Terry Butcher: Invisible Wounds

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Football

Episode: "Terry Butcher: Invisible Wounds"

Date: June 5, 2026

Hosts: Gary Lineker (GL) with Guest Terry Butcher (TB)

---

Overview

This special episode of "The Rest Is Football" features former England captain and legendary defender Terry Butcher. The conversation centers around the new documentary "Butcher: Invisible Wounds," which explores Terry's football career, his family life, the tragic loss of his son and the journey through grief and healing that followed. The discussion widens to reminiscences of England’s World Cup campaigns, nostalgic team memories, football culture then and now, and playful banter typical of the show.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Inspiration & Making of "Butcher: Invisible Wounds"

Timestamps: 03:09–11:10

• Terry introduces his new documentary, “Butcher: Invisible Wounds,” which broadcasts on ITV4 (June 7) and iTVX.
• The focus is on both Butcher’s football legacy and the story of his son, Chris, a soldier who tragically took his own life following struggles with PTSD.
• Quote:
  • TB [05:02]: “I didn’t want to do it because I don’t like seeing myself on TV…I just get embarrassed, I think...But there is a big story to tell here, not just on me, but for my son and for veterans.”
• The documentary, directed by Stuart Burley (a family friend), is described as cathartic, blending career highlights, family tragedy, and finally, hope and purpose.
• Terry discusses his patronage with “Combat to Coffee,” a charity supporting veterans’ mental health.

2. Living with Grief & the Importance of Talking

Timestamps: 07:13–10:06

• Honest conversation about the difficulty of discussing grief, especially as a man and former footballer.
• Quote:
  • TB [08:15]: “Not as much footballers, but as men, we bottle up … But there are times when you can’t, and there’s been quite a few times … it helps my grief, that helps me … to be at ease with it a lot more as well.”
• Both Terry and his wife Rita struggled without therapy but found talking about Chris helped over time.
• The documentary includes emotional but hopeful family moments, such as news of a new grandchild.

3. Career Beginnings, Ipswich Town, and Bobby Robson

Timestamps: 11:19–19:32

• Butcher’s early days: doubting his football career, nearly switching to become a quantity surveyor, then transformed under tough coaching.
• Memorable anecdote: After being too “nice” on the field, was told to play with aggression, leading to a pivotal moment of change.
• Touching story of Bobby Robson’s faith in him—Butcher’s dad only told him years later that Robson believed Terry would go to the top.
• Quote:
  • TB [13:13]: “He’s going to go all the way to the top.”
• Lineker and Butcher reminisce about Ipswich’s European glory, great teammates, and Robson’s eccentricity (mixing up names, walking his dog into Butcher’s house by mistake).

4. Football Then vs. Now and Club Loyalty

Timestamps: 21:15–22:51

• Explains leaving Ipswich wasn’t by choice but a financial necessity for the club.
• Quote:
  • TB [22:00]: “In those days, if the club wanted to sell you, they could make it very difficult for you if you didn’t go … you’re almost like pieces of meat.”
• Contrasts with the modern player power dynamic.

5. Rangers Years & The Scottish Game

Timestamps: 22:51–29:05

• Move to Rangers initiated by Graeme Souness—part of the “English revolution” in Scottish football.
• Describes the intensity, expectation, and cultural uniqueness of playing in Scotland.
• On being English in Scotland: Rangers fans embraced him, whereas rivalry with Celtic and Scotland fans could get rowdy.
• Classic story about Rangers fans’ odd allegiance during an England–Scotland match involving Paul Gascoigne (Gazza).
• Quote:
  • TB [25:30]: “When you play for Rangers or Celtic, you’ve got to be at your best every game…”

6. Best Teammates and Nostalgic Laughter

Timestamps: 23:27–24:27

• Best player at Ipswich: Kevin Beattie—praised athleticism and on/off-pitch exploits (“beat Rocky [Stallone] at arm wrestling!”).
• Warm humor throughout—Lineker and Butcher teasing each other about their playing days and off-field memories.

7. Legendary Figures and the Gaza Years

Timestamps: 27:26–29:05

• Though Butcher didn’t play alongside Gascoigne at Rangers, he shares favorite Gazza stories—like the prank on Brian Laudrup.
• Quote:
  • TB [28:12]: “Gazza comes out, he gets dried, puts clothes on and goes home. ‘They’re my clothes.’ He used to cut ties up and all that sort of thing…”

8. Football’s Odyssean Journeys

Timestamps: 30:54–32:23

• Discussion shifts to footballers’ unique journeys.
• Picks for “Odyssean” players (those who overcame major setbacks): Peter Beardsley, Stuart Pearce, and Mo Salah.
• Light-hearted debate about those who shone early or late in their careers.

9. Rangers Successes & Scottish League Drama

Timestamps: 34:22–37:10

• Highlights of Butcher’s Rangers career: three league titles in four years.
• Shares stories of scoring own goals, breaking down doors, and even being (temporarily) on the wrong side of the law.
• On recent Scottish football—lamenting VAR controversies and the heartache of title races.

10. England: World Cups ’86 & ’90, Maradona & Infamous Moments

Timestamps: 37:10–46:33

• Vivid memories of Mexico ’86: the heat, the camaraderie, and the heartbreak.
• The infamous Argentina quarterfinal and Maradona’s “Hand of God” and wonder goal:
  • TB [39:15]: “I didn’t see it [the handball]…I just followed suit… The linesman was away, running away, and it was a goal. It was a shot, wasn’t it?”
  • TB [41:24]: “[Maradona] said it was his head. He’s a clever guy, because at the end of the day, if he’d said hand, I think I would have introduced him to my hand around his throat.”
• Discusses the pain and pride of Italia ’90: agonizing semi-final defeat to West Germany, penalty shootout, and captaining England.
  • TB [44:32]: “If I would change one thing in football, what would you do? And I’d say: win that semi-final and win the penalty shootout.”

11. Iconic Images & Playing Through Injury

Timestamps: 48:20–51:02

• Butcher’s bloodied, bandaged head in Stockholm—a football icon.
• Detailed (and humorous) breakdown of how he played and led the team despite a split head, seven stitches, and saturated shirts.
• Quote:
  • TB [50:01]: “People either put that picture on the dartboard or in front of the fire to stop the kids going on…”

12. England’s Modern Prospects

Timestamps: 51:14–52:22

• How does Butcher rate England’s World Cup chances?
• He’s optimistic due to squad depth, less pressure, and blend of youth and experience—also, a bittersweet nod to England’s first-ever non-English manager.
• Quote:
  • TB [51:14]: “Yeah, yeah, we can do it. I think there’s no real out and out favorites … We’ve got a good chance.”

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On grief and talking:
  • TB [07:13]: “I still find it difficult to talk about him. But this has been easier, a lot easier … doing this documentary, I can talk about him for much longer.”
• Bobby Robson confusion:
  • TB [16:16]: “He walked his dog into my house … I had to say, Bobby, you don’t live here.”
• Gazza’s classic prank:
  • TB [28:12]: “They’re my clothes!” (after Gazza wears Brian Laudrup’s clothes)
• On Maradona’s humility (or lack of):
  • TB [41:24]: “If he’d have said hand, I think I would have introduced him to my hand around his throat.”

