Tom Holland (2:45)

the temples, from all buildings in the great places.

Dominic Sandbrook (2:49)

From walls of pleasure and roofs of omen, from floors of feasting and ceilings of death. Bring him the gold of Quito and Pachamakakak.

Tom Holland (3:00)

Bring him the gold of Cuzco and Coricancha. Bring him the gold of Vilcanotta. Bring him the gold of Colai, of Amareus and Arequipa.

Dominic Sandbrook (3:13)

Bring him the gold of the Chimu. Put up a mountain of gold and free your son from his prison of clouds.

Tom Holland (3:23)

So that was Christopher Plumber playing Atahualpa, emperor of the Incas, in Peter Schaffer's play the Royal Hunt of the sun, which we've been hearing a lot of in this series. And Atahualpa in that scene is summoning his people to one of the most memorable endeavors in the whole of world history. And it's the kind of scene that maybe as a child, you have a book of world history and you read about it and you think, wow, that's mad. That couldn't possibly have happened. And that is exactly what happened to me. I had a book of world history, and there was Atahualpa with Francisco Pizarro in a kind of very cool hat and a beard. They were chatting away, and they're in this room and there's this kind of piles of gold mounting up, and on the room, there is a white line that's been drawn around it. And you realize that Atohalper has to get enough gold to reach that white line. And Dominic, I have never forgotten it, because the jeopardy is immense, isn't it?

Dominic Sandbrook (4:20)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (4:21)

If he doesn't get enough gold to reach that white line, he's gonna die. If he does get enough gold to

Dominic Sandbrook (4:27)

reach that white line, well, what then? We will find out in today's episode, won't we? Yeah, you're not wrong. This is exactly it. I had this encyclopedia of world history as a child, maybe the same one that you did.

Tom Holland (4:39)

Is it the R.J. umstead book of World History?

Dominic Sandbrook (4:42)

It probably was, actually, but he wrote all history books in the 1970s, didn't he? In the 1960s and 70s. So, yeah, it's a brilliant book. And there was this picture, and there's this bloke gesturing at the wall, and they're filling it with kind of golden llamas and stuff like, piling up. And, you know, if he fills the room, the Spanish will let him go. This is in Cacamarca, where he's been taken prisoner. And if he doesn't fill the room, they will garrotte burn him or garrotte him. Yeah. And basically, you can't wait to find out what happens next. And you know what? This really happened. And this is the story we're telling in today's episode.

Tom Holland (5:17)

Brilliant.

Dominic Sandbrook (5:18)

So let's remind ourselves where we got to in the story the fall of the Incas so people will remember. Francisco Pizarro and his fellow conquistadors had arrived in Cajamarca in November 1533, and they'd hold up. Waiting for this bloke Atahualpa, the emperor of the Incas. He's been fighting a civil war against his brother Huascar.

Tom Holland (5:35)

And Huascar is in a cage, isn't he, at this point being brought from Cusco to where Atahualpa is.

Dominic Sandbrook (5:41)

Exactly. Huascar has been taken prisoner. So Atahualpa had won the civil war, effectively. Now Atualpa made this grand entrance to the town square which we described last time. There's this confrontation with the Dominican friar Vicente de Balverde. And then the Spanish charged into the square and they took him prisoner and they killed all his men. And we ended with this bonkers scene where he's taken in the dressed in new clothes to have dinner with Pizarro

Tom Holland (6:05)

and then to curl up with him for the night.

Dominic Sandbrook (6:07)

Yeah. And then spend the night with him.

Tom Holland (6:08)

And you suggested Pizarro was a snorer, which would just make things even worse, wouldn't it?

Dominic Sandbrook (6:13)

He's definitely a snorer. Pizarro's in his 50s, he's kind of tall, he's broad, he's burly. I mean that's a snorer, definitely.

Tom Holland (6:22)

Well, I think, I mean that description applies to me as well. I don't think I'm a snorer.

Dominic Sandbrook (6:25)

You're not burly. I mean no one's burly.

Tom Holland (6:29)

Very broad chested.

Dominic Sandbrook (6:29)

In a million years, people watching on

Tom Holland (6:32)

YouTube will be able to see that.

Dominic Sandbrook (6:33)

See how burly Tom is. Exactly. So we ended with nightfalling the carrion crows, feasting on the bodies of the dead and so on and so forth. And let's pick up straight away, on the morning of 17 November 1533, Atahualpa wakes and he's in a state of shock. Clearly Pizarro has got up first without disturbing him because he's taken in cup of tea. Yeah. To see Pizarro and the other Spanish captains. We found him full of fear, thinking that we were going to kill him.

Tom Holland (6:58)

Well, duh.

Dominic Sandbrook (6:59)

Yeah. And Pizarro says to Atahualpa this amazing thing, he says, don't be sorrowful. He says, we Christians, we've gone to many countries, we've met many mighty rulers and one way or another we've made them all our friends and vassals. So you shouldn't be shocked that we've captured you. I don't know whether that's any consolation.

Tom Holland (7:15)

Well, I suppose it kind of is because it suggests they're not going to kill him.

Dominic Sandbrook (7:18)

Well, hold on. If Atahualpa had Said, well, who's the most famous person you've treated in this manner? And they'd say, well, Montezuma. At that point, his face might fall a little when he discovered the fate of the emperor of the Aztecs.

Tom Holland (7:29)

Fair point.

Dominic Sandbrook (7:30)

So Atahualpa says, you're going to kill me? And Pizarro says, no, no, no, we're Christians, so that means we don't kill people in cold blood. We will see in this episode how true that is. And then, I think, disastrously for the Incas generally. Atahualpa sends a message to his army and he says, do not flee, do not resist. Wait for my orders. I'm not dead. I'm in the power of the Christians. Later that morning, Pizarro's lieutenant, Hernando de Soto, who's described as swashbuckling or dashing. Posh, yes. And he ends up in Arkansas or

Tom Holland (8:01)

thereabouts, looking for the fountain of youth.

Dominic Sandbrook (8:03)

Exactly. So Soto goes off to the camp of the Atahualpa army, which is about somewhere 70 or 80,000 strong, supposedly. So they're outside the city. They offer no resistance. When Soto turns up, they don't interfere with him at all. They just don't know what to do. They're completely bewildered. This has never happened before. These people, who might as well have come from the moon, have captured their emperor.

Tom Holland (8:25)

They.

Dominic Sandbrook (8:25)

They're just stunned. And actually following Atualpa's orders, which had clearly been drafted by the Spanish or interfered with by the Spanish, we're told that many of them dropped to their knees and made the sign of the cross, basically a sign of obedience to the Spaniards. So that's all great for Pizarro. Even better when Soto gets back to the town. Soto says, I found a lot of stuff in the camp and I brought it with me. 80,000 pesos worth of gold, 7,000 marks worth of silver, and 14 emeralds, to quote the Spanish. The gold and silver were in monstrous effigies, large and small dishes, pitchers, jugs, basins, large drinking vessels and various other pieces. Atahualpa said that this all came from his table service. So they've come back basically with Atahualpa's crockery. And it dawns on the Spanish, I think at this point, my God, these people place no value on gold and silver other than aesthetic. It's pretty. So these guys like it and bigwigs have it, but it has no monetary value to them because, of course, the Incas don't have money. And Atahualpa sees the Spanish eyes glittering with Excitement. And this gives him an idea. And this goes back to your reading at the beginning, Tom. He says, well, if you love this stuff so much, I mean, this is my crockery. I can give you much more of this if this means so much to you. And through these interpreters who are working for the Spanish, she says, I can give you more gold and silver than you could possibly dream of. And Pizarro says, well, how much? Exactly. And then this famous moment, Atahualpa, I can fill this room with gold as high as I can reach. And he sort of pretends to make a line on the wall with his hand. And the Spanish sources say the room measured 22ft long by 17ft wide, and it was to be filled to a white line halfway up its height, 8ft high. So, in other words, as high as Atahualpa can reach. And Atahualpa said he would fill it with gold jars, pots, tiles and other pieces. He would also fill the room twice over with silver, and he would do all this within two months. So there's a time element to this. There's a sort of elements of jeopardy. Pizarro can't believe this, and he calls in one of his secretaries, a guy called Francisco de Heres, and says, I want you to write this down, make a record. And then he says to Atalpa, great, if you do this, we will let you go. We will guarantee your life and you can go back off to your northern heartland of Quito in Ecuador and you can be king in the north there. And the Spanish are thinking, well, this is an amazing result. Basically, if Atahualpa can honour this, we'll get the gold. You know, because he's our prisoner and because people are bringing the gold, he'll be acquiescing in our overlordship. We'll turn him into our collaborator. We won't be attacked by his armies, and in the meantime, we can get reinforcements from Panama or even from Spain. Now, this is important because Atahualpa, I think, has no sense that the Spanish are the first of many. He thinks they are brigands, raiders, pirates.

