Dominic Sambrook (2:49)

Everything's awful. Yeah, he's had a brilliant time.

Tom Holland (2:51)

He's like the once at the end of the Lorax for Dr. Seuss fans.

Dominic Sambrook (2:56)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (2:56)

He's responsible for ruining everything.

Dominic Sambrook (2:58)

Yes. I mean, that's what he basically says himself, isn't it? Doesn't he, in that quotation. We've ruined everything. We arrived, we had a brilliant time, we ruined everything for everybody, and then we all died.

Tom Holland (3:07)

And is that a fair summary?

Dominic Sambrook (3:08)

Pretty much, yeah, pretty much. So this play, which was. We've used it a lot. I was actually in a production of it at school. It was the first play I was ever in, the first proper play I was ever in.

Tom Holland (3:18)

Who did he play? Please tell me. At a whelper.

Dominic Sambrook (3:21)

No, no, no, this is going to really. You're going to really enjoy this. I played Vicente de Valverde. Did you?

Tom Holland (3:28)

Dr. Valverde?

Dominic Sambrook (3:29)

Yeah, the deranged priest.

Tom Holland (3:32)

Yeah, I do enjoy that.

Dominic Sambrook (3:33)

So just on the play. The play is from in the 60s and it's very kind of anti imperial in its. In its themes, but its message, which is basically, you know, the whole thing has been a complete nightmare. It's charged with ambivalence and regret and horror. What's happened to Peru, its mess have been very familiar to the people who wrote the first accounts of the conquest in the 16th century.

Tom Holland (3:56)

Well, it ultimately comes from Bartolome Las Casas, who we may be hearing from.

Dominic Sambrook (4:02)

Well, not just Las Casas, though. So it's not just churchmen and stuff who are writing this. People who had gone on the very, very first, you know, missions with Pizarro. When they write accounts of it, they. Then it's not all jubilation and glory at all.

Tom Holland (4:17)

No, but this is the. I mean, this is an English play by an English writer.

Dominic Sambrook (4:21)

Yeah, the Black Legend of Spain.

Tom Holland (4:22)

Yeah, it's kind the bloodstream of Protestant countries, doesn't it?

Dominic Sambrook (4:26)

It definitely does, but they don't get it from nowhere. They get it from the Spanish themselves. So where are we now? We are in the middle of 1537. Atahualpa is dead, the civil war is over and his successor, Manco has fled Cuzco for the jungle of the Vilcabamba Valley. And among the Spanish themselves, they're now up to about 4,000 in total. So still a really tiny number, but increasing all the time. Any pretense of unity has completely collapsed. So the conquistadors are effectively divided between Francisco Pizarro in Lima and Diego de Almagro, his business partner. In Cuzco, the divide that has been there since the very first episode of this series. And we ended last time by setting the scene for the showdown between these three characters. Manco in the jungle, Almagro in the Andean highlands and Pizarro on the coast. And let's start with the man who you might anticipate at this point is the favorite. And I think that's Almagro, because Almagro is in charge and Cusco in the capital. So to remind people just about his personality, we described him in the first episode. Almagro is a short man, he's ugly, he's very hardy and resilient. His body covered in scars. He is a conceited, boastful man who dresses very flamboyantly. He's always been bitter because he feels like Pizarro has shut him out. He's gone off to Chile and absolutely disgraced himself by walking around with chain gangs full of people half dead, half alive. He has taken Gonzalo and Hernando Pizarro prisoner now in Cusco. And he is ready to win the whole game. What he wants to do is to march on the coast and deal with Pizarro. But he daren't leave Cusco undefended with Manco just over the mountains in the jungle. So first he thinks, well, we'll deal with Manco first. He sends troops to go and hunt Manco down. And he gets his lieutenant to do this. His lieutenant is a very dashing young conquistador who we haven't met before in this story, who is called Rodrigo orgones. He's leading 300 horsemen and foot soldiers. So Manco has gone over the mountains and his men have tried to block the roads behind the matrees. And they've left some troops rearguard to slow the pursuit. But Argones makes light work of the enemy and he crosses the Urubamba River. And he chases Manco towards the town of Vitkos in the jungle where Manco has taken refuge. And when orgonyes men get to Vikhos, what they find actually saves Manco's life. I would say. So Manco has already moved on from the town. But in the town the Spanish find two things they love finding. One is a temple with a giant golden image of the sun, which they immediately get to busy looting. And the other is a load of terrified, kind of Vestal Virgin style princesses. The Spanish as so often let themselves down. They can't, you know, they can't restrain themselves. Instead of pressing on, they spend Hours hanging around Vikos, behaving badly. And meanwhile, Manco, with his high priest, Vilak Umu, who's his brother and his most. The most devoted of his wives and a handful of followers. He heads on into the forest. Orgonez pursues him with his fastest horseman. But night's falling now and they can't find any trace of Manco in the jungle. And Orgones goes back to Vikos for the night. And there he finds orders from Almagro already saying, come back to Cusco. I need you back here at once. Now, why does Almagro want him to come back? Because envoys have just arrived from Francisco Pizarro in Lima to try to settle the feud between them. And Almagro thinks, okay, well, if this is the moment of decision, I want my best guy back at hand. So that's great news for Manco. Manco's now got away and he can kind of compose himself and prepare to fight back. Meanwhile, while he's doing that, the feud between Almagro and Pizarro is reaching the moment of decision. So, mid September 1537, Almagro leads his troops out of Cusco, heading for the coast and Dominic.

Tom Holland (8:36)

The coast is a huge advantage that Pizarro has had over Almagro, isn't it? Because from the coast he can receive reinforcements, but also he can write letters to the king in Spain giving his side of the argument. And poor old Amalgre, stuck up in Cuzco, hasn't been able to do either of those things.

Dominic Sambrook (8:54)

Exactly. Almagro, you could argue in a weird way, although I think he started as the favorite, you know, the longer this goes on, the more it benefits Pizarro, precisely because of Pizarro's links with the outside world, because Pizarro is controlling those links, you know, and as you say, people arriving all the time, supplies from Spain, guns, crossbows, general stuff, but also you're in charge of communications back to the court. And of course, all through this story, the mad legalism of the Spanish, you know, judges are always pronouncing verdicts, indictments are being handed down. They're very American in that sort of respect.

Tom Holland (9:30)

And I mean, Pizarro's possession of Lima, therefore, is actually an enormous advantage for him. And so Amalgro, he's got plans to set up his own town, hasn't he?

Dominic Sambrook (9:38)

He.

Tom Holland (9:38)

And call it Almagro. Yeah, of course, which is kind of sweet, I guess.

Dominic Sambrook (9:43)

So Almagro brings with him, remember, he's got the two brothers hostage, Hernando and Gonzalo, he brings Hernando with him, but he leaves Gonzalo behind and Cusco as a prisoner. This is the first of three terrible mistakes by Almagro, because as soon as he's gone, Gonzalo breaks out of the tower and escapes. So that's mistake number one. Almagro arrives at the coast. Here, a mendicant friar called Francisco de Bobadilla has been appointed to arbitrate between him and Pizarro. And basically the issue that the feud has boiled down to is who controls the city of Cusco? Does it fall in New Castile, Peru, which is Pizarro's? Or does it fall in New Toledo, China, Chile? Which would mean it's Almagros.

Tom Holland (10:33)

And these negotiations don't go well, do they? Because there are Spaniards who say that the friar had been possessed by a demon who wished to show dissent among the Spaniards.

Dominic Sambrook (10:43)

That's possibly true.

Tom Holland (10:44)

I'm guessing that they don't really patch things up.