---

Section Timestamps

• [03:09] – Introduction of Terry Butcher and documentary
• [05:02] – Why Terry made the documentary & message for veterans
• [07:13] – Living and talking through grief
• [11:19] – Early career at Ipswich & influence of Bobby Robson
• [21:15] – Leaving Ipswich, football transfer culture then vs now
• [22:51] – Rangers years, the Scottish football world
• [23:27] – Best teammates and classic football stories
• [27:26] – Stories about Paul Gascoigne
• [30:54] – "Odyssean" journeys in football
• [34:22] – Winning with Rangers & Scottish league controversies
• [37:10] – England World Cup memories: ’86 and ’90
• [48:20] – “Bloodied Butcher” in Stockholm and iconic images
• [51:14] – England’s World Cup chances

---

Final Recommendations & Closing Thoughts

• Gary Lineker strongly recommends the documentary, praising its honesty and emotional depth, and highlighting the message of hope.
• The episode blends moving personal discussions with football humor and nostalgia, serving both as a tribute to Butcher’s character and as a window into football’s evolving culture.

---

For listeners who missed the episode, this summary provides both the emotional core and the football banter that make "The Rest Is Football" essential listening—especially this moving and memorable chat with Terry Butcher.

Transcript

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphya offers self injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self inject Tremphya, proper training is required. Tremphya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with mild, moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur before treatment. Get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about tremphya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit

[Peyronie's Disease Informant]

tremphyaradio.com let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of and it turns out it's more common than you'd think. Peyronie's disease, or PD for short. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis. This can cause a curve or bump during an erection and for some men lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health. It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lower self esteem and even withdrawal from sexual activity and physical intimacy. Because of this, some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about pd. The actual cause of PD isn't always known. In some cases it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or other physical activity. The good news is PD is treatable. If you notice a curve with a bump, a trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. To learn more about Peyronie's disease, visit talkaboutpd.com I sold my car in Carvana last night.

[Terry Butcher]

Well, that's cool.

[Gary Lineker]

No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothing. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

[Terry Butcher]

Wow. You need to relax.

[Gary Lineker]

I need a knock on wood. Do we have. What is this? Table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's close Enough car selling without a catch.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick fees may apply.

[Gary Lineker]

Hello and welcome to the Rest Is Football with me, Gary Lineker. And today, may I say, a very special guest. Seen you for a few years, Former teammate with England. We played in two World Cups together. I think you played in three. He's had an extraordinary career and life. And I think the thing that makes me most happy about having Terry Butcher here is that finally I've got someone that's older than me. Terry, a warm welcome.

[Terry Butcher]

Thank you very much.

[Gary Lineker]

Lovely to see you.

[Terry Butcher]

And you as well.

[Gary Lineker]

You're looking well. How you getting on?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, we're doing okay. It's busy promoting the documentary that we've got out, but I enjoy it. It's not so different to football in the way the documentary is, because.

[Gary Lineker]

Let's tell everybody what it is exactly. It's a documentary of your life and

[Terry Butcher]

it's going out on the 7th of June, couple of days, 10 o' clock at night. And that's on ITV4. And then thereafter it will be distributed. I'll be on itvx.

[Gary Lineker]

I love the title of it. Tell us what the title is.

[Terry Butcher]

The title is Butcher. I took a lot of thinking that one. Not that Butcher. Invisible Wounds.

[Gary Lineker]

Ye.

[Terry Butcher]

Which is sort of would baffle people if they didn't know my career. But obviously the stories about my son and about what he went through as well. So you've got sort of my career to stop. You know, it's. Initially, I didn't know how Stuart Burley, he's George Burley's son, so he knew our family was. He grew up with our family in many, many respects, went on holidays together. So he knew Chris. He was my son. And it's very fitting, very nice from our point of view, that he's the director and he's, you know, the big. The big force behind it. So it goes out and the start of it is me with the bloodied head and sort of thing had to come in somewhere and then it's about him. It goes nice to him straight away. So it's not just one half and then one half.

[Gary Lineker]

For those that are not aware, you tragically lost your son. He was obviously a soldier in the. In the army. And it's a very, very moving and poignant documentary, I have to say, Terry, I shed a tear. I don't mind admitting that, watching it and knowing you as I know you, how difficult was it to decide actually to make it in the first place?

[Terry Butcher]

Well, I didn't want to do it Because I don't like seeing myself on tv. I don't like seeing what I've done through football. I don't like hearing myself. So why I'm not going to listen to this? No, I don't like it. I just get embarrassed, I think. I think. And particularly what you said and all the other guys in there, Alan Brazile's, Russell OSMONDS and Ali McCoy's Some Lovely People. What he told me, Stuart Burley, was that, you know, it's going to be different and there's a real story to tell there, not just on the football. It's not just a documentary about me playing football. I started and I finished sort of thing, that career, if anything, football's given me a platform where I can get to people or get to companies or whatever, quicker. Because of that, people know roughly about me, you know, what my career was and all that bloodied head business and all that sort of thing. But there is a big story to tell here, not just on me, but for my son and for veterans. And that's why I wanted to do it and I wanted to. We wanted to have a charity when he passed away in his honor, in honor, his memory, but it was just so complicated and so much to do that we decided we'll put it on the back burner and then see if we go back to that. But we never did. And then a company called Combat to Coffee came up, and that's an Ipswich run. It's run by Nigel Seaman, who's a veteran and he suffers from ptsd. Exactly what my son did. So I've got involved with them. I'm now the patron and I love it because it's given me a purpose, it's given me a challenge, because you know what football's like. There's a challenge every game you play and a challenge every club you're at, particularly with England as well. And I. I didn't have that. I was missing that. So that this has given me a real. It's like a cathartic sort of situation where I really enjoy doing it and it. It makes me want to do it. Because you raise awareness of veterans and their families and how they can help themselves. So you have me at the start, then you have Chris, and then you've got. So you've got my career, then you've got tragedy and then you've got hope at the end. And that's that message of hope. Yeah, that hope comes through.

[Gary Lineker]

It must have been incredibly difficult to live through.

[Terry Butcher]

I still find it difficult to talk about him. But this has been easier, a lot easier. And doing this documentary, I can talk about him for much, much longer period than I ever thought I would do. I couldn't say anything at the start. And it's when you speak to people, so strangers, they ask you, how many children have you got? You know, I would say three. Three boys. And they say, oh, well, where are they now? And then, well, two. One's here and one's there. The other one passed away. And then it's. It's a conversation stopper. Yeah. Because they don't know what to say. You know, I don't blame them because it's. It's what it is. But then they. I would like them to continue and just say, oh, what happened? And then how was he? What was he like as a person and all that sort of thing. Start talking about him. Because that really. That helps my grief, that helps me not to become used to it, but to actually then be at ease with it a lot more as well. Yeah. Because it's been. It's been tough and it's been difficult, but it is. Grief is. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

And they say it's good to talk. Yeah, Terry, it's good to get these things out, isn't it? I mean, otherwise, what do you do? You keep everything inside.

[Terry Butcher]

Well, we know what we're like. Not as much footballers, but as men, we bottle up and we just say, no, I'll cope, I can manage this, we'll handle it. But there are times when you can't, and there's been quite a few times, so things will trigger you and all that sort of thing, which I think is nice. You know, the songs that we had, he played at his wedding, and the phrases that he used, the mannerisms and things like this. I mean, every night I go up the stairs and I just say goodnight to him when I go into the bedroom. And that's. That's pretty emotional, but I just. I've become used to it now and it helps me, things like that.

[Gary Lineker]

Rita's in the documentary Wife.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

It was lovely to see her in there. Yeah. I haven't seen her for so many years. Did you both handle it in different ways?

