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- [00:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
Thank you for listening to the Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to thereestishory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com.
- [00:19]
Tom Holland
This episode is presented by Adobe Express. The Quick and easy Create Anything Applied. What does that mean? Well say you need to make a presentation or a video or a social media post or a flyer to some. Certainly to me that sounds intimidating, but.
- [00:38]
Dominic Sandbrook
Tom, with Adobe Express's intuitive features like templates, generative AI and real time collaboration, it has never been easier. Adobe Express Try it for free. Search Adobe Express in the App Store.
- [00:55]
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- [01:27]
Dominic Sandbrook
So Tom, we have some incredibly exciting news for our listeners in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, don't we?
- [01:33]
Tom Holland
We absolutely do Dominic, because we are going to be in Belfast, in Dublin and in Cork next year in April and we will be talking about the tragic story of Titanic.
- [01:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
We will be on stage in Belfast at the Waterfront hall on Friday 17th April, will be in Dublin at the Convention center on Saturday 18th April and in Cork at the Opera House on Monday 20th April. Tickets will go on sale at thereestishistory.com exclusively for members of the Rest is History Club from next Monday 22nd September 2025 at 9am so join the Rest is History Club at@therealstishistory.com Now if you want to snap your tickets up early.
- [02:25]
Tom Holland
And tickets will then be available to purchase for everyone else@therestishistory.com from next Thursday. That's the 25th of September 2025 at.
- [02:35]
Dominic Sandbrook
9Am so for your chance to see us on stage live in Belfast, Dublin or Cork, Simply head to therestishistory.com to get your tickets.
- [02:58]
Daniel Defoe (reader)
Rochester and Chatham are two distinct places but contiguous except the interval of a very small marsh or vacancy between Rochester and Chatham. There is little remarkable in Rochester except the ruins of a very old castle and an ancient but not extraordinary cathedral. But the river and its appendices are the most considerable of the kind in the world. This being the chief arsenal of the Royal Navy of Great Britain. The buildings here are indeed, like the ships themselves, surprisingly large. And in their several kinds they're beautiful. The warehouses, or rather streets are warehouses and storehouses for laying up. The naval treasure are the largest in dimension and the most in number that are anywhere to be seen in the world. The ropewalk for making cables and the forges for anchors and other iron work bear a proportion to the rest, as also the wet dock for keeping masts and yards of the greatest size where they lie sunk in the water to preserve them. The boatyard, the anchor yard, all like the whole, monstrously great and extensive. And they're not easily described.
- [04:21]
Theo
So that Tom was Daniel Defoe, who was a Londoner, in the first volume of his Tour through the Whole island of Great Britain, published in 1724. It was a massive success with the exception of Robinson Crusoe, and it was by far his bestselling book. But never before has it been read out on the top of Rochester Castle on a grey and slightly dreary day in howling wind to an audience of bored looking camera people. So very exciting scenes.
- [04:53]
Tom Holland
Yeah, because this is the long awaited episode on Chatham High street, but not just Chatham High Street, Intra Chatham, which is the stretch that leads us onto Rochester High street. And, and we are on the 100 foot summit of the keep of Rochester Castle.
- [05:10]
Theo
So Daniel Defoe, just for people who don't know Defoe, was, he wasn't just Britain's first novelist, he was Britain's, one of Britain's greatest journalists, wasn't he? And he did this tour of the whole island of Great Britain and he published it just a couple of decades after the act of Union had created a united Kingdom out of England and Scotland. So this is a moment in British history like no other. It's a point in which Britain is poised on the brink of absolutely enormous political, economic, diplomatic change.
- [05:43]
Tom Holland
Absolutely. And Defoe essentially loved change. He loved the idea of progress. Progress. Very wiggish, isn't it? And although Defoe ended up working essentially as a kind of spy for, for a Tory government, I think in his instincts he was, he was all about the wigs. So as a young man he had fought for the Duke of Monmouth against his uncle, the Catholic King James ii. And Monmouth's rebellion had gone disastrously badly. But Defoe had managed to avoid being hanged, which is good news for fans of Robinson Crusoe and 18th century travelogues around Britain. He, he'd loved the Glorious Revolution when James II got kicked out and replaced by the Protestant William and Mary. And he'd been a big enthusiast for the acts of union between England and Scotland and had actively worked to promote them, actually.
- [06:34]
Theo
And as you can probably tell from that accent, which is exactly how he spoke, his origins were in trade. He's a mercantile man, isn't he? So he'd worked as a wine merchant. So that perhaps explains one. That's one reason why he's so keen on the Royal Navy, the idea of commerce, of Britannia ruling the waves.
- [06:53]
Daniel Defoe (reader)
And of course he loves a naval dockyard.
- [06:56]
Tom Holland
He absolutely does. And just to say as well that, you know, he, he had sailed the seas, he'd been a wine merchant. Dominic, you love a, a Portuguese wine depot in the 18th century, don't you? And Defoe was kind of always hanging out there. And so it's not surprising really that when he comes to Rochester, which he describes as having a castle and cathedral, he looks at it as being rather boring and old and Chatham, which is where the royal dockyards are, he is all over that. He thinks it's incredible. He thinks it's absolutely wonderful. And I think that that's why that passage describing Rochester and Chatham is absolutely brilliant for pinpointing this idea of Britain as being on the kind of cusp of incredible change.
- [07:37]
Theo
Yeah. So there's a world of kind of warehouses and dockyards and battleships and global trade and free trade and all that kind of stuff. And this is the sort of, this is the central axis, this is the hub of that world, isn't it? Rochester and Chatham, these kind of twin towns across the Medway. So Tom, give us a little bit of a tour d'. Horizon.
- [07:59]
Tom Holland
So the reason that we are here is obviously cause I've bullied you into doing it. You've put up a heroic three year rear guard action. But at last we are here in Rochester, in Chatham.
- [08:09]
Theo
Do you know what, ladies and gentlemen, when I look at Tom's notes, and now that I'm here on site, I could not be more excited. I'm absolutely agog with excitement. There are so many delights to come in this episode. There's Dickens, there's naval stuff, there might be a mention of Horatio Nelson. There's people wrestling on the floor of a chapel or something. It is probably the most exciting, the most action packed, the most blood soaked and in many ways the most moving episode that we've ever done on. The Rest is history.