Tom Holland (11:19)

Yeah.

Dominic Sandbrook (11:20)

I don't think it ever occurs to him, or indeed to any of the Incas, that more of these bearded men will come in their floating castles or whatever they call them.

Tom Holland (11:29)

But, I mean, that makes him sound very naive. Yeah, but you can understand why he would have no comprehension of what Europe is or any of that.

Dominic Sandbrook (11:37)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (11:37)

But you can see reasons why from his point of view, this is a shrewd policy, because, firstly, it requires The Spaniards to accept that he is a legitimate heir.

Dominic Sandbrook (11:47)

Yes.

Tom Holland (11:48)

Because if the Spaniards are using him as their mouthpiece, it's a kind of acknowledgment that he's the rightful emperor.

Dominic Sandbrook (11:54)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (11:55)

Also, he specified two months. It is actually going to take much longer. So there's a sense that he's spinning it out.

Dominic Sandbrook (12:01)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (12:01)

And also, if these messengers are going out, then they can communicate his wishes to his people and bring back messengers to him.

Dominic Sandbrook (12:11)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (12:12)

And also, over the process of time, he will start to target areas of the empire that he wants targeted. Because it's notable, isn't it, that he never once sends messengers up to Quito, up to his own areas. They're always going out to places that essentially, you know, he's targeted for destruction.

Dominic Sandbrook (12:31)

Yeah, exactly Right. He's still, I think a really important point actually, that you made there is. I think he is trapped by the context of the Civil War. Intellectually, he sees everything through the prism of his struggle with Huascar, of finishing off the Civil War and then cementing his control over the empire. And the Spanish are not exactly an irritation. They're more. They're obviously more than that.

Tom Holland (12:50)

But they're a factor, aren't they?

Dominic Sandbrook (12:52)

Yes, they're a factor. The wider story, as he sees it, is the Civil War, which he thinks the Spanish don't really understand. I think the Spanish think the Civil War is an incidental detail in their big story.

Tom Holland (13:04)

We will see who's right.

Dominic Sandbrook (13:05)

We will see who's right. So the orders are sent out across the empire. Send your gold and silver to Cajamarca. And in the meantime, Atahualpa settles down to wait with Pizarro and the other conquistadors. And again, it is very similar to the stories of Cortes and co with Montezuma. Their relations actually are not terrible. The Spanish are clearly fascinated by Atahualpa. They write long descriptions of him in their memoirs and chronicles and things. They're fascinated by his appearance and so on. So we know that he's probably in his early 30s. He's a big man. He's kind of an alpha male. He had a large face, handsome and fierce. His eyes reddened with blood. He spoke with much gravity. He made many lively arguments. He was a cheerful man, although unsubtle. And the unsubtlety is reflected in an entertaining way. So one of the conquistadors, Cristobal de Mea, records that Atahualva's favourite possession was the severed head of Attock, who was one of his brother's generals and I quote, its teeth were closed and held a silver spout. On top of the head was attached a golden bowl. Atahualpa liked to drink from it. When thinking about the war against his brother, his servants poured the chicha, that's a kind of beer made from maize, into the bowl and it came out through the spout. Would you drink from the Sephard head of one of your course? You would?

Tom Holland (14:23)

Yeah, I think I would, yeah.

Dominic Sandbrook (14:24)

So would I, yeah.

Tom Holland (14:25)

I mean, it's actually given me quite a few ideas, though.

Dominic Sandbrook (14:27)

There's some. Oxford College, isn't there, where they. It turned out recently I wrote a column about it in the Times. It turned out that they were drinking after senior common room dinners or something. They were drinking from the severed head of somebody that had been given to the college. Did you see this?

Tom Holland (14:41)

I didn't.

Dominic Sandbrook (14:42)

It was a skull and if you

Tom Holland (14:44)

got a skull, you might as well use it.

Dominic Sandbrook (14:45)

Do you know, I'm going to look this up. I can do some live research.

Tom Holland (14:48)

Has it been sent back for dignified burial?

Dominic Sandbrook (14:50)

Professor Dan Hicks, I think.

Tom Holland (14:52)

Of course, yes. He'd be very against that.

Dominic Sandbrook (14:55)

Yeah. Woke professor campaigned against it. Worcester College. Worcester College. And I wrote a column for the Times with the excellent headline, drinking from skulls is a noble tradition. Well, it is. It clearly is.

Tom Holland (15:09)

And Atahualpa is, you know, part of a proud Latin American tradition.

Dominic Sandbrook (15:13)

He is, and he's a bright fellow because actually we learned that one of the Spanish conquistadors said he's the most educated and capable Indian that's ever been seen to such an extent that he plays chess very well. So they taught him. Yeah, he sounds like a tremendous companion.

Tom Holland (15:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Dominic Sandbrook (15:28)

So Francisco Pizarro's page, who was a cousin of his, a teenager called Pedro, he wrote down an account of Atalpa's daily rituals, which is actually really interesting. AT would sit on this little stool and he was always attended by beautiful young women. They would bring him his food in golden bowls, he'd point at what he wanted and then they would feed him with their bare hands. And if he wanted to spit afterwards, he would spit into their hands and they would kind of, you know, hold out their cupped hands.

Tom Holland (15:56)

I mean, I think he's a kind of model for relaxed lifestyle.

Dominic Sandbrook (15:59)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (16:00)

Live your life the Inca way.

Dominic Sandbrook (16:02)

Yeah. Inca loungecore.

Tom Holland (16:05)

Well, so talking of Inca loungewear.

Dominic Sandbrook (16:09)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (16:10)

He has some interesting fashion materials, doesn't he?

Dominic Sandbrook (16:13)

He has these lovely soft tunics and robes made from the skin of vampire bats. And you do wonder whether Spanish is slightly Exaggerating here, but then there's this nice detail. So when he's worn anything or when he's eaten anything, they gather everything up and this includes basically the stuff that he's spat out and also even the sort of rushes that have been placed on the floor under his feet. And they put them in a special leather chest. And Pedro said. I asked why they kept all this. They told me it was in order to burn it. Anything touched by the ruler, the Son of the sun, was reduced to ashes and thrown to the wind, since no one else was allowed to touch it. I mean, even by the standards of Spanish royalty, he thought that was excessive. But it goes to a very important point, something that's very useful to the Spaniards, the absolute authority of the Sapa Inca, because by becoming Sapa Inca, you effectively become, are you a God? You're kind of adjacent to a God, I suppose you're an intermediary between the

Tom Holland (17:10)

dimensions of the earthly and the supernatural.

Dominic Sandbrook (17:12)

Dominic, to coin a phrase, exactly like the great speaker of Tenochtitlan, Montezuma had been in exactly the same position. There's no other real source of authority. And this means that basically the Spaniards now control the only source of authority, unless you're one of the Huascar faction, the only source of authority between Ecuador and northern Chile. And it means it's very hard for somebody else to challenge them effectively. The Incas, 12 million people maybe, are completely leaderless with Atahualpa as a prisoner. And the Spanish use this to their advantage. So as they did in Mexico, they allow him to receive, as you mentioned, to receive messengers, to receive tribute. They let his advisors come and go. So these blokes turn up with these massive ear spools in their ears and you know all of this, Dominic, I

Tom Holland (18:00)

mean, we're not the rest is ants, are we?

Dominic Sandbrook (18:02)

No, never pretended to be.

Tom Holland (18:03)

I think there's a parasitic ant that will invade a rival ant colony and will take captive the head of the ants.

Dominic Sandbrook (18:13)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (18:14)

And either kill it or whatever.

Dominic Sandbrook (18:16)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (18:16)

And then just take over the whole ant heap, silk and barrel. So there's a, maybe a kind of parallel between the Spanish and parasitic ants.

Dominic Sandbrook (18:24)

That's a very compelling natural history parallel. Well done. I enjoyed that. It was, it was worth the five minute break in recording to Google that. Yeah.