[Terry Butcher]

No, it was still the same. We handled the grief initially because some

[Gary Lineker]

people like to talk about it, some people don't. I mean, I remember when George was ill, my son. Thankfully, he survived it when he was a baby. And Michelle's never been comfortable talking about that circumstance and how close he was to losing his life, but I needed to talk about it, so we were different. But you and Rita, pretty much similar.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, very similar. We didn't get help. There's no therapy, anything like that. There is therapy out there, but we didn't, we just felt, well, do we need it now? We'll plot on and carry on and bury it and. But you know, you get to a point when, when you actually feel that I can talk about it more and that just takes time. But to do this has been cathartic and it's been very helpful for us. And yeah, she didn't want to be on there. She's quite shy so she didn't want to know. A nightmare and what are people going to say and all that sort of thing. I just said, look, you know, just tell it from the heart because it is a story and it's a great story, A tragic one, but it's a great story. So do it. So he was very good.

[Gary Lineker]

It is, it's very moving. It really is.

[Terry Butcher]

And my sons came in as well. Yeah. And then we, we had grandchildren as well. That was really nice because it seemed

[Gary Lineker]

to me that the grandchild happened during the making of it. Your first grandchild, was it?

[Terry Butcher]

Little Austin?

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. So you, the kind of news was broken to you during the documentary.

[Terry Butcher]

Oh yes, that's a great, that's a

[Gary Lineker]

great lovely little bit.

[Terry Butcher]

But it's. The whole film is not only about tears. No, no, no, of course there is.

[Gary Lineker]

He's Terry Butcher.

[Terry Butcher]

The audience I have at the premiere, they laugh when you, you mentioned your hat trick against, against Poland. Typical Gary. But it's brilliant. But there's a lot of laughs in there as well. Yeah. Obviously at the end there's lots of hope too. But I think it was Emily, the obviously my daughter in law. She was taking a picture of, of us to me and Rita and our son Edward. And then people will see it and it's, it's, it's. I think it's fully 14 seconds before I actually realize it did take a while. It did take a while.

[Gary Lineker]

But you are essentially pregnant.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, yeah. I mean this. Yeah, it does take a lot of time. You're right. It's getting worse, Gary.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah, it does.

[Terry Butcher]

But you never headed the ball, did you really? So you're not going to be like, try to avoid.

[Gary Lineker]

Should we talk a bit about football?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

You had an amazing career. I mean I played against you, I played with you.

[Terry Butcher]

I know.

[Gary Lineker]

I mean first time I remember playing against you at. When you were Ipswich and Ipswich you were bloody good side. Bobby Robson was the manager later managers for many years with England. Of course, it was quite interesting, the documentary. There are times where you didn't think you were going to make it.

[Terry Butcher]

Lots of times. In fact, I nearly gave it up early on in my career because I was too nice. I didn't kick people and it wasn't nasty.

[Gary Lineker]

Hang on a minute.

[Terry Butcher]

There was time.

[Gary Lineker]

There was a time you would.

[Terry Butcher]

You.

[Gary Lineker]

You're definitely a nice bloke, right? I know that, that's a fact. But on the field I was too nice.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. Were you? Well, I tried to kick you because you always ran away from me and scored goals. Were you left away from you with fear? Well, I don't know what it was, but you were too quick for me, so I had to, like, try and knock you down. But, yeah, I was. I was just a gentle giant on the pitch.

[Gary Lineker]

What changed you that?

[Terry Butcher]

Well, the coaches changed me. Bobby Ferguson particular, he was the number two to Bobby Robson. Yeah, he called me all names under the sun. He. It was a make or break situation. I was in two minds to give it up. So I spoke to my parents and they. My mum said, look, give it up and go to Trend Polytechnic where they were holding a place for me as a quantity surveyor. But I haven't a clue what a quantity surveyor does. My dad says, no, my dad says, carry on. He says, you can carry on and show them.

[Gary Lineker]

They survey the quantity of headers that you provide.

[Terry Butcher]

Quantity surveyors. I'm not talking about quantity surveyors. I don't have a clue what they do. But it was outside, apparently, and I thought, well, I'll take an outside job.

[Gary Lineker]

I think you made the right decision.

[Terry Butcher]

I think I did.

[Gary Lineker]

I think you probably did. And you made you. There's a lovely bit in the dock where. And again, I can relate to this because something similar with my dad. When you were thinking of going to studying quantitative surveying, that your dad had a word with the coach.

[Terry Butcher]

The coach, yeah, yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

And said, we're thinking of doing this. What do you think? He went, no, he's going to go

[Terry Butcher]

all the way to the top.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah, that was a lovely moment and. But your dad didn't tell you that years later on. No, the same thing with my dad. It was actually on his deathbed. My dad liked him and we had the really meaningful conversations, probably for the first time in our life because, you know, again, at our generation, the older generation, they never share their emotions and stuff like this. And he. And he. And he said to me, he said, you know, he said, I always knew you were going to do It. Oh. I said, well, he could have told me. I know it's the same. And he was like, wow, that's the same.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. That's really nice. When my dad used to say that, you know, you were, you know, you thought you were great today. Something he'd tell me after he wouldn't go over the top, but he'd tell me and I would always say, no, no, I wasn't. I could have done more. You know, I've just had that reaction that I wanted to play the most perfect game of football, which you were never going to do, but I. I was. My standards and everything else that he taught me, you know, I had to get rid of them when I first came to the club and be a professional. Like, shake hands of a player and on the pitch when I kick them and all that sort of thing. No, no, no, you got to get out the window. But it was nice that he did go there because it reassured him, my father. But he never told me and he just let the natural course run and I was determined and we played a reserve game and Bobby Ferguson was the coach. I got taken off at halftime because I'd kicked. I came to a point when I thought, I've got to be aggressive. So I kicked every member of the opposition. I think the referee as well, he said, I've got to take you off because you're going to get sent off. And that was the best thing for me because then I realized I don't want to be taken off at half time anymore. I want to last the game. But if I can play a little bit like that, like I have done, and temper it a bit.

[Gary Lineker]

Let me get this straight. Right, so firstly, you're not aggressive enough.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Firstly, then you're too aggressive.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

And then you found the middle ground.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Okay.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Okay. Yeah, I think I've got it. We've got to talk about Bobby Robson, Right?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

What team he got together there at Ipswich. I mean, you know, people talk about Ipswich Provincial club, Suffolk, you know, they're not a giant. It's like Leicester in many ways. We had our moment.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

And Ipswich's moment was really your time, wasn't it? I mean, won a European trophy. You had so many. You played alongside Russell Osman. I know Russell really well. He's in the documentary as well. At the back, you've. John, you have so many good players. You had the Dutch midfielders, Murin and Tyson.

[Terry Butcher]

Muran and Tyson. Yeah, yeah. But he was one that. He was there, obviously, a long while at Pullman. Road. And he built teams and then dismantled them, built another team then he's done that all over Europe or, you know, all his career. And I was at a good time then because just before me, four, five, six years before I joined the club, the club were in some cup semi finals and they're in Europe as well and all that sort of thing. So it was. Yeah, he set a really good standard. But you know, Bobby, he was like. He used to get your name wrong and I mean, people can't.

[Gary Lineker]

I mean, people think you're exaggerating with some of the stories. There's the lovely one in, in the documentary about you cutting his grass or.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. Walking his dog.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. You walked his dog for him.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, that's why I was in the England team.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

And then he walked his dog into my house. He was talking that much about football.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

When I had to say, bobby, you don't live here, he looked around and he says, no, I don't. I'll see you tomorrow. And then he walked out because he was crazy. But I mean, he's. Remember when he first came, he was, he was. Where you first came into the England squad, everybody was saying, is he always like this? Because they didn't, they, they weren't used to this, to how he behaved and what he did and his beliefs and everything else. But once you, once you got to know him, it was just, he was just incredible. He really was. He was. He. You know, you go through a brick wall for him. Yeah. He was loyal and honest as well.