- [08:37]
Tom Holland
The reason that I wanted to do it is that I've been walking the Saxonshaw Way, which is a kind of national route that follows the coastline of Kent, which for those people not familiar with the geography of England, is the bit in the southeast that sticks out into the sea. And I, I realized coming here that Rochester High street becomes Chatham High Street. And I felt that the, the way in which you go from kind of where we've got an Iron Age hill fort, we've got a, a Roman bridge, we've got an Anglo Saxon cathedral, we've got a Norman castle, and yet you end up with Chatham Docks, this kind of great nerve center of British imperial expansion. I, I am making the pitch that this is the most historic street in.
- [09:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
England, surely the world, Tom.
- [09:24]
Theo
No.
- [09:24]
Tom Holland
Well, I think in Britain you can make a case for the Royal Mile in Edinburgh, which has Holyrood and Edinburgh Castle and the grave of Adam Smith and all kinds of things like that. But this work, if you want a sense of the sweep and span and process of change that manifests itself through English history. Rochester High Street. Chatham High street, if you think of it as a single road, I mean, is absolutely fantastic. And you, as Defoe says, Rochester is all about the kind of traditional England of tourist brochures. Chatham is about energy and industry and transformation. And you could say, I think, that in the 18th and 19th centuries, it's a kind of cross between the Pentagon and Silicon Valley.
- [10:07]
Theo
And Chatham right now. I mean, it's retained that reputation, hasn't it, Tom, as a glittering cosmopolitan on the front line of technological and social change?
- [10:17]
Tom Holland
No, I fear not. So the Chatham dockyards shut in 1984. And I think it would be fair to say that if you're an enthusiast for vape shops or possibly tattoo parlours, Chatham High street now is very much the place to go.
- [10:34]
Theo
I actually love both of those things. So it's great.
- [10:37]
Tom Holland
It's probably not at the cutting edge of, of naval technology now in the way that it used to be. So I think it's fair to say that Chatham has seen happier days. And in that, again, of course, it's an exemplar of British history, because obviously Britain is not the great power that it was in the 18th and 19th centuries. And so if Chatham exemplifies the rise to global greatness of Britain, there's also a sense in which its current state tells you about Britain's relative decline.
- [11:05]
Theo
But before we do some history, why don't we have a little excursion into geography? We don't do enough geography on the rest is history, and Theo in particular is a passionate aficionado of geography. So Tom, talk to Theo and indeed the listeners about geography.
- [11:20]
Tom Holland
Yeah, well, geography of course, so important to the study of history because so often geography is historical destiny and that is definitely the case with Rochester and Chatham. So just to set the geographical scene for people who may not be au fait with North Kent. So we are just south of the Thames Estuary, the stretch of water that extends from London outwards into the North Sea. So we've got Essex to the north and we in Kent on the south coast of the Thames Estuary. And we are standing beside the Medway, which is a river that rises in Kent and flows northwards out into the Thames Estuary. And Rochester and Chatham both stand on the Medway and would not have come into existence without the Medway. So to talk about Rochester first, why is Rochester where it is? Basically because it is the lowest bridging point on the, on the River Medway. So essentially, if you want to get across the Medway, Rochester is the place to come. And in that its relationship to the Medway is equivalent to, to London's relationship to the Thames. And as with London, it's the Romans who build London Bridge. So here it's the Romans who build the first bridge over the Medway. But even before the Romans come, there is a trackway here that leads from, you know, Dover, the, the southeastern tip of Kent up towards the River Thames. And this is the fording point. So kind of, very much kind of Iron Age highway. And this is the highway that in due course will, will come to be called Watling street, one of the great roads of, of England.
- [13:06]
Theo
And so where is that, Tom? Is that right here?
- [13:08]
Tom Holland
Yeah, so, so that bridge that you can see there, if you're watching this on YouTube and essentially Chatham High Street, Rochester High street, that's all part of Watling Street. So essentially when the Romans under Julius Caesar land here in 55 and then 54 BC in 54 BC, Caesar advances towards the Thames, he would almost certainly have come this way. And again we can be pretty confident that in AD 43, when Claudius sends three legions here under Aulus Plautius, again they would have come here. And in fact we know that there is a great two day battle on the Medway, perhaps here, more likely a little bit further south. And Vespasian, who will go on to become the emperor, he crosses the river with his Batavian cavalry, who have this extraordinary ability to swim in full armour. So very exciting scene.
- [13:55]
Theo
It's unbelievably exciting and I cannot describe. It's such a shame that the listeners and even the people watching on YouTube can't actually be here because the air is electric with excitement, isn't it? To be here in this spot where it actually happened. Unbelievable history.
- [14:09]
Tom Holland
Well can I just crank up the excitement by revealing the name that the Romans give to the town that they built here with. It's Durobrivae, which means almost certainly stronghold by the bridge. I mean, couldn't be more exciting.
- [14:24]
Theo
And both Watling street and this bridge built by the Romans survive the Roman occupation, don't they? Basically because they're just so well located. So if you're going to Dover, if you are coming from Dover, if you're going to London, you're going to go this way.
- [14:39]
Tom Holland
Yes. So it's absolutely the kind, it's essentially it's the great road that links London and everything that lies beyond London to Dover and therefore to the continent.
- [14:48]
Theo
But enough of Rochester, there's been a lot of Rochester so far. Where's Chatham? Talk to me about Chatham.
- [14:53]
Tom Holland
Well the view of Chatham is on the other side of the keep where we're standing now. I'm looking at it now.
- [14:58]
Theo
It's gorgeous.
- [14:59]
Tom Holland
I think stunning. I think Dominic, we should get Harry to move the cameras and go over on the other side of the keep.
- [15:10]
Theo
So as you can see if you are watching on Spotify or on YouTube, we have now moved to the other side of the castle and the sense of drama, tension and jeopardy is becoming more acute with every moment for two reasons. Number one, the wind has now reached gale force levels and secondly, the staff of the castle are having to fight off a huge throng downstairs. Two different groups. One a group of rest is history club members who've just signed up@therestishistory.com and have heard that Tom Holland is here. They're very excited. They. And the other, a group of school children whom Tom has forbidden from coming to the top of the castle, ruining their outing, their day and quite possibly their love of history forever. But Tom, tell us, tell everybody watching on Spotify and YouTube why you have barred these children from coming to the top of the castle so that you can talk about Chatham.
