anyone ever done that?

[Richard Osman]

That's. No, but it's what everyone pitches.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, really?

[Richard Osman]

Everyone always pitches that. And it. And it is interesting.

[Marina Hyde]

It's actually okay just as a sort of, you know, that the observer always used to have that feature in the magazine. They have this much do. I know. And sometimes they have famous people do it and tell you all the sort of, you know, their theories on life. It's so much more fun when they get like a florist or a bikini waxer or whatever. Yeah, yeah, it's really, really interesting.

[Richard Osman]

Well, that's what you know, because there is a point at which doing a chat show is the law of diminishing returns. Because everyone's been on. Everyone who is on a chat show has been on so many chat shows and you know, is gonna be a tiny bit more.

[Marina Hyde]

So people always preach the real life people chat show, but it never.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, well, because no one wants chat show fantasy. So they're like, you know, you can't say a chat show with real people without saying chat show. The truth is, ordinary non show business people can be much, much, much more Interesting. If you've got a good booker, which is, you know, what you need on this is. And they've spoken to people and people with extraordinary stories or who do extraordinary jobs or who can tell you something about an ordinary job that you wouldn't know. That's fascinating. But it is still a chat show and therefore it will not get made. We had an idea once called the Chat show of Doom, which I really liked, which had you had five guests and the audience would vote off the most boring one after each round. So the first round would be give us an anecdote from your school days. And the second round would be, you know, bring on a friend. And you know, the third round.

[Marina Hyde]

Are these real human civilians or celebrities?

[Richard Osman]

Celebrities.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, well, then it's fine.

[Richard Osman]

Otherwise I think I'd been here. Oh, my God. Yeah. No, we wouldn't. Yeah, that works with celebs. And then, you know, the people who get voted off stand on sideline and they can ask questions.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, I like that.

[Richard Osman]

So that's kind of. Yeah, I know. But again, back in the days of TV when there was so much money, probably couldn't get made. But anyway, I absolutely digress. Claudia is doing a straight up chat show. There are very, very, very few of them and I wish it every success. It's got absolutely the best people involved with it. Almost all television fails, but I have my fingers crossed for this one. 1040 on Friday.

[Marina Hyde]

Friday the 13th, as Claudia has been the very first person to point out.

[Richard Osman]

That's good, but that's Claudia all over.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, the self deprecation is Persona.

[Richard Osman]

I mean, yeah, of course she would have been the second they go, oh, that's Friday the 13th. Is that the problem? She'd go, no, that is perfect. I have absolute plausible deniability.

[Marina Hyde]

Right, please. I think we should take a break now, but do join us after the break where we will be talking about Harry Styles.

[Richard Osman]

He'd be a good guest.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, he'd be a super guest.

[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

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[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

It matters where you stay. Book [e-mail] Hilton for the stay. Welcome back, everybody. Now we're gonna talk about Harry Styles. He's got a new album out titled Kiss. All the Time Disco, Occasionally.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

I was trying to think what it reminded me of and I couldn't quite. And Alexis Petridis, who I love, he's the Guardian sort of music writer, said it sounds like something you'd see on a poster in a kitchen next to a sign informing you that it's Prosecco o'.

[Richard Osman]

Clock.

[Marina Hyde]

And it's very interesting because he's with that question now, one of the sort of most famous guys on the planet. It's a, you know, he's still pretty young. He's had some time away. Well, in the, in the, in the modern world, this is called having some time away. His last Tour finished in 2023.

[Richard Osman]

Lazy.