Tom Holland (18:31)

But I knew what to Google.

Dominic Sandbrook (18:32)

Right, you did. You deserve all the credit.

Tom Holland (18:34)

And it's the kind of thing that goes on in the rainforests of South America.

Dominic Sandbrook (18:38)

Yes. To the sound of the panpipes, surely. So even atahualpa's generals, because don't forget, there's been civil war. Even his generals act as though nothing has changed. It's important for people to realize there are the various armies roaming around. So two of Atahualpa's key generals who will play a part in the next couple of episodes are in the south. There's a guy with the excellent name of Kiskis who has just captured Cusco. And there's another commander, basically the commander in chief, the oldest of the commanders, who's called Chalco Chima. And Chalco Chima is midway between Cusco and Cajamarca. And both of these guys have about, I don't know, 40,000 men or something. Now, there's a third general who we don't need to worry about right now called Ruminawi, who is much further north. He's in Quito, in the kind of home base of the Atahualpa side of the civil war divide. Atahualpa says to these three generals, stay where you are. Don't interfere with the ransom. Wait for it to be collected. The foreigners will go once the ransom is paid, and we can get on with the business of finishing off the war, killing our enemies, and cementing control of the empire. The question, I suppose is, would his generals have tried to rescue him anyway? And I would guess probably not, because they are so. Everybody is so disorientated and baffled. In his brilliant book, the Conquest of the Incas, John Hemming makes the excellent point that basically, in most places, the Europeans conquered. Europeans had arrived multiple times before they actually turned up for good. You know, missionaries had come, traders, envoys. What's very unusual about the conquest of Peru is basically the Spanish do it all in one go. So these generals have literally never seen a European. They've never heard of a European until they hear some mad guys with beards have turned up and captured the emperor. They didn't even know Europe existed.

Tom Holland (20:28)

But what do you think they find more disorientating? The fact that Europeans have turned up with beards and stuff, or the fact that they have dared to seize the emperor and keep him as a hostage? Because in a sense, that must be the thing that's really destabilizing because there's nothing in their history or their ideology or their experience that would enable them to know what to do in such a scenario.

Dominic Sandbrook (20:50)

As we will see, they didn't even look the emperor in the eye. The emperor doesn't meet their eye when he talks to them. So the idea that these guys will have laid Hands on him, dragged him out of his litter, and then forced him to sleep next to them. That's surely the biggest twist of all. Now, you mentioned that Huascar was being brought north under guard in a cage. Yes. So Pizarro, when Atahualpa tells him this, Pizarro says, do not harm your brother. Because Pizarro obviously thinks, wow, if I get both of them, yeah, to make them fight, well, sleep with one on each side, who knows? But Atahualpa has no intention of allowing his brother to fall into the Spanish hands, because, of course, he worries that they might prefer his brother. So he sends orders to the people who are bringing Huascar up at a place called Andamarca, which is south of Cayamarca in the mountains. Huascar is murdered by his guards and his body is thrown into the river.

Tom Holland (21:45)

So that's a great example of. Of how Atahualpa, even as a captive, is still able effectively to rule the empire because all these messengers going out, taking his commands.

Dominic Sandbrook (21:55)

Exactly right. And it's also a good example of how Atahualpa is not this sort of martyr, you know, saintly martyr. Atahualpa is a very hard man.

Tom Holland (22:02)

No, I think we've established he's not a saintly martyr.

Dominic Sandbrook (22:04)

So Atahualpa sends orders, carry on with the hits. Basically. So some of his other half brothers, some of his other relatives, knocked off in the next few weeks. And to us, to subsequent historians, they say, isn't this insane that Atualpa is still pursuing his crazy factionalism, you know, after he's been taken prisoner in the face of this existential foreign threat? But he doesn't think it is an existential foreign threat. He thinks the civil war is the priority and that hopefully in the long run, he thinks maybe he could turn this to his advantage.

Tom Holland (22:33)

But I think also in a civil war, perhaps you hate the people you're fighting much more than you do foreign intruders.

Dominic Sandbrook (22:38)

Yeah, I don't think he hates the Spanish. I think he's completely confused by them. So let's move on a few weeks to January 1533. A treasure is now arriving in Cajamarca. So that's jugs, plates, bowls, all these things made of gold. And the Spanish start breaking them up when they arrive so they can fit more and more in the room. They want to cram it into the room. Atahualpa says to them, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? I will give you so much gold, you'll be sated with it. But Some of the Spanish say, you know, a few weeks have gone by, mate, we haven't seen as much gold as we hoped. So Atahualpa says, well, I can tell you two places in particular where you'll get gold. And they're two of the most sacred temples in the empire. So one of them is the shrine and oracle of Pachacamak, which is near the coast near what's now Lima. And the other is the Sun Temple of Coricancha in Cusco. I think both of these you mentioned, Tom, in your excellent Christopher Plummer reading. And the reason Atahualpa wants to surrender these two places in particular goes back to the point about the civil war. So Cusco, the Sun Temple there, the most famous temple and religious site in the Andean world. Why does he want to surrender that? Because he's probably never even been to Cusco. Cusco is his brother's city, his brother's heartland.

Tom Holland (23:48)

Well, he was planning to wipe Cusco out, wasn't he?

Dominic Sandbrook (23:50)

Yeah, exactly.

Tom Holland (23:51)

So get the Spanish to do it for him.

Dominic Sandbrook (23:53)

Yeah, he represents the north of this empire, not the south. And he just thinks, well, you know, this is a brilliant way of punishing Cusco for backing my brother.

Tom Holland (24:00)

Yeah, I mean, it's like someone in Manchester saying, destroy London.

Dominic Sandbrook (24:05)

Exactly. And then the other one, Pachacamac. Amusingly, the priests at this oracle had made some disastrous predictions. They had. They basically had the crystal ball that I used to use in my associated newspaper stays. So. So they said, first of all, they had said that his father, Huyna Capac, would recover of smallpox. He promptly died. They told Huascar that he would beat Atahualpa. As we discovered, Huascar ended up in a cage. And they told Atahualpa that foreigners would arrive and he would easily defeat them. So Atahualpa says, this oracle is absolutely useless. And actually, there's a funny story. The high priest apparently went with Patch of Kamak, went to Caymarc to see Atahualpa, and Atahualpa upbraided him in front of the Spaniards and said, your predictions are terrible. You know, you are absolutely worthless. Of course we're going to take all your gold. You've absolutely shamed yourselves.

Tom Holland (24:55)

But also isn't Atahualpa has started to fathom Spaniards religious motivation and he kind of fires them up for sacking these temples by saying that the gods worship there are demons.

Dominic Sandbrook (25:04)

Yes, exactly. So.

Tom Holland (25:05)

So that's another way in which he can get his vengeance on kind of priesthoods that he feel are against his rule.

Dominic Sandbrook (25:12)

And actually the interesting thing. So Pachacamac. Pachacamak dates back for more than a thousand years before the Incas. This is not an Inca shrine. Yeah, it's part of the Andean world, but it's not part of their official state sponsored sun religion, which they've been really trying to impose across the empire in recent decades.

Tom Holland (25:31)

There's a slight kind of owlman quality to it as well, isn't there? So the owl man is the. The figure in. Yeah, in the Aztec story, where. Yeah, you know, you unleash the owl man and the world will end, but at least you'll destroy your enemies. And he gets shot and that's the end of the owl man. There's a prophecy that if the temple at Pachacahamak is attacked, then a universal flood would wipe out the entire world.

Dominic Sandbrook (25:57)

Oh, that's right, yes.

Tom Holland (25:58)

And therefore, if, you know, tribute isn't paid to this temple, then, then it will be disastrous. So essentially the Spanish, by sending people to loot it, are putting that prophecy to the test. And if they're wrong, then a universal flood will destroy all of life on Earth. So the stakes are quite high.

Dominic Sandbrook (26:15)

They are high. So Pizarro sends his brother Hernando to this shrine, Apachacamac, on the coast. And it's good for us that he did because some of the guys that went with Hernando wrote these fantastic memoirs of the conquest. So a guy called Miguel de Estete, and they write these really. There's some of the first kind of really lyrical descriptions of the South American landscape.

Tom Holland (26:36)

There's a brilliant description of the road over the Andes. And the highlands are described as truly a land so muddy that it's like, has not been seen in Christendom. They obviously not been to Somerset in January.