- [15:59]
Tom Holland
Well, I'll try to do it over the sound of the sobbing of distraught 12 year old history fans. But it's important for us to be on the summit of this 100 foot Norman keep because we've come to the other side and now you can see the sweep of the Medway. And we talked about how the Medway is key to Rochester, it's also the key to Chatham. So Chatham is closer to the sea than Rochester, which means that it is much more convenient should you be sailing an enormous Tudorship, which is what starts to happen in the 16th century because England is expanding its global interests. Trade, piracy, ultimately conquest. And the, the Elizabethan court starts to realize that it's ideally situated between London and the kind of the shipping lanes that lead to the world. So in 1568 Elizabeth I formally institutes Chatham as a royal dockyard. And from that point on it plays a fundamental role in the growth of the Royal Navy and the emergence of first English and then British engagement with the broader world, which of course ultimately will result in the establishment of the British Empire. And, and obviously that is a process that takes centuries. And the emergence of Chatham as what it becomes in the 18th and into the 19th century to the most futuristic place on the face of the planet is a huge, huge, long term government sponsored plan of the kind, perhaps you might say that the British state has slightly forgotten how to engage in, but.
- [17:48]
Theo
Born as much of failure as success. Right, because where we are now, the Medway, is the location for one of the most disgraceful, perfidious, ultimately insignificant moments in world history, isn't it? Which is the Dutch raid on the Medway. They're bad people and they really let themselves down.
- [18:05]
Tom Holland
Yeah. So that's in June 1667 and it's part of a series of wars that England and the Dutch Republic are waging against each other. This is the second bout of war under the reign of Charles ii, who's just come back after his exile in the Netherlands. And we'll be hearing more about that in due course. And the Dutch and Charles II aren't getting on well at all in the 1660s. And as we say in 1667, the Dutch sail up the Medway and they find that the defences in place to protect the dockyards and all the ships that are at anchor there just aren't up to scratch. And they burn or capture 13 English ships. And Dominic, in a shocking display of thieving, they haul away HMS Royal Charles, which is the flagship of the English Navy. And disgracefully, it's still on display in the Reichsmuseum to this day.
- [18:59]
Theo
Do you want to know what Daniel Defoe said?
- [19:01]
Tom Holland
Yeah, tell me what he said.
- [19:02]
Theo
I know you like a bit Daniel Defoe. He had pungent views about this.
- [19:05]
Daniel Defoe (reader)
He said this alarm gave England such a sense of the consequence of the River Madway and of all the docks and yards.
- [19:12]
Theo
Dominic, this alarm, he changed his voice because he tore the countries it picked up Different. It picked up different accents. He said this alarm gave England such a sense of the consequence of the River Medway and of all the docks and yards at Chatham, and of the danger the Royal Navy lay exposed to there, that all these doors which were open then are locked up and sufficiently barred since that time. And tis not now in the power of any nation under heaven. Nice. And I don't know what happened there, though they should be masters at sea, unless they were masters at land too, at the same time, to give us such another affront. I don't actually know what that last bit means because I was just so distracted by the accent. What does he mean?
- [19:50]
Tom Holland
What he means is that the raid on the Medway was such a shock to the British state that absolutely impregnable defences were put in place all the way along the line of the Redway up to Chatham, and particularly at the mouth of the estuary going into the Medway. And essentially he's saying that even if naval supremacy were to pass from Britain, people still wouldn't be able to force their way in. And the only conceivable way in which Chatham could be destroyed would be if there was a land invasion. And Defoe is right, because Chatham stands impregnable throughout the Seven Years War, throughout the Napoleonic Wars. And we talked in our episodes on Nelson about how Napoleon's plan for England, if he could only get his troops across, was to march straight on Chatham and destroy it. I mean, it would be the equivalent of knocking out, I don't know, a kind of nuclear defence system or something like that today. And it survives the First World War, it survives the Second World War and throughout those conflicts and also throughout the long decades of peace in the 19th century. Chatham, I guess, is both the symbol and the fulcrum of Britain's role as a great global power. So.
- [21:01]
Theo
So before that, Tom, just quickly. Cause the school children are fighting their way up the stairs. Britain was of course herself part of a great empire and it was a kind of node in the imperial network of the Roman Empire. And actually we've been looking down at Watling street and the Great Bridge, haven't we just say a little bit more about that bridge? Cause you love that bridge.
- [21:18]
Tom Holland
Yeah. So as you said, the first bridge over the Medway, probably a pontoon bridge, and then the Romans develop it with great stone piers and kind of wooden planks across it. And that bridge endures well after the collapse of of Roman power. And it's there probably up until 8th or 9th centuries when it gets rebuilt again. And the reason that it's so important, as we said, it's the quickest way to get from, from Dover, which is the shortest crossing point from the continent up to London. And so it's not surprising that in the wake of the Roman withdrawal, Rome makes contact again with what's become Anglo Saxon England, not with military means, but with spiritual means. When at the end of the 6th century, St. Augustine arrives with a band of monks to convert the pagan Anglo Saxons. And his original plan is to get to London and establish an archbishopric there. But they don't because London is kind of hostile territory. So famously they stop in Canterbury and that's why the head of the Church of England is in Canterbury to this day. And that is where the first cathedral in Anglo Saxon England is built. But the second Anglo Saxon Cathedral, which is founded in 604, is down there from where we are standing. And it's founded in, in Rochester by a guy called Justus who, like Augustine is from Rome. And it's incredibly old. I mean, Defoe says it's, it says it's not very interesting, but it, I mean it is interesting in the sense that, you know, this takes us right the way back to the earliest days of, of the Roman Church in, in England, back to the age of Gregory the Great. And I, you know, I find it very moving. You love a sense of a living link.
- [23:08]
Theo
Yeah, you love that. I do. It was given to Odo, a buyer, by William the Conqueror. No.
- [23:13]
Tom Holland
Yeah. So. So Anglo Saxon England comes to, to an end with the Norman Conquest. And in our episode on that, we talked about how William from Hastings gave, goes to, to Dover and captures it and then goes to London and he comes via Rochester. So he sees that it's an absolutely kind of crucial place to seize. And so he, his, his half brother Odo, who is a bishop but very fond of fighting. So famously, you know, as a bishop you're not allowed to shed blood. So he kills people with a, with a club or a mace. And William gives Rochester as a bishopric to Odo. But Odo is, he's a very bad man. He, he is very treacherous and he gets chucked out. And so William gives it to this remarkable man who is called. It's not Gandalf, it's Gundal, but quite similar. And he has a slightly, you know, Gandalf esque role in, in William's career because he's a man who, who achieves extraordinary things. He's very as, he's very, very smart, very proficient at creating things. So He's a great architect, he's a great engineer. And it's Gandalf who builds the White Tower in London, which becomes the kind of the basis for the Tower of London. And in 1083, he starts work here in Rochester on renewing the Anglo Saxon cathedral that had basically kind of fallen to pieces. It was very decrepit. Not much of what he actually built survives, except for a place called Gundulph's Tower, which annoyingly, we can't actually see from here anyway. I mean, people are interested in gold elf. You can still see his tower.
