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Terry Butcher
Well, that's cool.
Gary Lineker
No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothing. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.
Terry Butcher
Wow. You need to relax.
Gary Lineker
I need a knock on wood. Do we have. What is this? Table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's close Enough car selling without a catch.
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Gary Lineker
Hello and welcome to the Rest Is Football with me, Gary Lineker. And today, may I say, a very special guest. Seen you for a few years, Former teammate with England. We played in two World Cups together. I think you played in three. He's had an extraordinary career and life. And I think the thing that makes me most happy about having Terry Butcher here is that finally I've got someone that's older than me. Terry, a warm welcome.
Terry Butcher
Thank you very much.
Gary Lineker
Lovely to see you.
Terry Butcher
And you as well.
Gary Lineker
You're looking well. How you getting on?
Terry Butcher
Yeah, we're doing okay. It's busy promoting the documentary that we've got out, but I enjoy it. It's not so different to football in the way the documentary is, because.
Gary Lineker
Let's tell everybody what it is exactly. It's a documentary of your life and
Terry Butcher
it's going out on the 7th of June, couple of days, 10 o' clock at night. And that's on ITV4. And then thereafter it will be distributed. I'll be on itvx.
Gary Lineker
I love the title of it. Tell us what the title is.
Terry Butcher
The title is Butcher. I took a lot of thinking that one. Not that Butcher. Invisible Wounds.
Gary Lineker
Ye.
Terry Butcher
Which is sort of would baffle people if they didn't know my career. But obviously the stories about my son and about what he went through as well. So you've got sort of my career to stop. You know, it's. Initially, I didn't know how Stuart Burley, he's George Burley's son, so he knew our family was. He grew up with our family in many, many respects, went on holidays together. So he knew Chris. He was my son. And it's very fitting, very nice from our point of view, that he's the director and he's, you know, the big. The big force behind it. So it goes out and the start of it is me with the bloodied head and sort of thing had to come in somewhere and then it's about him. It goes nice to him straight away. So it's not just one half and then one half.
Gary Lineker
For those that are not aware, you tragically lost your son. He was obviously a soldier in the. In the army. And it's a very, very moving and poignant documentary, I have to say, Terry, I shed a tear. I don't mind admitting that, watching it and knowing you as I know you, how difficult was it to decide actually to make it in the first place?
Terry Butcher
Well, I didn't want to do it Because I don't like seeing myself on tv. I don't like seeing what I've done through football. I don't like hearing myself. So why I'm not going to listen to this? No, I don't like it. I just get embarrassed, I think. I think. And particularly what you said and all the other guys in there, Alan Brazile's, Russell OSMONDS and Ali McCoy's Some Lovely People. What he told me, Stuart Burley, was that, you know, it's going to be different and there's a real story to tell there, not just on the football. It's not just a documentary about me playing football. I started and I finished sort of thing, that career, if anything, football's given me a platform where I can get to people or get to companies or whatever, quicker. Because of that, people know roughly about me, you know, what my career was and all that bloodied head business and all that sort of thing. But there is a big story to tell here, not just on me, but for my son and for veterans. And that's why I wanted to do it and I wanted to. We wanted to have a charity when he passed away in his honor, in honor, his memory, but it was just so complicated and so much to do that we decided we'll put it on the back burner and then see if we go back to that. But we never did. And then a company called Combat to Coffee came up, and that's an Ipswich run. It's run by Nigel Seaman, who's a veteran and he suffers from ptsd. Exactly what my son did. So I've got involved with them. I'm now the patron and I love it because it's given me a purpose, it's given me a challenge, because you know what football's like. There's a challenge every game you play and a challenge every club you're at, particularly with England as well. And I. I didn't have that. I was missing that. So that this has given me a real. It's like a cathartic sort of situation where I really enjoy doing it and it. It makes me want to do it. Because you raise awareness of veterans and their families and how they can help themselves. So you have me at the start, then you have Chris, and then you've got. So you've got my career, then you've got tragedy and then you've got hope at the end. And that's that message of hope. Yeah, that hope comes through.
Gary Lineker
It must have been incredibly difficult to live through.
Terry Butcher
I still find it difficult to talk about him. But this has been easier, a lot easier. And doing this documentary, I can talk about him for much, much longer period than I ever thought I would do. I couldn't say anything at the start. And it's when you speak to people, so strangers, they ask you, how many children have you got? You know, I would say three. Three boys. And they say, oh, well, where are they now? And then, well, two. One's here and one's there. The other one passed away. And then it's. It's a conversation stopper. Yeah. Because they don't know what to say. You know, I don't blame them because it's. It's what it is. But then they. I would like them to continue and just say, oh, what happened? And then how was he? What was he like as a person and all that sort of thing. Start talking about him. Because that really. That helps my grief, that helps me not to become used to it, but to actually then be at ease with it a lot more as well. Yeah. Because it's been. It's been tough and it's been difficult, but it is. Grief is. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
And they say it's good to talk. Yeah, Terry, it's good to get these things out, isn't it? I mean, otherwise, what do you do? You keep everything inside.
Terry Butcher
Well, we know what we're like. Not as much footballers, but as men, we bottle up and we just say, no, I'll cope, I can manage this, we'll handle it. But there are times when you can't, and there's been quite a few times, so things will trigger you and all that sort of thing, which I think is nice. You know, the songs that we had, he played at his wedding, and the phrases that he used, the mannerisms and things like this. I mean, every night I go up the stairs and I just say goodnight to him when I go into the bedroom. And that's. That's pretty emotional, but I just. I've become used to it now and it helps me, things like that.
Gary Lineker
Rita's in the documentary Wife.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
It was lovely to see her in there. Yeah. I haven't seen her for so many years. Did you both handle it in different ways?
Terry Butcher
No, it was still the same. We handled the grief initially because some
Gary Lineker
people like to talk about it, some people don't. I mean, I remember when George was ill, my son. Thankfully, he survived it when he was a baby. And Michelle's never been comfortable talking about that circumstance and how close he was to losing his life, but I needed to talk about it, so we were different. But you and Rita, pretty much similar.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, very similar. We didn't get help. There's no therapy, anything like that. There is therapy out there, but we didn't, we just felt, well, do we need it now? We'll plot on and carry on and bury it and. But you know, you get to a point when, when you actually feel that I can talk about it more and that just takes time. But to do this has been cathartic and it's been very helpful for us. And yeah, she didn't want to be on there. She's quite shy so she didn't want to know. A nightmare and what are people going to say and all that sort of thing. I just said, look, you know, just tell it from the heart because it is a story and it's a great story, A tragic one, but it's a great story. So do it. So he was very good.
