580. The Irish Civil War: The Assassination of Sir Henry Wilson (Part 1)

Summary

The Irish Civil War: The Assassination of Sir Henry Wilson (Part 1)
Episode 580, The Rest Is History
Released on July 6, 2025

---

Introduction

In Episode 580 of The Rest Is History, hosts Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook delve into one of the pivotal events that ignited the Irish Civil War: the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson. Joined by historian Ronan McGreevey, the episode unpacks the intricate web of political tensions, personal vendettas, and strategic maneuvers that culminated in this dramatic turning point in Irish history.

Background on Sir Henry Wilson

Sir Henry Wilson was a towering figure in British military history. Born in Dublin in 1864, Wilson rose through the ranks to become the Chief of the Imperial General Staff. He played a crucial role in shaping British military strategy during the First World War, including the formulation of the joint strategy that led to the swift conclusion of the war in 1918. Reaching the rank of Field Marshal at a young age, Wilson was both respected for his military acumen and noted for his stern demeanor.

Notable Quote:
Dominic Sandbrook [07:11]: "He was the Chief of the Imperial General Staff and one of the people who put together the joint strategy that brought the war to an end in 100 days."

The Assassination of Sir Henry Wilson

On the fateful day of June 22, 1922, Sir Henry Wilson attended a war memorial ceremony at Liverpool Street Station in London. After the event, as Wilson returned to his residence at 36 Eaton Place in Belgravia, he was ambushed and shot six times by two veterans of his own army, Reggie Dunn and Joe O'Sullivan. This assassination sent shockwaves through both British and Irish political spheres, marking a significant escalation in the already volatile post-war environment.

Notable Quote:
Ronan McGreevey [16:12]: "They shoot him six times on the doorstep and then these two men run off."

Identity of the Perpetrators

Reggie Dunn and Joe O'Sullivan, the assassins, were not mere opportunists but deeply entrenched in the Irish nationalist movement. Both men were veterans of the British Army who, after experiencing the horrors of war, became disillusioned and turned to the Irish Republican Army (IRA). Their motivations were rooted in a fervent desire to see Ireland remain unified with Great Britain and a vehement opposition to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, which they perceived as a betrayal of Irish republican ideals.

Notable Quote:
Ronan McGreevey [19:50]: "It's about the ideal of Ireland represented by the Gaelic Revival."

Political Climate Leading to the Civil War

The assassination occurred against the backdrop of intense political strife following the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty in December 1921. The treaty, which ended the War of Independence, created the Irish Free State and partitioned Ireland, establishing Northern Ireland as a separate entity. While the treaty was widely supported in Britain, it was deeply divisive in Ireland, leading to a split within the nationalist movement between pro-treaty forces, led by Michael Collins, and anti-treaty factions who sought a fully independent Irish Republic without any allegiance to the British Crown.

Notable Quote:
Expert Guest [12:15]: "David Lloyd George sees this problem from the middle of 1920, that there’s going to have to be a political solution here."

Michael Collins' Role and Possible Involvement

A contentious theory discussed in the episode suggests that Michael Collins, a key architect of the treaty and leader of the pro-treaty forces, may have orchestrated Wilson's assassination to eliminate a vocal opponent of the treaty and to consolidate support for the pro-treaty side. This theory is supported by evidence presented in Ronan McGreevey's book, which posits that Collins saw Wilson's assassination as a necessary move to prevent further fragmentation of the newly established Irish state.

Notable Quote:
Expert Guest [39:18]: "Sam Maguire has sworn Reggie Dunn and Joel Sullivan into the IRB. And the head of the IRB, the one man who could sanction this attack to kill Henry Wilson is the president of the IRB, and that man is Michael Collins."

Aftermath of the Assassination

The murder of Sir Henry Wilson had immediate and far-reaching consequences. In Britain, the assassination was met with horror and a demand for swift justice, while the British government used the event to justify military action in Ireland. In Ireland, the assassination intensified existing divisions and provided a catalyst for the outbreak of the Civil War. The anti-treaty forces, already embittered by the treaty's terms, saw Wilson's death as a martyrdom that galvanized their cause against the pro-treaty government.

The Beginning of the Irish Civil War

Wilson's assassination directly influenced the escalating tensions that led to the Civil War. Faced with internal strife and external pressure, the pro-treaty government, under Michael Collins, issued an ultimatum demanding the removal of anti-treaty forces from key positions, notably the Four Courts in Dublin. When negotiations failed, the pro-treaty side initiated military action, marking the official start of the Civil War. This conflict would devastate Ireland, pitting neighbor against neighbor in a bitter struggle over the nation's future direction.

Notable Quote:
Dominic Sandbrook [44:17]: "Michael Collins, who according to your theory is actually the person behind the murder of Henry Wilson, to go in and attack these people who the British government are blaming for that assassination."

Conclusion

The assassination of Sir Henry Wilson was not an isolated act of violence but a pivotal event that encapsulated the deep-seated divisions within Irish society and the broader geopolitical tensions of the time. By removing a prominent pro-treaty figure, the path was cleared for the eruption of the Irish Civil War, a conflict that would shape the future of Ireland for decades to come. Episode 580 of The Rest Is History offers a comprehensive exploration of these events, shedding light on the complex interplay of personal motives and political imperatives that drove one of Ireland's most tumultuous periods.

---

Notable Moments Highlighted:

• [07:11] Discussion of Wilson's role in ending WWI.
• [16:12] Detailed account of Wilson's assassination.
• [19:50] Exploration of the assassins' motivations.
• [39:18] Theory linking Michael Collins to the assassination.
• [44:17] Initiation of military action leading to the Civil War.

---

For those eager to delve deeper into the unraveling of the Irish Civil War and the fate of Michael Collins, stay tuned for the next episode of The Rest Is History.

Transcript

[Tom Holland]

Thank you for listening to the Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to thereestishory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

This episode is brought to you by US Bank. They don't just cheer you on, they help every move count with the US Bank's smartly checking and savings account to help you track your spending and grow your savings, your finances can and go further because when you have the right partner on your side, there's no limit to what you can achieve. That's the power of us. Visit usbank.com today to learn more. Member FDIC Copyright 2025 U.S. bank this.

