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- [00:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
Thank you for listening to the Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to thereestishory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com in marked contrast to her childhood treatment in Scotland, where she was considered a. At first a sickly child unlikely to live, and later a pawn in a dynastic game. Even at five years old, Mary was hailed as a figure of romance in France. A brave little queen who had been forced to flee the barbaric Scots, the cruel English, for the safe arms of all embracing France. The stage was already set in French minds for the appearance of a childish heroine to their satisfaction. Mary Stuart, with her charm, her prettiness and the natural docility of youth, was ideal material to be molded into the playing of this golden role. So that was Lady Antonia Fraser in her celebrated biography of Mary Queen of Scots. And she, Tom, is describing the impact that the infant, well, not really infants, because she's 5 years old, that the young Scottish queen makes on the French court after she arrives in France in the summer of 1548. And in our first episode, you set the scene, didn't you, by talking about the sort of turbulent politics of Mary's childhood, the death of her father and so on when she was only a week old. Then all this complicated political game with Henry VIII and with the French court. So just remind us what went on there.
- [01:50]
Tom Holland
Yeah. So the rough wooing. Henry VIII wanted Mary Queen of Scots to marry his son, the future Edward vi. He, he'd got the deal, then it got ripped up. He got absolutely irate and sent the English to, to burn and slaughter and loot, which they then did for eight years. And the impact of this ultimately is that Mary Queen of Scots, French mother, Mary of Guise, who is part of France's leading noble dynasty, she's able to foil the English and secure a French match for her daughter. And when I say a French match, I mean it's the most brilliant French match imaginable. Because when Mary Stuart, after a perilous and storm wracked voyage from Scotland, and you were very sniffy about her failure to succumb to seasickness, but I think it's historical proof.
- [02:38]
Dominic Sandbrook
I wouldn't say sniffy, I'd say bracingly skeptical. Go on, continue.
- [02:41]
Tom Holland
Young Mary Queen of Scots steps onto French soil and she does so as a future queen of France, because her betrothed is the dauphin himself. And this is the eldest son of Henri ii, Henry ii, Francois or we'll call him Francis because we're being very Anglophone in our treatment of French names.
- [03:02]
Dominic Sandbrook
I read in your notes, Tom, you've written, I think this is massive punching down from you. You've written he wasn't the hunk he might have been. And then the next line, one year younger than Mary. So he's four.
- [03:11]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [03:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
So I think that's a bit harsh. And you mock him as being short. I mean, all four year olds are short, I think it's fair to say.
- [03:17]
Tom Holland
Well, he's abnormally short, but Mary is abnormally tall, so there's a disproportion in height.
- [03:23]
Dominic Sandbrook
He's got a stutter. And you laugh at him about that.
- [03:26]
Tom Holland
What do you mean, I laugh at him? I'm not laughing at him. I'm just setting the historical record straight.
- [03:30]
Dominic Sandbrook
And you also mock him. Very cruel remarks in the notes about his two left feet.
- [03:35]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [03:35]
Dominic Sandbrook
He can't dance. Mary loves dancing.
- [03:37]
Tom Holland
He can't dance. Mary's already a brilliant dancer.
- [03:39]
Dominic Sandbrook
Brilliant dancer. She's five and she's a brilliant dancer and she can steer the ship single handedly through a storm. Unbelievable.
- [03:44]
Tom Holland
She's very, very precocious. But actually, Francis is great. He's weedy, but he's plucky.
- [03:50]
Dominic Sandbrook
Come on. He's four.
- [03:51]
Tom Holland
Actually, the two of them get on tremendously well. He's not just plucky, but actually very smart. And Mary already has a kind of instinctive sense of what is expected of her. How to play to the gallery. And so she and Francis, everyone agrees they make an adorable couple.
- [04:10]
Dominic Sandbrook
A charming couple.
- [04:11]
Tom Holland
Charming couple.
- [04:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
It's five and four. No, Tom, don't defend it. You love it. Listen only to seconds. The King of France, he's like you is. He's drunk the iron brew and he's massively like. He thinks Mary Queen of Scots is brilliant, doesn't he? The most perfect child I've ever seen. He says.
- [04:28]
Tom Holland
This is historical testimony, Dominic, which you're sneering at and which I'm just. I'm just laying it out as it is. It is what it is. And actually he's. He's so impressed by Mary that he gives orders that she should have precedence over his own daughters in royal processions. And this isn't just because she's the betrothed to the dauphin, but because she's already a queen in her own right. And clearly, you know, she's poised, charming and regal all in one. She's a complete package. And also, he says that she should get nicer clothes than his own daughters.
- [04:59]
Dominic Sandbrook
Should turn up in Scottish fashions.
- [05:01]
Tom Holland
Well, we'll come to the issue of Scottish fashions in due course. I mean, I get the sense that you already hate her because of this.
- [05:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
No, no, no, I'm objective.
- [05:09]
Tom Holland
And you might think that, you know, the king of France's daughters would hate her, but not a bit of it, because the French princesses find her so charming, such fun, that they all end up the most tremendous pals.
- [05:21]
Dominic Sandbrook
Oh, lovely.
- [05:23]
Tom Holland
And in fact, I mean, particularly in Lady Antonia's biography, but more generally, the accounts of Mary Queen of Scots and her chums, you know, the French princesses and so on, it's like reading about the kind of the poshest, funnest boarding school yarn. It's a kind of Renaissance Malory Towers, right? And it's great fun, but there's also quite a lot of schooling. So Mary, like Elizabeth Tudor, her cousin over in England, is given a very, very good education. I think it's fair to say that unlike Elizabeth, she's not an intellectual. Okay, but that's precisely what makes her so charming and fun, because nobody likes an intellectual, do they?
- [06:03]
Dominic Sandbrook
No, no. No one wants a blue stocking.
- [06:05]
Tom Holland
No. So she's given an education that would conventionally be regarded as more appropriate to princes than princesses, but that's because she's a queen in her own right, and so therefore she prepared for her role. And as John Guy, in his brilliant, I think, definitive biography of Mary Queen of Scots, puts it, what she gets is the equivalent for a prospective ruler of a degree in business administration. Okay, so she works hard, but she's not a nerd.
- [06:32]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [06:33]
Tom Holland
Her real talent, much more, I think, than for kind of construing Livy or whatever, although she does that, is for having fun. So girls just want to have fun. And Mary Queen of Scots is the epitome of this, and it's such an amazing background for her because this, of course, is the golden age of the chateau in. In France. Anyone who's been to the Loire and seen the kind of the beautiful chateau there, this is what you're getting. And Mary and Francis and the royal princesses and all their friends are kind of endlessly processing from Fontainebleau outside Paris to Blois and to Chambord on the Loire, she visits them all. And Antonia Frase can't get enough of it, so she. She write EXCLAIMS Beautiful gardens, beautiful galleries, so many other beauties.