Gary Lineker
It is, it's very moving. It really is.
Terry Butcher
And my sons came in as well. Yeah. And then we, we had grandchildren as well. That was really nice because it seemed
Gary Lineker
to me that the grandchild happened during the making of it. Your first grandchild, was it?
Terry Butcher
Little Austin?
Gary Lineker
Yeah. So you, the kind of news was broken to you during the documentary.
Terry Butcher
Oh yes, that's a great, that's a
Gary Lineker
great lovely little bit.
Terry Butcher
But it's. The whole film is not only about tears. No, no, no, of course there is.
Gary Lineker
He's Terry Butcher.
Terry Butcher
The audience I have at the premiere, they laugh when you, you mentioned your hat trick against, against Poland. Typical Gary. But it's brilliant. But there's a lot of laughs in there as well. Yeah. Obviously at the end there's lots of hope too. But I think it was Emily, the obviously my daughter in law. She was taking a picture of, of us to me and Rita and our son Edward. And then people will see it and it's, it's, it's. I think it's fully 14 seconds before I actually realize it did take a while. It did take a while.
Gary Lineker
But you are essentially pregnant.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, yeah. I mean this. Yeah, it does take a lot of time. You're right. It's getting worse, Gary.
Gary Lineker
Yeah, it does.
Terry Butcher
But you never headed the ball, did you really? So you're not going to be like, try to avoid.
Gary Lineker
Should we talk a bit about football?
Terry Butcher
Yeah, yeah.
Gary Lineker
You had an amazing career. I mean I played against you, I played with you.
Terry Butcher
I know.
Gary Lineker
I mean first time I remember playing against you at. When you were Ipswich and Ipswich you were bloody good side. Bobby Robson was the manager later managers for many years with England. Of course, it was quite interesting, the documentary. There are times where you didn't think you were going to make it.
Terry Butcher
Lots of times. In fact, I nearly gave it up early on in my career because I was too nice. I didn't kick people and it wasn't nasty.
Gary Lineker
Hang on a minute.
Terry Butcher
There was time.
Gary Lineker
There was a time you would.
Terry Butcher
You.
Gary Lineker
You're definitely a nice bloke, right? I know that, that's a fact. But on the field I was too nice.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. Were you? Well, I tried to kick you because you always ran away from me and scored goals. Were you left away from you with fear? Well, I don't know what it was, but you were too quick for me, so I had to, like, try and knock you down. But, yeah, I was. I was just a gentle giant on the pitch.
Gary Lineker
What changed you that?
Terry Butcher
Well, the coaches changed me. Bobby Ferguson particular, he was the number two to Bobby Robson. Yeah, he called me all names under the sun. He. It was a make or break situation. I was in two minds to give it up. So I spoke to my parents and they. My mum said, look, give it up and go to Trend Polytechnic where they were holding a place for me as a quantity surveyor. But I haven't a clue what a quantity surveyor does. My dad says, no, my dad says, carry on. He says, you can carry on and show them.
Gary Lineker
They survey the quantity of headers that you provide.
Terry Butcher
Quantity surveyors. I'm not talking about quantity surveyors. I don't have a clue what they do. But it was outside, apparently, and I thought, well, I'll take an outside job.
Gary Lineker
I think you made the right decision.
Terry Butcher
I think I did.
Gary Lineker
I think you probably did. And you made you. There's a lovely bit in the dock where. And again, I can relate to this because something similar with my dad. When you were thinking of going to studying quantitative surveying, that your dad had a word with the coach.
Terry Butcher
The coach, yeah, yeah.
Gary Lineker
And said, we're thinking of doing this. What do you think? He went, no, he's going to go
Terry Butcher
all the way to the top.
Gary Lineker
Yeah, that was a lovely moment and. But your dad didn't tell you that years later on. No, the same thing with my dad. It was actually on his deathbed. My dad liked him and we had the really meaningful conversations, probably for the first time in our life because, you know, again, at our generation, the older generation, they never share their emotions and stuff like this. And he. And he. And he said to me, he said, you know, he said, I always knew you were going to do It. Oh. I said, well, he could have told me. I know it's the same. And he was like, wow, that's the same.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. That's really nice. When my dad used to say that, you know, you were, you know, you thought you were great today. Something he'd tell me after he wouldn't go over the top, but he'd tell me and I would always say, no, no, I wasn't. I could have done more. You know, I've just had that reaction that I wanted to play the most perfect game of football, which you were never going to do, but I. I was. My standards and everything else that he taught me, you know, I had to get rid of them when I first came to the club and be a professional. Like, shake hands of a player and on the pitch when I kick them and all that sort of thing. No, no, no, you got to get out the window. But it was nice that he did go there because it reassured him, my father. But he never told me and he just let the natural course run and I was determined and we played a reserve game and Bobby Ferguson was the coach. I got taken off at halftime because I'd kicked. I came to a point when I thought, I've got to be aggressive. So I kicked every member of the opposition. I think the referee as well, he said, I've got to take you off because you're going to get sent off. And that was the best thing for me because then I realized I don't want to be taken off at half time anymore. I want to last the game. But if I can play a little bit like that, like I have done, and temper it a bit.
Gary Lineker
Let me get this straight. Right, so firstly, you're not aggressive enough.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Firstly, then you're too aggressive.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
And then you found the middle ground.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Okay.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Okay. Yeah, I think I've got it. We've got to talk about Bobby Robson, Right?
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
What team he got together there at Ipswich. I mean, you know, people talk about Ipswich Provincial club, Suffolk, you know, they're not a giant. It's like Leicester in many ways. We had our moment.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
And Ipswich's moment was really your time, wasn't it? I mean, won a European trophy. You had so many. You played alongside Russell Osman. I know Russell really well. He's in the documentary as well. At the back, you've. John, you have so many good players. You had the Dutch midfielders, Murin and Tyson.
Terry Butcher
Muran and Tyson. Yeah, yeah. But he was one that. He was there, obviously, a long while at Pullman. Road. And he built teams and then dismantled them, built another team then he's done that all over Europe or, you know, all his career. And I was at a good time then because just before me, four, five, six years before I joined the club, the club were in some cup semi finals and they're in Europe as well and all that sort of thing. So it was. Yeah, he set a really good standard. But you know, Bobby, he was like. He used to get your name wrong and I mean, people can't.