Dominic Sandbrook (26:47)

Clearly not. So they go to the sanctuary and estate said it was basically the top of an adobe pyramid. And he was very underwhelmed by it. He said it was very dark and it didn't smell very pleasant. A very small, rough cavern. Seeing the filth and mockery of the idol, we went out to ask why, thought highly of something so dirty and ugly. And actually there was no treasure there at all. If there was any treasure. The priests had hidden it and the Spanish, they just smashed the whole place up.

Tom Holland (27:15)

And is there a universal flood?

Dominic Sandbrook (27:17)

No, not at all. So. So Anando then sets off back to Kaimaka. And actually the distances in this story are absolutely mad. So Hernando has just traveled 800 miles. He's got 800 miles to go back. And he goes. He's going back to Cajamarca. And then he discovers that at a place called Shaoxa, Atahualpa's commander in chief, this guy Chalcima, is blocking the mountain road with about 35,000 men. Now, Chalco Chima is the most experienced of all Atualpa's generals. He's basically the sort of the grizzled veteran character in a sort of fantasy novel or something. I served your father. You know, that kind of thing. Yes, that's his vibe.

Tom Holland (27:58)

So the kind of character who is honorable but ultimately doomed in a science fiction story.

Dominic Sandbrook (28:07)

Completely. That's completely what he is. Exactly right. So he's like that sort of Jorah Mormont or whatever in Game of Thrones, that sort of figure.

Tom Holland (28:15)

Yeah.

Dominic Sandbrook (28:16)

So John Hemings says Chalco Chima is the one man who might have united the empire against the Spaniards because he's the one man who's not entirely defined by the civil war because he had served Atahualpa's father. So in other words, what Chalco Chima does now is very important. Hernando arrives in Shaozha with his men. They've done this mad journey. They've climbed 16,000ft up into the Andes. They've been trudging through snow. They're absolutely shattered. There are only a few dozen of them, and Chalco Chima has more than 30,000 men. They arrive in Jaucha and there's this festival going on. So there's people dancing and singing, and they sort of ignore the Spanish. So the Spanish hang around a bit. And then finally, Chalco Chima arrives at the senior officers. We have a description of him from the later chronicler Fieta de Leon, who says he was a muscular man with a broad back, a fierce expression, and a short, very thick neck. So he looks like a rugby player, basically. And Nando says to Chima, you know, Atahualpa wants you to come with us to Cayermarca. And Chalcochima says, no. No what? I'm not going with you. I haven't had any orders to say I should go with you. They have a massive argument all night. The Spanish think, well, if he doesn't, if he attacks us, we're pretty much doomed. Cause he's got 30,000 men, and we've got sort of, you know, 20 men or something. But the mad thing is, when the dawn breaks, Chima returns and says, yeah, actually, I've been thinking about it. I will come with you to Cuyamarca. Fair enough.

Tom Holland (29:37)

One possible influence on him, do you think, is the fact that the local people here are anti Atahualpa.

Dominic Sandbrook (29:44)

Yes.

Tom Holland (29:45)

So they had not been backing them. And these are the Wanker people.

Dominic Sandbrook (29:49)

Do you know, I actually, I omitted all mention of these people, the Wanker for precisely this reason because I thought you would get too much.

Tom Holland (29:56)

I didn't find it funny at all.

Dominic Sandbrook (29:58)

Schoolboyish pleasure from the existence of these people.

Tom Holland (30:01)

There's nothing funny about it. But I think the role of the Wanker in this story is one that, you know, we shouldn't overlook.

Dominic Sandbrook (30:07)

No, I mean, and indeed in this podcast we shouldn't overlook it at all

Tom Holland (30:12)

because the wankers will be back, won't they, later on?

Dominic Sandbrook (30:15)

Well, they will. I mean, I was hoping they won't, but clearly you're going to bring them back in.

Tom Holland (30:19)

It's all about detail, Dominic. It's about the granular level.

Dominic Sandbrook (30:22)

So anyway, why has Chalco Chima? He hasn't just done it because of the presence of the Huanca, he's also going with them. I think because he's been completely thrown by the Spaniards presence, by their very existence. He doesn't know what to do when they say Atahualpa has sent for you. I mean he's taking a risk if he doesn't go. So he decides he'll go with them. And as John Hemings says, this decision was a tragic mistake, one of the turning points in the collapse of resistance to the Spanish invaders. For by riding out of Shousa with this deceptively small band of strangers, Chaguchima delivered himself into captivity and death. Oh dear. But not at first. At first they treat him with tremendous friendship and they ride together across the great scenery of the Cordillera Blanca, past the sources of the Amazon, all this kind of thing. And they finally get to Cajamarca and the other Spaniards say, oh, brilliant, you're back. Great to see you. Chalco Chima at this point probably is beginning to think, did I make the right choice in going with these guys? Because they take him into se Atahualpa. Chalco Chima is overcome with emotion to see the great Inca. And he, and I quote, raised his hands to the son to give thanks for being allowed to see him again. He went up to him with great reverence, weeping and kissed him on the face, hands and feet. And the other chiefs who had come with him did the same. But Atahualpa won't even look him in the face. Now this is standard for the Inca. The Inca doesn't normally look at commoners in the eyes. But the Spanish can see that Atahualpa is gutted that his best commander has just walked straight into captivity alongside him. And actually, now for Chaguchima, the smiles on the faces of his Spanish friends begin to fade.

Tom Holland (32:05)

It is odd that Atahualpa didn't send him a message to say, don't do

Dominic Sandbrook (32:08)

it hard when you're communicating only by knotted. Knotted strings. No.

Tom Holland (32:12)

Yeah, I suppose.

Dominic Sandbrook (32:14)

I mean, this is the issue if they develop writing and maybe a different story. So the Spanish now say to Chalco Chima, right, You know, the gloves are off now. Where's your gold? We would like more of your gold. And Chima said, I don't have any. I mean, what gold I have, I brought with me. Soto and we told, took him aside and threatened to burn him unless he told the truth. He gave the same answer as before. They put up a stake and tied him to it and brought firewood and straw, saying they would set fire to him unless he told the truth. Truth. Then there's this terrible scene. Sho Chima kind of breaks down and he says, get the emperor. They bring out the emperor. Atahualpa comes out and says, don't worry. Don't listen to these Spanish. They're bluffing. They won't burn you. Spanish promptly set him on fire and we're told, gusts of laughter. Yeah, they cut him down after a few moments and they dragged him to Hernando Pizarro's lodging. So this is the bloke who's been traveling with him. Quote, his legs and arms burned and his tendons shriveled. And we're told that Hernando was quite nice to him and tended him.

Tom Holland (33:11)

I mean, this is a skill it turns out the Spaniards have, isn't it? Is burning human bodies to just the right degree.

Dominic Sandbrook (33:19)

Exactly. I like grilling. He's not dead. But I have to tell you that for Chojima and indeed for Atahualpa, there is not going to be a very happy ending.

Tom Holland (33:30)

So I think on that note, we should take a break. There is so much to play for. And we will find out who triumphs, the Spaniards or Atahualpa after the break. This episode is brought to you by Claude by Anthropic. Now, history lives in the contradictions.

Dominic Sandbrook (33:52)

Yeah. I've always been fascinated by the great mysteries of history, like what happened to the Maya civilization of Central America. Why were all those great cities deserted? But, Tom, there's one mystery that's always fascinated you, isn't there? Yes.

Tom Holland (34:04)

Dominic I've always been fascinated by the question of how humans came to make and use fire. How did that originate? And a tremendous discovery was announced just last year that the place where it seems fire was invented was Suffolk.

Dominic Sandbrook (34:22)

Well, you know, one of the things that makes history so fascinating is the kind of back and forth between sources to try and explain, explain these great mysteries and, you know, what's built for that kind of thinking. Claude is built for that way of thinking. It doesn't smooth things over. It helps you dig into the disagreement to reveal something new and anthropic. Just committed to not running adverts in Claude. So your thinking stays yours.

Tom Holland (34:46)

Try Claude for free at claude.AI/. Rest is history.

Dominic Sandbrook (34:55)

Hello everybody, and welcome to the Book Club, a new podcast from Goal Hanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sambrook, and me, Tabitha Syrett.

Tabitha Syrett (35:04)

As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on the Rest Is History and we even did a mini series last year about all things books.

Dominic Sandbrook (35:11)

And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show. So it'll be coming out every. Every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

Tabitha Syrett (35:23)

And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

Dominic Sandbrook (35:41)

Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we have hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts, you'll do lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby the odd laugh.