[Gary Lineker]

And he was, he was super intelligent as well. And his interests went way beyond football. I think the reason he get into these pickles and names things because he had so much going on in his mind, probably he did my favorite, My favorite. I actually worked with him on television a few years after and he was as a one off and he came in, came in the studio and. And he's going, I've lost my phone. I've lost my phone. Okay. Okay, Bobby, we'll have a look where everyone's looking around the studio. This phone rings, right? So you can hear it going. And he goes, picks it out of his inside pocket and he goes, hello? He said, hang on, I'll call you back. I'm just looking for my ph. I mean, it was one of the things that I think made you, made us all love him so much and that thing that you wanted to play for him, but you don't want people also to think that he was a fool because. No, he's far from it. Was a really intelligent guy. He was brilliant tactically and great motivator as well, wasn't he?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. He dropped the odd word in here and there. And it was his actions that sort of made us love him. I think it was a story about him when he was in a TV studio covering. Covering another champ, European Championship at World Cup. And they. In the background was a sort of drop of. Of Paris, Eiffel Tower. And Bobby comes. I think that tournament was held in Holland or something like that. And he came into the studio and he looked at the Eiffel Tower. He says, oh, you get a great view from here. So. Yeah, but he was. He was. And he was. He was one that for me, it was like 14 continuous years of serving under him, the longest ever. And you got to know him. I knew this well. He used to give me Ralekins in real role against. Yeah. Some of which you see on the doorstep after a game. We won the game. And he'd give me a rollicking, so. But he would give me. He would give me that rollicking when he really meant to give somebody else a bit of a go. But I could always take it and I knew exactly what he was doing and that's why he had a go at me. So some of the players would say, well, hang on a minute. You know, do you not like that? It's not, you know, you shouldn't be getting that sort of criticism. And I just said, well, look, that's what. That's what he does. So I was fine. So we had a really good relationship. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Over many years. Some good players in that team.

[Terry Butcher]

Oh, yeah. Some right characters in the team. Yeah. Brilliant characters. Where, you know, you still see them. I still see them. I don't know. You still see them when we do functions with them and. Yeah. Q and A's and all that. And it's just lovely. It's really brilliant.

[Gary Lineker]

You still go and watch Ipswich.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, I watch Ipswich, yeah. But I actually go to the ground now. I just. I just watch it on the tv.

[Gary Lineker]

Just.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, I do. I mean, you know, obviously back in the Premier League, which is brilliant. Yeah. Kieran McKenna's done a fantastic job there. I mean, the back is. I mean, the whole thing, the whole club now is set up as a Premier League club. There's no doubt about it.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

And what he has to do now is obviously, Kieran McKenna, his key. Ipswich in the Premier League.

[Gary Lineker]

That just shows you.

[Terry Butcher]

His biggest task.

[Gary Lineker]

Just shows you that sometimes sticking with a coach, when you think he knows what he's doing is not a bad idea because obviously, I mean he took them up, didn't he? Successive promotions in the Premier League, incredibly difficult ask. Didn't quite happen. Go down. They didn't sack him and lo and behold they're doing okay again.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, I mean you can't see life at ibswich without Kieran McKenna because he's got them, you know, they know the system, they know what they're doing, they know their jobs. He makes them play a certain way which suits them and he's very clever, you know. Now he's, you know, this is probably his biggest task is to keep Ipswich up there in the Premier League. But I'm sure he'll do it and I'm sure it's about the key is getting players in that can play in the Premier League that they probably played there before with a point to prove hungry people just like Sunderland did. Sunderland did a fantastic job coming out and staying recruitment. So that's the objective. But it's just nice back in the Premier League, back at the top. Unfortunately not like Leicester.

[Gary Lineker]

Thanks Terry for mentioning that. We had our time though. We had our. Would I swap it?

[Terry Butcher]

No. What a time you had.

[Gary Lineker]

What a time in K win the league and then the FA Cup a few years later.

[Terry Butcher]

I'd love to see you run round to TV studios now in your underpants. I think that was great. That was one of the highlights.

[Gary Lineker]

Whatever turned you on, Terry?

[Terry Butcher]

Mind you, I've seen you in your underpants quite a few times.

[Gary Lineker]

Let's not go down.

[Terry Butcher]

Let's not go down there.

[Gary Lineker]

How difficult was it to leave Ipswich?

[Terry Butcher]

It was quite easy. Just got in the car and drove to the station and stayed. Very simple. And now I had to go. I didn't want to go. I just signed a four year deal a year before, so. And I was captain of the club and yeah, it's a club I supported but they ipsus had built a stand in 82, 83.

[Gary Lineker]

And you paid for it and.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, well all the others that left as well, you know, the Mariners, the Tysons, the Murins and all that, Alan, Brazil, they all left because of, because of that, the payments. And I was the last one. So the manager said, look, you've got to go. And I said, no, I don't want to go, Bobby, I want to stay. And he says, no, you got to go. And I says I don't want to go. He says, you are going because it's the last payment.

[Gary Lineker]

I think people find that probably difficult to believe nowadays. Because players power shifted to a degree.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

In those days, if the club wanted to sell you, they could make it very difficult for you if you didn't go.

[Terry Butcher]

Well, you knew. Yeah. You knew in those days.

[Gary Lineker]

Almost like pieces of meat.

[Terry Butcher]

Well, in those days you could get away with murder, really, if you're the club and manager. So, yeah, in the end I thought, well, I've been at the club 10 years as a pro, maybe it's time to go. But I didn't know who was going to come in for. I actually went to the World cup, sort of, you know, I could have had a sign on me, you know, available to buy. Please inquire here. So I think that would have been interesting. Yeah, but.

[Gary Lineker]

And then could have put it on the head.

[Terry Butcher]

On the headband. Yeah. And then we were sort of approached by Rangers and then soon S came in and, you know, soon as we played against. Soon as. He's tough. As tough as teak. Yes. And even tougher. I mean, and that's why players were going there was because he wanted to spark things off in Scotland and it was a bit of a gamble. Yes, but. But we did it, enjoyed it.

[Gary Lineker]

Before we move on to Rangers, what was the highlight of your time at Ipswich? I mean, there must have been quite

[Terry Butcher]

a few because, well, the UEFA cup was one. You know, you've got 62. Ipswich won the title, First Division, then 78 won the FA Cup. And, you know, to win a European trophy was a big good addition to those stars that you have on the shirt. So it's different. I mean, I tell people we didn't want to win the league, they want to win the FA cup because we'd already done that sort of thing. But that wasn't the case with the club to have done it.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah, but we.

[Terry Butcher]

We were searching. We were searching for the treble.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. Who's the best player Ipswich played?

[Terry Butcher]

Kevin Beatty.

[Gary Lineker]

Beatty was great, wasn't he? Was ability to score goals.

[Terry Butcher]

To score goals, play anywhere, couldn't he? Yeah, well, he was out in Escape to Victory. The beat was out there. He's Michael Kane's.

[Gary Lineker]

Remember there one or two Ipswich players. Wasn't Osman was in there as well, was there?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, yeah. Johnny Walk, Kim o'. Callaghan. Yeah, he was there. I think Kevin Beatty's biggest claim in Escape to Victory was that behind the scenes he was arm wrestling Sylvester Stallone and he beat him. He beat with his left hand and his right.