- [07:20]
Dominic Sandbrook
Oh, how charming.
- [07:21]
Tom Holland
But her biography is brilliant on this. I mean, it brilliantly evokes what she describes it as the kind of the dreamlike quality of Mary's upbringing in France. You know, she's got ponies, of course, she's got lap dogs, she's got falcons. She has amazing clothes. I mean, the King of France himself has said she has to have the best clothes possible. So she has gloves of dog skin and deer skin. She has velvet shoes of every conceivable color. You know, amazing gowns and dresses and trains. And she has so many jewels that she needs three brass chests just to hold them. So, as I say, the most tremendous fun. But of course, you know, in boarding school stories, you're away from home, and so the issue of homesickness is always there. And so people may be wondering, well, you know, now Mary's a young girl who's gone to a foreign country. Is she ever homesick? And I think the answer to that is that, to begin with, yes, she misses her mother very badly. And, in fact, Mary of Guise will only once be able to make it out of Scotland and come and see her in France. And the reason for that is that she is literally holding the fort back in Scotland. You know, she's got Stirling Castle, and she's surrounded by people who would quite like to see the back of her. And the person who particularly liked to see the back of her is the Earl of Arran, who is next. Next in line to the Scottish throne. And is this guy who is kind of endlessly shifting and running away from defeats and things like that.
- [08:52]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [08:53]
Tom Holland
And so Mary of Guise thinks she. He's a bit of a loser. And she strikes in the spring of 1544. And the reason that she does then is that by this point, her daughter, Mary, Queen of Scots, is 12 years old. And this is the kind of age when it's felt that she is able to kind of start picking up the reins of power. So Mary of Gies has prepared her tactic well. She's got people on side, and she persuades Aaron to resign the regency in exchange for kind of various bungs and benefits and bribes. Mary of Guise, this foreign woman, takes his place as the Regent of Scotland. And of course, this is yet another consolidation of French control over Scottish affairs.
- [09:43]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [09:43]
Tom Holland
And even as this is going on back in France, the Queen of Scots is becoming ever more of a French princess.
- [09:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
Now, you say that, Tom, but am I not right in saying that she does dress sometimes in Scottish national dress to amuse the locals? So that's nice, isn't it?
- [09:59]
Tom Holland
Yes. And this is defined in France as being basically Animal skins, which is not Scottish national dress, but this is what they think. So it's a kind of, it's a kind of mockery.
- [10:10]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right. And she's complicit in it or they. Are they dressing her up against her will or how does it work?
- [10:14]
Tom Holland
A bit of both, I suspect. And I think it reflects the way in which Mary's links to Scotland are starting to fade as she becomes, you know, enters her teenage years. So she had traveled to France with a substantial Scottish train. These are all the people who were seasick while she was being poised and regal and not being seasick on the, on the journey. But most of her Scottish train has, has kind of been sent away. So the Scottish attendants who have come with her, when Mary's French grandmother, her Guise grandmother, Antoinette de Guise, comes across them, she's appalled and she says, we can't have them. And her exact phrase is they are not as clean as they might be. So essentially she's offended by Scottish standards of hygiene. Mary has a governess who herself is an illegitimate daughter of James iv and she's called Lady Fleming. She's stunningly gorgeous. So John Guy describes her as beautiful and voluptuous and she was known by the French as La Belle Ecosse. So the beautiful Scots woman. And she has a fling with Henry ii, the, the French king. And this in itself wouldn't have have been particularly a problem except that she ends up pregnant.
- [11:29]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [11:30]
Tom Holland
And thereby precipitates a scandal and so she gets dismissed and sent back to Scotland in disgrace. However, it is not a completely Scot free zone because Lady Fleming's daughter does remain with Mary in France and she is one of four Scottish girls, all of Mary's age, all of noble birth, all called Mary, who constitute, I guess, I mean we've now moved on from boarding school stories. These are now Mary's squad.
- [11:59]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [12:00]
Tom Holland
This is like kind of gaggle of teenagers in Beverly Hills or whatever. So you've got the daughter of Lady Fleming, Mary Fleming, she's Mary Stewart's cousin. She is the highest ranking of all the four Marys. So you might call her Posh Mary. Then there's Mary Livingston, who loves hunting, loves dancing, loves archery. So you might call her Sporty Mary. Then there's Mary Beaton, who is the most beautiful, so you might call her Pretty Mary. And then there's Mary Seaton, knows all about clothes, she's brilliant at hairdressing. She can kind of tease any head of hair into an absolute miracle. So you might call her Fashion Mary. And the Five of them are completely inseparable. And they get up to all kinds of scrapes and japes, and they're actually a bit like Peter the Great and Marie Antoinette that they love playing at being common people. Okay, so to quote John Guy, Mary adored making cotignac, a type of French marmalade. Putting on an apron and boiling quinces and sugar with powder of violets in a saucepan for hours before laying out the slices of crystallized fruits. And she gets the four Marys to help her, and they have a special kitchen that is kind of created in their, their apartments. And they put on aprons and pretend to be kind of servants or bourgeois women organizing, you know, the housework and the house routines and things like that. It's all such fun, right? All very charming. And it does enable Mary, Queen of Scots to keep up with her native language because she and the four Marys are all chattering away in Scots, even though all of them by this point speak absolutely fluent French. And probably it's their, you know, it's their language of choice.
- [13:36]
Dominic Sandbrook
But by the time she's in her mid teens, I mean, she can probably barely remember any of. I mean, she left when she was five. She can probably remember nothing of Scotland or virtually nothing.
- [13:45]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [13:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
And presumably that's what the French want. They wanted to become, you know, she's the wife of the Dauphin, she's going to become the Queen of France. They effectively want her to be French. No.
- [13:53]
Tom Holland
Well, and specifically the Guise family. So her relations on her mother's side, because she is absolutely a key part of the Guise plans, not just for France, but for Europe more generally. So while Mary's been having this lovely time, you know, with her ponies and making marmalade and so on, her two uncles, and we mentioned them before Francis, who's now the Duke of Guise, and Charles, who's the Cardinal of Lorraine, they've been busy consolidating their grip on France. So the Duke, his nickname is Scarface. He, you know, a battle injury. He's very charming, but he's also very hard nosed. The man of action, veteran of the Italian wars, as we mentioned in the previous episode, and a man who in January 1558, shames himself by capturing Calais from the English.