Tabitha Syrett (35:58)

We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like the Great Gatsby or Little Women, and then also in some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, Normal People, the Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.

Dominic Sandbrook (36:17)

So please join us on our journey into all things books. Wherever you get your podcasts, just search for the Book club every Tuesday and hopefully we will see you there. Foreign.

Tom Holland (36:40)

This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money.

Dominic Sandbrook (36:43)

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Tom Holland (37:03)

I mean, my finances are so chaotic that I need this app.

Dominic Sandbrook (37:05)

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Tom Holland (37:19)

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Dominic Sandbrook (37:48)

That's RocketMoney.com is history. RocketMoney.com is history.

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Dominic Sandbrook (38:09)

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Tom Holland (38:33)

Hello and welcome back to the Rest is history. It is April 1533, and for weeks now, the gold of the Incas has been rolling into this room that has a white line around it. The gold has to reach that white line or else Atahualpa is going to be killed. And Dominic, every day that that hoard is getting higher, isn't it? Because you've got streams of porters, streams of llamas, and they are just bringing in gold from across Peru and beyond.

Dominic Sandbrook (39:00)

They are. And that's watching with great satisfaction because with every new convoy, surely the day of his freedom is approaching. But the gold porters are not the only new arrivals in Cajamarca. Just before Easter, a familiar face joins this merry party. And this is Pizarro's business partner, Diego de Almagro. Yeah, made Described in episode one. He's short, he's ugly, he's flamboyant, so he's colorfully dressed, but he's also very boastful and sort of boorish.

Tom Holland (39:28)

John Rhys Davies.

Dominic Sandbrook (39:30)

Yes.

Tom Holland (39:30)

Who played Gimli.

Dominic Sandbrook (39:31)

Exactly. Now, remember, the deal was that he would get reinforcements in Panama and he would come along later. And this is precisely what he's done. He's arrived with 150 Spaniards with a load more horses and some royal officials who are basically going to report back to the court in Spain, to Charles V. So this has massive implications now for both Pizarro and Atoalba. So Pizarro now has his business partner on hand who he has screwed over from the very beginning because he got himself the title of governor, but basically was the commandant of a fort or something, title for his business partner. And Almagro throughout this whole thing. He's paranoid that he's going to be cut out of the loot. Now, Atahualpa, when he sees these guys arrive, he obviously needs to recalibrate because clearly there are a lot more Spaniards out there and he can tell they're not just going to go away when they've got the gold. And this is not just a raid. This looks more like an invasion. And at this point, Atahualpa says to Pizarro, are you going home or are you going to stay?

Tom Holland (40:32)

I mean, it's been great having you,

Dominic Sandbrook (40:33)

but, yeah, you know, when are you leaving?

Tom Holland (40:36)

Are you? So I check out the train times and.

Dominic Sandbrook (40:39)

And for the first time, Pizarro says to him, we are going to stay and we are going to divide up your workers, your people among ourselves. And this is a huge shock for Atahualpa. Pizarro says, don't worry, we will leave the northern bit, the province of Quito, to you. That's your heartland, it'll be your kingdom. But Atahualpa for the first time thinks, I don't believe these guys. They are not going to honor this agreement.

Tom Holland (41:04)

And is he starting to think, can I even trust them to set me free when the line gets reached?

Dominic Sandbrook (41:10)

Exactly. Exactly. Now, all the time, the gold has been rolling in, as you said. And at the first week of May 1533, Pizarro orders his men to start melting it down. This is an incredible operation. They built nine huge forges under Spanish supervision. Inca smiths are going to do it. And they are feeding the fires all day, all night, seven days a week for seven weeks with more than 600 pounds of gold a day. So that's a total of 11 tons. And we're talking about vases, figurines, idols, ornaments, necklaces, you name it. These are beautiful artifacts because we know from the very few that were preserved the high standard of Andean kind of gold craftsmanship.

Tom Holland (41:55)

Such a tragedy.

Dominic Sandbrook (41:56)

Imagine what it would be like to have these things.

Tom Holland (41:58)

Yeah.

Dominic Sandbrook (41:58)

The Spanish turned them into bars that would be stamped with the royal symbol. And, you know, there are going to be £13,500 of gold bars, £16,000 of silver bars, which are all destined to be shipped back to Spain. Now, you'll remember that I mentioned that Atahualpa had offered them two temples. So one is Pacho Camac, which we talked about last time, and the other was the Sun Temple of Coricancha in Cusco. And he has now persuaded Pizarro send some men to Cusco to this sun temple. Cusco is a hell of a long way away, 750 miles across the central Andes.

Tom Holland (42:37)

Not for people who've been going 800 miles.

Dominic Sandbrook (42:39)

Well, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Except you're going across the mountains, which is hard.

Tom Holland (42:42)

Yeah, true.

Dominic Sandbrook (42:43)

So when he gets a message from Hernando, his brother, to say Pachacamac is no good, there's no goal, Pizarro says, okay, fine, we'll do it. And he sends three volunteers. Three. I know three volunteers with an escort all the way across the Andes south to Cuzco. And they get there in early April, and they're greeted by Atahualpa's General Quiz Kis, who is occupying Cuzco. Now, we'll talk a lot about Cuzco next time, so we don't massively go into it now, but just to talk about the temple Codicantia. This was the holiest place that there was for the Incas. It's the Temple of the Sun. The Inca, of course, is the sun of the Sun. There is this herb garden, there's a convent, there's an astronomical observatory. John Heming calls it the Mecca of the Inca Empire because pilgrims would come from all over the Andes to visit this place. And even though Quisquis is a northerner who's put Cusco under military occupation, he's shocked when the Spaniards say, we've come to basically rip out the gold from this temple.

Tom Holland (43:41)

I mean, imagine, you know, they turn up in Mecca and say, we've been sent to despoil the mosque. That didn't go down well, not at all.

Dominic Sandbrook (43:49)

And they're very rude. He's very shocked that they're uncouth and they Abuse the women of the temples. That's all we're told. I think we can guess, given the Spanish behavior earlier in the last episode, exactly how badly behaved they are with the women of the temples seems incomprehensible.

Tom Holland (44:05)

They're not just lynched.

Dominic Sandbrook (44:06)

I know when there's only three of them. Insane, isn't it? And the mad thing is, Kiskus says, okay, fair enough. And his men fetch tools so that these Spanish guys with crowbars can take these giant gold plates off the walls of the temples.

Tom Holland (44:21)

I mean, isn't it that Kiskis is actually. He's in command of an occupying force.

Dominic Sandbrook (44:26)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (44:27)

And presumably shares Atahualpa's contempt for what Cuzco represents, I'm sure. So in a sense, maybe the Spaniards are doing dirty work that he can't actually.

Dominic Sandbrook (44:38)

I suppose maybe because I cannot comprehend

Tom Holland (44:41)

how they would be allowed to do this otherwise.

Dominic Sandbrook (44:43)

Yeah, maybe. I mean, I think the fact that he's a northerner definitely is a factor, and he's commanding an occupying army. But even so, he's part of the Inca world. He believes in the cult of the sun. You know, he's part of that cosmological ecosystem. But they tear it all down. So these great plates, they're about two and a half feet long. They weigh five pounds each. They're beautifully decorated, we're told, with images of trees and flowers and things like that. Solid gold. The Spaniards tear it all down. They get hundreds of porters to carry it back. Of course, no wheels, no carts in

Tom Holland (45:15)

Peru, that God for llamas.

Dominic Sandbrook (45:16)

Yeah. And I mean, they have hundreds of porters carrying these things, literally, like trudging across the mountains carrying these great gold plates. They've got these pallets basically loaded with gold and silver. And when they get back to Cajamarca, Pizarro and the people in Cajamarca just can't believe their eyes. This stream of porters with all the gold of Cusco, 14,000 pounds of gold, 26,000 pounds of silver combined, 20 metric tons of treasure. And at this point, Atahualpa's ransom is unquestionably the biggest ransom ever paid. You know, there's a sort of rabbit hole of economic history where people have tried to quantify how much this is. At the lowest, it's billions of dollars or pounds in today's money. At the highest is tens and tens of billions. I mean, it's almost impossible to put a figure on it.

Tom Holland (46:02)

And Pizarro is part of that chivalric culture where ransoms are Taken for granted. And he is so hit the jackpot with this one.