- [24:50]
Theo
So this is great podcasting. It really is.
- [24:53]
Tom Holland
And it gets remodeled throughout the, throughout the Middle Ages. It has a particularly bad time in the 13th century when King John, England's worst king, loots it. And then Simon de Montfort, the self styled father of the English Parliament, he loots it as well. And I think there's always a sense that it's, it's a little bit shabby. That's how Pepys described it in the 16th century. We heard Defoe saying it was ancient but not extraordinary. And again, I mean, I think that's.
- [25:22]
Theo
Kind of fair, but pick out some highlights. So there's a nice crypt.
- [25:25]
Tom Holland
There's a crypt. So that was built by Gandalf. So Gandalf fans can see that as well as his tower.
- [25:30]
Theo
You're excited about the great west door, aren't you? Very excited. And it's got justice.
- [25:35]
Tom Holland
And someone else, King Ethelbert, he welcomed Augustine and his missionaries to Kent.
- [25:39]
Theo
And there's another lovely ceiling with some green men. You love a green man. But most of all, the thing that you were telling me, which I found actually quite moving, you said one of the most. Something that had brought you closer to the dimension of the supernatural than ever before, was you went, in 2019, you played mini golf in the center of the cathedral.
- [25:59]
Tom Holland
Yes. So in 2019, following in the footsteps of Saint justice and Bishop Gundolf, the cathedral authority set up a mini golf course in the nave of the cathedral.
- [26:11]
Theo
Well, can I tell people what you. So Tom texted me after he played golf in the cathedral and he said, dominic, while playing adventure golf, I really felt that I, I reflect, I reflected on the bridges that need to be built in our own lives and in the world today.
- [26:28]
Tom Holland
And Dominic, do you know what's amazing about that reflection that I had is that a few days later, the Diocese of Rochester put out a message saying that we hope that while playing adventure golf, visitors will reflect on the bridges that need to be built in their own lives and in our world today.
- [26:44]
Theo
So yet again, the Diocese of Rochester has been hacking our texts. Unbelievable. So, on that bombshell, Tom, let's just move on very quickly to talk about Rochester Castle before we descend and allow the school children up here tell me about the history of Rochester Castle. So this is what, Norman originally?
- [27:00]
Tom Holland
Yeah. So Defoe, in that bit you read, I mean, he was very rude about the cathedral, perhaps not unfairly, but he said that the, the castle was just a ruin, which I. I mean, we're standing up here and you can see it's clearly not a ruin.
- [27:12]
Theo
It.
- [27:13]
Tom Holland
We've got a, a sign there saying it's unsafe for humans. 100 foot drop beneath. Generally, this, I mean, this is very, very impressive structure. And it's not surprising because where you have a very important river crossing, you want to have a very strong defensive system so that you can keep control of it. And so it's not surprising that, as you say, yes, it is William who builds the first castle here, because that's what the Normans are doing. And again, he gives the, you know, he's given the cathedral to Odo. He also tells Odo to build a castle, which Odo does. It's made of wood. But when Odo gets chucked out for behaving badly and treacherously towards his half brother, he hands the responsibility for the castle over to Bishop Gandalf. And we've said how Gundolf is a tremendous architect, a tremendous engineer. He gets to work building a castle out of stone masonry, probably one of the first stone castles to be built by the Normans after the conquest. And it's because of that I was just reading up in the Bodleian before we came up here, that Gundulf apparently is recognized by the corps of Royal engineering as the man who established them. So they kind of trace a line of continuity all the way back to, through the Middle Ages, back to Gandalf. And that, I guess in part is due to the reputation of the Tower of London, but also due to this, because although the keep where we're standing now was built in the 12th century, the walls are Gundulf's. And this keep is, I mean, is amazing. When you come into Rochester on the train, you can see it kind of looks looming up. I think it's the, the tallest keep in England, one of the tallest keeps in the whole of. Of. Of Europe. And again, it was built by not just a bishop, but by an archbishop. So Rochester got given to the archbishop Rick of Canterbury in the 12th century.
- [29:07]
Theo
We've had it in the show before. It's been in the rest is history.
- [29:10]
Tom Holland
It has so featured in our episode on the. On the Peasants Revolt, misnamed, but you know, this great rebellion of, of, of people in, in Essex, but also in Kent. And when the, the rebels want to march on London, they have to seize the castle first because it's the great key to the road that leads to London. And they manage to storm the castle and they capture the castellan, the guy in charge of it, and they take him hostage. And when they get to London and they want to negotiate with Richard II and his government, the castellan of Rochester Cathedral is the guy that they use to communicate between the rebels and the royal authorities.
- [29:50]
Theo
And basically through Rochester Castle's history, loads of big names have been here, haven't they? So King John of France, when he was captured by the Black Prince, he was brought through Rochester, made a donation to the cathedral.
- [30:02]
Tom Holland
Yes, that's nice. Henry V, after returning in triumph from Agincourt, you know, he has to get to Calais, crosses to Calais, rides the great road up to London and passes through Rochester. And he is not the last king to make a memorable procession through Rochester because there is another one who has left a real mark on the city. We can't see that mark that he left from up here. So I think we should wind our way down the stairs past the sobbing school children and allow them to come up here to the top. And we will go down and go to this site which commemorates the arrival in Rochester in 1660 of Charles II.
- [30:51]
Theo
Tom Restoration House, Rochester, that's where we are right now. An absolutely gorgeous example of 17th century architecture. We've just been shown around by the owner, Jonathan Wilmot. Amazing artworks, furniture and whatnot that you can see if you're watching on Spotify or on YouTube.
- [31:11]
Dominic Sandbrook
But why are we here?
- [31:13]
Tom Holland
Well, as you say, an amazing 17th century house, origins going back to late 15th century, 16th century, all kind of patched together. So Pevsner rather rudely described it as being all highly peculiar and undisciplined, but I think it's unbelievably atmospheric. Very different vibe to being on top of a Norman castle. But we are here because the most famous person who stayed here was Charles ii, who had been in exile throughout the Restoration. Cromwell dies, people don't know what to do. So they say, well, let's try and bring Charles II back. So he lands in Dover, he's been staying in the Dutch Republic. Now he's back in English soil and he's processing towards London. And he spends the night of 28th of May 1660 here. And the next morning he gets up, it's his birthday, and he goes off into London. And so hence. Hence the name Restoration House.
