B (1:58)

Red Bull gives you wings.

A (2:00)

Visit Red Bull.com BrightSummerAhead to learn more. See you this summer. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina

B (2:12)

Hyde and me, Richard Osman. Hello, everyone. Hi, Marina.

A (2:15)

Hello, Richard. How are you?

B (2:16)

Very well. So nice to see you.

A (2:17)

It is very nice to see you. And I'm very pleased with the timing of our show this week because there was a huge announcement over the weekend. Was there not?

B (2:26)

Um, yes.

A (2:27)

Yeah.

B (2:28)

Celeb traitors that line up. I was trying to. I was gonna do a joke, but come on. Yeah. So we're gonna talk our way through that celebrity traitors lineup and tell you who is going to win, I think.

A (2:38)

Oh, my goodness. Okay, you can tell me that. And we're also going to talk about Linger, a 33 year old song by the Cranberries, which is sort of everywhere at the moment. We're gonna talk about when a song blows up like that in that way, sort of how and why it happens.

B (2:53)

Yeah. And also we are going to get Marina's tip on who's gonna be the new Bond.

A (2:59)

Yeah. Just sell shares in whoever I say. But I have got a tip.

B (3:02)

There have been developments. I did my last ever House of Games this week. That was a bit of fun.

A (3:07)

Oh my God.

B (3:07)

Yeah. How did you actually. And I saw Michael Sheen presenting as well.

A (3:11)

Oh, the presenter of Michael Sheen's House of Games.

B (3:12)

Yeah. Michael Sheen's House of Games. Yeah.

A (3:14)

Michael Sheen's House of Games, who is

B (3:16)

also insert over D Traitors, the show

A (3:19)

that is now so big that its casting announcement gets a massive promo.

B (3:24)

And we can lead our podcast with it.

A (3:26)

Yes. Yeah.

B (3:27)

And by the way, also at House of Games, Angela Rippon did an interview with Michael and myself for the one show, of course. And it was just after we'd recorded our breakfast TV thing for our members. You know, our history of breakfast tv. And there was an unbelievable story about her and Michael Parkinson, David Frost and Anna Ford all being sent each other's salary details. And I said, Angela, that can't have been true. She said, not only was that true, she said, there's so much worse that I could tell you. I'm not gonna tell you everything she said because she said, I recorded everything that happened. She said, I've got tape recordings, I've got notes of everything that happened. If ever I write a book, then I'm gonna put all of it in there. So if any publishers listening, Angela Ripper has all of this stuff.

A (4:15)

I'll write a book deal immediately.

B (4:16)

Immediately.

A (4:16)

Because I want to hear any breakfast tv. Snake Pit is my favorite favourite happy place.

B (4:21)

Yeah. But for non members on that, essentially those four big beasts were all sent each other salary details.

A (4:28)

And that was just one of the mess ups of that show.

B (4:31)

And their salaries were not the Same as each other. I wonder if you can guess which gender was paid an awful lot more than the other one.

A (4:37)

It was the 80s. Although even now. Okay, we better get on to Celebrity traitors. Yeah, chop me a thesaurus. Cause I'm gonna need new words of saying incredible booking. I have to say shout out to the people, as always, who, when this list came out, said, there aren't any celebrities on it.

B (4:54)

Okay, I know.

A (4:55)

I'm so sorry that you don't participate in, like, contemporary entertainment culture, but you don't need to advertise it. Please feel free for us not to hear from you about this. There are celebrities on this list.

B (5:07)

Yeah, shout out to the who crew.

A (5:09)

Oh, my God, I can't stand it. Okay, there are celebrities on this list, and there are some absolute bangers in here.

B (5:16)

It's interesting. With 21 people, you start looking through it and you go, okay, that's good. And then you look through it again and you think, oh, I've missed them. Oh, I missed them.

A (5:23)

There's so many.

B (5:24)

Yeah, yeah.

A (5:25)

And you think of all the potential alliances and potential buddy movies.

B (5:30)

How should we do it? Should we just sort of go through them? Cause some people might not know the whole list, but certainly if you do know it, you'll want to know who's gonna win.

A (5:37)

There's a lot of comedians.

B (5:39)

Yes. Too many.

A (5:40)

I think it's interesting that they've put both Rob Becker and Romish Ranganathan in, who obviously do very many things together, But I sort of feel now light entertainment. It's like Romish is now. It's almost like he's one of the building blocks of life itself. You know, when you're on a planet, they say, well, there is water. So life can be supported in light entertainment. Now it's like, is Romesh on it? Okay, life can be supported.

B (6:01)

Here's the problem with Romesh is he's brilliant, and he's brilliant at everything he does, and he's a really, really nice guy. But. But yes, it's one of those things that it has a ubiquity to it. I think the interesting thing with Rob and Romish is they think we'll put them in. It's always fun to put a partnership in there, like a double act or a husband and wife. I don't think enough people know they're a partnership. I don't think enough people have seen Robb vs. Romesh and those things. So I think it's just two more comics to go with Joe Lycett and James Acaster. All very different comics.

A (6:34)

But I don't.

B (6:35)

Yeah.

A (6:35)

They can't do that thing where they make one of them a traitor and one. I think it would. I actually think that's too obvious. Yeah. I can't think. I don't think they can do that thing where they make one the traitor and one.

B (6:44)

But the problem is, because you've got nothing to hold onto. In those early weeks, people would assume they've done that.

A (6:48)

Yes.

B (6:48)

Anyway, so it's slightly a hiding to nothing. I mean, Romish would be delighted to be voted out after a day he's got. He's so busy. But that is the thing with Romish. He does. He does do everything, but he does everything well.

A (6:57)

Yeah.

B (6:58)

You know, it's. What are you gonna do? Acaster will be fascinating. Anyone who has a public image which feels a slightly heightened version of themselves, or I think James slightly does, although it's not particularly heightened version of himself, I think it's fascinating to see them after a couple of days in that house. I think the same way that we have with Joe Wilkinson. But, yeah, I think having four male comics there I think is. I understand why you're not gonna say no to James, you're not gonna say no to Joe, and then the Rob Romish thing as a partnership. But I think actually Joanne McNally might be the most successful of those comics.

A (7:35)

Yes.

B (7:35)

Cause I think fewer people know her. I mean, lots of people do know her. She's got a lot of profile in the last couple of years, but I think people will really fall in love with her. And I think she won't take any nonsense from her.

A (7:46)

She could be a bit of a dark horse, I think. But, like, actually, Sharon Rooney, I think she could be a bit of a dark horse.

B (7:50)

Yes. Everyone who meets Sharon Rooney falls in love with her.

A (7:53)

Yeah. And I think she could be very, very good.

