Frank Lampard & Joe Cole join us as the World Cup kicks off

Summary

The Rest Is Football — Frank Lampard & Joe Cole Join Us as the World Cup Kicks Off

Date: June 12, 2026
Hosts: Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards
Guests: Frank Lampard, Joe Cole
Main Theme: World Cup kick-off, Lampard’s achievements at Coventry, Mourinho’s Real Madrid return, England squad debate, and World Cup predictions.

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Episode Overview

This episode launches as the 2026 World Cup begins, with the panel discussing football’s major storylines, including Frank Lampard’s managerial rise, England’s hopes and tactical dilemmas, and broader reflections on international football. Frank Lampard and Joe Cole join the regulars for insider perspectives, balancing footballing insight with trademark wit and camaraderie.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Frank Lampard’s Coventry Promotion

• Congratulatory Start: The hosts open by lauding Lampard’s achievement—transforming Coventry from relegation candidates to Championship winners.
  • Lampard on Playoff Heartbreak:
    “You softened the blow a little bit because you’re hurting after losing a playoff semi final … maybe we weren’t ready to do it.” (02:57)
• Management Philosophy:
  • Lessons Learned:
    “You probably live and learn in this game. If you don’t try and get better every day … you’ve got to just take [knocks] on the chin.” (04:18)
  • Simplicity and Clarity:
    “We probably simplified the message … got the best out of the players … managed to get the simple things right.” (04:18)
• Recruitment and Scouting:
  • On leveraging World Cup scouting: “The World Cup’s a great stage for us to look at players … a big spectrum.” (05:19)

World Cup Memories & Missed Goals

• England Scoring Memories:
  • Gary needles Frank for not having scored in a World Cup—“But that infamous goal, that was over. Clearly over the line.” (06:02)
  • Joe recalls his wonder goal against Sweden:
    “I probably scored the best goal of my career at a World Cup … I must have met everyone who’s been in the stadium that day!” (06:32)
• Personal World Cup Influence:
  “Italia 90 … Gazza … that just transfixed me with football. That was the reason I wanted to play football.” (06:32)

Mourinho Returns to Real Madrid

• Mourinho’s Impact and Style:
  • Joe Cole on Mourinho:
    “He was frightening … on me from day one … you just get, you know, you’re in the presence of someone who’s special.” (07:32)
  • Lampard adds:
    “…got this complete persona on the outside … but … you could feel a warmth from him, but also a bit of drive.” (08:12)
  • Adjustment for modern squads:
    “He’ll know that he can’t go in with Kylian Mbappe and go old Jose or strong Jose.” (09:11)
  • Emotional Intelligence:
    “It’s about personalities and emotional intelligence … that’s why he’s great. That’s the genius.” (09:33)

World Cup Tactical Analysis

• Mexico as Dark Horses:
  • Gary Neville:
    “I told you Mexico, dark horses … pressing, moving the ball in the final third … Raul Jimenez … really good.” (10:52)
• Altitude and Conditions in Mexico:
  • Lampard:
    “There’s considerations on the conditions … adaptation for teams that are used to that … going to change the face of the games.” (11:41)
  • Alan Shearer recalls scoring the first tournament goal at Euro 1996, notes the relief and pressure for England forwards. (12:22, 12:35)
• Media Pressure on England Strikers:
  “It’s the media pressure. When it’s England, it’s a different level … you feel that.” — Lampard (13:52)

South Africa’s Defensive Struggles vs Mexico

• Questionable Tactics:
  • Joe:
    “When you’re the underdogs … the message … is no mistakes … South Africa just self-destruct.” (15:18)
  • Lampard on risky playing out:
    “If you want to play down near your own goal and you want to make passes you’re not comfortable … you’re waiting for trouble.” (16:04)
  • Balance between playing style and pragmatism:
    “Watching PSG … they’re hitting goal kicks, 90% of them long. You don’t have to overcoach…” (16:36)