[Carvana Ad]

Podcast is brought to you by Carvana Buying a car shouldn't eat up your week. That's why Carvana made it convenient. Car buying that fits around your life, not the other way around. You can get pre qualified for an auto loan in just a couple of minutes and browse thousands of quality car options, all within your terms, all online, all on your schedule. Turn car buying into a few clicks and not a full week's endeavor. Finance and buy your car at your convenience on Carvana Financing, subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Got a car to sell, but no time to waste. Hop onto Carvana.com to get a real offer for your car in seconds. All you have to do is enter your license plate, answer a few quick questions, and if you accept the offer, Carvana will pay you as soon as you hand the keys over. They even offer same day pickup in many cities. Save your time, score some cash and sell your car. The convenient way to Carvana. Pickup times vary. Fees may apply.

[Editorial Voice]

Many, as are the great public servants of this nation who have been buried in St Paul's Cathedral, illustrious as are the soldiers whose remains lie there. Today's funeral of Sir Henry Wilson will evoke emotions far stronger and more burning than those which are customary at the graveside. Even of the most eminent and venerated. The thought uppermost in men's minds will be not the distinction of his military services, but the foul crime, the revolting mischance which has cut off so noble a character and so fine an intelligence while they were still at the height of their powers, the assassination has horrified the whole civilized world. Whatever measures the government may see fit to take, the responsibility for those measures must rest solely with the Irish nation. For months past, that unhappy island has lain under the Curse of Cain. Morally, she is an outlaw and there can be no hope for her regeneration unless she can brace herself to cast off the infection which at present threatens to drag her down into complete social anarchy. No amount of goodwill, good faith and good intentions on the part of Great Britain can be of any avail to her, as long as murder is her ultimate political argument. So, Dominic, that was the Times on.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

26 June 1922 with a very punchy editorial on the day of the funeral of Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson. And I guess you would describe that as perhaps pungent, but the circumstances are extraordinary. So who is Sir Henry Wilson? Well, he had been Chief of Staff of the British expeditionary force in 1914. He'd been the chief Military Advisor to David Lloyd George in the First World War. He had been British Military Representative at the Versailles Conference. He has just stepped down as Chief of the Imperial General Staff. He has been the MP for Northdown in Northern Ireland since February 1922. He is reputedly the ugliest man in the British army and he has just been shot down in cold blood outside his own front door in Eaton Place Belgravia, in the heart of the West End of London. But Dominic, adding to the drama of this assassination is the identity of his murderers, of which there are two.

[Ronan McGreevey]

You're not wrong, Tom. So, first of all, that editorial. I would have loved to have written an editorial like that. Very. That is pungent stuff. Anyway, he has been killed in broad daylight, in cold blood, in the centre of London by two veterans of his own army who have since joined the Irish Republican Army. And this just months after the Anglo Irish Treaty that had supposedly ended the conflict in Ireland. So it's not just one of the most shocking assassinations in British history. Beyond that, it is the trigger for a new and deadlier conflict on the island of Ireland. The Irish Civil War. Which is an incredible melodramatic story.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, and it's described by Ronan McGreevy in his fantastic book on this great hatred, the assassination of Field Marshals Henry Wilson MP as Ireland's Sarajevo. So that's why it is more than worthy focusing in on it.

[Expert Guest]

Agreed.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

An incredible story, full of melodramatic details and brilliantly handled by Ronan in his. Quite right, wonderfully gripping book.

[Ronan McGreevey]

I've got good news for you, Tom.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

What?

[Ronan McGreevey]

So we are in Dublin. We're in the Four Courts, which plays such a massive part in the outbreak of the Irish Civil War. And the man sitting next to us is none other than Ronan McGreevey himself.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Oh, my God. So that's who he is.

[Expert Guest]

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Oh, Ronan, it's brilliant to have you. So we're going to explore Sam Ray Wilson, who you've written about so fantastically, the murder who killed him, why you regard this as Ireland, Sarajevo, and why it is the trigger for the Civil War. So why don't we kick off with Sir Henry Wilson? So tell us a bit about him. Who is he?

[Expert Guest]

Well, Dominic, Henry Wilson was an Irishman. That's really important point to state. He was born in Dublin, 1864, but brought up in. In the Irish Midlands, in Curry Grena, County Longford. He was an Irish Unionist at a time when that wasn't regarded as a contradiction in terms. And his family had come over during the plantations of the 17th century. One of his ancestors was with King William at the Battle of the Boyne. The family would have spent most of their time in Ireland, in Ulster, but his grandfather bought a number of farms in Ireland, including Curry Grain and County Longford. And that's where Henry Wilson grew up, in the South. Right.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And he's had this incredibly distinguished military career, hasn't he? I mean, lots of people would say he's one of the two or three men who won the war.

[Expert Guest]

Yes. For the Allies.

[Ronan McGreevey]

You think that's.

[Expert Guest]

Yes. Well, he was the Chief of the Imperial General Staff and he was one of the people who put together the joint strategy that brought the war to an end in 100 days in the autumn of 1918, when a lot of people thought it would drag on at least until 1919.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So in June 1919, he's appointed Field Marshal and he's the youngest to hold that rank in the British army since.

[Expert Guest]

Another Irishman, the Duke of Wellington.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And so he can absolutely be situated in that long tradition of Anglo Irish military men who serve Britain and the Empire more generally. And there's so much about his career that makes him seem kind of almost archetypal. So a bit like. Actually, a bit like Custer, but also a bit like Churchill. He's not a tremendous student, but he kind of graduates and then he goes off to Burma and he gets slashed across the face by a dacoit, doesn't he? The Burmese bandit.

[Expert Guest]

I'm glad you can pronounce that word better than me.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He fights in the Boer War and he. Before entering the First World War, in other words, he has seen the expanse of the British Empire and served it.

[Expert Guest]

That's right. By 1910, he's the director of Military Operations and he is looking at preparing the British army for possible war on the continent of Europe, which most people in Britain hope will never come. Wilson is at that stage of his life. He's convinced there's going to be a European war. It's not a popular viewpoint to have in the uk and he's preparing what. What will become the British expeditionary force in August 1914 for deployment beside the French army in the event of a German invasion. And this is exactly what happens.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And also, we're making him perhaps sound a rather uptight, humorless man. He's not at all. He's actually very funny.