B (7:55)

Ingrid, when the list came out, just went, I cannot believe they've got Sharon Rooney. I was like, yeah, no, I think it's good booking. She goes, but why would she do this? It's really, really interesting that she would do that, you know, to write literary novels. And then I said, I think that is Sally Rooney.

A (8:13)

Oh, my gosh.

B (8:14)

Yeah.

A (8:14)

That would have been the most hilarious booking of all time. Yeah.

B (8:17)

Sally reunion.

A (8:18)

I know. It's. When I saw King Kenny, I was like, oh, my God, they've not got Dalglish.

B (8:21)

Yeah.

A (8:22)

I would be unable to speak still now if Kenny Dalglish was going on it.

B (8:26)

So King Kenny is an influencer.

A (8:27)

Yeah.

B (8:28)

And it tells you about the march of time that it's acceptable to call yourself King Kenny?

A (8:33)

Yeah, that's the new King Kenny in town.

B (8:37)

Is that okay now?

A (8:38)

Well, I am shocked, but apparently it's okay.

B (8:40)

Yeah. I've only just got over there being a new Kylie. Now we've got a new King Kenny as well.

A (8:45)

Yeah, I know that still feels sacrilegious. To new Kylie. So King Kenny a little bit in the Nico Amalana. They even do stuff together, don't they? They're in some sort of various YouTube.

B (8:56)

And one of those guys gonna have to survive the first few days if she wants to go all the way.

A (9:01)

Because as we always say, this is very, very different to the civilian version because they know who each other is. And if they don't actually know who you are, then they might not necessarily think then there is less natural deference to you than there would be in the civilian version when no one knows who anybody is. Again, it's interesting having in the civilian versions where you can't to even have had one line on Casualty. People think you're the master of deviousness. You have to completely hide that you ever once played an extra in something in case people are like they're an actor. Well, obviously here we have many actors

B (9:36)

and we really do have many actors. We have. The Celia Imrie of the piece is Richard E. Grant.

A (9:42)

Yes, I saw. His daughter said, my daughter says I'm incapable of hiding anything I feel about anybody. Which is certainly true in my experience.

B (9:51)

But that's what you want there, don't you? Given some of the people he's in there with. You wanna hear his opinion on that?

A (9:57)

Yeah. Well, I wonder whether you will. I think there's a touch of the Stephen Fries to that booking, I must say, and to how the performance will play out.

B (10:05)

Okay, that's interesting.

A (10:07)

I feel.

B (10:08)

I think there's a central quintet who I feel the house is gonna revolve around. And that is Sheen. Sheen, obviously from Michael Sheen's House of Games.

A (10:20)

Yeah.

B (10:21)

By the way, when we did our Q and A episode the other day and we're doing people who always get called the wrong names and Gabby Rosin and Gabby Logan and so on. I forgot, of course, that Michael Sheen and Martin Sheen is the absolute exemplar of that.

A (10:33)

It's in a Times headline maybe this morning. I read a Times article about this cast list this morning recording on Monday morning and it says Martin Sheen in the headline, which, again, I'm not disappointed it's Michael Sheen at all, but Martin Sheen would have been.

B (10:47)

Can you imagine? So I think there's five people in the middle of this who were the sort of, the sort of middle aged bedrock of this thing around which the ships will sail. Michael Sheen, Amal Rajan and by the way, all big personalities.

A (11:02)

Yeah, we knew he was on it. God knows he can't keep a secret.

B (11:04)

Yeah. Miranda Hart, who we'll get on to Julie Hesmondhouch.

A (11:10)

Love her.

B (11:11)

Ross Kemp. Now that's.

A (11:13)

I mean, that is a booking.

B (11:14)

That is a booking.

A (11:14)

Can I just say that Ross Kemp is a mega booking.

B (11:17)

Yeah. And that's got everything. Cause you've got fame, you have got a personality type that doesn't necessarily conform to the norms and you've got someone who will take the traitors very, very, very personally in a Joe Mahler type way, which is exactly what you want.

A (11:31)

And also the most recent documentary that he did, which was sort of about incels and things like that, it's really interesting. It's one of the most interesting things I've seen on a documentary because kind of when these documentaries happen, they've pursued a certain line and you know what you're doing and you know what you're making really, before you turn up in the moment, someone tells him some statistics about incels which effectively completely pull the rug under from the documentary that he thinks he's making. And he actually, rather than say, right, well we won't use that because unfortunately we've gone quite a long way here, he completely sort of unpicks the whole thing in the moment and says, okay, well, I'm just changing my preconceptions completely. And actually to do that live in the interview, you know, it's obviously not being broadcast. But the moment he found it out, that is someone who actually might play the game well, because the whole problem with this game is that you do go mad in the castle. You get these kind of ide fils and you think it's this person, it's this person, it's this person. And you can't get off it or you don't look at the right people to see him do that in the moment, which is very unusual for a documentary maker these days. In the type of documentaries you watch, I think that shows he's quite a sort of independent thinker.

B (12:40)

But also, who is the alpha of the house? I do think the alpha of the house is either Ross or Julie Hesmondhouch, because she again is one of those people. Everyone knows who she is, of course, known best as an actor, but I think people have seen her enough as herself to know what sort of human being she is. But I think she is somebody who everyone is gonna gravitate towards and everyone is gonna orbit around. I think that Kemp and Hesmondhalge, if either of those are a traitor, I think it's. Imagine if they make Boss Kemp a traitor.

A (13:09)

I want him to be a traitor hunter, personally, I have to say.

B (13:12)

Agree with that.

A (13:13)

Can I just say, Geri hall, interestingly, I love this chapter for her. She's been released from that marriage to, you know, media's messy bitch. Rupert Murdoch. Rupert Murdoch, remember story, which was about two or three years ago, all about the Murdoch succession drama. And there was so many amazing details in it, one of which was that after he got rid of her by email, many months later, she discovered that the security cameras in her house were still beaming back the footage to Fox News headquarters. And Mick Jagger's security guys have to come in and take it all out of her. Can I just say I love this chapter for her? Run wild, my Texan queen. You deserve this.

B (13:53)

She feels like someone, though, who, if it's not fun after 24 hours, will just go, I'm actually gonna shoot off.

A (14:00)

Really? I think she feels like a trooper who can see some really bad situations through.

B (14:03)

Oh, yeah, maybe. Listen, listen. I guess if you can stay married to Ruth and Murdoch that long, you can stick out in a castle for six days. They've gone in today, by the way. They'll sort of be going in as we're speaking. They're filming it this week.

A (14:16)

Bella Ramsey.

B (14:17)

Yeah.

A (14:18)

I mean, that is huge. Last of Us is basically almost the biggest show. You know, it's one of HBO's biggest shows that's ever, ever, ever been.