VAR and Refereeing Decisions

• Consensus: Over-involvement Early in Tournament
  • Joe:
    “It’s like a kid with a new toy … can’t wait to use it … no need to go to VAR.” (17:18)
  • Micah:
    “…for the first 10 days or so you might see decisions we’ll be talking about … first one was definitely a red, the other two on the edge…” (17:26)
  • Gary:
    “I don’t think it was a red card, I think it was soft … all he did was try to use his body.” (18:12)

England Squad Selection & Balance

• Best XI Debate:
  • Gordon vs Rashford, fitness of Saka:
    “I’d start with Gordon. … Gordon is a brilliant presser, so I’d probably start with him.” — Joe (21:40)
  • Cole Palmer’s case:
    “He’s just, he’s got that composure and calmness … you need players who’ve got that swagger.” — Joe (22:27)
  • Lampard:
    “Cole Palmer can go by players … but it’s a different style. I’m a big fan … he’s a moments player.” (22:43)
• Tuchel’s Approach:
  • “…He’s got the idea of, ‘this is the team, this is my starting team … environment’s important’ … there’s always casualties through that.” — Lampard (23:21)
• Managerial Dilemma:
  “How much is it about the quality of the player and then the balance of the team?” — Gary (24:26)
  • Lampard:
    “That’s the hard part … you have to prioritise balance … you live or die by the results.” (24:26)

Squad Harmony & Mentality

• Mentality of Squad Players:
  • Joe:
    “I’ve had it both ways … when you train afterwards, if there’s a couple of lads not on it, that’s when they start moaning. You need good lads who keep the harmony.” (25:46)
  • “You’ve got to put your professional head on … and be ready.” — Joe (27:27)
  • Micah:
    “…First week acceptable…but the longer it goes on … it becomes a bit of a chore … characters he’s left at home are the risky ones for the environment.” (27:35)
• Versatility in Replacing Saka:
  • Micah:
    “Rashford and Gordon either side of Kane … pace, the press, ability to sit back and hit on the counter-attack.” (28:22)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lampard’s playoff heartbreak and growth:
  “Football’s like that, right? Maybe we weren’t ready to do it … with a bit of experience and time, you get a bit of reason.” — Frank Lampard (03:48)

• Joe Cole’s World Cup dream:
  “Italia 90 … was the reason I wanted to play football … Going to the World Cup for England was like the biggest thing.” (06:32)

• On managing egos:
  “Big egos. Deal with them, you know, go back to them.” — Frank Lampard (08:50)

• On Mourinho’s influence:
  “You could just feel a warmth from him, but also a bit of drive. I think he’s perfect for Real Madrid.” — Lampard (08:12)

• Lampard on modern management:
  “You can’t go in with Kylian Mbappé and go Old Jose … he’ll know that.” (09:11)

• Team selection headaches:
  “You live or die by the results at the end of it. … There’s always gonna be some casualties.” — Lampard (24:26)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 02:57 – Lampard on Coventry’s transformation and play-off heartbreak
• 04:18 – Lampard discusses his managerial evolution and philosophy
• 06:32 – Joe Cole’s World Cup goal and the impact of Italia 90
• 07:32 – Joe and Frank’s first impressions of Jose Mourinho
• 08:48 – Mourinho’s suitability for Real Madrid and player management
• 09:11 – Management styles then vs now
• 10:52 – Gary Neville discusses Mexico’s World Cup prospects
• 11:41 – Lampard on playing in tough conditions and altitude
• 13:52 – Lampard on media and striker pressure during England tournaments
• 15:18 – Joe reviews South Africa’s tactical errors vs Mexico
• 16:04 – Lampard’s view on when to avoid playing out from the back
• 17:18 – Discussion on VAR and early tournament refereeing
• 21:40 – Joe suggests Gordon for England’s starting XI
• 22:27 – Cole Palmer’s England credentials debated
• 24:26 – Lampard on the manager’s dilemma: player quality vs team balance
• 25:46 – Joe on squad mentality and harmony

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Tone & Language

The episode blends footballing expertise with light-hearted banter. The interplay between Lampard and Cole, especially recalling shared Mourinho days and World Cup stories, brings warmth and authenticity. The hosts maintain a balanced mix of technical insight and fan-minded debate, never shying from playful digs.