[Gary Lineker]

He beat Rocky.

[Terry Butcher]

He beat Rocky.

[Gary Lineker]

Oh, my word.

[Terry Butcher]

Like that. Yeah. He's now heavyweight champion of the world.

[Gary Lineker]

But he could play football as well.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, he was strong. He was naturally strong. Yeah. And people say he was a bit like Duncan Edwards. This is going back a long time, but he just. A climb in the air. He's just unbelievable leap. He wasn't six foot four like me. He was probably about six one. But what, you know, the timing and everything else, he was incredible.

[Gary Lineker]

For our young listeners, Duncan Edwards was the. The great young Manchester United player that sadly lost his life on.

[Terry Butcher]

That's right, plane crash.

[Gary Lineker]

But Rangers, it's a big football club, isn't it? It's huge expectation.

[Terry Butcher]

No, it's massive. You don't realize what it's like. And I remember when. When Gaza was with the England squads. Gaza's like you're playing Mickey Mouse football. And I said, well, he ended up there himself. I said, don't. Don't knock it till you tried it. When he tried it, he says, you're exactly right. It's special. It's. It's. There's so much attention. It's a national game. The press contingent is huge as well. It's. And it's all over the newspapers, everywhere, radio and things like that. So you've got to. When you play for Rangers or Celtic, you've got to be at your best every game because the opposition don't want to get beat five or six nil. And they're going to try, like bears, to make sure that they don't lose and maybe even sneak a win. So, you know, you can beat Celtic on a. On a Boxing Day or New Year's Day, then the next day you're playing something like Hibs or Motherwell or something like that, and you could lose because you were so up for the Celtic game and then you couldn't get to that height again for the next game and therefore you got turned over. So there were pitfalls.

[Gary Lineker]

You loved it up there, didn't you? Didn't you stay up there for years and years and hotels on and off?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, yeah. I'm the only Englishman in the Scottish hall of Fame, so it's quite honest.

[Gary Lineker]

Are you the only Englishman?

[Terry Butcher]

I think so, yeah. The only Englishman, yeah. Wow. Which is unique.

[Gary Lineker]

How were they when it. How did they deal with it, the. The Scottish football fans? When. Because there were a lot of English players, weren't they?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

At that point, Graham soon has brought quite a few in.

[Terry Butcher]

What.

[Gary Lineker]

Was there any kind of pushback at any stage from. From the fans going, hang on a minute. Because, you know, there is a bit of rivalry Between England, Scotland.

[Terry Butcher]

On the football side of things, there were knockbacks and they came from. Not Rangers, non Rangers supporters. Rangers fans loved it. I mean, there'd be lots of Crosses of St. George about the Rangers fans because Rangers generally don't go and watch a lot of Scotland games. So, you know, so they sort of cheer on the English boys when it comes to. Yeah, when it comes to playing Scotland. And I remember being in the hotels, I was owner of the hotel and I had to do the work, the evening shift on a Saturday night. And that Saturday was coincided with the England Scotland game in the Euros and the Gas goal. And I was on shift and then at night and I went in and I'm thinking, well, thank goodness England won. So I was serving people and I looked at some of the people coming and they had all knocks and bloody noses and chips on their eyes and that looked like a lot of people are coming to the, you know, for after a fight. And I said to the boy, to the guys, I said, well, did you not. Did you meet some English fans and all that sort of thing? Was there trouble? And they said, no, no, the trouble was from the Scotland fans because when they were Rangers fans, guys that lobbed it over Colin Hendry and scored, the Rangers fans went, oh, what a goal. Because he was their player. And of course the other Scotland fans that weren't Rangers fans started fighting with them.

[Gary Lineker]

I bet they did. Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

It was like a war.

[Gary Lineker]

I'll bet you played with Gansa. Yeah, obviously with England and at Rangers. How was he at Rangers? Just the same as he is everywhere else.

[Terry Butcher]

Well, I didn't play with him at Rangers.

[Gary Lineker]

Oh, you didn't cross? He was after you?

[Terry Butcher]

Just after me. Just after me. But I would watch him a lot. When it came to the radio or TV or something like that, I'd do the Rangers games. And I saw him. Yeah, I interviewed him at Park Kidd after they'd been Celtic. And that's when he came out with that statement about, you know, it's like it's not Mickey Mouse football now. But he was lovely. I mean, the stories of up there, of legendary stories, and the Rangers fans absolutely adored it. And he was. He was crazy, but at the same time, what a player. He'd win a game on his own and he did that frequently.

[Gary Lineker]

We've all got one. What's your favorite Gaza Story?

[Terry Butcher]

The favorite Gaza Story is right when Walter Smith's the manager now and Gaz is there. And after training one day, Brian Loudrup. Great. Brian Loudrup goes in to see Walter Smith. And he says, we have a problem. So Wallace says, okay, fine, what is it? He says, paul Gascoigne. So he says. Waller says, oh, what's he done now? He says, well, we go do training, come back in, Gazza comes back early, gets his clothes up, rushes into the shower, has a shower, we take our time and chat and then we eventually go into the shower. So he says, well, what's the problem with that? He says, well, Gazza comes out, he says he gets dried, puts clothes on and goes home. So he's what he wants, you know. Well, that's normal. He says, no, but they're my cloth. I used to cut ties up and all that sort of thing. Oh, absolutely.

[Gary Lineker]

Let's take a break there and then we come back. We'll get a bit more Gaza at some point, a bit more Rangers and definitely England. This episode is brought to you by hotels.com booking your next hotel for a work trip or a weekend away to see your team play with Hotels.com each day brings you closer to rewards. Introducing the all new 10 for 100 from Hotel Hotels.com it's exactly what it sounds like. Stay 10 nights, get back 100 pounds in Hotels.com cash to use on your next getaway. It's a simple and flexible way to get more value from the trips you are already taking, whether it's a quick trip or something you've been planning for a while. 10 for 100 with Hotels.com rewards. It's all in the name members. 18 plus average cost per night in a booking must be £75 or more to count, excluding taxes, fees and Hotels.com cash. This episode is brought to you by Christopher Nolan's epic new film the Odyssey. The must see motion picture event of the year. It's the legendary story of Odysseus embarking on the 10 year journey home after the Trojan War. Think monsters, gods and immense battles. So when we're asked to pick a truly Odyssean player from our own generation, I started to think of the ones who really had to graft. The ones who showed real grit, navigating setbacks, pushing for those later breakthroughs, beating the odds to reach the top with maybe a few less mythical creatures. Our kickers off as my player is probably the oldest of the lot, a certain Peter Beardsley I've gone for. Yeah, I don't think people are aware of this, but he eventually had to go and play in Canada when he was like late teens.

[Terry Butcher]

Vancouver Whitecaps was it?

[Gary Lineker]

That's right, Vancouver Whitecaps and played over there in that era when American. The football side in America was. Was quite popular for a while. He was doing okay over there, playing really well I think. Then he got kind of like trial at Manchester United or something. Didn't quite. And then eventually he made his name.

[Terry Butcher]

Brilliant. I'm going for Stuart Pierce. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

From where he started. Electrician.

[Terry Butcher]

Non league football.

[Gary Lineker]

Wilson wasn't an electrician. Mark Hughes, was he?