Gary Lineker
I mean, people think you're exaggerating with some of the stories. There's the lovely one in, in the documentary about you cutting his grass or.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. Walking his dog.
Gary Lineker
Yeah. You walked his dog for him.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, that's why I was in the England team.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
And then he walked his dog into my house. He was talking that much about football.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
When I had to say, bobby, you don't live here, he looked around and he says, no, I don't. I'll see you tomorrow. And then he walked out because he was crazy. But I mean, he's. Remember when he first came, he was, he was. Where you first came into the England squad, everybody was saying, is he always like this? Because they didn't, they, they weren't used to this, to how he behaved and what he did and his beliefs and everything else. But once you, once you got to know him, it was just, he was just incredible. He really was. He was. He. You know, you go through a brick wall for him. Yeah. He was loyal and honest as well.
Gary Lineker
And he was, he was super intelligent as well. And his interests went way beyond football. I think the reason he get into these pickles and names things because he had so much going on in his mind, probably he did my favorite, My favorite. I actually worked with him on television a few years after and he was as a one off and he came in, came in the studio and. And he's going, I've lost my phone. I've lost my phone. Okay. Okay, Bobby, we'll have a look where everyone's looking around the studio. This phone rings, right? So you can hear it going. And he goes, picks it out of his inside pocket and he goes, hello? He said, hang on, I'll call you back. I'm just looking for my ph. I mean, it was one of the things that I think made you, made us all love him so much and that thing that you wanted to play for him, but you don't want people also to think that he was a fool because. No, he's far from it. Was a really intelligent guy. He was brilliant tactically and great motivator as well, wasn't he?
Terry Butcher
Yeah. He dropped the odd word in here and there. And it was his actions that sort of made us love him. I think it was a story about him when he was in a TV studio covering. Covering another champ, European Championship at World Cup. And they. In the background was a sort of drop of. Of Paris, Eiffel Tower. And Bobby comes. I think that tournament was held in Holland or something like that. And he came into the studio and he looked at the Eiffel Tower. He says, oh, you get a great view from here. So. Yeah, but he was. He was. And he was. He was one that for me, it was like 14 continuous years of serving under him, the longest ever. And you got to know him. I knew this well. He used to give me Ralekins in real role against. Yeah. Some of which you see on the doorstep after a game. We won the game. And he'd give me a rollicking, so. But he would give me. He would give me that rollicking when he really meant to give somebody else a bit of a go. But I could always take it and I knew exactly what he was doing and that's why he had a go at me. So some of the players would say, well, hang on a minute. You know, do you not like that? It's not, you know, you shouldn't be getting that sort of criticism. And I just said, well, look, that's what. That's what he does. So I was fine. So we had a really good relationship. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Over many years. Some good players in that team.
Terry Butcher
Oh, yeah. Some right characters in the team. Yeah. Brilliant characters. Where, you know, you still see them. I still see them. I don't know. You still see them when we do functions with them and. Yeah. Q and A's and all that. And it's just lovely. It's really brilliant.
Gary Lineker
You still go and watch Ipswich.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, I watch Ipswich, yeah. But I actually go to the ground now. I just. I just watch it on the tv.
Gary Lineker
Just.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, I do. I mean, you know, obviously back in the Premier League, which is brilliant. Yeah. Kieran McKenna's done a fantastic job there. I mean, the back is. I mean, the whole thing, the whole club now is set up as a Premier League club. There's no doubt about it.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
And what he has to do now is obviously, Kieran McKenna, his key. Ipswich in the Premier League.
Gary Lineker
That just shows you.
Terry Butcher
His biggest task.
Gary Lineker
Just shows you that sometimes sticking with a coach, when you think he knows what he's doing is not a bad idea because obviously, I mean he took them up, didn't he? Successive promotions in the Premier League, incredibly difficult ask. Didn't quite happen. Go down. They didn't sack him and lo and behold they're doing okay again.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, I mean you can't see life at ibswich without Kieran McKenna because he's got them, you know, they know the system, they know what they're doing, they know their jobs. He makes them play a certain way which suits them and he's very clever, you know. Now he's, you know, this is probably his biggest task is to keep Ipswich up there in the Premier League. But I'm sure he'll do it and I'm sure it's about the key is getting players in that can play in the Premier League that they probably played there before with a point to prove hungry people just like Sunderland did. Sunderland did a fantastic job coming out and staying recruitment. So that's the objective. But it's just nice back in the Premier League, back at the top. Unfortunately not like Leicester.
Gary Lineker
Thanks Terry for mentioning that. We had our time though. We had our. Would I swap it?
Terry Butcher
No. What a time you had.
Gary Lineker
What a time in K win the league and then the FA Cup a few years later.
Terry Butcher
I'd love to see you run round to TV studios now in your underpants. I think that was great. That was one of the highlights.
Gary Lineker
Whatever turned you on, Terry?
Terry Butcher
Mind you, I've seen you in your underpants quite a few times.
Gary Lineker
Let's not go down.
Terry Butcher
Let's not go down there.
Gary Lineker
How difficult was it to leave Ipswich?
Terry Butcher
It was quite easy. Just got in the car and drove to the station and stayed. Very simple. And now I had to go. I didn't want to go. I just signed a four year deal a year before, so. And I was captain of the club and yeah, it's a club I supported but they ipsus had built a stand in 82, 83.
Gary Lineker
And you paid for it and.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, well all the others that left as well, you know, the Mariners, the Tysons, the Murins and all that, Alan, Brazil, they all left because of, because of that, the payments. And I was the last one. So the manager said, look, you've got to go. And I said, no, I don't want to go, Bobby, I want to stay. And he says, no, you got to go. And I says I don't want to go. He says, you are going because it's the last payment.
Gary Lineker
I think people find that probably difficult to believe nowadays. Because players power shifted to a degree.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
In those days, if the club wanted to sell you, they could make it very difficult for you if you didn't go.
Terry Butcher
Well, you knew. Yeah. You knew in those days.
Gary Lineker
Almost like pieces of meat.
Terry Butcher
Well, in those days you could get away with murder, really, if you're the club and manager. So, yeah, in the end I thought, well, I've been at the club 10 years as a pro, maybe it's time to go. But I didn't know who was going to come in for. I actually went to the World cup, sort of, you know, I could have had a sign on me, you know, available to buy. Please inquire here. So I think that would have been interesting. Yeah, but.
Gary Lineker
And then could have put it on the head.