Dominic Sandbrook (46:12)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (46:12)

I mean, it puts Francis the First into exactly very, very low rent.

Dominic Sandbrook (46:17)

It's as though somebody has basically said to him, how much ransom would you like? And he said, I don't know.

Tom Holland (46:21)

Billion, billion, Zillion trillion.

Dominic Sandbrook (46:25)

Yeah. And they've said, okay, we've got it. You know, here it is. The three Spaniards who turn up back in Cuyamarca say, you know, the mad thing, this is only a fraction of the gold in Cusco. They said there was so much gold in all the temples of the city that it was marvellous. They would have brought back much more of it, but it would have detained them longer. And they said, we've already taken steps to start hoarding it. We've got a big storehouse there, we've got blokes guarding it. Great. And Pizarro and El Malco say, oh, my God. So Cusco's next. So this is a thing, see, they're going to want to go on to Cusco. On 17 June, Pizarro starts to share out the gold. A fifth of it is set aside for the crown. After that, all of his horsemen will get £90 of gold. That's 40 kilos. And they'll get £180 of silver. 81 kilos. Anyone who's not a horseman gets half of this, except for the priests and friars, who get even less. I don't know why. They're pledged to poverty, I suppose so. And of course, the bigwigs get a lot more. So Hernando de Soto gets double. Francisco Pizarro gets seven times what a horseman gets, and he gets Atahualpa's solid gold thrown, which is very expensive.

Tom Holland (47:31)

And Dominic, what about Diego Almagro, who's turned up and has been systematically frozen out?

Dominic Sandbrook (47:37)

So Almagro says to Pizarro, I think the fair thing to do would be to split this equally between us, between your men and my men. And Pizarro says, I don't know, because we kind of did all the dirty work by arriving and catching Atualpa and you came late. So I think what would be best is for you to get just a little token amount. And this is what happens. He gives him, you know, a few trinkets, a few crumbs from his table.

Tom Holland (48:01)

Remind me what the balance of power is between them.

Dominic Sandbrook (48:03)

So Almagro has turned up with about 150 men. Pizarro has a few more. Actually, Pizarro has something like 167 168.

Tom Holland (48:10)

Because it's kind of amazing in that situation that they don't turn on each other.

Dominic Sandbrook (48:13)

Yes. Well, if you're looking for them to turn on each other, Tom, I've got great news for you. There'll be a lot of turning on each other to come.

Tom Holland (48:19)

I mean, if I was a Malgrave.

Dominic Sandbrook (48:21)

There you go, Matt. You'd say, what? This was always our deal, that I would come later, and I come later now, and you cut me out. There's an argument that Almagro is being a bit naive. This is how conquistadors always behave. They always stab each other in the back and you have to be on hand. And actually, Pizarro is a shrewd guy for somebody who's basically, you know, is illiterate and he's come from nowhere. He's not a fool, because he straight away knows, I must get the king on side. I don't want to be Cortez and end up in constant lawsuits. You know, I must have royal approval. So he gets his brother Hernando, and he gives him a written report. Obviously, his secretary's written this for him. And he gives him a load of gold, and he gives him some ornaments, and he says, go back to the coast. Go to Panama, then sail on to Spain with all this gold with this report. Go to see the king, get him to approve my. You know, to re. Approve my governorship of this province, because we cannot afford to be cut out by somebody else. There's a downside, though. If Hernando Pizarro, his brother, is going off, because Atahualpa has become great pals with Hernando. They're both kind of alpha males, and they've kind of bonded over, I don't know, drinking from this skull or something. Skulls.

Tom Holland (49:33)

Vampire bat.

Dominic Sandbrook (49:34)

Yeah, gilies and. Yeah, exactly. Red trousers made of vampire bats. Well, while you're spitting into the hands

Stephen Fry (49:41)

of beautiful women watching the rugger together.

Dominic Sandbrook (49:44)

Yeah, exactly. Atahualpa actually bursts into tears, and he says, you know, I'm worried that with you gone, the others will kill me.

Tom Holland (49:52)

So he's starting to wake up to that possibility then.

Dominic Sandbrook (49:55)

And Ando says, I'm sure they won't kill you. No, I've promised you they won't kill you. But once he's gone, Atahualpa gets very miserable. He supposedly sees this comet which foreshadows his death. I think that probably didn't happen. But what did happen? He is extremely concerned about Almagro because Almagro didn't capture him. Has not spent time with him, is just impatient to push onto Cuzco and get his own share of the gold. Now, what happens next is a very murky story, so we'll try to find our way through it. One of the murkiest stories of the whole conquest. What happened to Atahualpa? Atahualpa said to Pizarro, around this point, you know, you've pretty much got what you came for. Most of the ransom has arrived. Now, I think you can set me free a little bit, give me a bit more freedom to kind of walk around stuff. Now, there are stories and some sources that one of the interpreters called Felipio, had fallen in love with one of Atahualba's mistresses and basically wanted Atahualpa out of the way. So he starts telling the Spanish, oh, Atahualpa is betraying you. Atahualpa is planning to escape. He's planning to team up with Ruminahoui, who's his commander in Quito. Who's the guy in the north. It's possible this is just a kind of literary device. This didn't really happen. But. But even if it didn't happen, there is a genuine issue that it points to, which is the Spanish have become, as time has gone on, more and more anxious about their position in Cajamarca. They've got all this gold now, which they're sitting on, but they're very conscious that they're outnumbered and they are very worried about an attack from the north. So this guy, Ruman Yahweh, who's in Ecuador, who is the commander of the army there, they become very worried that he's basically the Jimmy Carter of this story, right? And he's going to. He's going to launch a Delta 4 style operation Eagle Claw rescue to spring Atahualpa from his prison in Caijamarca. Now, if they were students of history and they'd listen to our series on the Iranian Revolution, no, nothing to worry there. They would know there was nothing to worry about. Actually, I have to say, as we'll discover next time, two more different people than Roumanyawi and Jimmy Carter could not be imagined. I mean, Rouman would never appear on TV in a cardigan to tell you to turn the thermostat down. He would turn you into a drum. That's what he would do.

Tom Holland (52:09)

There's a little preview for the next episode.

Dominic Sandbrook (52:11)

So rumours start to flood into Cuyamarker that Rumihe is on his way south. So one local chief says to Pizarro men are coming under a great commander called Rumi Nyawi. 200,000 people from Quito and 30,000 Caribs who eat human flesh. Yeah.

Tom Holland (52:27)

So the cannibals are coming.

Dominic Sandbrook (52:29)

Yeah. And the Spanish, of course, take this seriously. Why wouldn't they? It's kind of mad that the Atahualpa's armies haven't attacked them. And surely they think only a matter of time before Atahualpa's armies decide they're going to try and rescue him.

Tom Holland (52:41)

But I guess ultimately the issue comes down to are they likely to survive if Atahualpa is dead, or if they release him, can they trust him to be their protector?

Dominic Sandbrook (52:53)

That's exactly right.

Tom Holland (52:54)

I mean, that's ultimately the decision.

Dominic Sandbrook (52:56)

They can't make up their minds. And Pizarro, I think in particular is very conflicted. They want to go to Cusco to get more gold. So what do they do with Atelpa? They could leave him behind. That's so risky. He'll just turn on them. Surely they can see he's a hard man or number two. They could take him with them across the mountains. But that's risky too. Here we're focused for, you know, resistance. People will try to rescue him. It's so dangerous. The obvious answer, the simplest and cleanest, just get rid. Kill him. That's what Cortes and co did with Montezuma. I think that's what Cortez and co did. The only thing that sort of cuts against that is if they wanted to just get rid of him. And all this stuff about Ruminari is a pretext for doing what they always wanted to do. Why does Pizarro hang around? And why are there so many accounts of him crying and being conflicted about it all? We have one account. He goes to Seattle and he says, I've heard rumors that your men are going to come and rescue you and you're communicating with them through your knotted strings. And Atahualpa scoffed at him. Are you joking? What chance would my men have against men as brave as you? Stop mocking me like this. And clearly some of the Spaniards do believe him. So one of the younger men, a guy called Pedro Catano, remembers that Atahualpa called Pizarro's bluff. If any warriors did come from Kita, they would be coming on my orders. Find out whether it's true. If it is true, then go ahead. You can execute me. And the Spanish sources say that Pizarro found this very stressful. He couldn't decide what to do. He ordered Atahualpa to be chained by the neck at this point to stop him escaping.

