The Rest Is History – Episode 156: When Did the Roman Empire Fall?

Podcast: The Rest Is History
Hosts: Tom Holland & Dominic Sandbrook
Date: February 28, 2022
Episode #: 156

Overview

In this episode, Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook delve into one of history’s most debated and evocative questions: When did the Roman Empire actually fall? Far from accepting the conventional 476 AD date at face value, the hosts explore why that answer is incomplete, examine alternative milestones, and analyze how Rome’s own evolving definitions of "empire" and "Roman-ness" muddy the historical waters. Drawing on gripping anecdotes, literary references, and their trademark conversational style, Tom and Dominic unravel the Roman Empire’s drawn-out dissolution—and explore why the question "When did Rome fall?" resists an easy answer.

Key Discussion Points

1. Edward Gibbon and the Long Decline ([00:50])

• The episode opens with a reflection on Edward Gibbon’s monumental "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," which spanned centuries of history and offered no single date for Rome’s fall.
• Dominic summarizes:

  "If I look it up on Wikipedia, Tom, or in Google, it will give me the date 476. And I think this whole podcast is about when Rome fell. And we wouldn't be doing this podcast if 476 was the easy answer, would we?" (02:35)

• Tom notes the complexity:

  "Is there a single date where you can say the Roman Empire fell? ... The story is not so simple." (03:13)

2. The Start—and Nature—of Empire ([04:40])

• Discussion of when the Roman Empire "began":
  • Rome as a militaristic power since its legendary origins, becoming an empire (imperium) most tangibly with Augustus in the first century BC.
  • Augustus’s rule is seen both as stabilizing and, in some eyes, as the end of the republican freedom that made Rome distinct.
• Notable quote:

  "So, what you could say is that Rome ends when the Roman people become slaves... when the res publica–affairs of the public–are subordinated to the rule of one man." (06:45)

3. Eternal Rome—Egos and Ideas ([09:20])

• Tom discusses how Romans gradually adopted the idea that Rome was ‘eternal’—especially after its millennium in 248 AD—yet for most of Roman history, anxiety about empire collapse was common.
• Example: Carthage's destruction haunted Romans’ vision of their own fate.
• Notable quote:

  “Scipio Aemilianus...watching [Carthage’s destruction]...says, 'I dread that the fate that we are now visiting on Carthage will be visited on Rome as well.'” (12:10)

4. The Crisis of the Third Century ([16:45])

• The "crisis of the third century" saw the breakdown of old dynasties, a rapid succession of military emperors (often Balkan-born), and fracture points (physical and cultural) appearing throughout the vast empire.
• Tom:

  "The empire is transformed pretty radically in the third century and has to be because otherwise it would disintegrate." (16:46)

• The foundation of Constantinople as the "New Rome" in 330 AD is identified as a key but not terminal moment.

5. Christianity’s Rise and Cultural Revolution ([21:39])

• The Edict of Thessalonica in 380 AD made Christianity the empire’s official faith—an epochal change, but less abrupt to contemporaries than to hindsight.
• Tom offers the "frog in a saucepan" analogy, noting:

  “Christianity is properly transformative. However...I don’t think that is how it seems to most Romans.” (22:22)

• Christianity gradually replaced the old gods as a unifying ideology, mirroring the transition from local gods to the singular emperor.

6. Final Division: The Death of Theodosius ([25:11])

• Theodosius dies in 395, splitting the empire between his sons—Arcadius (East) and Honorius (West).
• From then, Rome is never ruled by one man again.
• The East is described as the richer, more cosmopolitan half.

7. The Sack of Rome (410) & The Western Unraveling ([32:37])

• The catastrophic sack of Rome by Alaric’s Goths in 410, the first by foreign enemies since 390 BC, shakes the psyche of the Roman world.
• Tom:

  "It’s the measure of how prosperous and unaware ... Roman Italy is, that people just ... don’t cross [their] mind that that might happen." (35:25)

• The event has unique religious and philosophical repercussions—Jerome’s heartbreak, Augustine’s formulation separating the Church’s mission from that of the state.
• Augustine’s argument:

  "Rome is not particularly significant...all of humanity is fallen...what matters is the Church." (38:00)

8. The End of Centralized Power ([39:45])

• The Western Empire’s capacity to maintain its monopoly on force fails. Local commanders, often now "barbarians," gain autonomy and legitimacy, carving out local power bases.
• “Once that starts to slip, the process of implosion [begins].” (40:10)
• The deposition of Romulus Augustulus in 476 AD by Odoacer is detailed ([42:21]), but Tom notes:

  “This is why saying that 476 is the date of the fall of the Roman Empire is wrong, because Julius Nepos is still very much on the scene ... and he lasts until 480 when he gets murdered.” (45:06)

9. What Actually Changed (Or Didn’t) After 476 ([46:18])

• Odoacer continues many Roman institutions, recognizes imperial authority in Constantinople, and keeps the Senate and consuls.
• “If I pitched up in Ravenna in 490...has the Roman Empire fallen? ... I think they’d have said no.” (47:35)
• Roman identity, practices, and ‘Roman-ness’ outlive the emperors themselves.