[Marina Hyde]

And he's. Yeah, well, he went away. He went to Italy also brought out a sex toy range. He's. Yeah, diversified to give you. We'll come back to this, but to give you a little window into what it's like being Harry Styles. I think he did an interview saying that, you know, he'd really love being in Italy and taking this time away. And he loved the pace of Rome and being able to sit and just have his coffee and just. He thought the Italians were great or something like that. The level of backlash on that from online from like, you don't understand anything. You don't understand Rome. You don't understand the modern world. You're so privileged. This is what it's like to live in a World where you just say, I've quite enjoyed having a cup of coffee and not having to be in a rush with something. I was thinking about something like Alanis Morissette bringing out a song called thank you, which is. The chorus is thank you, India. Let me tell you, you could do things like 30 years ago, these days, you cannot have an interview about saying how you quite like not having to do anything in Rome before people kind of completely kick back on you. And so it's interesting living in a world where anything you say can be backlashed against. And I think we'll come on to that as we end up talking about him more. But he's. In order for this new album he's going to do, he's not going to tour particularly. He's going to do residencies. He's doing 12 nights at Wembley and 30 nights at Madison Square Gardens, which is totally extraordinary. And he's obviously decided that he doesn't want to particularly move around. And you're at that stage, which is sort of difficult, I think, when you're a music artist where you can do whatever you want. If you're as famous and as successful as Harry Styles, that is actually, to some degree, dangerous territory for artists, but you can. And so the fans will have to come to him. And obviously, in the us, that involves airfares and hotel rooms and things like that. And the prices anyway, for these tickets are very, very exp. And even Liam Gallagher was sort of joking that, oh, look, Oasis tickets are quite reasonable now. Anyway, this is all the backdrop to him bringing out a new album. And have you listened to the new album? Yes, yes.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. I'm a huge Harry Styles.

[Marina Hyde]

I love Harry Styles.

[Richard Osman]

It's a bit more. I'm going to do a slightly cooler album, but, yeah, I love it.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. Because you don't know what it's on about quite a lot of the time.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

And I. I do think that's interesting, you know, in a world where all of you know, the endless Easter egg culture and the endless trying to work out what everything means of lyrics, even though he's quite obviously like the. You of the album, he talks about you doing this, you doing that, and, you know, he's sort of talking about himself, it's quite. You don't really know what Harry Styles is talking about. And there is a point at this stage in an artist's life where they can kind of only write music about being an international pop star.

[Richard Osman]

What else is there?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, Someone like Taylor Swift manages to do it and make it Relatable. I think that this is. I don't know. I found it quite hard to. Quite a lot of it sounds like absolute gibberish, the lyrics. I mean, really gibberish. And I wonder if it's. There's something about. If we talk about the background of Harry Styles. Harry Styles is managed by these two. These guys. By Irving and Jeff Azoff. They're father and son. Some people say they curate Harry Styles. You see, this is the world he has to live in, where they stage his life. And none of this is true. And the Azophs themselves have become a sort of fan conspiracy kind of lightning rod. And the idea that they've created this creature, this confection, this whole facade, because as we know, the whole drive of everything now is to say, no matter how much more polished things have got or also how more raw and authentic things have got, the whole drive of fandom now is to say, this isn't what it is. This is. You're selling me an image and this isn't true. He doesn't go out with these women or he doesn't. You know, there's something that's being hidden from me here, but I know what it is, and I think it's interesting what happened with the One direction fandom, the 1D fans, Directioners. You know, those ones forged in the fires of 2010's Tumblr. Those were hardcore, okay? They were really hardcore. You know, they quite. The level of death threat, the level of this or that, just bandied out ridiculously over tiny things. That energy I don't think has been destroyed, but it has kind of morphed. And there are whole weird schools within this fandom, which is why people always think, I don't believe things about Harry Styles or whatever, although these people do. There's a Larry Stylinson conspiracy. Are you aware of this?

[Richard Osman]

Larry Stylinson?

[Marina Hyde]

This is that Harry and Louis are together. They've always been Harriet from One Direction,

[Richard Osman]

Louis Tomlinson, but they had that and the Spice Girls as well, didn't they?

[Marina Hyde]

Well, hang on a second. Well, that actually did happen.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, okay. I take it back.

[Marina Hyde]

But no matter how many times Harry and Louis have denied it, that shipping culture, that idea that you want these relationships to be real, I don't see

[Richard Osman]

the two of them together.