[Expert Guest]

He's uproariously funny. And there's a painting of Donne during the Paris peace talks. And he said, you know what? Either end up in Madame Two Swords or in jail. You know, he looked like, as he said himself, he looked like a blackguard. He was quite a vivacious character.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

On the topic of him being the ugliest man in the army, you have this brilliant detail that that is what is addressed to him on a letter that was sent to him in 1891. And it reaches him.

[Expert Guest]

Yes.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Which he put him.

[Editorial Voice]

Very funny.

[Expert Guest]

Yes.

[Ronan McGreevey]

So let's move through the 1910s, because we want to get him involved in Ireland.

[Expert Guest]

Yeah.

[Ronan McGreevey]

So his Irishness is really important to him.

[Expert Guest]

Yes, it is, but it's a very.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Particular kind of Irishness. He feels passionately attached to the Union of Ireland and Great Britain. And obviously by the 1910s, as we've discussed in our previous episodes, it is an incendiary political issue. And his on this, certainly in public, could barely be more extreme. Is that fair?

[Expert Guest]

The Home Rule Bill is due to become a law in 1914, and you have this very serious incident called the Curragh Mutiny, or Curragh Incident. It's not an actual mutiny, but it's a putative mutiny in which Anglo Irish officers like themselves say they will not obey lawful commands of the government if Home Rule is imposed on Ulster. And this is a very serious development which threatens not only civil war in Ireland, but possibly in Britain too, if the majority of the British army does not implement the government's stance on Ulster. But Wilson, even though he's supposed to be as a soldier, he's supposed to do the government's bidding. He's actually conspiring against the government in all of this. And he earns the undying enmity of the British Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith, and it really retards his career until the very end of the war.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And then when we get to the end of the War. So once he's stopped being involved with the war, when the war is won, obviously, as we've discussed in our last few episodes with Paul Rouse, Ireland looms very large in the political consciousness because, of course, the War of Independence has broken out. And through this time, his position, which you describe so well in your book, his position is consistently that Britain should go harder, send in more troops, that they're facing an organized murder gang who are possibly part of a Bolshevik conspiracy, and that basically we're being far too delivered and we should just crack down much harder. And he says this publicly.

[Expert Guest]

He does, yeah. And when the British government is confronted with the IRA in 1919 and 1920, they regard it as a security problem, and they don't deign to call it a war. They send in the Black and Tans and the auxiliaries to aid the Royal Irish Constabulary to put down this rebellion by the ira. But Wilson, as the head of the British army, once wants this to be declared a military operation. He wants to see hundreds of thousands of British soldiers in Ireland routing the ira. And he says himself, if there are men to be murdered, we ought to be doing the murdering. So he's absolutely adamant that this is a military problem that needs to be resolved. Whereas it's obvious from a very early stage to the British government, particularly to David Lloyd George, that this is a political problem, that even if the British were to win a putative victory, it would be a Pyrrhic victory because the Irish people don't want them anymore. The British in Ireland, most of Ireland anyway, they don't want them anymore. And David Lloyd George sees this problem from the middle of 1920, that there's going to have to be a political solution here, and Wilson doesn't want that.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And does the potential of Wilson to create mischief, is this enhanced when he steps down from the military and becomes an MP for the strongly Unionist constituency in Northern Ireland of North Down.

[Expert Guest]

Exactly. So he's made a field Marshal. In July 1919, he is showered with praise left, right and center. He's part of the delegation of the Paris Peace Talks. He's at the height of his powers and of his. Of the regard for him in Britain. But he's already falling out with the British government because of Ireland. He doesn't want anything to do. He doesn't believe that there should be any negotiations at one stage. And he said, with Lloyd George. Lloyd George says, your fellow Irishman, who I'm negotiating with, are next door. And he says, I don't talk to murder gangs to which Lloyd George responds, nonsense, we have to do these things. So that's his attitude. So his four year stint as this, as the Chief of the Imperial General Staff comes to an end in February 1922. There's no chance of it being renewed. He's not even talking to the Cabinet at this stage. And within three or four days there's a by election and he is elected unopposed as an Ulster Unionist mp. So he goes straight from being the head of the British army to being an mp and he's already somebody who is a senior figure in British history. This is two months after the Anglo Irish Treaty is signed. As far as the British government, most of the British politics are concerned Ireland is done with now. But Wilson doesn't see it that way and he becomes a sort of focal point for the, as you know, the die hards in the Conservative Party who don't want to accept the settlement.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And so what impact does this have on the Irish nationalists, revolutionaries?

[Expert Guest]

Well, at this stage, whereas the treaty is very popular in Britain and passes very quickly through the House of Commons.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So that's how he's viewed in Britain. But what about in Ireland? What's his reputation there?

[Expert Guest]

So his reputation in Ireland after he steps down as Chief of the Imperial General Staff is that he's a sort of paragon of British imperialism who's going around making incendiary speeches in Britain saying that the Irish can't rule themselves and that there is anarchy in Ireland and that the British should go back in and solve the problem once and for all. And of course, this makes him an enemy both of the Provisional Irish Government that's established under the treaty, but also the British Government. They don't want to hear this. And so he's already a marked man in Irish national circles at that stage.

[Ronan McGreevey]

All right, so let's move forward to the crucial day. He's become the MP for North Down. He's been the MP for only a few months. And on 22 June 1922, in his capacity as a war hero, he is invited to Liverpool Street Station for. It's a war memorial commemoration.

[Expert Guest]

Yes, for the men of the Eastern River Railway Company. And it's Liverpool street and that memorial's still there.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Right. So he doesn't know this, but this day, which is already freighted with great emotion, is going to be the last day of his life. And Ronan, why don't you take us through the story of the day and the final hours of Sam Ray Wilson.