- [14:40]
Dominic Sandbrook
All right, yeah.
- [14:41]
Tom Holland
Robbing them of their rightful possession on the French mainland. So that's very sad. And the cardinal, who is, as we mentioned, the kind of brilliant and fertile schema, the leading political figure in the French court. And the pair of them remind me of the Duke and the, The Cardinal in the Duchess of Malfi, the Jacobean drama. There's a kind of quality, I think, about them that conveys everything that Protestants tend to find sinister about Catholic powers and courts at this time.
- [15:13]
Dominic Sandbrook
They have a kind of Borgia vibe to them.
- [15:15]
Tom Holland
Yes, exactly. And why they want Mary is not just to, you know, if Mary and Francis have children, then their grandchildren will be kings of France, presumably, but their ambitions are higher than that. They want to forge a kind of Franco British empire that will be under their thumb. And so, step by step, they've been putting the building blocks in place. So they have Mary, Queen of Scots, in their grasp. Her mother, their sister, Mary of Guise, is ruling Scotland as regent. And then on the 24th of April, 1558, their niece, Mary, Queen of Scots, marries the dauphin. And Mary writes to her mother back in Scotland on the morning of her marriage, and she says, all I can tell you is that I count myself one of the happiest women in the world. And, of course, she's an absolute wow at the wedding. Very shockingly, very innovatively, she wears a completely novel color at her wedding, and that is white in France. Unheard of to wear a white dress. And she does this because she knows that it will suit her complexion and her auburn hair. Great festivities, gold and silver coins tossed out into the crowds. And the wedding banquet features six giant mechanical ships that kind of glide around the. The banqueting hall. And it's all great fun and absolutely brilliant, and everyone has a wonderful time. Now, what does this wedding mean for Scotland and its continued independence so objectively, publicly? Nothing, it would seem. So nine days before she gets married, Mary signs and seals a promise to uphold, and I quote, Scotland's freedoms, liberties, and privileges. Okay, but behind the scenes, things are slightly different. So 11 days before she'd signed that pledge that Scottish independence will be maintained, Mary had been given another document that had been drawn up by her geese uncles, which is top secret. Nobody talks about it. And it's been drawn up in very florid legal jargon, basically to kind of dazzle Mary, who's still only 15 years old. But when she puts her. Her seal to it, she is effectively agreeing to a completely bombshell promise that if people in Scotland knew about it, would cause outrage. Because what Mary says is that if she dies without an heir, then her husband Francis, that presumably he was going to become the king of France and all his successors. So all the light, you know, all the future kings of France will rule as well as the kings of Scotland. So Scotland will become part of the French kind of fiefdoms.
- [18:01]
Dominic Sandbrook
Crikey.
- [18:02]
Tom Holland
They also write in that Mary's had this wonderful education, you know, had doing her business studies and stuff, all her ponies, all her. Her dog skin gloves and everything.
- [18:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [18:12]
Tom Holland
And that therefore the Scots owe France a million pieces of gold for it.
- [18:16]
Dominic Sandbrook
What?
- [18:16]
Tom Holland
So very expensive boarding school education.
- [18:19]
Dominic Sandbrook
That's a very expensive boarding school.
- [18:21]
Tom Holland
And effectively it's a blueprint for turning Scotland into a province of France.
- [18:26]
Dominic Sandbrook
The French. God, who would have thought that they would behave like such snakes? And here's the thing. They're not just. That's, that's not even the limit of their ambitions, right. Because they're also. This is the really shocking thing. They have their eyes on a much greater prize, some would say, which is our own beloved country of England.
- [18:45]
Tom Holland
Unbelievable. Shocking. And again, it's Mary who is the key to this plan because. And we haven't touched on this yet, but it's very, very important part of Mary's story. We've talked about how she's a steward, the royal line of Scotland, but she also has the blood of the Tudors, the English dynasty, in her veins. And this is because her grandfather, James iv, the guy who had died at the Battle of Flodden, he had married the sister of Henry VIII, Margaret, so Margaret Tudor. And by 1558, so when Mary is marrying the Dauphin, this has come to take on a potentially enormous dynastic significance. So we left England under the rule of Edward VI, the young Protestant heir of Henry VIII. But he had died in 1553 and he'd been succeeded by his elder sister, Mary Tudor, who is a Catholic. But she, in the months following Mary Stuart's wedding to the Dauphin, has fallen ill and potentially fatally ill. And so the question that is being asked in France, as in England, is, well, you know, if Mary Tudor dies, who is going to succeed her? Now, of course, she has a younger sister, Elizabeth. But the claim of Elizabeth to the English throne is viewed in France, and particularly by, by the Guise, with contempt. So as the Cardinal of Lorraine, the subtle, one might almost say sinister power player at the French court, points out, Elizabeth is the daughter of a witch, namely Anne Boleyn, who had been, you know, put to death by Henry viii. And her daughter Elizabeth had been declared a bastard by act of parliament in 1536. So she seems to be ruled out of the succession in the opinion of the Guise. And worse than that, of course, she's a Protestant. And no cardinal is going to think that a Protestant should succeed to the throne of England. And so the Cardinal of Lorraine argues that the throne should not pass to Elizabeth, but instead to the next in line, who of course, just happens to be his own niece, Mary Stuart. So shocking developments.
- [21:06]
Dominic Sandbrook
Okay, so that is potentially. I mean, that would be momentous. I mean, that would give the Geese family control over not one kingdom, but three kingdoms.
- [21:15]
Tom Holland
Yes.
- [21:15]
Dominic Sandbrook
And so when Mary, bloody Mary, Mary Tudor dies on 17 November 1558, they're straight in there, aren't they? They say, our niece, yeah, Mary, Queen of Scots, the, you know, the Queen in waiting of France, is now the new Queen of England. And they really mean this. I mean, this isn't just a performative gesture, that this is a serious part of their ambitions, of their kind of geopolitical ambition. Right.
- [21:42]
Tom Holland
I think they do mean it seriously. But of course, there is a slightly performative element because they want to treat Mary as though she is the Queen of England. And so the English coat of arms starts featuring alongside those of France and Scotland, you know, in the. The doorways and the crockery and the plates and things that the Dauphin is using in his palace. And when ushers clear away for Mary Stuart, you know, going through the chateau or whatever, they are crying out, make way for the Queen of England. Which is obviously very heady stuff for Mary. I mean, brilliant. She's Queen of Scots, she's now the Queen of England. Soon she's going to be the Queen of France. And that moment arrived very soon because on the 10th of July, 1559, the queen, French king, Henry II, dies of a sports injury. He's been in a tournament and the lance goes through a gap in his helmet into his eye and he dies very soon afterwards. And two months later, on the 15th of September, 1559, Mary's husband is crowned the King of France. And again, Mary is a massive fashion success. She wears white, she looks dazzling. All the other members of the royal family are in black, so they look very dowdy compared to her. And, you know, the Queen of Scots, who the French claim is the Queen of England, is now also the Queen of France.