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Conclusion

This episode captures the anticipation around the World Cup’s kick-off, with astute takes on management, England’s tactical options, and international football’s unique pressures. Lampard and Cole provide rare dressing-room perspectives, while the panel’s chemistry ensures it’s as entertaining as it is insightful.

Next up: Scotland vs Haiti and Brazil vs Morocco reactions — tune in Sunday!

Transcript

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[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Hello and welcome to the Rest Is Football. The World cup has finally started and we're on Netflix every single day for the whole tournament. But we'll still bring you three audio episodes a week too. So if you want to watch me, Alan, Micah and a host of special guests, then get us on Netflix every day. But if you want to listen, you can get us wherever you get your podcasts. On today's episode we were joined by Frank Lampard and Joe Cole. Let's get into it. Frank, while you're here, we've got to say many congratulations. I mean what a fabulous job you've done at Coventry. First season you went there and they were just near the relegation zone. You got them to the playoffs, just missed out. And then this season, you've absolutely blitzed it. You've won the league, you're back in the Premier League. Fantastic. Well done.

[Frank Lampard]

Nah, thanks very much. It's been an amazing season. I actually remember we had a message between myself and you, didn't we, after we lost the playoff semi final. And I think you actually, you softened the blow a little bit because you're hurting after losing a playoff semi final. And you said, like, maybe it's not meant to be, but football's like that, right? Maybe we weren't ready to do it. So obviously we went away in the summer, didn't change too much, brought a couple of players in that were really important for us and I've just loved it. I've got an amazing group of players, brilliant fan base. That connection, you can't talk down how much that means when you've got a good group and the connection. The football club works and been brilliant. Really enjoyed the year.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I own dinardo, where they send that message, because I knew at the time and I just thought to myself, I don't think Coventry were then ready so to go up and I think it would have been really difficult. You just said it's probably for the best.

[Frank Lampard]

You were not the only one either, though. Some people really close to them, we won't name them, but they actually. People who know what this job is and if you do go there too soon, you're not ready for it. And I kind of knew that looking back as well, Gary, to be fair, obviously you want to get there at the time and it was heartbreaking, but with a bit of experience and time, you get a bit of reason to it and sometimes voices of reason help you on that little journey as well.

[Joe Cole]

Frank, can I ask, what have you done differently at this job that you've done at different jobs, obviously, different budget, different players, but have you done anything differently?

[Frank Lampard]

I think you probably live and learn in this game if you don't try and get better every day, every season through. So a few little knocks along the way, you got to try and just take them on the chin and try and be better. As I say, I walked into a good group of lads. I think between myself and my staff, I have to mention them always, because I came in with Chris and Joe, who really well, and they can do things that I can't do. We just work so well together. We probably simplified the message, understand what we want, and in simple terms, we've got the best out of the players within the system, the way we played, it was almost like, we know we can do that, we can build this, we can press there. We've actually managed to get the simple things right. And then when you can get momentum with that. So just being kind of really clear with the players, I think, and as I say, when you enjoy going to work every day with a group, then, yeah, it's been a good year.

[Micah Richards]

Well, you're able to have a break, though, because you're always, you're working, you're still grafting and looking for players and all those things.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Probably looking for the here at the World cup as well, aren't you? I mean, I'm sure you have an eye. You've got two players here, haven't you, as well?

[Frank Lampard]

Yeah, we've got Brandon Thomas, Asante, we're Ghana. We've got Hedge of Wright with America. A few of our boys just missed out, the Wales boys, and they just missed out, unfortunately. But we will be looking, though. We all know, don't we? You move the gap from the championship to Premier League to try and bring in players of that level. The World Cup's a great stage for us to look at players, looking across a big spectrum of players. But yeah, yeah, definitely looking at that.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Yeah. Well, all of us have played in World Cups. Great memories. I didn't realize that.