[Expert Guest]

So there's a meeting. The treaty has split Nationalist Ireland in two, including Irish nationalists in London. And there is a meeting on 21 June in Mooney's Pub in Holborn to try and clear the air. And somebody walks in with a copy of the evening paper. And there on page six among the single paragraph news and briefs as we call it in journalism is a notice that Henry Wilson the following day is going to unveil a memorial in Liverpool street station to railway workers who have been killed in the First World War. So there is a motivation among Irish nationalism to have them killed. But now there's the opportunity and two men volunteer, three men in fact volunteer to kill Wilson the following day. Reggie Dunn, Joel Sullivan and Dennis Kelleher. And that evening they go to reconnoiter Liverpool Street Station. They realize that they have no chance of killing him there and getting away so they decide instead that they're going to go and wait for him outside his house at number 36 Eaton Place after he's unveiled the memorial. Right.

[Ronan McGreevey]

So he unveils the memorial and then he's gone home. Two of the men, so they are Dun and o', Sullivan are waiting for him there. And to give people a sense, this is in Belgravia. It is in one of the most expensive, prestigious parts of London. These white stucco townhouses, columns. Yeah, it's a very, very desirable part of the capitals live in which people don't tend to get shot on their own doors.

[Expert Guest]

No they don't. So you talked about a happenstance there. Wilson thought about going straight to the House of Commons after the Liverpool Street Station but changed his mind. He was going to give a speech so he dec, will go home and get changed because he was wearing his field marshal uniform.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's got his sword, hasn't he?

[Expert Guest]

Yes. And he comes back and at 2:30 the cab pulls up outside 36 Eaton Place and Donald O' Sullivan are waiting for him. They take two steps forward and they shoot him six times on the doorstep of his own home. Story goes around very quickly afterwards that the old warrior draws his sword at these brigands but in fact he never gets that far. There's actually only one reliable eyewitness and he never gets as far as actually being able to draw a sword. But his sword falls out of his scabbard. So hence the myth they shoot him six times on the doorstep and then these two men run off.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

One of them kind of hops off, doesn't he?

[Expert Guest]

Because he. This is the most extraordinary of the many extraordinary things about the assassination of Henry Wilson is that the Two men who shoot him are disabled veterans of the First World War. And one of them, Joe Sullivan, has lost his right leg at Passchendaele in 1917. And they basically hobble off. As they hobble off they sh. Two policemen and suddenly there's a. There's a mob, an angry mob that are following them. They hijack a taxi and they make the driver drive in the direction of Marble Arch. But they suddenly alight from the taxi and they're hit on the head with a number of truncheons. And then they're surrounded by the angry mob and taken to George street police station where they're roughed up and then brought to court.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So we've looked at Sir Henry Wilson. Could we just look now at the character of these two men who are Londoners but of Irish stock and British veterans, veterans of the British Army. Why and how do they end up murdering their own senior officer?

[Expert Guest]

Well, one of the great paradoxes of this assassination that Henry Wilson is an Irish born British imperialist killed by two British born Irish nationalists. And Reggie dawn, he's 24, Joseph O' Sullivan's 25. Reggie dawn is son of a British army bandmaster. His mother has. Both of his sides of his family have roots in, in Ireland. He's Jesuit educated at Saint Thickness, which is Alfred Hitchcock. Yes, with, with Alfred Hitchcock is right. And this is very important. When he's facing the hangman's rope, he's constantly evoking his Jesuit background to justify what he's doing. He joins the Irish Guards in 1916. He's wounded during the German Spring Offensive 1918, and he's invalided out. And he joins the IRA through a circuitous route. So he joins the Gaelic League, which is one of these many Irish cultural organizations in London. He goes to a traditional Irish music session in Stamford Hill. And by and by, the route from cultural Irishness to political Irishness is very quick. He joins the IRA in September 1919. And crucially, when we talk about the assassination of Henry Wilson, he's also sworn into the Irish Republican Brotherhood because you.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Say that in many ways it wasn't Ireland that he loved, but the ideal of Ireland is represented by the Gaelic Revival.

[Expert Guest]

Yes, there isn't much evidence that they ever spent much time in Ireland, which is very, very interesting in its own right. Then we come on to Joel Sullivan. He's more a typical second generation Irish. He's one of 12 children from a Fenian family. And we. West Cork. His father is a master tailor in London and he's very well educated, too. He goes to St. Edmund's College in Ware, which is one of the oldest Catholic schools in Britain. And he's one of seven brothers, six of whom who served in the war. And this becomes critically important because when they're looking for information about the killers, they say the Home Secretary, Edward Short, goes into the House of Commons, says, how could these guys be anything to do with Ireland? They served king and country in the First World War.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And he's the one who's lost his leg, isn't he?

[Expert Guest]

Yes, he loses his leg in passion Ashendale in 1970.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And he hides bullets.

[Expert Guest]

Yes, that's right. So later, when he joins the ira, he goes over to Ireland and his leg is hollow. So he. He hikes.303ammunition cartridges in the legs. And in fact, when he gets off the ferry, they see this wounded veteran and some of the British troops that are there give him a lift to his.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And he has an unexpected resemblance to David Beckham and that he has a girlfriend called Posh.

[Expert Guest]

That's right, yeah. And she's asking him, where are you? I haven't seen you since you got out of the rehabilitation hospital. What are you at? And it's one of the few letters that survived from her.

[Ronan McGreevey]

So there's a whole story here, obviously, about the Irish in London and the Irish diaspora and their role in nationalism, which you talk about in your book, but maybe we should take this back to Ireland and think about why this ends up having such colossal repercussions in Ireland. Because, of course, this is just days before the outbreak of the Civil War.

[Expert Guest]

Yes.

[Ronan McGreevey]

To answer that question, let's start by asking, why does this happen? Who orders it? And this is a sort of mystery that's hung over this assassination, which effectively, I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you think you've solved. You think you know who orders it.