- [23:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
Wow.
- [23:01]
Tom Holland
To quote John Guy, wherever the French court came to rest and whichever towns it visited, the heraldic arms of Francis and Mary were blazoned with those of England on the gates.
- [23:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
So she has done very well for herself. Queen of Scots, Queen of France, Queen of England. And she's what, about 16 or something? And she's very glamorous and all this. The only slight flaw I can see in this fly in the ointment is that she's not actually the Queen of England.
- [23:29]
Tom Holland
No.
- [23:29]
Dominic Sandbrook
So this is a big problem for her. Because now the person who is the Queen of England is her cousin, Elizabeth, Elizabeth Tudor. And this is the person who, in all the films and the books and the operas and whatnot, is her arch enemy. And you can see why that would be the case. Right. Cause if you're Elizabeth I and you've spent your life, you know, being declared a bastard and being locked up in various houses and all of this, the arrival of this new contender over the Channel in France, who's also very glamorous, and what if you're Elizabeth, you presumably absolutely hate the very mention of Mary, Queen of Scots name.
- [24:06]
Tom Holland
Well, I think that what you do initially is to ensure that powers across Europe do not recognize this potential rival to your throne. And this is exactly what Elizabeth and her diplomats do. So they ensure that, for instance, Mary Tudor's husband, who was the King of Spain, Philip ii, that he recognizes Elizabeth as queen. And even though Philip is Catholic and Elizabeth is Protestant, Philip II does recognize her. And the reason for that is that he's desperate to keep England on board in his ongoing struggle with France.
- [24:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, of course.
- [24:46]
Tom Holland
So power politics trumps kind of religious affiliations. This in turn means that the Pope has to recognize Elizabeth, because the Pope is under Philip II's thumb.
- [24:56]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [24:56]
Tom Holland
And so he has to do what what Philip says. And it's also implicitly agreed, even by the French themselves, because on 2 April 1559, they sign a treaty with England, the Treaty of Cato Cambrai, which effectively is the treaty. I mean, it's kind of complicated, but in a. It's practical effect is that the English acknowledge that they have lost Calais. And the quo for the quid is that the French implicitly accept that Elizabeth is Queen of England.
- [25:25]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [25:25]
Tom Holland
And obviously this is terrible news for Mary because not only has her claim to the English throne been signlined, but actually the guys who have signed this treaty with the English are her own uncles, the geese, the people who've been saying you're the Queen of England.
- [25:41]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [25:42]
Tom Holland
Because it was the Duke of Guise who had captured Calais. And so he wants to confirm his military achievement. And it's doubly bad for Mary because all the kind of claims to the English throne, as you said, it's alienated Elizabeth, but it's particularly alienated two key operators at the English court. And one of these is a guy called Sir Nicholas Throckmorton, who is Elizabeth's ambassador to France, who is a Very, very committed, hot Protestant, and therefore very opposed to the idea of England having another Catholic queen. And he has been very busy making copies of Mary's offensive heraldic arms. So all these ones with England's, you know, the English coat of arms being quartered with the French and Scottish coat of arms, and he's sending them back to London and there they are being read by Elizabeth's most trusted servant, her chief minister, who is a man called William Cecil, who, like Throckmorton, is a very, very committed Protestant. He's. He's passionately loyal to Elizabeth, but he's even more passionately loyal, I would say, to the Protestant cause. And he's also a man who's long been interested in Scottish affairs because he had fought with Edward Seymour, the Duke of Somerset, at the Battle of Pinky, the kind of the disastrous defeat that in a way, had precipitated Mary going to France. So these two Protestants with the ear of Elizabeth, yeah, they loathe Mary and they see her as a potentially mortal threat, not just to Elizabeth, but to the Protestant cause in England. And so they are completely committed to stopping the Catholic Mary ever succeeding to the English throne. And they're so committed to that that actually it Cecil's real ambition is not just to stop Mary becoming Queen of England, but to topple her from her Scottish throne. So Mary, I think, is oblivious to this, but she has made herself an enemy who, as events will prove, is as subtle and dangerous an enemy as any queen could have.
- [27:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
And while this has been going on, of course there have been tumultuous events in Scotland back in her homeland. Events that threaten not just the future of Catholicism in Scotland, but but Mary's own survival as Queen. Tom, let's find out about those after the break.
- [28:02]
Tom Holland
Let's.
- [28:03]
David Olusoga
Right now at the Home Depot, you'll find storage solutions made to fit your needs. Grab an HDX Tuff Tote to protect your tools or keep your sports equipment contained with reinforced snap fit lids. Or stack up and make better use of your space with bins and totes built to last past. Whatever your story, we've got the gear to keep it organized and protected at the Home Depot. How doers get more done. The summer is heating up with Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four.
- [28:37]
Dominic Sandbrook
Light them up, Johnny.
- [28:41]
David Olusoga
This Friday, Time to save the planet.
- [28:43]
Dominic Sandbrook
What's the plan?
- [28:44]
David Olusoga
Trust me, I hate that.
- [28:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
Bad plan. Come on. That's a stupid plan.
- [28:49]
David Olusoga
Prepare for fantastic.
- [28:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
We will face this together as a family.
- [28:55]
David Olusoga
Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four First Steps only theaters Friday. Rap 13 some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. Get tickets now.
- [29:05]
Sarah Churchwell
I'm David Ulushoga.
- [29:06]
John Knox
And I'm Sarah Churchwell. Together we're the hosts of Journey Through Time, where we explore the darkest depths of history through the eyes of the people who live through it.
- [29:14]
Tom Holland
It.
- [29:14]
Sarah Churchwell
Today we're going to tell you about our new series on the Great Fire of London. One of the great pivotal events of the 17th century, one of the most important events in all of English and British history.
- [29:25]
John Knox
It began at a bakery on Pudding Lane and quickly turned into a catastrophe. It consumed 13,000 houses. It decimated London and caused £10 billion worth of damage in today's money. It even burned down the iconic St. Paul's Cathedral.