[Marina Hyde]

No. Well, you know, there are so the Larrys, the sort of fandom subgroup who just believe that Louis Tomlinson's son Freddie is like a staged event and that they have a series of actor babies. And now, growing up young Toddlers that are sort of shipped in, but the level of how they read stuff into things. They've got this other whole conspiracy theory that attended One Direction, the Rainbow Bondage Bears. The crew put some teddies round in the sort of final concert and some of them had sort of unusual costumes. They. Secret messages to the Larrys from Harry and Louis that they were on the right track. Keep digging, guys, because you're correct. These rainbow bondage bears are sending you messages.

[Richard Osman]

That's how I would do it. If I was having a secret gay affair with a bandmate and I wasn't supposed to say, but people had got it, I would go, do you know what? Teddy bears.

[Marina Hyde]

Someone get down to Hamley's Rainbow.

[Richard Osman]

But also Bondage. Yeah, that should. That should let them know.

[Marina Hyde]

So I guess my point about bringing all this stuff is how do you make music about any of this stuff if you live in a world of insanity and anything you say. He's actually. Harry Styles says so little about his. For someone who's obviously sort of very open and has to feel like someone who's confessional, he says very little about things. There are certain things. There's a track called Medicine that he plays live, that talks slightly about messing around with boys and girls, but these are just tiny lines. There are whole fan treatises, millions of them online, about all of these stuff. And I think that it becomes really hard when you're that famous to then either you kind of submit to this culture and say, okay, I will do what Taylor Swift is and allow it to be and write these songs that I can quite. Or not just Taylor Swift, by the way, many, many people, and write diss tracks. Or I can write things that people can interpret in their own way, and I know how they're going to interpret it and have some form of control over the this. Or you can just become quite sort of obscurantist. And I do find when I'm listening to this, what else are you going to do? You're just trying to kind of be out there, but also hold yourself back.

[Richard Osman]

Well, you must. Every lyric you ever write, you must think, oh, God, no, hold on.

[Marina Hyde]

I know what I was going to say.

[Richard Osman]

Someone could say that.

[Marina Hyde]

I know.

[Richard Osman]

So you know, you do. You do, sort of.

[Marina Hyde]

That's what I'm saying.

[Richard Osman]

Either incredibly specific or incredibly vague. You can't. You can't be anywhere in the middle.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Modern fandom, this type of obsessive fandom, has been incredibly creatively destructive. And I think that for me, for sure, you can't say anything now.

[Richard Osman]

That's why I gave up House of Games. It's too much. The stuff that they were reading in to the. To the silver owl behind me. Yeah, it's just an owl. Come on, guys. It's just an owl.

[Marina Hyde]

That's a message to people that it's not just an owl and they have to keep digging.

[Richard Osman]

There is nothing happening between me and Alexander Armstrong. Absolutely. I promise you. But would. Would that there were.

[Marina Hyde]

Would that there were. Well, now you said that, but I do think it's because I think it makes it very, very difficult creatively. And I did. Here's something else. I was thinking about the weekend. Why do we have the.

[Richard Osman]

I'd love to be inside your brain sometimes. No, you wouldn't just go, oh, my God. Marina at the weekends is.

[Marina Hyde]

No, but is there. I was probably just doing the washing up. But is there a. There doesn't seem the same camaraderie among the big, big male artists in the world. There is a sort of weird sisterhood, even if they don't acknowledge each other amongst the women. And I thought partly that's because all women in the public eye will have had some similar experiences, will have experienced obsessive fandom in the same way that perhaps only women feel that in that particular way. But I don't get the sense that there's like a camaraderie between, you know, Harry Styles. Harry Styles and Kendrick and Bad Bunny or whatever. I mean, they all come from incredibly different places, obviously, but I don't have that sense that in a world of sort of solo artists, almost exclusively sort of big, big solo artist. Yeah, I don't get that vibe. Do you?

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, he feel. He feels like. He feels in a class of one. Harry. Yeah, in lots.