B (14:26)

Well, yeah, there'll be some names on this list that perhaps some people don't know who are actually sort of among the biggest names.

A (14:31)

Myhala.

B (14:32)

Myhallah.

A (14:33)

Can't wait to see that on a short slate from. Cannot wait. What? Like, sorry, everybody, Some of the letters need to be right. She is an absolute queen. I mean, I want her to be a traitor. Is it just because from industry you want her to be a traitor?

B (14:47)

Yes. I don't think you can bring in an American and make them a traitor.

A (14:50)

Why can't you?

B (14:51)

I don't know. I just think. I think it feels off.

A (14:54)

Does it?

B (14:55)

Yeah, I think so.

A (14:55)

That's interesting.

B (14:56)

I think it's sort of unacceptable. I think they want to be.

A (14:58)

Well, I think they need to be unexpected because people have already, you know,

B (15:02)

I think that would be expected. I think they're going, oh, of course they're gonna make you a traitor because of the role that she plays.

A (15:07)

Bella Ramsey is very, very interesting. Neurodivergent last year, do you remember? Kat Burns is also sort of neurodivergent and she said it helped her to be very sort of cool and calm and much more detached. Bella Ramsey said, heightened sensitivity to social cues and micro expressions, insane levels of visual perception. Amazing is the way that their particular brand of neuro divergence has been described. Self described, by the way, so could be an excellent player and I think will be.

B (15:37)

We have got Jerry hall can take under her wing Leanne Pinnock and Maya Jammer. That's gonna be a group of people who will enjoy each other's company. Surely. There's so many people in this show. Every time you look down the list, I'm still missing a couple of my favorites. Who I'm gonna get to, who I'm get to.

A (15:53)

Oh, my God. There's one massive favourite of mine.

B (15:56)

Oh, really? Well, listen, should we do that?

A (15:58)

There's two.

B (15:58)

Who's your favorite?

A (15:59)

There's two massive favourites. First of all, our stablemate, Hannah Fry.

B (16:03)

Correct.

A (16:03)

I think this is absolutely great for her. I think she's about to blow up.

B (16:06)

Even more amazing, she is very much the Nick Muhammad of the piece and also, you know, sort of in a similar role to Nick Muhammad as well,

A (16:14)

but less likely to actually maybe get in her head in the last minute.

B (16:17)

I don't know anyone can.

A (16:19)

Anyone can.

B (16:20)

That's the beauty of the traitors. Funnily enough, the cleverer you are, the harder you fall.

A (16:25)

Oh, for definite? For definite. And the more you're perceived as a sort of automatic authority figure.

B (16:30)

It can be, but certainly, you know, if, for example, there's a head, you know, Professor Hannah Fry and Ross Kemp are going, you know, knocking chunks out of each other across the eviction table. That I would like to ask.

A (16:42)

Well, I don't know who I'd call it on for there. I mean, exactly, but I can tell you that Mr. James Blanche.

B (16:48)

Correct.

A (16:49)

What?

B (16:49)

Those are the two. I was leaving.

A (16:50)

Okay. I love him. I almost wanna group him in with the comedians. Perhaps we should have.

B (16:54)

Yes. I was gonna group him in with the Rajen Kemp heart axis, but I think actually that he sits somewhere outside of that.

A (17:03)

Yeah, he will. Not inside his own head particularly, I don't think.

B (17:08)

No, but he will, I think, charm people, as you say. He has the capacity to be funny, but he also has the capacity to say, well, the thing about me is I'm just a simple musician. I'm not a comedian, I'm not an actor. I'm just a guy in a castle. And this is how I see it. Which is a useful way to play it.

A (17:24)

Yeah. He's been in the army, can deal with the sort of terrible light entertainment privations of this show.

B (17:29)

Yes. Ross Kemp can talk to him about being in the Army.

A (17:31)

Yeah.

B (17:33)

Ross Kent can talk to all of these people about something.

A (17:35)

Yes, absolutely.

B (17:36)

One of the people here I wasn't aware of. I am now. Cause I've looked at his work, is Sebastian Croft, who will bring a constituency to it.

A (17:43)

Yeah. Because big in his demographic, you know, actor, musician. But as we said just before, it's difficult when you're one of the younger people. There is a sort of natural age deference in the show, or it certainly was last time, to kind of hang on through those. Cause if they don't know who you are, they're rather more comfortable with dispatching you. But then, you know, lots of people who didn't know who Cat Burns was.

B (18:07)

Yeah, of course.

A (18:07)

And it depends what role they have in the game. Yeah. I mean, that is a big miss for me, I have to say, about this booking list. You know, Now I know it's not Kenny Dalgalish. There's no one from sport.

B (18:18)

Yeah, yeah.

A (18:19)

And I think that's. It's a shame they didn't have someone from sport. I might have lost a comedian and had someone from sport, to be perfectly honest.

B (18:26)

Yes, I know exactly what I mean. And by the way. Cause of the way these things work, they probably had one three days beforehand. And I've heard the names of a couple of people who pulled out who would have been a lot of fun, I think. But I think they've landed upon a very interesting group. And there's enough people in there. The James Blunts of this world, the Hannah Fryes of this world, who, you know, are just going to be great characters in there and gonna bring an incredible presence to it.

A (18:54)

Maybe they've got a sport back up. Because there's a definitely one in there that I think could go to pieces and not stay the distance. So, you know, maybe they've got someone that they're gonna bring in, just in case.

B (19:04)

That's interesting. Do you wanna be quoted on who you think that is?

A (19:07)

No.

B (19:08)

Okay. Okay, I gotcha. So I'm thinking I'm the producer of Celebrity Traitors. I'm not. This is a thought experiment. Honestly, I wouldn't be here if I was the producer of it.

A (19:21)

Above all, you are professional.

B (19:22)

I'd be up at the castle in Scotland. But if I was choosing the traitors, who would I go for here? I'd definitely go for Sheen for sure. Martin Sheen. I would have maybe even Michael. I would go for Sheen. I'd go for a youngster and I'd go for Jerry Hall. So maybe I'd have Michael Sheen, Maya Jammer, Jerry hall as my traitor. Something like that. Just to start with.

A (19:45)

Just an unbelievable trio. I cannot believe they've not worked together before.

B (19:49)

Yeah. As I say, I don't think they'll split up Rob and Romish.

A (19:54)

I hope they don't because it's too. I think that is too.

B (19:56)

Well, because it's much fun.

A (19:57)

These people are all entertainment literate. So they do all know about Robin Romish having a double act.

B (20:02)

Yeah. But I really want the two of them to, you know, suspect each other but both be innocent. That's the funniest storyline there.

A (20:09)

Agreed.