[Terry Butcher]

Sparky. Sparky.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. There you go. There's another one.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. So then for him to do what he did in his career and the

[Gary Lineker]

way he got there, play for Eng

[Terry Butcher]

in World Cups and Euros and had the career that he had.

[Gary Lineker]

Proper warrior.

[Terry Butcher]

Did you have any skills before football? No, I was too busy working on my first touchmaker. I'll go. Mo Salah.

[Gary Lineker]

Mo Salah.

[Terry Butcher]

Salah.

[Gary Lineker]

He had a journey.

[Terry Butcher]

He had a journey. Well, you probably know a bit more about the beforehand but I did a

[Gary Lineker]

documentary with him once and I didn't realize that, you know, when he was.

[Terry Butcher]

He wanted to be as a footballer

[Gary Lineker]

and he used to. I think he could like travel like. Like four hours there and four hours there really Every day to train.

[Terry Butcher]

That's mad.

[Gary Lineker]

Incredible. Incredible drive, conviction. Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

But also that comeback bounce back ability in corner, don't they. I was with Matt Fiorentina.

[Gary Lineker]

I know.

[Terry Butcher]

And he was a superstar then. I knew it. He went to Rome, then went to Liverpool, failed at Chelsea before. He went on loan to Fiorentina as well. But to become the superstar that he

[Gary Lineker]

is today, I'd possibly pick you as well.

[Terry Butcher]

Me?

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. Because at one stage you were just Mo Salah's taxi. You got all serious. You're the exact opposite. You burst onto the scene and then kind of fade. I was good with that, Gus. Very good. Every now and again. There you have it. Our Odyssean players. Whether it's on the pitch or on the screen, that kind of resilience and perseverance is what separates the greats from the rest. And to truly experience such an ambitious journey, it demands the big screen. Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey is in cinemas from July 17th. Book your tickets from June 15th. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate and easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps Things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies, most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid market exchange rate like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise T's and C's apply. Welcome back to the Rest is football with certain Terry Butcher and me, Gary Lineker. Terry, what was your highlights at Rangers? I mean, you. You won a few trophies there, didn't you? Was it three titles, was it or.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, three titles in four years. I broke a few doors down, scored a few own goals. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Did you break doors down?

[Terry Butcher]

I did, yeah. Got charged as well by the police of the peace, but they dropped it eventually. I scored more goals past Chris woods than any other Scottish striker and I've got a criminal record as well. And I broke my leg. But apart from that. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Duncan Ferguson in disguise.

[Terry Butcher]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I had a great time.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

The highlight is, I think the first year when we won the title in 87, I went up in 86 to win a title I hadn't won a title before. And you know what it's like. It's just incredible.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah, I do know what it's like not to win a title.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. But you sort of take sort of like a yoke on your shoulders, the pressure, and when you win the title, it's just lifted off. Happy as Larry. So to win the first title, that was the first time Rangers have won the title in nine years. So they've seen a lot of people winning it and now they were winning it and it was the English revolution, as you said. Yeah. And it was just a great time to be there, really was.

[Gary Lineker]

It was an excellent team at that point.

[Terry Butcher]

Oh, it's a good team. Yeah. Ray Wilkins was up there as well. Graham Roberts, Mark Walters, some really good players. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

I mean, you must follow, obviously, Scottish football because of your time there. I'd be interested to see what you made of the whole thing last week with Celtic sneaking the league over Hearts. I think it was a shame for Scottish football, wasn't it, that Harts didn't win it or. And that very dubious, fair decision.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. You can't get rid of Var now. It's there, unfortunately. It's got to improve. I would have loved to have actually fingertip the ball 20 yards into the stand.

[Gary Lineker]

Exactly.

[Terry Butcher]

I mean, the fingers, it must be so powerful, his fingers when he. The head defender when he did it.

[Gary Lineker]

I mean, anyone that's remotely followed football, watched football, would.

[Terry Butcher]

Would.

[Gary Lineker]

I find it extraordinary.

[Terry Butcher]

But anyway, yeah, but then back in, I think it was 86. Celtic won the title. They had to beat St. Mirren, I think it was, by about five goals to win it. And the hearts, actually, at that time, they. They should have won it, but they lost against Dundee, but. And then Saint Mirren sort of not caved in, but Celtic beat Saint Mirin, the required total and they won it. So they came with a really good late run to win it and they. They've obviously come this year with a really good late run to win it as well. So fair play to them. But the game was. Obviously was Celtic, Motherwell. And it was on live on the tv. And Rita, my wife, she says, let's put it on, see how they're doing. Do you not want to know? And I went, no, I don't want to know. I said, because I can't work out who I want to win, who I want to lose. And I did the best thing and not watch it.

[Gary Lineker]

Not watch it at all.

[Terry Butcher]

And of course, you tune in later on. Yeah. You knew what would happen. So, yeah, it is heartbreaking when you lose a title and it's, you know. But it's great to see three teams involved in the title race.

[Gary Lineker]

Much better.

[Terry Butcher]

That is so much better.

[Gary Lineker]

Good for Scottish football. Got a lovely segue here, because you mentioned 1986. We also mentioned how far you can flick a ball with your hand. Shall we talk about England World Cups? You know, we were part of that World cup, weren't we? And, you know, it was tough at this time. Do you remember Monterey, how hot it was?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, it was.

[Gary Lineker]

I mean. And again, they're playing. The teams are playing in Monterey this time around, so. And it was in the 40s, 42, 43 degrees centigrade. I remember. It was murder, wasn't it?

[Terry Butcher]

It was a. As well, I think. Yeah. Yeah. But you. You remember the. Because we had the whole hotel, didn't we? And the waiters and the staff. The staff were brilliant. Yeah, they looked after us really well. We didn't have a lot of drink there. But what we used to do after the games, remember, we used to go up to that monastery.

[Gary Lineker]

Oh, yes, we went up to the

[Terry Butcher]

monastery and had a barbecue. Yeah. So it was pretty grim the first game we played because we lost.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

And even more grim when we only drew the second game, and then it got better. But we had a great time there. Up there with drinking all the. I think the. The monks beers or something like that. We had a great time, we enjoyed it, but it was. It was. The start we had was awful, wasn't it?

[Gary Lineker]

Oh, well, it was tough when we played Portugal, didn't we, in the first game, and we got beaten and then. Then everything went wrong against Morocco, wasn't it so. Because Ray Wilkins got sent off for just kind of underarming the ball at the referee.

[Terry Butcher]

It was a disgrace.

[Gary Lineker]

I mean. And then Robbo did his shoulder and. But we battled on for a draw. Then we had to beat Poland.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Can't remember what happened in that game.

[Terry Butcher]

No, we fluked it. I think somehow we got through.

[Gary Lineker]

We sneaked through and then Paraguay and then we played, obviously, Argentina. I think that's quite possibly one of the most famous games of football ever played, if not the biggest game. I think maybe it was usurped by the World Cup Final because of the stories of Messi and Mbappe and Scornowick and all that, and in Qatar four years ago. But I think that's probably the most, let's say, infamous game ever played.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

And you. You had a really good view of Diego on both those goals. First one, I. I didn't see the humble right. I was.

[Terry Butcher]

I didn't see it.

[Gary Lineker]

You. You didn't see it?

[Terry Butcher]

I didn't see it. I'm 15 yards away. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

So I didn't see. I was on the halfway line, obviously.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

You didn't say it, really.

[Terry Butcher]

I didn't see it because I think Terry Fennec and Glenn Hoddle and Peter Shilton ran past me. Yeah. Touching their hands and claiming the handball. Yeah. And I thought, well, I better join in. And more than that, because I've only ever seen.