[Marina Hyde]

They're all in a class.

[Richard Osman]

And I know he's surrounded by great producers and writers and Kid Harpoon and people like that. And he seems to be. He seems to be surrounded by good people, as far as I can tell. He certainly seems to be surrounded by good collaborators who are making great music. But, yeah, I guess having started. It's funny where people start having started in a boy band that was so, you know, even for a manufactured band that was super manufactured, they were all chucked out of X Factor and then they were all called back in, even

[Marina Hyde]

though it was like reconstituted meat.

[Richard Osman]

But even though they were the five most handsome people in the category, you go, that's weird. They got rid of Harry Styles, the most handsome boy in the whole world who can also sing and they put some other people through anyway. So the whole thing had been so weirdly kind of put together in such an artificial way. And he seems to have, I'm sure, as you say, with his managers, there are people behind the scenes suggesting ways and means of putting his career together. But he seems to be. Have chosen incredibly good collaborators and incredibly real collaborators and he seems to be quite an authentic human being and he seems to enjoy his life. Talk to me through why and how much. Why these tickets are so expensive. They seem insanely expensive.

[Marina Hyde]

Some of them, like the top prices are hugely expensive.

[Richard Osman]

But that seems unusual. That seems a misstep to me.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, I agree that it seems a misstep and particularly when you're doing residencies. If you're saying, okay, I'm going to go to Manchester or I'm going to go to, to Denver, I'm gonna go across, I'm gonna travel across countries and you can come as close as possible. If you're saying you've got to come to Madison Square Garden, which is, you know, fine if you live in New York.

[Richard Osman]

What it's like people who have a destination wedding and then don't have a free bar.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh my God. Do a destination hen weekend. Okay. That is a war crime. And I could do a. Yeah, we. I can't get into it.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. I mean both. Charging that that much for tickets for a residency is essentially like having a destination hendu and a destination wedding.

[Marina Hyde]

And a destination wedding.

[Richard Osman]

I'm more of a destination stag for Harry.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. And then still doing a wedding list of presents.

[Richard Osman]

God, Harry would have a great stag.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Don't you think?

[Marina Hyde]

I think he would. I think it would be.

[Richard Osman]

I wouldn't know. You know what? I wouldn't know what to wear to Harry Snag.

[Marina Hyde]

He'd get one of his friends to find you some clothes.

[Richard Osman]

Okay.

[Marina Hyde]

I would see you in the. The Harry Styles stack.

[Richard Osman]

The Harry Styles look. The Harry Styles universe.

[Marina Hyde]

So the tickets are very, very, very expensive. And there are people who say that this is just that. I mean we've talked a lot about ticketing and how people. And it's all live and how people can just do sort of what they want. You don't have to. And I think even the cheapest tickets here, if Liam Gallagher's making a joke about them being very, very expensive.

[Richard Osman]

But is there a bit of it? Is it sort of saying because there's only room for so many absolutely mega brands and really you want to be. Be world conquering in every way. So you know Harry Styles would like to be the male Taylor Swift. Yeah. And you know, Taylor Swift definitively, you know, there's some huge, huge, huge female stars, can talk about one in a second out there in the world, but she is, she is above all of them.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

And is there a bit like Stella Artois is reassuring the expensive? Okay. Is there a bit that says you have to, you have to show your loyalty to me? You have to show my primacy in the, you know, the, the world, pop culture by paying that much money? Well, that's how, that's how big I am.

[Marina Hyde]

And, and part of what I was saying to you earlier when we were talking about this is that that stage where you can do whatever you want and you can say, actually, I'm not going to get on the tour bus, I'm not going to travel around the United States. I am just literally going to get people to come to me. You can do it. And it does show your power. Whether you should do it is another matter. And I realize that touring is grueling and if you found your great headspace in Italy, maybe you don't want to do that, but if you are going to do it there and stay in one place, then you have to factor in the cost of doing these things. I think it's very. If your sort of message and your vibe is, I am Mr. Inclusive, as we've talked of before, you know, there's nothing. You can't really be inclusive when you cost this much, I guess.