- [32:05]
Theo
But there's a brilliant literary connection, isn't there? And a connection with one of Rochester's, one of this area's favorite sons. Because am I not right in saying that Charles Dickens used this house where we're sitting right now, as the inspiration for Satis House, which is, of course Ms. Havisham's house in his novel Great Expectations.
- [32:23]
Tom Holland
I think for the purposes of this podcast, we can say 100% this was the inspiration.
- [32:29]
Theo
It has said that.
- [32:30]
Tom Holland
No, no. Dickens was seen leaning on a. Kind of. On a. Looking in at it while writing Great Expectations. I think we can say 100% and it actually, for those who are looking on YouTube or Spotify, if you imagine this setting covered in cobwebs and a mouldering wedding cake in the background, I think you can absolutely imagine Ms. Havisham jilted at the altar in her decayed wedding dress, kind of gliding around like a ghoul. Poor Pip, you know, the little blacksmith's boy, feeling very coarse and sorry for himself.
- [33:02]
Theo
Well, Great Expectations very close to my heart, Tom, because I want the school public speaking and reading competition four years in a row with the opening of Great Expectations.
- [33:12]
Tom Holland
Four years in a row.
- [33:13]
Theo
Four years in a row, the same reading. God, joyless.
- [33:15]
Tom Holland
Were you allowed to do that?
- [33:16]
Dominic Sandbrook
Not really.
- [33:17]
Theo
It was considered against the spirit, but not the letter of the law.
- [33:20]
Tom Holland
It really does seem like cheating by.
- [33:22]
Theo
About the third or fourth time. The head of English said, you're really ruining this for everybody else with this re. With this reading that is unbeatable because it's such a brilliant reading.
- [33:31]
Tom Holland
But you must be excited then to be here.
- [33:33]
Theo
Oh, yeah. I mean, but, you know, you come home. That's the way I roll, Tom. That's the way I. That's the way I operate. If I can. If I can win and suck all the pleasure out of it for other people, so much the better. Let's talk about Dickens.
- [33:45]
Tom Holland
The reason that he's kind of hanging out here gazing at the windows.
- [33:48]
Theo
Yeah.
- [33:48]
Tom Holland
Is because he actually had a house just outside Rochester, the other side of the Medway, which was called Gad's Hill Place.
- [33:56]
Theo
Yeah.
- [33:56]
Tom Holland
And he lived there for the last 14 years of his life. And he absolutely loved Rochester. Basically, everywhere you go in Rochester, you see Dickens. Illusions. So restaurants, cafes, whatever.
- [34:07]
Theo
We've just been to the cafe. Cafe, yeah.
- [34:10]
Tom Holland
And there are kind of little signs saying Dickens, you know, this house was where so and so lived or whatever. And Gad's Hill, the house outside Rochester where he lived, he got given a Swiss chalet by one of his friends and it kind of arrived like an IKEA pack in various boxes. And he want. Dickens wanted to assemble it at a viewpoint where he could look out at the sea. And so the bottom of his garden there was a quite a busy road, so he dug a tunnel under the road and then he assembled the Swiss chalet on the far side of the road so that in the second floor where he had his study, he could look out at the sea and be inspired by it. And that chalet, apparently is still. You can still see it just off Rochester High Street. So if you like Dickens, I mean, there's no end of Dickensian fun facts here. And the other famous thing associated with Dickens here is that it's the setting for his last novel, which he never completed. The Mystery of Edwin Drood and the opium addict and cathedral organist John Jasper, who almost certainly is the murderer of Edwin Drude. Or is it Edwin Drew dead? Who knows? He lived on. On one of the gates that's just below the castle where we've been. And the Rochester in Edwin Drood is called Cloisterham. And the Dickens description of it is very similar to Defoe, so he says, a city of another and a bygone time is close to him. All things in it are of the past. So there's that sense of Rochester as a place where, you know, the history of England is invested, the layers of history. But as Dickens also knew, the same cannot be said of Chatham. And he knew Chatham very well because he had spent the formative years of his childhood there.
- [35:52]
Theo
And that's because his father, John Dickens, had worked as a clerk there, hadn't.
- [35:56]
Dominic Sandbrook
He, in the Naval pay Office.
- [35:58]
Theo
And so Dickens lived there from what, the age of 5 to the age of 11?
- [36:01]
Tom Holland
Yes. And. And thought it was wonderful.
- [36:03]
Theo
Yeah.
- [36:04]
Tom Holland
Had beaut. Kind of incredible childhood memories of it. Thought it was amazing. And then Years later, in 1860, when he was 48, he came back and, you know, it was his first visit to Chatham since he'd been a boy. And he wrote up about it expressing essentially his disappointment that it wasn't quite as amazing as he remembered it. And he was so disappointed. And listeners to this PODC will be thrilled to know this, that he called Chatham Dullsborough. So maybe we could use that as a title.
- [36:30]
Theo
Yeah.
- [36:31]
Tom Holland
For this episode. So. But. But Then, after a day touring Chatham, AKA Dulsborough, he left in a slightly more benignant mood. So he wrote, when I went alone to the railway to catch my train, I was in a more charitable mood with DBRA than I had been all day. And yet in my heart, I had loved it all day too. Ah, who was I that I should quarrel with the town for being changed to me when I myself had come back? So changed to all my early readings and early imaginations dated from this place, and I took them away. So full of innocent construction and guileless belief, and I brought them back so worn and torn, so much the wiser and so much the worse.
- [37:12]
Theo
Oh, Tom, that. That's lovely. That's a lovely reading. And actually that inspires me to. To go to Chatham. So I think we should head off from Restoration House. I have to say, what an amazing house this is and how royally we've been looked after. I actually, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say I don't think I've.
- [37:28]
Dominic Sandbrook
Ever been to a location with the.
- [37:30]
Theo
Rest Is History, that I have enjoyed more and that will live in my memory for longer than Restoration House.
- [37:36]
Tom Holland
Well, do you know, I'm sat here looking at you. You're in a magnificent period armchair. Behind you is a ticking grandfather clock. I kind of think you should have this vibe for every recording of the Rest Is History.
- [37:47]
Theo
I think I kind of do already.
- [37:48]
Tom Holland
No, I don't think you do quite.
- [37:50]
Theo
Oh, disappointing.
- [37:51]
Tom Holland
But anyway, talking of positive vibes, let's head off to Chatham High Street.
- [38:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
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- [38:08]
Tom Holland
We all need that sometimes, and Uber knows it.