[Micah Richards]

Hang on, Sorry.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

M sorry, I didn't mean that. I wasn't deliberate.

[Frank Lampard]

That was a bit like my.

[Micah Richards]

You've been gone 24 hours and he's digging you out already.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Not at all, not at all. You know, you have World cup experience. The mad thing I didn't realise because your England career was great, you had loads of goals, but you didn't score actually in a World cup, although you did, you did against Germany. But that infamous goal, that was over. Clearly over the line.

[Gary Neville]

Wasn't given.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Yeah, Joe, you scored. I saw it this morning on social media. Yeah, incredible goal against Sweden in 2002.

[Joe Cole]

2006.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

2006 in Germany. Because it was.

[Frank Lampard]

You had a great world. You had a good World Cup.

[Joe Cole]

Listen, I love the World Cup. Like, I, I, I remember watching Italia 90 and I remember the moment when you watched Gazza and remember when he. Well, obviously you do when you're telling these heads are gone. And that just, that just transfixed me with football. That was the reason I wanted to play football. So going to the World cup of England was like the biggest thing for me. I probably scored the best goal of my career at a World cup. So people remember it. I Must have met everyone who's been in the stadium that day, you know what I mean? Everyone's got.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Whatever you've written to them all.

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, yeah. So amazing.

[Gary Neville]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Certainly was. Bit of news broken today that. I mean, I think we've known it was going to happen, but Jose Mourinho is now officially the new coach of Real Madrid. Again, you two have both played for him, so I needed to ask you something about Jose. We all know how amazing his career and how successful he is, particularly with you guys at Chelsea, probably more than anything else. But what's he like? What's he like to actually play for? Cause he always seems a little bit, like, kind of frightening.

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, he was. He was frightening. Especially for me. Like, he was like. He was on me from day one, like, for some reason. Listen, I've spoke to him about it before and. And he. He. I think he always. He knew I needed to have someone on top of me all the time because I could easily lose concentration. But you remember the first meeting we had with him when he come to the Lowry, and I remember thinking, the confidence. I never seen a man walk into a room so confident, like, you know, and he had, like, obviously yourself, jt, like, about six of us England players. And he just basically said, I'm gonna make you champions, if you follow me. And I was just like, you know, you just get, you know, you're in the presence of someone who's special. I couldn't believe it.

[Frank Lampard]

I was the same@giro2004 when it came and we were prepping. Joziah just won the Champions League with Porto, run down the touchline at Man United. And then obviously we'd had Chelsea was this new animal that was gonna just go places. Cause of Roman. And then the minute we got him, I remember kind of going, oh, same as you. I was a bit, like, excited, but, like, ugh, nervous. But I think that's what great managers do. They've got this complete Persona on the outside which, you know, do the press and all that stuff. And then when he came to meet us in the Lowry Hotel, straight away, you could just feel a warmth from him, but also a bit of drive. So I think he's perfect for Real Madrid because of what they got there, the talent.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Paul, someone's handled big egos.

[Frank Lampard]

Big egos. Deal with them, you know, go back to them.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Like Frank Lampard and Joe Cole.

[Frank Lampard]

Yeah, Deal with us.

[Micah Richards]

Do you not think? I mean, you're better than anyone to tell us now, though, that style of management from years ago. 20 years ago. It's very different now with personalities and players coming up now in terms of how you can treat them and look after them and their respect and everything. Different, isn't it?

[Frank Lampard]

Very, very different I would say. I think he's smart enough and well traveled enough to know that. And I think that we were probably quite a good group, weren't we? We were actually, we joke about Mbappes, we were quite not humble but we were like we needed to be led and pushed on and he gave us the self confidence. He's going into a different group now but he'll know that he can't go in with Kylian Mbappe and go Old Jose or strong Jose too.