[Gary Lineker]

I. Well, we'd never really, really talk about. You don't talk about after game. Did you see it or did you? Not everyone was going, it was handball. So I've always seen the images of you touching your hand.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

So I presumed you'd seen it.

[Terry Butcher]

No, no, no. I just followed suit. So I think. I think the more that go around the referee and. And the more he might think about it. But he was adamant that it was a goal. The linesman was away.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

Running away. And it was a goal. And it was. It was a shot, wasn't it? I mean, like, it wasn't a great game. The game was poor the first time, wasn't it?

[Gary Lineker]

But conditions were tough. The pitch was terrible.

[Terry Butcher]

Remember how bad the pitch was? Shocking. It was. Absolutely.

[Gary Lineker]

Sure.

[Terry Butcher]

We'd been there a year before, hadn't we? Y. We went there and it was. It was. It was poor. Then you sort of thought, well, they're going to get it better, and they never did. Dressing rooms were better, but the pitch was a waffle. But no, there's no excuse because at the end of the day, he got the second goal, which I had a better view of twice. Thanks very much. Thanks for. I've had therapy. I've had therapy for that.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah, no, of course you're not. You. You've often said you. Well, Peter shorten said as well. I think you were the two people that, like, could never forgive him.

[Terry Butcher]

No.

[Gary Lineker]

Diego still.

[Terry Butcher]

Not really, no. Well, he's gone now, but.

[Gary Lineker]

Well, he's gone. Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. No, it was one that. With my dad, especially being in military, in the Navy, he. He taught me standards and taught me sort of morals, and this was. This broke. That broke the code sort of thing, that you didn't do that. And if you did it, then you admitted to it. Yeah. So I got away with it sort of thing because they don't replay the game as. But he didn't do that either. And I'm just. That was so disappointing. It didn't spoil my memory of him being the best player I've ever played against, because he was. Without a shadow of a doubt. But it was. It was sort of tarnished it. And people say to me, well, in the dressing room afterwards, what was. What was the feeling? Well, I wasn't in the dressing room, I was in the drugs room. And then he came over and I just tapped my head or tapped my hand and just, you know, to say. As if to say which one. And he said it was his head.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

So he's a clever guy because at the end of the day, if he'd have said hand, I think I would have introduced him to my hand around his throat.

[Gary Lineker]

You do? Surprised?

[Terry Butcher]

I strangled him, I tell you.

[Gary Lineker]

I know. Yeah, I know. But the second goal, I mean, he was unstoppable, wasn't he, really?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

I mean, because we had the plan, didn't we, that we were trying. Whenever he got the ball, everyone and whoever's closest would try. But rather like Messi, one on one, he was almost impossible to stop.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, he was. And he was. He could. Low center of gravity, big thighs, so we could move. And he was really, really the perfect sort of number 10, really. But when he, I think it was a foul. Was it a foul on Peter Beardsley or.

[Gary Lineker]

I think it was on.

[Terry Butcher]

Hoddle on, Glenn.

[Gary Lineker]

Hoddle on. Just before he gets the ball.

[Terry Butcher]

Just before he gets the ball. If Var was around. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

We might have won that game. One nil.

[Terry Butcher]

Well, that's about the only decision they can probably get correct anyway.

[Gary Lineker]

They got it wrong anyway.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. But. And then he came towards me and I saw Peter Reed on my right shoulder and I'm thinking, peter's there, so I'll block the left off and let him go to the right. Poor old Peter was chugging away.

[Gary Lineker]

It was hard conditions.

[Terry Butcher]

I think he ran on fumes. Yeah. So.

[Gary Lineker]

So.

[Terry Butcher]

So. And then he's gone past me and obviously Peter and now he's going at Terry Fennec and then Terry Fennec had already been booked, so he couldn't bring him down. And then I'm just getting back and he goes past Peter Shield and he. And now he's got the open goal and I think. And I can get this. And I'm inches away from just touching. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Well, a lot of people thought for a while that maybe it was you'd scored an own goal. I had people say to me, I think Terry Butcher scored that guy. I went, no, he didn't.

[Terry Butcher]

It was the greatest home goal I ever scored and greatest goal in football history. If I'd have scored, scored. No, I wish I had.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

You just see me in the tv, just banging machine pads, like, annoyed. I'm annoyed at myself. And I think if you look at the. At the goal as a defender, you'd be like, nah, I should have done much better than that. So there's two goals that he got that obviously decided the game that you're so disappointed with. Obviously the decision was wrong, but also is it's not stopping that brilliance because it was a brilliant goal and that's it.

[Gary Lineker]

I mean, you can look at yourself all you like, but he. He was like, they're so difficult. They're so incredibly skillful. Such a brilliant form.

[Terry Butcher]

He was a very good passer of the ball as well. Other players.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

So it wasn't just the. The individual skill. It was like a team.

[Gary Lineker]

It's mad, isn't it, that probably the. Certainly the best two players, I think, in my lifetime. Both Argentinian.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Both diminutive. Both left foot.

[Terry Butcher]

Both left footed. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Both do everything. It's incredible. Incredible, really. Which could do one or two of those as well. Hopefully at some point.

[Terry Butcher]

Really good.

[Gary Lineker]

Italia 90 was. Was special. Our second World Cup Both, obviously, with Bobby Robson. That's the one thing I look back, I think, I think we were. Don't know about whether you agree or not. Well, I think we were stronger in 90 than 86, I think.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, I think we were and I

[Gary Lineker]

think we were genuine, you know, in 86, I thought we did reasonably well to get where we did and, and we could, you know, we could have won that game, but we didn't. But I think 90. I. It's the one thing I look back on my career and just think, God, if only. If only one, that penalty shootout. Because then you. Then you within touching difference of footballing immortality.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. I had a question recently and someone said, you know, if you would change one thing in football, what would you do? And I'd say win that semi final

[Gary Lineker]

and win the penalty shootout.

[Terry Butcher]

Win the penalty shootout.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

That was, you know, you were off the field.

[Gary Lineker]

Would you have taken one? Would you have been up for taking one if you don't.

[Terry Butcher]

No, no, no, I wouldn't. If I had to, I would.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

But I was. I took one penalty in my life professionally, and I scored. So I've got a better record.

[Gary Lineker]

100 record.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

I love it. But I.

[Terry Butcher]

Bob, I was going to put it in the right hand corner because as you look at the goal, because I'm left footed. Yeah. And I saw the keeper move across to the, to his left and I'm thinking, oh, no. And I bumbled it into the corner of the other side. Worst penalty ever. But it went in.

[Gary Lineker]

Doesn't matter if they go in. That's all that counts.

[Terry Butcher]

That's right. So that counts.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. I think we got so close, didn't we? And you ended up being captain in that.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. Because Brian was injured, he went home early and Schultz didn't want to do that. He wanted to be just concentrating on his, on his game. So. Yeah. To lead the team out at a World cup semi final. There's only three people ever done that and I'm one of them.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

So I was more worried about the rest of you boys following me out because I thought someone, if it was Stuart Pierce or somebody would actually say, hold on, boys, let him walk out on his own. You know, that's the most embarrassing thing when you just walk out on your own. You look around, there's no teammates there. I thought they were going to do that.

[Gary Lineker]

Why the World cup semi final? Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think we. Later.