[Richard Osman]

But I wonder if it is like, you know, like De Beers holds all of the diamonds and just lets them come bit by bit to make them artificially expensive. I wonder if there is a bit that says, do you know what, if you are come to see me, you are not going to be able to afford to go and see Alex Warren or Benson Boone. It's just me, it's just Harry.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, that's why the conspiracy theories now kind of funnel so frequently through the management, because nobody wants to think that the guy they love is like this. So you have to think that there are people who are making him behave like this.

[Richard Osman]

No, he can do what he wants.

[Marina Hyde]

Exactly. But you see, it's all part. But this is why people have to feel that. Because you don't really want to think that Harry Styles would rinse you without a second thought.

[Richard Osman]

So you have to think, there's plenty of people going home. You know what? He could rinse me without a second thought.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, quite right. But what they really want to say is, no, he is under the thumb of management who are making him do this. That isn't how it works.

[Richard Osman]

Anyway, the album is terrific. It's gonna be number one this week. He's also had a number one single this year, Aperture, which leads me, can I do this geeky chart?

[Marina Hyde]

Please do it.

[Richard Osman]

So Aperture is the only song this year that would have been number one, apart from Man I Need by Olivia Dean. So Olivia Dean's Man I Need has been the best selling single in the UK all year, like the whole of the year, apart from the one week of Harry Styles. However, it has not been number one at any point. And so I just wanted to talk about why that is. It's quite geeky, but if you're interested in the charts, I think it's interesting. So we, I think most people know now the charts are based on sales and streams and the way it works is one sale is one sale, one physical sale. But it is 100 streams equals one sale. Okay, so a sale, a physical sale, that counts as one. A stream, 100 counts as one. And you add the sale together with the streaming and that's where you get your chart position. Now, Man I Need came out last year. It was number one for one week. It was in the top 10, it was number two for seven weeks. I think it was in the top 10 for spin, the top 10 for 24 weeks. Huge song. Definitively Olivia Dean's biggest song and she's become such a massive artist. But it is currently this week again, it's the biggest selling song. It's number eight in the charts. And the reason that is, I just think, again, I'll say this because I, I think it's interesting. And if you're interested by the way, in anything geeky in the charts, it's an amazing blog called Chart Watch by a guy called James Masterson that I read every week. I just, I love, I'm fascinated in the charts anyway. But you, you can read about all this stuff, but the reason that it is not number one is there is a thing called acr, which is accelerated chart ratio.

[Marina Hyde]

So first time on the podcast.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, you get scr, which is standard chart ratio, which is, as I say, that thing of 100 streams is a sale and a sale is a sale after 10 weeks in the charts. If you've been in the charts for 10 weeks and you've had three consecutive weeks of declining sales, you go into ACR, which is accelerated chart ratio. And then you have to have 200 streams to count as one sale. And that's to Try and stop the charts being clogged up by the same songs, like Endlessly, which even though they are. Oh, they're insanely clogged up, but it would be even more. More clogged up. And man, I need after, literally after the first 10 weeks, had had three weeks of declining sales. So from that moment on, this had to have 200 streams for every single sale. And that's meant that it has been. It is outsold, actually outsold every single number one this year, apart from Harry Styles, but there's never been number one. The song that is number one at the moment is another Olivia Dean. So Olivia Dean and Sam Fender duet Reign Me In. So that's number one, as I say, sold fewer than the other one. But that has been out. It went to number one two weeks ago, three weeks ago, and holds the record for. It had been in the top 40 for 35 weeks before it went to number one. Before it went to number one, which is a record. There's been lots of records that took years and years to get to number one, but that had been consecutively in the top 40 for 35 weeks before it hit number one. If you look at the chart sales of. It has never had three weeks in a row of declining sales. So it has never gone into ACR. It is still in SCR. It's still 100 streams for a sale. And a couple of times it's had two weeks in a row where it's dropped, and then the next week it's gone up again. So it's never, ever, ever gone into acr. So that is number one. Despite the fact that Man, I Need sells more copies. A song like Ray's where the Head Is My Husband is about number 14 this week. That went into ACR after about 10 weeks as well. So all of those old songs, the ACR songs will be much, much higher up the charts. But because of this thing which is attempting to stop there being all of these kind of stop it being gummed

[Marina Hyde]

up, even though it is so gummed up.