[Joe Cole]

Do you know like he's smart management Frank, obviously, you know, but I think it's about personalities and emotional intelligence and I think with you Frank, he was obviously going towards being a top, top player but remember he sort of singled you out and said you're going to be our man. And I don't know, I felt like you went on another level that way, Frank.

[Frank Lampard]

No, no, no, no, we've got a different story. Yeah, no, but like I remember you

[Joe Cole]

worked it out obviously you was at Chelsea playing for Ranieri and doing everything but he was like, you're going to be my man. And I think with me he knew that he could. I wanted to be there desperately and I would do anything and he could just poke me and poke me. I remember scored the winner against Liverpool and I was forced to be his knees like one nil and spoke wouldn't it? And he just, he just battered me in the press like and back and you're just like, oh do I just scored the winner in like a tight, tight. But it was his way of. He knew I was capable of just, just losing concentration. So he had, he knew what to do with me, he knew what to do with Frank. Different characters and that's why he's great. That's why I think that's the genius.

[Micah Richards]

But he always felt he had your back.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Yeah.

[Joe Cole]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Micah Richards]

If you work, if you worked for him then he had your back. He was doing it for the right reasons.

[Joe Cole]

And a few, yeah, a few times when, few times when I got into trouble or something like that. He was always when you needed him. He was always there when you're one of his players.

[Gary Neville]

I told you Mexico, Dark horses, they played some good stuff today. A little bit vulnerable I would say defensively but in terms of the way they was pressing, the way they moved the ball in the Final third. I actually thought there was really good. And Raul Jimenez, who we mentioned, and Gilberto Mora got his game as well. So I was happy with the way Mexico played today.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I thought they played really well as two. And it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because if Mexico do win their group and England win their group and both teams win the round of 32, England play in Mexico City and then you've got the problem of altitude and how do you adjust? I think you can fly in very late and then straight out. But I mean, that's something that you've got to think about as a manager. Any fears in that, Frank? Does that make it difficult?

[Frank Lampard]

I definitely think there's considerations on the conditions we're going to get. Because speaking just personally from the World Cups, I went to Brazil, specifically the Germany World cup we played in was really hot as well. Some games we didn't really adapt great for it. I think it's coming a lot. I think there'll be no stone unturned from Thomas Tuchel and the team around it. But just naturally, adaptation for teams that are used to that, it's going to change the face of the games and you're going to have to deal with that. First and foremost.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Sports science has come a long way, certainly since my day. Yeah, even your day as well. Quinone scored the first goal of the tournament. You scored the first goal in a tournament, Alan. 1996.

[Micah Richards]

Right, okay. Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Against Switzerland. That was so. I mean, that must be an amazing thing to do.

[Micah Richards]

Well, it was.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

And likewise, it's in front of you.

[Micah Richards]

Well, it was for me because I hadn't scored for England for two years, so the relief was.

[Joe Cole]

Relief.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

How on earth were you in the fucking team?

[Micah Richards]

That's a good point. Probably because I'd got through 37 in the season before that. Yeah. Yeah. You know what it's like as a forward goal scorer. Frank's. You're just desperate to get off to a good. Yeah. You want to win, but you want to do your job and score the goal. So to score the first one is a huge relief.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I was at the game.

[Gary Neville]

What's it like when you're not scoring, though?

[Micah Richards]

You're there.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I was there.

[Micah Richards]

Oh, you're there.

[Joe Cole]

I was there.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Yeah. Sorry. Don't ignore Big Meek. Sorry.

[Micah Richards]

Sorry, Micah.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Say, Micah.

[Gary Neville]

Sorry.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

No.

[Gary Neville]

What's it like when you're not scoring because, you know, your high standards,

[Micah Richards]

You're horrific. You can't sleep.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

You know, it's.

[Micah Richards]

It's. I mean, whatever I did because if you remember, though, because England were the host country. We. We had all. They're all friendlies leading up to the. Leading up to the tournament.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

No qualifiers.

[Micah Richards]

There was no qualifiers. So it's. I don't know.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

It was.