[Expert Guest]

Yes. Well, to go back to why this happened, there are separate political divides going on in the south and the north. So Ireland is partitioned in 1921. You have Northern Ireland, which still exists, and then you have the Irish Free State, which is set up in provisional form, so it's going to become the Free State in a year's time, provided that there's an election and there's a constitution. Constitution. And that the government is elected. None of these things are a given. But in any case, the treaty has split Ireland in two, split Nationalist Ireland, and two between those who support the Anglo Irish treaty and those who don't. And at the same Time in the north there is a civil war of its own going on, which is known as the original Troubles. It goes on from July 1920 to 1922, where there's a lot of sectarian violence and there's also a lot of violence between the IRA and the British State forces there, like the RIC and the, the Ulster Special Constabulary. So all of this is going on at that time. And we have in the Free State an election on 16 June in which the pro treaty, those who are either actively support the treaty or are neutral in the treaty, win almost 80% of the vote. So the Irish people have accepted the treaty at this election, but six days later this shooting happens. And at that stage the anti Treaty side had, in defiance of the Provisional Government had occupied these buildings here, the Four Courts, from April. And the Provisional Government at that stage didn't feel that it had the moral or military authority to remove them from the Four Courts. And when the assassination of Wilson happens, David Lloyd George immediately blames the anti treaty garrison who are based here in the Four Courts for the assassination. He writes to Michael Collins that evening saying basically, if you do not remove the garrison garrison from the Four Courts, we will do it for you. So here we have the possibility. This is the ultimatum that the British have given to the Irish. So when I talk about it being Ireland, Sarajevo, you have an assassination and then you have a British ultimatum, same as Austria had an ultimatum to Serbia. The Irish government is now faced with a dilemma. Do we deal with the garrison in the Four Courts or do we risk the British coming back in and a resumption of the war event?

[Ronan McGreevey]

So can we dig into some of those sort of nuances? So first of all, the split, one of the great complexities of the split is that when the negotiators come back to Dublin, the man who has sent them, Eamon de Valera, ends up becoming the leader, effectively the spokesman for those people who reject the deal that they've come back with. And do you think he'd always set them up that way?

[Expert Guest]

It's a perennial question that's asked as to why he did not attend the talks himself. The most cynical explanation is that he knew he wasn't going to get the Republic and that he wanted to blame it on others. But they had promised to come back to him once before they signed anything, and they didn't do that because they were supposed to have had plenipotentiary powers. In other words, they had powers to sign the Anglo Irish Treaty without recourse to him. So it's all very confusing situation. But anyway, they signed the treaty in the early hours of December 6th and then they're back in Dublin and de Valer is absolutely furious that they had gone and done this without him. And he's furious at the actual treaty itself, the contents of the treaty. But there's immediately a cabinet split in favor of the treaty. It's four, three. And then it's debated in Dall Erin, the parliament and it's narrowly passed by 64 votes to 57. So there's immediately there's a public support, there's democratic support for the treaty. The anti treaty side do not accept the vote of Dale Aaron. And the critical issue here is the oath of allegiance.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Right. So this is an interesting thing that I think a lot of people in Britain assume that the critical issue is partition is the separation of Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland. Partition is not really. No, it's not the answer in these.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Arguments because not even the British ministers are kind of thinking that Ireland is going to be permanently partitioned. That's not what's on the table.

[Ronan McGreevey]

A lot of people, I guess think the partition is temporary. But the big issue is the oath.

[Expert Guest]

Yes.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And the oath has a sort of toxic quality to some nationalists. The de Valera, for example, he famously says, well, if people want to accept this treaty and swear the oath, the people have no right to do wrong.

[Expert Guest]

That's right. You would think the oath. Why would you start a civil war over a formula words. But that's not really what it was about. It was about the measure of independence that the Irish state would have. Remember those in the IRA had sworn to bring in to be in an Irish republic. You can't have a republic if you have an authority, allegiance to a foreign monarch. And this was the critical issue. And this was inserted into the Anglo Irish Treaty by the British and they insisted on it staying in the draft constitution because Collins had drawn up a draft constitution which left the oath out. And Lloyd George went mad and said this can't happen. And why are the British insisting on this oath of allegiance? Because they didn't want Ireland to set a precedent for the rest of the British Empire. You, it really wasn't as much about Ireland as it was what's going to happen in India if we allow Ireland to be a republic. What's going to happen in Egypt? What's going to happen in the other countries? So it's, it's really a matter of, of the British did not want Ireland to be a republic for that reason. And then the altus abolished in 1933. The British don't care at that stage. They don't care when Ireland becomes a republic in 1948, but they cared about it in 1922.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And that's just as we're coming towards.

[Tom Holland]

The break, the split.

[Ronan McGreevey]

The split is not just within the politicians, but it's within the army itself, the Irish Republican Army. And in fact, important thing for people to think about when we get into the civil war. A majority of the IRA are opposed to the treaty, is that right? And they are very confident that they will get even more recruits to fight.

[Expert Guest]

The treaty in March 1922. They say they're not going to obey the Provisional Government. They don't regard the Provisional Government as legitimate. We have declared for a republic and we will live under no other law. That was what the anti treaty General Liam lynch said. So that was their attitude. And they said that they had 80% of the IRA. But it was a very difficult situation for the Provisional Government. Remember, this is a government that is effectively on probation. And the people who had won independence for Ireland, a lot of them do not accept the Provisional Government as being legitimate.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

A lot of the kind of senior officers in the Iraq do actually back the treaty, don't they? And they do that on the basis. So to quote Sean McGowan, who is one of the most famous, one of Henry Wilson's neighbours.

[Expert Guest]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And he said to me, symbols, recognitions, shadows have very little meaning because for him, what the treaty would give him would be the legal right to command his own soldiers. And Collins himself has kind of alluded to this in a similar way by saying that the oath of Allegiance, which people in Ireland are kind of tearing themselves up over, he's saying that this likewise is just a form of words and it matters to the English and it's the sugar coating to enable the English people to swallow the pill. So there are kind of people who are casting themselves as realists, both in the government form of Collins, in the ira, the senior commanders who are saying, come on, let's not argue over this, it's just a form of words.

[Expert Guest]

That's right. And what's interesting about the Civil War is that the measure of freedom that Ireland got under the Anglo Irish treaty meant that within 25 years it was a completely independent country. I mean, it joined a League of nations in 1923. It had its own army. This is the 100th anniversary of the first Irish passport been issued. So the substance of the freedom that was wrought was complete, really.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And that's what Collins famously says, isn't it? That it's the freedom to achieve freedom.

[Expert Guest]

To achieve freedom cases in that sense.