Dominic Sambrook (10:47)

No, they don't. And another way of describing this demon inspired negotiation is that Almag, basically by this point, Pizarro and Almagro cannot stand each other. They absolutely despise each other. And Almagro, as soon as they start negotiating, massively loses the plot, has a colossal tantrum and a meltdown, and storms out. This is a great mistake because basically that leaves the friar surrounded by Pizarro and Pizarro's armed men. And the friar at this point says, okay, well, maybe I guess you should have Cuzco. Yeah, Actually, on reflection, I think Cuzco does belong to you. Pizarro is very shrewd throughout. I don't think he's at sort of Cortez levels of cold, slippery cunning. But Pizarro is a very good poker player. And Pizarro sends a message to Almaga and he says, look, you know, we've had our differences. I think it would only be fair to get a second opinion. You know, I don't want to claim the city straight away. I'd like to get a second opinion from a royal official. And I'm prepared to do that if you'll let my brother Hernando go. And if you let Hernando go, I promise I will send Hernando straight back to Spain. And Almagro, who must be the. I mean, given that he's a conquistador and that he's steeped in blood, he must be the most gullible person on the planet because he says, oh, yeah, okay, well, that sounds like a good deal. And he immediately releases Hernando, which means he's lost his leverage because now he doesn't have either of the Pizarro brothers hostage. And Hernando, does he head for the coast and go to Spain? Of course he doesn't. He immediately musters 700 Spaniards and thousands of native auxiliaries. Because remember, Orlando, Hernando has always, although he was the defender of Cusco, he was always the Spaniard who got on best with the locals. Remember, he'd gone on well with Atahualpa, he tried hard with Manco. He's clearly this. He's the most sort of sympathetic and the most diplomatic. The most diplomatic. Anyway, Hernando marches on Cuzco and Almagro's army is waiting for him. Almagro is not leading them, however. He's fallen ill, possibly, I think with syphilis, which I think reflects poorly on his general conduct. And his dashing deputy, Rodrigo Orgones, is in command. And now Orgones makes a mistake of his own. Almagro's army is very strong in cavalry and horses, and he basically is in charge of choosing the site for this battle to face Hernando's army. And he chooses the site of some old Inca salt mines. But the terrain is very broken and kind of jagged and rugged. Not good for horses, but it is good for Anando's army, which is mainly infantry and imperial gunmen, Arquebusiers.

Tom Holland (13:32)

And also the other thing it's very good for, because it's like a kind of an amphitheatre, natural amphitheatre is for spectators. And loads of natives turn up, don't they? And kind of cheer on both sides because they want all Spaniards to wipe each other out. If only both sides could lose.

Dominic Sambrook (13:50)

So basically, all everything that follows. You have to mention everything that follows in this episode. There's generally about 10,000 people watching from the hillsides and kind of cheering, eating snacks and kind of. It's the most tremendous spectator sport. So what follows? It's the 6th of April, 1538. It's called the Battle of Las Salinas, and it takes just two hours. And I've restrained myself throughout this series from quoting from this guy, but I'm going to finally give in and do it. There's a 19th century American historian called William H. Prescott, who Americans think is absolutely amazing, and he wrote the most tremendously florid account of the conquest of the Incas. And I'm going to. Well, actually, Tom, you do a sort of. You do this sort of 19th century voice very well, so why don't you read it. This is his account of the battle

Tom Holland (14:31)

the struggle was desperate for. It was not that of the white man against the defenceless Indian, but of Spaniard against Spaniard, Both parties cheering on their comrades with their battle cries of El Rey y Almagro or El Rey y Pizarro, while they fought with a hate to which national antipathy was as nothing, a hate strong in proportion to the strength of the ties that had been rent asunder.

Dominic Sambrook (15:05)

That's brilliant. There's people in 19th century America wiping away tears of manly emotion at that prose, aren't there? So anyway, this guy Argones, he fights, in the words of William H Prescott, like a paladin of romance. But then he's hit in the face by a shot from an arquebus and he's knocked off his horse. And he gets up, and by the time he gets up, he's surrounded by Hernando Pizarro's men and Argones, who clearly is just in the wrong century.

Tom Holland (15:34)

He's Don Quixote, basically, isn't he?

Dominic Sambrook (15:36)

Yeah, he's been reading too many chivalric romances and he says, is there a knight to whom I can surrender? And a bloke called Fuentes steps forward and he says, puts him in his hand, he says, you know, I'm a knight. He isn't. And Argones ceremoniously hands him his sword. Fuentes takes his sword, then he draws his knife and stabs organeas through the heart. And then they cut off his head and stick it on a pike and parade around the battlefield with his head on a pike.

Tom Holland (16:03)

Heart of darkness.

Dominic Sambrook (16:04)

Very heart of darkness. So at this point, Almagro's forces, they're sort of the flower of chivalry, who was leading them has basically been stabbed and had his head cut off. They all flee for Cusco, including Almagro himself, who's been watching in horror and in syphilitic agony from his litter. The Pizarro troops catch up with him and they lock him in the same tower in which he had imprisoned Hernando.

Tom Holland (16:26)

So poetic justice.

Dominic Sambrook (16:28)

Poetic justice. Just a side point on this battle, actually, the battle of Las Salinas. Apparently it's regarded as one of the last medieval battles decided with lances and cavalry charges.

Tom Holland (16:39)

Well, isn't that good news for the watching fans?

Dominic Sambrook (16:42)

Yeah, you turn up to watch a

Tom Holland (16:43)

battle and it's the last medieval battle.

Dominic Sambrook (16:45)

Right, because future battles will all be. There'll be loads of artillery and pikes and stuff. So much more early modern. But this is on old school battles, they put on an old school treat for the watching crowds, which is nice.

Tom Holland (16:55)

That's great.

Dominic Sambrook (16:57)

So for 10 weeks, Diego de Almagro, who thought he had it all, is rotting in prison, and then he's dragged out for trial. And I described him earlier as very naive and gullible, and I think he is, because he thinks, you know, we're going to have more negotiations, you know, this, it'll all be fine. And he is absolutely dumbfounded when Hernando Pizarro says to him, you're a rebel. You know, you're a traitor against the king. I proclaim the death sentence upon you. This is the end of you. And Almagro breaks down in tears. He begs for his life. He says to Hernando, suspend the sentence so that I can appeal to Charles V for pardon.

Tom Holland (17:32)

So that legalism again.

Dominic Sambrook (17:33)

Yeah, the legalism. You let the wheels of justice take their take time. And Hernando says to him, come on, this is very demeaning and unbecoming from you. Hernando said to him at one point, what do you think this is? What you know, what game do you think you're playing? He says, God gave you the grace to be a Christian, so please employ your remaining moments in settling your accounts with heaven, because you're for the chop. And the appointed day is 8th July, 1538. Hernando sends the executioner to Almagro's cell. The executioner goes in, he garrots Almagro, and then they drag his body outside, strip him naked, and then they cut off his head. So you might think this is the end of the Pizarro Almagro feud. Exciting news. It isn't. This is a proper vendetta and will go through the generations. We'll come back to this point. So now Cusco belongs to the Pizarros and to their new puppet. Now, you may remember that the end of the last episode, Almagro had a puppet called Paolu, a collaborator. Paulus men had fought for Almagro at Las Salinas. But as soon as they saw that the Pizarros had won, Paulo immediately switched sides. And he said to Hernando Pizarro, look, I was pals with Almagro. I served him very loyally. I'll serve you loyally now, if you like. And Hernando, who's a smart man, said, great, yeah, why not? Let's do it. So in return for collaborating, Paolu, the sort of fake emperor, they built him his own Spanish style townhouse. He got his own Spanish style landed estate. And they gave him a Spanish coat of arms. And I quote, a black eagle rampant, a gold puma, two red snakes, a red imperial fringe, the inscription Ave Maria and eight golden Jerusalem crosses.