Tom Holland (54:30)

Is there not a kind of legal dimension to this? Because we've talked throughout how legalistic the Spaniards are.

Dominic Sandbrook (54:37)

Yes.

Tom Holland (54:38)

His entire governorship depends on royal approval.

Dominic Sandbrook (54:43)

Yes.

Tom Holland (54:43)

And killing an emperor who you've promised life to, I mean, it's not a good look, is it? From the perspective of the Spanish court?

Dominic Sandbrook (54:49)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (54:50)

I mean, it may not just be kind of humanitarian instincts. It may be a genuine anxiety that he's torn between kind of legalistic imperatives and his sense of what would be practically the best thing to do, which would be to kill him.

Dominic Sandbrook (55:03)

I think that's absolutely right. I think, as we will see, he knows perfectly well that Charles V will go ballistic if he finds out that Pizarro has murdered a monarch. I mean, even in this Aztec story, Cortez had to make up a load of nonsense about Montezuma rebelling, having agreed to in order to justify murdering Montezuma. And I think this is exactly what Pizarro is facing right now. Mid July 1533, he calls a big meeting to decide Atahualpa's fate. And all the big guns are there. We're told that Pizarro and the men who had been there from the very beginning want to keep Atahualpa alive. They say it's honorable to keep him alive. They gave him their word because of the ransom. The ransom's been paid. We should keep our side of the bargain. They say he's a really useful hostage. Why would you give up a hostage like this? They point out not a single Spaniard has been attacked or injured since they took him prisoner. You know, clearly this is working, so let's keep him. And some of them actually, clearly are fond of him. You know, we know from the chronicles and whatnot that there were people who spent their evenings talking to him through the interpreters and actually said, he's not such a bad guy. I don't think we should kill him. But the people who've come with Alvarado take a very different view. They've got no investment in him. They say he'll be a focus for resistance. The longer this goes on, the more likely it is that his people will turn on us. And crucially, we want to go to Cusco to get our share of the gold. Can we please stop hanging around? Can we get rid of the Spaniards? Can't agree. And Pizarro sends out a scouting party under Hernando de Soto to see if this northern army really is coming and while De Soto is away, the tension mounts. To cut to the chase, there's an evening when they're playing cards and a Spaniard comes in and says there's more rumors. There's people saying there are Inca troops approaching the town and Almagro and Pizarro have a huge row. And then a couple of evenings later there is another such incident. Local people say they've seen the villagers outside fleeing before an Inca army. The Inca army will be in Cachamarca in two days. You know, the moment has come now. This army does not exist. There is no attack on Cachamarca. But as John Hemings says in his book, the key to the story is the hysteria and the paranoia that has now seized the Spaniards. They're in the middle of nowhere. They're thousands of miles from home. They're surrounded by 12 million people. They're absolutely terrified. Now this gold is going to be taken from them and they're going to be attacked. They've never fought an Inca army. Actually, they've attacked effectively unarmed Incas in the square. But that's not the same as a pitched battle where the Incas are attacking them.

Tom Holland (57:48)

I mean, I'd be paranoid in their shoes.

Dominic Sandbrook (57:49)

Of course you would. Of course you would. So they have another meeting. Almagro and co demand another meeting. And this time it's clear that Pizarro is outnumbered. And the royal officials crucially back Almagro up and say, yeah, Atahualpa must die. And so Pizarro agrees. I don't doubt the sources that Pizarro is very reluctant because they're kind of unanimous on this point. And he says, fine, quote, atahualpa must die, since he had broken the peace and plotted treason in bringing men to kill the Christians. Now the Spanish sources disagree on one thing and actually historians themselves now disagree. Was there a trial or wasn't there? Because some say there was, some said there wasn't. I think it's because the conquistadors are so legalistic. They're always so anxious about being, you know, drawn into American style lawsuits that they have some kind of rudimentary court martial. Because we do have accounts of it.

Tom Holland (58:42)

I mean, some kind. So basically a kangaroo court.

Dominic Sandbrook (58:46)

Kangaroo court. Pizarro and Almagro are the judges and there's a prosecutor who's basically barking out questions. Atahualpa, did you kill Huascar? Did you force your subjects to sacrifice women and children to your gods? Were your wars just. Have you been giving orders for the Spaniards to be killed? Some of the Spanish sources say the questions were ridiculous and the interpreters were deliberately mangling the questions and Atahualpa's answers to portray him in the woods, worst possible light. Atahualpa, for all that we've said, he's a very hard man. He's also a very emotional man. He breaks down in tears and he says, I can give you twice as much gold and silver as I've already given you if you'll spare me. And we're told that Pizarro was crying as well. But Pizarro at the end says, you have been found guilty of idolatry, heresy, regicide, fratricide, treason, polygamy and incest. I mean, they really are throwing the book at him. And the sentence for all this is death. And because he had committed treason, he should die by burning unless he converted to Christianity. Now this is very worrying for Atahualpa because die by burning is unthinkable for an Inca. If he's going to live on in paradise in Hana Pancha, as the Incas call it, then his body cannot be burned because you can't get into paradise if you've been burned.

Tom Holland (60:08)

And they mummify the bodies, don't they? Of the. Of the.

Dominic Sandbrook (60:10)

Yes, you must be embalmed if you're the emperor. I mean, we'll talk about this in the next episode. They will mummify you and then they'll give you your own palace in Cusco and they'll bring you out at festivals

Tom Holland (60:22)

for royal weddings and things and parades

Dominic Sandbrook (60:23)

and processions and things. You'll have your own servants and stuff when you're a mummy. This is terrible. If Fatu Alpa can't enjoy this future joy now, he doesn't have much time to think about it. The trial ends. So called trial, if there is a trial, ends in the early hours of Saturday 26th July. And the Spaniards say, we want to get this done by tonight, basically A in case Atahualpa's rescued or B in case Pizarro changes his mind. And so that evening, nights falling, Atahualpa is led out into the square in Cajamarca, the place where he had been captured before this big crowd and he's tied to a stake. It's an absolutely kind of heart rending scene. Even though he is a bad man in some ways, he's sobbing like a baby. He says, I want to entrust my children to Pizarro's protection. And Valverde, the Dominican friar says to him, you know, forget about your children. Accept Baptism and die like a Christian, we're told. Atahualpa continued to persist in commending his sons with great weeping, indicating their size with his hand showing by the signs he made and by his words that they were small and that he was leaving them in Quito. And eventually Valverde says, well, you know, Pizarro will look after them and he'll as though they're his own children. And Atahualpa says, fine, in that case, I'll accept baptism and I'll become a Christian.

Tom Holland (61:39)

And the irony there is that he's doing that to preserve his, you know, his supernatural potency. Yeah, in the kingdom of the gods.

Dominic Sandbrook (61:49)

Yeah, so. Yes, exactly. Valverde then baptizes him, and he gives him the name Francisco of all names, and then he's not going to be burned. The guards tie a cord around Atahualpa's neck, and as Valverde leads the Spaniards in reciting the creed, Atahualpa is garrotted. So that is the end of him. But a couple more details. First of all, the Spanish, of course, had promised him he would not be burned. Now they don't burn him to ashes.

Tom Holland (62:20)

They grill him.

Dominic Sandbrook (62:21)

They give him a grilling, and then they leave his grilled body in the square overnight, quote, for everyone to learn of his death as basically a message. And that grilling, I think, is a gesture. You know, you and I are talking about this before we started recording. I think this is a gesture of contempt for him, probably by the Almagristas.

Tom Holland (62:42)

So he's buried, isn't he, in the local church? Yes, but there are stories that people rescue the body, take it to Ecuador, up to Quito and mummify it. And there are kind of archaeologists who

Dominic Sandbrook (62:54)

go on a Indiana Jones type. Yes, exactly.

Tom Holland (62:57)

Maybe out there, Atahalper's mummified body, maybe lightly grilled, is still there. Who knows?