B (20:09)

If they're both assuming that one of them is a traitor and, you know, they. I imagine that some of the buttons they will push, some of the little tasks that people have to do, I imagine they will try and turn Romish and Robb's suspicions on each other. But is that who I would go for? I would definitely go for Sheen. Although he'd be funny as a. You have to think who's funnier as a faithful. And Sheen would be a funny faithful because he gets very, very, very passionate. And, you know, we've seen his rousing speeches before.

A (20:40)

Oh, yeah. I mean, I want to see him lead a faithful's revolt, but as a. Even better doing it as a traitor.

B (20:45)

As a traitor. I think that's great, isn't it? And also he would sort of relish

A (20:49)

it is the truth. Yes. It's interesting what they do. I mean, and we already know that the contestants last time were turned onto the idea that, oh, hang on. They're not gonna make all the traitors like all white or all men or they're just not going to do that. It's interesting whether I think they might be able to just change things and flip things a bit because anything when it's become just too expected.

B (21:14)

Well, they could definitely do three women for sure.

A (21:17)

Yes.

B (21:17)

If you had Julie Hazmond Haudch, Joanne McNally and Jerry hall as your traitors right from the beginning, I mean, you know, that feels potent.

A (21:28)

They could do that. I think being funny, we know, as another sort of just to go off on another tangent. Being funny, we know, is very helpful because it's a great deflection tool. But it's a kind of misrepresentation of what Alan Carr did in winning that show. To think that's all he did. Cause he was an unbelievable reader of each situation and he just made it look easy. But he was a deadly reader of situations. And so you have to actually also be that as well as just.

B (21:56)

Yeah. I think if they're gonna have a comic as a traitor, I don't think they can have Romish because they'll be aware of that ubiquity thing. And if suddenly he's right in the heart of your thing, that's an impossibility. I don't think they can have Robb because of what we're talking about. That is funnier if neither of them are there. Joann McNally. I think they definitely could. Acaster would be much funnier trying to find a traitor.

A (22:17)

Agreed.

B (22:18)

Than being a traitor. So Joanne McNally or Joe Lycett would be the two mates you think might be traitors. What a great thing to. This is as close as television ever gets to, like, the World cup or something.

A (22:29)

I agree. I do think the other thing. One other thing I wanted to say, which is that just trying to remember back what it was like watching it last time. There was deference to Stephen Fry because he's Stephen Fry and it's like a particular stripe of National Treasure. There was deference to Jonathan Ross because they felt he was a complete sort of master of understanding the game. He'd watched every single thing. You know, he fully understood the game. But in other ways it was interesting. Cause I think they slightly struggle, people who are famous with fating kind of one over anyone else. So whereas Joe Marla would insist celebrated as a traitor hunter in the civilian version of the game and would have been the hero of the bar afterwards, et cetera. They're not brilliant at sort of going all behind one person.

B (23:17)

Yes. Because.

A (23:18)

But I love the buddy movies of it. I just keep thinking like, oh, my God. Imagine if, you know, like Jerry hall and James Acaster become developer. Or, you know, obviously James Blunton Ross Kemp, just develop a Blunt and Kemp. Please. If they develop Blunt and Kemp, if they develop a sort of Mahler Muhammad style bromance, I will be. Or my Harla and like Judy Hesmondhouse, something like that. That's great.

B (23:42)

Oh, my God. Yeah.

A (23:42)

It could be. You want to see those alliances that you have not seen before.

B (23:47)

I feel like the female side of this cast list has an awful lot more surprises and an awful lot more potential. I think the male side is very funny and there are some great big characters there, but I think in the female side of this, there are some very, very interesting personality types. Listen, it's gonna be magnificent. Of course it is. And the lovely thing is we've got like five more years of this at least, surely.

A (24:15)

Oh, yeah.

B (24:16)

Unless this sort mess it up.

A (24:17)

Definitely.

B (24:18)

Unless Romish messes it up for us all.

A (24:21)

It's amazing how good they are at keeping it secret now when you see how big it is and that, you know, they're at the airport getting every photo of them coming off the planes.

B (24:30)

It's. Well, that's why they've released it this year.

A (24:32)

Yeah, of course. To have control.

B (24:34)

Yeah. Cause otherwise all you got to do is at Inverness airport and you know, every single person who's on it. Because no celebrity is being driven to Inverness unless they live in Fort William,

A (24:45)

which I just don't think Jerry does.

B (24:47)

Yeah, I don't think she does. I believe she lives in a fort. I do not believe she lives in Fort William.

A (24:54)

Richard. I couldn't pick it, but who do you think could win this?

B (24:57)

I mean, it sort of depends who the traitors are, but let's assume there's a 50, 50 chance a traitor wins or faithful wins anyway, which the statistics are not crazily different from. I would say. Can I pick three people?

A (25:11)

Yeah.

B (25:12)

James Blunt.

A (25:13)

I was gonna say. Yeah.

B (25:15)

Joanne McNally.

A (25:16)

Yep.

B (25:16)

Julie Hasmonhalch. Those are my three. I'm not seeing anyone outside that. Professor Hannah Fry will be great, but I think, again, she will be too dangerous for people.

A (25:29)

If anyone, as we know, who is recruited late to become a traitor.

B (25:33)

Yeah, that's what you want.

A (25:34)

Any of those would be the strongest position. And any of those could take it then, particularly as someone. I think someone like Julie Hesmondhouse. Especially if she's functioned as some kind of slightly mother like figure within the kind of reality TV family.

B (25:47)

And, you know, it's, listen, we must never bet. And just a reminder that, you know, we predicted who was going to win the last one and we did not predict Alan Carr. But I don't suppose anybody in Britain predicted Alan Carr.

A (25:57)

No.

B (25:57)

Certainly after the first episode. And that's the joy of the format.

A (26:01)

Yeah. Well, I must say we will be talking about it nonstop when it's happening, which will probably be in October, I

B (26:07)

should think, after the break. James Bond and the Cranberries united at last.

A (26:18)

This episode is brought to you by Lloyd's, who you can rely on to keep life running smoothly now. You know, what isn't celebrated enough is the behind the scenes work that makes successful entertainment seem so smooth.

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A (26:43)

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B (26:56)

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A (27:06)

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B (27:18)

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L theanine for both kiddos and grown ups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help your racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep solutions for the whole family@olli.com that's o l l y dot com. Welcome back, everybody. Now, as promised, we're gonna be talking about Linga, a song you might have heard all over the place recently. It's 33 years old. It's a Cranberries song. And I think the backstory of this song was that it was one of the very first ones, if not the first song they sort of wrote.

B (28:43)

And yes, I think Dolores O'Reardon wrote it when she was 17.

A (28:46)

Yeah. I think she' Dumped at a disco or something or. Yeah. Anyway.

B (28:50)

Which was the original title.