Tom Holland (19:21)

That's too much action.

Dominic Sambrook (19:22)

I think that's great.

Tom Holland (19:23)

No, I think less is more.

Dominic Sambrook (19:25)

Do you?

Tom Holland (19:26)

Yeah, with a heraldic coat of army

Dominic Sambrook (19:27)

so you wouldn't fit in. In Peru, they think more is more. So Paolo ends up wearing Spanish clothes, he converts to Christianity and actually he disgraces himself in one way. He hands over to the Spaniards the mummified remains of his father, Huayna Capac.

Tom Holland (19:40)

God, he is a snake, isn't he?

Dominic Sambrook (19:42)

The last unchallenged Inca emperor, he hands them over and his. Apparently we're told that his mother and his other relatives sobbed and said, please don't hand this over. The Spanish will just burn it and destroy it. Which they did. And Paolo said, I don't care, I'm all about winning. And I have, I've won. So that's the end of that. And he did.

Tom Holland (20:00)

And Cusco itself is in a terrible way by this point because it's been kind of demolished, everything's been stripped off, it's been burnt by red hot slingshot. So an absolute, I mean, wasted.

Dominic Sambrook (20:11)

Well, if you go to Cusco today, Cusco is a very attractive city, but it's a Spanish colonial city.

Tom Holland (20:15)

There's nothing of the Incan city.

Dominic Sambrook (20:17)

There are bits. So there are bits of wall and stuff, there are bits of temple wall and things a little bit like in Mexico City. But by and large, what you're seeing is, you know, you're not seeing thatched houses that were built by the Incas. So what's happened to Manco? Paolus predecessor, half brother and now rival. Manco has been off in the jungle after his close shave at Vikos, and he now launches a series of attacks across the Andes. Tom, you'll enjoy this. He's particularly keen to punish tribes who have sided with the Spaniards. Your old friends, the Huanca. This is not good for the Huanca. They are brought back. He captures lots of them and brings them back into the jungle at Vikhos for punishment. And we're told his men tortured them in the presence of their women. So after the next couple of years, this degenerates into this colossal guerrilla campaign fought over a vast canvas. So the Pizarro brothers basically battling Manco's forces and other kind of native forces everywhere from the Andes down to Lake Titicaca, the great sort of plateau of Bolivia and So on these huge landscape,

Tom Holland (21:25)

but also fast distances, massive.

Dominic Sambrook (21:28)

I mean, we're talking about hundreds and

Tom Holland (21:29)

hundreds of miles over incredibly inhospitable terrain.

Dominic Sambrook (21:32)

Bonkers. One of the decisive battles, just give you an example. One example of how this works is a place in central Bolivia called Cochabamba. And there Gonzalo finds himself trapped in a valley by thousands of sort of Bolivian indigenous warriors. And he. It looks really dicey for him, but he's got with him Paulu and 5,000 indigenous warriors from Cusco, and he ends up winning. And it's a really good example of how much indigenous support mattered to the Spanish conquest, because one Spanish writer, Alonso de Toro, said, if Paolo had not been there, the Spaniards would have suffered heavily, and if he had chosen to be treacherous, few or none of them would have escaped. But Paulo has already decided, you know, the Spanish are going to win, so I'm going to stick with them. And he does, and they hold out and they basically end up wiping the floor with the people attacking them. So by the middle of 1539, I mean, we're only seven years after Pizarro marched into Cajamarca to meet Atahualpa, the Pizarros are actually pretty close to finishing the job. They pacified Ecuador, you know, they beat the bloke with his drum and whatnot. They've subdued most of Peru and Bolivia. They've got from Charles V the seal of approval, because Francisco Pizarro has been made a marquess and he's got a very.

Tom Holland (22:52)

A mad coat of arms.

Dominic Sambrook (22:53)

Yeah, Mad coat of arms that shows Atahualpa with a metal collar, with his hands plunged into two great chests of gold. So very on the nose, like Pizarro's not, but he's out and proud. Yeah. Basically a coat of arms that combines gold and garroting. Yeah. Which is what he's all about.

Tom Holland (23:15)

That sums it up, really, doesn't it?

Dominic Sambrook (23:16)

Yeah. What they haven't done there, the Pizarros, is find Manco. So Manco has retreated even deeper into the jungle. And we have a tremendous source. His son. Tito Cusi will come back to his son in the second half. His son is a great character, his son said of him. He returned to the town of Vikos and from there he went to Vilcabamba, so that's below Vikhos in the jungle, where he remained for some days. And he built houses and palaces to make it his principal residence, for it has a warm climate because it's deep in the rainforest. And Vilcabamba, which is sort of further down from Vikos was chosen for its remoteness and its safety. They thought there was basically no way the Spanish could find them in the heart of the jungle. And it's Vilcabamba that becomes the ultimate lost city of the Incas. So the site today is called Espiritu Pampa, but it's totally cut off. Like, you can't drive there. And actually, if anyone was interested, our friend Michael Wood, who's been on the Rest Is history, did a TV series in the 1990s called Conquistadors, and he did an episode about Peru, and he literally hacks his way through the jungle in the sort of second half of that episode to get to this site and kind of does pieces to camera from the ruins. It's really good telly and very sort of powerful. Anyway, so that's where manco is. In April 1539, the Pizarros decided they'd make another attempt to try and find him. And Gonzalo and Paulu set off from Cuzco with 300 men to track him down. And they were pretty confident they could get him. They thought he was hemmed in. There's no chance of escape, all this. They hack their way through the jungle, they survive an ambush by some Incas who roll boulders down the hill at them. That old boulder trick that the Incas are now very addicted to. And they think they've got him cornered in a jungle fort called Chuquiluska. But once again, Manco slips away.

Tom Holland (25:04)

It's very.

Dominic Sambrook (25:05)

I mean, this is very Hollywood. He ends up swimming across a river to escape them. And then he gets out of the river. He stands on the other bank and he taunts them across the river, and he shouts at them, I am Manco Inca. I am Manco Inca. I have already killed 2000 Spaniards. One day I will kill the rest of you and I will take back the lands of my forefathers.

Tom Holland (25:26)

So he's got away, but his sister, wife, Cura Oklo, who we heard about in the previous episode, seized, raped. Horrible. Even worse things now happen. And again, you know, if you've got your children with you, watch out.

Dominic Sambrook (25:46)

So, basically, yes, you're right. Gonzalo Pizarro had taken a fancy to her in Cusco and had behaved poorly. She's had a terrible time now they catch her again and they drag her back to the sacred valley. And basically, all the way, they keep trying to rape her again. And her nephew, Tito Cuzzi, said she defended herself fiercely throughout, and she covered her body with filth. I Think we know what he means. So that the men who were trying to rape her would be nauseated. She defended herself like this many times during the journey. So they get back and Francisco Pizarro wants to use her as a hostage to get Manco to surrender. And he sends messengers to Manco with gifts of a pony that he's imported over the sea and some silk, some nice silk. And he says to Manco, come on, you know, give yourself up and I'll let your wife go. Manco kills all the people bringing the messages. He says, I'm not. I'm not, you know, we don't. We don't do deals with terrorists. And Pizarro is furious, and he decides to take his revenge on Kura Oklo, Manco's wife. They strip her naked and they tie her to a stake. And there, we're told, she is beaten and abused by Kanyari Indians. So native allies. And her last words are quoted as, hurry up and put an end to me so that your appetites can be fully satisfied. They shoot her with arrows. They put her body in a basket and they float it along the river into the jungle to Manco. And Titu Cusi says Manco wept and made great mourning for her, for he loved her very much. But Manco never does give himself up. And we'll find out what happens to him after the break. But before that, let's move on two years to the summer of 1541. Enter the Pizarros. So they're now for what, nine years since they met Atahualpa. And they look like they've won. Francisco is the governor in Lima. Gonzalo is his lieutenant governor in Quito in Ecuador. And Hernando has gone back to Spain to represent them at court. Francisco, the man we began this whole series with, the man from nowhere, you know, the wild west of Spain and Trujillo. He's 63 years old. He's one of the richest men in the world. He has achieved his dreams more completely even than his cousin, Hernan Cortes. As one chronicler, Lopez de Gomara, says, he had found and acquired more gold and silver than any of the many Spaniards who crossed to the Indies. And more than any commander in the history of the world. I think that possibly is true. I mean, colossal quantities. The amazing thing about Pizarro. Pizarro, remember, illegitimate, illiterate. He was a young man as a boy, herded pigs. He has achieved all this by, of course, ambition and violence, but also by cunning and kind of cool, shrewd calculation. He's not a lovable man, that's for sure, but he's not as slippery as Cortez is, and he's not as bloodthirsty as Pedro de Alvarado. And the weird thing about Pizarro, as historians so often say, is he lacks the sort of driving motivations of a