Dominic Sandbrook (63:04)

Yeah, perfect. I mean, it's perfectly possible. There is not, I think, straight away, but I think in subsequent decades, there starts to be this kind of cult of Atualpa and a belief that maybe he might come back from the dead. Pedro Pizarro records a very weird scene. Basically, two of Atahualpa's sisters got into Pizarro's apartment and, quote, began to call for Atahualpa, searching very softly for him in all the corners. But seeing that he did not answer, they went out making a great lamentation. I disabused them and told them that dead men do not return. The really interesting thing, though, is the reaction of the Spanish themselves. Remember I said that they'd sent off Hernando de Soto to look for this northern army. Soto gets back and he says, there's no northern army. I mean, it's been made up. There's no Inca troops advancing on the town. And then he discovers they've killed Atahualpa and he goes absolutely ballistic. And he says, how could you do this behind my back when I was gone? I'm meant to be the number two man in this expedition. You've killed this guy who was our chief hostage and one of our biggest assets. Now, meanwhile, Pizarro, one of his secretaries, writes a report for him to Charles V saying, I have executed a monarch, but I'm just going to explain exactly why I've done it. And the reaction in Spain was that Pizarro had behaved badly. Not that Pizarro had done the right thing, but the Pizarro had let Spain down. So there's a judge in Panama called Gaspard Espinosa who's writing all the time to Charles V, basically sending him reports of what these guys are getting up to in Peru. And he writes to Charles V and he says, the Spanish in Cajamarca are totally out of control. Their greed is so great as to be insatiable. The more the native chiefs give, the more the Spaniards kill or torture them to give even more. He says they should never have killed Atahualpa, a man who'd fallen into their hands and who'd done no harm to any Spaniard. They could have sent him here to Panama with his wives and servants as his rank deserved. We would all have honoured him and treated him like a great noble of Castile. And actually this becomes this established. This will surprise some listeners who just think of this, you know, who have subscribed to the black legend of Spain, of 16th century Spain as uniquely cruel and, you know, greedy and whatnot. Most Spanish chroniclers agreed that Pizarro had done the wrong thing. So this is Gonzalo Fernandez de oviedo in the 1530s. The killing of so great a prince was an infamous disservice to God and the emperor. An act of great ingratitude and outstanding ev. Evil. And this is probably most influential of all the Spanish writers about Peru. Pedro Theater de leon in the 1550s. The most evil deed the Spaniards have done in all the Empire of the Indies. It is widely vituperated and it's considered a grave sin. And this is definitely what the King himself thought, Charles V. Because when he wrote back to Pizarro, he said, we have been displeased by the death of Atahualpa since he was a monarch, and particularly as it was done in the name of justice, we will seek more information about this matter and then order what is necessary. And if you're Pizarro reading this, you surely think, oh, no.

Tom Holland (66:07)

And that's probably what Pizarro was worrying about. Exactly that reaction.

Dominic Sandbrook (66:11)

Atahualba is dead and Pizarro's position is looking a little bit rickety. So his brother Hernando, on whom he relied, has gone back to Spain with some of the gold. His chief lieutenant, Hernando de Soto, is furious with him about the death of Atahualba and his partner, Diego de Almagro is absolutely furious.

Tom Holland (66:32)

Yeah, he's livid.

Dominic Sandbrook (66:33)

Yeah, livid. He is livid about the unequal division of the treasure. And now Pizarro and his men are facing their biggest challenge yet. Atahualpa is dead and the Inca empire is leaderless. So they need to find a new puppet on whom they can rely. And tomorrow. Their road now lies south up into the Andes, across the Inca heartland to the city of gold, Cusco. But what awaits them there is darker and bloodier and more dramatic than even they could possibly have imagined.

Tom Holland (67:07)

Well, dear listeners, if you like darkness and blood stained drama, then wow. Who have got a treat for you in the next episode. Members of the Restless History Club, of course, can hear it right away together with the final two episodes in this series. And if you're not a member of the Rest Is History Club, then you can join them by going to the restishistory.com to sign up. But for now, hasta luego.

Dominic Sandbrook (67:37)

Bye bye. Foreign. And welcome to the Book club, a new podcast from Goal Hanger, hosted by

Tabitha Syrett (67:53)

me, Dominic Sambrook, and me, Tabitha Syred. As some of you may know, I have been Dominic's producer on the Rest is History. And we even did a miniseries last year about all things books.

Dominic Sandbrook (68:04)

And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as it that's own show. So it'll be coming out every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

Tabitha Syrett (68:15)

And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

Dominic Sandbrook (68:33)

Now, you don't, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts, you'll do lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby the Odd laugh.

Tabitha Syrett (68:50)

We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like the Great Gatsby or Little Women, and then also some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, normal people, the Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.

Dominic Sandbrook (69:09)

So please join us on our journey into all things books. Wherever you get your podcasts, just search for the book club every Tuesday and hopefully we will see you there. Troy, the Odyssey, the Iliad. All of these great ancient epics depict a monumental collapse that destroyed the interconnected empires of 3,000 years ago. And to understand the Bronze Age apocalypse that homer wrote about 400 years after it happened, subscribe to Empire World History, a fellow goal hanger podcast where we are deep diving into the biggest imperial

Tom Holland (69:53)

collapse in ancient history.

Dominic Sandbrook (69:55)

To get a flavour of the series, here is a clip from our episode

Tom Holland (69:58)

with none other than Stephen Fry.

Stephen Fry (70:00)

It is one of my favorite subjects, the story of the Greeks and the siege of Troy and Odysseus return home. Of course I say Greeks. Homer called them the Achaeans, the Danaans, the Argives. The word Greeks is a much later one, but it refers really to the Mycenaeans, a warrior aristocracy essentially obsessed with honor and reputation that would give them an eternal glory. A kleos, as they call it. It's the Kios that's in the name of so many Greeks. You know Cleopatra and all, the Socrates, Heracles, who's Hercules, you know Hera's glory. He was actually named Heracles because she hated him, because he was a the love child of Zeus. And she never liked Zeus's love childs. Her husband, her errant husband. And so, as an attempt to placate her, Teiresias, because he was born in Thebes, suggested that he change his name as a baby. This was to Heracles, the glory of Hera.

Tom Holland (71:00)

It didn't help much.

Stephen Fry (71:01)

It didn't help at all. Athena even put her on Hera's breast when Hera was asleep because it would bond them if he suckled her milk. But she woke and saw it and tossed him away and her breast milk spread across the sky to form The Milky Way.

Tabitha Syrett (71:15)

I didn't know that story because Galaxy,

Stephen Fry (71:17)

of course, is from the Greek for milk, galactic, as in lactic. So the chocolate makers are right. Anyway, this is completely separate.

Dominic Sandbrook (71:24)

Lovely, though. Keep going. Don't stop. Well, we really hope you enjoyed that clip.

Tom Holland (71:29)

To hear more on the Bronze Age

Dominic Sandbrook (71:32)

apocalypse and how it shaped the ancient Greek epics, and just subscribe to Empire wherever you get your podcasts.

Anthony Scaramucci (71:40)

Anthony Scaramucci here. As much as I love talking politics and let's be honest, it sometimes gets me in trouble, my other and probably safer passion is books. We just dropped our 200th episode on my podcast, Open Book, another goal hanger show. And to celebrate, we spoke with none other than Waterstones and Barnes and Noble CEO James Dawn. Let's take a listen. It's a phenomenal piece of technology, James. Everything has changed. Our phones have changed, our computer, the way we look at the TV. The book is a 500-year-old piece of technology. You think in 500 years it'll be with us, James?

James Daunt (72:17)

I think so. And I think it's astonishing simply how extraordinarily durable it is and effective it is. And as you say, newspapers, we don't read them anymore. It's on your iPad, it's on your phone. Music. The format changes all the time. Not with books. And I think when publishers also concentrate on the physical attributes of a book as well, they are lovely things and treasures forever.

Anthony Scaramucci (72:39)

There may be too many books being

Dominic Sandbrook (72:40)

published right at this moment.

Anthony Scaramucci (72:41)

Do you believe that and tell us why?

James Daunt (72:43)

Far, far too many books. And it's getting ever, ever worse. This is speaking as a bookseller who crafts a physical space. So I only have so much space and there's more and more and lots of, and lots of self publishing. Nothing wrong with writing a book and wanting to see it out in the world. But for myself, I have to curate all the time. And the bit that I regret is that people get upset with me for not carrying their book. Well, I just can't. I don't have the space for it. And that's really what I mean. The fact that they sell on Kindle or they sell on Nook or online is fine by me. I want people reading, but I myself have to curate. And the reality is that I can't take the vast majority of books that are published.

Anthony Scaramucci (73:21)

I hope you enjoyed that clip. To hear more from James dawn and others, subscribe to Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci. Wherever you get your podcasts,