Terry Butcher
On the headband. Yeah. And then we were sort of approached by Rangers and then soon S came in and, you know, soon as we played against. Soon as. He's tough. As tough as teak. Yes. And even tougher. I mean, and that's why players were going there was because he wanted to spark things off in Scotland and it was a bit of a gamble. Yes, but. But we did it, enjoyed it.
Gary Lineker
Before we move on to Rangers, what was the highlight of your time at Ipswich? I mean, there must have been quite
Terry Butcher
a few because, well, the UEFA cup was one. You know, you've got 62. Ipswich won the title, First Division, then 78 won the FA Cup. And, you know, to win a European trophy was a big good addition to those stars that you have on the shirt. So it's different. I mean, I tell people we didn't want to win the league, they want to win the FA cup because we'd already done that sort of thing. But that wasn't the case with the club to have done it.
Gary Lineker
Yeah, but we.
Terry Butcher
We were searching. We were searching for the treble.
Gary Lineker
Yeah. Who's the best player Ipswich played?
Terry Butcher
Kevin Beatty.
Gary Lineker
Beatty was great, wasn't he? Was ability to score goals.
Terry Butcher
To score goals, play anywhere, couldn't he? Yeah, well, he was out in Escape to Victory. The beat was out there. He's Michael Kane's.
Gary Lineker
Remember there one or two Ipswich players. Wasn't Osman was in there as well, was there?
Terry Butcher
Yeah, yeah. Johnny Walk, Kim o'. Callaghan. Yeah, he was there. I think Kevin Beatty's biggest claim in Escape to Victory was that behind the scenes he was arm wrestling Sylvester Stallone and he beat him. He beat with his left hand and his right.
Gary Lineker
He beat Rocky.
Terry Butcher
He beat Rocky.
Gary Lineker
Oh, my word.
Terry Butcher
Like that. Yeah. He's now heavyweight champion of the world.
Gary Lineker
But he could play football as well.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, he was strong. He was naturally strong. Yeah. And people say he was a bit like Duncan Edwards. This is going back a long time, but he just. A climb in the air. He's just unbelievable leap. He wasn't six foot four like me. He was probably about six one. But what, you know, the timing and everything else, he was incredible.
Gary Lineker
For our young listeners, Duncan Edwards was the. The great young Manchester United player that sadly lost his life on.
Terry Butcher
That's right, plane crash.
Gary Lineker
But Rangers, it's a big football club, isn't it? It's huge expectation.
Terry Butcher
No, it's massive. You don't realize what it's like. And I remember when. When Gaza was with the England squads. Gaza's like you're playing Mickey Mouse football. And I said, well, he ended up there himself. I said, don't. Don't knock it till you tried it. When he tried it, he says, you're exactly right. It's special. It's. It's. There's so much attention. It's a national game. The press contingent is huge as well. It's. And it's all over the newspapers, everywhere, radio and things like that. So you've got to. When you play for Rangers or Celtic, you've got to be at your best every game because the opposition don't want to get beat five or six nil. And they're going to try, like bears, to make sure that they don't lose and maybe even sneak a win. So, you know, you can beat Celtic on a. On a Boxing Day or New Year's Day, then the next day you're playing something like Hibs or Motherwell or something like that, and you could lose because you were so up for the Celtic game and then you couldn't get to that height again for the next game and therefore you got turned over. So there were pitfalls.
Gary Lineker
You loved it up there, didn't you? Didn't you stay up there for years and years and hotels on and off?
Terry Butcher
Yeah, yeah. I'm the only Englishman in the Scottish hall of Fame, so it's quite honest.
Gary Lineker
Are you the only Englishman?
Terry Butcher
I think so, yeah. The only Englishman, yeah. Wow. Which is unique.
Gary Lineker
How were they when it. How did they deal with it, the. The Scottish football fans? When. Because there were a lot of English players, weren't they?
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
At that point, Graham soon has brought quite a few in.
Terry Butcher
What.
Gary Lineker
Was there any kind of pushback at any stage from. From the fans going, hang on a minute. Because, you know, there is a bit of rivalry Between England, Scotland.
Terry Butcher
On the football side of things, there were knockbacks and they came from. Not Rangers, non Rangers supporters. Rangers fans loved it. I mean, there'd be lots of Crosses of St. George about the Rangers fans because Rangers generally don't go and watch a lot of Scotland games. So, you know, so they sort of cheer on the English boys when it comes to. Yeah, when it comes to playing Scotland. And I remember being in the hotels, I was owner of the hotel and I had to do the work, the evening shift on a Saturday night. And that Saturday was coincided with the England Scotland game in the Euros and the Gas goal. And I was on shift and then at night and I went in and I'm thinking, well, thank goodness England won. So I was serving people and I looked at some of the people coming and they had all knocks and bloody noses and chips on their eyes and that looked like a lot of people are coming to the, you know, for after a fight. And I said to the boy, to the guys, I said, well, did you not. Did you meet some English fans and all that sort of thing? Was there trouble? And they said, no, no, the trouble was from the Scotland fans because when they were Rangers fans, guys that lobbed it over Colin Hendry and scored, the Rangers fans went, oh, what a goal. Because he was their player. And of course the other Scotland fans that weren't Rangers fans started fighting with them.
Gary Lineker
I bet they did. Yeah.
Terry Butcher
It was like a war.
Gary Lineker
I'll bet you played with Gansa. Yeah, obviously with England and at Rangers. How was he at Rangers? Just the same as he is everywhere else.
Terry Butcher
Well, I didn't play with him at Rangers.
Gary Lineker
Oh, you didn't cross? He was after you?
Terry Butcher
Just after me. Just after me. But I would watch him a lot. When it came to the radio or TV or something like that, I'd do the Rangers games. And I saw him. Yeah, I interviewed him at Park Kidd after they'd been Celtic. And that's when he came out with that statement about, you know, it's like it's not Mickey Mouse football now. But he was lovely. I mean, the stories of up there, of legendary stories, and the Rangers fans absolutely adored it. And he was. He was crazy, but at the same time, what a player. He'd win a game on his own and he did that frequently.
Gary Lineker
We've all got one. What's your favorite Gaza Story?