Tom Holland (28:52)

lot of conquistadors, which is the lust for gold, the desire to convert to Christianity.

Dominic Sambrook (28:57)

Right. All through this series, right, there's been very little about Christian conversion. You know, we haven't had accounts of the Spanish destroying temples out of zeal or insisting that their collaborators become Christians.

Tom Holland (29:11)

You've had kind of. You've had priests watching with interest as people bow towards the sun.

Dominic Sambrook (29:17)

Exactly. And Pizarro sets the tone for this. He appears to be generally pretty uninterested in this kind of thing. The amazing thing is, for a man who's been driven by the pursuit of gold, he's very uninterested in spending it, so we're told. He didn't like fine food, he didn't like fine wine. He doesn't like hunting particularly. He wears the same old clothes he's always worn. He spends his spare time just hanging around in his orange orchard that he's had built and basically playing quoits for pennies with ordinary Spanish soldiers. So what has driven him all this time? What has made him tick? What has made him risk everything? Adventure, glory. I mean, obviously he likes having the gold, but he doesn't particularly want to spend it. He doesn't want to live a luxurious life. We just do not know, I mean,

Tom Holland (30:05)

whether it's a fault of the sources or whether it's a reflection of his personality. But he's a much less vivid character than Cortez, isn't he?

Dominic Sambrook (30:12)

Yes, absolutely. And I think. But I think that's exactly what he was like. I think there's something opaque. Opaque, possibly even a bit dull. There's nothing especially likable. Although, actually, the other conquistadors generally did find him likable. They said he doesn't have, you know, he's not as untrustworthy as Cortez is. I mean, obviously, if you're Diego d', Almagro, you might disagree, but by and large, he's neither lovable nor. But especially loathsome by conquistador standards. He is, as you say, just dull.

Tom Holland (30:43)

Bit vanilla, so.

Dominic Sambrook (30:44)

But in the summer of 1541, he hears some slightly worrying news in Spain. His brother Hernando has been indicted for the execution of Almagro. This is always the way with the Spaniards. And he's being held in the Alcazara, the castle in Madrid. And it's a reminder to Pizarro, you know, you can be very successful as a conquistador, but you're never entirely secure. And at the same time, he starts to hear rumors of unrest from the streets of Lima. Remember that Almagro had been the standard bearer for people who felt they'd arrived too late and they'd been left out, and they hadn't shared in all the booty of the Pizarros. And they feel resentful and frustrated and bitter. And people like that, who, of course, are arriving all the time now, have a new champion. And this is a young man who was born to a native woman in Panama and has arrived in Peru. And he's nicknamed El Mozo, El Mozo the boy, but his real name is Diego de Almagro. He is the son of Pizarro's old rival. And in June 1541, the mayor of Lima says to Pizarro, this young man, you know, his father's son, you know he's out for revenge. He's planning a coup to assassinate you at mass. And Pizarro says, what? In Lima? Lima's my city. I'm the big man. Nothing will happen. I don't. I don't have anything to fear from this boy. Then on Sunday 26th June, that morning, he hears reports of trouble. People tell him that there are men outside Almagro Younger's house, and they're shouting, down with the traitor. Down with the tyrant. I. E. Pizarro. And he thinks, okay, well, to be on the safe side, I'll say that I'm ill and I won't go to mass. And this afternoon I'll go and get my cavalry. We'll ride into the city and we'll capture this little brat and we will punish him. So the hour of mass comes, and Almagro and his friends wait for Pizarro outside the cathedral. But obviously, Pizarro doesn't come. They get one of their number, who's a Basque priest, and they say, go to Pizarro's house, Find out what's going on. The priest goes to Pizarro's house, and Pizarro, very naively, actually says to the priest, oh, come on in. You know, actually, you can celebrate Mass here if you like. So they start celebrating Mass. Meanwhile, the other conspirators all pile down to Pizarro's house, about 40 of them. They start making a great racket outside the House banging on the door and shouting and stuff. Pizarro sends one of his friends to find out what's going on. At about this point, Pizarro's servants, who are indigenous people, like, scrambling out of the windows and stuff. This is absolutely insane. Why is he so blithely oblivious to all this? Clearly, these men mean us nothing but ill. And at this point, doors of Pizarro's mansion crash open and Almagro the Younger's men burst in. And Pizarro grabs a sword and a dagger and he stands there in the doorway. Remember, he's in his 60s, but the attackers are on him right away. He cuts the first one down, but the men behind him are too strong. They slash at Pizarro's body and one of them stabs him in the throat and he falls to the ground. And then one of the attackers, Juan Borregan, wrote this account. When the Marquis had fallen wounded to the ground, he made the sign of the cross over his mouth with his fingers and begged confession for his sins. But I took an urn that was full of water and smashed it down onto his crossed fingers. And I said to him, in hell, you will have to confess in hell. It was a big jar and it broke his face. And with that great blow, the Marquis breathed his last. So that night, Pizarro's mangled body is buried behind the cathedral. And that is the end of the man who masterminded the conquest of the Incas. So with that, everything changes again. So now you have in Lima, Almagro the Younger. He's parading through the streets and he's shouting, I am the new master of Peru. But you still have one Pizarro brother left in South America. That is Gonzalo, who is in Quito. He's gonna want revenge. And of course, in his jungle there you have Manco Inca, who is planning one last comeback.

Tom Holland (34:57)

So, Dominic, would you say still all to play for?

Dominic Sambrook (35:00)

Absolutely. All to play for, Tom. Yeah, I mean, mad to stop listening now?

Tom Holland (35:04)

Yeah, you'd be completely mad. So come back after the break for the thrilling final chapter of this epic and blood soaked saga. This episode is brought to you by Vanguard. Now, Dominic, history is full of examples of people who are promised the world and then got very badly let down. Can you think of a particular example?

Dominic Sambrook (35:31)

I can. I can think of a couple of examples, Tom. So we've just been recording a series about the fall of the Incas and Francisco Pizarro, who was the Spanish conquistador in charge. First of all, he betrayed his business partner, Diego de Almagro. And then shockingly, he betrayed the Inca emperor Atahualpa.

Tom Holland (35:48)

Well, Dominic, can I ask you a question? Had Atahualpa been in the hands of Vanguard, do you think that Vanguard would

Dominic Sambrook (35:53)

have let him down? No, the thing about Vanguard, Vanguard was founded on one core principle. And that principle is putting investors first. Tom, for more than 50 years, Vanguard have been delivering on that promise for millions of clients worldwide.

Tom Holland (36:07)

And do you know what's brilliant? You too can open an ISA or a self invested personal pension and you can choose Investors investments yourself or you can let Vanguard choose and manage them for you. So search Vanguard Investor to find out more. When investing your capital is at risk and tax rules apply, your planet is now marked for death.