- [29:41]
Sarah Churchwell
The city was already devastated by the great plague, but rumors of foreign invasion led mobs to attack innocent foreigners on the streets. In this episode, we'll explore the chilling consequences of rumors of fake news, of xenophobia, problems that clearly are not unique to today.
- [29:58]
John Knox
From desperate attempts to save their homes and belongings to the struggle to assign blame, which turned deadly. This is the story of the fire as it was lived through by the people on the ground and the lasting impacts it left on the city.
- [30:12]
Sarah Churchwell
We've got a short clip at the end of this episode.
- [30:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
To promote a woman to bear rule, superiority, dominion or empire above any realm, nation or city is repugnant to nature. It's contumely to God, a thing most contrary to his revealed will and approved ordinance. And finally, it's the subversion of good order, of all equity and justice. Now, that was archive recording of a Scot, an author of one of the most famous pamphlets ever written by a Scot. I mean, history is littered with famous Scottish pamphlets, but this is probably the most famous and it's the first blast of the trumpet against the monstrous regiment of women. And disappointingly, monstrous regiment there actually means the kind of unnatural rule of women.
- [31:09]
Tom Holland
I'd always thought of it as being, you know, a military squad of women with bayonets marching towards cannon or something.
- [31:17]
Dominic Sandbrook
Now, it's author you describe in your notes, Tom, as top feminist and funster John Knox. So he's the great sort of godfather of the Scottish Reformation. He absolutely hates Mary Queen of Scots, doesn't he?
- [31:30]
Tom Holland
Yeah, he does, he does.
- [31:32]
Dominic Sandbrook
But here's the thing. His target in 1558, when he wrote that pamphlet, she wasn't really his target there. His target was somebody else. Mary Tudor in England and Mary of Guise in Scotland, Right?
- [31:44]
Tom Holland
Yeah, principally Mary Tudor.
- [31:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
He basically doesn't like Mary's.
- [31:47]
Tom Holland
Yeah, it's not just women, it's Marys. He's not in favor of them at all. And he sees definitely Mary Tudor, but also by extension, Mary of Guise, as kind of exercising a Catholic tyranny over the whole of Great Britain.
- [32:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [32:00]
Tom Holland
And so that pamphlet is a kind of pain, cry of. Of despair and frustration that Catholic rule under these women seems impregnable and that the Reformation threatens to be stillborn in the island. And yet, Dominic, you, as a bluff Protestant, will be thrilled to learn that only two years later, everything had been stood on its head. Okay, so by 1560, the authority of the Catholic Church in Scotland has been toppled, and actually, as it turns out, decisively defeated Protestant reformers like Knox himself, perhaps preeminently Knox himself, have emerged triumphant. And the measure of what Scotland has gone through in those two years is that Alec Ryrie, the great historian of British Protestantism, in his book the Origins of the Scottish Reformation, he can describe those two years as not just one of the most extraordinary national transformations in European history, but he goes on to say that it's arguably the first modern revolution.
- [33:08]
Dominic Sandbrook
He disagrees with you because you claim the first modern revolution took place hundreds of years earlier, and yet he's a famous professor, Tom, how could you explain that?
- [33:17]
Tom Holland
I think what he probably means there is the first revolution of modern Europe, which is a slightly different way of phrasing it.
- [33:24]
Dominic Sandbrook
Is that what it is?
- [33:25]
Tom Holland
I think that is what it is. So people may be wondering, what on earth has happened? What is this great revolution? And I guess that as good a way as any of answering that question is to look at the career up until this point of John Knox, who was probably the most famous of all Mary Stewart's adversaries. And so he, like so many of the early Protestants, I mean, this was such a feature of, you know, the series we did on Martin Luther. He had originally himself been a Catholic priest, and probably he was converted to Protestantism by Patrick Hamilton, who we mentioned in the previous episode was Scotland's first Protestant martyr. He'd been burnt at st. Andrews in 1546. And the man who presided over that execution, who'd brought Hamilton to trial and then convicted him, and then set him up in a stake in St. Andrews strapped with bags of gunpowder. This was Scotland's leading churchman, a guy called David Beaton, who was the archbishop of St. Andrews, but was also Scotland's last cardinal, as it will prove. And three months later, Beaton gets killed by five assassins who are out to revenge themselves on Beaton for the death of Patrick Hamilton. And they murder him in his own stronghold, the castle of St. Andrews, which is right on the coast, pretty impregnable. And they hang his body from the castle walls. It's been stripped naked. Then they pull it down. One of the Protestants who've kind of gathered around to exalt over his humiliation, then urinates in the mouth of the corpse. They then salt his body and they throw it into the most notorious dungeon in the whole of Scotland, which is inside the castle of St. Andrews. And it's a very deep bottle shaped hole. So once you've been put in it, you can only be got out with a kind of rope. And it's, it's dug below the level of the sea right next to the, you know, whether you can kind of hear the distant booming of the waves through the rock. And this is, you know, appointed humiliation of the, the preeminent Catholic churchmen in.
- [35:33]
Dominic Sandbrook
Scotland and yet also a fairly standard night out in St. Andrews, I would say.
- [35:37]
Tom Holland
Yeah, well, students at St. Andrews can take us up on that. So Knox is obviously thrilled by this. He's one of the Protestants who goes to the castle of St. Andrews, which is now kind of stronghold of Protestantism. He serves the garrison there as its chaplain. And they're able very easily to hold out against the Scottish authorities up until the point when Henry II sends a massive task force to Scotland to try and throw the English out. And this task force has enough men that they can go and capture the castle of St. Andrews and, and all the garrison are taken prisoner and they are sent to the galleys and Knox is among them. So he gets chained up on the bench, he has to pull the oars and so on. And he does this for a year and a half and finally he is set free as a result of a personal intervention from the English Protestant king, Edward vi, who admires John Knox. So, so Knox is set free, can't go back to Scotland, so he goes to England. He's given a parish in Newcastle which he chooses because it's pretty close to Scotland. And so Protestant refugees can kind of mass there. You know, it becomes a kind of center of resistance to Mary of Guise and her Catholic regime in Scotland. And Knox thinks Edward VI is brilliant. He thinks England is brilliant. He sees it as, you know, the new Jerusalem. Brilliant is absolutely wonderful. Hooray. And then of course, Edward VI dies and is succeeded by Mary Tudor, who is Catholic, who will go on to be called by Protestants Bloody Mary because of her burning of Protestants. And so Knox thinks, ah, this isn't A good place for me. And so he scrams and he ends up in Switzerland, in Geneva, which has become a, a kind of godly city of reformed religion under the, under the aegis of John Calvin, with Luther, one of the two great figures of the Protestant Reformation. And if Knox had thought that England was brilliant, he thinks that Geneva is even better. So he described it famously as the most perfect school of Christ that ever was in the earth since the days of the Apostles.