Terry Butcher
The favorite Gaza Story is right when Walter Smith's the manager now and Gaz is there. And after training one day, Brian Loudrup. Great. Brian Loudrup goes in to see Walter Smith. And he says, we have a problem. So Wallace says, okay, fine, what is it? He says, paul Gascoigne. So he says. Waller says, oh, what's he done now? He says, well, we go do training, come back in, Gazza comes back early, gets his clothes up, rushes into the shower, has a shower, we take our time and chat and then we eventually go into the shower. So he says, well, what's the problem with that? He says, well, Gazza comes out, he says he gets dried, puts clothes on and goes home. So he's what he wants, you know. Well, that's normal. He says, no, but they're my cloth. I used to cut ties up and all that sort of thing. Oh, absolutely.
Gary Lineker
Let's take a break there and then we come back. We'll get a bit more Gaza at some point, a bit more Rangers and definitely England. This episode is brought to you by hotels.com booking your next hotel for a work trip or a weekend away to see your team play with Hotels.com each day brings you closer to rewards. Introducing the all new 10 for 100 from Hotel Hotels.com it's exactly what it sounds like. Stay 10 nights, get back 100 pounds in Hotels.com cash to use on your next getaway. It's a simple and flexible way to get more value from the trips you are already taking, whether it's a quick trip or something you've been planning for a while. 10 for 100 with Hotels.com rewards. It's all in the name members. 18 plus average cost per night in a booking must be £75 or more to count, excluding taxes, fees and Hotels.com cash. This episode is brought to you by Christopher Nolan's epic new film the Odyssey. The must see motion picture event of the year. It's the legendary story of Odysseus embarking on the 10 year journey home after the Trojan War. Think monsters, gods and immense battles. So when we're asked to pick a truly Odyssean player from our own generation, I started to think of the ones who really had to graft. The ones who showed real grit, navigating setbacks, pushing for those later breakthroughs, beating the odds to reach the top with maybe a few less mythical creatures. Our kickers off as my player is probably the oldest of the lot, a certain Peter Beardsley I've gone for. Yeah, I don't think people are aware of this, but he eventually had to go and play in Canada when he was like late teens.
Terry Butcher
Vancouver Whitecaps was it?
Gary Lineker
That's right, Vancouver Whitecaps and played over there in that era when American. The football side in America was. Was quite popular for a while. He was doing okay over there, playing really well I think. Then he got kind of like trial at Manchester United or something. Didn't quite. And then eventually he made his name.
Terry Butcher
Brilliant. I'm going for Stuart Pierce. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
From where he started. Electrician.
Terry Butcher
Non league football.
Gary Lineker
Wilson wasn't an electrician. Mark Hughes, was he?
Terry Butcher
Sparky. Sparky.
Gary Lineker
Yeah. There you go. There's another one.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. So then for him to do what he did in his career and the
Gary Lineker
way he got there, play for Eng
Terry Butcher
in World Cups and Euros and had the career that he had.
Gary Lineker
Proper warrior.
Terry Butcher
Did you have any skills before football? No, I was too busy working on my first touchmaker. I'll go. Mo Salah.
Gary Lineker
Mo Salah.
Terry Butcher
Salah.
Gary Lineker
He had a journey.
Terry Butcher
He had a journey. Well, you probably know a bit more about the beforehand but I did a
Gary Lineker
documentary with him once and I didn't realize that, you know, when he was.
Terry Butcher
He wanted to be as a footballer
Gary Lineker
and he used to. I think he could like travel like. Like four hours there and four hours there really Every day to train.
Terry Butcher
That's mad.
Gary Lineker
Incredible. Incredible drive, conviction. Yeah.
Terry Butcher
But also that comeback bounce back ability in corner, don't they. I was with Matt Fiorentina.
Gary Lineker
I know.
Terry Butcher
And he was a superstar then. I knew it. He went to Rome, then went to Liverpool, failed at Chelsea before. He went on loan to Fiorentina as well. But to become the superstar that he
Gary Lineker
is today, I'd possibly pick you as well.
Terry Butcher
Me?
Gary Lineker
Yeah. Because at one stage you were just Mo Salah's taxi. You got all serious. You're the exact opposite. You burst onto the scene and then kind of fade. I was good with that, Gus. Very good. Every now and again. There you have it. Our Odyssean players. Whether it's on the pitch or on the screen, that kind of resilience and perseverance is what separates the greats from the rest. And to truly experience such an ambitious journey, it demands the big screen. Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey is in cinemas from July 17th. Book your tickets from June 15th. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate and easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps Things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies, most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid market exchange rate like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise T's and C's apply. Welcome back to the Rest is football with certain Terry Butcher and me, Gary Lineker. Terry, what was your highlights at Rangers? I mean, you. You won a few trophies there, didn't you? Was it three titles, was it or.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, three titles in four years. I broke a few doors down, scored a few own goals. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Did you break doors down?
Terry Butcher
I did, yeah. Got charged as well by the police of the peace, but they dropped it eventually. I scored more goals past Chris woods than any other Scottish striker and I've got a criminal record as well. And I broke my leg. But apart from that. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Duncan Ferguson in disguise.
Terry Butcher
Oh, yeah, yeah. I had a great time.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
The highlight is, I think the first year when we won the title in 87, I went up in 86 to win a title I hadn't won a title before. And you know what it's like. It's just incredible.
Gary Lineker
Yeah, I do know what it's like not to win a title.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. But you sort of take sort of like a yoke on your shoulders, the pressure, and when you win the title, it's just lifted off. Happy as Larry. So to win the first title, that was the first time Rangers have won the title in nine years. So they've seen a lot of people winning it and now they were winning it and it was the English revolution, as you said. Yeah. And it was just a great time to be there, really was.
Gary Lineker
It was an excellent team at that point.
Terry Butcher
Oh, it's a good team. Yeah. Ray Wilkins was up there as well. Graham Roberts, Mark Walters, some really good players. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
I mean, you must follow, obviously, Scottish football because of your time there. I'd be interested to see what you made of the whole thing last week with Celtic sneaking the league over Hearts. I think it was a shame for Scottish football, wasn't it, that Harts didn't win it or. And that very dubious, fair decision.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. You can't get rid of Var now. It's there, unfortunately. It's got to improve. I would have loved to have actually fingertip the ball 20 yards into the stand.
Gary Lineker
Exactly.
Terry Butcher
I mean, the fingers, it must be so powerful, his fingers when he. The head defender when he did it.
Gary Lineker
I mean, anyone that's remotely followed football, watched football, would.
Terry Butcher
Would.
Gary Lineker
I find it extraordinary.