A (28:51)

Yeah. It's now getting millions of streams a day and I think it's so interesting. I want to talk about what happens. How do songs suddenly seem like they're everywhere in the air and have a big cultural moment?

B (29:04)

Given how many big songs there were in the 90s, how come just a couple of them really, really rise to the top and become enormous hits?

A (29:12)

Yeah. A big part of it normally is sync, which is, you know, the soundtracking of things that you might be watching or what have you. So Linga was in. Because we should say there are bigger Cranberries hits which were also have done very well out of sync, which is something like Dreams used to be the bigger one.

B (29:32)

Zombie.

A (29:32)

The biggest of all, probably Zombie. Yeah. And those still, by the way, have a life. I mean, I saw something in the cinema the other day and thought, all right, Dreams is back on the trailer thing. But Linga was in Summer I Turned Pretty, which became a huge hit. And also, and this is one of the big drivers is it was in Love Story, the Ryan Murphy thing about Carolyn Bessette and John F. Kennedy Jr. So if you look, Billboard have got a thing called the top TV songs and you can see. Yeah, it's really. It's quite hard to find on their sort of. And Apple actually do this things charts of what are the big things. And Love Story totally dominated that chart. And they had. I think Linga was only the only thing bigger than it was. Fade into youo Mazzy Star from Love Story as well.

B (30:21)

I didn't know that.

A (30:22)

I know.

B (30:22)

That takes me back.

A (30:23)

I know. Yeah. I know it does take. Really takes you back. But actually, in the case of Linga, a big part of speaking to people sort of all around this, a big part of it is TikTok. In the case of Linga, there's something like Stranger Things where, you know it's to do with sync and it's Kate Bush.

B (30:39)

Yeah. Running up that hill.

A (30:41)

That's it. I think we're alone now. All of those things. So part of the reason it explodes is that for obvious reasons, we all know there is so much content, there's more than there's ever been and people are soundtracking their own lives with this stuff and posting them. And when these things get put into playlists and you know Your Spotify algorithm notices never getting skipped. Then they push it even further. Netflix shows help because they have the most eyeballs, probably. But if you look at something that happened, like, I don't know, heated rivalry, which was on that Canadian stream, a crave, but it went to hbo. The thing. What happened to tattoo then, where they had tattoo in a sort of club scene, and it became absolutely huge. So talking to people who are sort of involved in this, it's really interesting. I find the moment in the drama that it's played makes a massive difference to how big the song gets.

B (31:33)

So, like the end of Grey's Anatomy,

A (31:35)

for example, that's the absolute. Yeah, that's an absolute gold standard of this. Somewhere in I Turn Pretty, it was really in a scene. I don't know if you've seen the show, if you haven't seen the show, it doesn't matter. But it was in a scene, a sort of breakupy type of yearning. That word. We're gonna come back to yearning. It feels like we've been talking about yearning for two years. But it's just the kind of big zeitgeist word of the time. In Love Story, it was the morning after Carolyn Bessette and John F. Kennedy Jr. First woke up after having slept together. So it was the next day. Tearjerkers really help if you can get your artist's song on a two minute emotional scene. This is why the kind of big sync moments used to be things like the John Lewis ad or the X Factor finale or something. Like the Big Brother finale used to be this kind of. So you might have a band like, I don't know, like Elba or something, who might be sort of naturally indisposed, should we say, to having their music on Big Brother or whatever. But it's like, sorry, you're getting a two minute montage of all the best things in the. You know, the highs and the lows. It can move it to number one the next day. And I was thinking about this and thinking, oh, my God, there's certain songs I can't hear without being completely taken back to the sink moment. And actually, for football fans of a certain age, if you want to listen to cast, walk away, walk away.

B (32:58)

That's what I was about to say. We're so old.

A (33:00)

Okay. We're so old. Okay, fine. So they played that when the BBC did a montage at the end of England's run in Euro 96 when they go out in the semis. And I am still completely back there when I hear that song. And actually shivers. I literally this morning on the tube on the way here, watched it. You can see it on YouTube. We'll put it in the show notes. And if you saw me genuinely shed a tear because it's so evocative. And actually what I'd forgotten is that Des Lyneham says, you better remember where you were, where you were watching this tonight. Because in 30 years time someone will probably ask you. It's 30 years to the day. Now that sync moment of Cast Walk Away is. I cannot hear that song without just.

B (33:42)

I agree 100%.

A (33:43)

You know, Terry Venables put his head in his hand. It's so evocative.

B (33:47)

So that's good. Cause I thought, well, I don't know what you're gonna say. But then I'm gonna follow up.

A (33:50)

I don't have to say that by

B (33:51)

talking about Walk Away.

A (33:53)

Also. We have so many montages now and ever since everything's gone digital, it's incredibly, I don't wanna say it's incredibly easy to make a good one. Cause it's always hard to make something great. But it was so skilled to make those montages, particularly at the end of tournaments or in the case of this, at the end of, you know, the national sides run in a tournament. And to make them, and to make them affecting is a huge skill. And people really looked for, I mean not to that one, but in general you looked forward to them because they were, you know, let's talk about one we could all enjoy the one at the end of Wimbledon.

B (34:23)

But also anyone listening to this who's not from England would laugh their heads off at that, by the way. So for anyone from England, you can watch that and you'll be crying. Anyone else have a little laugh, you'll be crying. Laughter, oh my God, you will love it anyway.

A (34:38)

But what's happened is that because the whole business of soundtracks in general has completely changed. In the old days, soundtracks would sell millions of copies. You got a great. People would go and buy all this. Now you see the film or watch the episode and you're like, oh my God. And you can stream it on your way out of the cinema or the second the credits roll. So it's difficult for record labels who are thinking how in this era where there's more content than anything and these songs can blow up from whatever.

B (35:04)

Well, like Saturday Night Fever, the soundtrack is one of the biggest selling vinyl albums in history. So if you're that record company, you know, BG's and Yvonne Ellman, all sorts of people on that there's hundreds of millions of pounds to be made from that soundtrack of that movie. And that industry, as you say, has disappeared and needs to be replaced with something.

A (35:23)

And you've got to be. I mean, in the new Devil Wears Prada, when it becomes a sort of plot point, it's amazing. There's a Lady Gaga and Dochi sort of collaboration, but it's part of the story in a way. Well, not the sort of Dochi collaboration, but the Gaga bit is actually. She's in it, but it's really interesting. So the record labels are trying to be sort of more creative and they're sort of creating soundtracks and music concepts themselves and then using that as a trigger or a centerpiece around which to develop a script. So it's kind of totally flipped because you might as well use the money to kind of develop things that way. Going back to Linga, I think that nonetheless, there has to be something about the song itself that speaks to the new times.

B (36:07)

Yeah, it really does.