[Richard Osman]

There are 19 songs in the top hundred at the moment that have been there for over a year. 19 songs. I'll go through some of them. Espresso by Sabrina Carpenter is still in there. Good luck. Babe Chapel, Rowan Stargazing, Miles Smith, Aperture. Of course, Stick Season is still in the charts. That's so true. Gracie Abrams, Messi, Lola Young, Lose Control by Teddy Swims. That's still in there. You've still got Mr. Brightside by the Killers, which has been in the chop for 495 weeks. But without ACR, these things would be even higher up. So it's an attempt to stop this happening. But the charts are not what they were. That's why you don't have Top of the Pops anymore, because it's the same songs week after week after week.

[Marina Hyde]

This is what we've been talking about before, which is that sort of. Sort of slight feeling of cultural inertia and that you're sort of stuck in treacle and you can't move forward in the way at the speed of which you did because. Because a huge part of modernity is the kind of shock of the new. And there are obviously bits of UK music that. The kind of sub genres that are very avant garde and there's lots of churn and it's very interesting. Something like Drill or whatever it is or I don't know, you know, experimental indie or something like that. There's a lot.

[Richard Osman]

There's lots of amazing music out there.

[Marina Hyde]

Is becoming very conservative.

[Richard Osman]

Well, it sort of is. I mean it's brilliant. I mean there are so many amazing pop. I mean there's so many huge amazing pop tunes. They just hang around for a really, really, really long time in a sort of comm. Classics long before the classics of the 80s did because something like Ordinary by Alex Warren, which has been in the chart for over a year, you know, it's a. It's a great track. Beautiful Things by Benson Bean, you know, these, these songs but they, they hang around for a very, very, very long time. The other thing they try and do is. So for example, Harry star's album's got 12 tracks on it, I think or I think so all 12 of those would. Would hit the charts next week because of streaming. So you don't really suffer as a single anymore. It's. It's literally just a single track counts as all 12 of those would be in the charts. But you're only allowed three tracks in the chart. So your three highest selling songs will be in the chart. Olivia Dean, funnily enough, has got four because one of her songs is this duet with Sam Fender. Bruno Mars has got four as well, but you are only allowed three. Which means that the top 10 otherwise the week Taylor Swift's album comes out, the top 10 would all be Taylor Swift, you know, and the week that Harry Styles comes out, the top 10 would all be Harry Styles, which again, you can't have.

[Marina Hyde]

Music is somewhere that you're not feeling that the culture is propelling and you. Because things hang around for so long. And you definitely feel it in video games. Yes. Visual art, for sure. Hollywood films. No.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Everything feels retready TV sometimes. But not really pop music. No, I just don't think so. And I think that's. They're kind of in the risk management business. It's very. I think it's becoming very conservative. I do think that the things that hang around and the sense of it, you just. These kind of hegemonies that just go on. It's not the same. It doesn't feel experimental.

[Richard Osman]

I think this might be a chart issue rather than a culture issue, is what I will say. So I love the charts and I fetishize the charts and I look at it every week. And as I say this amazing blog chart Watch. If you're like me, it's great. It's full of amazing little facts and where the charts are going. But if you forget the charts, which most people do actually the amount of music and the quality of music and the diversity of music is kind of. It's kind of never been better.