Terry Butcher
But anyway, yeah, but then back in, I think it was 86. Celtic won the title. They had to beat St. Mirren, I think it was, by about five goals to win it. And the hearts, actually, at that time, they. They should have won it, but they lost against Dundee, but. And then Saint Mirren sort of not caved in, but Celtic beat Saint Mirin, the required total and they won it. So they came with a really good late run to win it and they. They've obviously come this year with a really good late run to win it as well. So fair play to them. But the game was. Obviously was Celtic, Motherwell. And it was on live on the tv. And Rita, my wife, she says, let's put it on, see how they're doing. Do you not want to know? And I went, no, I don't want to know. I said, because I can't work out who I want to win, who I want to lose. And I did the best thing and not watch it.
Gary Lineker
Not watch it at all.
Terry Butcher
And of course, you tune in later on. Yeah. You knew what would happen. So, yeah, it is heartbreaking when you lose a title and it's, you know. But it's great to see three teams involved in the title race.
Gary Lineker
Much better.
Terry Butcher
That is so much better.
Gary Lineker
Good for Scottish football. Got a lovely segue here, because you mentioned 1986. We also mentioned how far you can flick a ball with your hand. Shall we talk about England World Cups? You know, we were part of that World cup, weren't we? And, you know, it was tough at this time. Do you remember Monterey, how hot it was?
Terry Butcher
Yeah, it was.
Gary Lineker
I mean. And again, they're playing. The teams are playing in Monterey this time around, so. And it was in the 40s, 42, 43 degrees centigrade. I remember. It was murder, wasn't it?
Terry Butcher
It was a. As well, I think. Yeah. Yeah. But you. You remember the. Because we had the whole hotel, didn't we? And the waiters and the staff. The staff were brilliant. Yeah, they looked after us really well. We didn't have a lot of drink there. But what we used to do after the games, remember, we used to go up to that monastery.
Gary Lineker
Oh, yes, we went up to the
Terry Butcher
monastery and had a barbecue. Yeah. So it was pretty grim the first game we played because we lost.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
And even more grim when we only drew the second game, and then it got better. But we had a great time there. Up there with drinking all the. I think the. The monks beers or something like that. We had a great time, we enjoyed it, but it was. It was. The start we had was awful, wasn't it?
Gary Lineker
Oh, well, it was tough when we played Portugal, didn't we, in the first game, and we got beaten and then. Then everything went wrong against Morocco, wasn't it so. Because Ray Wilkins got sent off for just kind of underarming the ball at the referee.
Terry Butcher
It was a disgrace.
Gary Lineker
I mean. And then Robbo did his shoulder and. But we battled on for a draw. Then we had to beat Poland.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Can't remember what happened in that game.
Terry Butcher
No, we fluked it. I think somehow we got through.
Gary Lineker
We sneaked through and then Paraguay and then we played, obviously, Argentina. I think that's quite possibly one of the most famous games of football ever played, if not the biggest game. I think maybe it was usurped by the World Cup Final because of the stories of Messi and Mbappe and Scornowick and all that, and in Qatar four years ago. But I think that's probably the most, let's say, infamous game ever played.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
And you. You had a really good view of Diego on both those goals. First one, I. I didn't see the humble right. I was.
Terry Butcher
I didn't see it.
Gary Lineker
You. You didn't see it?
Terry Butcher
I didn't see it. I'm 15 yards away. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
So I didn't see. I was on the halfway line, obviously.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
You didn't say it, really.
Terry Butcher
I didn't see it because I think Terry Fennec and Glenn Hoddle and Peter Shilton ran past me. Yeah. Touching their hands and claiming the handball. Yeah. And I thought, well, I better join in. And more than that, because I've only ever seen.
Gary Lineker
I. Well, we'd never really, really talk about. You don't talk about after game. Did you see it or did you? Not everyone was going, it was handball. So I've always seen the images of you touching your hand.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
So I presumed you'd seen it.
Terry Butcher
No, no, no. I just followed suit. So I think. I think the more that go around the referee and. And the more he might think about it. But he was adamant that it was a goal. The linesman was away.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
Running away. And it was a goal. And it was. It was a shot, wasn't it? I mean, like, it wasn't a great game. The game was poor the first time, wasn't it?
Gary Lineker
But conditions were tough. The pitch was terrible.
Terry Butcher
Remember how bad the pitch was? Shocking. It was. Absolutely.
Gary Lineker
Sure.
Terry Butcher
We'd been there a year before, hadn't we? Y. We went there and it was. It was. It was poor. Then you sort of thought, well, they're going to get it better, and they never did. Dressing rooms were better, but the pitch was a waffle. But no, there's no excuse because at the end of the day, he got the second goal, which I had a better view of twice. Thanks very much. Thanks for. I've had therapy. I've had therapy for that.
Gary Lineker
Yeah, no, of course you're not. You. You've often said you. Well, Peter shorten said as well. I think you were the two people that, like, could never forgive him.
Terry Butcher
No.
Gary Lineker
Diego still.
Terry Butcher
Not really, no. Well, he's gone now, but.
Gary Lineker
Well, he's gone. Yeah.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. No, it was one that. With my dad, especially being in military, in the Navy, he. He taught me standards and taught me sort of morals, and this was. This broke. That broke the code sort of thing, that you didn't do that. And if you did it, then you admitted to it. Yeah. So I got away with it sort of thing because they don't replay the game as. But he didn't do that either. And I'm just. That was so disappointing. It didn't spoil my memory of him being the best player I've ever played against, because he was. Without a shadow of a doubt. But it was. It was sort of tarnished it. And people say to me, well, in the dressing room afterwards, what was. What was the feeling? Well, I wasn't in the dressing room, I was in the drugs room. And then he came over and I just tapped my head or tapped my hand and just, you know, to say. As if to say which one. And he said it was his head.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
So he's a clever guy because at the end of the day, if he'd have said hand, I think I would have introduced him to my hand around his throat.
Gary Lineker
You do? Surprised?
Terry Butcher
I strangled him, I tell you.
Gary Lineker
I know. Yeah, I know. But the second goal, I mean, he was unstoppable, wasn't he, really?
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
I mean, because we had the plan, didn't we, that we were trying. Whenever he got the ball, everyone and whoever's closest would try. But rather like Messi, one on one, he was almost impossible to stop.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, he was. And he was. He could. Low center of gravity, big thighs, so we could move. And he was really, really the perfect sort of number 10, really. But when he, I think it was a foul. Was it a foul on Peter Beardsley or.
Gary Lineker
I think it was on.
Terry Butcher
Hoddle on, Glenn.
Gary Lineker
Hoddle on. Just before he gets the ball.