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Dominic Sambrook (36:53)

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Tom Holland (37:02)

Hello and welcome back to the Rest Is History. So the two principal characters in our story are Pizarro and Almagro, the business partners whose relationship stretch right the way back to episode one, whose bloody vendetta has laid waste to Peru. They are both now dead. Their vendetta has cost both of them their lives. And I guess, Dominic, the big question is, where does that leave the struggle for supremacy in Peru, which is by now war ravaged, smallpox scarred, ransacked of gold and silver in a very, very poor way.

Dominic Sambrook (37:43)

Yes, exactly. So we've still got our two rival Inca emperors. We still have Paolu and Cusco with his lovely coat of arms that you think is a bit too garish.

Tom Holland (37:54)

It's busy.

Dominic Sambrook (37:55)

So he doesn't die horribly. He lives peacefully till about 1550 and then he dies of old age or illness in his bed.

Tom Holland (38:04)

In his bed. I mean, unheard of.

Dominic Sambrook (38:06)

He has no legitimate children. And the Spanish don't bother, you know, proclaiming a successor. By this point, the Inca empire has been consigned to history. Really. So they think, well, we don't even need a puppet, you know, who cares? Now there's also Manco in Vilcabamba, in the jungle he's kept out of the civil wars. He's just watching, hoping they all lose, which they kind of are. So he's waiting. But people who enjoy confusing Spanish vendettas will be pleased to hear that this particular one is actually not quite over, because it simply moves to the next generation. So the Pizarro's champion is Gonzalo. Gonzalo. We described him in episode one, the Spanish Chronicle, saying, handsome, popular, virtuous, easygoing, but he's behaved disgracefully throughout this series.

Tom Holland (38:52)

That wasn't his vibe in the previous episode.

Dominic Sambrook (38:54)

Not at all. Now, he has been doing something very fun. He has been searching for the mythical land of Cinnamon in the Amazon, and he went there with a guy called Francisco de Orellana. And if you've ever seen one of our stage shows, particularly in Australia, you may remember that Orellana went all the way down the Amazon, didn't he? He met people who'd invented Wellington boots or something. I can't remember all the details.

Tom Holland (39:16)

And this is the first kind of real great quest for El Dorado, isn't it?

Dominic Sambrook (39:20)

Exactly. Gonzalo went back to Quito, to the lilt of the Spanish guitar, and there he heard the news of his brother's death and he took over leadership of the Pizarro clan. So he's there. In Ecuador, the Almagristas, as they are called, are delighted with life. Now they're in control of Lima under Almagro the Younger. And Almagro the younger, who's just 22, says, well, I'm now the governor of New Castile. Brilliant. I've won. This does not go down well with Charles V. People aren't watching this in Spain and saying, well, this is actually tremendous behavior. Our conquistadors have behaved incredibly well. Charles V, who is a very. He's quite a boring man himself, isn't he? For one of the most powerful men who ever lived. Charles V gets these reports at his desk and says they're just all murdering each other and proclaiming that they're the governor. I'm. I'm in charge of choosing the governor. And he's already sent a special investigator to call Vaca de Castro to South America.

Tom Holland (40:18)

I mean, that's a tough gig, isn't it?

Dominic Sambrook (40:19)

I think it's a terrible gig. I think it's actually a terrible gig. I mean, if you're a judge in Spain and you're.

Tom Holland (40:24)

You've got to get sort out between these two thuggish clans.

Dominic Sambrook (40:28)

Exactly. You definitely don't want to do that. Vaca de Castro gets to Peru and there he's told that Pizarro has been murdered. And Charles V had said to him, if something like that happens, you become the governor yourself and sort it Out. So Vaca de Castro does precisely that. He lands in Peru and he says, this is absolutely intolerable. He raises the royal standard and he says, I'm out for blood against Almagro Junior and they have a showdown outside what is now the city of Ayacucho in central Peru. The Battle of Chupas in September 1542. Now, this is a much more modern battle than the one we had in the first half. So there's all kinds of arquebuses, there's light artillery. It's sort of proper early modern stuff.

Tom Holland (41:10)

And crucially, pikes. And these pikes disembowel the horses and I kind of, I guess, illustrate to the Incas what they've been missing out out on.

Dominic Sambrook (41:19)

Yeah, the Incas didn't have pikes and they thought only they had pikes. It would be a very different story. Now, one of the guys who dies at this battle is a familiar name to people who listen to the first part of the series. He's the Greek bloke, Pedro de Candia from Crete.

Tom Holland (41:31)

Yeah.

Dominic Sambrook (41:31)

Remember him?

Tom Holland (41:31)

Yeah.

Dominic Sambrook (41:32)

So he had fired the artillery signal that marked the kidnapping of Atahualpa, and

Tom Holland (41:37)

then he'd gone off on a kind of proto El Dorado quest, which had gone horribly wrong.

Dominic Sambrook (41:42)

Exactly. And he's fighting in this battle for Almagro the Younger. And do you know who kills him? I mean, given the way the Spanish behave, people can probably anticipate the guy who kills him is Almagro the Younger. He kills him for, and I quote, treachery in not firing his cannon sufficiently vigorously. So you basically. You don't want to be involved in this business at all.

Tom Holland (42:06)

I think you don't want to be involved with the Almagro guys.

Dominic Sambrook (42:09)

I mean, they're terrible. The Royal army under Vaca de Castro wins a huge victory. And Vaca de Castro says, I'm going to lay down the law now. No prisoners. And we're told, told the ditch under the scaffold was full of dead bodies. And then, brilliantly, this gave considerable pleasure to the native onlookers, I bet. Although they were amazed to think that many of the victims had been captains holding posts of honour. So, again, huge spectator sport.

Tom Holland (42:34)

Yeah, you've got to get your pleasures where you can.

Dominic Sambrook (42:35)

Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So Almagro Jr gets away, he flees to Cusco with a friend of his called Diego Mendez, and their plan is actually they'll head on from Cusco to take refuge with Manco. Right. Another twist, because Diego Mendes is clearly a bit of a dog. Because he dallies in Cusco for a final visit to his mistress and that slows them down. They're overtaken in the valley by a posse from Cusco and they're dragged back to Cusco. Mendez is imprisoned. Almagro Jr. Is taken to the central square. He's tried for rebellion. He is unsurprisingly grotted and then he's beheaded. So that is the definitive end of Almagro. Now this bloke Mendez, who'd been his pal, he ends up escaping and he teams up with six other fugitives from the Almagro faction. And they do manage to get over the mountains to Vilcabamba and to Manco. Now, some of Manco's captains, when these blokes turned up, they said, oh really? The Almagristas, you know, just kill them, just get rid. These people are always trouble. And Manco, I think it's weird how everybody in this entire story at some point is guilty of crass naivety. After 10 years of this mad backstabbing, they say, what could go wrong? I trust him.

Tom Holland (43:57)

They seem nice.