[Marina Hyde]

This is what people are actually listening, what most people are listening to. And that's why the charts, even though they seem an antiquated concept, are not. Because it is actually quite interesting to find out what most people are listening to. And so even though there is all this other stuff out there, there is a sense of hegemony.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, but that's. That's just popular culture.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, I don't think it has always been. Actually. I think that it has felt much more dynamic. And I actually think that some, as I say, something like gaming or visual arts, where you do think there is a dynamism, you feel less of that in pop.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, maybe. I just think we live in sort of one of the glory areas of pop music, that's for sure. So we probably don't live in the glory eras of, you know, new young, cool bands playing in small venues, which is a shame because that's what I grew up with. But I definitely think we're living in a golden age of pop music. I will to bang a drum. I bang many times before. 19 of the top 20. 19 of the top 20 are solo artists.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

There's only one band in the top 20 and that's the Italian house band, Milky. So you know that's the chance for you. But I know it's geeky. I'm aware it's geeky. I thought, I thought, I thought that people maybe don't know ACR and the fact you only know those three songs in the chart at any given time. Explain. A lot of. They're desperately trying to unclog the charts. It is almost impossible. I mean, there's two Fleetwood Mac tracks in the top hundred. I mean, you know, come on. And you know, I like Fleet with Mac. And I cannot lie.

[Marina Hyde]

No one's saying you don't like Feet with Mac.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. Any recommendations this week?

[Marina Hyde]

Yes, I have got. I would love to recommend a new novel which is out on Tuesday. This Tuesday. Look what yout Made Me do by John Lanchester, who wrote Capital. He writes lots of novels and also a brilliant sort of essayist. It's called An Entertainment Angle, Richard. It's about. Okay. A recent widow is forced to sort of excavate her marriage after the hit TV show of the year. Like the one show that everyone's talking about appears to be completely based on her marriage. And it is a black comedy about intergenerational resentment and loathing, I would say. Yeah. Boomers v Millennials. Anyway, it's funny, it's really good. So I'd recommend that look what yout Made Me do by John Lanchester, which is at about today.

[Richard Osman]

I'm going to recommend two home renovation shows, both on iplayer. One is the Alan Carr, Amanda Holden renovation shows. This one is the Greek one. They're so brilliant. I think they are the best of Alan Carr and the best of Amanda Holden at the same time. They're so delightful in these shows. You genuinely see something about them and their relationship is delightful. And they're doing Upper House, but I mean, that's, that's. That's by the by on it. There's so many laughs in. In that show, I think Ana and Amanda, this Greek adventure. But also if you enjoy designing Hebrides, which I talked about before Banjo, who started on Interior Design Masters with Alan Carr, it all comes together. This is like my version of Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson. He and his husband Ro are doing up at a hotel on a tiny island called Ulva, which is just off Mull. And it's really, really, really beautifully made. And their relationship is lovely. It's called Banjo and Rose Grand Hotel, I think. And it's just. Just really a very, very charming look at island life. Again, they're doing Upper House. I mean, that's absolutely fine, but it's a really, really lovely bit of television. So Alan and Amanda's Greek Adventure and Banjo and Rose Grand Island Hotel. My recommendations for the week. But I will also be reading that John Lanchester novel. What was it called again?

[Marina Hyde]

Look what yout Made Me Do.

[Richard Osman]

Look.

[Marina Hyde]

What.

[Richard Osman]

That's a good title as well. Look what yout Made Me Do.

[Marina Hyde]

Right, we are back on Thursday.

[Richard Osman]

Yes. Our Q and A is with Tim

[Marina Hyde]

Davy, the outgoing Director General of the BBC, which promises to be extremely interesting.

[Richard Osman]

You sent in some genuinely brilliant questions.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

I'm very proud of you all. They were. There were some really good questions. Really good questions.

[Marina Hyde]

And our bonus episode this week is on the village people, who 50% of the band appear to think is a straight band, has only ever been a straight band. And 50% of the band think it's a gay band.

[Richard Osman]

It's a really good. It's a really fascinating story.

[Marina Hyde]

Anyway, you can join as a member thereastersentertainment.com Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday.

[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

And breathe. Oh, sorry.

[Marina Hyde]

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts. Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho. Look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling. Ross, Work your magic.