A (36:09)

And there is something very dreamy and wistful about this song. And it's emotionally raw and it's complicated. And again, those words, longing, yearning that we keep. I mean, they have been the words of the last two years. But there is, and I think we have talked a little bit about this before, that there is, you know, Gen Z and Gen A think there's an innocence to the 90s. And whether or not you felt that when you were living through it, they feel there is an innocence to it.

B (36:35)

There wasn't when we got knocked out of the Euros, I'll tell you that.

A (36:38)

There was a loss of all. It was the end of everything. It was the moment of fall. Anyhow, it's interesting. Breakup songs and what's happened to breakup songs to some degree, breakup songs these days. We know that we're now living in an era very, very much dominated by female artists. They're quite angry. Breakup songs nowadays, they often involve another famous person or a person who the audience is able to sort of pass all the lines and think it's about. There's something very different and there is an innocence that they feel that speaks to people in something like Linga. And these songs where people go back to them and that's why they're kind of. It's another reason why people think that there's something pure about a time that we don't live in now.

B (37:23)

Yes. I think there's also an ambiguity to the lyrics. If you literally just cherry pick a very small amount of that chorus, it doesn't have to be a breakout song. It can be a love song. And if you've got a song that could be a breakout song and a love song, then everyone can use it in any situation. And people do. There is something which is never spoken about when we talk about why does something go viral or why is something so massive, you know, why does a book suddenly take off? Why does a film suddenly take off? Sometimes things are just better than other things. But we never talk about that. We never talk about the fact that lingo. I remember first coming up, lingo and just right off the blocks. It was an enormous hit everywhere in the world. My brother's band, Suede, were doing a US tour. They tried to crack America a few times, like a lot of the Brit pop bands, and none of them managed it. But Suede went over and were doing this massive tour and they took the Cranberries as support. And halfway through the tour, Linga went enormous and they had to swap round.

A (38:20)

No.

B (38:21)

Who was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (38:22)

On the billing.

B (38:22)

Yeah. I mean, can you imagine? But the song hit immediately. As I say, Dolores O'Reardon, who's no longer with us, of course, wrote it when she was 17. That band, you know, there's a reason why they've got three songs that have got over a billion streams on Spotify, right? They write unbelievably brilliant songs that have no barriers to you enjoying them, you know. And so sometimes people, you know, we're Talking to Paul McCartney this week for our Q and A thing. And by the way, thank you to everyone for their amazing questions for that. But again, there's a reason the Beatles got big. They just wrote better songs than other people. I mean, isn't it.

A (39:02)

It's, you know, something that is interesting sometimes. That's the thing when you talk to people about this is that they say, who are very heavily involved in this, is that this, all of this stuff, this, this kind of exhuming and revival and kind of making very current, again, a song that's over 30 years old. It's all song led and not artist led. So actually they like the song. They're not particularly interested in who the artist was, which to me is sad because, I mean, and Dolores of an amazing person. And it's very sad. It was a terribly sad ending. And she died at 46 not that long ago. A few years, you know, probably seven or eight years ago. And again, even with something like Stranger Things, they didn't suddenly become completely fascinated by Kate Bush, which, by the way, I mean, of all the people to be fascinated by. She's a very fascinating person. She probably loved it that they didn't. Yes, she's quite happy to just, you know, to not have everybody kind of up in her business. But sometimes you seize it and as you say, you know, like Sophie Ellis Bexter's Murder on the Dance Floor, which again, that is a sync moment of extraordinary. Like it's all a pump. But look what happened. It was enormous in Saltburn. And off the back of that, she is touring the US for the first time. Everything can sort of change from these moments. It's extraordinary that you can just. It can bubble back up again.

B (40:19)

But again, they tend to, you know, you look at a song, I always think the most fascinating song of all. Well, a sort of fascinating song is Mr. Brightside. Cause it's been in the US, UK top 100 for over five years now. But Iris by Goo Goo Dolls I think is even more.

A (40:33)

That is fascinating. Absolute key.

B (40:34)

One of these, which is, I mean, that's, you know, been in the. Apart from Christmases, that's been in the UK charts for the last 80 weeks in a row. You would recognize it if you hear it. It doesn't have the word, the name Iris in it at any point. And so it's almost impossible to sort of recall it in your head what it is. But it's one of those ones that was a staple of X Factor and you know, Pop Idol and all the American shows as well. And. Yeah, just one of those songs that is now gonna be around forever. And that's the thing. I think we've spoken very briefly before about the canon of classical music and how that is slightly set in stone. I know things change, but, you know, your Beethovens, your Brahms, all of that lot. And that's what is going to happen to popular music. And now these songs are sort of jockeying for position. And it's not gonna be. Albums are not gonna be the canon. It's gonna be. Songs will be the canon. Three minute songs will be the canon. And running up that hill will now forever be in that canon. Cause it's poked its nose above so will murder on the dance floor so will linger now I think so will Iris by Goo Goo Dolls. Those songs will be around for 100 years, you know, 200 years. In the same way that Mozart is. And I'm not conflating the musicianship or anything like that. I'm just talking about, you know, the art form that we have had. We now have enough of it. We can just fold Back and fold back and absolutely just choose whichever our favorite bits are. And because so much music production now kind of does hark back to previous eras, you know, that idea that a song ages take On Me by Aha. Which sounds, you know, you could absolutely release tomorrow. That's gonna be around for 100 years. Mr. Blue sky is going to be, you know, Bohemian Rhapsody is going to be. There's just. These songs are now absolutely taking their place. It's hard for newer music to break through, of course, but I.

A (42:19)

This is what you said.

B (42:20)

I think that's where we are.

A (42:21)

But people. It's really weird whether or not they remember or they have some weird subconscious inherited memory of the video, which to us was iconic, but which much younger people have obviously probably never seen it. But all, like so many walking videos on TikTok are to bittersweet Symphony, which in itself is using Mick Jagger and Keith Richard sort of composition. But all of them that. Yeah, there's something about, like, walking that people think, oh, I put that. This goes with this.

B (42:50)

Yeah, that's exactly right. And it'd be interesting to see if in that canon. Cause, you know, us growing up, the 50s and 60s and lots of the Motown stuff and early rock and roll felt like part of the canon. And it's interesting to see actually if they end up being part of this or whether that begins somewhere around the late 60s or something. We'll see. We shall see. But by and large, I think this new generation are choosing the right songs.

A (43:16)

Oh, yeah. I mean, these are all really terrific.

B (43:18)

Yeah. Should we talk a little bit about the new Bond? Which actually seems like cogs are starting to whir and things are starting to happen.