- [37:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
Crikey. But he does go back to Scotland from time to time, doesn't he?
- [37:50]
Tom Holland
A couple of times he goes back, yeah.
- [37:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, because there have, there's now a sort of coterie of Scottish lords who are prepared to protect him. And is that because they are Protestants themselves now?
- [38:03]
Tom Holland
Yes.
- [38:04]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right. So basically the Reformation has swept through Scotland, including the kind of higher, the aristocratic hierarchy.
- [38:11]
Tom Holland
Yes. And in fact the most significant of these is Mary Stuart's own half brother, so one of the many illegitimate sons that her father, James V had fathered. And he also is James. So James Stewart, Lord James Stewart, he's often cast as a kind of Machiavelli and he certainly, he's kind of very subtle man, he's certainly capable of incredible duplicity, but he is also very sober minded and I think very devoutly Protestant. So he, all his kind of, his political maneuvering is, I think, in the cause of very strongly held Protestant convictions. And so Jenny Wormald, the great Scottish historian who's very down on Mary Stuart, she loves her half brother, she thinks that Lord James Stewart is brilliant, describes him as a true Stuart, tough, able, masterful, self, interested. And I guess by implication she's implying that Mary Stuart is none of those things.
- [39:05]
Dominic Sandbrook
And he's great pals for Cecil, isn't he, with the guy who's going to become Elizabeth I's great spymaster. So this is a really important axis in Mary's story.
- [39:15]
Tom Holland
Yes. And so this guy who in due course will become the Earl of Moray, and that's the name by which he's better known, he's a key player in the story of Mary Queen of Scots. And so he is able to provide patrons, patronage to Protestants in Scotland. But it's also because Mary of Gies, who's the regent, even though she's Catholic, I mean, she's not a natural fanatic, she's not a Mary Tudor. Her priority, I think, is to keep Scotland secure for her daughter, Mary Queen of Scots, her dynasty, the Guises, her country, France. And if that means cutting a bit of slack to Protestants, then She's happy to do that. Her commitment to, you know, preserving Scotland for the true Catholic faith is kind of fourth on the list, I would say.
- [40:03]
Dominic Sandbrook
Okay, but then presumably what changes everything is the death of Mary Tudor in 1558 and the fact that Elizabeth becomes the Queen of England, because Mary was not an old woman, so she could have lived for 10 or 20 years. This is Mary Tudor 10 or 20 years more. But with her death and the accession of Elizabeth, the whole kaleidoscope takes another turn. Well, why does it take such a turn? Is it basically because England now between Scotland and France is ideologically different and therefore there's a new impetus towards Protestantism in Scotland? Why? Why does Elizabeth's succession make such a difference to the story?
- [40:42]
Tom Holland
Having a Protestant on the English throne obviously is a massive destabilizing factor, certainly for Mary of Guise. And the reason that it's a disaster is that it goes with the grain of trends within Scotland. Her rule, although it's been very competent and although she's a very effective political operator, she is French. And this has become increasingly unpopular with large swathes of Scottish public opinion and particularly with the Scottish nobility. And so by the time that Elizabeth becomes queen in England, there are nobles in Scotland who are starting to think that France is playing the role in the national demonology that the English traditionally have played. So there is one resentful lord, describes the alliance with France, the old alliance, as an iron hook that hath caught and killed afore. Now the most part of our ancestors, which is a kind of massive rewriting of history. And part of the reason for this isn't just dislike for the kind of heavy handed character of the French garrisons that are providing Mary of Guise with her muscle in Scotland. It's also that she is trying to provide Scotland with the kind of centralized rule that she, as a French aristocrat takes for granted. She thinks this is what is required for a successful modern state. And again, Scottish nobles feel resentful of this. They feel kind of cut off from her patronage. They feel that the traditional roads by which they can source power are being closed off to her. And then on top of that, there's the continued presence of their own queen. So Mary Stuart, Mary of Giza's daughter in France, which is, I think, experienced by many Scots not as redounding to Scotland's glory, but as a national humiliation. And we talked about this when we did Marie Antoinette, the way in which often foreign queens in France are kind of hostages. You know, they're held there in a Gilded cage to ensure good behavior from the country that the Queen has come from.
- [42:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
So a group of these guys have already formed. I mean, I tell you what they love in Scotland, they love a covenant. They can't get enough of a covenants, covenants like tea cakes, iron brew, they love all that. They've pledged themselves to the Reformation. And with the arrival of Elizabeth, these sort of. These people, what do they call themselves? The Lords of the congregation.
- [43:08]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [43:08]
Dominic Sandbrook
They now think, brilliant, they've got a Protestant monarch in England and we can actually use this. Now the time has come to kick the French out of Scotland and actually to completely turn the alliance system on its head and to have an ideologically based Protestant alliance with the old enemy, with the English.
- [43:28]
Tom Holland
Yes. And Dominic, you might say the kindling has been laid, but the spark needs to be provided. And the spark is provided by the return to Scotland on the 2nd of May, 1559 of John Knox. And I think it's fair to say that just as Mary of Guise is kind of unsettled by the accession of Elizabeth in England, so also, ironically, is John Knox, because John Knox is actually very, very pro English. He had wanted to go to England rather than to Scotland because he thought that the English were naturally much holier, always very grateful to Edward vi, always kind of held a slight candle for England. But it's unfortunately his blast of the trumpet against the Mocktras regiment of women, which he had been targeted against. Mary Tudor comes out just as Mary dies and is succeeded by the Protestant Elizabeth. And Elizabeth is massively offended by it.
- [44:29]
Dominic Sandbrook
To be fair, you can see why. I mean, of course you can.
- [44:31]
Tom Holland
And so she bans Knox from England. And so faux de mieux, he, Knox ends up going to Scotland. So Knox actually, ironically, is a bit like Mary. His loyalties primarily are to a foreign country.
- [44:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right?