[Micah Richards]

You know. Yes, you're playing for England, but there's. There's. When there's not that. I don't know, there's not that edge at it. It's. It's. It is slightly different, but.

[Frank Lampard]

Yeah, it's like two. Sorry, it's like two things. It's your own thing. Because when you're a goal scorer, that's what you live and breathe for. You wake up, you can't sleep because of it. But it's the. It's the media pressure. When it's England, it's a different level of. Of pressure that can build very quickly and you can. We're not stupid. You feel that?

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I mean, I had a sim. I mentioned this because it was Mexico City.

[Micah Richards]

Oh, really? Did you play in Mexico City?

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I played in Mexico City.

[Micah Richards]

I didn't realize that.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Yeah. Did you know what happened 40 years on this day, June 11, 19.

[Micah Richards]

Remind me. I probably. You scored the hat trick, was it?

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I wasn't going to mention that, but yes, yes, it was 40 years today, June 11th.

[Duluth Trading Company Advertiser]

Oh, wow.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Yeah. Transformed my life. And I'd gone five, six games with that goal, which is obviously nowhere near as long as you did

[Micah Richards]

40 years,

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

but there we go. I mean, there were some decisions in this game. He's gone, he's had enough.

[Micah Richards]

He's had all this shit before. 40 years, that must. I mean, that must make you feel old, man. I am 40 years.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I am old. I was only 12 at the time. It's a long time. All right, Micah, we're changing the subject. We're going back to the. The game today. I was kind of baffled. I thought Mexico were really good. But I thought South Africa, when you're a team that's not got many quality players, with all due respect, to start trying to play out from the back with your goalkeeper.

[Joe Cole]

And Joe, I mean, really, you're the underdogs. You're going to play Mexico in Mexico City. The message, I'm assuming for them is no mistakes and no one's expecting to see. Let's see if South Africa play for the lions. And he plays the interaction, the midfield. Just before he got caught. Yeah, nearly got caught. And you just think to yourself, you just. Brain dead, wouldn't it? It was brain dead. And they did it again. And Mexico, they was good. I Didn't think they was great. I thought they were good. I'm looking at them now thinking I'll be more worried if England do play them. I think England can take care of them, but South Africa just self destruct. Self destruct?

[Frank Lampard]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I mean, you're a coach, obviously, you like to play football and stuff. Pros and cons of playing that way.

[Frank Lampard]

Yeah. I think when you're sitting there as a coach talking like, I find it hard to critique too much because everyone's got their own issues and have their own approach. But my feeling is if you've got the players that are not comfortable doing it and if you understand the opposition, then I think if you want to play down there near your own goal and you want to make passes, you're not comfortable, then I think you're waiting for trouble. Now, you know, you might be analyzing my team next year. Why are they trying to play out from the back?

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

I've got to be careful what I say, not might.

[Frank Lampard]

We will be, will be 100% because

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

you're in the Premier League. Yeah.

[Frank Lampard]

But to even go slightly, we're going to have variations. And if you look at some of the top teams now, watching Paris Saint Germain, best team in Europe, they're hitting goal kicks, 90% of them long you go. There is another way we don't have to overcoach to show how great a coach we can go from back to front because everyone is waiting for you to do that. So I think in simple terms seem

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

like, what did we think to the refereeing decisions and the intervention of various. I think most of them were probably right, but the slap from Zvane and I mean, slowed down it looks like, but turnover, that sort of thing, it's like they want to get involved.

[Joe Cole]

It's like a kid with a new toy that he can't wait to use. And you're thinking there was no need to go to Var. You had to see it seven or eight times, didn't he?

[Micah Richards]

Yeah, I'm the same. I'm the same as you. I didn't. My slight concern would be, is like, it's like the start of the season, you know, when you expect to be really tight on everything. And I think that could be the case here is that for the first 10 days or so you might see decisions that we're going to be talking about. But I'm like you. There was a couple of them on the edge, I thought. I think the first one was definitely a red card and then the other two I think were on the edge, particularly the one for the slap on the face. I'm not sure where else he could have put his arm.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

He's just trying to fend him off a little bit and I thought it was really Micah you were watching back home.