A (43:26)

We get asked about this all the time. And because it is obviously like the rolling entertainment story, despite it can be an incredibly low information story always at any point in British cultural life. It's been a year since Amazon acquired the full rights to Bond for sort of a billion. They'd already bought MGM Studios. But Courtney Valenti, who runs film at Amazon at Cinemacon, when they talked with the exhibitors about all the big things that are coming up, she did talk about some of the big things that are coming up, but she said, you know, she knows everyone's waiting to announce who's gonna play Bond, but they are taking time to do it properly. So good idea. I will say they are doing it properly because it's going to be produced by David Heyman and Amy Pascal, who are. He's David Heyman's bridge. Did all the Harry Potter, Amy Pascal's legendary US producer. We know it's Gonn directed by Denis Villeneuve. So that's cool. Yes, that's good. It's gonna be written by Steven Knight.

B (44:19)

I mean that's really cool. Who was Peaky Blinders?

A (44:22)

Peaky Blinders. You always do get help to varying degrees when you're doing a Bond film from the writers Neil Purvis and Robert Wade, who are exhaustive franchise experts. I think they've co written the last seven.

B (44:34)

Again. They always do a bit of, you know, like Phoebe Waller Bridge is writing the new Bond. No,

A (44:40)

someone might do script touches or whatever. So they are making all the right moves, but they do not have a lead actor yet and they obviously need a long term casting choice. Cause one thing we do know is that people still seem shocked now when you say, well, there won't be a film till 2028 because you're like, well, how come there won't be? I mean, I suppose they could get it out for what, Christmas? No, they can't get it out for Christmas next year. I mean, I don't think they could. Maybe they could.

B (45:05)

I was talking to someone. My God, this is a sidebar. But a film I'm, I'd say even more excited about the ghosts movie, which is gonna be out, which is. That is not taking forever. That's gonna be out, I think in time for Halloween.

A (45:18)

Oh, well, that's cool.

B (45:19)

How exciting is that?

A (45:20)

That's incredibly exciting. This is a slightly different kettle of fish. In general, I get you. It feels like we've been having this conversation for years. There are many people. It's definitely been all the way back to Idris Elba, Tom Hiddleston. It was definitely him for a bit. Harris Dickinson, Aaron Taylor Johnson, Henry Golding. Yeah. Yes. My goodness. Yeah. Rege Jean Page for a bit after Bridgerton for definite.

B (45:45)

He'd still be great, by the way.

A (45:47)

I personally think he has great sense of humour for it and would be whatever Callum Turner is. There's a lot of people who feel

B (45:54)

like Callum Turner's the bookies favorite.

A (45:56)

Right. Callum Turner is currently the bookies favorite. A lot of people feel like they're running sort of COVID campaigns. Like Taron Egerton, who very much like when you're running for Labour leader, you just say that. Literally the last thing I want to do is run for Labour leader. So he said many times, you know, he wouldn't want to.

B (46:11)

So Taron Egerton is like, we're streeting.

A (46:13)

Yeah, yeah.

B (46:13)

He could play West Streeting.

A (46:15)

Really, any of them. So if you look at things like, there's all different ways you can bet on this. No bond chosen is higher than it's ever been. It's on about. I mean, when I last spoke, like, no Bond ever. No, no, they haven't chosen it yet, which is true, by the way. I definitely don't think that they have made the final decision, but I'll come to who I think they're closing in is on 79%. This morning, when I was coming in on Polymarket.

B (46:36)

Sorry, how can you bet on 90% then?

A (46:40)

I think that the market just. They time the markets and then they say. And we just close it. If it hasn't come to a circle in the next four months, they have chosen a pump. So Callum Turner was on 10%, James Norton was on three, Jacob Elordi was on three, Aaron Taylor Johnson on two. And Kalshee's got it all differently. It's got Callum Turner on 60%, Jacob Elordi 18%, Josh O' Connor 8%. If you're betting on Josh O' Connor to be the next James Bond, have a world with yourself. I love him. I love him, but it's not gonna be. I absolutely love him, but it's not gonna be Josh o'. Connor. And people who names have come in. Henry Ashton, you know this guy, he's in my Lady Jane, Good Girl's Guide to Murder, things like that. He had sort of sudden rush of. And there is actual real money behind, if you look at how much has been placed on these markets. Because in the old days we used to think, oh, yeah, these are novelty bets. No one actually walks in or go on the next James Bond, I have to say. So, I mean, you can just. Just the mere fact of me saying this means it won't happen. But I have heard from a number of people now that they're sort of, you know, Jacob Elordi has kind of moved into pole position. I don't think no one's signed anything yet, which is interesting because Callum Turner is way out ahead. But I've heard this. But as I say, just the mere fact of me saying it was. But anyway, here we go. Let's at least treat it. Let's dignify it.

B (48:01)

Yeah. Too tall for bo.

A (48:03)

Well, that's interesting. Cause I remember you were approached at a certain point by security services. And I remember you thinking a six foot seven spy was maybe not the

B (48:11)

greatest disguise and postage.

A (48:12)

He's a 6 foot 5 spy. So what would that be? I mean, yeah, so and looks like Jacob Elordi.

B (48:17)

I mean, yes, again, I'm the only way I could be a spy. If they needed somebody to infiltrate the European Basketball association, we'll just get something

A (48:26)

off a really high shelf.

B (48:27)

I mean, listen, Steven Knight, you know, your move, just a movie about someone reaching something from a high shelf.

A (48:35)

So it's interesting. First of all, there's lots of things interesting about Jacob Elordi, why he's doing it. First of all, you know, it's important. Women already want to sleep with him. Now. Daniel Craig was some of the best casting of all time. That was a Barbara Buckley pick. And it was a real. That was a real move because a lot of people were like, sorry, who? And, yeah, No, I don't say the second they saw the film, like, no, yeah, you're right. I do want to see it with him. So that. Okay, people already want to sleep with Jacob. Lordy. He is Gen Z. A list. He's one of a few people you would say is definitely an A list. It's interesting that they will have. If they did do that, they've totally skipped Millennials. They'll never have been a Millennial Bond.

B (49:12)

Well, it's been a long. I mean, they've. Yeah, it's been a long time.

A (49:14)

It has. But it's interesting that, you know, when they dated.

B (49:17)

Where is our Millennial Bond?

A (49:17)

Yeah, there was never a Millennial Bond.

B (49:19)

But that, again, there's a franchise for you. If you're Amazon and you're trying to get as much, you know, out of Bond as you can, then let's do Millennial Bond in a few years.

A (49:27)

And they will, by the way, be doing all of this. As we all know, there's gonna be so many other things. I do think they have to have this decision in place before we start seeing the rollout. They don't have to wait for the film to come out to have other things necessarily.

B (49:37)

Cause he's 28, Jacob Elordi, so he could easily do a good 10 years, which is. That's what they really want.

A (49:43)

Right.