[Ronan McGreevey]

So the split happens as you've already described. On 14th April 1922, a group of the Anti Treaty IRA men occupy this building that we're sitting in right now and they are still here when the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson happens. So maybe we should take a break and when we come back after the break we can get back to this question of who ordered the death of St. Wilson and why that matters. And then we'll get into the repercussions for the Irish Civil War.

[Tom Holland]

This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. Workplace stress is now one of the top causes of declining mental health, with 61% of the global workforce experiencing higher than normal levels of stress. I suffer enormous workplace stress because I work from home and there's the loneliness.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And the pressure and so I have to seek help sometimes. I'm not ashamed to admit it.

[Tom Holland]

And you too can take steps this summer to focus on your wellness and.

[Ronan McGreevey]

The steps that you take to manage your workday challenges.

[Tom Holland]

Don't forget that therapy can help you navigate whatever challenges the workday or any day might bring. BetterHelp can teach you positive coping skills.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And how to set boundaries when that.

[Tom Holland]

Work stress just gets too much. It empowers you to be the best version of yourself.

[Ronan McGreevey]

As the largest online therapy provider in.

[Tom Holland]

The world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com restishory that's better. H-E-L-P.com rest is history.

[US Bank Ad]

4Th of July savings are here at the Home Depot, so it's time to get your grilling on. Pick up The Traeger Pro Series 22 Pellet Grill and Smoker now on special buy for $389 was 549. Smoke a rack of ribs or bake an apple pie. This grill is versatile enough to do it all this summer. No matter how you like your steaks, your barbecues are guaranteed to be well done. Celebrate 4th of July with f fast free delivery on select grills. Right now at the Home Depot, it's up to availability.

[Expert Guest]

Psst.

[Apple Cash Ad]

Your payments are showing, but with Apple Cash, your payments are private by design. There are no public feeds, awkward reactions or unnecessary payment drama. Apple Cash lets you send cash and messages right in the conversations you're already having. Or with tap to cash paste someone next to you without looking up a username or scanning a QR code, just hold your iPhone near someone else's. To send, switch to Apple Cash and start sending privately. Apple Cash services are provided by Green Dot bank member fdic.

[Tom Holland]

What is daddication?

[Fatherhood Ad]

The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariana. We call him Day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.

[Tom Holland]

That's dedication. Find out [e-mail] brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Welcome back to the Rest Is History. We're with Ronan McGreevey and we're talking about the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson and the outbreak of the Irish Civil War. So, Ronan, let's just look for a second north of the border to what's now Northern Ireland. This is obviously a huge factor in this. I mean, it's actually oddly absent from a lot of the story of the Civil War and indeed the Irish War of Independence. Seems like a separate story, but obviously it means a lot to Wilson and it also plays an important part in why he's killed, doesn't it? So tell us a little bit about the context of what's going on in the North.

[Expert Guest]

The Civil War wasn't first of all about the status of the north, because in the Anglo Irish treaty, Article 12 was going to set up a boundary commission which would examine the boundary and redraw the borders between north and south according to the wishes of the people. So the assumption was made that this would include Fermanagh and Tyrone, Derry, South Armagh, et cetera. So there was an assumption on the part of both pro and anti treaty that Northern Ireland would by and by be rendered unviable. Right. So it wasn't about the Civil War. Wasn't about that. But in the North, a substantial minority, the Nationalist Ministry minority, find themselves in a state that they feel is inimical to their interests. Northern Ireland is set up in June 1921. So it's very important to understand that by the time the Anglo Irish Treaty is drawn up, partition's already a reality. And Lloyd George is telling, De Valeri is telling the Irish delegations this is not up for discussion. But they keep pushing back on it. So they get their boundary commission. Right. But there is a huge amount of sectarian strife in the north between July 1920 and July 1922. We have the expulsion of Catholics from the shipyards, you have the burning out of homes, you have a lot of sectarian incidents on both sides. And the Northern government of James Craig is struggling to retain control of the situation. So in March 1922 they appointed Henry Wilson as the military advisor to the Northern government. And at the same time the Northern government brings in the Special Powers act, which is known the Flogging act, and where they basically can take away the civil rights of anybody they suspect of being disloyal. So the violence reaches a new crescendo in March 1922. The McMahon family are killed. These are six members of the same Catholic family. There is a massacre in Arnon Street. There is, there's a massacre of Catholic children. And all of this stuff is blamed on the Northern government and for a lot of Irish nationalists, including Michael Collins at the time. Henry Wilson becomes the public face of this crackdown on the Nationalists in the North.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Yes, it's odd, isn't it, because it's slightly unfair. Because in private Henry Wilson is more nuanced. I mean he, I mean it's impossible to be less nuanced than Henry Wilson was. In public.

[Expert Guest]

Yes.

[Ronan McGreevey]

But in private he's a little bit more nuanced. But in public he's seen by nationalists as the apt, absolute embodiment of what they regard. I mean, they use the expression the Belfast pogrom, don't they?

[Expert Guest]

That's right.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And there's a sort of sense that he is the hard faced incarnation of sectarian cruelty.

[Expert Guest]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But I mean, it is odd, isn't it, because he's very opposed to the Black and Towns, for instance.

[Expert Guest]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And he's opposed to religious sectarianism, whether it's from Protestants or Catholics.

[Expert Guest]

Yes. And he always thought that as an Irishman he was acting in his patriotic interest in keeping Ireland within the United Kingdom. He didn't believe, believe that Ireland would thrive outside the United Kingdom. And he was anti the Black and Tans, but not for any humanitarian instincts. He believed in military discipline. He felt that the regular army should have been in Ireland. And also he despaired of the sectarian violence. And he really felt that the Ulster Special Constabulary, the best or most notorious version of that, the B Specials, should have been not a sectarian force, but drawn from both sides of the community. But that wasn't realistic at that time. And Collins said of Wilson before the assassination, he said, we all know only too well the hopes and aims of The Orange Northeast ulcer. They are well expressed to the world with a likely veiled brutality in the language of Sir Henry Wilson. They want their ascendancy restored. They want the British back. British die hards and the mischief makers of the Sir Henry Wilson breed. Are leaving no stone unturned to restore British domination in Ireland. And that in a nutshell is the problem Collins had with Wilson.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And so Michael Collins. Here's an interesting thing that Michael Collins is of course championing the treaty. But at the same time he is sanctioning a new IRA offensive in the north that basically is a complete failure. May and June 1922. And the fact that Collins, he's a court man, he's not a Northerner, but he's so invested in the idea of the North. Is really important for you in explaining who killed Henry Wilson and why.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, before we come to that, should we just look at who the various candidates for the person who ordered the killing are before we name the person that you think is the chief suspect?