[Gary Neville]

Yeah, I don't think it was a red card. I think it was soft. He started giving red cards for that. All he did is tried to use his body. Unfortunately he used his arm and it did touch him in his face and it was one angled where it did look really bad. So maybe you don't want to go too hard on the referees, but I don't think it's a red card.

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[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

We picked a team, Joe Frank the other day between us and obviously you can differ, but it was pretty close to what Thomas Tuchel started with. We had Gay in at the back rather than Consa, but aside from that and I think we had Rashford in instead of Gordon and Sacco who was. Obviously there's slight concerns about his fitness. What are your views on England? I thought Jude Bellingham was excellent in the game. I know you can't read too much into these friendlies because you actually don't really want to play in them, do you, before tournaments. But it's just for fitness, isn't it, Joe?

[Joe Cole]

The only thing I would do differently, I'd start with Gordon. I know you work with. I love Gordon and I think the way that he wants to play Thomas Tuchel, a lot of it's going to be sort of dropping into that low mid block and then winning the ball. And Gordon is a brilliant presser, so I'll probably start with him and then obviously Madawa key off the right if Saka's not feeling great

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

as former Chelsea players. Looking at, we've talked about the fact that we don't like to talk too much about players that are not here, but when you see that, you know, Bukayo Saka might be injured, I mean, Cole Palmer was. I know he's had a difficult season with injuries and stuff, but he was starting to look fit and fresh at the end of it. And I just wonder because, you know, he'd go back 12 months and he was player of the tournament in the

[Joe Cole]

club World cup and also lamps his personality. Cole Palmer, you see him score a hat trick in the Premier League coming off the pitch and he's just, he's got that composure and calmness. I think you need that to be for an England player. The pressure's so big to play for England. You need players who've got that swagger.

[Frank Lampard]

Yeah.

[Joe Cole]

And Cole Palmer would just. This is where he is, you know what I mean?

[Frank Lampard]

I don't know whether he sees him because he's played more as a number 10 for Chelsea, whether he thinks on the right, he wants like that dynamic thing which to go by. And Cole Palmer can go by players, obviously, because he's got that. But it's different style, isn't it? I'm a big fan of Cole Palmer and I think where this game, I think where the conditions here are, the game's going to slow down a bit and it could be a bit turgid at times, and teams with the heat and he's a player that can open things up.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Moments player as well, isn't he?

[Frank Lampard]

Absolutely no doubt. Nothing phases him. He's got no fear.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

And he played in the final on the right, didn't he, in the club World cup final? He was brilliant, Brilliant against psg.

[Frank Lampard]

I think, to be fair to Thomas, right, I think we've talked a lot about squads over the years. He stuck to his guns. He's got the idea of, I'm going to say, this is the team, this is my starting team. I want. The environment's important to me. These are the ones that are playing well at the minute and I think there's something to be said for that. And there's always going to be some casualties through that, which is Cole Palmer. But it's definitely, you know, that's the hard bit about being England manager. We've all got opinions, of course, but I see your point with Kara Madweke.

[Gary Neville]

Frank, can I ask you a question?

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

Go on, Micah, go on.

[Frank Lampard]

Yes, mate, it's gone.

[Gary Neville]

Sorry, Frank, just quick, you know, in terms of you're a manager now, being a great player, obviously you take that, you've worked with Mourinho, you take a little bit of what he's given you as well. But when we're talking about England, how much is it about the quality of the player and then the balance of the team? Because we're always saying, oh, Cole Powell must be going there, Foden must be going there, or Maguire should be there, Trent Alexander, Arnold should be there. But ultimately the manager has to get the right balance for the team. How hard is that to do? To get the player, the right players and the right balance?