- [44:45]
Tom Holland
Knox would rather be in England, Mary would rather be in France, but they both end up in Scotland. And Knox's arrival in Scotland, as I said, has this kind of incendiary impact. So in Perth, he gives a brilliantly inflammatory sermon that sets mobs roaming the city, attacking the city's monasteries. Gives another sermon in St Andrews, and the congregation rush out and start disassembling the local cathedral. And all across Scotland, he inspires these kind of waves of godly vandalism. Abbeys are stripped bare and people go into the orchards of friaries and chop them down and take all the apples. And my favorite detail is that that lots of godly reformers go into the gardens kept by the monks and literally Pull up all the flowers by hand. You know, these are. Flowers are offensive unto the eyes of the Lord. And I guess the key indicator that Knox and the Lords of the congregation have the wind in their sails comes when the Earl of Arran, who, you know, we've been fingering throughout the story as Scotland's supreme trimmer, a guy who's constantly responding to the blowing of the wind, he changes sides. So initially he. He'd been a supporter of Mary of gies. Then by September 1559, he thinks, oh, it's all up with her, I'm going to switch sides. And he brings over a whole nother swathe of the Scottish nobles, so that by October, most of the lords in, certainly in the Scottish Lowlands. It's different in the Highlands, which, of course is that much more remote. But most of the lords in the Scottish Lowlands are openly ranged against Mary of Guise, the French regent. And in fact, there are only two leading noblemen in the Lowlands who stay loyal to her. And one of these is Lord Seton, who is the brother of Mary Seaton. Fashion Mary, the one who's, you know, very into her fashion. And the other is a guy called James Hepburn, who is the son of Patrick Hepburn, who we mentioned in the previous episode, the Earl of Bothwell, who was the hereditary Lord Admiral and Sheriff of Edinburgh, who Mary of Guise had been flirting with. And James Hepburn has succeeded to those titles and to the Hermitage, the grim castle in the debatable lands. And he's a very effective defender of Mary of Guise. And his most spectacular stunt is to pull off an enormous gold heist, because Cecilia, Elizabeth's minister in England, who's obviously delighted at there being a Protestant revolution in Scotland, he sent a massive train of gold. And James Hepburn, we'll call him Bothwell from now on, Bothwell, ambushes it and makes off with all the gold. And the news of this is brought to Mary Stuart in. In France, Mary Queen of Scots. And she's terribly touched by this display of loyalty on the part of Bothwell. And from that point on, I think it's fair to say the Earl of Bothwell is a man who will have a, you know, a place in her heart. She has a certain tendress for Bothwell because she's so grateful to him and.
- [47:42]
Dominic Sandbrook
She'S completely powerless in all this. I mean, I know she's the Queen of France, but she presumably can't do anything to help her mother, Marie of Guise.
- [47:50]
Tom Holland
No, she can't do anything. And she sits there impotently in France, watching events in Britain, where it just gets worse and worse from her point of view. So in February 1560, her half brother, Lord James Stuart, negotiates a treaty in Berwick, the town on the border of England and Scotland, on behalf of the Lord of the Congregation. And this is an overtly Protestant alliance. And the English send a fleet that blockades Mary of Guise in Leith. Elizabeth commits England to protecting Scotland's ancient rights and liberty. So this is not cast as a kind of English invasion and English takeover, but the consequence of this is that the old alliance, the, the alliance between France and Scotland that had been the foundation stone of Scottish foreign for 300 years is now effectively defunct. And whether of a broken heart or not, Mary of Guise gives up the ghost. On the 11th of June, she dies, only 44. And with her death, everything is kind of thrown up in the air because Scotland now effectively has no ruler, certainly no, no Catholic ruler. Then, one month later, a further calamity for Mary Stuart, who's now lost her mother. A new treaty is signed in Edinburgh between England, the Lords of the Congregation, and in a completely stunning volt fast, her two uncles, the Duke of Guise and the Cardinal of Lorraine, the very people who have been pushing her to take up the rule of England throughout this. And the terms are completely humiliating for Mary Stuart. So France now officially recognizes Elizabeth as Queen of England. They've done it implicitly before. Now it's, you know, it's signed and sealed. Mary is obliged to drop her claim to the throne of England. So again, that is now legal. All French troops are to evacuate Scotland. So those troops that have been sent by Henry II that Mary of Geese had been using as her garrison as her kind of cutting edge, they all have to withdraw. And it is agreed that any failure on the part of, of the King of France, Francis and Mary his, his queen to ratify the treaty will license Elizabeth in England to intervene in Scotland to uphold its terms. So it's a complete triumph for the English crown and for the Protestant insurgency in Scotland.
- [50:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
So I guess Mary has. Mary Queen of Scots at this point has been basically only one consolation. So she's lost control of Scotland insofar as she ever had it, which she didn't. She's not going to be Queen of England, but at least she's Queen of France. And she's got this husband who you said he's got two left feet, he's too short, he's got a stutter which you don't rate.
- [50:43]
Tom Holland
He's plucky and smart, he's a nice.
- [50:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
Guy and and thank goodness nothing has happened to him and. And hopefully it won't. Right, Tom?
- [50:50]
Tom Holland
Right, so then Mary of Giz has died in June. And then in mid November, Francis goes out hunting and he comes back and he says, oh, I'm feeling a bit dizzy and I've got a kind of strange buzzing in my ears. I hope it's nothing serious. By the end of the month, he is suffering a series of violent fits. By early December, weird matter is starting to ooze out of his ears and then it starts coming out as kind of dribble from his mouth and obviously this isn't a good sign. And on the 5th of December, he dies.
- [51:23]
Dominic Sandbrook
Crikey. I mean, you know, you never rated him to be fair. I did.
- [51:27]
Tom Holland
I said he was plucky and I said he was smart. That's all you need. But also the other thing you need is not to die of matter coming out of your ears. But he's gone. And for Mary, who it said wept for a month on the news of her mother's death, in a way, this is an even more devastating blow, because she's still only 17, but she's now been orphaned, she's been widowed, and now she's no longer the Queen of France. And so her whole future, which had previously seemed so glittering, I mean, now, you know, what's she going to do? Her uncles, these arch manipulators and Machiavels, they wanted to stay in France because what they want to do is basically to marry her off to Francis's younger brother, Charles, who is now the new king. But Mary is smart enough already to know there is no prospect of this. And the chief problem she faces is her mother in law, who Dominic is a link to one of the previous series we did, which is the Medici. So Mary's mother in law, so the wife of Henry II is Catherine de Medici. So she's from the Dukes of Florence. And Catherine de Medici had always disliked Mary as a kind of tool of the geese. You know, she, Catherine de Medici, is a very, very smart operator. I mean, a ruthless operator. And she does not trust Mary. She wants her cleared from the chessboard. And she makes this very clear to Mary. So just one day after Francis's death, she sends a message to Mary saying, hey, give me back all the jewels. You know, they're not yours anymore. They belong to the Queen of France. You're no longer Queen of France.
- [53:05]
Dominic Sandbrook
Crikey. She's not messing around.