[Terry Butcher]

That's a stupid thing that goes through your mind. Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Well, I'm glad things go through your mind like that. Well, I'm gonna. Just before we finish, I'm gonna ask you before we go as well, about how do you think our chances are in the World cup coming up? But I just want you to reassure me that the story that I told about you when we played Yugoslavia, and we're in the tunnel, because, you know, your memory sometimes plays and you think, did that actually really happen when you were shaking that cage between the two teams, Yugoslavia on one side, England were on the other. I was at the back of the line, and you were going shaking this cage tiger. And I could see the fear in the eyes of the Yugoslavs. It was never a tough race.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, obviously. Yeah, it was.

[Gary Lineker]

We were 4 nil up in 20 minutes.

[Terry Butcher]

We were. But we were held there. We was there for about. About five to six minutes. And that's a long time when you're in a tunnel with the opposition because you want to. You want to get at them. Yeah. Sort of thing. So I had this thing about case Tigers. Anyway. I used to walk around the dressing room because you just sat there.

[Gary Lineker]

You do know where the three lines. Not Tigers.

[Terry Butcher]

You do. I know, but it's a story, so don't worry about it. But it's not correct. But you would just sit there and just contemplate and all that. You were so relaxed, laid back. But I was tense, nervous, but I wanted to get my adrenaline in at the right time anyway, so I was on about Cadence Tigers. And I'm the sort of anxious, but I'm. I'm active. Right. As you're sort of passive before games. But it just bought into it. Everybody expected you to do it and all that sort of thing, and it helped with the process. But no. Yeah, it was. It was. It was roughly right. I'm happy with that. That side of the story. But Tony Adams was in front of me, I think, and I started doing this and he did the same. And then a lot of the England players down there, and they were doing the same as well. I didn't know he wouldn't do that. I think you're asleep at the time at the back, but. But it's just one of those things that you look in their eyes and you. You say, they've gone here already before the game started, because that was a very big game for them. So it was great. Was it Player part? I don't know.

[Gary Lineker]

But look, 4 nil up in 20 minutes. I think. I think it might have done. We'll never know, obviously. It's.

[Terry Butcher]

Did you score in that game?

[Gary Lineker]

No. Oh, I would have mentioned it if I. I was. I was. I finished the game and I'm. That was disappointed. Of course it was, because Arguing before. No, not score.

[Terry Butcher]

I mean, it's dreadful.

[Gary Lineker]

You're most famous, a little bit like I am, for pointing at my head and. And saying worrying things about Paul Gascoigne. Have a word with him. I think we're both remembered for something to do with our heads more than perhaps what we did with the football. Sweden away.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

Nil. Nil.

[Gary Lineker]

Nil. Nil.

[Terry Butcher]

World cup qualifier.

[Gary Lineker]

And we needed a draw, didn't we, if I remember.

[Terry Butcher]

Well, we didn't want to lose. I think they went through as winners, didn't we? They have the group, so they were. Yeah, yeah. So we had one game to play after that, but it was important. And I was a captain. All white kit. And then I made the mistake in the first half, I think, and I've got a free header and I'm going to melt this and see if Gary can run and get it over the top. And then I. This little Swedish player, extreme, I think it was jumped up in front of me.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

And I headed the back of his head. He got stitches as well as me later on, but that was. I knew it was a bad one because my hand was covered in blood. You know, you put your hand over the cut.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

And I'd had a few cuts in my career, but this was really bad. I knew I wasn't in trouble, but I knew that I had to get treatment, which I did. And in the end, they bandaged it round as a stop gap and that was taken off at half time. But remember Doc Crane?

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

Bless him. He's passed away now. The doctor, he came in to stitch me and there's not much flesh around the wound in my head and the forehead. And he was sweating. Whether it was the whiskey that he had upstairs, I'm not too sure. Sweating. And he. If his hands were shaking as well because he knew that he had to get it done quick.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

And it was. It was probably about 2 inches, 3 inches. And he only got five stitches in. He had seven events.

[Gary Lineker]

Way more blood.

[Terry Butcher]

So I can still. It's still going to come out with the blood. So that's why we put a different shirt on and then went out. And that was the same as the first time.

[Gary Lineker]

And at the end of the game, all the photographers surrounded you. Yeah. In the docket's really good on that. And the images that one when you did the big eyes, such a. I mean, it's. It's like one of the most iconic photographic shots, I think, in football history.

[Terry Butcher]

I think people either put that picture on the dartboard or they put it in front of the fire to stop the kids going on. But I just. They saw them all there and I thought, well, I can get rid of him by one action and that's doing the eyes. Yeah. So they got. They got their snapped all around the world and then that was it. But I must have had a knock on the head because we got to the airport and I bought all the press a drink.

[Gary Lineker]

Think.

[Terry Butcher]

What about that? Well, it's expensive in Sweden. I don't know. My head. I was.

[Gary Lineker]

Must have concussed.

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah. But if you buy the press contingent now, you need a mortgage on it because there's so many people.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. And social media representatives. Absolutely. And everything else. And dare I say podcasts.

[Terry Butcher]

Yes.

[Gary Lineker]

As well. But yeah, it must be a feeling. It's. It is slightly odd, isn't it, that. I mean, I. It's the same with me with the gas going thing. It's the one question I get asked, ask more than anything else really, about my football career. Not the goals on the pitch.

[Terry Butcher]

That was another one. I thought you weren't going to say that, but that was another one. But all the goals and things you did, it was you best remembered for pointing to your head. And I'm best remembered for a bloodied head.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah.

[Terry Butcher]

Crazy.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah. But I think we, we can remind people ourselves of our occasional goodness on the pitch. England this summer, can they win it? Can we do it?

[Terry Butcher]

Yeah, yeah, we can do it. I think there's no real out and out favorites. Perhaps Spain and perhaps France might, you might say, never write off Argentina. Yeah. But I think we've got a good chance and because there's not much expectation, it sort of helps England in a way. Yeah. There's no, you know, until it. And you get the knockout stages and all that stuff.

[Gary Lineker]

There is less expectation, I think, than normal. Why do you think that is? Because we've got a lot of good players.

[Terry Butcher]

Players. Yeah. I just think because of our record. But I think it's about picking the right blend in the team. And I think the squad is going to play a big important part. Not just have, you know, 11, 12, 13 players that always play, you know, you've got to mix it up a little bit with the heat and with everything else. And it's going to be so important. The substitutions, the substitutes got to Come on and make an impact. And we have players that can do that. So I think we've got a very good squad. It's about who you leave out in some respects as well, but it. I am confident. I wasn't before when Thomas Tugel was appointed, but I am confident now he'll get it right.

[Gary Lineker]

Are you happy to have a German manager?

[Terry Butcher]

No, but I'm back. But I'll back him. I want England boys. I want England lads there. But I'll back him because at the end of the day, he's. He's in charge of a very good group of players.

[Gary Lineker]

Terry, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Before we finish, tell us what it's called. Butcher. Great Butcher.

[Terry Butcher]

Butcher. Invisible Wounds.

[Gary Lineker]

Butcher of Suffolk.

[Terry Butcher]

Watch it because it's. It's. It's a sad story in many respects. Probably particularly sad watching me play again, but obviously then you've got hope at the end and that's that hope, that message we want to get across. Good laughs. There's some nice laughs.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah, no, they're all right. I. I watched it and I. I really enjoyed it and also very moved by it and I think it's a great bit of television, so I would also recommend everyone watch it.

[Terry Butcher]

Thank you very much. Love it.

[Gary Lineker]

See?

[Terry Butcher]

10 seconds.

[Gary Lineker]

Yeah, that's it for this episode of the Rest Is Football. Goodbye for me.