[Frank Lampard]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's the hard part of the job, especially when you've got that level of talent in specific areas and you've got to make decisions on it. I mean, there's. There's a human side to it as well, where you've got to ring up Morgan, Gibbs, White. You've got to bring up Cole Palmer, these players that are playing really, really well. But I think you obviously have to prioritise the balance to get the best out of players that you've got at your disposal. Whatever way he decides you're going to play wherever it's going to be a bit more. Am I looking at transition? You spoke a lot about the finishers. Any players coming on like Ivan Toney and Mado Ake's usually coming on. I don't mind hearing that stuff because I think it's interesting. It's maybe in a way we haven't thought before. We just pick the players that are playing for the biggest or the best teams. We obviously lived in this golden generation. Brian talked about midfielders where you could fit. The game's moved on now, I think, so finding the balance is right and as a manager you're just going to get. You're going to get judged by it. You live or die by the results at the end of it. But I quite like the way he's gone. This is the way I want to approach it because I think there's no. You can't sit on the fence. We're all going to disagree with one or two players there. But there's a feeling with this group that there's the environment because six weeks together away, we did it, Joe, didn't we? And we had some. A couple of World Cups we've had. We obviously never won anything mix. You would have been around the squad as well. Sometimes a funny feeling around it. Maybe it's like the manager or the player sort of the environment's fault. So getting that right is the first thing. If you don't get that right, I think we're just going to struggle.

[Joe Cole]

Listen, none of you three would have been not playing it well because I've had it both where I've played every game and I've had it both when I've been coming off the bench and that. And that day when you train afterwards, if there's a couple of lads who are not on it, that's when they start moaning. So I think Thomas Tuchel, you need to have good lads who are ready to sort of be ready to come on or just keep the harmony in the group. I'm not saying that any of the players he's picked weren't good lads, but if you're expecting to start and Thomas Tuchel's not going to start you and he doesn't think you're going to be, you know, three, four, it's a Long time not playing and I've been on both camps and so I think that has to be.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

What's it like? What's it like Joe being. I mean, obviously we all know what it's like when you're starting. You've done that, you said. But what's it like when you're in the squad? Yeah, but you can't get in the team.

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, it's like when you're young. I did it 2002, I was young. I come on and I was happy to beat as a kid. I was 19 and I was like. And then. But in 2010, I'd played all the games in 2006, 2010, had come back from injury and played and I thought I was going to start the first game because I played well in the friendly before and then I didn't start and then I didn't come on and then I didn't come on and then you get frustrated and then they ended up coming on for a couple of games. But you do have to get your mentality right and there's certain players who can do that. And like, people talk about Jordan Henderson being in there because he can drive that training session and keep. He's a wise head, isn't he? I think that's something that maybe weren't considered a lot during our time. I wouldn't name names, but there were some players who would have been sort of throwing the toys out of pram or making themselves known that they, you

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

know, Joe name names.

[Joe Cole]

But yeah, there'd be players that, you know, they let the coaches know they think they should be starting and ultimately you just got to put your professional head on play and be ready.

[Micah Richards]

I think for the first week that might be acceptable for some, for some players. But the longer it goes on, when you say after a game you're then in the guys who haven't played and then train, it then becomes a bit of a chore, I think. And that's. I think one of the reasons why he said no, I'm more than happy with the characters that I've got in this squad and I'm happy with who I've left at home. As he said also, they might have more ability, but he feels the better way to go is in terms of keeping everyone as best they can in terms of being tight and having no real rouse.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

But Alan, you've got an interesting take on the fact that Saka might not be 100% if he can't start because everyone's assuming Madwecke you.

[Micah Richards]

Well, you've got options to play Gordon or Rashford on the right hand side or the other one on the left hand side. Rashford and Gordon either side of Kane, which would give you the pace and the press and the ability to sit back and hit. Also counter attack as well rather than the Madweke. That's perhaps an option I would look at if Saka's not going to be fit to start the game.

[Podcast Host (Alan Smith)]

That's it for today's episode. We'll be back on your POD feed on Sunday with reaction to Scotland versus Haiti and Brazil versus Morocco, but in the meantime, join us on Netflix. Goodbye from me.

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