Alexander the Great, with Mary Beard

Summary

The Rest Is History: "Alexander the Great, with Mary Beard"

Hosts: Tom Holland & Mary Beard
Date: October 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Tom Holland engages renowned classicist Mary Beard in a thoroughly entertaining and incisive exploration of Alexander the Great—his life, conquests, reputation, and the myths surrounding him. Together, they unpick the complicated legacy of one of history’s most magnetic and polarizing figures, dissecting both the truth and the mythos that have entwined to make “Alexander the Great” a byword across cultures and centuries.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Myth and Reality of Alexander the Great

• Introduction to Alexander’s Paradox: Tom begins with a quote from the American poet Robert Lowell, capturing the contradiction and allure surrounding Alexander.
  • [00:28] Quote:

    “No one was like him. Terrible were his crimes. But if you wish to blackguard the great king, think how mean, obscure and dull you are. Your labours lowly and your merits less.”
    — Tom quoting Robert Lowell

• Mary’s Take on Alexander: Mary injects her trademark wit, acknowledging Alexander’s outsized and mythic status while being clear-eyed about his violence.
  • [01:45] “You can’t deny that Alexander the Great is worth looking at because so many people have, so many people have copied him. He’s become such a... mythic figure, not just in Western civilization, but actually, you know, throughout the world.”

2. Alexander as a Role Model?

• Tom pokes fun at using Alexander as a modern role model.
  • [02:24] Tom: “To what extent are the stories that we tell about Alexander actually likely to be true?”
  • [02:35] Mary (deadpan): “I dread to think of the fate of this country if we start using Alexander the Great as a role model. I'm looking for someone who's got a kind of bit clearer idea of what cooperation and collaboration might be...”

3. Macedon’s Place and Philip II’s Revolution

• Marginal Macedonia: Macedon is contextualized as a marginal power at the edge of Greece, not fully accepted as “Greek” by southern states.
  • [03:27] Mary: “I think that's being generous to Macedon, actually... There persist in being issues, you know, right up to now... whether we really thought...do we really think that Macedon is part of Greece or isn’t it?”
• Philip II’s Transformative Reign:
  • [04:29] Mary: “It’s not making any great shakes until Philip II from his capital at... Pella, actually exerts more or less control, both diplomatically, politically and militarily over the Greek world.”

4. Greece and Persia: Rivalry and Motivation

• The unfinished business of Greek-Persian conflict forms the backdrop of Alexander’s ambitions.
  • [06:13] Tom: “There are kind of two factors, perhaps, that would encourage someone in the Greek world to think that they could have a crack at Persia...”

5. Military Innovations and the Battle of Chaeronea

• Philip’s Military Genius:
  • Mary discusses Philip’s development of new military technology—particularly the phalanx and its long spears—which allowed Macedon to subdue Thebes and Athens.
  • [07:45] Mary: “It’s important that he has kind of developed military technology in a way that, as it turns out, has the beating of the Thebans and the Athenians... The Macedonians win a great victory. A place called Chaeronea, outside Thebes.”
• Alexander’s First Military Command:
  • [07:54] Mary: “Alexander is very young. He's only 18, I think, and he commands the cavalry there...”

6. Old Scores and the Backstory of Greek Unity

• The conquests are rooted in deep backstories of past enmities and shifting alliances among the Greeks and between Greece and Persia.
  • [08:00] Mary: “You can't really understand what's going on in the 4th century without seeing that old scores are being settled.”

7. Assassination, Succession, and Macedonian Politics

• Philip II’s Assassination: Sets the stage for Alexander’s sudden ascendance.
  • [08:33] Tom: “He’s conquered Greece and he’s gearing up to invade the Persian Empire, and then he gets assassinated. Alexander takes over and succeeds him as king.”
• Alexander’s Family Drama:
  • Mary vividly details the infighting among Philip’s wives, emphasizing Olympias (Alexander’s mother) and succession anxieties.
  • [09:03] Mary: “She [Olympias] is the most glamorous of Philip's wives and has some kind of religious affect with snakes. One thing that's really unusual about Philip... is that he has many wives... Macedonian monarchy is polygamous... it provides a lot of rivalry at the same time.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mary Beard on Alexander’s Influence:

  “He’s become such a... mythic figure, not just in Western civilization, but actually, you know, throughout the world.” [01:45]

• Tom Holland on Historical Narrative:

  “To what extent are the stories that we tell about Alexander actually likely to be true?” [02:24]