[Expert Guest]

Okay, so I have four different. There's five really, but one is that the British government did it. Some people think that. I don't believe that. I don't think they would have carried it out that way had they done so. The one theory is that Donnan o' Sullivan took upon themselves to do this. I don't believe this to be true. These were men subject to military discipline. And their friends and their family have always pushed back against this idea that they would do something as momentous as this without authorization. The anti treaty IRA who was blamed by the British government. There's no evidence that they did it. They said themselves after Wilson was shot that if we had done it, we'd have admitted to it, but we didn't do it. So it's not them, the pro treaty IRA or the national army. I don't think the pro treaty IRA would have done it. I'm certain they didn't do it. Because the pro treaty the IRA at that stage was the national army. It was the first army of the Irish state that was established. The IRA Chief of Staff Richard Mulcahy was horrified by the killing of Wilson. It was the last thing that this sort of embattled government needed. So we can rule them out as well. Which leaves one organization, which is the Irish Republican Brotherhood. The IRB. Not to be confused with the IRA founded in 1858. It's an organization, a secret oathbound organization sworn to uphold an independent republic. So if we come back to Reggie Dunn. Reggie Dunn was sworn into the IRB by a man named Sam Maguire, who was the OC in Britain at the time. Sam McGuire is very famous in Ireland, but not for any revolutionary activity, for sport. The most famous trophy in Irish history or in the Irish sporting calendar, the All Ireland Senior Championship cup, is named.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

After him in London. He had played with Michael Collins, hadn't he?

[Expert Guest]

That's right. He was much older than Michael Collins. He was a mentor to Michael Collins. So if you look at this, Sam Maguire has sworn Reggie Dunn and Joel Sullivan into the irb. And the head of the irb, the one man who could sanction this attack to kill Henry Wilson is the president of the irb, and that man is Michael Collins.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Collins orders it, you think. And can I just ask, before we actually move on to the repercussions, what do people in Ireland think of your theory? What's the reaction been like to your, to your argument?

[Expert Guest]

Nobody has been able to contradict me because I think I have provided a huge amount of evidence. Even in the prepperback edition of the book, I had further evidence from a Martin Wallace, who was a good friend of Reggie Dunn's, which corroborates the evidence that Collins ordered the shooting. I mean, I go into it in great depth, but I do believe it was him.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But Ron, can I ask you. Let's suppose Michael Collins has ordered the assassination. When had he ordered it? Had he ordered it before the treaty is signed or subsequent?

[Expert Guest]

No, he had ordered the assassination, we believe in June 1922, after an incident called Pettigo and Blik, which again was blamed on Wilson but had nothing to do with Wilson, where the IRA occupied two border villages and the British army used howitzers and forceful war artillery to get them out. So I believe that it happened after that. There is is a woman who told a biographer of Collins that she delivered the letter on the mailboat from Euston Station to a guy called Liam Tobin. Liam Tobin delivered the letter to Sam McGuire, who delivers the letter to Reggie Dawn. And then it was just a question of when is the opportunity going to present itself for us to assassinate him. And that's why the notice in the paper is really important. On 21 June, before we get into.

[Ronan McGreevey]

The Civil War, let's just spend a couple of minutes on the aftermath of the crime itself. The funeral is a huge public occasion. I mean, Tom did that reading at the beginning from the Times. It's a massive story. Politicians are horrified when the news reaches the House of Commons. You know, they're all standing up and giving these Speeches often about a man who they really disliked, but they're still Asquith, who despised Wilson, is very shaken and kind of tearful. There's a sense in Britain, I think that something must happen.

[Expert Guest]

That's right.

[Ronan McGreevey]

There can be, there must be some form of repercussion.

[Expert Guest]

Yeah, well he was the first British MP to be assassinated in Britain since the Prime Minister Spencer Percival I think in 1812. So assassination was not the British way of doing things. But as we know from the First World War and from so many other events, that assassination was an occupational hazard for a lot of politicians. Three US Presidents, et cetera. So it's a huge shock in Britain and of course the British government has to be seen to do something. Hence the ultimatum to Collins to get rid of the anti Treaty garrison out of the Four Courts. And the only evidence that he presented was a copy of a newspaper that Lloyd George had that could be bought on the streets of Dublin. This was the only evidence that he had to link the assassination with Reggie Dunpa. But it didn't really matter who was responsible. They had unfinished business in Ireland. The British government was getting tired of this standoff that was happening in the Four Courts. They felt it was undermined in the treaty and this was their cue to do something about.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And the Four Course, which is obviously where we are sitting right now, it's a court complex. I mean it was a court complex back then and a huge sort of. I mean it's a big hulking building and especially would have been loomed even larger at the time. So a symbol of power.

[Expert Guest]

Yes.

[Ronan McGreevey]

And the fact that it's been occupied for months.

[Expert Guest]

Yes, from April. Yeah, for over two months. Yeah.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Is seen by the British and I guess by the Provisional Government in Ireland as a standing provocation.

[Expert Guest]

Yes, it's a standing provocation and that's what it was supposed to be. But the Provisional Government would not take the base and go in to remove them. So they were walking in and out of the Four Courts and so on. It was coming to a head when the anti treaty side also played into the hands of the Provisional Government. By two days after the kindling of Henry Wilson, they kidnap Ginger o' Connell, who's a Free State general and that's the causes belli or the. That's your trigger to say, you know, to tell the Irish people we're going to get these people out of the Four Courts. But they don't mention the Wilson shooting because it's not, it's not politic to do so.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But of course, standing behind this is the shadow of 1916 and the revolutionaries, including Michael Collins.

[Expert Guest]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And Eamon de Valera who had been in the gpo, where similarly a major kind of architectural symbol of the state in Dublin.