Dominic Sambrook (43:59)

Yeah. Manco says, well, they can teach us to ride horses and to fire their Spanish weapons. So he puts them up in his so called palace in Vikos. This is the sort of courtyards on a promontory overlooking the valley. And Titu, Cusi, Manco's son, says, my father ordered they should have houses in which to live. He ordered his own women to prepare their food and drink. He took his meals with them. He treated them as if they were his own brothers. So with that, I think our listeners can guess what's coming. So two years later, these are Magristo refugees get a secret message from Cuzco. Basically, the new authorities in Peru will forgive you if you can murder Mancos. And they discuss this and one of their female servants hears them discussing it. And the servant tells Manco's commanders and they tell Manco and Manco again. He says, no, I don't believe they would do this. He says, I think you've made this up. I think you've actually made this up because you want me to get rid of these Spaniards and you so that you can have their weapons for yourself. I'm not gonna fall for that one. My guests would never betray me in this way. And then what happens next? Insane. And this is an account by a guy called Juan de Betanzos. He says they decided to have a game of quoits. They hoped the Inca would wish to play with them at this game, as he usually did. This has my single favorite detail, by the way, from the whole series. Then, while playing, they would concoct a quarrel with him and gang up to kill him. They. They hid daggers in their boots. They hid many bread rolls up their sleeves to eat in the jungle. When they esc. I think that's a massive giveaway, frankly. If a bloke turns up and his sleeves are stuffed with bread rolls, you know you're in trouble. They start playing this game. They part ben quoits. It's basically throwing horseshoes. Manco says, I don't want to play. I'm not in the mood.

Tom Holland (45:47)

And also, what have you got? Why you got all those bread rolls up your sleeves?

Dominic Sambrook (45:51)

What's going on here? I mean, why someone like the Coen brothers haven't made a film of this? I do not know. Anyway, they start playing the. The. The coits. They feign having an argument over at a foul throw. Manco moves into the referee. And then one of them, Gomez Perez, took out his dagger and plunged it into the Inca's chest. And the terrible thing is that one of the people watching this is Manco's son, Tito Cusi, who was nine years old and who wrote this or dictated this very evocative account of what followed. My father, feeling himself wounded, tried to defend himself, but he was alone and unarmed, and there were seven of them with knives. He fell to the ground, covered with wounds, and they left him for dead. I was only a small boy, but seeing my father hurt, I wanted to go and help him, but they turned furiously upon me and hurled a spear which only just missed me. I was terrified and hid among some bushes. They searched for me, but failed to find me. And maybe you'll know this better than me, but I can't think of many accounts from the 16th century or earlier of something like this that are quite as personal, you know, by somebody's son telling the story firsthand about the terror and the horror of that kind of moment.

Tom Holland (47:05)

Is he writing this in Spanish?

Dominic Sambrook (47:07)

He's dictating it to a missionary, to a Spanish missionary who wrote it all down. So basically we have Tito Cuzzi's account of the entire conquest given dictated by him to Spaniards who came to visit him later on.

Tom Holland (47:20)

It gives you a sense of if that is the kind of standard for Incan narrative.

Dominic Sambrook (47:26)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (47:26)

How badly we've missed out on not having other such eyewitnesses.

Dominic Sambrook (47:29)

Just a very straightforward kind of account. I mean, what he doesn't mention is whether they had bread rolls falling out of their sleeves as this happened.

Tom Holland (47:35)

But, well, he was very young, wasn't he?

Dominic Sambrook (47:37)

Maybe he thought that was standard for a Spaniard.

Tom Holland (47:38)

Yeah, well, they could have been doing it for weeks before to lull him into a full sense of security.

Dominic Sambrook (47:42)

Of course, that's proper planning, isn't it? Yeah, sort of secreting tapas around their boccadillo. Yeah. So anyway, these guys, they run into the jungle, I mean this is stupid plan, the coits and all that. How they thought they could get away with this, I do not know. They're chased into the jungle by Manco's bodyguards. They end up being cornered in a thatched hut, rather like John Wilkes Booth. So loads of Incas appear outside Boston Corbett style. They pile up wood, they set it on fire. Any of the Spaniards who come out shot with arrows and the rest are all burned alive. And that's the end of the assassins and sadly the end of poor Mancos. So he was embalmed, he was taken down the hill to Vilcabamba and he was housed in the Temple of the sun there. And actually most Spanish sources were very damning about his murder. They didn't see his assassins as heroes, they saw them as cold blooded traitors. And actually most of the Spanish sources saw Manco as pretty admirable, you know, a noble adversary. And historians have been very kind to him by and large. Clearly he was a, you know, he was a resilient and courageous man who inspired people to stick with him and not to collaborate. John Hemming calls him an indomitable patriot. The only native prince whose royal lineage and stubborn courage enjoyed the respect of Spaniards and Indians alike. And I have to say he's probably one of the very few admirable characters from this entire series. With Manco's death, any chance of a serious native fight back pretty much disappears. So we're now 1544, 12 years after Pizarro's arrival and the Spanish supremacy is largely unchallenged. So most of the land now of the former Inca empire is divided between about 500 Spanish landowners. They build these large stone mansions in Spanish colonial settlements, places like Lima or Trujillo, which is also on the coast, full of hangers on. They import European horses, they import African slaves and Spanish women to be their wives. Gold has by now pretty much all gone, it's gone back to Europe. So these guys live on proceeds from their massive estates there in Comiendas. Now there are people arriving all the time from Spain at this point, you know, hundreds of people who don't have gold and who don't get estates. And they are very impatient and resentful, and they take it out on the locals. And the reports back to Spain that the rabble, as they are called, are behaving very badly. They're taking local people as slaves and all of this kind of thing. And this is the context, in company with the protests of clergymen like Las Casas, who you mentioned before, who is

Tom Holland (50:19)

now on the Royal Council by this point.

Dominic Sambrook (50:21)

Exactly. So this is the context for what are called the new laws of the early 1540s. So this is Charles V responding to these complaints, and he says, no more abuses. Stop giving out indigenous people's land and giving out indigenous people themselves as workforce, our colonial officials. It should be a priority for them to look after inadverted comma's Indian welfare. We should treat them as equal subjects of the Spanish Crown, you know, basically be a bit kinder.

Tom Holland (50:50)

And specifically, no slavery. So neither because of war, even under the category of rebellion, nor by barter, nor for any other cause in any other way, may any Indian be made a slave.

Dominic Sambrook (51:00)

Exactly. At the time, lots of sort of churchmen said, great, this is exactly what we. We want. Historians, of course, think very highly of the new laws because they're a step in a more liberal direction. But at the time, Spanish settlers in the Americas hated them. They were outraged. The things were heard by the people over here with great indignation. There was a wild tumult with the news flying from one part to another. So go woke and go broke. Right? Well, this is what happens, because Charles sends a viceroy to enforce the new laws in Peru in 1544. The settlers go ballistic. And their champion is a very familiar name. It is none other than Gonzalo Pizarro. He's now in his mid-30s and he thinks, finally, this is the chance to make myself the unchallenged strongman of Peru. He raises an army and he says, I'm going to use this against Vilcabamba, against the Inca, the little Inca kingdom. But actually, once he's raised it, he uses it to march on Lima. And this is such an interesting moment. In his book, John Hemming points out that this is basically a preview of so many rebellions in the Americas over the next few centur centuries.

Tom Holland (52:12)

Except that I guess that particularly in South America, the rhetoric will be that this is a campaign launched in aid of liberty from servitude, liberty from the

Dominic Sambrook (52:21)

oppression of the Crown.

Tom Holland (52:23)

But Pizarro is essentially doing this because he wants to restore servitude, well, for other people, which is also of course, I guess what the. The founding fathers also.

Dominic Sambrook (52:32)

Wait, we're about to get onto this. John Hemming. A home government had legislated too liberally on behalf of colonial natives. The colonists loudly protested their loyalty to Crown and mother, but demanded a free hand to exploit the territory that they had won and settled. So in other words, Tom, this is a dry run for the Tax revolt of the 1770s. And there is only one major difference between Gonzalo Pizarro and George Washington. And you know what that difference is? Gonzalo Pizarro had.

Tom Holland (53:03)

He had his own teeth.

Dominic Sambrook (53:04)

He had all his own teeth. He did not walk around with somebody with slave's teeth in his mouth. Also, Gonzalo Pizarro wasn't a massive hypocrite. It. So that's another big difference.