Terry Butcher
Just before he gets the ball. If Var was around. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
We might have won that game. One nil.
Terry Butcher
Well, that's about the only decision they can probably get correct anyway.
Gary Lineker
They got it wrong anyway.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. But. And then he came towards me and I saw Peter Reed on my right shoulder and I'm thinking, peter's there, so I'll block the left off and let him go to the right. Poor old Peter was chugging away.
Gary Lineker
It was hard conditions.
Terry Butcher
I think he ran on fumes. Yeah. So.
Gary Lineker
So.
Terry Butcher
So. And then he's gone past me and obviously Peter and now he's going at Terry Fennec and then Terry Fennec had already been booked, so he couldn't bring him down. And then I'm just getting back and he goes past Peter Shield and he. And now he's got the open goal and I think. And I can get this. And I'm inches away from just touching. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Well, a lot of people thought for a while that maybe it was you'd scored an own goal. I had people say to me, I think Terry Butcher scored that guy. I went, no, he didn't.
Terry Butcher
It was the greatest home goal I ever scored and greatest goal in football history. If I'd have scored, scored. No, I wish I had.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
You just see me in the tv, just banging machine pads, like, annoyed. I'm annoyed at myself. And I think if you look at the. At the goal as a defender, you'd be like, nah, I should have done much better than that. So there's two goals that he got that obviously decided the game that you're so disappointed with. Obviously the decision was wrong, but also is it's not stopping that brilliance because it was a brilliant goal and that's it.
Gary Lineker
I mean, you can look at yourself all you like, but he. He was like, they're so difficult. They're so incredibly skillful. Such a brilliant form.
Terry Butcher
He was a very good passer of the ball as well. Other players.
Gary Lineker
Yeah. Yeah.
Terry Butcher
So it wasn't just the. The individual skill. It was like a team.
Gary Lineker
It's mad, isn't it, that probably the. Certainly the best two players, I think, in my lifetime. Both Argentinian.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Both diminutive. Both left foot.
Terry Butcher
Both left footed. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Both do everything. It's incredible. Incredible, really. Which could do one or two of those as well. Hopefully at some point.
Terry Butcher
Really good.
Gary Lineker
Italia 90 was. Was special. Our second World Cup Both, obviously, with Bobby Robson. That's the one thing I look back, I think, I think we were. Don't know about whether you agree or not. Well, I think we were stronger in 90 than 86, I think.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, I think we were and I
Gary Lineker
think we were genuine, you know, in 86, I thought we did reasonably well to get where we did and, and we could, you know, we could have won that game, but we didn't. But I think 90. I. It's the one thing I look back on my career and just think, God, if only. If only one, that penalty shootout. Because then you. Then you within touching difference of footballing immortality.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. I had a question recently and someone said, you know, if you would change one thing in football, what would you do? And I'd say win that semi final
Gary Lineker
and win the penalty shootout.
Terry Butcher
Win the penalty shootout.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
That was, you know, you were off the field.
Gary Lineker
Would you have taken one? Would you have been up for taking one if you don't.
Terry Butcher
No, no, no, I wouldn't. If I had to, I would.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
But I was. I took one penalty in my life professionally, and I scored. So I've got a better record.
Gary Lineker
100 record.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
I love it. But I.
Terry Butcher
Bob, I was going to put it in the right hand corner because as you look at the goal, because I'm left footed. Yeah. And I saw the keeper move across to the, to his left and I'm thinking, oh, no. And I bumbled it into the corner of the other side. Worst penalty ever. But it went in.
Gary Lineker
Doesn't matter if they go in. That's all that counts.
Terry Butcher
That's right. So that counts.
Gary Lineker
Yeah. I think we got so close, didn't we? And you ended up being captain in that.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. Because Brian was injured, he went home early and Schultz didn't want to do that. He wanted to be just concentrating on his, on his game. So. Yeah. To lead the team out at a World cup semi final. There's only three people ever done that and I'm one of them.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
So I was more worried about the rest of you boys following me out because I thought someone, if it was Stuart Pierce or somebody would actually say, hold on, boys, let him walk out on his own. You know, that's the most embarrassing thing when you just walk out on your own. You look around, there's no teammates there. I thought they were going to do that.
Gary Lineker
Why the World cup semi final? Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think we. Later.
Terry Butcher
That's a stupid thing that goes through your mind. Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Well, I'm glad things go through your mind like that. Well, I'm gonna. Just before we finish, I'm gonna ask you before we go as well, about how do you think our chances are in the World cup coming up? But I just want you to reassure me that the story that I told about you when we played Yugoslavia, and we're in the tunnel, because, you know, your memory sometimes plays and you think, did that actually really happen when you were shaking that cage between the two teams, Yugoslavia on one side, England were on the other. I was at the back of the line, and you were going shaking this cage tiger. And I could see the fear in the eyes of the Yugoslavs. It was never a tough race.
Terry Butcher
Yeah, obviously. Yeah, it was.
Gary Lineker
We were 4 nil up in 20 minutes.
Terry Butcher
We were. But we were held there. We was there for about. About five to six minutes. And that's a long time when you're in a tunnel with the opposition because you want to. You want to get at them. Yeah. Sort of thing. So I had this thing about case Tigers. Anyway. I used to walk around the dressing room because you just sat there.
Gary Lineker
You do know where the three lines. Not Tigers.
Terry Butcher
You do. I know, but it's a story, so don't worry about it. But it's not correct. But you would just sit there and just contemplate and all that. You were so relaxed, laid back. But I was tense, nervous, but I wanted to get my adrenaline in at the right time anyway, so I was on about Cadence Tigers. And I'm the sort of anxious, but I'm. I'm active. Right. As you're sort of passive before games. But it just bought into it. Everybody expected you to do it and all that sort of thing, and it helped with the process. But no. Yeah, it was. It was. It was roughly right. I'm happy with that. That side of the story. But Tony Adams was in front of me, I think, and I started doing this and he did the same. And then a lot of the England players down there, and they were doing the same as well. I didn't know he wouldn't do that. I think you're asleep at the time at the back, but. But it's just one of those things that you look in their eyes and you. You say, they've gone here already before the game started, because that was a very big game for them. So it was great. Was it Player part? I don't know.
Gary Lineker
But look, 4 nil up in 20 minutes. I think. I think it might have done. We'll never know, obviously. It's.
Terry Butcher
Did you score in that game?