• Mary’s Deadpan Dismissal:

  “I dread to think of the fate of this country if we start using Alexander the Great as a role model.” [02:35]

• Mary on Greek Politics:

  “You can't really understand what's going on in the 4th century without seeing that old scores are being settled.” [08:00]

• Mary on Macedonian Succession:

  “Every monarch in the ancient world is always thinking of succession planning and never getting it right.” [10:21]

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Segment Timestamps

• Opening & Introduction to Alexander – 00:00–02:00
• Alexander as Myth and Role Model – 02:00–03:00
• Macedon’s Status and Philip II – 03:00–05:00
• Rise of Macedon & Greek-Persian Politics – 05:00–07:00
• Military Reforms, Chaeronea, and Greek Submission – 07:00–08:30
• Assassination and Succession Intrigue – 08:30–10:30

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Tone and Style

The episode is marked by Tom’s enthusiastic, curious questioning and Mary’s erudite yet playful and occasionally sardonic responses. They balance myth-busting, historical nuance, and dry humor throughout, offering both scholarly insight and lively repartee.

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Conclusion

This episode provides listeners with a brisk yet rich dive into the complexities of Alexander the Great’s legacy—illuminating the overlapping realms of myth and realpolitik, violence and charisma, as well as the family intrigue that shaped the house of Macedon. Mary Beard’s blend of authoritative knowledge and skeptical wit shines throughout, making for an engaging exploration that questions both the myth and meaning of “Greatness.”

Transcript

[A]

Thank you for listening to the Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com. hello everyone, it's Tom Holland here. And I have teamed up with the great Mary Beard to bring you four episodes on what we together have decided are the four most iconic themes in ancient history. And today we are looking at Alexander the Great. Here's a short extract of that episode. No one was like him. Terrible were his crimes. But if you wish to blackguard the great king, think how mean, obscure and dull you are. Your labours lowly and your merits less. That was the great American poet Robert Lowell talking about Alexander the Great. Who is the theme of today's episode. I'm in conversation with the great Mary Beard. And Mary, I assume you would agree with Robert Lowell that, that Alexander's. Well, let's not call them crimes, but I mean, he spilled a lot of blood. He's a killer of men. But would you also acknowledge a sense that he is, I mean, almost a figure of myth, kind of terrifying and potent in a way beyond the mortal norm?

[B]

I was gonna say that. I thought you wrote that out just to annoy me, Tom. Really?

[A]

Oh, kind of. I wanted to get you in the mood for this.

[B]

You can't deny that Alexander the Great is worth looking at because so many people have, so many people have copied him. He's become such a. And a mythic figure, not just in Western civilization, but actually, you know, throughout the world.

[A]

Well, he appears in the Quran amazingly.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So the idea of me being sniffy, as I'm quite tempted to be, but I'm resisting it. The idea of being sniffy and saying, oh, I don't, you know, a young drunken butcher, that isn't good enough. You know, you. I think we do have to press at both the truth and the myth of Alexander the Great, actually.

[A]

But you wouldn't go so far as my esteemed colleague on the rest is history and offer Alexander the Great as a role model for little boys and girls that he suggests that they should follow their dreams.

[B]

I dread to think of the fate of this country if we start using Alexander the Great as a role model. I'm looking for someone who's got a kind of bit clearer idea of what cooperation and collaboration might be than we all got to follow our dreams like Alexander the Great.

[A]

Help. So why don't we begin basically by telling the story and then having Done that kind of open up questions about, well, was he great, how did he come to be seen as great? And actually kind of slightly like with our previous episode, to what extent are the stories that we tell about Alexander actually likely to be true? But to begin with, Alexander is born to Philip II of Macedon, which is, I mean, it's kind of like the Scotland to the, the England of classical Greece.

[B]

I think that's being generous to Macedon, actually. But you're right that Macedon was on the northern margins of what we call ancient Greece and until the reign of Philip ii, it wasn't much to write home about. So in fact its turning point comes in the reign of Alexander's dad. And there persist in being issues, you know, right up to now. But going back to the ancient world of whether we really thought, do we really think that Macedon is part of Greece or isn't it?

[A]

Because there's always kind of debate about whether the kings of Macedon should be allowed to compete in the Olympic Games, aren't there?

[B]

Yeah, that's absolutely right.

[A]

And also back in the 5th century, Macedon had been a part of the Persian empire, which is the great superpower of the day, had tried to conquer Greece and been flung back. And so the relationship of Macedon to Persia is also part of the story.