B (49:43)

They want somebody who's gonna own this for a generation.

A (49:46)

He is not British.

B (49:48)

No.

A (49:48)

But I think you can get away with it being Australia. I don't think you can have an American one. No matter how great the accent.

B (49:53)

No.

A (49:54)

Even when you get, like, someone like Gwyneth Paltrow, her English accent is completely flawless. You couldn't have. You can't have the male equivalent of that. We've seen him in Saltburn. His English accent is flawless. It's Fine. Yeah. There was a point where, you know, all sorts of mad names have been put out there at certain times. Chris Hemsworth has pushed again. Australian bonds.

B (50:13)

We've had an Australian bond before, though.

A (50:15)

Yes, we have.

B (50:15)

Lazenby and we've had two non British bonds, Lazenby and Brosnan. I think. Yeah, it's.

A (50:20)

No, I just don't think you can have an American.

B (50:22)

Oh, no. But Australians are essentially British, if you know what. They're not Australians. We know that, but you know what we mean by that. We have a commonality.

A (50:32)

But someone like Chris Hemsworth, who would have been totally wrong for it, but he's also so completely associated with another mega franchise, Jacob Lord. He's a bit of a clean skin. I mean, on all of that stuff. So huge with the younger audience. That is what I've heard. I'm sure it won't, you know, it definitely hasn't been a done deal yet, but I think that perhaps that would be their. That might be their number one choice. But again, this is merely the opinion of people. Not a million miles from.

B (51:02)

But please don't take gambling advice from this program.

A (51:05)

No, definitely don't. Because it could very well be Cam Turner. And I think he's fantastic. I love him.

B (51:10)

So, see, I think there's another name in the frame. And so I think they are gonna wait till November. I think they're gonna see how celeb traitors plays out. And then I think it's Ross Kemp.

A (51:24)

What can't he do as Bond? Well, it's one of the very few professions he hasn't effectively already nailed.

B (51:30)

I would watch Kemp as Bond.

A (51:31)

Yeah, well, maybe in one of the spin offs. He's not a millennial anyway, so we'll see where that goes. And it could very well be Callum Turner, which would also be brilliant. And then equally, it may be one of these other ones because at the last minute somebody comes through. But I do think that they're getting quite close to that decision now.

B (51:52)

Yeah, it's exciting.

A (51:52)

Yeah, it is. It's fun.

B (51:54)

Any recommendations this week?

A (51:56)

Yes, I do, actually. I really enjoyed Jack Loudon in a short film, which is about 15 minutes, called vote Gavin Lyle. And it's. You can see it on YouTube. It's directed by Anil Currier and he plays a politician. It's a satire. He plays a politician standing for effectively reform. And I just feel like he, Jack Loudon, really, having spent quite a lot of time around lots of those type of candidates, I think he just somehow captures the brittleness and the fake self deprecation and the sort of slightly disappointed venom of those particular characters. It's the most true to life that I've seen. And we're gonna see lots more people standing for parliament that are not necessarily in the traditional mold of the now. We live in a five party system. So anyway, it's the most successful distillation of that particular vibe I've seen so far. He's very, very good in it.

B (52:55)

Remind me of the name again.

A (52:56)

It's called Vote Gavin Lyle. You can watch it on YouTube. It's like 15 minutes.

B (52:59)

I would love Jack Loudon as Bond, by the way.

A (53:01)

I know.

B (53:01)

I think he's absolutely love him. Two recommendations really, that have a connection. And the other Bennett sister on BBC, which is fantastic.

A (53:13)

It's a half hour drama.

B (53:14)

Yeah, half hour drama. My mum's an enormous fan of all of that and she said, you know what? I loved it. So she thought, oh, great. It's written by Janice Hadlow, who weirdly used to be. Used to run BBC2. Never commissioned anything from me, but she's done a great job here, to be fair to us. So she came good in the end. It's really, really great, right?

A (53:29)

It's really good. Yeah. I remember talking. It's Bad Wolf, right. I remember talking to. Than when they were, you know, they were saying, oh, we're gonna do something a bit different. It's gonna be like a half hour drama. And I remember thinking, huh, I'd like to. I mean, it's funny as well, but it's really funny. It's incredibly affecting.

B (53:44)

It's got an amazing central performance from Ella, Brucha Leary from Call the Midwife. I mean, a really amazing performance.

A (53:50)

I'm absolutely loving it. I see myself in her.

B (53:53)

And you've got Richard Le Grant is in it, Ruth Jones is in it. You know, it's got the cast you would want as well, so really, really enjoying that. But I'm also watching from the start of the century, the Way We Live now, which is the adaptation of the Trollope novel, which I just finished reading and that's how I was saving it. And it's fantastic. David Suchet is in it, Matthew McFadyn is in it. But it also has the first ever television appearance of Cillian Murphy, who looks so young. He's doing an English accent brilliantly. And you take one look at the guy and think, every casting director in the world must have gone, okay.

A (54:29)

It was mesmerizing. The eyes. I remember it so well.

B (54:32)

Absolutely amazing written by Andrew Davis. Really, really good. And then I noticed that both of them are Produced by Jane Tranter, 25 years apart. So that's loved both of them. So the Other Bennett Sister and the Way We Live Now. Way We Live now is on Amazon. The other Bennett sister is on iplayer.

A (54:51)

Right. We will be back on Thursday with a Q and A. And for our members, for a bonus episode, we will be about the Michael Jackson Pepsi advert incident. This is when his hair caught fire and we'll be discussing it as a cultural moment. Anyway, if you want to join for ad free listening, it's theresticentertainment.com Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday.

B (55:15)

See you on Thursday. Why did we really go to war with Iraq? And did Saddam Hussein really have weapons of mass destruction? I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist. And I'm David McCloskey, author and former CIA analyst. We are the hosts of the Rest Is Classified. And in our latest series, we are telling the true story of one of history's biggest intelligence failures. Iraq WMD. In 2003, the US and UK told the world that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. But they were wrong. This wasn't a simple lie. It was something far more complicated, far more interesting and far more dangerous. Spies who believed their sources, politicians who wanted the public to believe in the threat, and a dictator who couldn't prove he'd already destroyed the weapons. In this series, we go deep inside the CIA and MI6, go into the rooms where decisions were made and look at the sources who fabricated the intelligence that took us to war. The Iraq war reshaped the Middle east and permanently weakened public trust in governments and intelligence agencies. And its consequences are still playing out today. Plus, in a Declassified Club exclusive, we are joined by three people who were at the heart of the decision to go to war. Former head of MI6, Richard Dearlove, Tony Blair's former communications director, Alistair Campbell, and former acting head of the CIA, Michael Morell. So get the full story by listening to the Rest Is Classified and subscribing to the Declassified Club. Wherever you get your podcasts,