- [38:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
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- [38:18]
Tom Holland
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Dominic Sandbrook
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- [38:29]
Tom Holland
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- [38:42]
Dominic Sandbrook
Now, Thomas, you know, in the Middle Ages, it could take you years if you're a monk. To create a manuscript, you'd have to copy it out word by word. And then after all that, the margins would be ready and you'd put all kind of decorative elements and all kinds of gilt and stuff in the margins and it would look fantastic.
- [38:57]
Tom Holland
So it might take often years to finish, but the finished product would then last for centuries. And that is pretty much what the Folio Society does today. Only of course, with slightly less parchment and fewer quills.
- [39:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yes, the Folio Society takes some of the greatest works ever written. Things like George Orwell's 1984 or the the quests in JRR Tolkien or Frank Herbert's Dune. And their team of editors and designers and artisans, they craft books that are so beautiful, they're like works of art in their own right.
- [39:32]
Tom Holland
So each one is carefully designed with slip cases, award winning illustrations and covers that honor the stories inside. It doesn't just protect them.
- [39:43]
Dominic Sandbrook
So if, like me and like Tom, you think that a book should look as good as it reads, then the Folio Society very much speaks your language.
- [39:52]
Tom Holland
Explore the world's most loved stories in the most beautiful form, only@folioSociety.com that is.
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Dominic Sandbrook
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- [40:38]
Theo
Welcome back to the Rest Is History. And very excitingly, we have now moved from Rochester to Chatham. Tom, let's walk up this lovely little slope here and discuss why you've brought us here.
- [40:49]
Tom Holland
Well, Dominic, if you look here, it reads Gundol Road. So we are on Gundol Road. Gundol very much friend of the show, the founder of the Royal Engineers, William I's. Go to Bishop, the guy who designed Rochester Cathedral and the castle, and he got his hands on Chatham as well. Because although Chatham is very much a kind of 18th century, 19th century place, that's its heyday. There was a village here in the Middle Ages and Gundel founded a hospital for the poor and leprous. And they would be brought along the river, which is just down there. And then there would be kind of special passageways that would thread up from the river to bring them to the hospital because nobody wanted to come in touch with the leper and only the leprous were allowed to go up these. The hospital is long gone, but there is one remainder of it and it is this chapel that we're looking at here. So the front of the Chapel clearly very Victorian. This is by Sir Gilbert Scott who designed the Albert Memorial and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and these kind of great monuments of neo Gothic Victoriana. But if we go round the back we will find a bit of the original 12th century chapel. And I like to think that even though we are here in the heart of Chatham, the swirl of 21st century Britain, maybe inside this chapel there is a little haven, a little reminder of the age of faith and we will see what we find inside. You can see this entrance, this, the eastern section. There are still bits of the original 12th century chapel. So if we go in through here we can see, you know, I, I, I imagine that there'll be a kind of a mood of cloistered peace maybe amid the, the hurley burley of Chatham, a reminder of the spirituality of the Middle Ages. And I think it'll be very moving for people. So let's go and see what's going on. So this is, this is maybe not quite what I was expecting. So we should, we should maybe describe for people what we're seeing.
- [43:15]
Theo
This to me very much speaks of medieval spirituality. There are about four people writhing and grappling on the ground. So if you can't, if you're not watching on Spotify or YouTube, that's what I'm looking at. Basically somebody's thighs and they're wrapped around.
- [43:30]
Tom Holland
Another person's neck and behind, behind them are two signs reading Granite Gym and this ancient sanctuary, this repository of medieval spirituality seems to have become a gym. So I like to think that this probably isn't what Bishop Gundolf wanted, but whatever, yeah, it's progress.
- [43:51]
Theo
I'm sure he did a bit of.
- [43:52]
Tom Holland
Wrestling with Christ here, but Dominic, just to say that is the. So Harry, behind you, that is what remains of the 12th century chapel.
- [44:02]
Theo
So basically for those people not watching, Tom is pointing at a bit of wall, the lovely, lovely window. I don't know what else to say really. Tom, do you want to describe to this?
- [44:12]
Tom Holland
Well, what I will say is that there aren't people kind of wrestling underneath the, under that. So no, but they're really showing a bit of respect.
- [44:17]
Theo
There is a sofa, there's a broken till. So that's good.
- [44:21]
Tom Holland
So anyway, that's progress.
- [44:27]
Theo
So we have crossed the street and we've come a little bit further forward in time. So we're now standing for those people who are not watching on YouTube or Spotify. We are standing in front of some lovely little brick almshouses and Tom, these were built in 1592 and they're associated with a very famous name in kind of Tudor seafaring history.
- [44:48]
Tom Holland
Yes. So this is the hospital of Sir John Hawkins in Chatham. It is the single oldest Royal Navy charity, the oldest Royal Navy hospital, and it was founded by Sir John Hawkins, who was a cousin of Sir Francis Drake. He was first the treasurer of Elizabeth's Navy, then its controller. He played a key role in establishing not just Chatham, but the English Navy as a force to be reckoned with. And in his will, he set aside some property to endow a hospital, which makes him sound one of history's good guys. But there is a slight complication which is hinted at on the. The website for the Hospital of Sir John Hawkins, where it's. It confesses that a lot of the money that Sir John Hawkins made, which enabled him to fund this hospital, was made in the slave trade. And so this disavowal is made. Although not out of step with the societal norms of his time, the governors fully acknowledge the abhorrent and brutal nature of this vile activity and regret Sir John's involvement profoundly. And then there's a kind of big. However, he was an outstanding seaman, navigator, naval administrator and benefactor of naval veterans. And both of those things are clearly true. And so this is absolutely the kind of place that focuses some of the ambivalences and complexities of Britain's.
- [46:18]
Theo
Everybody loves focusing on ambivalence. And he's a great Spanish Armada man, isn't he? All of that.
- [46:24]
Tom Holland
He's. I mean, he's rough speeds.
- [46:27]
Theo
Yeah.
- [46:28]
Tom Holland
You know, playing bowls, all of that. Yes. I mean, he's, you know, he. He is one of the great. Kind of. The Victorians loved him. They loved the kind of idea that the sea dogs of Under Elizabeth I had been the prototype for. For Britain's name.
- [46:41]
Theo
And this place had a tremendous history of sea doggery or sea dogging, didn't it?
- [46:44]
Tom Holland
Because there's a lot of sea dogging going on here.
- [46:47]
Theo
They had two veterans of the Battle of Copenhagen who were here and a veteran of Trafalgar lived here, right?