10. Justinian & The Real End in the West ([49:45])

• By the early 6th century, the East (Byzantine Empire) recognizes the West is ‘lost’ and, under Justinian, attempts to reconquer it.
• Ironically, these campaigns further devastate Italy and the city of Rome itself.
• “If you want a date for when the Roman Empire in the west really finishes, I think it’s [the aftermath of Justinian’s reconquests]. ... No more Senate, no more chariot races ... that’s when it ends.” (51:23)

11. The "Byzantine" Romans: The Empire Endures in the East ([51:59]–[53:23])

• The episode closes with a look at how, for those in Constantinople, the Roman Empire absolutely continued—"Byzantium" is a later label.
• Tom:

  “We call this ... a Byzantine Emperor. But he is absolutely a Roman emperor.” (52:22)

• The cultural, political, and emotional afterlife of Rome persists for centuries. Teasing the next episode, Tom describes this as “Undead Rome. Zombie Romans.” (53:11)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the symbolism of 476 AD:

  "Romulus was the first king of Rome, Augustus the first emperor ... it seems a kind of perfect drawing of the line under the great structure." (03:27) — Tom

• On Rome’s changing self-image:

  "Rome doesn't mean freedom from slavery so much as it means order, structure, continuity ... these kinds of things that are commonly attributed by empires to themselves." (10:00) — Dominic

• On the impact of the third-century crisis:

  "Basically...it is hard to join lands gathered around the Mediterranean. And essentially whenever you look at the civil wars that periodically break out...what you see are the same fracture points." (16:46) — Tom

• On Christianity as a cultural revolution:

  "Christianity is properly transformative. However...I, I don't think that that is how it seems to most Romans. For the same reason that...a frog in a slowly heating saucepan doesn't realize that he's being cooked." (22:22) — Tom

• The “vampiric” afterlife of Rome:

  "Rome does die, but there are attempts to bring it back to life, so it kind of takes on a vampiric form. It's Undead Rome." (53:11) — Tom

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Gibbon & "decline and fall" question: 00:50–04:40
• Defining the Empire—from Augustus to the Republic’s demise: 04:40–10:39
• Rome’s "eternity" and anxieties about collapse: 10:39–16:46
• Third-century crisis and transitions: 16:46–21:39
• Christianity and the Edict of Thessalonica: 21:39–25:11
• Permanent East/West division after Theodosius: 25:11–27:09
• Sack of Rome (410) and wider implications: 32:37–39:45
• The unraveling of Western centralized power: 39:45–46:18
• 476 and Romulus Augustulus: 42:21–45:35
• Persistence of Roman culture, institutions post-476: 46:18–49:45
• Justinian’s reconquest and the final breakup: 49:45–52:07
• The Eastern Empire’s “Roman” identity: 51:59–end

Episode Tone

The conversation is scholarly but animated with dry wit and accessible metaphors (e.g., “frog in a slowly heating saucepan,” “zombie Romans”). Tom provides sweeping historical analysis while Dominic keeps the discussion grounded and relatable, often interjecting with contemporary comparisons (“statues of Churchill being toppled,” “Richard Cromwell of Romani”).

Summary Table: Key "Fall" Dates and Their Problems

| Date | Event/Change | Why It's Not Definitive | |------------|------------------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------| | 330 | Foundation of Constantinople as a capital | Evolution, not end; Rome still primary | | 380 | Christianity becomes state religion | Gradual, not instantly transformative | | 395 | Death of Theodosius; permanent E/W division | Not a total split; similar past precedents| | 410 | Sack of Rome by Alaric | Shock, but Roman institutions persist | | 476 | Deposition of Romulus Augustulus | Julius Nepos remains; E. Empire endures | | 480 | Murder of Julius Nepos | Rome as idea & institutions linger | | 6th c. | Justinian’s campaigns, collapse in Italy | Infrastructure & society finally collapse| | 1453 | Fall of Constantinople | "Byzantine" Romans see themselves as Rome|

Final Thoughts

The fall of the Roman Empire defies any simplistic date. Instead, it was a drawn-out process, with both catastrophic shocks and slow, unnoticed shifts. The idea—and title—of "Rome" outlived the western emperors by centuries, haunting European politics as a symbol to be imitated, revived, or lamented. As Tom memorably closes, the legacy of Rome is “undead”—zombie Romans, living on in imagination and ambition.

This summary covers the core dialogue and analyses of the episode, omitting advertisements and framing segments to focus on the historical argument and narrative flow.