- [53:06]
Tom Holland
Yeah, she's not. And so Mary knows there's no way that Catherine de Medici is going allow her to marry another of her sons. The other reason why Mary isn't happy to go along with the schemes of her uncles is that, you know, she views them as having completely stabbed her in the back because they've signed this Treaty of Edinburgh, you know, they've deprived her of her right to the throne of England and she feels that they had betrayed both her and her mother. And so because of that, the obvious solution is that she goes back to Scotland, because there, at least, she is Queen of Scots.
- [53:41]
Dominic Sandbrook
Do you know what? She should have stayed in France. She should have knuckled down, just kind of had a little palace of her own, had a quiet life, a lot of dancing and she'd have lived to a ripe old age. This is a great mistake that she makes.
- [53:54]
Tom Holland
Do you know who wouldn't agree with you is Jenny Wormald, the great Scottish historian, who also, I think, was herself Catholic. She feels that Mary should have gone back immediately to Scotland because the sooner she gets back, the better the chance there is of reversing the recent successes of Protestantism in Scotland. And the reason for this is that although many of the leading nobility are now Protestant, the vast mass of people in Scotland are still Catholic. So very like England under Henry viii.
- [54:24]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, of course.
- [54:25]
Tom Holland
And her status as Queen is still unchallenged, as Jenny Wormal puts it. There is no doubt about the strength and prestige of the House of Stuart and the profound unwillingness of the Scots to challenge it. So it's what we were talking about in the first episode. Mary, by virtue of being a steward, she can demand a kind of loyalty that is instinctive to the vast number of Scots of her subjects. And so that being so, Wormald argues, I think entirely convincingly that Mary could have played the part of a Mary Tudor in Scotland. You know, she could have gone back, she could have sought to reverse the Reformation. And Wormold is very, very down on Mary because of this. I think having myself had two girls who at one point were 17, I think it's quite a big ask to, to expect a 17 year old girl who hasn't been to the country that she's being asked to go back to since she was five years old, to go back and, and kind of reverse these seismic developments. I, I, I think it's quite tough to be down on Mary for having done the challenge. And I am more sympathetic to Mary for essentially prevaricating. So rather than hurrying back to Scotland, she, she goes into mourning for Francis. So that lasts 40 days. She then goes on a kind of massive tour around France, saying goodbye to all her, you know, her, her relatives and her pals and so on. And she is also, throughout this, engaging in kind of massive slanging matches with Nicholas Throgmorton, the English ambassador, who is trying to pressure her to sign the Treaty of Edinburgh, which he refuses point blank to do. However, she is preparing to go back to Scotland and the key figure in her plans is her half brother, Lord James Stewart. And the reason for that is that I think Mary instinctively, when in trouble, looks to her family, even though her mother had not let her down, but her uncles have done. So there is a problem with Lord James Stewart, which is of course that he's a Protestant, and not just a Protestant, but he's, you know, he's basically been the kind of the leader of the Lords of the Congregation, you know. But as I say, he is family. And Mary is obviously hoping that blood is thicker than water. And sure enough, between them, they arrive at a kind of an agreement compact that when it's announced, appalls both her Guise uncles and John Knox. And the reason for that, the reason that the compact appalls the Guise is that Mary promises to recognize the Reformed Church, the Protestant Church that, that, you know, John Knox is, is kind of now the leading light of as being Scotland's official church. In return, she will be allowed to celebrate the Catholic Mass in her own chapel at Holyrood, which is the Royal palace in Edinburgh. And I think there's no real question as to who gets the better of that deal. I mean, clearly, you know, Mary is, is selling Catholic Scotland down the river, really.
- [57:29]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right. But at least she'll be able to go back as queen, right? So, you know, it's a big win.
- [57:35]
Tom Holland
For her and as a Catholic queen. And so she leaves Calais on the 14th of August, 1561, and with her go her, her four beloved Marys. And they stand on the deck saying Adieu, Adieu, bidding tearful farewells to France, mourning the fact that they worry they will never see France again, which is entirely accurate. Mary will never see France again. They're a bit worried because Mary still hasn't signed the Treaty of Edinburgh with Elizabeth. And so they're worried that the English may be, you know, looking out for her to try and take her hostage. And in fact, as they, they, they are going up the Northumbrian coast, one of her transport ships, which is carrying her horses, gets picked up by an English protection patrol ship on suspicion of piracy and taken into Newcastle. So these horses are impounded and it will take three months for them finally to be sent north to Edinburgh. Mary herself, she gets to, to Scotland, to Leith in record time. And it takes her five days, no seasickness, of course, because she's so poised. And they arrive off Leith and the harbour is thickly veiled by mist so that Mary, in a kind of. It's pregnant with symbolism, can't actually make out the contours of her kingdom through this, this sea mist. And John Knox, you know, I mean, he's a man ready to see it as an omen. And he wrote, the very face of heaven at the time of her arrival did manifestly speak what comfort was brought unto this country with her. To wit, sorrow, dolor, darkness and impiety. But Dominic, was he right?
- [59:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, we love a bit of darkness and impiety on the Rest Is History. And I'm happy to say that next time there'll be loads of both as we explore the melodramatic story of Mary Queen of Scots on her return to Scotland. Now, if you cannot wait to hear that story, which is one of the most remarkable we've ever done, the great news is that you can hear it and the remaining three episodes of this series by joining our very own group of evangelical reformers, the Lords of the Congregation. The Rest is history club@therealestishistory.com so what are you waiting for? And on that bombshell, goodbye.
- [59:58]
Tom Holland
Bye bye. Foreign.
- [60:10]
Sarah Churchwell
It's David Ulusoga from Journey Through Time. Here's that clip that we mentioned earlier. If you look at all of the accounts of the fire at this point, as we get to the end of Sunday the 2nd, the 1st day, this fire is not behaving in any way the way fires traditionally did in London. And there are some people who've argued that, that it was becoming a firestorm, that the heat and the wind and the movement of air caused by the fire was feeding. It was becoming self sustaining, as it were. John Eveling, who's a great writer and a diarist of this moment, he talks about the sound of the fire. He said it was like thousands of chariots driving over cobblestones. There are descriptions in Pepys and elsewhere of this great arc of fire in the sky. I mean, imagine that everything around you is colored by the flames, yellows and oranges, and above you is this thick black smoke. This is a city, you know, these are streets you walk. This is a place that's deeply familiar to you and it looks completely otherworldly. It looks like another, like a sort of landscape you've never seen before. People describe the fire almost as if it's supernatural.
- [61:25]
John Knox
If you want to hear the full episode, listen to Journey Through Time. Wherever you get your podcasts.