Gary Lineker
No. Oh, I would have mentioned it if I. I was. I was. I finished the game and I'm. That was disappointed. Of course it was, because Arguing before. No, not score.
Terry Butcher
I mean, it's dreadful.
Gary Lineker
You're most famous, a little bit like I am, for pointing at my head and. And saying worrying things about Paul Gascoigne. Have a word with him. I think we're both remembered for something to do with our heads more than perhaps what we did with the football. Sweden away.
Terry Butcher
Yeah.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
Nil. Nil.
Gary Lineker
Nil. Nil.
Terry Butcher
World cup qualifier.
Gary Lineker
And we needed a draw, didn't we, if I remember.
Terry Butcher
Well, we didn't want to lose. I think they went through as winners, didn't we? They have the group, so they were. Yeah, yeah. So we had one game to play after that, but it was important. And I was a captain. All white kit. And then I made the mistake in the first half, I think, and I've got a free header and I'm going to melt this and see if Gary can run and get it over the top. And then I. This little Swedish player, extreme, I think it was jumped up in front of me.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
And I headed the back of his head. He got stitches as well as me later on, but that was. I knew it was a bad one because my hand was covered in blood. You know, you put your hand over the cut.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
And I'd had a few cuts in my career, but this was really bad. I knew I wasn't in trouble, but I knew that I had to get treatment, which I did. And in the end, they bandaged it round as a stop gap and that was taken off at half time. But remember Doc Crane?
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
Bless him. He's passed away now. The doctor, he came in to stitch me and there's not much flesh around the wound in my head and the forehead. And he was sweating. Whether it was the whiskey that he had upstairs, I'm not too sure. Sweating. And he. If his hands were shaking as well because he knew that he had to get it done quick.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
And it was. It was probably about 2 inches, 3 inches. And he only got five stitches in. He had seven events.
Gary Lineker
Way more blood.
Terry Butcher
So I can still. It's still going to come out with the blood. So that's why we put a different shirt on and then went out. And that was the same as the first time.
Gary Lineker
And at the end of the game, all the photographers surrounded you. Yeah. In the docket's really good on that. And the images that one when you did the big eyes, such a. I mean, it's. It's like one of the most iconic photographic shots, I think, in football history.
Terry Butcher
I think people either put that picture on the dartboard or they put it in front of the fire to stop the kids going on. But I just. They saw them all there and I thought, well, I can get rid of him by one action and that's doing the eyes. Yeah. So they got. They got their snapped all around the world and then that was it. But I must have had a knock on the head because we got to the airport and I bought all the press a drink.
Gary Lineker
Think.
Terry Butcher
What about that? Well, it's expensive in Sweden. I don't know. My head. I was.
Gary Lineker
Must have concussed.
Terry Butcher
Yeah. But if you buy the press contingent now, you need a mortgage on it because there's so many people.
Gary Lineker
Yeah. And social media representatives. Absolutely. And everything else. And dare I say podcasts.
Terry Butcher
Yes.
Gary Lineker
As well. But yeah, it must be a feeling. It's. It is slightly odd, isn't it, that. I mean, I. It's the same with me with the gas going thing. It's the one question I get asked, ask more than anything else really, about my football career. Not the goals on the pitch.
Terry Butcher
That was another one. I thought you weren't going to say that, but that was another one. But all the goals and things you did, it was you best remembered for pointing to your head. And I'm best remembered for a bloodied head.
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
Terry Butcher
Crazy.
Gary Lineker
Yeah. But I think we, we can remind people ourselves of our occasional goodness on the pitch. England this summer, can they win it? Can we do it?
Terry Butcher
Yeah, yeah, we can do it. I think there's no real out and out favorites. Perhaps Spain and perhaps France might, you might say, never write off Argentina. Yeah. But I think we've got a good chance and because there's not much expectation, it sort of helps England in a way. Yeah. There's no, you know, until it. And you get the knockout stages and all that stuff.
Gary Lineker
There is less expectation, I think, than normal. Why do you think that is? Because we've got a lot of good players.
Terry Butcher
Players. Yeah. I just think because of our record. But I think it's about picking the right blend in the team. And I think the squad is going to play a big important part. Not just have, you know, 11, 12, 13 players that always play, you know, you've got to mix it up a little bit with the heat and with everything else. And it's going to be so important. The substitutions, the substitutes got to Come on and make an impact. And we have players that can do that. So I think we've got a very good squad. It's about who you leave out in some respects as well, but it. I am confident. I wasn't before when Thomas Tugel was appointed, but I am confident now he'll get it right.
Gary Lineker
Are you happy to have a German manager?
Terry Butcher
No, but I'm back. But I'll back him. I want England boys. I want England lads there. But I'll back him because at the end of the day, he's. He's in charge of a very good group of players.
Gary Lineker
Terry, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Before we finish, tell us what it's called. Butcher. Great Butcher.
Terry Butcher
Butcher. Invisible Wounds.
Gary Lineker
Butcher of Suffolk.
Terry Butcher
Watch it because it's. It's. It's a sad story in many respects. Probably particularly sad watching me play again, but obviously then you've got hope at the end and that's that hope, that message we want to get across. Good laughs. There's some nice laughs.
Gary Lineker
Yeah, no, they're all right. I. I watched it and I. I really enjoyed it and also very moved by it and I think it's a great bit of television, so I would also recommend everyone watch it.
Terry Butcher
Thank you very much. Love it.
Gary Lineker
See?
Terry Butcher
10 seconds.
Gary Lineker
Yeah, that's it for this episode of the Rest Is Football. Goodbye for me.
This special episode of "The Rest Is Football" features former England captain and legendary defender Terry Butcher. The conversation centers around the new documentary "Butcher: Invisible Wounds," which explores Terry's football career, his family life, the tragic loss of his son and the journey through grief and healing that followed. The discussion widens to reminiscences of England’s World Cup campaigns, nostalgic team memories, football culture then and now, and playful banter typical of the show.
Timestamps: 03:09–11:10
Timestamps: 07:13–10:06
Timestamps: 11:19–19:32
Timestamps: 21:15–22:51
Timestamps: 22:51–29:05
Timestamps: 23:27–24:27
Timestamps: 27:26–29:05
Timestamps: 30:54–32:23
Timestamps: 34:22–37:10
Timestamps: 37:10–46:33
Timestamps: 48:20–51:02
Timestamps: 51:14–52:22
For listeners who missed the episode, this summary provides both the emotional core and the football banter that make "The Rest Is Football" essential listening—especially this moving and memorable chat with Terry Butcher.