- [46:53]
Tom Holland
Yes. A guy called Henry Dawkins was. Was here. Now, you said that this was built in the Tudor period. These are not Tudor buildings. So actually it. It got rebuilt in 1789.
- [47:07]
Theo
Right.
- [47:08]
Tom Holland
And then it got refurbished again in the 1980s when it got opened by the Queen Mother.
- [47:14]
Theo
Oh, lovely. So.
- [47:16]
Tom Holland
So you've got John Hawkins, you've got redevelopment in the period of the French Revolution and you've got the Queen Mother. And I think that, Dominic, you'd agree that this is one of the many jewels of Chatham High street that's the.
- [47:28]
Theo
Rich tapestry of British history. Right.
- [47:30]
Tom Holland
But the exciting news is there are more jewels and I think we should.
- [47:34]
Theo
Go and look, so let's go. That was so weak. So a really weak clap there from Theo to start this, this new segment. Now, Tom, one of the things that we associate with dockland areas, of course, is pubs. And we are looking at two splendid historic pubs. So one of them is the North Foreland. And I just want to give people an impression of the forensic research that you've brought to this episode.
- [47:59]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [47:59]
Theo
So your notes say Nelson reputedly drank here, so that's great. So that definitely happened. So I read that it was rebuilt in 1912 and shut in 20. 2012. So amazing. Yeah.
- [48:10]
Tom Holland
So I bet you're glad you've seen that now. Imagine if you've been stuck in the Cotswolds all this time and you never.
- [48:15]
Theo
Got to see that. But a really amazing.
- [48:18]
Tom Holland
But, Dominic, there's more, isn't it?
- [48:20]
Theo
There's more.
- [48:21]
Tom Holland
You have not yet drunk your fill of the cup of historical delights that Chatham High street has to offer. So do you want to continue or.
- [48:30]
Theo
Are you laughing too much? No, I'm laughing too much, but I will continue. So opposite us is something called the Ship in and I read in Tom's notes, Thomas written the words, one of the oldest gay pubs in the country.
- [48:44]
Tom Holland
I think that's definitely true.
- [48:45]
Theo
But then his citation comes from Kent. I'm laughing so much I can't speak.
- [48:57]
Tom Holland
It's a very reputable source, very scholarly, peer reviewed. So do you want to read out.
- [49:03]
Theo
What it says online? Yeah, apparently. I feel like the word apparently is doing a lot of lifting there. It gets better, doesn't it? Apparently the bartender, the bartender's mate recently compiled the history of Rochester High street and proudly informed me, this is the writer from Kent Online, that the pub is more than 500 years old and Medway's oldest gay bar. Well, that's definitely true. Not only this, but he confidently declared that the purple dance bar on the left, complete with its brick look wallpaper, was the site of the first arrested conviction for buggery way back in the days of Henry viii. So apparently that is from According to the Barman's Mate. The Barman's Mate. But actually there's some serious history behind this. Much as I'm laughing about your ludicrous research, there's some serious history behind us that I'm hoping you've put an equal amount of effort into.
- [50:06]
Tom Holland
Well, actually, do you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna read from the foundation stone on this building. Which reads, this foundation stone was laid by Simon Magnus for a memorial synagogue in affectionate remembrance of his much lamented and only son, Lazarus, Simon Magnus, Esquire. So a synagogue on Chatham High street is a reminder of the fact that as well as pubs, what you expect to find, you know, Docklands and dockyards and all that kind of thing, is lots of people from overseas. And when the Jews were allowed back into England in the Mid 17th Century.
- [50:39]
Theo
By Oliver Cromwell, my friend of the.
- [50:40]
Tom Holland
Show, Oliver Cromwell, although not officially, but effectively one of the earliest communities outside London where Jews settled was, was in Chatham because of course, it was growing, it was provided links to all the other Jewish communities on the continent. And the first synagogue on this site was built in 1750. And the people who were able to fund it could do it because they were helping people in the Royal Navy who had captured prizes to then kind of sell them, to convert it into money and they would take a cut and that cut then enabled them to fund the first synagogue. But this particular synagogue opened in 1869 and it was, as the foundation said, it was built by the father of this guy, Simon Magnus, who had been a captain in the the 4th Kent Artillery Volunteers, and he'd also been a business partner of Isambard Kingdom Brunel, the great engineer, so, you know, Gundol Brunel, all the great engineers featuring in this story. And we mentioned earlier about the leper hospital and about how there are these paths that go from the river up to where the hospital was. And there was one of them that went along the west side of the synagogue. And so it's a kind of freehold of a strip of ground which remains kind of, you know, they couldn't buy it and they have to this day they have to pay a rent to use it of 5p per annum. So, again, a kind of fascinating link taking us back to the medieval origins.
- [52:13]
Theo
Yet more of the extraordinarily rich and vibrant history of this part of the world.
- [52:18]
Tom Holland
Yes, absolutely. And this synagogue is still going strong. And during both the wars, particularly in the Second World War, it provided a home for Jewish servicemen who passed through Chatham and were working here. So we've talked about Nelson, we've talked about the Second World War, and the obvious place in Chatham where Nelson and the Second World War could join is the naval dockyards, the royal dockyards. The reason that all these incredible treasures, Dominic, are lining Chatham High Street So I think that we should go there now.
- [52:54]
Theo
Let's do that right now. If you're watching this, you can see that we've moved location to somewhere very, very spectacular indeed. So, Tom, we have moved to Chatham's Royal Dockyard. And we're in the bowels of the dockyard in a place we'll reveal in a second. But so the dockyard is built in first, opens in 1567 and lasts for.
- [53:18]
Tom Holland
What, just 414 years. Wow. Okay. Yeah, it closes in 1984.
- [53:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
So you love this place.
- [53:24]
Theo
Now the irony is that when we first did. The rest is history. You hated the Royal Navy, you hated dockyards. I hated above all, you hated rope. So it's fitting that to apologize and to abase yourself, you have come to the roperie of the Royal Dockyard. But just talk to me about the Royal Dockyard before we get onto the roperie.
- [53:41]
Tom Holland
I do love the dockyard here in Chatham. And the reason for that, it's a, it's a phrase that Nam Roger, the great historian of the Royal Navy, expressed that the dockyards, Portsmouth, Chatham, places like that, are 19th century islands in an 18th century sea. And you actually did, you did a TV show here on H.G. wells. And I guess you came here because that sense of it is, has a science fiction quality. It's this idea of technology being ahead of the historical context because these are amazing places. These are where the most lethal killing machines on the face of the planet are developed, namely the ships of the Royal Navy, of which over the course of the 414 years, over 500 ships are built here, including the most famous of all, HMS Victory.