Tom Holland (53:13)

And you know someone else who, who had that perspective on the, the, the

Dominic Sambrook (53:18)

revolution in America, is it Dr. Johnson?

Tom Holland (53:20)

It's Dr. Johnson who will be appearing in our, our next series.

Dominic Sambrook (53:23)

Brilliant.

Tom Holland (53:24)

So it all links up because people

Dominic Sambrook (53:25)

at this point are thinking, well, enough of this. I want to hear about this Dr. Johnson guy. He sounds very sound. And as luck would have it, he'll be joining us on Monday. So Gonzalo Pizarro, the George Washington of Peru, he kills the viceroy and he marches into Lima as the master of Peru. We're told he was wearing a sumptuous outfit. It's always good to hear about the clothes. A sumptuous outfit of black velvet, gold plumes and jewels.

Tom Holland (53:47)

I mean, to be fair, George Washington, that's not his style.

Dominic Sambrook (53:50)

That's not his vibe at all. However, Gonzalo, by doing this, is basically is an open rebellion against the King of Spain. As we know from the American business. You know, once you've done that, you either have to go the whole way or not. There's no real halfway house. Charles V sends a new viceroy called Pedro de la Gaskill. And this says to this new viceroy, right, okay, scrap the WOKE laws. That hasn't worked at all. You know, as you said, Tom, we've been too liberal. Forget all that. However, we have to punish Gonzalo. You cannot, you know, rebel against the crown and kill the viceroy. So Gonzalo confronts the viceroy outside Cusco at a place called Chaquia Juana. But Gonzalo's men completely let him down. They all desert and he is taken prisoner. And he has one last final confrontation. This guy who's behaved consistently badly, I think, from episode one to episode six, Gasca says to him, you've been very Ungrateful to His Majesty. You Pizarros were nothing until he raised you from the dust and made you rich men. And Gonzalo, perhaps not entirely unfairly, says what we did, we did at our own expense. His Majesty did not lift us from the dust. The Pizarros have been gentlemen since the Goths came to Spain. That's a good line. If we were poor, well, that explains why we went out to win this empire and we gave it to His Majesty, though we might have kept it for ourselves. Joy, he reminds me of a little bit there. Lope de Gire. Do you not think there's a sort of the resentment of giving everything away to the Crown and all that kind of thing?

Tom Holland (55:20)

Yeah, I mean, you can definitely see where Guerrero, the Wrath of God comes from. I mean. And not least with all the garrotings.

Dominic Sambrook (55:25)

Exactly. It's the same thing. So between Lope de Gire, the madman, Gonzalo de Pizarro and George Washington, I mean, they've got a lot in common, those three men. That's a dinner party I don't want to go to, because George Washington would actually bore you to death before the others got a chance to garrotte you.

Tom Holland (55:41)

He'd show you his garden, wouldn't he?

Dominic Sambrook (55:43)

So Gonzalo ends up being executed in the main square of Cusco. Textbook execution. Confesses his sins, apologizes to the King, all of this, and that's the end of him. And that basically is the end of all of them. Them. They've all died violently after all that. The only exception is Hernando Pizarro. He was in prison, if you remember, in Madrid. He ended up being moved to another prison and he stayed there for 20 years. He was released in 1561 and then he died 17 years later, aged about 74.

Tom Holland (56:15)

Was he able to enjoy his wealth?

Dominic Sambrook (56:17)

I don't think so, really. I think a lot of it was probably confiscated and stuff, so.

Tom Holland (56:21)

So it was all for nothing.

Dominic Sambrook (56:22)

Well, let's talk about what it was, what it all meant for the people that have been slightly absent for this series, which is basically the people of the Andean region. So a guy we've quoted a lot, John Hemming. Brilliant, brilliant book on the conquest of the Incas, really. I can't recommend it too highly. He's very frank about what all this meant for the people of Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia. A total and utter demographic disaster. There are all kinds of accounts, including from that bloke I played on stage, Vicente de Valverde, writing to Charles V in 1539. I moved across a good portion of this land and saw terrible destruction in it. Having seen the land before, I could not help feeling great sadness. The sight of such desolation would move anyone to great pity. I mean, we don't need to go into all the sort of evidence and the quotations, but other Spanish writers describe how towns and villages are deserted populations, valleys where there were 40,000 people, there are now 4,000 people.

Tom Holland (57:16)

I mean, the key writer on this again is Las Casas, isn't it? Who in 1552, he. He writes this book, the Brief account of the Destruction of the Indies, in which Peru features very prominently. And he casts it as a kind of genocidal destruction of a paradise. And he casts the Incas as childlike, as peaceable, as never having committed any crime at all. And that is the narrative that then passes into Protestant countries and which Peter Schaffer, for instance, ends up inheriting and which I think is still very, very much part of the narrative in, say, English speaking countries completely.

Dominic Sambrook (57:58)

And it's part of that world, that sort of vibe of the panpipes are playing. Native spirituality in touch with nature, peaceful people, lovely textiles, all of that kind of thing that there's not the degree of truth in that, that. But as we established in episode one, to be ruled by the Incas was definitely not a barrel of laughs. I mean, they are pretty brutal. You know, they will deport you, they will deny you private property, they believe in forced labor, you know, massive chain gangs, all of this kind of thing. I'm not saying they're complete monsters, but they're not saints either.

Tom Holland (58:33)

But also just really important to emphasize that we know about the monstrous crimes of the conquistadors thanks to Spanish writers and Spanish moralists. And so that tension in attitudes to what the Europeans are doing in the Americas is there right from the beginning. It is not a kind of something specific to the 21st century to worry about this.

Dominic Sambrook (58:57)

No, I mean, just by the way you use the word or you mentioned genocide, and that's something that historians talk about a lot. I think it's not right to call this a genocide for this reason.

Tom Holland (59:06)

Yeah, but that's Las Casas rhetoric. I mean, Las Casas is providing these terms and these frames of reference.

Dominic Sambrook (59:12)

Of course, lots of people today, if you Google it online, there are lots of people who will bandy around terms like these, which I think are wrong, because most people probably died not because of Spanish violence, but because of disease by smallpox and measles. We'd already described the effect that they had in the Caribbean and in Mesoamerica, Central America and Mexico. The conquest, of course, follows the civil war.

Tom Holland (59:32)

Yes, the civil war is just as bad. Right?

Dominic Sambrook (59:33)

Yeah. Between them, the two of them destroyed Inca infrastructure. So the irrigation canals, the terraces, the roads on which the economy depended on as early as 1539, some Spanish writers are saying, you know, because basically armies are crisscrossing the land, taking people's food, people have nothing to eat. And as in the Caribbean, I think you have a massive sense of trauma and therefore a collapse in the birth rate of all people. Philip II of Spain wrote years later to the Archbishop of Lima, we have been informed that many people hang themselves, others allow themselves to die by not eating, eating. Others take poisoned herbs and mothers kill their babies at birth, saying they do it to free them from the hardships they suffer themselves. And that really reminds me of what people were saying about the Taino people in the Caribbean in the 1510s. There's this kind of cultural collapse which comes from the effect of colonization. And if you survive, your life is not much fun. So the survivors, because of the encomienda system, are subject to punishing work requirements. So about four out of five men in Spanish ruled Peru in the 16th century, a subject to forced labor. And as you said, Tom, and I think you're dead right to make this point, the criticism does not come from without. It comes from within, from Spanish people, you know, senior Spanish officials. So this is a guy called Fernando de Santillan, who was a royal official in Peru and Ecuador in the 1560s. I think it's a really telling quotation. He says when people are healthy, they work only for tribute. Even when they're sick, they're forced to pay their tribute in full. They have nothing left over for themselves. Their deep, deeply depressed by their misery and servitude. And they believe they must continue to work for the Spaniards for as long as they live. This is a Spaniard talking. Because of this, they despair. They ask only for their daily bread, and they cannot even have that. There are no people on earth so hard working, humble or well behaved, but they live the most wretched and miserable lives of any people on earth. And actually, do you know what the people he's talking about? The people in the fields, they don't even have the worst of it. The worst of it are the people who end up working in the mines, particularly the mine we mentioned before, the giant mine at Potos in Bolivia that opened in 1545. Tens of thousands of people were drafted there year after year. To work as forced laborers digging out silver. It ended up being called the mountain that eats men. And if you, you know, demographers, historians, argue about exactly how many people died in that mine at Cerro Rico in Potosi. I mean, the highest estimate is 8 million people. The lower estimates are still hundreds of thousands of people died in these mines. I mean, just unbelievable.