[B]

Yeah, I mean it's, there's. So it's kind of looking two ways. It's looking at what we would call Greece proper and it's also looking at Persia. And it, it's not making any great shakes until Philip ii from his capital at place called Pella, actually exerts more or less control, both diplomatically, politically and militarily over the Greek world. And clearly is already, and this is mid 4th century BCE is already beginning to think about what his relationship with Persia is going to be. I mean, you have to go back here in order to understand what on earth either Philip or later Alexander is trying to do in moving east to Persia. You have to go back to the idea that Persia is the dominant power in the east, which clashes famously in the 5th century, clashed in what we call the Persian wars with the Greek world. In the end, the Greeks, those that hadn't gone over to Persia, were victorious. But there is a sense that there's unfinished business. And it clearly is the case that somebody like Philip, while he's putting his thumb pretty firmly in his new found kind of military power, quite how that arises, I think a big mystery that he can leverage the Greek world by saying, and we're going to get vengeance on the Persian Empire.

[A]

And there are kind of two factors, perhaps, that would encourage someone in the Greek world to think that they could have a crack at Persia. And the first is the sense that perhaps Greek military manpower has the beating of Persian armies. So there's famous account written by the Athenian Xenophon, of a squad of Greek mercenaries who find themselves stranded in Mesopotamia and then are able to march all the way through the Persian Empire and get back home. So that seems exciting. But the other thing is a sense that rather than attacking the Persians, the great powers of the Greek world, Athens, Thebes, Sparta, are just tearing chunks out of each other, and that it needs a strong man, perhaps, to crack heads together and to say, come on, guys, let's go and attack the Persians.

[B]

And he doesn't manage to crack any Spartan heads together.

[A]

Always left that, aren't they?

[B]

And Thebes.

[A]

Yes. So Thebes, really, when Philip is a young man, is the great city state. Philip has gone there as a hostage, and it's kind of the cutting edge of military development in the Greek world. But when Philip becomes king, he has developed quite a kind of a formidable military apparatus, cavalry phalanxes with very, very long spears. I'm sure you'd love to talk about Macedonian spears, but, I mean, it's important that he has kind of developed military technology in a way that, as it turns out, has the beating of the Thebans and the Athenians and they win. The Macedonians win a great victory. A place called Chaeronea, outside Thebes. And this is where Alexander is very young. He's only 18, I think, and he commands the cavalry there. And Thebes and Athens are kind of brought to submit to Macedonian overlordship.

[B]

Athens does better than Thebes. Thebes. Thebes is well and truly thrashed. Athens is humiliated, or at least in the eyes of some, although there were others who were quite happy to go in with Philip ii. But I think what you say is interesting because there are backstories to all of this that, you know. Thebes has got a history with Philip II of Macedon. You know, the Greek world has got a history with the Persian Empire, and you can't really understand what's going on in the 4th century without seeing that old scores are being settled.

[A]

Yeah. So Philip is kind of. Basically, he's conquered Greece and he's gearing up to invade the Persian Empire, and then he gets assassinated. Alexander takes over and succeeds him as king. Can we just look at Alexander's upbringing as it is told by biographers and Historians writing very much later, famously, he is the son of a mother who has a thing about snakes, Olympias, Right.

[B]

And she is the most glamorous of Philip's wives and has some kind of religious affect with snakes. But one thing that's really unusual about Philip, and it may explain something behind the assassination we don't know, is that he has many wise. Macedonian monarchy is polygamous, and that provides you with a lot of potential heirs, but it provides a lot of rivalry at the same time. And so Olympias is not Macedonian, she's from Epirus, and Alexander is the son. But Philip subsequently marries one of the many women in the Greek world called Cleopatra, who.

[A]

So this is a theme, isn't it? Loads of people with the same name.

[B]

And she is bona fide Macedonian. And so you've clearly got in the idea when you're thinking of succession planning. Every monarch in the ancient world is always thinking of succession planning and never getting it right. It looks as if Olympias and Alexander are beginning to be worried that they're going to be sidestepped by sort of the true blood of the Macedonian race.

[A]

Thanks for listening. You can subscribe to the Rest Is history [e-mail] to hear the whole episode, to hear the whole series in due course, and to get our massive, insanely brilliant range of other benefits. Mary and I will be back next week and we'll be looking at the collapse of the Roman Republic and Julius Caesar.