- [54:30]
Theo
Yeah. So Tom, our old friend Daniel Defoe had strong views about this place, didn't he? So I know you love a Daniel Defoe reading because you admire his accent so much.
- [54:38]
Daniel Defoe (reader)
He said the building yards, the docks, timber yard, the deal yard, the mast yard, the gun yard, the rope walks.
- [54:46]
Theo
And all the other yards and places set apart for the works belonging to.
- [54:50]
Daniel Defoe (reader)
The Navy are like a well ordered city.
- [54:52]
Theo
And though you see the whole place.
- [54:54]
Daniel Defoe (reader)
As it were, in the utmost hurry.
- [54:56]
Theo
Yet you see no confusion. Every man knows his own business.
- [55:00]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [55:01]
Theo
Now the thing is, he was talking about the rope walks and we are actually in the ropery, which, I mean, you talked about Nam Roger and this idea of this being the 19th century, in the 18th century, at its peak, this place, the Roperie, was probably the most futuristic, the most technologically industrially advanced place on the planet. Now the sublime irony of this is that when we started the podcast, you said there was Nothing you hated more than naval rope.
- [55:27]
Dominic Sandbrook
And yet you have chosen this place to do this.
- [55:31]
Theo
Basically this entire episode, in fact, probably the whole of the podcast has been building to this moment.
- [55:38]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [55:39]
Theo
So what is it about? Tell me about the Roperie.
- [55:41]
Tom Holland
I think it's one of the most amazing historic structures in Britain. It's a great monument to the age of Nelson, to the rise of the Royal Navy, to global supremacy. And as you say, it is a glimpse of the future. Built in the 1780s, 1790s, it is 1,140ft long. When it's built, it was the longest brick building in Britain. It is absolutely stupefying. And some of the machinery here, where they still make rope to this day, you can buy it around the corner. It dates back to 1806. So if you want a flavor of what it was that powered Chatham, powered this stretch of the Medway, powered the Royal Navy, this is the place to come.
- [56:35]
Theo
So in a way, Tom, this is where the Napoleonic wars were won. This is where the, the Pax Britannica of the 19th century was established. This is what's powering all that. The great dynamo, the Roperie, Chatham dockyard, the Royal Navy, the infrastructure, the sinews of Britain's greatness. And of course that continues all the way through to the middle of the 20th century. I think we should fast forward to the Second World War and we should go out of here and we should go to an equally exciting historical site which is a splendid ship.
- [57:09]
Tom Holland
Let's do that. Let's. And we will be ending this podcast by treading the metal boards of a British battleship.
- [57:23]
Theo
So, Tom, we've been on. So Tom, we've been on an epic journey, haven't we, through Rochester and Chatham. And now we've reached an earth shattering conclusion because we have come deep into the dockyard here at Chatham and we are on a Second World War battleship. So tell me a little about this ship and why you've chosen this and tell me a little bit about its story.
- [57:51]
Tom Holland
Okay. Well, you know that I love a Second World War battleship.
- [57:55]
Theo
Yeah.
- [57:55]
Tom Holland
And to be more precise, I love a C class destroyer.
- [57:59]
Theo
Right.
- [57:59]
Tom Holland
Which is what this ship, HMS Cavalier, a name that I like to think Charles II would very much have approved of.
- [58:05]
Theo
Yeah, Prince Rupert, Charles I, they'd all love that.
- [58:07]
Tom Holland
They would all have loved it. That's what this is, a C class destroyer. What's your favorite kind of destroyer? What class?
- [58:16]
Theo
Probably B. Probably a B class.
- [58:18]
Tom Holland
Okay. But a C class is quite good.
- [58:20]
Theo
I like all destroyers and I. But I'd probably Rank top three, C, B, probably A.
- [58:25]
Tom Holland
Okay.
- [58:26]
Theo
In that order.
- [58:26]
Tom Holland
And also I think also very nice is the color. So for those who can't see, it's kind of lovely turquoise and it blends in with the turquoise of the River Medway which is behind us.
- [58:36]
Theo
Gosh, that's what. So anyway, so it's a painterly eye.
- [58:41]
Tom Holland
It absolutely is. So this ship is, it was launched in the Second World War, it fought in Norway. It fought, it joined a convoy going to the Soviet Union and back. You say it surely she, she and then she sailed out to join in the final stages of the war in the Pacific. So absolutely a reminder of Chatham's role in the Second World War. But I think that this ship is also a memorial to the decline of Chatham because this, this ship got decommissioned in the 1970s and Chatham gets decommissioned in 1984. And really with the closing of the docks, so much that had made chatham, chatham for 400 odd years ends. So in a sense where we are now is a reminder both of Britain's glory days in the Second World War, but also of the geopolitical and economic decline that followed. And in that sense I think this is a perfect place to conclude the journey, the odyssey that you, you were talking about. So we've gone from Arnhe Hill, Fort Roman Bridge and now we are in the 1980s.
- [59:51]
Theo
So in a very real sense, Tom, we've covered all English history, the story of, I was about to say one town, but really two towns. Rochester and Chatham.
- [59:57]
Tom Holland
Yeah, but joined by a single high street.
- [59:59]
Theo
Joined by a single high street. And let's not end on a downbeat note. No, because I feel what we've gained from this is a sense of the extraordinarily rich history of Chatham. But also I've learned. What have you learned, Dominic? I've learned that Chatham's not just a town, Tom, it's a community. And I think that's lovely. What about you?
- [60:17]
Tom Holland
Yeah, I can't argue with that. We've been welcomed with such hospitality on the streets.
- [60:23]
Theo
I think we've learned a lot from streets of Chatham. The people of Chatham probably more than the people listening to this podcast have learned from us.
- [60:31]
Tom Holland
No, I hope that they've learned something which is go to Rochester High street, walk down it, get to Chatham High street, then come to the docks and, and you couldn't be happier that all of, all of, all of English history is there.
- [60:41]
Theo
On that shocking bombshell, we should probably say goodbye to Chatham, goodbye to Rochester and goodbye to the listeners. Goodbye, Goodbye.
- [60:58]
Expedia Advertiser
Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a 4L jug. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.
- [61:09]
Tom Holland
Oh, come on.
- [61:10]
Expedia Advertiser
They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.
- [61:20]
Tom Holland
Whatever.
- [61:21]
Expedia Advertiser
You were made to outdo your holidays. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.