Tom Holland (62:18)

And the amount of silver produced from that.

Dominic Sambrook (62:21)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (62:21)

Will massively destabilize not just the economy of Spain, not just the economy of Europe, but the entire global economy. And you can start to. You can start talking about the global economy.

Dominic Sambrook (62:31)

You can. Thanks to this. Thanks to this, the silver is being shipped across to Spain. And as you say, the effects are rippling all through the world economy. There's a brilliant book on this by Charles c. Mann called 1493 about the world after the discovery of the Americas. So we'll just finish off by telling you what happened to the jungle kingdom of Vilcabamba. Manco was succeeded by his son, who was called Sari Tupac, who was 5 years old, and he ruled in Vilcabamba for the next few years. They just kept themselves to themselves. They were very quiet. We're talking about maybe a couple of thousand people in the jungle. In 1552, Cyri Tupac, who was then late teens, got a letter from again, of all people, Philip II of Spain. He wasn't quite Philip II then. He was a prince. But Philip said to him, listen, I know that your father, Manco was provoked into his uprising. Isn't it amazing, by the way, that Philip, of all people, is saying this? If you come out of your lair, I promise you a full pardon and will leave your little kingdom alone. But basically, I'd like you to come out. And this guy, Cyru Tupac, decided to accept. And he traveled down by litter to the coast. He was greeted in Lima by the viceroy with great honor. He was lodged in the Vice Regal palace. He was given. They said, you know, thanks for coming out. We'll give you a big estate in the sacred valley outside Cusco. And amazingly, I love this. Pope Julius III gave him special dispensation to marry his sister.

Tom Holland (63:56)

Yeah, I mean, he'll do it for the Inca, but not for Henry viii.

Dominic Sambrook (63:59)

Yeah. What's all that about? That's Paul from the papacy yet again. So the kingdom, the little, what they call the Neo Inca kingdom, survived under his older half brother who succeeded, who is Tito Cusi, the guy we've been hearing from this amazing source because he narrated this stuff to a Spanish missionary, Tito Cuzi, he actually is without any question the only basically, really, really good person in this whole story. So he ruled for basically a decade, the 1560s. And he said to his captains and whatnot, basically we should do nothing to provoke the Spanish. We'll just completely leave them alone. We'll stay here in the jungle and they'll leave us alone. And not only did he do that, he was very friendly to the Spanish. They would send missionaries and envoys and he enjoyed chatting to them. He allowed them to put up a cross, all of this kind of thing. He allowed them to pray, preach, he. He was baptized, although he continued to practice his own religion as well. And the Spanish reported that Tito Cusi was a sort of large, very jolly man. He was a joker. He liked a kind of a lot of feathers and nice cloaks and stuff like this. And John Hemings says basically if he had lived longer, Vilcabamba, and I quote, might have become an independent state under the direct protection of the Spanish crown. It might have related to Spanish Peru as Lesotho, Swaziland and Botswana related to South Africa. And Vilcabamba would now have a seat in the United Nations. That's a nice thought, isn't it?

Tom Holland (65:22)

It is, isn't it?

Dominic Sambrook (65:23)

But he doesn't live. He goes to visit his father's shrine where his father had been murdered in Vikos. He catches a chill. He then makes a terrible mistake. He decides to go on a massive drinking bout and gets absolutely wasted on chicha. And then he gets a fever and he dies. And he's succeeded by his brother who has probably better known name Tupac Amaru. Tupac Amaru was in his mid-20s and he was a disaster for the neo Inca state because he was much less skillful than Titu Cusi. He said Tito Cusi's death was all the Christians fault. Should never have allowed all those missionaries in and done all this. He kills a friar, he outlaws Christianity and he says, let's seal off Vilcabamba from the outside world. World. So the viceroy at the time was Geico Francisco do Toledo. And he sent an envoy to protest with letters protesting from the Pope and the King of Spain, Philip ii. Tupac Amaru did not welcome the envoy with open arms. He had him murdered on the border. The inevitable consequence. The Viceroy proclaimed Tupac Amaru an apostate, a homicide, a rebel and a tyrant. And he called for a liberal interventionist war of fire and blood.

Tom Holland (66:33)

I mean a war of foreign blood. Never good news.

Dominic Sambrook (66:35)

Never good news. The Spanish marched into the jungle in 1572, in June this time, they find it all pretty easy. The the Incas have fled into the jungle, but they track them down. They capture Tupac Amaru and they bring him back to Cusco together with the mummified remains of Manco and Tito Guzi. And Tupac Amaru is tried for rebellion. It's a show trial style, very like Atahualpas. And like Atahualpa, he converts to Christianity kind of in extremists, but just like Pizarro and Almagro, with the death of Atahualpa, the viceroy wants to get rid of him and he wants it done quickly. And so on the 24th of September 1572, the last king of the Incas is led out into the square in Cusco. We're told that he was riding a mule with trappings of black velvet and he himself was completely dressed in more morning. And as so often on these occasions there are colossal crowds. The Indians climbed the walls and roofs of the houses and even the many large hills that are visible from the city were full of Indians. And he goes up onto the scaffold. Tupac Amaru. As the multitude of Indians saw that their lord and Inca was to die, they deafened the skies, making them reverberate with their cries and wailing. And then he turns to the crowd and he says his last words in Quechua, Pachacamak. So the old creator God, see how my enemies spill my blood. And then with one blow, the executioner severed his head and held it high for all to see. And as the blow fell, the bells of the cathedral began to toll and they were followed by those of all the monasteries and churches in the city. The execution caused the greatest sorrow and brought tears to the eyes of all. And that was the end of the last of the Incas.

Tom Holland (68:25)

Thank you Dominic. What an incredible epic sweep. Thanks so much. A dark but I mean such a compelling story. And next week a complete change of tone. We are in 18th century London for the story of Samuel Johnson and James Boswell, one of the great friendships in history. And nobody I think is killed in the course of that series at all. So a real a change of flavor I think it's fair to say. And members of the rest is history club will get all four episodes of that on Monday. And if you're not a member, you know what to do. Sign up@therealstishistory.com but for now, thank you Dominic for an epic tale, epically told.

Dominic Sambrook (69:11)

Bye bye. Muchas gracias. Adios much Adam. Hello everybody, and welcome to the Book Club, a new podcast from Goal Hanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sambrook, and me, Tabitha Syred.

Tabitha Syred (69:32)

As some of you may know, I have been Dominic's producer on the Rest Is History and we even did a miniseries last year about about all things Books.

Dominic Sambrook (69:40)

And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show. So it'll be coming out every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

Tabitha Syred (69:52)

And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

Dominic Sambrook (70:10)

Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts, you'll do lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby the Odd Laugh.

Tabitha Syred (70:26)

We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice reflection trippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like the Great Gatsby or Little Women and then also some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, Normal People, the Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.

Dominic Sambrook (70:45)

So please join us on our journey into all things books. Wherever you get your podcasts, just search for the Book Club every Tuesday and hopefully we will see you there.