[Expert Guest]

Yes.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Is occupied.

[Expert Guest]

That's right.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And presumably part of the strategy of the anti treatyites, if we can call them that, is to force those who are upholding the treaty to play the part of the British.

[Expert Guest]

That's right. That was part of the propaganda at that time as well. And there was also another school of thought that the anti treaty garrison kind of half hoped that the British would try and remove them and that that would unite the pro and anti treaty side against the British. And remember, the British still had a substantial garrison in Ireland. They still had about 8,000 troops. So they could have gone in and removed the anti treaty garrison themselves and that's what they were going to do. But the officer commanding in Ireland, Neville McReady, said, you really don't want to start the war of independence again, you know.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And so instead they encouraged Michael Collins, who according to your theory is actually the person behind the murder of Henry Wilson, to go in and attack these people who the British government are blaming for that assassination.

[Expert Guest]

So Basically they borrowed two 18 pounder field guns from Marlborough barracks here and they positioned them on the keys outside here.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So just to reiterate. Yeah, these are British guns.

[Expert Guest]

These are British guns and British shells. In fact, one of the reasons that the pro treaty side wins a civil war is because of the amount of armaments that they get from a country that they were only fighting a year previous. So they get the 18 pounder guns and they position them at both sides of the bridges here and they give the garrison until 3:30 in the morning to get out. Garrison don't get out. And then they start shelling. This is the beginning of the Civil War. We know that now. But even at that time, the provisional government was hoping that the anti treaty side would come to their senses, that they would say, all right, okay, it's all over now. They even let Liam lynch, the anti treaty general go and he thought he would go back to his his men in Munster and say, listen, there's no point in fighting over this. But actually that's the start of the Civil war.

[Ronan McGreevey]

So we will be telling the story.

[Tom Holland]

Of the Civil war in the next.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Episode and we'll also be talking about what happens to Michael Collins. One of the most famous moments in all Irish history. But just before we get to the end of this episode, why don't we tie up the Story of these two men. Yes, Dunn and o'.

[Expert Guest]

Sullivan.

[Ronan McGreevey]

So what happens to them? They have been overpowered by the mob. They've been taken off to prison. They're clearly going to be put on trial. There is talk among Irish nationalists of a rescue because there's a long history of springing people from prison.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, Michael Collins had himself personally sprung in 1990.

[Expert Guest]

There was a long history, including in 1921, Strangers Prison. There was a long history of jailbreaks. But these were the most wanted men in Britain and they weren't going to make the same mistake again. So Michael Collins, one of the reasons I believe in the culprit, Michael Collins, he sends a huge number of men over to try and rescue the two guys. But they realize that it's a forlorn hope. So instead, three of them set upon the idea of kidnapping the Prince of Wales at the cows regatta. They go to the cause regatta, but they're rumbled because of their Irish accents and also because they had faulty intelligence. The Prince of Wales wasn't there. So the main situation is doomed. The trial only takes one day. It's on the 18th of July, 1922. The reason that that date is significant is down the road from the Old Bailey, Earl Mountbatten is getting married to Edwina. And this is really interesting because in 1979 the IRA, the Provisional IRA, the new reincarnation of the Provisional IRA, killed Earl Mountbatten. And I think the assassination of Mountbatten is the nearest thing in our lifetime to what happened to Wilson.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But there are all kinds of weird echoes and reverberations around this case, aren't there? So Dunn and o' Sullivan are prosecuted by a barrister called, called Travis Humphries.

[Expert Guest]

That's right.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Who I learned from your book had previously acted for Oscar Wilde in his libel action against the Marx of Queensberry, but had prosecuted Sir Roger Casement, who we did a bonus with John Banville a few months back. This Irish Anglo Irishman who had served as a consul for Britain in the Congo but then had become an Irish nationalist and had ended up being killed just before the Easter Rising because unsurprisingly, they get convicted. Yes, and they get hanged. And the hangman is the same person who had hanged John Ellis.

[Expert Guest]

Yes.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. John Ellis had hanged Roger Casement and also had famously hanged a young medical student, 18 year old medical student in Dublin called Kevin Barry, who'd been caught up in a kind of IRA attack. And he's also a very famous figure in Irish Republican mythology, isn't he?

[Expert Guest]

So Kevin Barry is, as the song goes, a lad of 18 summers. He was, was convicted of killing three British soldiers. One actually who was only 15 years of age. And there was a lot of calls for reprieve for Kevin Barry, given his age. But they hanged him in Mountjoy Jail and he became the sort of Martha in Irish history.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So Paul Robeson, Lyn Cohen, Dubliners have all sung about him. So he's another. And then he ends up hanging Reginald Dun and Joseph o'. Sullivan.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Right, so next time we will be coming to the story of the Civil War and what happens to Michael Collins. And obviously if you're a member of our own brotherhood, the Rest Is History club. You can hear that episode right now. If you're not, you can sign up, you can swear your [e-mail] But Ronan, thank you so much. That was absolutely brilliant. And we will see you on Thursday for the next leg.

[Expert Guest]

Bye bye. Thank you.

[Ronan McGreevey]

Goodbye. Hi everybody.

[Tom Holland]

You're still here right at the end of the episode. I'm very impressed by your commitment. But listen, I have a question for you. I want to ask you something in confidence. Do you sometimes listen to the adverts on these episodes and do you sometimes think, do you know what I wish that the listeners to this podcast, I wish they were listening to an advert about my brand rather than the other stuff that Tom and Dominic are promoting on here. If you have thought that there is of course any one way to find out what that would be like, you can disrupt the procession of adverts. You could be the next HSBC Premier or the many other tremendous companies that have advertised on the Rest Is History. And you could put your, your brand in front of millions of like minded listeners by advertising on the Rest Is History and indeed the other shows on.

[Ronan McGreevey]

The Goal Hanger network.

[Tom Holland]

Now you may be thinking, I don't know what the Gohanger Network is. Gohanger are the company behind this very show. And if you are in the market to increase the value of your brand, Goal Hanger would love to hear from you. You can register your interest or indeed your company's interest by going to goal hanger.com right now. And that is Goal G o a l hanger h-a n g e r dot com.